The Metrics Brothers

Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike discuss the ICONIQ 2026 State of GTM Report, a 32-page benchmark study based on a January 2026 survey of 155+ B2B SaaS executives across CROs, CEOs, and RevOps leaders. The pair digs into what the data says about how high-growth companies go to market differently, how usage-based pricing is reshaping sales compensation, and where AI in the GTM stack is actually delivering results versus falling short. Topics Covered GTM Motion Mix: Top-Down vs. Bottom-Up vs. Hybrid. The data shows roughly 60% of companies use a hybrid motion, but high-growth companies skew more toward bottom-up and PLG. Ray and Dave unpack the ICONIQ "variable growth bar" definition and what the motion mix signals about the source of growth.Channel and Partnership Revenue Is Bigger Than Expected. ICONIQ reports channel partnerships representing 27-31% of revenue for high-growth companies. That is well above the 11-15% Ray typically sees in comparable reports. Dave calls it the long-awaited comeback of channel in SaaS, and both hosts flag the near-absence of self-serve as a surprise.Quota Setting and Commission Structures in a Usage-Based World. For the first time in a major GTM benchmark, ICONIQ covers how companies set quotas and structure commissions in a consumption and outcome-based pricing environment. 30% of respondents use forecasted consumption to set quota. Commission payout timing is split across four models, signaling how unsettled the go-to-market compensation playbook remains.Clawbacks Are Back. With usage-based and prepaid consumption models on the rise, 45-50% of companies now have clawback provisions in sales compensation. Ray and Dave discuss why clawbacks are a morale killer for sales teams and what the smarter alternative looks like in practice.POC and Free Trial Conversion Rates. POC-to-paid conversion improved from 36% to 50% year over year. Ray and Dave discuss resource allocation for proof-of-concepts, including dedicated versus shared solution architects, and raise the question of where forward-deployed engineers fit into the picture.AI in GTM: Where It Is and Isn't Working. Lead gen and call transcription top the adoption charts, but AI-driven forecasting sits at only 38%. Ray flags the gap between AI-native and traditional SaaS companies in GTM AI adoption. Dave points to slide 30 as a reality check: pipeline efficiency and unit economics are not yet showing meaningful improvement from AI investment. If you are responsible for GTM strategy, sales compensation, or measuring the ROI of AI investments, this episode gives you a practical lens on one of the best benchmark reports published in 2026. Ray and Dave go beyond summarizing the slides. Dave and Ray flag caveats in the methodology, challenge the data where it warrants scrutiny, and connect the findings to real-world operating decisions on quota design, commission structures, channel strategy, and AI adoption. If you only have time for one GTM benchmark deep-dive this year, this is the episode to start with. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" break down one of the oldest productivity metrics in business and explain why, in the age of AI-native software, it has never mattered more. This episode covers the full arc from Frederick Taylor's factory floors to Cursor's $3.3M per employee, with the rigorous definitional discipline the Metrics Brothers are known for. What We Cover: The metric's 100-year history. Revenue per employee traces its roots to scientific management in the late 1800s, gained traction as a Wall Street efficiency screen in the 80s and 90s, and became a standard signal of business model quality in M&A diligence. The core math is simple: annual revenue divided by headcount. What is not simple is how you define the denominator. FTE vs. employee: why the definition matters more than the formula. The E in FTE stands for full-time equivalent, not full-time employee, and that distinction drives real measurement decisions. How do you count a part-time contractor? What about 200 offshore developers on a third-party vendor's payroll? Ray and Dave walk through the practical choices, including why offshore headcount is almost never counted on a 1:1 basis and why that decision can dramatically change your benchmark comparison. Public SaaS companies in 2025: the benchmark is $395K. Using the Benchmarkit SaaS 100 index (134 public SaaS companies), the median revenue per employee in 2025 is $395K, up from $327K in 2022, a 21% improvement in three years. ARR per FTE runs about 5-7% higher at $413K. The shift reflects the industry's move from growth-at-all-costs to efficient revenue growth. Private SaaS companies: size matters. ARR per employee scales materially with company size. At the $5-20M ARR stage, the median is $144K. By $100M+ ARR, the median reaches $300K. The recurring-revenue tailwind from a large renewal base is a significant driver as companies scale. AI-native companies have reset the benchmark entirely. Where the historical range for enterprise software was $200-400K per employee, AI-native companies operate at a fundamentally different level. Cursor reached $1.67M per employee at 60 people, and now runs at $3.3M per employee at 300 people. Midjourney is at $4.7M. Anthropic is in the $3-5M range on a run-rate basis. This is not a modest improvement over traditional SaaS. It is a 10x shift. One important caution on the AI numbers. Many of the figures being cited by AI-native companies are monthly run-rate revenue annualized (last month times 12), not trailing 12-month GAAP revenue. When growth is compounding fast, that distinction can dramatically inflate the productivity figure. The Metrics Brothers flag this as a meaningful source of confusion in how the benchmark is being discussed today. The AI tailwind may be temporary, at least in part. Current customer acquisition friction for AI software is unusually low, given experimentation budgets and departmental purchasing. As enterprise procurement tightens (74% of enterprise AI purchases now involve IT), GTM investment will likely increase, and revenue per employee for AI-native companies may stabilize or compress. Ray and Dave estimate that steady-state productivity is more likely to be in the 3-5x range over traditional SaaS, not 10x. Revenue will replace ARR as the standard numerator. The rise of usage-based and hybrid pricing is rendering ARR less meaningful for a growing share of companies. Snowflake, Datadog, and MongoDB do not report ARR. As AI-native pricing models proliferate, Ray and Dave expect the industry to converge on revenue as the standard numerator across productivity benchmarks. What about revenue per agent? Ray raises the forward-looking question: as AI agents take on SDR, sales, and other GTM functions, how do we measure agent productivity? Dave's take is that "revenue per agent" is likely a dead end, partly because agent instances are nearly impossible to count and partly because the right way to price and measure agents is to decompose their capabilities, not to anthropomorphize them as headcount equivalents. The Bottom Line: Revenue per employee is a deceptively simple metric with genuinely complex definitional choices underneath it. For B2B SaaS executives, the 2025 benchmarks are $395K (public) and $144-300K (private, depending on scale). For AI-native companies, the numbers are in a different category entirely, though some of that gap reflects accounting choices as much as true productivity gains. The metric is worth tracking closely, both as a board-level efficiency signal and as a leading indicator of business model quality. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

One word can reveal a lot about someone's analytical depth, and on this episode of The Metrics Brothers, Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike break down one of the most commonly misused pair of terms in metrics analysis: segments and cohorts. Dave shares what sparked this topic, a Norwest benchmark report that used the word "cohort" when it clearly meant "segment," and explains why the mix-up matters far more than a simple vocabulary error. In this episode, Ray and Dave cover: Segments vs. Cohorts Defined: A segment is a slice of data defined by a shared attribute such as company size, vertical, or deal size. A cohort is a group anchored to a shared event and tracked over time, such as all opportunities created in Q1 or all customers acquired in a given year. The two are orthogonal concepts, not synonyms, and confusing them can signal a lack of the numerical fluency that sharp operators and investors expect Snapshot vs. Cohort Analysis: Standard dashboard win rates are fast and stable, but they only capture what crossed the finish line in a given period with no visibility into where those deals came from or how long they were in the pipeline. Cohort analysis rides along with a group of opportunities from creation to resolution, revealing how process and personnel changes actually affect outcomes over time Win Rates and Pipeline Coverage: Ray walks through a real example where cohort-based win rate analysis exposed a breakdown in discovery quality after a Q3 process change, something a standard dashboard completely masked. Dave explains why pipeline coverage goals should not simply be calculated as the inverse of a snapshot-based win rate, and how close rate (a cohort-based metric) gives a more accurate picture of both yield and timing NRR, GRR, and Customer Expansion: Dave makes the case that tracking ARR by customer acquisition cohort over time is far more predictive of long-term retention and expansion behavior than NRR alone, which only looks back one year. Ray adds how cohort analysis helped him identify a high-value expansion window between months 18 and 30 of the customer lifecycle, enabling smarter allocation of sales resources towards existing customers Combining Both for Maximum Insight: The most powerful approach is a segmented cohort analysis, tracking time-based behavior across meaningful attribute-based cuts of your customer or pipeline data. Segments tell you what kind of customer. Cohorts tell you what happened over time. Together, they tell the full story. If you use metrics to help inform decisions in your company, and have a goal to help build a culture of numeracy in your company, this is a great listen! See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

The Metrics Brothers, Dave Kellogg and Ray Rike open with their introductory bit, which this week included Statler and Waldorf, the grumpy old men in the balcony from the Muppets, before diving into a thorough review of the Norwest B2B Sales and Marketing Benchmark Report, a102-page study published in November 2025, that included 177 participants (77 Norwest portfolio, 100 third-party VC/PE-backed). Key Topics Covered: Overall Report Assessment: Praised for its breadth, year-over-year trend data, and even split of marketing (40%), sales (42%), and combined (18%) respondents Marketing Budgets: Smaller companies ($5M–$15M ARR) saw dramatic budget cuts — down from $3.3M to $825K, nearly a 75% decrease Top GTM Challenges in 2025: #1: Positioning product as a "must have" — 44%, up 6% YoY Revenue Re-Forecasting: 66% of respondents changed their revenue plan mid-year; 43% increased it (down from 48% prior year), while 23% decreased (up from 18%) Renewals Ownership Shift: Customer Success owned renewals 56% of the time in 2023 — now just 29% in 2025 MQL Scoring Model Collapse: Use of formal scoring models (demographic fit + engagement) Top Marketing KPIs: #1: Dollar value of opportunities (pipeline) was number one metric at 56% CAC & Cost-Per-Lead Awareness - The "Bonus" Topic: 45% of respondents didn't know their CAC; 41% didn't know their cost per lead Closing Recommendations: Both hosts recommend reading the report, including pages 80–98 covering AI adoption in sales and marketing, that they were not able to cover in this episode If you are a GTM executive leading a software company or the CFO responsible for driving revenue growth and profitability - this episode and the associated report is a great source of insights! See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

For more than a decade, the Rule of 40 has been the gold standard for measuring SaaS performance: Growth Rate + Profit Margin ≥ 40 But in today’s environment of higher interest rates, multiple compression, private equity leverage, and AI-driven cost pressures, that benchmark may no longer be enough. In this episode of the Metrics Brothers, Ray “Growth” Rike and Dave “CAC” Kellogg explore why many investors and operators are now targeting something far more ambitious: The Rule of 60. Dave walks through the history of SaaS economics, from the growth-at-all-costs era, to the rise of balanced metrics after 2015, to the capital reset that began in 2022. The discussion then shifts to the math driving today’s expectations: if private equity firms buy companies at high multiples but must sell them later at lower multiples, Rule-of-40 performance simply doesn’t always generate acceptable returns. In many leveraged SaaS deals today, hitting Rule of 60 can be the difference between a 1.1x return and a 3x outcome. Ray and Dave also dig into how the Rule of 40 is evolving in practice, including: Why growth still matters far more than margin in valuation modelsHow companies organically converged on the “20/20” Rule-of-40 profileWhy PE investors increasingly expect Rule-of-60 performanceThe impact of debt service, CAC inflation, and AI cost structuresWhy achieving Rule of 60 often requires radical operational changes The takeaway: this isn’t a temporary metric trend. For many SaaS companies, the math of modern software investing now demands it. One interesting comment that reflects the reality of the Rule of 60, especially for companies that have been funded with leverage debt is: “This isn’t a fad. The math of the deal breaks without it.” See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

In this episode, Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike go point-counterpoint on two high-profile articles making waves across Wall Street and Silicon Valley: Citrini's provocative February 2025 report, The 2028 Global Intelligence Crisis, and Citadel's rebuttal, The 2026 Global Intelligence Crisis. Dave and Ray unpack whether AI is truly triggering an unprecedented economic collapse or whether Citrini's dark simulation is, as one economist put it, just "a scary bedtime story." They dig into the SaaS private credit contagion theory, the historic parallels of labor displacement, the role of government regulation, and why this particular AI scare hits closer to home than any previous tech disruption. As always, the brothers bring the receipts, including nearly 20 sources and 20 hours of research - so you don't have to. Full Episode Summary: Dave Kellogg and Ray Rike open by framing the episode as a tale of two AI futures: Citrini's alarming speculative simulation versus Citadel's data-driven rebuttal. The Citrini Case (Bear Case): Published February 22nd, Citrini's report simulates a scenario in which rapid AI agent adoption triggers a global intelligence crisis by mid-2028 featuring 10.2% unemployment and a 38% drop in the S&P 500. The report argues AI is categorically different from prior technology waves because it displaces cognitive workers, who represent roughly 75% of U.S. labor income. Citrini further warns that SaaS, already accounting for 23% - 25% of the $3 trillion U.S. private credit market could become the chip in the windshield that cracks the broader financial system, with ripple effects into insurance and the broader economy. Dave and Ray note that Citrini's word choices ran 3.4-to-1 negative, and flag that the firm may hold short positions — characterizing the piece as well-crafted "bear porn." The Citadel Rebuttal (Bull Case): Two days later, Citadel, a $65B AUM asset manager with 35 years of credibility responded with a data-driven defense. Software engineering jobs are up since January 2024, AI CapEx is 2% of GDP and AI-adjacent commodity pricing is up 65%. Citadel argues AI follows historical S-curve adoption patterns, that "recursive capability doesn't equal recursive adoption," and that technology has always complemented rather than replaced labor - pointing to Microsoft Office as a historical analogue. Dave and Ray's Take: Both hosts find Citadel more credible, but acknowledge real displacement risks ahead. Their key insight: the reason this particular AI scare is generating 10x more fear than past labor disruptions (auto workers, telephone operators, elevator operators) is that this time it's us — white-collar knowledge workers facing displacement. Ray adds that blue-collar jobs (truck drivers, Uber drivers, warehouse workers) face equal or greater long-term risk from AI plus robotics, but those disruptions don't generate the same visceral fear in the media and investor class. Both agree the timing of adoption is the biggest unknown. Long-term, history favors the Citadel view. Short-term, the transition could be painful. On Government Response: Dave and Ray agree that political and regulatory intervention is inevitable if unemployment spikes materially, whether through labor protections, AI regulation, or fiscal stimulus. On Economists' Reactions: Real economists, including Noah Smith (Noahpinion) and Wharton's Jeremy Siegel, largely dismissed the Citrini piece, wi Siegel arguing that productivity gains generate new income and demand, Smith calling it a "scary bedtime story." Dave's takeaway for operators: let the Metrics Brothers do the 20 hours of reading so you don't have to. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

In this episode, the Metrics Brothers, Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike dive deep into the ICONIQ State of AI: Bi-Annual Snapshot Report. Published in January 2026, this 44-page report summarizes insights from ~300 software executives on the front lines of building and scaling AI products. Ray and Dave explore a market transition from experimental model races to the challenge of building durable, economically sound products. Key discussions in this episode include: Differentiation Beyond the Model: Why 69% of builders are focusing on vertical AI applications and why 49% cite the application layer (UX and workflows) as their primary competitive edge over the underlying model. The Gross Margin "U-Curve": A look at the shifting economics of AI, where aggregated gross margins are projected to climb to 52% by 2026, even as inference and infrastructure costs remain significant hurdles. Pricing Evolution: The rise of outcome and usage-based pricing, with only 23% of companies still relying on seat-based models as customer demand shifts toward value-aligned monetization. AI as an Internal Force Multiplier: How R&D teams are leading internal adoption, with 83% of companies now measuring success through productivity gains and 59% through direct cost savings. Whether you are a CEO or CFO navigating AI product gross margin concerns or a GTM leader rethinking your proof-of-concept strategy, this episode provides the benchmarks you need to understand the "new phase of maturity" in the AI market. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

In this extended episode, the Metrics Brothers tackle the "elephant in the room" - the SaaSpocalypse. With nearly $1 trillion in market value wiped out recently, Ray and Dave go beyond the stock market headlines to analyze the structural shifts hitting the industry. The duo breaks down the three primary drivers of the current market "carnage", including the AI Fear of Being Obsolete (FOBO), Regression to the Mean for SaaS stocks and Changing Valuation Methodologies, before diving into the newly released Aviner report, The Future of SaaS: A Fork in the Road. Using Aviner’s "Red Pill vs. Blue Pill" metaphor, they debate whether SaaS companies must fundamentally pivot to "agentic" systems or accept maturity and financialize by focusing on profitability. Covered in This Episode: The SaaSpocalypse Explained: Why the stock market is currently a "rugby scrum of information" and why stock price is a measure of future expectations rather than current health ServiceNow as a Bellwether: An analysis of how a "Rule of 56" company can beat expectations and still see a 30% stock drop in a single month. FOBO (Fear of Being Obsolete): How the "revenge of build vs. buy" and the collapsing cost of coding are demoting traditional SaaS apps to mere systems of record. The Aviner Report Breakdown: Part 1: The hard data on slowing revenue growth (cut from 40% to 20%) and the "aberration" of 2019–2021 multiples.Part 2: The binary choice between embracing AI "Systems of Context" or financializing for net income. The "Architect Strategy": Ray’s argument for a third path where SaaS companies coexist with AI by providing the governance and orchestration layer Buyer Sentiment vs. Market Narrative: Why 63% of software buyers believe existing vendors will be the beneficiaries of AI, contradicting the current "SaaS is dead" stock market trend. Key Metrics & Concepts Mentioned Rule of 40 vs. Rule of 60: How the standard for SaaS health is shiftingStock-Based Compensation (SBC): Why excluding this from profitability metrics is no longer passing the "financialization" testThe Three-Layer Taxonomy: Systems of Record, Systems of Engagement, and Systems of ContextMultiple Compression: The shift from 15x revenue multiples back to the historical 5x mean Resources Mentioned Report: The Future of SaaS: A Fork in the Road by Aviner Growth (Jan 2026).Book: The Reckoning by David Halberstam.Book: Profit Pools by Orit Gadiesh and James L. Gilbert. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

In this episode of the Metrics Brothers podcast, Ray Rike and Dave Kellogg tackle one of the most critical yet misunderstood metrics in the U.S. economy: Labor Productivity. Amidst the rapid rise of Artificial Intelligence, the "Metrics Brothers" break down how productivity is officially measured by the Bureau of Labor Statistics and why historical technology booms, from SaaS to Cloud, haven't always moved productivity growth as much as expected. Key Takeaways: A deep dive into the ratio of economic output per hour worked, including what the BLS excludes (farms and government) and the nuances of white-collar labor tracking. Historical Trends: A comparison of the post-war boom versus the "SaaS era," exploring why the last 20 years have seen a 66% relative decrease in productivity growth despite trillions in tech investment.The AI Impact: Three potential scenarios for the future of work, from "exploding output" to "labor displacement," and why AI might fundamentally remake work in ways the Cloud never did.Global Benchmarking: How the U.S. stacks up against leaders like Ireland and Norway in output per hour. Why Listen? Whether you are a SaaS leader, investor, or white-collar professional, this episode provides a roadmap for staying on the "right side of the divide" in the upcoming AI-driven economic shift. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Brand is one of the most powerful assets a company can build and one of the hardest to measure. In this episode of The Metrics Brothers, Dave “CAC” Kellogg, and Ray "Growth" Rike take on one of marketing’s most persistent challenges: how to measure brand in a world obsessed with direct attribution and near-term ROI. The conversation starts with what a brand really is, originating from literal marks of ownership and evolving into a promise of quality, trust, and differentiation. From there, Ray and Dave explore why strong brands create pricing power, customer loyalty, category leadership, and long-term defensibility, even if those benefits do not always show up cleanly in dashboards. They then break down practical ways to measure brand that align marketing and finance perspectives, including indirect valuation approaches such as brand value and goodwill frameworks, along with comparative metrics like direct and branded web traffic, share of voice, share of search, and inbound pipeline contribution. The episode also covers market research fundamentals including awareness, consideration, trial, and repurchase, and why dedicating a portion of your marketing budget to measurement is essential to sustaining brand investment. Finally, the Metrics Brothers dig into brand measurement techniques that work in practice, including self-reported attribution, lift experiments, and analyzing sales conversations to see how brand shows up late in the buying process, often at the exact moment a deal is won. If you have ever struggled to align brand investment with measurable outcomes, justify brand spend alongside demand generation, or connect long-term brand building to real business results, this episode provides a grounded, metrics-driven framework for doing exactly that. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

The State of Generative AI in the Enterprise 2025 In this episode of The Metrics Brothers, Ray Rike and Dave Kellogg break down the 2025 State of Generative AI in the Enterprise report from Menlo Ventures and explain what the data really says about where enterprise AI adoption is accelerating and where the market is consolidating. The headline takeaway: AI software is scaling faster than any software category in history. Enterprise AI spend has exploded from roughly $1.7B in 2023 to nearly $37B in 2025, reaching scale in just three years. This revenue milestone took SaaS more than 15 years to achieve. Foundational models now represent the single largest area of spend, highlighting how infrastructure and model access remain core to enterprise AI strategies. Ray and Dave also explore a major strategic shift inside the enterprise: buy is decisively beating build. In 2025, 76% of enterprise AI solutions are purchased rather than built internally, up sharply from 53% the year prior. Rapid model evolution, ongoing retraining costs, and model drift are making internal AI development far more expensive to maintain than many teams originally expected. One of the most surprising findings is on go-to-market efficiency. AI software pilots convert to production at nearly twice the rate of traditional software, with roughly 47% of AI pilots reaching production versus about 25% for conventional enterprise software. This runs counter to recent narratives suggesting enterprise AI pilots are stalling and points to clearer ROI and faster time-to-value. The episode also dives into what Menlo calls the first true “AI killer app”: AI-assisted coding. Coding tools now account for more than half of departmental AI spend, with over 50% of developers already using AI coding assistants and adoption exceeding 65% among top-quartile teams. Real-world examples show meaningful productivity gains, including double-digit increases in development velocity and significant time savings during legacy system upgrades. Industry-wise, healthcare emerges as the largest buyer of vertical AI, representing 43% of vertical AI spend. This is notable given healthcare’s historically lower IT spend as a percentage of revenue. Much of the value is coming from administrative automation such as medical scribing, where AI directly reduces non-clinical workload and unlocks meaningful productivity gains for care providers. Finally, Ray and Dave examine the shifting competitive landscape among foundation model providers. Anthropic has surged to roughly 40% share of enterprise AI usage, up dramatically from prior years, while OpenAI’s share has declined as Google continues to gain traction. The discussion centers on focus versus breadth and why enterprise positioning and reliability may matter more than consumer mindshare. Key takeaways from the episode: AI software is the fastest-scaling software category everEnterprises are rapidly moving from build to buyAI pilots convert to production at nearly 2x traditional softwareAI coding is emerging as the first true enterprise AI killer appAnthropic’s enterprise focus is translating into meaningful market share gains If you care about how AI adoption actually translates into spend, productivity, and competitive advantage inside large organizations, this episode is a must-listen. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

The claim that “95% of AI projects fail” has become one of the most repeated talking points in enterprise AI. But where did it come from, and does it actually hold up? In this episode, Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike take a detailed, data-driven look at the MIT NANDA report, titled The GenAI Divide: State of AI in Business 2025. They break down how the "95% fail rate" statistic went viral, why it stuck, and why the underlying evidence does not support such a sweeping conclusion. What Ray and Dave cover: Why the NANDA report is often mistaken for a peer-reviewed academic study when it is notHow ambiguous definitions of “failure” turn partial adoption into sensational headlinesData inconsistencies and methodological gaps that undermine the 95% claimThe difference between failed AI initiatives and early-stage pilots or experimentsWhy measuring AI success by the percent of projects is misleading compared to the business value createdThe rise of Shadow AI and employee-driven adoption, and why that may be a feature, not a flawHow the report’s conclusions conveniently align with the authors’ proposed NANDA architectureThe real issues enterprises face with AI: workflow integration, governance, and change management The episode also discusses why personal productivity gains still matter to the P&L, even if they do not appear as a clear line item, and why fear-driven AI narratives can do real damage within organizations. Key takeaway: The NANDA report raises some legitimate concerns about scaling AI from pilot to production, but the infamous “95% of AI projects fail” claim does not survive close inspection. Leaders should read the report skeptically and push back when flawed statistics begin to drive decisions and strategy. Recommended for: CFOs, operators, AI leaders, and anyone tired of scary AI statistics that fall apart under scrutiny. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Brand vs Demand: Why B2B Marketing Is Stuck in a Measurement Trap In this episode of The Metrics Brothers, Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike tackle one of the most persistent and controversial questions in B2B marketing: Brand vs. Demand. The discussion is grounded in new data from the 2026 B2B Brand vs Demand Benchmark Report. While most marketing teams say they believe brand and demand are complementary, the numbers tell a more complicated story. Today’s reality? Marketing budgets are still heavily skewed toward short-term demand generation, with roughly 70% of spend allocated to demand and only ~25% to brand. Yet when asked how they want to invest, marketing leaders overwhelmingly say they’d prefer a much more balanced future, closer to 50% demand and 40% brand. So why the disconnect? Ray and Dave dig into the root cause: measurement. Demand generation is tied to metrics CFOs understand like pipeline dollars, opportunities, and ARR. Brand, on the other hand, is still largely measured using proxy metrics like website traffic and awareness, leaving many executives unable to confidently link brand investments to revenue outcomes. Only 28% of companies say they can directly tie brand activity to pipeline, and when budgets are cut, brand is sacrificed five times more often than demand. The episode also explores: Why performance marketing struggles are pushing CMOs back toward brandThe growing inefficiency of demand spend aimed at “future buyers”How much of the “demand” budget is effectively unmeasured brand spendThe dangerous gap between belief in brand and proof of impactWhy AEO, AI search, and LLM visibility will make brand ROI even harder and more urgent to measure Ray and Dave don’t just highlight the findings, they discuss the reality of Chief Marketing Officers making the Brand vs Demand budget allocation trade-offs. One key takeaway? Until brand investments can be credibly connected to pipeline efficiency, win rates, and ARR, it will remain more a faith-based investment instead of a financial one the CFOs understand. If you’re a CMO trying to defend brand spend, or a CFO trying to understand where marketing dollars truly drive growth, this episode is required listening. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

In this episode of The Metrics Brothers, Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike break down the 2025 Tidemark Vertical & SMB SaaS Benchmark Report. Drawing from data across 200+ companies, the report explores control points, multi-product expansion, fintech monetization, and AI adoption, but not all conclusions hold up under scrutiny as they are sometimes take on the tone of a narrative summary rather than insights purely from data-backed research. Ray and Dave dig into what the data actually supports versus where narrative may be running ahead of evidence. They unpack the concept of “control points,” examine why fintech (especially payments) continues to dominate expansion strategies, and challenge whether multi-product really delivers the retention and growth advantages many assume. Along the way, they highlight where benchmarks are useful, where definitions blur, and why context matters more than ever. The episode also explores the rapid rise of AI inside Vertical SaaS, from attach rates to monetization models and asks the hard question: "Does AI actually drive better performance, or is it simply becoming table stakes?" If you’re building, investing in, or operating a vertical SaaS business, this episode helps separate signal from story. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

In this episode of The Metrics Brothers, Ray Rike and Dave Kellogg unpack Benedict Evans’ latest landmark presentation, AI Eats the World, and explore why this moment may rival or even surpass the original “software is eating the world” era. Drawing parallels to Marc Andreessen’s 2011 thesis, they examine how AI is no longer just another platform shift, but a force capable of reshaping labor, capital allocation, and entire industries at once. The conversation spans the explosive rise in AI infrastructure spending, from hyperscaler capex surging past $400B to the growing strain on power, compute, and supply chains. Ray and Dave discuss why this moment feels different from past tech cycles, not just because of scale, but because AI directly targets labor, which represents more than half of global GDP. They explore whether AI is creating real moats or accelerating commoditization, and why many enterprises are still stuck in experimentation rather than true deployment. The episode also dives into historical parallels from elevators and telephone operators to cloud computing highlighting how software enabled automation always feels threatening before it quietly becomes invisible. Along the way, they unpack the strategic tension facing AI leaders: go down the stack for scale or up the stack for value capture. With insights on hyperscalers, OpenAI, Oracle, and the economics of AI adoption, this episode challenges leaders to rethink how value will actually be created and captured in the age of AI. If you want to understand what’s hype, what’s durable, and why “AI eating the world” may be the most consequential shift since the internet itself, this episode is a must-listen. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

In this episode of The Metrics Brothers, hosts Ray “Growth” Rike and Dave “CAC” Kellogg provide a critical deep dive into the 2025 SaaS Benchmark Report published by High Alpha. Known for their analytical, and sometimes "crusty" approach, the metrics brothers dissect the data behind 800+ SaaS companies to separate real market trends from report commentary. Key Highlights & Benchmarks The brothers break down the report’s most significant findings with their signature skepticism regarding "correlation vs. causation." The AI Growth Premium: Companies with AI at their core are growing significantly faster than those using AI as a supporting feature. For instance, in the $1–5M ARR band, AI-core companies achieved a median growth of 110%, compared to 40% for their peers The "Lean Team" Era: Efficiency is surging as headcount falls. Median revenue per employee has jumped to $129K–$173K, with top-tier public companies hitting over $283K. The hosts note that engineering and support have seen the largest headcount reductions due to AI automation Venture Rebound (with a Caveat): While quarterly VC deal value has returned to near 2021 levels (~$80B), the capital is highly concentrated. Over half of all VC funding is currently flowing into AI startups, often in massive "mega-rounds." In-Office vs. Remote: For the second consecutive year, the data suggests that in-office or hybrid teams are growing faster (42% median) than fully remote teams (31% median). As always, Ray and Dave offer practical advice for founders and GTM leaders: "Read the data, but watch out for the commentary." While the data is good, some commentary and conclusions in the report imply causation where there is at best some level of correlation, such as why companies stay private longer or how AI "drives" growth. Retention is King: The strongest growth outcomes are found where high Net Revenue Retention (NRR) meets short CAC payback periods.Outcome-Based Pricing: The brothers highlight the shift toward outcome-based and hybrid pricing models as a primary driver for best-in-class NRR in 2025. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

In this episode of The Metrics Brothers, Ray “Growth” Rike and Dave “CAC” Kellogg take on one of the biggest challenges facing modern SaaS and AI-Native companies: how to measure NRR and expansion when pricing isn’t fixed anymore. With the rise of usage-based, user-based-but-variable, and outcome-based pricing, the traditional world of ARR - long the backbone of SaaS metrics has been turned on its head. Contracts no longer tell the story. Spend does. Dave breaks down how to rethink ARR proxies using quarterly or monthly revenue (“implied ARR”) and why longer intervals help smooth volatility, especially for “humpback” or highly seasonal customers whose spend fluctuates dramatically month-to-month. Ray digs into what NRR was originally designed to measure and why many teams misinterpret it—especially in variable-pricing environments where a backward-looking metric can’t serve as a forward-looking forecast. The brothers explain why sequential expansion, usage behavior, and real spend patterns now matter far more than traditional ARR bridges. Key topics include: Why ARR no longer maps cleanly to revenue in a variable pricing worldHow to calculate implied ARR using quarterly or monthly software revenueWhy NRR must be interpreted differently—and why survivor bias still mattersHow volatility and seasonality distort short-interval metricsWhy usage is the real leading indicator, not invoicesHow to rethink “expansion ARR” when base + variable spend changes continuously Packed with examples, including sinusoidal customers, misleading GRR math, and the dangers of splitting base versus variable revenue, this episode gives operators and investors a practical framework for measuring customer growth when pricing is anything but predictable. A must-listen for CFOs, RevOps leaders, and anyone trying to modernize SaaS metrics for the AI era. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

In this episode, "The Metrics Brothers," Growth (Ray Rike) and CAC (Dave Kellogg), dive into a critical challenge for modern SaaS and AI-Native companies: accurately calculating Net Revenue Retention (NRR) in environments that utilize variable pricing models (usage-based, outcome-based, etc.). They begin by defining NRR, emphasizing its importance as a key metric and its high correlation with Enterprise Value-to-Revenue multiples. The brothers then dissect the primary challenge: the absence of traditional Annual Recurring Revenue (ARR) in non-annual contract models. They explore different proxies for ARR, including MRR x 12 and Implied ARR (Quarterly Revenue x 4), and discuss the pitfalls of each, particularly the risk of overstating annual revenue due to seasonality or significant one-time deals. Finally, they offer their preferred, cohort-based method for calculating NRR—the "Snowflake Method" or "Two-Year Look Back"—which compares the current revenue of a specific group of customers (cohort) to their revenue from a year ago. They conclude with a discussion on how this method helps dampen the "noise" and variability inherent in usage-based data when trying to measure expansion and contraction. 📊 Key Takeaways & Discussion Points NRR Definition & Importance: NRR measures how much recurring revenue you retain and expand from your existing customer base over a period, factoring in upsells, cross-sells, downgrades, and churn. It's a top-tier metric for investors, correlating highly with enterprise valuation.The ARR Proxy Problem: In usage-based and outcome-based models, true ARR (based on annual contracts) doesn't exist, requiring the use of proxiesMRR x 12 and Implied ARR (Q4 Revenue x 4) are common but suffer from issues like seasonality or the timing of large deals, often leading to an overstatement of forward-looking revenue.Trailing Spend is presented as the most reliable underlying truth, as it reflects the actual usage and revenue generated by the customer.Best Practice: The Cohort Method for NRR:The recommended approach is a cohort-based calculation that eliminates the need to rely on potentially flawed ARR proxies.The Calculation: Take a specific cohort of customers who existed one year ago (e.g., all customers as of December 31, 2024). Divide their revenue today (December 31, 2025) by their revenue one year ago.The Two-Year Look Back Method (Snowflake): This method is "self-correcting" as it naturally excludes new customer revenue, ensuring the NRR accurately reflects only the existing customer base.Dealing with Usage-Based Variability (Noise): Variable usage can lead to "noise" in quarterly expansion/contraction metrics. Using a trailing 12-month period (year-over-year) for the NRR calculation is safer than a quarterly view, as it dampens this volatility and provides a clearer signal of long-term customer value. If you are responsible or measured on NRR in a variable pricing model environment, this episode is a great listen to understand the pitfalls and best practices of calculating Net Revenue Retenion. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

For their 100th episode, Ray "Growth" Rike and Dave "CAC" Kellogg get philosophical, inspired by the notion that many hold, which is "nothing works" in B2B GTM anymore - especially in regards to pipeline development. They dive into the 2025 State of B2B GTM Report by Kyle Poyar and Maja Voijc to challenge this idea and find out what GTM leaders are actually prioritizing. In this episode, The Metrics Brothers break down: The State of the Market: Analyzing a survey of 195 GTM leaders, including data on small companies, growth rates, and the surprising lack of correlation between GTM motion and growth. The "Pipeline Crisis": Discussing why scaling existing GTM motions is the number one priority, even when many GTM leaders feel their current efforts aren't effective. Too Much Noise: A look at the "distraction chart" [slide 12] showing the staggering number of channels and strategies B2B companies are trying, and why the report suggests this is "too much". The Tried and True GTM Quadrant: Highlighting the activities with the biggest likelihood of impact, including Intimate Events, Intent-Based Inbound, and LinkedIn [slide 13]. The Winner Take All Future: Exploring the massive trend of investing in Answer Engine Optimization (AEO) [slide 18] and breaking down tactical recommendations for optimizing for ChatGPT and other answer engines, emphasizing the importance of facts and platforms like Reddit and G2 [slide 19]. Must Try GTM Tools: Reviewing the next generation of GTM tools, with a focus on cutting-edge platforms like Clay, Lovable, Sora, and Replit for data automation, outbound, and video generation [slide 29]. Whether you're a Founder, CMO, CRO or GTM leader, this episode offers a data-driven look at where to focus your budget and attention in the year ahead. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

In this episode of The Metrics Brothers, Ray “Growth” Rike and Dave “CAC” Kellogg break down one of the emerging metrics in the Agentic AI era: Containment Rate - the percentage of tasks an AI agent completes (resolves) end-to-end without human intervention. They explore multiple aspects of the Containment Rate Metric including: How containment rate differs from classic chatbot metric - deflection rateWhy defining “resolved” and/or "completed" is essential to calculating containment rateHow the metric connects directly to ROIWhy ROI needs to include both the benefit (cost-savings) and the investment (expense) for the AI Agent Ray and Dave also trace the history of containment from IVR to Chatbots to LLM-powered agents, debate common misconceptions, and outline benchmarks across customer support, IT, HR, and back-office agentic AI workflows. If you’re building, buying, or benchmarking AI agents - or trying to turn AI investments into measurable ROI — this episode delivers the context, clarity, and humor only The Metrics Brothers can provide. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Air Street Capital’s Nathan Benaich just dropped the 2025 State of AI Report — a 313-page tour de force on where artificial intelligence is today and where it’s headed next. In this episode, Dave “CAC” Kellogg and Ray “Growth” Rike break down the highlights, surprises, and bold predictions shaping the future of AI, software, and the global economy. They explore: Why this report is becoming the “Mary Meeker Internet Report” of the AI eraKey insights across research breakthroughs, model performance, geopolitics, enterprise adoption, and market maturityThe Top 10 Predictions that could define the next 12 months — from AI agents running $5B in ad spend to the first UN emergency debate on AI security Predictions discussed include: Retailers generating 5%+ of online sales via agentic checkoutOpen-sourcing frontier models to win government favorAI-driven scientific discoveries completed end-to-end by autonomous agentsDeepfake or agent-led cyberattacks prompting NATO-level actionA real-time generative video game dominating Twitch“AI neutrality” emerging as a new foreign policy doctrineAI-produced films earning major audience praise (and backlash)A Chinese lab surpassing U.S. AI leadershipDatacenter NIMBYism shaping local electionsAnd even AI entering U.S. presidential politics through executive orders and court battles If you work in B2B software, this episode is your roadmap to how AI is transforming not just technology — but business models, economics, and the balance of global power. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

AI Agents (also known as Agentic AI) are quickly becoming one of the most talked-about ways for enterprises to operationalize generative AI. G2 recently released a new research report — “A Leap of Trust: AI Agents Are Winning Hearts and Wallets” — highlighting where adoption is happening and why. In this episode, Dave “CAC” Kellogg and Ray “Growth” Rike break down the report’s findings and what they mean for business leaders evaluating AI strategies today, including: How efficiency and effectiveness gains translate into real business outcomesThe connection between Parkinson’s Law and AI Agent scalingWhich industries are leading AI Agent adoptionThe top use cases emerging across the enterpriseWhy Time to Value may be faster than expectedContainment Rate — the new metric that mattersAnd whether AI Agents accelerate a return to IT-centric projects If you're evaluating how to bring Generative AI into your organization — including whether to deploy packaged AI applications or pursue an agentic approach — this conversation is full of practical insights and thought-provoking perspectives you won’t want to miss. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

The buzz about ROI from AI software investments is palpable, so Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike take on the topic of measuring Return on Investment on AI software investments. During today's episode, Dave and Ray discuss the details on measuring ROI including: Defining Return on InvestmentSoft vs Hard BenefitsProductivity - the primary benefit of AI investments todayBuy versus Build & Run - an old problem is new againROI models need to go beyond payback periodLook back reviews - the value vs the reality Return on Investment (ROI) is not a new term - but one that is coming back into favor thanks to AI. If you are considering making or continuing an investment in AI software and project for your organization - this episode has something of value for you! See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

9-9-6. A term to describe the work culture of working 9AM - 9PM six days a week. This term is most often associated with those founders, companies, and their employees that work in generational software opportunities - such as we see right now with AI Software. Dave and Ray discuss 9-9-6 from multiple angles in today's episode including: What 9-9-6 isWhere did it originateWhy is it trendingThe importance of Winning in the early stage of a new software eraGeoffrey Moore's segmentation of new enterprise software markets (Gorillas, Chimps and Monkeys)Historic examples of those companies that became category leaderWhy the grind is not the point - Winning isWhy the choice of entering a 9-9-6 environment makes choosing the company even more important If you are currently in an early-stage AI-Native software company or considering making the move - this episode is a must listen! See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

The Forward-Deployed Engineer (FDE) represents a fundamental reimagining of the technical role in high-stakes enterprise environments. At its core, an FDE is a software engineer embedded directly with customers to solve their most complex—and often ambiguous—problems. Palantir is widely credited as the originator and early adopter of the FDE model, initially referring to these engineers as “Deltas.” In this episode, Dave “CAC” Kellogg and Ray “Growth” Rike explore multiple dimensions of the Forward-Deployed Engineer role, including: The origin of the FDEHow the military influenced the termWhether the FDE belongs in a technology-enabled services company or a software companyHow an FDE differs from a traditional technical services consultantWhere FDE expenses should be allocated—COGS vs. OPEXHow those allocation decisions impact key metricsThe hiring trends shaping the future of the FDE If you’re building an AI-native application or an agentic AI company with outcome-based pricing, this episode is packed with insights and ideas on why a Forward-Deployed Engineer could be your next—and most important—hire. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Iconiq recently published its State of Software 2025: Rethinking the Playbook. Whenever a new industry benchmark report is published, Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike try to quickly read, analyze and decide if the report should be discussed on an episode of the Metrics Brothers. The Iconiq State of Software 2025 is a solid industry report that includes several key findings that Dave and Ray discuss during this episode including: Ai-Native vs AI-Enabled vs non-AI segmentationGrowth's impact on Enterprise Value to Revenue multiplesRevenue growth trends by company sizeNet Revenue Retention BenchmarksCAC Payback Period BenchmarksAdoption vs Engagement vs Outcomes for AI software companiesFunnel Conversion metrics for AI vs non-AI companies If you are interested in how the top tier, maybe I should say top quartile of SaaS companies are performing, in context of SaaS companies leveraging AI, those not leveraging AI and AI-Native software companies - this episode has something for everyone! See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

The Bessemer Venture Partners Cloud 100 Benchmarks Report 2025 provides a snapshot into the top 100 PRIVATE SaaS/Cloud/AI companies. This year's report is full of new insights and trends that highlight how AI is impacting the software industry as we know it. Some of the key points in the report that our hosts Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike discuss during today's episode include:  The Cloud 100 $1,117 billion in aggregate value - a 36% increase from $820 billion in 2024The top 10 companies account for $598 billion of the aggregate value - 54% of entire list versus 46% last yearOpenAI valued at $300 billion exceeds the combined value of last year’s top 10AI companies dominate this year’s list, comprising $464 billion in value - last year AI company total valuation was $176B (21%)The average Cloud 100 company reached the $100M (Centaur) milestone in just 7.5 years - AI companies only 5.7 years The story on the Cloud 100 valuation multiples provide an interesting story on how valuation and growth are not necessarily trending in the same direction: The average Cloud 100 revenue multiple was 20x fell for third straight and down from 34X (41%) since 2021 If you are interested in how the SaaS and Cloud industry is evolving - by the number, and how AI-Native software companies are changing the benchmarks this episode is a MUST listen! Bessemer Cloud 100 Benchmark 2025 Report is available by clicking here See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Positive Business Outlook or Work-Life Balance - which is more important? The "Grindscore" metric combines the two to determine the attractiveness of a company for employees.  Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike discuss the metric from many different angles including: The origin of the Grindscore metricPositive Business Outlook (PBO) + Work-Life Balance (WLB)Sample of Private and Public Company GrindscoresWhy a high PBO and high WLB scores the same as a low PBO and an average WLB (flaws of the metric) This episode covers a metric that most software companies are not using - and the conversation may put a light on some of the reasons why?! See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Bessemer Venture Partners recently released their State of AI 2025 Report, a space exploration manual for the AI software era. With AI now the dominant software force, let's dive into what Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike took away from the report in today's episode: The key differences in performance metrics between AI Supernovas and Shooting StarsWhy Vertical AI companies have a unique opportunity to outperform horizontal AI companies in the early daysThe importance of building a structured Proof of Concept or Pilot program into your customer acquisition processThe top 5 predictions for the AI market in 2026Top 10 takeaways for Native-AI founders and executive leaders The top five predictions from the report for AI in 2026 include: The browser will emerge as a dominant interface for agentic AI2026 will be the year of generative videoEvaluations and data lineage will become a critical catalyst for AI product developmentA new AI-native social media giant could emergeThe incumbents strike back as AI M&A heats up For the best listening experience, open the Bessemer Venture Partners State of AI 2025 report and follow along as Dave and Ray discuss the highlights. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Aventis Advisors recently published a report on AI Valuations which covered the number of investments, size of those investments, median valuations and multiples on AI investments over a 15 year period from 2010 through first half of 2025! Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike discuss some of the highlights including: AI industry categories includedNumber of financing rounds (2010 - 1H2025)Total Capital Raised (2010 - 1H2025)Median sizes by round (2010 - 1H2025)Valuations (2010 - 1H2025)Valuation multiples (2010 - 1H2025)Large Language Model valuations vs AI Coding Assistant ValuationsSummary of the AI funding environment You can follow along to Dave and Ray's conversation by clicking the below link to the report Aventis AI Valuation Multiples Report See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

AI-Native products and AI products integrated into a traditional SaaS platform have different Cost of Goods Sold (COGS) than a SaaS platform, which directly impacts Gross Margin. With over 80% of SaaS companies already integrating AI products into their platform, the Metrics Brothers knew it was time to discuss the Gross Margin and Cost of Goods Sold considerations of deploying an AI product: Topics that CAC and Growth discuss during this episode includes: Gross Margin benchmarks for AI products versus SaaS platformsCost of Goods Sold (COGS) for SaaS productsCost of Goods Sold (COGS) for AI productsGeneral Rules for COGS vs OPEX categorizationIncreasing AI product Gross Margins with scaleThe cascading reality of AI investments and build-outs If you are considering investing capital and resources into an AI product, be it in an AI-Native product or as an add-on to a legacy SaaS platform, this conversation between CAC and Growth provides multiple insights and considerations for many Cost of Goods Sold components for AI products vis-à-vis traditional SaaS products. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

AI is creating a level of need for data centers, power and processing capacity that has not been seen before - but how to measure the magnitude of that need is the topic for the Metrics Brothers to take on during this episode. During today's conversation, Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike discuss many key Data Center metrics including: FLOPS - Floating Point Operations per SecondModel ParametersWatts and Gigawatts = PowerGigawatt/hours = EnergyFirst multi-GW data center named Prometheus Why data center size is now being compared to the city of Manhattan AI is changing the world as we know it - and the Metrics Brothers are diving into this trend metric by metric! See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

SaaS companies were traditionally measured on how many years it took to achieve $100M ARR - a key milestone! In today's brave new world of AI, this milestone is now measured in MONTHS. Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike highlight discuss this new AI growth metric in today's episode with many examples including: LovableCursorWizBoltAnthropicOpenAI Dave and Ray discuss how these new hypergrowth AI-Native companies compare to some of the fastest growing traditional SaaS companies including DocuSign, Atlassian, Box, HashiCorp, Zoom and Slack. The Metrics Brothers then dive a little deeper into the details of the "months to $100M" to discuss WHEN does that clock begin to tick, at launch or at $1M ARR? They then go beyond just AI and discuss how Product-Led Growth was once viewed as a key to accelerating growth to $100M and where the reality meets the expectations. Lastly, CAC and Growth discuss one example of a fast growing AI company that could not quite sustain the early growth trajectory that was greatly helped by the hype and the hope of AI - a cautionary tale for other high flyers or just an interesting data point? Take a listen to this episode if you are involved, interested or evaluating how growth rate expectations for software companies in the new era of software!!! See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

The recent $2.4B deal by Google to purchase Windsurf's two co-founders, key staff and a non-exclusive license to the Windsurf software is an example of the new Reverse Acqui-hire structure. Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike discuss the tradition vs new acqui-hire structure model as evidenced by the Google-Windsurf deal. During this episode, CAC and Growth cover not only the Goggle-Windsurf deal, they also discuss the broader impact to the future of acquisitions across the software industry. Topics discussed include: The timeline of the Google, Windsurf and now Cognition dealOverview of the traditional tech acqui-hire deal structureDiscussion on how the new "reverse acquihire" is differentComparing professional athlete's top salaries to top AI and software talent in reverse acqui-hiresWHY the use of the new reverse acqui-hires happen and why it will probably continue If you enjoy going beyond the traditional headlines of industry acquisitions and thinking about the underlying reason why tech acquisition deal structures are evolving and changing - this discussion on the Google-Windsurf deal provides great content to go beyond what and think about the why!!! See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

AI and AI-Native companies are changing the software industry and the metrics to measure AI market momentum are still evolving. During this weeks episode, our co-hosts Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike discuss a recent article on AI Metrics by Benedict Evans. AI measurements and metrics discussed include: Daily Active Users / Monthly Active Users (DAU/MAU)Tokens - what they are and how they are calculatedWeekly User Retention Dave and Ray take us on a stroll down "metrics memory lane" as they discuss the early days of the internet, and some of the metrics that were used in the early days, that evolved and changed as the use of the internet began to mature - some of those metrics included: Internet HostsHitsPage ViewsEyeballs Lastly, the term Occam's Razor was introduced to discuss why sometimes the simplest metrics that require the lowest number of assumptions is a good place to start when initially measuring new things. The Metrics Brothers are excited to expand their metrics-centric analysis and insights into the rapidly evolving world of AI, and specifically AI software and AI metrics! See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Figma is a web-based collaborative design platform used by product designers, UX/UI teams and developers. They also just recently filed their S-1. During this episode, Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike discuss several aspects of the S-1 including: Customer count & revenue by customer segment ( $10,000 ARR, > $100,000 ARR, > $1M ARR)Net Revenue (Dollar) Retention Rate Calculation (132%)Gross Revenue (Dollar) Retention Rate Calculation (96%)Rule of 40 = 79 (higher than Palantir)Impact of the Adobe acquisition collapse - an enterprise valuation perspective Inspiration for the discussion and a few data points beyond what was in the Figma S-1 included: Jamin Ball - Clouded Judgement NewsletterOnly CFO NewsletterCJ Gustafson - Mostly Metrics Newsletter If you are interested in SaaS companies, S-1 filings and SaaS Metrics such as Net Revenue Retention, Gross Revenue Retention, and Rule of 40 - those metrics that impact enterprise value - this episode is for you!!! See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Go-to-Market is a term often used to describe the strategy, processes, and organizations that B2B companies employ to acquire, retain, and expand their customer base. In this episode, Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike discuss the recently published ICONIQ report on the State of GTM 2025...and yes, it includes a lot about how AI-native and AI utilization are impacting all things GTM.  Topics include: Funnel Conversion Rate TrendsAI-Native Funnel Performance Advantages Cost per OpportunityCustomer Renewal TimingGo-to-Market Headcount allocation (AI-Native vs Legacy SaaS)AI's impact on Sales ProductivityAI Spend Trends If you are a GTM leader, are responsible for the financial performance of your B2B SaaS company, or are interested in how AI is impacting all things customer acquisition, retention, and expansion, this episode has something for you!!! See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

The definition of Annual Recurring Revenue (ARR) has never been standardized - but in an era of variable pricing models such as Usage-Based Pricing, the innovative approaches to calculating and reporting ARR continue to evolve. During this episode, Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike cover the topic guided by a few recently industry influencer posts - coupled with their own experiences including: Ben Murray, The SaaS CFO - Please Don't Tell me ARR is DeadCJ Gustafson - How Public Companies Report ARRNotable, Glenn Solomon and Laura Hamilton. - Is ARR Dead or Just Evolving?Ben Murray, The SaaS CFO - Defining and Reporting ARR in a Variable Pricing EnvironmentDave Kellogg - SaaS Metrics Palooza '24 - The Impact of AI on SaaS Metrics (especially ARR) If you are interested in the topic of how companies using a variable pricing model are calculating and reporting ARR - this is a must listen episode and provides links to some of the most recent thinking on the topic! See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Mary Meeker’s experience dates back to her role as a leading technology analyst at Morgan Stanley with her “Internet Trends Report”, she was in the middle of the Netscape, Amazon, and Google IPOs, and became a VC at Kleiner Perkins (2010) and then founded Bond in 2018 which has raised $5.75B to fund companies including Canva, Stripe, Plaid, Ironclad and Nextdoor to name just a few. During this episode of SaaS Talk with the Metrics, CAC and Growth discuss some of the KEY highlights of the 339-page report, Bond and Mary Meeker just released on Artificial Intelligence (AI) Trends - 2025 including: ChatGPT and Generative AI are the fastest growing technology adoption of all time - with contextExponential growth of the AI ecosystemHow Generative AI is reinventing the technology stack and economic modelsGeo-political impact of the race to AI leadershipCapital intensive nature of AI and the operating profitability realityLegacy SaaS companies or native language models applications - who will win...and why The Metrics Brothers go beyond legacy SaaS to discuss the AI Trends captured in the Mary Meeker - Bond report and guess what - it includes numbers and metrics!!! Full report available at: https://www.bondcap.com/report/pdf/Trends_Artificial_Intelligence.pdf See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike break down the recent Benchmarkit B2B Marketing Budget and Productivity Benchmarks Report. Key trends and insights into how the Marketing budgets are established, consumed and reported upon including: Marketing budget as a percentage of revenue including YoY changes and segmented by company sizeGrowth Rates compared to Marketing budget allocation - the chicken or the egg discussionPeople vs Program vs Technology budget allocation - and which company profile attributes impact the resultsDemand Generation - how much of the Marketing budget is consumed by demand gen - it depends...Product-Led Growth vs Sales-Led Growth - how the GTM motion impacts budget allocationTop 3 Marketing Performance Metrics use and the Top 3 Marketing efficiency metrics used If you are evaluating how your Marketing budget companies to similar "like" companies or how other companies are measuring the efficiency and/or Marketing ROI - this episode has something for you! See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

How do you calculate the efficiency of pipeline generation in a B2B SaaS company? Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike take this metric(s) topic on head first by discussing both the Cost per Opportunity and Pipe to Spend metrics - key to understanding how much investment is required to generate pipeline! During this episode CAC and Growth also touch upon the closely aligned metric of "Pipeline Conversion" which is a critical metric to partner with both the Cost per Opportunity and the Pipe to Spend metrics! If you are responsible for generating pipeline (Demand Gen), responsible for the budget that goes into pipeline generation (Head of Marketing / CMO) or for how efficient new pipeline and the associated New ARR is produced (CFO and CEO) this episode has something for each pipeline generation stakeholder!!! See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Customer Acquisition Cost efficiency continues to be challenged in the B2B SaaS environment, while alignment across the Go-to-Market organization continues to be a topic of conversation. So, Dave "CAC" Kellogg a long time Marketing executive and Ray "Growth" Rike, a long time Sales executive decided to take on the the topic of Marketing and Sales alignment from their respective experiences as department executives. Topics discussed include: What is Marketing and Sales AlignmentWhat isn't Marketing and Sales AlignmentTop 3 Ideas to Achieve Marketing and Sales AlignmentHow Metrics Can Impact Marketing and Sales AlignmentThe Impact of Alignment If you are a CEO depending on the productivity of an aligned Go-to-Market organization, or the head of Marketing or Sales in a B2B SaaS company, this conversation is full of interesting ideas, stories and approaches to increasing revenue growth efficiency. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike recently did a LIVE episode of SaaS Talk with the Metrics Brothers at the Baker Tilly Technology Finance Symposium in San Francisco. The topic of their discussion was aligning Finance and the Go-to-Market functions and included how SaaS metrics can be used as a core "alignment" strategy.  During this "extended" version of SaaS Talk with the Metrics Brothers, Ray and Dave discussed several different strategies to align Finance and the GTM functions, including: What is alignmentWhat isn't alignmentReal-life stories on what misalignment looks likePutting "Strategy" back into Strategic PlanningStrategic Planning Frameworks to considerSaaS Performance Metrics Framework to consider If you are a CFO or GTM executive leader - this live conversation is full of interesting ideas, experiences and of course a few attempts at humor by the Metrics Brothers! See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Stock-based Compensation (SBC) has been a hallmark of the SaaS and Cloud industry since the early days. Stock Options, Restricted Stock Units, Strike Price, and vesting periods continue to be a key discussion point for potential hires. Today's episode covers how Stock-based compensation impacts Operating Expenses on the Income Statement...and how SBC can impact SaaS metrics. Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike dive into the details of Stock-Based Compensation in today's episode including: What is Stock-Based Compensation (SBC)How does a company pay/account for SBCWhat kind of expense is Stock-Based CompensationWhere does SBC show up on an Income StatementHow can SBC impact SaaS metrics Stock-Based Compensation can be a very complex and nuanced topic, but if you are a SaaS executive, a SaaS employee with stock options, or a SaaS company investor, this conversation and episode is full of detailed insights. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

B2B SaaS Benchmark reports are popping up like mushrooms - but how do you know if the benchmark report is good, contains valuable insights and how to use the benchmarks to inform your own objectives and SaaS metrics goals?  Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike take on a topic that is near and dear to their hearts and discuss several key factors that are a tell for a good benchmark report including: Top things to consider when reading a benchmark reportAttributes of a good benchmark reportAttributes of a "not so good" benchmark reportBenchmark utilization best practicesGood Benchmark reports to review If you read benchmark reports and use them in helping to establish goals and objectives in your B2B SaaS company - this episode is a must listen! See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Ideal Customer Profile (ICP) is a term commonly used across the SaaS industry - but what does it really mean, how can a company effectively build a customer acquisition strategy around it and what METRICS can be used to determine a company's ICP and then measure if it really is the best target customer segment? During this week's episode, Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike discuss the following ICP elements to understand, execute and measure the ROI on the "Ideal Customer Profile": What variables are used to determine the ICPHow to measure the relevant fit of a prospect to the ICPHow to measure if the identified "ICP" is the best target customer segment(s)What metrics can be added to the traditional ICP criteria to enhance the targeting strategy As always - CAC and Growth introduce a new pairing and an attempt at humor throughout the episode 😱 See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Net Customer Base Expansion = (Expansion ARR - Churned ARR) which helps SaaS companies to understand how the existing customer base is impacting ARR growth excluding the impact of new logo customer ARR.  Why not just use Net Revenue Retention? CAC and Growth dive deep into this SaaS metric including: Calculation formula for Net Customer Base Expansion (NCBE)How is NCBE different from Net Revenue Retention (NRR)What is CAC's definition of lazy NRRCohort vs Segment Calculations - what is the differenceWhat is a good Net Customer Base Expansion RateWhen and where does the Net Customer Base Expansion provide the most value If you are responsible for impacting how ARR grows at existing customers in a B2B SaaS company - this episode may provides some new insights and maybe a new metric to add to your SaaS Metrics glossary! See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

B2B SaaS Pricing models have evolved over the past few years with 67% of SaaS companies now saying they have introduced at least one element of Usage-Based Pricing. Though this benchmark does not tell the whole story of pricing, as the primary pricing model is still based upon a subscription fee per user or a subscription fee per user + a Usage-Based or Value-Based pricing variable. During this episode, CAC and Growth cover a wide range of current pricing trends and benchmarks including: Subscription vs Usage vs Value vs Hybrid pricing model adoptionAdoption of AI and the associated pricing strategiesImpact on Growth Rates based upon pricing model usedUtilization of "Usage CAPS" and how they are chargedTreatment of Usage-Based Revenue when calculating ARR If you are a student of the SaaS industry, and/or are evaluating if your current pricing model is optimized for your customers and your company's financial performance - this episode is chalked full of unique insights and thought-provoking commentary from Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Common practice is to measure Sales and Marketing expenses as a percentage of revenue, which in the SaaS industry ranges between 20% - 60% based upon stage, growth and efficiency. CAC and Growth discuss an alternative metric which measures the ratio between Sales expenses and Marketing expenses, known as the Sales/Marketing Expense Ratio. During this episode topics discussed include: Sales and Marketing expense as percentage of revenue benchmarksSales and Marketing expense ratio - value and insightsWhat a 2:1 Sales and Marketing expense ratio meansWhat drives a changing Sales and Marketing expense ratioCustomer Acquisition Cost Efficiency metric - CAC Ratio vs S&M Expense Ratio If you are interested in measuring the allocation of the GTM budget between Sales and Marketing, this is a great episode and listen. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

The Sales Velocity metric calculation formula is (win rate x average contract value x # opportunities)/ average sales cycle length. The resultant Sales Velocity metrics highlights the amount of new bookings a Sales team can deliver per day....one key question about Sales Velocity is " is this a metric to help understand sales capacity, sales effectiveness or sales efficiency? Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike break down Sales Velocity in this episode covering key topics including: Sales Velocity CalculationSales Velocity BenefitsWhich input variables to focus on firstFour Approaches to Increase Sales Velocity If you have a sales team, lead a sales team or are involved in how sales performance impacts financial goals, this episode provides several key "operator insights" on how to use the Sales Velocity metric and ideas on how to improve Sales Velocity! See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike discuss the latest revenue growth trends and the related metrics driving the growth as highlighted in GONGs 2025 State of Revenue Growth Report. Topics discussed include: 2024 Growth RatesSales Velocity Trends including Win Rates, Sales Cycle Length and ACVAI AdoptionTop Growth InitiativesSaaS Magic Number trends If you are responsible for the GTM and Revenue growth teams in your SaaS company, or just interested in the latest Sales benchmarks - this episode in another great listen! See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Implied ARR is the SaaS metric used to convert GAAP revenue for public SaaS companies into an equivalent to Annual Recurring Revenue (ARR) used by investors and private SaaS companies. Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike discuss the what, why and how behind Implied ARR. During this episode CAC and Growth discuss multiple Implied ARR topics including: Implied ARR Calculation FormulaWhy Investors Calculate Implied ARRSaaS Metrics that use Implied ARRChallenges with Implied ARRImplied ARR versus Trailing Twelve Month Revenue If you are interested in how public SaaS companies analysts use Implied ARR, and what the differences are between private SaaS companies ARR and public SaaS companies Implied ARR this is another great listen! See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Max Schireson and Jason Mendel, from Battery Ventures recently published an article on Managing and Measuring R&D spend including key metrics from the DORA and SPACE frameworks and they also introduced their own 5 step R&D measurement framework including: Allocate top downBreak R&D into granular buckets (not a lump sum)Listen to product-adjacent teams that are customer-facingBe deliberate about measuring success of R&D projectsHold the full team accountable The article also includes benchmarks from Battery Ventures portfolio company, LinearB. If you are interesting in best practices on measuring R&D productivity, this episode is a great listen! See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

In this episode, Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike discuss the SaaS Quick Ratio, a SaaS metric first introduced in 2015 with the goal to measure ARR growth efficiency by comparing New ARR growth versus existing customer ARR contraction. The SaaS Quick Ratio borrows a concept used in general finance known as the "Quick Ratio" - which measures a company's ability to pay it's current liabilities. The formula used to calculate the SaaS Quick Ratio is: (New Logo ARR + Expansion ARR)/ (Churned ARR + Down-Sell ARR) Traditional wisdom says a SaaS Quick Ratio above 4 is good, between 1-4 is ok but beware that ARR growth is not as efficient as it should be and less than 1 is highly inefficient growth - an ARR leaky bucket! If you are a SaaS operator and looking for an easy metric to calculate that quickly highlights ARR growth efficiency as measured by the ratio of New ARR versus Lost ARR - The SaaS Quick Ratio may be for you. Listen to the entire episode to hear CAC and Growth discuss the nuances of the SaaS Quick Ratio! See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Marketing budget and productivity benchmarks are hard to find, so when Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike first saw the ICONIQ Growth Marketing Budget and Productivity Report - they knew it was a great topic for this episode of SaaS Talk with the Metrics Brothers. During today's episode, Dave and Ray discuss several critical Marketing Planning, Budget, and Productivity benchmarks including: Marketing budget as a percentage of RevenueOn-line versus off-line spendProgram vs People budget allocationOnline Marketing spend by channelOff-line Marketing spend by programOutsourcing and Agency spend by program typeMarketing efficiency benchmarksPipeline contribution sources If you are a B2B SaaS Chief Marketing Officer, Chief Financial Officer or CEO, this episode is chalked full of great data, insights and ideas for 2025 and beyond... See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

ServiceTitan, a vertical SaaS company for the trades recently filed their S-1 and went public on December 12, 2024. Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike discuss many details regarding the S-1 including the basic enterprise value creating performance metrics and some very interesting aspects of the IPO structure. During this episode, Dave and Ray discuss several aspects of the S-1 and IPO measured against industry benchmarks including: ARR Growth RateRule of 40Net Dollar Retention RateCAC Payback Period Gross Margin S&M as a percentage of revenueR&D as a percentage of revenueARR per FTERevenue breakdown by category (Subscription, Gross Transaction Value, Services)Down round from last rounds of funding as a private companyCompounding IPO RatchetDifferent classes of stock and voting rights One of the sources of information used for this episode was the Meritech Capital S-1 breakdown which can be read here. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

KeyBanc Capital Markets in partnership with Sapphire Ventures recently published their 2024 SaaS Metrics Benchmark report. During today's episode, Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike dive into this years highlights including: Growth RatesNet and Gross Revenue RetentionRule of 40Go-to-Market Organization RatiosMarketing Strategies and ProductivityHuman Capital EfficiencyValuation Multiples - By Growth Rate If you are a SaaS executive, employee or investor this episode is a great listen! See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

The Sales Operations function evolves dramatically as a company scales and Meghan Gill, SVP Sales Ops and Sales Development at MongoDB has lived that reality. Meghan started in Marketing at MongoDB as employee number 8 as the first non engineering hire, and then seven years later took over Sales Operations in preparation for their IPO. CAC and Growth discuss the evolution of Sales Ops with Meghan and discuss several key topics including: The career journey from Marketing to Sales OperationsThe evolution of Sales Operations post IPOSales Operations vs Revenue OperationsGTM changes required when converting to Usage-Based PricingCentralized planning to decentralized global planning - an operations perspectiveHearing how the role of Sales Operations evolves from pre IPO to post IPO and continuing to $2B+ directly from a person who has been in the middle of making that journey possible makes for a highly informative conversation and a unique guest centric SaaS Talk with the Metrics Brothers episode!!! See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

CAC and Growth discuss the recent Scaling SaaS from $1M to $20M ARR ICONIQ Growth report that provides a long term view on the performance metrics benchmarks that SaaS companies exhibit at granular stages of growth including $5M, $10M, $15M and $20M ARR. Benchmarks covered include: Enterprise Five Benchmarks (Median and Top Quartile)Growth Plateau Challenges started at $25M ARRNew Logo GrowthOperating Expense TrendsAnnual Contract Value Growth by StageNew ARR vs Expansion ARRARR per FTEBurn Multiple The ICONIQ Growth "Scaling SaaS from $1M to $20M ARR" Report provides unique insights and perspectives on the benchmarks that define success as measured by both the top quartile and median benchmarks for the 107 private SaaS companies that are included in this research. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

The Remaining Performance Obligation (RPO) metric has become a more standard metric that public company Wall Street analysts have started to follow closely to help evaluate the bookings growth of recurring revenue companies. CAC and Growth cover the following topics regarding RPO including: Why was the Remaining Performance Obligation createdWhat does the Remaining Performance Obligation (RPO) metric tell investorsHow is RPO calculatedThe difference between RPO and deferred revenueHow multi-year agreements impact both the RPO and Deferred Revenue calculations If you are interested in how public company analysts use the RPO metric or are just a student of the SaaS industry - this episode dives deep into an increasingly important SaaS investor metric! See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Customer Retention is a hallmark of the SaaS recurring revenue business model. But what is the primary metric to measure the cost of retaining each customer, how is the efficiency to renew ARR calculated, and what goes into that metric? Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike go deep into the components of Customer Retention Costs and the value in measuring including: The benefits of measuring Customer Retention CostsCustomer Retention vs Customer Renewal CostsThe Components of Customer Retention CostsTotal ARR or Renewed ARR - which is the best to measure Retention Costs against The SaaS industry has multiple metrics that measure the cost to acquire a customer (Customer Acquisition Cost), the efficiency of acquiring new customers (CAC Ratio), the payback period on Customer Acquisition Costs (CAC Payback Period) and how much recurring revenue is retained every period (Gross Revenue Retention- GRR)...but no standard metric that measures the efficiency of retaining and renewing customers. During this episode, CAC and Growth dive deep into the topic of the Customer Retention Cost Ratio and the Customer Renewal Cost Ratio! See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

New investment announcements in B2B SaaS companies are not quite what they seem!? Over the past few years, public announcements have moved from how much capital was raised to what the valuation of the company was at funding. BEWARE - those valuation headlines are full of nuance and details that are not disclosed!!! Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike - also known as The Metrics Brothers go deep into the details that are left out and are present behind the headline valuation announcements including: Class of stockLiquidation preferencesParticipating preferencesRedemption RightsSecondary Sales If you are in the B2B SaaS industry and interested in the "story behind headline valuation announcements" - this is a great conversation to hear!!! See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Contracted Annual Recurring Revenue (CARR) and Annual Recurring Revenue (ARR) are commonly used terms in the SaaS and Cloud Industry but are not standardized leading to inconsistent calculation. In fact, they were the first two metrics the SaaS Metrics Standards Board published standards upon. Dave and Ray discuss the current definitions, calculations and how Usage-Based Pricing is impacting the historic ARR reporting model. During today's episode CAC and Growth cover the following topics: Contracted Annual Recurring Revenue (CARR) - Definition and CalculationAnnual Recurring Revenue (ARR) - Definition and CalculationUsage-Based Pricing and impact on revenue reportingIntroduction of Recurring and Re-ocurring revenueReporting variable revenue from Usage-Based Pricing models With ARR not being a FASB / GAAP Revenue reporting standard - the opportunity and challenges for having multiple calculation and reporting models is easy to identify - but hard to rectify. If you are using, considering using or do not use Usage-Based Pricing this conversation and episode is a great listen. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Free Cash Flow is a key metric for any SaaS investor and thus for SaaS CFOs and CEOs. Moreover Free Cash Flow Margin is a key variable in the Rule of 40 - a key enterprise value creation metric. Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike dive deep into the value behind the FCF metric and the different ways to calculate! During this episode Dave and Ray discuss the following elements of Free Cash Flow: Where to find Free Cash Flow on public company filingsThe three primary Cash Flow statementsDifferent formulas to calculate Free Cash FlowThe impact of capitalizing sales commissions and R&DThe Rule of 40 calculation - Free Cash Flow as the profitability metric Free Cash Flow is not a metric limited to B2B SaaS companies but has become an increasingly important metric to SaaS investors as the industry matures as measured by how Enterprise Value has become more correlated to a blend of growth and profitability. This episode is a great listen for anyone interested in the core financial metrics that impact the value of a B2B SaaS company! See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Bessemer Venture Partners recently released their 9th annual Cloud 100 Report. Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike dive deep into the impact of AI companies on the top 100 private cloud companies which increased their aggregate enterprise value to $820B and increased their growth rate to 70%! Key highlights Dave and Ray discuss include: Aggregate enterprise value of the Cloud 100 increased 25% year over yearAverage growth rate increased from 55% in 2023 to 70% in 202497% of the Cloud 100 will be over $100M ARR by the end of the yearTop 10 companies in the Cloud 100 represent ~ 30% of the total Enterprise ValueAi companies represent the top category of the Cloud 100 EV (21% of total)EV:Revenue multiples are down YoY (23x) but still at very attractive levels As a follow-on to the BVP "State of the Cloud 2024 Report" the Cloud 100 highlights the era of AI has moved from hype to reality as measured by growth rates and enterprise value! If you are interested in the latest "CLOUD" industry trends as measured by company value, revenue growth rates and industry impact this episode is a must listen! See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Go-to-Market continues to be a trending topic for the majority of B2B SaaS companies being challenged to optimize efficient revenue growth. ICONIQ recently published a report entitled "State of GTM Benchmarks" and Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike discuss the report's findings and what the benchmarks mean to both operators and investors. Key GTM benchmarks covered during today's episode include: Growth Rate Trends ('24 vs '23)Customer Acquisition Logo VelocityPipeline Coverage RatioPipeline Conversion RatesPartner Sourced ContributionsExpansion ARR vs New Logo ARR If you are a B2B SaaS CEO, CFO or GTM executive this episode is full of interesting insights based upon the most recent GTM benchmarks. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

The SaaS Mendoza line highlights the slope of the long term growth rate that investors expect and operators should target on a path to IPO. Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike break down the updated expectations. Veteran software VC, Rory O’Driscoll of Scale Venture Partners proposed a theory to identify the growth rate below which a company may not be on the VC-to-IPO trajectory. In 2018, Rory started with an analysis of SaaS companies at the time of IPO. In 2018, SaaS companies going public had a minimum run rate ARR of $100M and at least a 25% forward growth rate. He then examined growth rates over time and observed that the growth persistence - which represents the rate of growth decay year over year, that public SaaS companies grew at 80-85% of their previous year’s growth. This metric is commonly known as "Growth Endurance". Dave and Ray discuss the new reality of the SaaS Mendoza line, with the most recent data in 2023-2024 suggesting that a SaaS company must have at least $400M - $500M" in revenue before they can IPO as evidenced by the recent Klaviyo, OneStream and Rubrik initial pubic offerings. CAC and Growth highlight other common "growth expectation" models including the T2D3 (Triple, Triple, Double, Double Double) and 56789 models. If you are evaluating what it takes for early stage company to attract new investors as your growth on a path to IPO - this conversation is full of great insights and perspective on investor expectations. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Go-to-Market trouble shooting is a very common activity in 2024 as B2B SaaS companies continue to face growth and especially efficient revenue growth challenges. In this episode Dave "CAC" Kellogg shares his top-down GTM trouble shooting method which boils down into two primary categories: Pipeline CoveragePipeline Conversion Dave and Ray dive into the details on the key metrics to evaluate and what they tell a SaaS GTM operator about the current state of their GTM performance. Key insights are provided across multiple topics including: Week 3, Day 1 Pipeline Coverage RatioWin Rate vs Pipeline Coverage RatioPipeline Conversion MeasurementPipeline Source and Composition CAC also provides his most basic insight into the top two questions a CEO should be asking which are: Are we giving sales a chance to hit the number (pipeline coverage)Is Sales converting enough opportunities into customers (pipeline conversion) If you are a CEO, CFO or GTM leader in B2B SaaS and are responsible for GTM performance and/or evaluating GTM performance this episode is a great listen! See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

OneStream went public on July 24, 2024 and Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike dedicated this episode to discussing their S-1 and Initial Public Offering (IPO). OneStream, the company offering their Digital Finance Cloud to the Office of Finance has a long history including being self-funded, being acquired by Private Equity (KKR) in 2019 and beginning the transition from a perpetual license software company to a SaaS company in 2020 on the path to their IPO. During the episode, Dave and Ray discuss multiple aspects of the OneStream public offering including: The history of OneStreamKKR investment in 2019IPO pricingUmbrella Partnership Corporation (Up-C)Stock Class Voting RightsFinancial Performance Metrics Trends If you are a student of the SaaS industry and/or are interested in the details behind a company that serves the Office of Finance this episode is a great listen. This is the 50th episode of SaaS Talk™ with the Metrics Brothers and don't miss CAC and Growth sharing credits to the people who made SaaS Talk a reality!!! See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Burn Multiple is a metric created by David Sacks to measure the capital efficiency of ARR growth in B2B SaaS companies. In this episode, Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike discuss alternatives to the Burn Multiple and then dive into the details of the two primary burn multiple components which are Net Burn and Net New ARR. There are multiple metrics that attempt to measure capital efficiency of B2B SaaS companies including: Hype Ratio = Capital Raised / ARRCash Conversion Score: Current ARR / (Total Capital Raised to date - cash)Efficiency Score = Net New ARR / Net Burn The Burn Multiple uses two primary components in it's calculation which is: Burn Multiple = Net Burn / Net New ARRNet Burn = Revenue in the Period - Operating Expenses in the PeriodNet New ARR = New Logo ARR + Expansion ARR - Down-sell ARR - Churned ARR What is a good Burn Multiple? It depends on the stage of the company, but let's use David Sacks benchmark framework from his original Burn Multiple article in 2020: Amazing = 3x If you have an investor focused on the Burn Multiple or you have heard about the Burn Multiple but want to understand the details and nuances this episode is a great listen! See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Bessemer Venture Partners recently released their "State of the Cloud 24" which included the catch phrase "The Legacy Cloud is Dead - Long Live AI Cloud!" Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike discuss the report and the opportunities and threats to traditional SaaS companies. Topics discussed include: Social Media Buzz and Sources of "SaaS is Dead"Gen AI VC Funding Categories and SourcesTop Five Gen AI Trends Trend 1: AI foundation models set the stage for Big Tech’s new battle-of-the-century Trend 2: AI turning all of us into 10X developers Trend 3: Multimodal models and AI agents will transform human relationships with software Trend 4: Vertical AI shows potential to dwarf legacy SaaS with new applications and business models Trend 5: AI Brings Consumer Cloud Back from the Dead If you are in a SaaS company evaluating how best to maneuver the risks and/or capture the potential of Gen AI, the Bessemer State of the Cloud report is a great read and this episode with CAC and Growth is a great listen! See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

McKinsey recently published a report entitled "Navigating the Generative AI Disruption in Software" that Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike discuss in his episode. Some of the primary topics discussed include: GEN AI penetration velocity today vs SaaS in the early daysGEN AI impact on switching from traditional SW/SaaS vendorsWhere will the rewards of Gen AI goImpact on SaaS Growth and Churn Rates One of the most interesting parts of the report and this episode is that expansion growth rates of software will increase for those with embedded generative AI. In addition, the adoption of Generative AI solutions will be spread across three primary modalities of Gen AI software including: Native Generative AI Point SolutionsBroader platforms with embedded Generative AIInternally developed Generative AI software If you are a traditional SaaS company and are looking to navigator the unchartered waters of the Generative AI software era, the McKinsey report and this episode are great sources of ideals and insights. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

What is the difference between the price and value of a SaaS company? How do metrics such as Enterprise Value to  EBITDA multiples play a role in this discussion? Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth Rike discuss the topic on this episode of SaaS Talk with the Metrics Brother and cover a wide array of topics including: What is a SaaS company worth?What is the definition of "price vs value" in the stock marketExamining Valuation Multiples What They Miss, Why They Differ, and the Link to FundamentalsHow Cash and Debt impacts Enterprise ValueEV/EBITDA vs EV/FCF vs EV/Revenue Multiples An inspiration for this episode was from a paper written by Michael Mauboussin with the title: "Examining Valuation Multiples What They Miss, Why They Differ, and the Link to Fundamentals". You can read the paper by clicking here. If you are a SaaS professional or even just interested in learning more about how SaaS companies are valued, this conversation is full of interesting insights and details on the concept of SaaS company valuations. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Trouble shooting Go-to-Market (GTM) issues is a critical competency to master for every SaaS company as they face the pressures of lower growth and reduced revenue growth efficiency. Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike introduce a GTM trouble shooting framework that addresses the five primary opportunities to improve GTM efficiency. The five key areas of Go-to-Market efficiency opportunities include: Pipeline GenerationPipeline ConversionWin Rates + ACVCustomer RetentionCustomer Expansion CAC and Growth discuss some of the key metrics that measure the performance and health of each of the above areas. In addition, as two former B2B SaaS operators, they cannot help but dive into some of the key issues and solutions that go beyond "trouble shooting" and move into potential solutions to enhance revenue growth efficiency and improve performance. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Benchmarkit recently published their 2024 SaaS Performance Metrics Benchmark Report based upon 936 B2B SaaS companies participation. Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike discuss the recent trends and insights. SaaS Metrics and the corresponding benchmarks discussed include: 2023 Growth Rates2024 Planned Growth RatesCAC Ratio (Blended, New and Expansion)CAC Payback PeriodNet Revenue RetentionSales and Marketing expenses as a % of RevenueARR per Employee The full report and interactive benchmarking tool can be reached at: benchmarkit.ai/2024benchmarks If you work in the B2B SaaS or Cloud industry this episode is a must listen! NOTE: Benchmarkit was founded by SaaSTalk co-host, Ray "Growth" Rike" See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Is Pipeline Coverage Ratio simply the inverse of the win rate? Many people will translate a 20% win rate into the need for a 5:1 Pipeline Coverage Ratio - Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike dive into why that just isn't the case! There are multiple variables that need to be considered including: Win Rate versus Closed-Won Rate Conversion - there is a differenceWhat happens to Pipeline Coverage Ratio when deals are pushed into or pushed out of the quarterHow is Pipeline Coverage Ratio different in a 30 day sales cycle versus a 180 day sale cycleBottom line - why Pipeline Coverage Ratio is NOT as simple as 1/Win RateSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

SaaS Account Executive Benchmarks including On-Target Earnings, Commission Rates, Quota, Quota Achievement, Renewal and Expansion Responsibilities are a few of the benchmarks that Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike discuss in this episode. Account Executive Benchmarks discussion include: On-Target Earnings (2024 vs 2022)Base Salary and Variable Compensation MixCommission Rates (2024 vs 2022)Quota Assignment by ACVQuota AchievementRenewal and Expansion Responsibilities If you are leading a B2B SaaS sales team or have one in your company that directly impacts financial performance this is a must listen episode of SaaS Talk with the Metrics Brothers! See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Logan Bartlett, Managing Director at Redpoint Ventures recently shared the Market Overview Report they presented to their Limited Partners in March '24 at their AGM event at the Chase Center in San Francisco. Ray "Growth" Rike and Dave "CAC" Kellogg review the key insights during this episode. Insights that Dave and Ray discussion include: Enterprise Valuations - a return to 2019Growth Rate trends - a return to a time long ago in a land far awayThe value of Growth vs Profitability - the trends and the factsDown Rounds, Shut Downs and No Rounds Click here to get the report and to follow along Dave and Ray's conversation - as they sometimes go off the deep end! See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Rubrik, a cloud industry cybersecurity company went public on April 25th - Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike break down the key metrics that Rubrik used as the foundation to their S-1 and Initial Public Offering. Those metrics include: Annual Recurring Revenue GrowthRevenue (GAAP) GrowthNet Revenue RetentionSales and Marketing Expenses as % of RevenueFree Cash Flow versus Net Income The Metrics Brothers also discuss the Rubrik transition to a recurring revenue model and the two-tier stock structure used to ensure voting control remains with the founders and early investors. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike discuss how a "growth rate" endures for a SaaS company trend over time! Topics covered during the conversation include: T2D3 Growth Model and Mantra from 2015"56789" Growth Model from Metric Brother Dave "CAC" KelloggThe Impact of Growth Endurance decreasing to 65% in 2023 versus 80% in 2021 Growth Endurance is the measure of how a company's growth rate endures over time: GE = current year’s growth rate / last year’s growth rate. At an 80% Growth Endurance (2021 value) says that a companies growth rate in the next year will be 80% of the current years growth - example: 70% growth this year would predict 56% growth next year Growth Endurance has decreased over the last two years and is NOW ~ 65% (2023) - example: 70% growth this year would predict 45.5% growth next year Growth Endurance decreasing from 80% to 65% may not sound that bad but let's look at the impact over 5 years at a $10M ARR company today but... 80% Growth Endurance = $189M ARR in Five Years (starting at $10M ARR)65% Growth Endurance = $122M ARR in Five Years (starting at $10M ARR) Using a 6.5x "Enterprise Value to Revenue" multiple that projects a material decrease in Enterprise Value 👇 80% Growth Endurance = $1.23B Enterprise Value in Five Years65% Growth Endurance = $793M Enterprise Value in Five Years The change in Growth Endurance translates into a $437M decrease in EV (at the same 6.5x multiple) 🤷‍♂️ If Growth Endurance has decreased by 15% over the past two years and Customer Acquisition Cost & Growth Efficiency have not improved materially over the past 7 quarters it might be time to change ... The "T2D3" Growth Model suggests the below ARR growth for a B2B SaaS company Get to $2MNext year: Triple to $6MNext year: Triple to $18MNext year: Double to $36MNext year: Double to $72MNext year: Double to $144M The "56789" Growth Model suggests the below ARR growth for a B2B SaaS company Year 5: $10MYear 6:$20MYear 7: $50MYear 8: $75MYear 9:$100M If you are a fan of B2B SaaS and have a desire or need to stay on top of the most recent trends this episode is a great listen! See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike continue their discussion on the SaaS Metrics Maturity Model which includes the below five levels: Level 1: FoundationLevel 2: TrustLevel 3: Strategic LinkageLevel 4: Metrics CultureLevel 5: Trajectory Level 1:  Lay the foundation Definitions and calculationsPipeline stages, forecast categories, close dates, values, SaaS metricsSemantics - what do words like best case, forecast, commit and downside meanInstrument underlying systems (GL, CRM, Billing, HCM, etc)Consider Metrics Committee Level 2:  Build trust Templates, templates, templatesMetrics selection & presentationHistory & context - always include footnotes on how metrics are calculatedRegular Cadence:  which templates used at which meetings?Continuous improvement - fix data at the source, improve templates Level 3:  Link Metrics to Business Strategy Identify your top challenges Define 4-6 strategic goals - align metrics to those goalsLink department, team and individual objectives to the company metrics (OKRs) Level 4:  Build a metrics culture Demand numeracyManage to the regular metrics publishing cadenceMetrics conversations about the business impact NOT the metric calculation method Level 5:  Agree on strategic trajectory Long-range, driver-based modelsTimeframe:  When are metrics goals targeted to be achieved, what are the milestones towards goalSequencing:  Not everything at once - what is the priority order and associated timeframe for each metric's goal If you are a creator, user or participant in how your company uses metrics to measure performance, inform decision making and/or report performance to your boss, your board and your investors this conversation will be valuable!!! See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike discuss the 5 root causes that created the need to develop a SaaS Metrics Maturity Model for companies as they scale. The top five root causes that lead to the 15 primary problems in how companies use metrics include: There’s no shared metrics foundationThere’s no trustMetrics are not integral to strategyThe culture is not metrics-drivenMetrics are not being used define trajectory and long-term goals This episode discusses the key challenges in using metrics and the approaches to address those challenges. This discussion builds up to the introduction of the Metrics Maturity Model and the 5 levels of maturity: Level 1: FoundationLevel 2: TrustLevel 3: Strategic LinkageLevel 4: Metrics CultureLevel 5: Trajectory If you use, develop or just are a student of SaaS Metrics - this episode is full of insights and ideas on how to accelerate your company's metrics maturity model to level 5!!! See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike discuss the Customer Lifetime Value to Customer Acquisition Cost (LTV:CAC) Ratio - a metric many consider the ultimate compound metric that investors love. During this episode topics covered include: How to calculate Customer Lifetime ValueHow to calculate Customer Acquisition CostBenchmarks for LTV:CAC Ratio and the translation to Rate of ReturnPrimary input variables and predictive indicators to optimize LTV:CAC Ratio If you have ever heard of the LTV:CAC Ratio or just are interested in some of the details and finer points from CAC and GROWTH - this is a entertaining and information episode! See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This is a replay of one of the most popular SaaS Talk episodes (#5) published in season #1. Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike dive deep into all things Customer Acquisition Cost (CAC) including the CAC Ratio. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Aileen Lee, Founder and Managing Partner at Cowboy Ventures recently wrote an article entitled "Welcome Back to the Unicorn Club, 10 Years Later" (1/18/24) which was a follow up to an article she wrote in November, 2013 entitled "Welcome to the Unicorn Club: Learning from Billion-Dollar Startups". Our SaaS Talk™ with the Metrics Brothers co-hosts, Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike do a deep dive into how private and public company valuations are calculate, explore the difference between Market Capitalization and Enterprise Value, and uncover a few of the "inside baseball" secrets to how $1B Unicorn may be worth much less. Topics discussed include: Market CapitalizationEnterprise ValueParticipating vs Non-Participating Preferences1x, 2x and 3x Liquidation PreferenceCommon vs Preferred Stock in a Private CompanyStock Option Re-pricing - beware the last post money Unicorn valuationOnceacorn, Decacorn, Supercorn, ZIRPicorns, Papercorn, Zombiecorn, Unicorpse The number of unicorns has grown from 39 in 2013 to 532 in 2023 per Cowboy Ventures (1,000 according to Battery Ventures). Unfortunately ~ 40% are trading for a much lower price on secondary markets than the last post-money valuations. If you love the idea of creating or being part of a VC backed company worth more than $1B, or are just interested in the material reduction in the creation of new unicorns, this episode is full of detail, insights and a little humor! See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

ICONIQ Growth recently published their "Essential Go-to-Market (GTM) Board Slides", which includes the categories and metrics that they recommend be included in the GTM portion of the board deck. The template includes slides for the each category of GTM metrics they recommend including: GTM ScorecardIdeal Customer ProfileARR FunnelLogo VelocityRevenue and Logo RetentionWin/Loss AnalysisPipelineLead and Funnel ConversionSales Capacity and ProductivityTeam Update and Planning Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike identify and discuss their perspectives on the top slides in the template, while also highlighting a couple of additional slides that would be valuable. If you are a GTM leader, or a CEO or CFO looking on refining and optimizing the GTM portion of your board deck, this episode is full of good ideas and insights. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Common Paper recently released a benchmark report on Cloud contract terms and conditions based upon data from over 1,000 companies. This is the first benchmarking report we have found that covers SaaS/Cloud Master Service Agreements. Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike, better known as the Metrics Brothers break down the benchmarks contained in the report including: Agreement LengthPayment TermsLimitations of LiabilityAI and Data PrivacyInsurance RequirementsDesign Partner Agreements If you are responsible for designing, negotiating or enforcing Master Service Agreements in the Cloud industry, this episode provides broad and detailed insights on the latest MSA terms and conditions being used in the industry. The Common Paper Benchmark report is available by clicking here. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Nick Mehta, CEO of Gainsight joins Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike to discuss all things Customer Success and metrics! This is a "special episode" that combines deep Customer Success (CS) expertise with moments of light humor, pop culture references, and SaaS industry insider insights! Topics discussed and benchmarks shared during this episode include: ARR per CSMCustomers per CSMCustomer Success Reporting RelationshipsExpansion ARR and Renewal ResponsibilityCSAT or NPS Further into the episode, additional topics covered include: Priority Outcome Metrics for CSPrimary Leading Indicators for CSCustomer Verified Outcomes There has been a lot of talk across the industry regarding the future of Customer Success, including if Customer Success as a function is needed which was highlighted in Frank Slootman's book "Amp it Up". If you have a Customer Success team, are considering how to invest in Customer Success, or are just looking for an entertaining 20-minute conversation chalked full of great insights and a laugh or two this episode is a GREAT listen! See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike discuss the top metrics for a Customer Service organization that span the top three goals of CS including resolving, deflecting, and/or preventing cases. During this episode, we lean heavily on CAC's background as a technical support agent for the first two years of his career, and then as the head of the Salesforce Service Cloud. The primary job of Customer Service (Customer Support) including the three below macro-level goals Resolve CasesDeflect CasesPrevent Cases What are the top metrics to measure the performance of Customer Service while ensuring a high level of customer satisfaction?: Cases per Agent (while maintaining a 4.5 CSAT score)CSAT Time to Resolution (mean is not as valuable - have a max)First call resolution There are many nuances to the above metrics including the type of call (how-to or bug fixes), the ability to effectively deflect calls that solve the customer issue, and how to measure the longer-term impact of preventing inbound cases over time. If you are thinking about or currently evaluating your customer service (customer support) performance metrics, this is a great conversation that covers a wide range of metrics, goals, and priorities for any customer service organization in a B2B technology business. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

What are the top metrics for a Professional Services (PS) leader in a B2B SaaS company? During this episode, our hosts Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike discuss the top PS metrics including: Professional Services Revenue / BillingsGross Margin (%)Billable Utilization Rate ($ and Hours)Non Billable Utilization including reasonsCapacity ($ Billables and # Hours) Before diving deep into the actual metrics, Dave highlighted that PS's primary job is to "maximize ARR without losing money". A key highlight on the role of PS is that it is not primarily responsible for maximizing PS Revenue or PS Gross Margin, but rather to help accelerate deployment to subscription revenue recognition, product adoption, utilization, and customer value all leading to increased customer retention rates and subscription customer lifetime value. One of the key points that were discussed is that Professional Services should not be goaled, or incented for maximizing PS revenue and/or optimizing Gross Margin. Generating cash from PS is a strategy that companies that are not in a good cash position may use to lengthen their cash runway - but not a strategy that maximizes the enterprise value of a recurring revenue business. Attach rate is a common measurement that many B2B SaaS companies use. The most common way to measure attach rate is: PS Billings / Total ARR in a specific period, such as quarterly or annually. Being able to correlate those customers that use PS and the associated GRR can highlight how the utilization of PS has to customer retention. What % of total revenue in a B2B SaaS company is the max for professional services? Dave "CAC" Kellogg used 20% as the absolute cap on PS, measured as a % of PS revenue to subscription revenue. Dave also recommended a Gross Margin of anything above zero percent, but optimizing Gross Margin at the expense of ARR is not a good long-term strategy. If you are responsible for Professional Services in a B2B SaaS company, or are evaluating the strategic role and associated metrics for a PS organization this is a great episode to listen to. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike discuss the top metrics for a Chief Customer Officer to use presenting to the board and to report to the executive team when the CCO has responsibility for: 1) Customer Success; 2) Professional Services and; 3) Customer Support Net Revenue RetentionGross Revenue RetentionCustomer Health ScoreBillable PS RevenueBillable UtilizationGross MarginCases per AgentPost Case Closed CSATDeflections Those these are the high level metrics for a CCO, each function will have more detailed lagging and leading indicator metrics that Dave and Ray will cover in subsequent episodes of SaaS Talk with the Metrics Brothers. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

What are the top metrics for a Chief Marketing Officer to use when presenting to the board of directors and in a Quarterly Business Review. Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike discuss the below top 7 CMO metrics during this episode: Marketing Sourced Pipeline GenerationMarketing Sourced Pipeline ConversionDay 1 Pipeline CoverageDemand Generation Cost per OpportunityBrand AwarenessWebsite VisitorsSales CSAT Dave recently wrote a detailed blog article on this topic which can be read by clicking here. "CAC" is a huge fan of the phrase "Marketing creates pipeline that closes" and dives into the detail of the top Marketing metrics during this episode. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Top 5 Metrics for Chief Revenue Officers that own the entire customer journey, including Customer Acquisition, Customer Retention and Customer Expansion process. Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike discuss 5 of the top metrics for a Chief Revenue Officer in 2024 including: ARR "Actual vs Plan" - the keep your job metricPipeline Performance - Coverage & EfficiencyNet Revenue RetentionCAC RatioCLTV:CAC Ratio Key context to this episode, is it discusses 5 of the top metrics for a true Chief Revenue Officer, not a SVP/VP Sales with the CRO title. CROs are responsible for revenue growth across every stage of the customer lifecycle, and is a financial steward of the company focused on increasing enterprise value by leading the strategy and the execution of all processes that result in efficient, profitable revenue growth. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Rule of 40 has been the standard metric B2B SaaS investors and operators have used to measure balanced growth...will the Rule of 40 be surpassed by the new Rule of X recently created by Bessemer Ventures? Join Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike as they discuss the details about the Rule of X including: Foundational calculation formula for the Rule of XHow to find the "Growth Weighted" M in the formulaWhat is a good "Rule of X" score The Rule of 40 has been around for over a decade - but it was missing one key variable....which is more important growth or profitability? Beyond that, if one variable is more important what are the respective weights of Growth and Profit? CAC and Growth have a little fun while diving deep into the details behind the Rule of X and the Rule of 40. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

How the Enterprise Value of a SaaS company impacted by growth rate is the topic of today's conversation with Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike - the result is a new metric named "ERG" - the Enterprise Value to Revenue to Growth Rate Multiple. During this episode, Dave and Ray highlight several leading public, B2B Cloud companies and how their Enterprise Value to Revenue multiples are impacted when the growth rate is factored in. With a public Cloud/SaaS company median growth rate of 21%, the median Enterprise Value to Revenue multiple of 6.1x and a median ERG of .31 - what does that mean when the ERG is calculated for public Cloud companies such as Workday, Twilio, Domo, ZoomInfo and Hubspot? If you are interested in how growth rate impacts enterprise value in a B2B Cloud company - this episode is a great listen! See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike go out on a limb and share their predictions on the Top 5 SaaS Metrics in 2024 - some are old friends and two are brand new for 2024!!! 2023 was a year focused on efficient growth, extending cash runways and making progress towards profitability. Simultaneously, certain metrics became more important in correlation to enterprise value to revenue multiples - including the re-emergence of the Rule of 40 being critical to company valuations. Which metrics are Dave and Ray predicting as the Top Five for 2024: Rule of X - a growth-weighted Rule of 40ARR/FTE - the ultimate overall productivity metric for B2B SaaS companiesGRR & NRR - Why the "&" is so important to measuring retention & expansionCAC Payback Period and CAC Ratio - The GTM efficiency metric combinationERG - a growth-weighted enterprise value to revenue growth ratio The Metrics Brothers focused on the "SaaS Metrics" predictions for this episode - but if you would like to see the more holistic 2024 predictions - take a look at Dave's @kellblog post at: https://kellblog.com/2024/01/02/kellblog-predictions-for-2024/ Happy New Year to all and here is to an improving B2B SaaS environment with a balanced approach to growth and profitability!!! See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike discuss the long standing, industry standard SaaS Metrics Benchmark report from KeyBanc Capital Markets, which was released in December, 2023. If you are a long-time SaaS veteran or new to the SaaS industry - this report has been the de facto SaaS Metrics benchmarking report for 14 years. This year's report includes a total population of 106 companies, and often comes up short in comparison to previous year's report. The small population makes segmenting the benchmarks by company size or ACV much very difficult - and benchmarks that are relevant to company size and ACV is critical in making them useful. We encourage our listeners to download the report and follow along at CAC and Growth break it, and several of the metrics that are included... which are primarily for 2022, and some are based upon 2023 estimates. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike continue their break down the recent Battery Ventures - State of the OpenCloud 2023 Report which includes a historic view of performance benchmarks and some predictions on how AI will impact performance metrics in the future. During Part 2 of this episode the co-hosts cover several metrics and SaaS industry trends including: Growth RatesTechnology Buyer Sentiment heading into 2024The impact of balanced growth + profitabilityBusiness model and pricing evolutionStock Option Re-pricingThe human capital impact of AI...beware Sales and Marketing The entire report is available by clicking here. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike break down the recent Battery Ventures - State of the OpenCloud 2023 Report which includes a historic view of performance benchmarks and some predictions on how AI will impact performance metrics in the future. During this episode the co-hosts cover several metrics and SaaS industry trends including: Growth Rates Technology Buyer Sentiment heading into 2024The impact of balanced growth + profitabilityBusiness model and pricing evolutionStock Option Re-pricingThe human capital impact of AI...beware Sales and Marketing The entire report is available by clicking here. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike analyze the recently published OpenView Partners 2023 Benchmark Report which was conducted in partnership with Paddle. Interesting insights into the declining growth rates and increased customer churn trends. Key metrics and the associated benchmarks segmented by company ARR analyzed include: Growth RateRule of 40Net Revenue RetentionGross Revenue RetentionCAC Payback PeriodHeadcountRevenue/FTE The OpenView 2023 Benchmark Report is at: openviewpartners.com/2023-saas-benchmarks-report/ See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Rule of 40 is a long standing metric used by investors to determine the health and enterprise value of a SaaS company, that is misunderstood far too often - so CAC and Growth dedicated an episode to how the Rule of 40 is calculated and how it impact company valuations including: Calculation formulaBest variable for the operating profitability componentBalance of growth and profitability yielding the highest valuation multiplesWhen does the Rule of 40 become valuable versus a vanity metric If you are a SaaS operator or a public SaaS company investor, this episode covers and important topic and is a great listen! See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Presenting performance metrics at a board meeting is a critical skill for every SaaS CEO, CFO and executive team member - Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike share a few best practices during this episode including: First slide provides a holistic executive summarySecond slide establishes the foundation for every other slideThe importance of showing trends and establishing contextMistakes to avoid This episode encapsulates much of the content from two different presentations shared at SaaStr annual 23' and SaaS Metrics Palooza 23' See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

SaaS metric benchmark trends over the last decade highlights the challenges associated with the rapid expansion and evolution of the B2B SaaS industry. Some of the significant changes that every SaaS industry stakeholder should understand include: Expansion as a % of Revenue GrowthGross Churn RateNet Revenue RateCustomer Acquisition Cost Ratio (cost of acquiring a $ of Growth ARR - New and Expansion)Rule of 40ARR per FTE Matt Harney - at Cloud Ratings did a great job at putting this report together and we highly recommend everyone take a look at: cloudratings.com/saas-benchmarks-historical/ to follow along with Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike as they break down the top findings and insights from this SaaS Metrics Benchmarks longitudinal report. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike discuss all things Bookings, Total Contract Value, Annual Contract Value, Billings and revenue including: Bookings vs Total Contract Value vs Annual Contract ValueBillings - more than an invoice?Revenue - CARR, ARR and GAAP B2B SaaS companies regularly use the above terms, but unfortunately not always consistently defined, calculated and/or utilized. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike dive deep into the ICONIQ | GROWTH 2023 - The New Era of Efficient Growth Report to discussed several key report components including: Enterprise Five MetricsResiliency RubricTrade-off between Growth and EfficiencyExpansion vs New Logo contribution to New ARROperating Expenses as a % of RevenueBenchmark utilization cautions, concerns and insights Go grab the ICONIQ | Growth Report - take it for a read while listening to this episode to see if some of the key points Dave and Ray make resonate with your own personal perspectives. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike continue their discussion on the importance of measuring revenue retention. This week they cover Net Revenue Retention (NRR) - a top three B2B SaaS Metric. ' During this episode they cover many aspects of how to calculate and use Net Revenue Retention including: Cohort method versus formula methodThe impact of Usage-Based Pricing on the NRR calculationNRR benchmarks using a Good, Better, Best frameworkIdeas on how to optimize and increase NRR In addition, Dave and Ray answer three audience submitted questions - fulfilling their goal to address the questions that the B2B SaaS industry has about everything SaaS! See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

On this episode, Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike discuss four SaaS metrics from the Klaviyo S-1 including: Annual Recurring Revenue (ARR)CAC Payback PeriodGross Revenue Retention (GRR)Net Revenue Retention (NRR) This conversation covers many of the nuances of SaaS metrics and uncovers the lack of a standard way that even the best companies define and calculate SaaS metrics See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

On this episode, Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike discuss Gross Revenue Retention (GRR), aka Gross Dollar Retention (GDR), and the different nuances to consider when calculating this metric. In addition, Dave and Ray discuss why this metric is important, how to calculate GRR and how to use the results to inform decision making. The Metrics brothers discuss the following nuances of calculating Gross Revenue Retention The definition of GRRCohort vs Formula MethodWhat to exclude and include in GRRHow is GRR impacted by Product Led Growth and/or Usage-Based Pricing environmentsHow does Churn and GRR compare...are they the same thing?GRR vs NRR - which is most important? If you love the nuances and details of SaaS Metrics - this is a thought provoking episode that highlights the nuances to consider when calculating Gross Revenue Retention See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

On this episode, Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike discuss Customer Lifetime Value, and the different input variables required to calculate this compound, multi-variable metric. The Metrics brothers discuss the following nuances of calculating Customer Lifetime Value The basics - CLTV or LTVRevenue or Gross ProfitWhich number to use for churn in the formula (GRR, Logo Churn, all ARR or only available to renew ARR)Which number to use for the Average Revenue Per Account (ARPA) - new customers only or all customers If you love the nuances and details of SaaS Metrics - this is a thought provoking episode that highlights the important of gaining alignment of the CLTV and CAC metrics in your B2B SaaS company See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

On this episode, Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike discuss in detail how Usage-Based Pricing (UBP)  impacts the calculation of Customer Acquisition Cost and it's efficiency derivatives including CAC Ratio and CAC Payback Period. They discuss the three primary different types of Usage-Based Pricing Models including: Pure usage-based or consumption-based pricing with no minimum commitmentsMinimum commitment agreement that includes up to #x units and then overage $/unit over the minimumAnnual Subscription agreement to the platform and a $/unit of usage in addition to the annual subscription Each of the above models can impact what is consider Annual Recurring Revenue (ARR), Variable Recurrring Revenue (VRR) and/or pure variable revenue - and that will accordingly impact the CAC efficiency metric calculation methodology. If you love the nuances and details of SaaS Metric and how emerging GTM models impact traditional metrics calculations - this episode is for you! See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

The Metrics Brothers discuss how Product-Led Growth (PLG) including the use of Freemiums and/or Free Trials impacts the Customer Acquisition Cost (CAC) calculation. Each PLG model may have different times to value, conversion rates to paid users, different definitions of when a free user becomes a customer which all can impact the CAC calculation formula and the resultant usefulness of the metrics During this weeks episode, Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike discuss CAC Payback Period, and provide a little entertainment along the journey to using CAC Payback Period in your SaaS company. Summary See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

The Metrics Brothers discuss the use of Customer Acquisition Cost Payback Period (CAC Payback Period). On the surface CAC Payback Period (CPP) is easy to understand, yet in practice there are many nuances and considerations such as using Gross Margin in the CPP calculation, and if CAC Payback Period is an efficiency, risk or return metric. During this weeks episode, Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike discuss CAC Payback Period, and provide a little entertainment along the journey to using CAC Payback Period in your SaaS company. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

The Metrics Brothers discuss advanced topics and uses of Customer Acquisition Cost (CAC) and the CAC Ratio. On the surface CAC and CAC related metrics appear easy to understand, yet in practice there are many nuances, considerations and approaches to optimize the insights provided by CAC. During this weeks episode, Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike discuss those advanced topics, and provide a little entertainment along the journey to using CAC in your SaaS company. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

The Metrics Brothers discuss Customer Acquisition Cost (CAC) and the CAC Ratio. The two metrics are closely related, yet are fundamentally two very different SaaS metrics.  During this weeks episode, Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike discuss the value of each metric, when to use them and how to calculate each metric. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

How do B2B SaaS leaders measure the financial returns on pipeline generation? On the surface this question may seem quite simple, but one with that presents several options, especially when considering how a CFO evaluates return on investment. The Metrics Brothers, Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike dive deep into the nuances and considerations of pipeline returns on this week's episode of SaaS Talk™ with the Metrics Brothers. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

In this episode of SaaS Talk™ with the Metrics Brothers, Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth Rike discuss Pipeline Measurements See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

In this episode of SaaS Talk™ with the Metrics Brothers, Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike, they discuss all things Pipeline Generation See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

SaaS Talk™ dives deep into the world of Software as a Service, discussing the successes and hurdles that C-suite leaders in the SaaS industry encounter. Co-hosted by Ray Rike, CEO of Rev Ops Squared, and Dave Kellogg, Executive In Residence at Balderton Capital and Principal at Dave Kellogg Consulting, this podcast brings forth insights and perspectives from esteemed SaaS leaders. They share knowledge and experience on a wide array of topics, including SaaS strategy, business model innovation, customer success management, revenue operations, SaaS metrics, infrastructure and security, and data-driven decision-making. Whether you're a C-suite executive in a SaaS company, an ambitious tech entrepreneur, or simply eager to delve into the SaaS landscape, SaaS Talk has you covered. Our guests reveal their real-world experiences and practical advice, along with their perspectives on emerging trends and technologies in AI, Machine Learning, and Cloud Services. If you're eager to stay at the forefront in the rapidly evolving world of SaaS, tune in to SaaS Talk. Discover what it takes to excel as a C-suite leader in today's dynamic and ever-changing tech landscape. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.