The Creative Penn Podcast For Writers

Kickstarter has become a key part of the author business for those who want to make more money per book, connect directly with readers, and produce beautiful editions they're proud of. In this episode, I share excerpts from interviews with Oriana Leckert, Head of Publishing at Kickstarter, Russell Nohelty, and Sacha Black, alongside my own hard-won lessons from six campaigns that have now made over $140K combined. Whether you're considering your first campaign or looking to refine your process, we cover everything from overcoming your fears to rewards, fulfilment, shipping, marketing, and why I keep coming back for more. In the intro, Writing StoryBundle; Spotify Expands Audiobook Features and Printed Books; Draft2Digital Activation and Maintenance Fees; comment by Kevin McLaughlin; and Barnes & Noble Press change to Minimum Retail Price for Printed Books; AI-Assisted Artisan Author webinars. This show is supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Joanna Penn is an award-winning New York Times and USA Today bestselling author of thrillers, dark fantasy, short stories and travel memoir under J.F. Penn and also writes non-fiction for authors and hosts The Creative Penn Podcast. What Kickstarter is and why it works differently from a normal book launch The fears that held me back for almost a decade — and whether they were justified Starting small: Why you don't need sprayed edges and special hardbacks to run a successful campaign. Creative reward ideas beyond merch: digital rewards, experiential rewards, naming rights, and bundling your backlist Common mistakes that sink campaigns: overestimating your reach, getting shipping costs wrong, and not allowing enough time Fulfilment realities, printing timelines, and reinvesting profit into future stock Marketing your campaign: pre-launch signups, content marketing, email lists, social media scheduling, and Facebook/Meta ads My update for campaign #7, Bones of the Deep: what's changed, what I'm doing differently, and how AI tools are part of my process now Why I now love Kickstarter campaigns and how the spike income model fits a sustainable creative career You can find my Kickstarter campaign for Bones of the Deep here (until 5 May, 2026) and all my previous campaigns here. Introduction Jo: In this episode, I've included excerpts from my own previous solo show about Kickstarter, as well as excerpts from interviews with Oriana Leckert, the Head of Publishing at Kickstarter; Russell Nohelty, who has done lots of successful Kickstarter campaigns and teaches direct sales; and Sacha Black, who did a six-figure campaign last year. I've also added my updates to the end of the episode filling in any last thoughts. You can listen to the full episodes here: Kickstarter for Authors with Oriana Leckert The Mindset and Business of Selling Direct with Russell Nohelty Lessons Learned and Tips from Pilgrimage, My First Kickstarter Campaign Two Different Approaches to Selling Direct with Sacha Black and Joanna Penn What is Kickstarter, and why use it instead of a normal book launch? Here's Oriana Leckert, Head of Publishing at Kickstarter — and the numbers she shares will be higher now, as the episode is from February 2025. Oriana: Kickstarter is a crowdfunding platform. We are unique in the crowdfunding landscape for a few reasons. We are only for creative projects, so you can't use Kickstarter for medical bills, investment funding, or charitable donations. Every project has to create something new to share with the world. Jo: Have you got any numbers on how big the Kickstarter industry is now with publishing, or anything you can share around that? Oriana: Yeah, I would love to. First I'll tell you Kickstarter overall by the numbers. Since our inception, there have been 273,000 projects funded, eight and a half billion — with a “b” — billion dollars pledged, from more than 24 million backers. In publishing specifically, we've had 69,000 projects launched, 3.2 million unique backers, and over $380 million pledged to campaigns. I have lots of other stats, but a few things I'll share. The publishing category keeps growing The publishing category has grown year over year, every year since 2017, in terms of number of projects launched, number of projects successful, and the overall success rate. There has never been a dip since 2017. Another stat I really love about the publishing category: if you look at campaigns that have at least 25 backers, the overall success rate is 84%. I think that's really telling, because 25 backers is a little bit more than your mum, your best friend, the folks who are essentially obligated to support anything you do. So if you can get a little bit beyond that inner circle, your chances of succeeding on the platform are tremendously high. Backers are paying more — and waiting longer Another thing I wanted to call out — I just got some new numbers around this. The average backing amount per backer across the whole category has nearly doubled since 2020. We used to see an average backing around $40, and it's currently at $72 per backer. I think this is clearly around the trend of special and deluxe editions, but it's a great indication that backer behaviour on Kickstarter is just very different from your general book-buying public. People don't come here looking for 99-cent ebooks — the lowest bargain-basement prices. Folks are really willing to pay more because they understand this is a different kind of thing. It's not exactly a purchase. It really is supporting, bringing a strange and wonderful new thing into the world that wouldn't exist before. People are also much more forgiving about timelines. If you buy something from most online booksellers, you're expecting to have it in your hands within a couple of days. People wait months and sometimes years to get their Kickstarter rewards, and they don't mind if the creator is clear and transparent. You're also doing the work of demystifying the publishing process. Why does it take so long? Where are books printed? How long does it take them to ship via freight over the ocean? What do all these things really look like? So it's really interesting just figuring out what your backers want and will bear versus the general book-buying public out in the world. Kickstarter is not just for “desperate” authors anymore Oriana: People used to think Kickstarter was just for desperate folks who couldn't get a book deal through the traditional systems. The change has been so dramatic — people now understand that Kickstarter can be transformative for an author's career, and that it can work for traditional publishing, indie publishing, hybrid publishing, all kinds of authors. Kickstarter is really about collapsing the boundaries between a writer and their readers, a publisher and their fan base, any creative person and their audience. And there are so many benefits to doing that. You get to really thrill your backers with new and exciting rewards. You get to turn what can be a standard book release into a moment. You get to build your brand, your profile, get press, test out ambitious projects. You get to understand so much more about your audience and what they want and how you can give it to them. It's been really marvellous seeing the great success that people can have on our platform and outside of it. Why do a Kickstarter campaign? Jo: Why Kickstarter and not a usual book launch? Benefits for backers If you back a Kickstarter, you get special editions, bonus content, interesting merchandise, bundles, digital specials, print specials, early access. All of them pretty much are really cool books from creators you either already love or those you've never heard of, because you just want to see their cool stuff. I've started buying books from people I have never heard of because I think their books are really cool. Once you start supporting campaigns on Kickstarter, the algorithm will recommend campaigns for you. It's essentially a different way of shopping for great books and other products, and it's just another part of my ecosystem for how I shop. It's a form of direct sales, so you also have a closer connection with the creator. You can message them, for example, and they get it — rather than buying through an online retailer or bookstore. Benefits for creators In terms of benefits for creators, you get to know people in a more personal way through the campaign, messaging with people and connecting more than you would when selling through a retailer, when you don't know who is buying your books. As an author, you can make more money more quickly and retain a higher percentage of the royalties, rather than wait months or years to get paid and have a large percentage taken out by everyone down the chain — publishers, platforms, distributors, and retailers. Brandon Sanderson's $41 million Kickstarter was clearly the pinnacle of what can be achieved, but many authors are happy making a few thousand for their book project upfront and use campaigns multiple times during the year. Kickstarter takes 5% for their fee, although of course you have to factor in the cost of production and marketing. But even then, I make more profit on my book sales through selling ebooks and audiobooks direct, and also printing with BookVault, than I do with KDP Print or IngramSpark print on demand. Higher average order and faster payment Another way you make more money is that the average order per customer is higher with Kickstarter than sales on the usual stores. The average order on my campaign was £37.24 — that's around $45 US — which is at least four times higher than I might have made selling Pilgrimage in the usual way on the major retailers. You get paid two weeks

Are you tired of the hustle-harder approach to book marketing? What if a quieter, more creative strategy could work just as well — and feel a whole lot better? How can special editions, physical letters, and library outreach bring readers to your books without the daily grind of ads and social media? Sara Rosett shares her low-key approach to marketing, direct sales, and the creative business of being an indie author. In the intro, dealing with uncertainty, and Becca Syme's Quit books; The Successful Author Mindset; Building resilience and the creative lies that writers tell themselves [Wish I'd Known Then]; On Writing – Stephen King; Big Magic – Elizabeth Gilbert; This podcast is sponsored by Kobo Writing Life, which helps authors self-publish and reach readers in global markets through the Kobo eco-system. You can also subscribe to the Kobo Writing Life podcast for interviews with successful indie authors. This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Sara Rosett is the USA Today bestselling author of over 30 books across 1920s mysteries, cosy mysteries, and travel mysteries, as well as nonfiction for authors. She's also the co-host of the fantastic Wish I'd Known Then podcast. In this episode: Why low-key, personality-driven marketing can be more sustainable than aggressive advertising How to pitch your books to libraries using a simple email strategy The pros and cons of special editions, physical letters, and Kickstarter campaigns Shifting from retailer-first releases to direct sales through a Shopify store Co-writing nonfiction and the power of series bundles for reader discovery Drawing creative inspiration from other industries and international storytelling trends You can find Sara at SaraRosett.com and at WishIdKnownForWriters.com Transcript of the interview Jo: Sara Rosett is the USA Today bestselling author of over 30 books across 1920s mysteries, cosy mysteries, and travel mysteries, as well as nonfiction for authors. She's also the co-host of the fantastic Wish I'd Known Then podcast. Welcome back to the show, Sara. Sara: Hi, Jo. Thanks for having me. It's great to be back. Jo: It is great to have you back. You were last on the show five years ago, around February 2021, and we talked about writing a series — and you have a great book on that. But first up, give us an update. What does your author business look like right now, and what are you up to with your writing? How Sara's author business has evolved Sara: Well, it's changed a lot. I sat down to think about this and I thought, yes, I have got into direct sales. I've done Kickstarters. I have a Shopify store now. I've really shifted from releasing first on the retailers. I don't really do that anymore. I've done some special editions, some physical things — I'm sure we'll talk about those later. Still doing the podcast with Jamie, the Wish I'd Known Then podcast, we're still doing that. I also have a Mystery Books podcast, which is an episodic podcast that comes out in seasons. I do a short season, about one a year, so I keep doing that. Writing some nonfiction. I did the trope book with Jennifer Hilt for mystery and thriller. And writing-wise, I've created a spinoff, a short spinoff in the 1920s series. I'm still loving the 1920s timeline. But I've slowed down a little bit on the releases. Busy, but good. Jo: Busy, but good. All right, we're going to get into all of those things. Although I must say I had forgotten about your Mystery Books podcast and going to seasonal. I also had my second podcast, Books and Travel, which is now on a kind of hiatus, but going to a seasonal approach is actually really interesting. Do you find that listeners come back to that podcast? The power of a seasonal podcast Sara: Yes, and it surprises me because I've always thought you have to be weekly with a podcast to gain any traction at all, which I think is the best way to do it. You can build an audience quickly then, but I just knew I couldn't sustain that. So when I set out, I started with maybe seven to ten episodes and I did them each year — each year has had a season — and I do five to ten episodes. Readers find it, and I have highlighted specific books. I think maybe they're searching for a podcast about the Thursday Murder Club or something like that. They find it that way, and I get downloads, just steady downloads throughout the year, and I don't do much. I do some Pinterest pins for that, and that's about all I do. This is one of those things — it's the kind of low-key marketing that's low threshold, but it does work. I think if your readers are looking for stuff to listen to about the topic you write about, it could be a good way to do some low-cost, long-tail marketing. I love it. I keep doing it because I love it. Jo: That's great. Low-key marketing that fits your personality Jo: As you mentioned, I really wanted to talk to you about this low-key, non-hype marketing. We've met in person a number of times, and I think we're quite similar — we're quiet, reserved. We are quite low key. I just put content out, and yes, I do some paid ads or whatever, but I just don't find the hype marketing something I want to do. I like the attraction marketing, and I feel like I do intuitive marketing. So how does your low-key marketing fit with your personality? Sara: Well, I did try some of the more promotional marketing. I tried to have a street team back when I heard authors talking about that. I thought, oh, I'll do a Street Team, and that doesn't really match with my readers. My genre — that's just not a thing that happens a lot there. So I backed off of that, and I've tried ads. Not really interested in those. I'm not really good at them, and I don't really want to get good at them. So I've searched for ways that I can find readers that don't rely on ads. I've really focused on my newsletter, and I have two of those. I have a main one that goes out to my readers who sign up in the back of the book. And then I have a New Release in Historical Mysteries newsletter that goes out about twice a month most of the time. That's just curation. I'm saying, hey, these are the new books that are out. I feel like those are easy to do. They fit with my personality, which is like, here, let me give you some information about what's going on in this genre. I do newsletters, the promo sites, the smaller promotional paid ads — I do those occasionally. I have a rotation that I go through, and I try to get a BookBub. If I can, that's great. I've just done things that are leaning into what I feel comfortable doing. Pitching books to libraries Sara: A lot of it is finding small sites where I haven't run an ad. Let me see if there's anybody who wants to sign up or get a free book through me here. I've done some BookFunnel marketing, where you can join the group promos. I like those. And I've reached out to libraries because I feel like my books appeal to libraries. They like the 1920s historicals. It's an easy way to reach people — it's attractive to libraries. So I had a list of libraries in my state, and I have an assistant who helps me out. She emailed down the list. She picked a few every week and messaged them and said, hey, this is a local author. She lives in this state. Here are some books you might enjoy from her. And I have, because of you, large print — I got into that when you started talking about large print a couple of years ago. So I have large print case laminate books that libraries like. I just do things like that, things that are not the norm. Hardly anybody is talking about marketing to libraries. But I try to do that. Sometimes I'll just think of something. I was at the library and I thought, wow, look at all these hardcover case laminate books they have in this large print section. Maybe I should try that. And then I search out and try to figure out if I can do it. Jo: And just for people who don't know, case laminate is a hardback. Sara: Yes. Jo: That's really interesting. You mentioned the libraries and the list. Was that a list you were able to buy? I remember years ago I had someone on the show who was doing that kind of thing. Or was it that your assistant had to go through and find all the libraries, find an email address, that kind of thing? Sara: I think I found it through Sisters in Crime, which is a mystery writers' organisation, and I think they had a contact list — you could get libraries and bookstores in your area. I think I started with that and then just research. And I'm sure now with AI, you could put in where you are and say, in a radius of 250 miles, what is near me? And you could probably get a great list. Jo: Absolutely. And when the assistant is emailing, is it just information about you and then saying, would you like to buy? Because you have a big backlist, and we don't want to be sending loads of expensive hardbacks to libraries unless they're actually going to buy. What's the process to actually sell to them? The library email approach Sara: I wrote up an email and introduced myself. I leaned into the “I'm local — I live in the same city or state that you're in.” Then I described my most popular series and said the first book is this. I put a link to a PDF that they can go look at. I think it's on my website, and they can go see the books. They can print that out, of course, and it has the ISBNs. I make sure they know they can order them from Ingram, and that's all I do. Then when I had a new release, we switched it up and put that at the top. But I have all the books in the series so they know it's a series. Jo: That's fantastic. I love that. Set-and-forget promotional marketing Jo: A lot of what you were t

How can you improve your self-editing process? How can you find and work with professional editors and beta readers? How do you know when editing is done and the book is finished? With Joanna Penn In the intro, Poetry craft and business [The Indy Author Podcast]; A Mouthful of Air; How to get your book featured in local media without a publicist [Written Word Media]; thoughts on faith and code; Wild Dark Shore – Charlotte McConaghy; Bones of the Deep – J.F. Penn. Today's show is sponsored by ProWritingAid, writing and editing software that goes way beyond just grammar and typo checking. With its detailed reports on how to improve your writing and integration with writing software, ProWritingAid will help you improve your book before you send it to an editor, agent or publisher. Check it out for free or get 15% off the premium edition at www.ProWritingAid.com/joanna This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Joanna Penn is an award-winning New York Times and USA Today bestselling author of thrillers, dark fantasy, short stories and travel memoir under J.F.Penn and also writes non-fiction for authors. Overview of the editing process Self-editing How to find and work with a professional editor. My list is at www.TheCreativePenn.com/editors Beta readers, specialist readers, and sensitivity readers When is the book finished? These chapters are excerpted from How to Write a Novel: From Idea to Book by Joanna Penn, available direct or on all the usual stores. Overview of the editing process “Books aren’t written. They’re rewritten.” —Michael Crichton Thomas Hardy’s Tess of the d’Urbervilles is a classic of English literature. I studied it at school and the scene at Stonehenge still haunts me. Hardy’s Jude the Obscure influenced my decision to go to university in Oxford, a city Hardy called Christminster. His novels are still held in great esteem, which is why it’s so wonderful to see his hand-edited pages in the British Library in London, displayed in the Treasures collection. You can visit them in person or view them online. Thomas Hardy's edited manuscript of ‘Tess of the D'Urbevilles, one of England's greatest writers While his handwriting is a scrawl, it’s evident from the pages just how much editing Hardy did on this version of the manuscript. There are lines struck through, whole paragraphs crossed out, arrows moving sections around, words and sentences rewritten, and comments in the margins. Even the title is changed from A Daughter of the D’Urbervilles to Tess of the D’Urbervilles as we know it today. Those edited pages gave me hope when I saw them for the first time as a new fiction author. Not that I thought I could write a classic of English literature, but that I could learn to edit my way to a better story. There are several stages in the editing process, which I’ll outline here and then expand on in subsequent chapters. As you progress in your craft, you won’t need every stage every time, so assess with each book what kind of editing you need along the way. Self-editing The self-editing stage is your chance to improve your manuscript before anyone else sees it. For some authors, this stage might mean rewriting the entire draft. For others, it involves restructuring, adding or deleting scenes, doing line edits, and more. Developmental or structural edit An editor reads your manuscript and gives feedback on specific aspects, character, plot, story structure, and anything else pertinent to improving the novel. It is sometimes described as a manuscript critique. You will receive a report, usually ten to fifteen pages, with notes on your novel, which you can then use in another round of self-editing. While this is not always necessary, it can be a valuable step and something I appreciated particularly for my first novel when I had so much to learn. Copyediting and line editing This is the classic ‘red pen’ edit where you can expect comments and changes all over your manuscript. This edit focuses on anything that enhances the writing quality, including word choice and phrasing issues, as well as grammar, and more. Some editors split this edit into two, and there are differences between what this edit is called between countries. For some editors, a copyedit includes only attention to grammar and correctness, while a line edit focuses on improving and elevating sentences. Be clear about your expectations and that of your editor upfront. You will usually receive an MS Word document with Track Changes on as well as a style guide or style sheet and other notes, which you can then use to make revisions during another self-edit. This is the most expensive part of the process, as editors usually charge per 1,000 words based on the type of edit you want. If you need to cut your story down by 20K, then do it before you send your manuscript for a line edit! Beta readers, specialist readers, and/or sensitivity readers Some authors use different types of readers as part of their editing process. Beta readers are often part of the author’s community and are certainly fans of the genre. They read to help the author pick up any issues pre-publication. Specialist readers are those with knowledge about a topic included in the story. For example, a vulcanologist read specific chapters of Risen Gods to check that the details about volcanic eruptions were correct. Sensitivity readers check for stereotypes, biases, problematic language, and other diversity issues. You will usually receive comments or an email with page numbers or chapter numbers, or sometimes an MS Word document with Track Changes, which you then use to make revisions. Many readers provide services for the love of helping their favorite author with a novel and a mention in the acknowledgments, but there are some paid services for specialist and sensitivity readers. Proofreading Proofreading is the final check of the manuscript pre-publication for any typos or issues that might have been introduced in the editorial process. For print books, this can include a review of the print proof with formatting. You should only fix the last tiny changes at this point. Don’t make any major changes this close to publication or you may introduce entirely new errors. Do you need an editor if you intend to get an agent and a traditional publisher? You will go through an editorial process with your agent and publisher. But if you want the best chance of getting to that stage in the first place, it might also be worth working with an editor before you submit your manuscript to an agent. Look for an editor who will help you with your query letter and synopsis as part of their edit. Self-editing I love this part of the process! My self-edit is where I wrangle the chaos of the first draft into something worth reading. I have my block of marble and now I can shape it into my sculpture. The mindset shift from writer to editor, from author to reader In the idea, planning, discovery, and first-draft writing phase, it’s all about you, the writer. You turn the ideas in your head into words that you understand, characters that come alive for you, and a plot that you’re engaged with. In that first rush of creativity, you can banish critical voice and ignore any nagging doubts. But now you need to switch heads. That’s how I prefer to think about it, but you might consider it as changing hats or changing jobs. Anything to help you move from the creative, anything goes, first-draft writer to the more critical editor. There is one overriding consideration in this shift. As Jeffery Deaver says, “The reader is god.” With the editing process, you need to turn your story from something you understand into something a reader will enjoy. Writing is telepathy. It connects minds across time and space. You are reading these words and the meaning flows from my brain into your brain — but only if I craft the book well enough. The same is true of your novel. Yes, of course, you want to double down on your creative choices and make sure you achieve everything you want to with your story. But you also need to keep the reader in mind as you edit because the book is ultimately for them. Will your story have the desired effect on the reader? What might help improve their experience? How can you make sure that they are not bored or confused or jolted out of the story? What will make them read on and, at the end, close the novel with a sigh of satisfaction? My self-editing process At the end of the first draft, I print out my manuscript with two pages to each A4 page, so it looks more like a book. I put it in a folder and leave it to rest. You need fresh eyes for your edit and this ‘resting’ gives you some emotional distance. In On Writing, Stephen King suggests leaving a manuscript to rest for at least six weeks. While that is a great idea if you have the time, most authors work to deadline, whether externally set or their own timetable. Many authors — including me — are also impatient! I love this first self-edit, and as I’m still crafting the story as a discovery writer, I usually rest the manuscript for a week or two. I schedule blocks of time for editing in my Google calendar and (when not in pandemic times) I go to a café when it opens first thing in the morning. I put on my BOSE noise-cancelling headphones and edit by hand with a black ballpoint pen from page one to the end. I usually manage ten to twenty pages per editing session of a couple of hours each, but it will depend on the amount of restructuring I need to do. I scribble notes in the margins, draw arrows to move paragraphs around, write extra material on the back of pages,

What if the source of your best writing isn't something you control — but something you learn to collaborate with? How can ancient ideas about the muse, the daimon, and creative genius transform the way you approach your work? And what might happen if you stopped fighting the silence and let it become your greatest creative ally? With Matt Cardin, author of Writing at the Wellspring. In the intro, thoughts on bookstores and Toppings; 20 ways authors can signal humanity and build reader trust [Wish I'd Known Then]; Learning from Silence – Pico Iyer; ProWritingAid spring sale; Bones of the Deep – J.F. Penn. Today's show is sponsored by Draft2Digital, self-publishing with support, where you can get free formatting, free distribution to multiple stores, and a host of other benefits. Just go to www.draft2digital.com to get started. This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Matt Cardin is the multi-award-nominated author of eight books at the convergence of horror, religion, and creativity. His latest book is Writing at the Wellspring: Tapping the Source of Your Inner Genius, which is fantastic. I actually blurbed it as follows: “A guide for writers who welcome the dark and hunger for meaning. . . . If the page is a threshold, this book will show you how to cross.” You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes How Matt balances a full-time academic career with his creative writing life The ancient concept of the genius, the muse, and the daimon, and why creativity is about collaboration with something beyond yourself Why the silences that come into our creative lives, including writer's block and inertia, might actually be gifts rather than obstacles The stages of the creative process Living into the dark, and embracing uncertainty How Substack and blogging can organically grow into books You can find Matt at MattCardin.com or www.livingdark.net. Transcript of the interview with Matt Cardin Joanna: Matt Cardin is the multi-award-nominated author of eight books at the convergence of horror, religion, and creativity. His latest book is Writing at the Wellspring: Tapping the Source of Your Inner Genius, which is fantastic. I actually blurbed it as follows: “A guide for writers who welcome the dark and hunger for meaning. . . . If the page is a threshold, this book will show you how to cross.” It is a great book. So welcome to the show, Matt. Matt: Well, thank you, Jo. It's really a pleasure to be here, especially since, as you and I were briefly acknowledging before we started recording, we have overlapping interests to a great degree. So it's really great to make official contact with you. Joanna: Indeed. So, first up, before we get into the book itself— Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing. Matt: Well, I'm one of those people whose story is probably typical in some ways, in that I really wanted to do it from the time I was a child. My father was a great writer, although he was an attorney. He wasn't a professional writer. Something about books and reading when I was a child really seriously enchanted me. I was very frustrated when I was so young—and I vividly remember this—that I couldn't read, because I loved the books that were read to me. I craved being able to read them for myself. So as soon as I gained that ability in school, it was off to the races, so to speak, and for some reason, a desire to tell stories myself came along with that. Being a “writer” was one of the earliest life desires, job or career desires, that I expressed. I was one of those young people really into fantasy, horror, and science fiction. So I was reading a lot of it and trying to emulate it and write a lot of it. There was a cinematic component—I was a movie fanatic as well. I won a local Authors' Guild short story writing contest when I was a senior in high school and began trying to write stories seriously in college. Then my interest in horror and religion became dominant over time, and that's what I ended up writing about. Joanna: Has your interest turned into paid work? That's the other thing, because there's an interest and then there's making writing more of your income and your business. Matt: Right. Well, actually, although I have made and do make money from my writing, it has always, always, always remained on the side. My main career, as far as my moneymaking life, first started off in video and media production, which is formally what I got my undergraduate college degree in. Then I switched into education. I taught high school for some years, and then now for the past, good Lord, 18 years, I have been in higher education. First as English faculty who also taught some religion courses, and then now for the past several years in the administration. I'm Vice President of Academic Affairs at a college. My writing has been something that I pursued as an avocation. As far as earning money from it, that didn't happen even with my first publication, which happened on the internet in 1998, I believe, with a horror story titled “Teeth.” It was just free—I didn't get paid. That led to paid publication of that story three or four years later, when it appeared as my very first print publication in a Lovecraftian horror anthology from Del Rey titled The Children of Cthulhu. It appeared as the final story, and that was the first time I had received a paycheck. It was a professional per-word rate. Since then I've had several books published and more stories and essays and that kind of thing. I've had income sometimes from writing and sometimes I haven't. My first book came out of that story. I attended the World Horror Convention in 2001, actually before that Lovecraftian anthology was published, but it had been placed. At the World Horror Convention, which was in Seattle that year, I met one of the two editors of that book, and that led to me having my first short story collection, Divinations of the Deep, which was not for much money, but it attracted a lot of good attention and some good reviews. So it's been like that all along. I mean, I've made a couple of runs at saying I would love to just be an author, as it were, but that doesn't seem to be in the cards for me. And honestly, I'm glad it's not. I have made the most money from some academic editing projects that I've done. I created and edited a two-volume encyclopedia of the history of horror literature, for instance, for a big academic publisher. Those are work-for-hire projects that I get paid for. Making money on my own creative vision and my own creative work has been intermittent. It really has proven over time that not having my primary creative, spiritual, and philosophical drive hooked to what I earn my bread by has been a blessing. I don't want to take this thing I love and make it be how I have to grind to earn my money. I want to keep it in a protected space. That has been spontaneously what's happened with my writing career. Joanna: Yes. I think as you say, there are a lot of benefits of that, especially where you are writing at this convergence of horror, religion, and creativity. Your writing is very deep. I would say it's on the edge of academic. I don't want to say it's completely academic, because a lot of people will find that difficult. But I think Writing at the Wellspring goes very deep while still being open to non-academic readers. As you say, I think if you had wanted to make a living with your books, you would've had to have gone in at a lighter level, perhaps. Do you think that makes sense? Matt: Yes, I know what you mean. I want to specify, I know that neither you nor I are saying anything about this as any kind of criticism or condescension to anyone who does make their living as a writer. I mean, I believe you do. Joanna: Yes, exactly. Matt: And that's fine. There really are people who have had significant commercial success from books or other things they've written that don't appear to be making huge concessions to being commercial. You can make a living as a writer, I think, and really follow your muse and not feel like you have to pander or cater or cheapen it. Then there are people who have perfectly happily decided to commercialise their work and tune it in whatever way is currently popular. That's fine. Every writer, every creative person should do what is right for him or her, in my opinion. In my particular case, I think what you said is right. I do think that I might have needed to change some things, to back off, to word them differently. Whenever I've tried to exert deliberate control like that, it just turns out that it's not something that my creative spirit wants to do. I don't really feel like I'm in contact with the work anymore. I'm fine with that. I don't think I'm doing a sweet lemons type thing. It really is the way it just needs to be. If it ever proves that me doing it strictly the way I want to do it, going however deep I want regardless of trying to appeal to a paying readership—if it turns out that at some point aligns with boatloads of money coming in, that's fine. That's perfectly fine. I'd be open to that. Joanna: Yes. Matt: I would be open to that. Joanna: You mentioned muse there, and with Writing at the Wellspring, the subtitle is “Tapping the Source of Your Inner Genius.” So I think this is a good place to talk about it. As you mentioned, you are leaning into your muse and your inner genius, and you use other terms—daemon or daimon. I think sometimes people find the word “genius” particularly very difficult because it has the connotation of brilliance in some f

What does it take to write strong sentences? How do you keep writing when the world feels dark? How do you push past self-doubt, build a sustainable writing practice, and trust that your voice is enough? Anne Lamott and Neal Allen share decades of hard-won wisdom from their new book, Good Writing. In the intro, Hachette cancels allegedly AI-written book [The New Publishing Standard]; How Pangram works; Publishing industry insights from Macmillan's CEO [David Perell Podcast]; Photos from Notre Dame and Saint Chapelle; The Black Church; Bones of the Deep coming in April. Today's show is sponsored by ProWritingAid, writing and editing software that goes way beyond just grammar and typo checking. With its detailed reports on how to improve your writing and integration with writing software, ProWritingAid will help you improve your book before you send it to an editor, agent or publisher. Check it out for free or get 15% off the premium edition at www.ProWritingAid.com/joanna This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Neal Allen is a spiritual coach, former journalist, and author of non-fiction and flash fiction. Anne Lamott is the New York Times bestselling author of memoir, spiritual and creative non-fiction, and literary fiction, including Bird by Bird: Instructions on Writing and Life, which many authors, including me, count as one of the best books on writing out there. Neal and Anne are also married, and their first book together is Good Writing: 36 Ways to Improve Your Sentences You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Why strong verbs are rule number one How Anne and Neal's contrasting styles created a unique call-and-response writing guide Practical advice on finding and trusting your authentic voice across genres Why award-winning novelists typically write for only 90 minutes a day — and what that means for your writing practice How to keep writing during dark and discouraging times without giving up The uncomfortable truth about publication, longevity, and why nobody cares if you write You can find Neal at ShapesOfTruth.com and Anne on Substack. Transcript of the interview with Neal Allen and Anne Lamott Neal Allen is a spiritual coach, former journalist, and author of non-fiction and flash fiction. Anne Lamott is the New York Times bestselling author of memoir, spiritual and creative non-fiction, and literary fiction, including Bird by Bird: Instructions on Writing and Life, which many authors, including me, count as one of the best books on writing out there. Neal and Anne are also married, and their first book together is Good Writing: 36 Ways to Improve Your Sentences Jo: Welcome to the show, Neal and Anne. Anne: Thank you so much, Jo. We're happy to be here. Neal: Hi, Jo. Jo: Let us get straight into the book with rule one, which is use strong verbs. How can we implement that practically in our manuscripts when most of us don't start with the verb? We're thinking of story or we're thinking of message? Neal: Throughout the book, it's pointed out that these are rules for second drafts, right? So you've put it down. You've already got your story down, you've already got your piece down—your email, your text, it doesn't matter what. Then you stop, you pause, you go back to the beginning and you go sentence by sentence and look at them. Anne: I'd like to add that there's a lot in the book, usually on my end of the conversation, that has to do with really using these rules anywhere and everywhere. Whether you're writing a memoir or a grant proposal, I believe these rules apply to getting everything written at any time, in any phase of the work because, from Bird by Bird, I'm all about taking short assignments and writing really godawful first drafts. What is fun about writing is to have spewed out something on the page and then to get to go back right then and just start cleaning it up a bit, straightening it out, probably inevitably shortening it. One place to start is to notice how weak our verbs are. If I say “Jo walked towards us across the lawn,” it doesn't give the reader very much information. But if I say “Jo lurched towards us across the lawn,” or “Jo raced towards us across the lawn,” then right away you've improved the sentence with really two or three quick thoughts about what you actually meant with that verb and a better one. So it really applies to every level and stage of writing, but Neal's right—this is really about going back over your work sentence by sentence and seeing if you can make it stronger and cleaner and clearer. The reason it's rule one is to write strong verbs. Neal: A nice thing about strong verbs is that they often preclude the need for an adjective or an adverb, right? If I say “I trudged,” it's shorter than saying “I walked slowly and depressed.” Jo: Absolutely, and how you answered that question is kind of how the book works, right? Because Neal does an outline of the rule, and then Anne comes in and comments. Maybe you could talk a bit about that process. You are both strong characters, obviously you've been writing a long time. Talk a bit about how you made the book and how that worked as a couple as well. Neal: I'd had these rules collected for a number of years and I had them on my website. When I met Anne, she liked them and would hand them out when she was doing writing sessions. I was intrigued at some point a few years ago and looked around to see whether there was a list like mine out there. I noticed that all the other lists I saw were much shorter. Hemingway had his four rules for rewriting. Elmore Leonard, his eight, which are wonderful. Margaret Atwood has 10. The longest I saw was Martin Amis had, depending on what year it was, 14, 15 or 16—he'd go back and forth with a couple of them. I had 30-some and I wondered, well, 30-some might be enough for a book. I didn't want to write a scolding book like on grammar. I didn't want it to be academic or written like “I'm the expert, I know.” I'll just let my mind range. I'll explain the rule and then let my mind go where it went. Which, by the way, is one of the rules—show then tell. Not “show, don't tell.” It's show, then tell. Let your mind riff after you've explained something to the reader or shown something to the reader. So I wrote the book. It was too short to be published, and I showed it to Anne and I asked her, “What do I do with this?” Anne: I said, “Hey, I know something about writing, Bub,” and I asked if I could contribute my thoughts and retorts and examples and prompts to each of his rules. We were just off and running because his stuff was so solid. Mine is more maybe welcoming and giving encouragement and hope to writers because writing's hard. It's still hard for me. This is my 21st book and I'm only a third of it. Writing's hard, and what we hope is that our conversation can help people understand: a) it's hard for everybody, and b) it'll work if you just keep your butt in the chair and do the best you can, and then go back one day at a time and try to make it a little bit better. Neal: It turned out to be pretty serendipitous because just naturally I'm more of an explainer and Annie is more driving toward catharsis. So the call and response is always: I set out the rule, I explain the rule, and Annie drives it toward catharsis and usefulness. Jo: In some chapters you do disagree in some form. How did that work in the process of writing? Anne: Usually I disagree because Neal might be using words that are too big, or it might be a little bit elitist, I would think. Or of course I would point out that he's completely overeducated, whereas I'm a dropout and so I have a much plainer, more welcoming version of the rules. All of the rules are so strong, but I would feel that the way he explained it was beyond me. So I would come in and try to explain what Neal had been explaining. It was actually really funny and fun. We do come from really different directions. Neal is an explainer. He's like an ATM of information, and I am the class den mother who brings in treats and party favours on everybody's birthday. My message is always: you can really, really do this, I promise, trust me. But you start where you are, you get your butt in the chair, and then Neal comes along and says what has worked for him. He was a journalist forever, so he writes in a very different way than I write. It just turned out that the two of us together kind of make a whole. People have asked us if there were a lot of conflicts or if we really objected to the other person's take. I can tell you, Jo, there wasn't a day when we had only conflict. We were just laughing and we were excited because one of us would remember a great example from literature. We came to believe that these two very distinct voices would form one voice of encouragement for any writer. Jo: That brings us to rule number eight, which is trust your voice. I feel like this is easier when you've been writing a while. We're told to find our voice, but I remember as an early writer when I read Bird by Bird and other books and I was like, “How on earth do I find my voice?” Maybe you could talk about this more for early stage writer. How do you find and trust that voice? Neal: Boy, that is a halt for almost all of us. This follows from any intellectual pursuit that requires lots of practice and repetitions. Malcolm Gladwell's great statement, or discovery, or restatement from somebody else who discovered it, that the human brain requires 10,000 hours of repetitions before something can be allowed to just flow wit

What makes a character so compelling that readers will forgive almost anything about the plot? How do you move beyond vague flaws and generic descriptions to create people who feel pulled from real life? In this solo episode, I share 15 actionable tips for writing deep characters, curated from past interviews on the podcast. In the intro, thoughts from London Book Fair [Instagram reel @jfpennauthor; Publishing Perspectives; Audible; Spotify]; Insights from a 7-figure author business [BookBub]. This show is supported by my Patrons. Join my Community and get articles, discounts, and extra audio and video tutorials on writing craft, author business, and AI tools, at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  This episode has been created from previous episodes of The Creative Penn Podcast, curated by Joanna Penn, as well as chapters from How to Write a Novel: From Idea to Book. Links to the individual episodes are included in the transcript below. In this episode: Master the ‘Believe, Care, Invest' trifecta, how to hook readers on the very first page Define the Dramatic Question: Who is your character when the chips are down? Absolute specificity. Why “she's controlling” isn't good enough Understand the Heroine's Journey, strength through connection, not solo action Use ‘Metaphor Families' to anchor dialogue and give every character a distinctive voice Find the Diagnostic Detail, the moments that prove a character is real Writing pain onto the page without writing memoir Write diverse characters as real people, not stereotypes or plot devices Give your protagonist a morally neutral ‘hero' status. Compelling beats likeable. Build vibrant side characters for series longevity and spin-off potential Use voice as a rhythmic tool Link character and plot until they're inseparable Why discovery writers can write out of order and still build deep character Find the sensory details that make characters live and breathe More help with how to write fiction here, or in my book, How to Write a Novel. Writing Characters: 15 Tips for Writing Deep Character in Your Fiction In today’s episode, I’m sharing fifteen tips for writing deep characters, synthesised from some of the most insightful interviews on The Creative Penn Podcast over the past few years, combined with what I’ve learned across more than forty books of my own. I’ll be referencing episodes with Matt Bird, Will Storr, Gail Carriger, Barbara Nickless, and Sarah Elisabeth Sawyer. I’ll also draw on my own book, How to Write a Novel, which covers these fundamentals in detail. Whether you’re writing your first novel or your fiftieth, whether you’re a plotter or a discovery writer like me, these tips will help you create characters that readers believe in, care about, and invest in—and keep coming back for more. Let’s get into it. 1. Master the ‘Believe, Care, Invest’ Trifecta When I spoke with Matt Bird on episode 624, he laid out the three things you need to achieve on the very first page of your book or in the first ten minutes of a film. He calls it “Believe, Care, and Invest.” First, the reader must believe the character is a real person, somehow proving they are not a cardboard imitation of a human being, not just a generic type walking through a generic plot. Second, the reader must care about the character’s circumstances. And third, the reader must invest in the character’s ability to solve the story’s central problem. Matt used The Hunger Games as his primary example, and it’s brilliant. On the very first page, we believe Katniss’s voice. Suzanne Collins writes in first person with a staccato rhythm—lots of periods, short declarative sentences—that immediately grounds us in a survivalist mentality. We care because Katniss is starving. She’s protecting her little sister. And we invest because she is out there bow hunting, which Matt pointed out is one of the most badass things a character can do. She even kills a lynx two pages in and sells the pelt. We invest in her resourcefulness and grit before the plot has even begun. Matt was very clear that this has nothing to do with the character being “likable.” He said his subtitle, Writing a Hero Anyone Will Love, doesn’t mean the character has to be a good person. He described “hero” as both gender-neutral and morally neutral. A hero can be totally evil or totally good. What matters is that we believe, care, and invest. He demonstrated this beautifully by breaking down the first ten minutes of WeCrashed, where the characters of Adam and Rebekah Neumann are absolutely not likable, but we are completely hooked. Adam steals his neighbour’s Chinese food through a carefully orchestrated con involving an imaginary beer. It’s not admirable behaviour, but the tradecraft involved, as Matt put it—using a term from spy movies—makes us invest in him. We see a character trying to solve the big problem of his life, which is that he’s poor and wants to be rich, and we want to see if he can pull it off. Actionable step: Go to the first page of your current work in progress. Does it achieve all three? Does the reader believe this is a real person with a distinctive voice? Do they care about the character’s circumstances? And do they invest in the character’s ability to handle what’s coming? If even one of those three is missing, that’s your revision priority. 2. Define the Dramatic Question: Who Are They Really? Will Storr, author of The Science of Storytelling, came on episode 490 and gave one of the most powerful frameworks I’ve ever heard for character-driven fiction. He explained that the human brain evolved language primarily to swap social information—in other words, to gossip. We are wired to monitor other people, to ask the question: who is this person when the chips are down? That’s what Will calls the Dramatic Question, and it’s what he believes lies at the heart of all compelling storytelling. It’s not a question about plot. It’s a question about the character’s soul. And every scene in your novel should force the character to answer it. His example of Lawrence of Arabia is unforgettable. The Dramatic Question for the entire film is: who are you, Lawrence? Are you ordinary or are you extraordinary? At the beginning, Lawrence is a cocky, rebellious young soldier who believes his rebelliousness makes him superior. Every iconic scene in that three-hour film tests that belief. Sometimes Lawrence acts as though he truly is extraordinary—leading the Arabs into battle, being hailed as a god—and sometimes the world strips him bare and he sees himself as ordinary. Because it’s a tragedy, he never overcomes his flaw. He doubles down on his belief that he’s extraordinary until he becomes monstrous, culminating in that iconic scene where he lifts a bloody dagger and sees his own reflection with horror. Will also used Jaws to demonstrate how this works in a pure action thriller. Brody’s dramatic question is simple: are you going to be old Brody who is terrified of the water, or new Brody who can overcome that fear? Every scene where the shark appears is really asking that question. And the last moment of the film isn’t the shark blowing up. It’s Brody swimming back through the water, saying he used to be scared of the water and he can’t imagine why. Actionable step: Write down the Dramatic Question for your protagonist in a single sentence. Is it “Are you ordinary or extraordinary?” or “Are you brave enough to love again?” or “Will you sacrifice your principles for survival?” If you can’t answer this with specificity, your character might still be a sketch rather than a person. 3. Get rid of Vague Flaws, and use Absolute Specificity This was one of Will Storr’s most important points. He said that vague thinking about characters is really the enemy. When he teaches workshops and asks writers to describe their character’s flaw, most of them say something like “they’re very controlling.” And Will’s response is: that’s not good enough. Everyone is controlling. How are they controlling? What’s the specific mechanism? He gave the example of a profile he read of Theresa May during the UK’s Brexit chaos. Someone who knew her said that Theresa May’s problem was that she always thinks she’s the only adult in every room she goes into. Will said that stopped him in his tracks because it’s so precise. If you define a character with that level of specificity, you can take them and put them in any genre, any situation—a spaceship, a Victorian drawing room, a school playground—and you will know exactly how they’re going to behave. The same applies to Arthur Miller’s Willy Loman in Death of a Salesman, as Will described it: a man who believes absolutely in capitalistic success and the idea that when you die, you’re going to be weighed on a scale, just as God weighs you for sin, but now you’re weighed for success. That’s not a vague flaw. That’s a worldview you can drop into any story and watch it combust. Will made another counterintuitive point that I found really valuable: writers often think that piling on multiple traits will create a complex character, but the opposite is true. Starting with one highly specific flaw and running it through the demands of a relentless plot is what generates complexity. You end up with a far more nuanced, original character than if you’d started with a laundry list of vague attributes. Actionable step: Take your protagonist’s flaw and pressure-test it. Is it specific enough that you could place this character in any situation and predict their behaviour? If you’re stuck at “she’s stubborn” or “he’s insecure,” keep pushing. What kind of stubborn? What kind of insecure? Find the diagnostic

How do you capture something as enormous and personal as the feeling of “home” in a book? How can you navigate the chaotic discovery period in writing something new? With Roz Morris. In the intro, KU vs Wide [Written Word Media]; Podcasts Overtake Radio, book marketing implications [The New Publishing Standard]; Tips for podcast guests; The Vatican embraces AI for translation, but not for sermons [National Catholic Reporter]; NotebookLM; Self-Publishing in German; Bones of the Deep. This episode is sponsored by Publisher Rocket, which will help you get your book in front of more Amazon readers so you can spend less time marketing and more time writing. I use Publisher Rocket for researching book titles, categories, and keywords — for new books and for updating my backlist. Check it out at www.PublisherRocket.com This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Roz Morris is an award-nominated literary fiction author, memoirist, and previously a bestselling ghostwriter. She writes writing craft books for authors under the Nail Your Novel brand, and is also an editor, speaker, and writing coach. Her latest travel memoir is Turn Right at the Rainbow: A Diary of House-Hunting, Happenstance & Home. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes How being an indie author has evolved over 15 years, from ebooks-only to special editions, multi-voice audiobooks and tools to help with everything Why “home” is such a powerful emotional theme and how to turn personal experiences into universal memoir Practical craft tips on show-don't-tell, writing about real people, and finding the right book title The chaotic discovery writing phase — why some books take seven years and why that's okay Building a newsletter sustainably by finding your authentic voice (and the power of a good pet story) Low-key book marketing strategies for memoir, including Roz's community-driven “home” collage campaign You can find Roz at RozMorris.org. Transcript of the interview with Roz Morris JOANNA: Roz Morris is an award-nominated literary fiction author, memoirist, and previously a bestselling ghostwriter. She writes writing craft books for authors under the Nail Your Novel brand, and is also an editor, speaker, and writing coach. Her latest travel memoir is Turn Right at the Rainbow: A Diary of House-Hunting, Happenstance & Home. Welcome back to the show, Roz. ROZ: Hi, Jo. It's so lovely to be back. I love that we managed to catch up every now and again on what we're doing. We've been doing this for so long. JOANNA: In fact, if people don't know, the first time you came on this show was 2011, which is 15 years. ROZ: I know! JOANNA: It is so crazy. I guess we should say, we do know each other in person, in real life, but realistically we mainly catch up when you come on the podcast. ROZ: Yes, we do, and by following what we're doing around the web. So I read your newsletters, you read mine. JOANNA: Exactly. So good to return. You write all kinds of different things, but let's first take a look back. The first time you were on was 2011, 15 years ago. You've spanned traditional and indie, you've seen a lot. You know a lot of people in publishing as well. What are the key things you think have shifted over the years, and why do you still choose indie for your work? ROZ: Well, lots of things have shifted. Some things are more difficult now, some things are a lot easier. We were lucky to be in right at the start and we learned the ropes and managed to make a lot of contacts with people. Now it's much more difficult to get your work out there and noticed by readers. You have to be more knowledgeable about things like marketing and promotions. But that said, there are now much better tools for doing all this. Some really smart people have put their brains to work about how authors can get their work to the right readers, and there's also a lot more understanding of how that can be done in the modern world. Everything is now much more niche-driven, isn't it? People know exactly what kind of thriller they like or what kind of memoir they like. In the old days it was probably just, “Well, you like thrillers,” and that could be absolutely loads of things. Now we can find far better who might like our work. The tools we have are astonishing. To start with, in about 2011, we could only really produce ebooks and paperbacks. That was it. Anything else, you'd have to get a print run that would be quite expensive. Now we can get amazing, beautiful special editions made. We can do audiobooks, multi-voice audiobooks. We can do ebooks with all sorts of enhancements. We can even make apps if we want to. There's absolutely loads that creators can do now that they couldn't before, so it's still a very exciting world. JOANNA: When we first met, there was still a lot of negativity here in the UK around indie authors or self-publishing. That does feel like it's shifted. Do you think that stigma around self-publishing has changed? ROZ: I think it has really changed, yes. To start with, we were regarded as a bit of the Wild West. We were just tramping in and making our mark in places that we hadn't been invited into. Now it's changed entirely. I think we've managed to convince people that we have the same quality standards. Readers don't mind—I don't think the readers ever minded, actually, so long as the book looked right, felt right, read right. It's much easier now. It's much more of a level playing field. We can prove ourselves. In fact, we don't necessarily have to prove ourselves anymore. We just go and find readers. JOANNA: Yes, I feel like that. I have nothing to prove. I just get on with my work and writing our books and putting them out there. We've got our own audiences now. I guess I always think of it as perhaps not a shadow industry, but almost a parallel industry. You have spanned a lot of traditional publishing and you still do editing work. You know a lot of trad pub authors too. Do you still actively choose indie for a particular reason? ROZ: I do. I really like building my own body of work, and I'm now experienced enough to know what I do well, what I need advice with, and help with. I mean, we don't do all this completely by ourselves, do we? We bring in experts who will give us the right feedback if we're doing a new genre or a genre that's new to us. I choose indie because I like the control. Because I began in traditional publishing—I was making books for other people—I just learned all the trades and how to do everything to a professional standard. I love being able to apply that to my own work. I also love the way I can decide what I'm going to write next. If I was traditionally published, I would have to do something that fitted with whatever the publisher would want of me, and that isn't necessarily where my muse is taking me or what I've become interested in. I think creative humans evolve throughout their lives. They become interested in different things, different themes, different ways of expressing themselves. I began by thinking I would just write novels, and now I've found myself writing memoirs as well. That shift would have been difficult if someone else was having to make me fit into their marketing plans or what their imprint was known for. But because I've built my own audience, I can just bring them with me and say, “You might like this. It's still me. I'm just doing something different.” JOANNA: I like that phrase: “creative humans.” That's what we are. As you say, I never thought I would write a memoir, and then I wrote Pilgrimage, and I think there's probably another one on its way. We do these different things over time. Let's get into this new book, Turn Right at the Rainbow. It's about the idea of home. I've talked a lot about home on my Books And Travel Podcast, but not so much here. Why is home such an emotional topic, for both positive and negative reasons? Why did you want to explore it? ROZ: I think home is so emotional because it grows around you and it grows on you very slowly without you really realising it. As you are not looking, you suddenly realise, “Oh, it means such a lot.” I love to play this mind game with myself—if you compare what your street looks like to you now and how it looked the first time you set eyes on it, it's a world of difference. There are so many emotional layers that build up just because of the amount of time we spend in a place. It's like a relationship, a very slow-growing friendship. And as you say, sometimes it can be negative as well. I became really fascinated with this because we decided to move house and we'd lived in the same house for about 30 years, which is a lot of time. It had seen a lot of us—a lot of our lives, a lot of big decisions, a lot of good times, a lot of difficult times. I felt that was all somehow encapsulated in the place. I know that readers of certain horror or even spiritual fiction will have this feeling that a place contains emotions and pasts and all sorts of vibes that just stay in there. When we were going around looking at a house to buy, I was thinking, “How do we even know how we will feel about it?” We're moving out of somewhere that has immense amounts of feelings and associations, and we're trying to judge whether somewhere else will feel right. It just seemed like we were making a decision of cosmic proportions. It comes down so much to chance as well. You're not only just deciding, “Okay, I'd like to buy that one,” and pressing a button like on eBay and you've won it. It doesn't happen like that. There are lots of middle

How do you build a creative life that spans music, writing, film, and spiritual practice? Alicia Jo Rabins talks about weaving multiple creative strands into a sustainable career and why the best advice for any creator might simply be: just make the thing. In the intro, backlist promotion strategy [Written Word Media]; Successful author business [Novel Marketing Podcast]; Alliance of Independent Authors Indie Author Bookstore; Bones of the Deep – J.F. Penn This podcast is sponsored by Kobo Writing Life, which helps authors self-publish and reach readers in global markets through the Kobo eco-system. You can also subscribe to the Kobo Writing Life podcast for interviews with successful indie authors. This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Alicia Jo Rabins is an award-winning writer, musician, performer, as well as a Torah teacher and ritualist. She's the creator of Girls In Trouble, a feminist indie-folk song cycle about biblical women, and the award-winning film, A Kaddish for Bernie Madoff. Her latest book is a memoir, When We Are Born We Forget Everything. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights, and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Building a sustainable multi-disciplinary creative career through teaching, performance, grants, and donations Trusting instinct in the early generative stages of creativity and separating generation from editing Adapting and reimagining religious and cultural source material through music, writing, and performance The challenges of transitioning from poetry to long-form prose memoir, including choosing a lens for your story Making an independent film on a shoestring budget without waiting for Hollywood's permission Finding your creative voice and building confidence by leaning into vulnerability and returning to the practice of making You can find Alicia at AliciaJo.com. Transcript of the interview with Alicia Jo Rabins Joanna: Alicia Jo Rabins is an award-winning writer, musician, performer, as well as a Torah teacher and ritualist. She's the creator of Girls In Trouble, a feminist indie-folk song cycle about biblical women, and the award-winning film, A Kaddish for Bernie Madoff. Her latest book is a memoir, When We Are Born We Forget Everything. So welcome to the show, Alicia. Alicia: Thank you so much. I'm delighted to be here. Joanna: There is so much we could talk about. But first up— Tell us a bit more about you and how you've woven so many strands of creativity into your life and career. Alicia: Yes, well, I am a maximalist. What happened in terms of my early life is that I started writing on my own, just extremely young. I'm one of those people who always loved writing, always processed the world and managed my emotions and came to understand myself through writing. So from a very young age, I felt really committed to writing. Then I had the good fortune that my mother saw a talk show about the Suzuki method of learning violin—when you start really young and learn by ear, which is modelled after language learning. It's so much less intellectual and much more instinctual, learning by copying. She was like, that looks like a cool thing. I was three years old at the time and she found out that there was a little local branch of our music conservatory that had a Suzuki violin programme. So when I was three and a half, getting close to four, she took me down and I started playing an extremely tiny violin. Joanna: Oh, cute! Alicia: Yes, and because it was part of this conservatory that was downtown, and we were just starting at the suburban branch where we lived, there was this path that I was able to follow. As I got more and more interested in violin, I could continue basically up through the conservatory level during high school. So I had a really fantastic music education without any pressure, without any expectations or professional goals. I just kept taking these classes and one thing led to another. I grew up being very immersed in both creative writing and music, and I think just having the gift of those two parts of my brain trained and stimulated and delighted so young really changed my brain in some ways. I'll always see the world through this creative lens, which I think I'm also just set up to do personally. Then the last step of my multi-practice career is that in college I got very interested in Jewish spirituality. I'm Jewish, but I didn't grow up very religious. I didn't grow up in a Jewish community really. So I knew some basics, but not a ton. In college I started to study it and also informally learned from other people I met. I ended up going on a pretty intense spiritual quest, going to Jerusalem and immersing myself after college for two years in traditional Jewish study and practice. So that became the third strand of the braid that had already been started with music and writing. Torah study, spiritual study, and teaching became the third, and they all interweave. The last thing I'll say is that because I work in both words and music, and naturally performance because of music, it began to branch a little bit into plays, theatre, and film, just because that's where the intersection of words, performance, and music is. So that's really what brought me into that, as opposed to any specific desire to work in film. It all happened very organically. Joanna: I love this. This is so cool. We are going to circle back to a lot of this, but I have to ask you— What about work for money at any point? How did this turn into more than just hobbies and lifestyle? Alicia: Yes, absolutely. Well, I'm very fortunate that I did not graduate college with loans because my parents were able to pay for college. That was a big privilege that I just want to name, because in the States that's often not the case. So that allowed me to need to support myself, but not also pay loans, which was a real gift. What happened was I went straight from college to that school in Jerusalem, and there I was on loans and scholarship, so I didn't have to worry yet about supporting myself. Then when I came back to the States, I actually found on Craigslist a job teaching remedial Hebrew. It was essentially teaching kids at a Jewish elementary school who either had learning differences or had just entered the school late and needed to be in a different Hebrew class than the other kids in their grade. That was my first experience of really teaching, and I just absolutely fell in love with it. Although in the end, my passion is much more for teaching the text and rituals and the wrestling with the concepts, as opposed to teaching language. So all these years, while doing performance and writing and all these things, I have been teaching Jewish studies. That has essentially supported me, I would say, between 50 and 70 per cent. Then the rest has been paid gigs as a musician, whether as a front person leading a project or as what we call a sideman, playing in someone else's band. Sometimes doing theatre performances, sometimes teaching workshops. That's how I've cobbled it together. I have not had a full-time job all these years and I have supported myself through both earned income and also grants and donations. I've really tried to cultivate a little bit of a donor base, and I took some workshops early on about how to welcome donations. So I definitely try to always welcome that as well. Joanna: That is so interesting that you took a workshop on how to welcome donations. Way back in, I think 2013, I said on this show, I just don't know if I can accept people giving to support the show. Then someone on the podcast challenged me and said, but people want to support creatives. That's when I started Patreon in 2014. It was when The Art of Asking by Amanda Palmer came out and— It was this realisation that people do want to support people. So I love that you said that. Alicia: It's not easy. It's still not easy for me, and I have to grit my teeth every time I even put in my end-of-year newsletter. I just say, just a reminder that part of what makes this possible is your generous donations, and I'm so grateful to you. It's not easy. I think some people enjoy fundraising. I certainly don't instinctively enjoy it, but I have learned to think of it exactly the way that you're saying. I mean, I love donating to support other people's projects. Sometimes it's the highlight of my day. If I'm having a bad day and someone asks for help, either to feed a family or to complete a creative project, I just feel like, okay, at least I can give $36 or $25 and feel like I did something positive in the last hour, even if my project is going terribly and I'm in a fight with my kid or something. So I have to keep in mind that it is actually a privilege to give as well as a privilege to receive. Joanna: Absolutely. So let's get back into your various creative projects. The first thing I wanted to ask you, because you do have so many different formats and forms of your creativity—how do you know when an idea that comes to you should be a song, or something you want to do as a performance, or written, or a film? Tell us a bit about your creative process. Because a lot of your projects are also longer-term. Alicia: Yes. It's funny, I love planning and in some ways I'm an extreme planner. I really drive people in my family bonkers with planning, like family vacations a year in advance. In terms of my creativity, I'm very planful towards goals, but in that early generative state, I am actually pure instinct. I don't think I ever sit down and say, “I have this idea, which genre would it match with?” It's more like I sit on my bed and pick up m

How can trauma become a catalyst for creative transformation? What lessons can indie authors learn from the music industry's turbulent journey through technological disruption? With Jack Williamson. In the intro, Why recipes for publishing success don’t work and what to do instead [Self-Publishing with ALLi Podcast]; Why your book isn’t selling: metadata [Novel Marketing Podcast]; Creating a successful author business [Fantasy Writers Toolshed Podcast]; Bones of the Deep – J.F. Penn. Today's show is sponsored by ProWritingAid, writing and editing software that goes way beyond just grammar and typo checking. With its detailed reports on how to improve your writing and integration with writing software, ProWritingAid will help you improve your book before you send it to an editor, agent or publisher. Check it out for free or get 15% off the premium edition at www.ProWritingAid.com/joanna This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Jack Williamson is a psychotherapist, coach, and bestselling author who spent nearly two decades as a music industry executive. He's the founder of Music & You, his latest nonfiction book is Maybe You're The Problem, and he also writes romance under A.B. Jackson. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Finding post-traumatic growth and meaning after bereavement, and using tragedy as a catalyst for creative transformation Why your superpower can also be your Achilles heel, and how indie authors can overcome shiny object syndrome Three key lessons from the music industry: embracing change, thinking creatively about marketing, and managing pressure for better creativity The A, B, C technique for PR interviews and why marketing is storytelling through different mediums How to deal with judgment and shame around AI in the author community by understanding where people sit on the opinion-belief-conviction continuum Three AI developments coming from music to publishing: training clauses in contracts, one-click genre adaptation, and licensed AI-generated video adaptations You can find Jack at JackWilliamson.co.uk and his fiction work at ABJackson.com. Transcript of the interview with Jack Williamson Jo: Jack Williamson is a psychotherapist, coach, and bestselling author who spent nearly two decades as a music industry executive. He's the founder of Music & You, his latest nonfiction book is Maybe You're The Problem, and he also writes romance under A.B. Jackson. Welcome to the show. Jack: Thank you so much for having me, Jo. It's a real honour to be on your podcast after listening all of these years. Jo: I'm excited to talk to you. We have a lot to get into, but first up— Tell us a bit more about you and why get into writing books after years of working in music. Jack: I began my career at the turn of the millennium, basically, and I worked for George Michael and Mariah Carey's publicist, which I'm sure you can imagine was quite the introduction to the corporate world. From there I went on to do domestic and international marketing for a load of massive artists at Universal, so the equivalent of the top five publishers in the publishing world that we all work in. Then from there I had a bit of a challenge. In December 2015, I lost my brother, unfortunately to suicide. For any listener or any person that's gone through a traumatic event, it can really make you reassess everything, make you question life, make you question your purpose. When I went through that, I was thinking, well, what do I want to do? What do I want out of life? So I went on this journey for practically the next ten years. I retrained to be a psychotherapist. I created a bucket list—a list of all the things that I thought maybe my brother would've wanted to do but didn't do. One of the things was scatter his ashes at the Seven Wonders of the world. Then one of the items on my bucket list was to write a book. The pandemic hit. It was a challenge for all of us, as you've spoken about so much on this wonderful podcast. I thought, well, why not? Why not write this book that I've wanted to write? I didn't know when I was going to do it because I was always so busy, and then the pandemic happened and so I wrote a book. From there, listening to your wonderful podcast, I've learned so much and been to so many conferences and learned along the way. So now I've written five books and released three. Jo: That's fantastic. I mean, regular listeners to the show know that I talk about death and grief and all of this kind of thing, and it's interesting that you took your brother's ashes to the Seven Wonders of the world. Death can obviously be a very bad, negative thing for those left behind, but it seems like you were able to reframe your brother's experience and turn that into something more positive for your life rather than spiralling into something bad. So if people listening are feeling like something happens, whether it's that or other things— How can we reframe these seemingly life-ending situations in a more positive way? Jack: It is very hard and there's no one way to do it. I think as you always say, I never want to tell people what to do or what to think. I want to show them how to think and how they can approach things differently or from a different perspective. I can only speak from my journey, but we call it in therapeutic language, post-traumatic growth. It is, how do you define it so it doesn't define you? Because often when you have a bereavement of a loved one, a family member, it can be very traumatic, but how can you take meaning and find meaning in it? There's a beautiful book called Man's Search for Meaning, and the name of the author escapes me right now, but he says— Jo: Viktor Frankl. Jack: Yes. Everyone quotes it as one of their favourite books, and one of my favourite lines is, “Man can take everything away from you, apart from the ability to choose one thought over the other.” I think it's so true because we can make that choice to choose what to think. So in those moments when we are feeling bad, when we're feeling down, we want to honour our feelings, but we don't necessarily want to become them. We want to process that, work through, get the support system that we need. But again, try to find meaning, try to find purpose, try to understand what is going on, and then pay it forward. Irrespective of your belief system, we all yearn for purpose. We all yearn for being connected to something bigger than ourselves. If we can find that through bereavement maybe, or through a traumatic incident, then hopefully we can come through the other side and have that post-traumatic growth. Jo: I love that phrase, post-traumatic growth. That's so good. Obviously people think about post-traumatic anything as like PTSD—people immediately think a sort of stress disorder, like it's something that makes things even worse. I like that you reframed it in that way. Obviously I think the other thing is you took specific action. You didn't just think about it. You travelled, you retrained, you wrote books. So I think also it's not just thinking. In fact, thinking about things can sometimes make it worse if you think for too long, whereas taking an action I think can be very strong as well. Jack: Ultimately we are human beings as opposed to human doings, but actually being a human doing from time to time can be really helpful. Actually taking steps forward, doing things differently, using it as a platform to move forward and to do things that maybe you didn't before. When you are confronted with death, it can actually make you question your own mortality and actually question, am I just coasting along? Am I stuck in a rut? Could I be doing something differently? One of the things that bereavement, does is it holds a mirror up to ourselves and it makes us question, well, what do we want from our life? Are we here to procreate? Are we here to make a difference? Some of us can't procreate, or some of us choose not to procreate, but we can all make a difference. And it's, how do we do that? Where do we do that? When do we do that? Jo: That's interesting. I was thinking today about service and gratitude. I'm doing this Master's and I was reading some theology stuff today, and service and gratitude, I think if you are within a religious tradition, are a normal part of that kind of religious life. Whether it's service to God and gratitude to God, or service and gratitude to others. I was thinking that these two things, service and gratitude, can actually really help reframe things as well. Who can we serve? As authors, we're serving our readers and our community. What can we be grateful about? That's often our readers and our community as well. So I don't know, that helped me today—thinking about how we can reframe things, especially in the world we're in now where there's a lot of anger and grief and all kinds of things. Jack: That's what we've got to look at. We are here to serve. Again, that can take different shapes, different forms. Some of us work in the service industry. I provide a service as a psychotherapist, you serve your listeners with knowledge and information that you gather and dispense through the research you do or the guests you have on. We serve readers of the different genres that we write in. It's what ways can we serve, how can we serve? Again, I think we all, if we can and when we can, should pay it forward. Someone said this to me once in the music industry: be careful who you meet on the way up and how you treat them on the way up, because invariably you'll meet them on the way down. So if you ca

How do you stay audacious in a world that's noisier and more saturated than ever? How might the idea of creative rhythm change the way you write? Lara Bianca Pilcher gives her tips from a multi-passionate creative career. In the intro, becoming a better writer by being a better reader [The Indy Author]; How indie authors can market literary fiction [Self-Publishing with ALLi]; Viktor Wynd’s Museum of Curiosities; Seneca’s On the Shortness of Life; All Men are Mortal – Simone de Beauvoir; Surface Detail — Iain M. Banks; Bones of the Deep – J.F. Penn. This episode is sponsored by Publisher Rocket, which will help you get your book in front of more Amazon readers so you can spend less time marketing and more time writing. I use Publisher Rocket for researching book titles, categories, and keywords — for new books and for updating my backlist. Check it out at www.PublisherRocket.com This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Lara Bianca Pilcher is the author of Audacious Artistry: Reclaim Your Creative Identity and Thrive in a Saturated World. She's also a performing artist and actor, life and creativity coach, and the host of the Healthy Wealthy Wise Artist podcast. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Why self-doubt is a normal biological response — and how audacity means showing up anyway The difference between creative rhythm and rigid discipline, and why it matters for writers How to navigate a saturated world with intentional presence on social media Practical strategies for building a platform as a nonfiction author, including batch content creation The concept of a “parallel career” and why designing your life around your art beats waiting for a big break Getting your creative rhythm back after crisis or burnout through small, gentle steps You can find Lara at LaraBiancaPilcher.com. Transcript of the interview with Lara Bianca Pilcher Lara Bianca Pilcher is the author of Audacious Artistry: Reclaim Your Creative Identity and Thrive in a Saturated World. She's also a performing artist and actor, life and creativity coach, and the host of the Healthy Wealthy Wise Artist podcast. Welcome, Lara. Lara: Thank you for having me, Jo. Jo: It's exciting to talk to you today. First up— Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing. Lara: I'm going to call myself a greedy creative, because I started as a dancer, singer, and actress in musical theatre, which ultimately led me to London, the West End, and I was pursuing that in highly competitive performance circles. A lot of my future works come from that kind of place. But when I moved to America—which I did after my season in London and a little stint back in Australia, then to Atlanta, Georgia—I had a visa problem where I couldn't work legally, and it went on for about six months. Because I feel this urge to create, as so many of your listeners probably relate to, I was not okay with that. So that's actually where I started writing, in the quietness, with the limits and the restrictions. I've got two children and a husband, and they would go off to school and work and I'd be home thinking, ha. In that quietness, I just began to write. I love thinking of creativity as a mansion with many rooms, and you get to pick your rooms. I decided, okay, well the dance, acting, singing door is shut right now—I'm going to go into the writing room. So I did. Jo: I have had a few physical creatives on the show. Obviously one of your big rooms in your mansion is a physical room where you are actually performing and moving your body. I feel like this is something that those of us whose biggest area of creativity is writing really struggle with—the physical side. How do you think that physical practice of creativity has helped you in writing, which can be quite constrictive in that way? Lara: It's so good that you asked this because I feel what it trained me to do is ignore noise and show up. I don't like the word discipline—most of us get a bit uncomfortable with it, it's not a nice word. What being a dancer did was teach me the practice of what I like to call a rhythm, a creative rhythm, rather than a discipline, because rhythm ebbs and flows and works more with who we are as creatives, with the way creativity works in our body. That taught me: go to the barre over and over again—at the ballet barre, I'm talking about, not the pub. Go there over and over again. Warm up, do the work, show up when you don't feel like it. thaT naturally pivoted over to writing, so they're incredibly linked in the way that creativity works in our body. Jo: Do you find that you need to do physical practice still in order to get your creativity moving? I'm not a dancer. I do like to shake it around a bit, I guess. But I mainly walk. If I need to get my creativity going, I will walk. If people are stuck, do you think doing something physical is a good idea? Lara: It is, because the way that our body and our nervous system works—without going into too much boring science, although some people probably find it fascinating—is that when we shake off that lethargic feeling and we get blood flowing in our body, we naturally feel more awake. Often when you're walking or you're doing something like dance, your brain is not thinking about all of the big problems. You might be listening to music, taking in inspiration, taking in sunshine, taking in nature, getting those endorphins going, and that naturally leads to the brain being able to psychologically show up more as a creative. However, there are days, if I'm honest, where I wake up and the last thing I want to do is move. I want to be in a little blanket in the corner of the room with a hot cocoa or a coffee and just keep to myself. Those aren't always the most creative days, but sometimes I need that in my creative rhythm, and that's okay too. Jo: I agree. I don't like the word discipline, but as a dancer you certainly would've had to do that. I can't imagine how competitive it must be. I guess this is another thing about a career in dance or the physical arts. Does it age out? Is it really an ageist industry? Whereas I feel like with writing, it isn't so much about what your body can do anymore. Lara: That is true. There is a very real marketplace, a very real industry, and I'm careful because there's two sides to this coin. There is the fact that as we get older, our body has trouble keeping up at that level. There's more injuries, that sort of thing. There are some fit women performing in their sixties and seventies on Broadway that have been doing it for years, and they are fine. They'll probably say it's harder for some of them. Also, absolutely, I think there does feel in the professional sense like there can be a cap. A lot of casting in acting and in that world feels like there's fewer and fewer roles, particularly for women as we get older, but people are in that space all the time. There's a Broadway dancer I know who is 57, who's still trying to make it on Broadway and really open about that, and I think that's beautiful. So I'm careful with putting limits, because I think there are always outliers that step outside and go, “Hey, I'm not listening to that.” I think there's an audience for every age if you want there to be and you make the effort. But at the same time, yes, there is a reality in the industry. Totally. Jo: Obviously this show is not for dancers. I think it was more framing it as we are lucky in the writing industry, especially in the independent author community, because you can be any age. You can be writing on your deathbed. Most people don't have a clue what authors look like. Lara: I love that, actually. It's probably one of the reasons I maybe subconsciously went into writing, because I'm like, I want to still create and I'm getting older. It's fun. Jo: That's freeing. Lara: So freeing. It's a wonderful room in the mansion to stay in until the day I die, if I must put it that way. Jo: I also loved you mentioning that Broadway dancer. A lot of listeners write fiction—I write fiction as well as nonfiction—and it immediately makes me want to write her story. The story of a 57-year-old still trying to make it on Broadway. There's just so much in that story, and I feel like that's the other thing we can do: writing about the communities we come from, especially at different ages. Let's get into your book, Audacious Artistry. I want to start on this word audacity. You say audacity is the courage to take bold, intentional risks, even in the face of uncertainty. I read it and I was like, I love the sentiment, but I also know most authors are just full of self-doubt. Bold and audacious. These are difficult words. So what can you say to authors around those big words? Lara: Well, first of all, that self-doubt—a lot of us don't even know what it is in our body. We just feel it and go, ugh, and we read it as a lack of confidence. It's not that. It's actually natural. We all get it. What it is, is our body's natural ability to perceive threat and keep us safe. So we're like, oh, I don't know the outcome. Oh, I don't know if I'm going to get signed. Oh, I don't know if my work's going to matter. And we read that as self-doubt—”I don't have what it takes” and those sorts of things. That's where I say no. The reframe, as a coach, I would say, is that it's normal. Self-doubt is normal. Everyone has it. But audacity is saying, I have it, but I'm going to show up in the world anyway. There is this thing of believing, even in the doubt, that I have something to say. I like to think of i

How do you juggle multiple book projects, a university teaching role, Kickstarter campaigns, and rock albums—all without burning out? What does it take to build a writing career that spans decades, through industry upheavals and personal setbacks? Kevin J. Anderson shares hard-won lessons from his 40+ year career writing over 190 books. In the intro, Draft2Digital partners with Bookshop.org for ebooks; Spotify announces PageMatch and print partnership with Bookshop.org; Eleven Audiobooks; Indie author non-fiction books Kickstarter; Bones of the Deep – J.F. Penn This podcast is sponsored by Kobo Writing Life, which helps authors self-publish and reach readers in global markets through the Kobo eco-system. You can also subscribe to the Kobo Writing Life podcast for interviews with successful indie authors. This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Kevin J. Anderson is the multi-award-winning and internationally bestselling author of over 190 books across different genres, with over 24 million copies in print across 34 languages. He's also the director of publishing at Western Colorado University, as well as a publisher at WordFire Press, an editor and rock album lyricist, and he's co-written Dune books and worked on the recent Dune movies and TV show. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights, and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Managing multiple projects at different stages to maximise productivity without burning out Building financial buffers and multiple income streams for a sustainable long-term career Adapting when life disrupts your creative process, from illness to injury Lessons learned from transitioning between traditional publishing, indie, and Kickstarter Why realistic expectations and continuously reinventing yourself are essential for longevity The hands-on publishing master's program at Western Colorado University You can find Kevin at WordFire.com and buy his books direct at WordFireShop.com. Transcript of Interview with Kevin J. Anderson Jo: Kevin J. Anderson is the multi award-winning and internationally bestselling author of over 190 books across different genres, with over 24 million copies in print across 34 languages. He's also the Director of Publishing at Western Colorado University, as well as a publisher at WordFire Press, an editor, a rock album lyricist, and he's co-written Dune books and worked on the recent Dune movies and TV show. Welcome back to the show, Kevin. Kevin: Well, thanks, Joanna. I always love being on the show. Jo: And we're probably on like 200 books and like 50 million copies in print. I mean, how hard is it to keep up with all that? Kevin: Well, it was one of those where we actually did have to do a list because my wife was like, we really should know the exact number. And I said, well, who can keep track because that one went out of print and that's an omnibus. So does it count as something else? Well, she counted them. But that was a while ago and I didn't keep track, so… Jo: Right. Kevin: I'm busy and I like to write. That's how I've had a long-term career. It's because I don't hate what I'm doing. I've got the best job in the world. I love it. Jo: So that is where I wanted to start. You've been on the show multiple times. People can go back and have a listen to some of the other things we've talked about. I did want to talk to you today about managing multiple priorities. You are a director of publishing at Western Colorado University. I am currently doing a full-time master's degree as well as writing a novel, doing this podcast, my Patreon, all the admin of running a business, and I feel like I'm busy. Then I look at what you do and I'm like, this is crazy. People listening are also busy. We're all busy, right. But I feel like it can't just be writing and one job—you do so much. So how do you manage your time, juggle priorities, your calendar, and all that? Kevin: I do it brilliantly. Is that the answer you want? I do it brilliantly. It is all different things. If I were just working on one project at a time, like, okay, I'm going to start a new novel today and I've got nothing else on my plate. Well, that would take me however long to do the research and the plot. I'm a full-on plotter outliner, so it would take me all the while to do—say it's a medieval fantasy set during the Crusades. Well, then I'd have to spend months reading about the Crusades and researching them and maybe doing some travel. Then get to the point where I know the characters enough that I can outline the book and then I start writing the book, and then I start editing the book, which is a part that I hate. I love doing the writing, I hate doing the editing. Then you edit a whole bunch. To me, there are parts of that that are like going to the dentist—I don't like it—and other parts of it are fun. So by having numerous different projects at different stages, all of which require different skill sets or different levels of intensity— I can be constantly switching from one thing to another and basically be working at a hundred percent capacity on everything all the time. And I love doing this. So I'll be maybe writing a presentation, which is what I was doing before we got on this call this morning, because I'm giving a new keynote presentation at Superstars, which is in a couple of weeks. That's another thing that was on our list—I helped run Superstars. I founded that 15 years ago and it's been going on. So I'll be giving that talk. Then we just started classes for my publishing grad students last week. So I'm running those classes, which meant I had to write all of the classes before they started, and I did that. I've got a Kickstarter that will launch in about a month. I'm getting the cover art for that new book and I've got to write up the Kickstarter campaign. And I have to write the book. I like to have the book at least drafted before I run a Kickstarter for it. So I'm working on that. A Kickstarter pre-launch page should be up a month before the Kickstarter launches, and the Kickstarter has to launch in early March, so that means early February I have to get the pre-launch page up. So there's all these dominoes. One thing has to go before the next thing can go. During the semester break between fall semester—we had about a month off—I had a book for Blackstone Publishing and Weird Tales Presents that I had to write, and I had plotted it and I thought if I don't get this written during the break, I'm going to get distracted and I won't finish it. So I just buckled down and I wrote the 80,000-word book during the month of break. This is like Little House on the Prairie with dinosaurs. It's an Amish community that wants to go to simpler times. So they go back to the Pleistocene era where they're setting up farms and the brontosaurus gets into the cornfield all the time. Jo: That sounds like a lot of fun. Kevin: That's fun. So with the grad students that I have every week, we do all kinds of lectures. Just to reassure people, I am not at all an academic. I could not stand my English classes where you had to write papers analysing this and that. My grad program is all hands-on, pragmatic. You actually learn how to be a publisher when you go through it. You learn how to design covers, you learn how to lay things out, you learn how to edit, you learn how to do fonts. One of the things that I do among the lectures every week or every other week, I just give them something that I call the real world updates. Like, okay, this is the stuff that I, Kevin, am working on in my real world career because the academic career isn't like the real world. So I just go listing about, oh, I designed these covers this week, and I wrote the draft of this dinosaur homestead book, and then I did two comic scripts, and then I had to edit two comic scripts. We just released my third rock album that's based on my fantasy trilogy. And I have to write a keynote speech for Superstars. And I was on Joanna Penn's podcast. And here's what I'm doing. Sometimes it's a little scary because I read it and I go, holy crap, I did a lot of stuff this week. Jo: So I manage everything on Google Calendar. Do you have systems for managing all this? Because you also have external publishers, you have actual dates when things actually have to happen. Do you manage that yourself or does Rebecca, your wife and business partner, do that? How do you manage your calendar? Kevin: Well, Rebecca does most of the business stuff, like right now we have to do a bunch of taxes stuff because it's the new year and things. She does that and I do the social interaction and the creating and the writing and stuff. My assistant Marie Whittaker, she's a big project management person and she's got all these apps on how to do project managing and all these sorts of things. She tried to teach me how to use these apps, but it takes so much time and organisation to fill the damn things out. So it's all in my head. I just sort of know what I have to do. I just put it together and work on it and just sort of know this thing happens next and this thing happens next. I guess one of the ways is when I was in college, I put myself through the university by being a waiter and a bartender. As a waiter and a bartender, you have to juggle a million different things at once. This guy wants a beer and that lady wants a martini, and that person needs to pay, and this person's dinner is up on the hot shelf so you've got to deliver it before it gets cold. It's like I learned how to do millions of things and keep them all organised, and that's the way it worked.

How can indie authors raise their game through academic-style rigour? How might AI tools fit into a thoughtful research process without replacing the joy of discovery? Melissa Addey explores the intersection of scholarly discipline, creative writing, and the practical realities of building an author career. In the intro, mystery and thriller tropes [Wish I'd Known Then]; The differences between trad and indie in 2026 [Productive Indie Fiction Writer]; Five phases of an author business [Becca Syme]; Bones of the Deep – J.F. Penn; Today's show is sponsored by Bookfunnel, the essential tool for your author business. Whether it’s delivering your reader magnet, sending out advanced copies of your book, handing out ebooks at a conference, or fulfilling your digital sales to readers, BookFunnel does it all. Check it out at bookfunnel.com/thecreativepenn This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Melissa Addey is an award-winning historical fiction author with a PhD in creative writing from the University of Surrey. She was the Leverhulme Trust Writer in Residence at the British Library, and now works as campaigns lead for the Alliance of Independent Authors. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Making the leap from a corporate career to full-time writing with a young family Why Melissa pursued a PhD in creative writing and how it fuelled her author business What indie authors can learn from academic rigour when researching historical fiction The problems with academic publishing—pricing, accessibility, and creative restrictions Organising research notes, avoiding accidental plagiarism, and knowing when to stop researching Using AI tools effectively as part of the research process without losing your unique voice You can find Melissa at MelissaAddey.com. Transcript of the interview with Melissa Addey JOANNA: Melissa Addey is an award-winning historical fiction author with a PhD in creative writing from the University of Surrey. She was the Leverhulme Trust Writer in Residence at the British Library, and now works as campaigns lead for the Alliance of Independent Authors. Welcome back to the show, Melissa. MELISSA: Hello. Thank you for having me. JOANNA: It's great to have you back. You were on almost a decade ago, in December 2016, talking about merchandising for authors. That is really a long time ago. So tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and self-publishing. MELISSA: I had a regular job in business and I was writing on the side. I did a couple of writing courses, and then I started trying to get published, and that took seven years of jumping through hoops. There didn't seem to be much progress. At some point, I very nearly had a small publisher, but we clashed over the cover because there was a really quite hideous suggestion that was not going to work. I think by that point I was really tired of jumping through hoops, really trying to play the game traditional publishing-wise. I just went, you know what? I've had enough now. I've done everything that was asked of me and it's still not working. I'll just go my own way. I think at the time that would've been 2015-ish. Suddenly, self-publishing was around more. I could see people and hear people talking about it, and I thought, okay, let's read everything there is to know about this. I had a little baby at the time and I would literally print off stuff during the day to read—probably loads of your stuff—and read it at two o'clock in the morning breastfeeding babies. Then I'd go, okay, I think I understand that bit now, I'll understand the next bit, and so on. So I got into self-publishing and I really, really enjoyed it. I've been doing it ever since. I'm now up to 20 books in the last 10 or 11 years. As you say, I did the creative writing PhD along the way, working with ALLi and doing workshops for others—mixing and matching lots of different things. I really enjoy it. JOANNA: You mentioned you had a job before in business. Are you full-time in all these roles that you're doing now, or do you still have that job? MELISSA: No, I'm full-time now. I only do writing-related things. I left that in 2015, so I took a jump. I was on maternity leave and I started applying for jobs to go back to, and I suddenly felt like, oh, I really don't want to. I want to do the writing. I thought, I've got about one year's worth of savings. I could try and do the jump. I remember saying to my husband, “Do you think it would be possible if I tried to do the jump? Would that be okay?” There was this very long pause while he thought about it. But the longer the pause went on, the more I was thinking, ooh, he didn't say no, that is out of the question, financially we can't do that. I thought, ooh, it's going to work. So I did the jump. JOANNA: That's great. I did something similar and took a massive pay cut and downsized and everything back in the day. Having a supportive partner is so important. The other thing I did—and I wonder if you did too—I said to Jonathan, my husband, if within a year this is not going in a positive direction, then I'll get another job. How long did you think you would leave it before you just gave up? And how did that go? Because that beginning is so difficult, especially with a new baby. MELISSA: I thought, well, I'm at home anyway, so I do have more time than if I was in a full-time job. The baby sleeps sometimes—if you're lucky—so there are little gaps where you could really get into it. I had a year of savings/maternity pay going on, so I thought I've got a year. And the funny thing that happened was within a few months, I went back to my husband and I was like, I don't understand. I said, all these doors are opening—they weren't massive, but they were doors opening. I said, but I've wanted to be a writer for a long time and none of these doors have opened before. He said, “Well, it's because you really committed. It's because you jumped. And when you jump, sometimes the universe is on board and goes, yes, all right then, and opens some doors for you.” It really felt like that. Even little things—like Mslexia (a writing magazine) gave me a little slot to do an online writer-in-residence thing. Just little doors opened that felt like you were getting a nod, like, yes, come on then, try. Then the PhD was part of that. I applied to do that and it came with a studentship, which meant I had three years of funding coming in. That was one of the biggest creative gifts that's ever been given to me—three years of knowing you've got enough money coming in that you can just try and make it work. By the time that finished, the royalties had taken over from the studentship. That was such a gift. JOANNA: A couple of things there. I've got to ask about that funding. You're saying it was a gift, but that money didn't just magically appear. You worked really hard to get that funding, I presume. MELISSA: I did, yes. You do have to do the work for it, just to be clear. My sister had done a PhD in an entirely different subject. She said, “You should do a PhD in creative writing.” I said, “That'd be ridiculous. Nobody is going to fund that. Who's going to fund that?” She said, “Oh, they might. Try.” So I tried, and the deadline was something stupid like two weeks away. I tried and I got shortlisted, but I didn't get it. I thought, ah, but I got shortlisted with only two weeks to try. I'll try again next year then. So then I tried again the next year and that's when I got it. It does take work. You have to put in quite a lot of effort to make your case. But it's a very joyful thing if you get one. JOANNA: So let's go to the bigger question: why do a PhD in creative writing? Let's be clear to everyone—you don't need even a bachelor's degree to be a successful author. Stephen King is a great example of someone who isn't particularly educated in terms of degrees. He talks about writing his first book while working at a laundry. You can be very successful with no formal education. So why did you want to do a PhD? What drew you to academic research? MELISSA: Absolutely. I would briefly say, I often meet people who feel they must do a qualification before they're allowed to write. I say, do it if you'd like to, but you don't have to. You could just practise the writing. I fully agree with that. It was a combination of things. I do actually like studying. I do actually enjoy the research—that's why I do historical research. I like that kind of work. So that's one element. Another element was the funding. I thought, if I get that funding, I've got three years to build up a back catalogue of books, to build up the writing. It will give me more time. So that was a very practical financial issue. Also, children. My children were very little. I had a three-year-old and a baby, and everybody went, “Are you insane? Doing a PhD with a three-year-old and a baby?” But the thing about three-year-olds and babies is they're quite intellectually boring. Emotionally, very engaging—on a number of levels, good, bad, whatever—but they're not very intellectually stimulating. You're at home all day with two small children who think that hide and seek is the highlight of intellectual difficulty because they've hidden behind the curtains and they're shuffling and giggling. I felt I needed something else. I needed something for me that would be interesting. I've always enjoyed passing on knowledge. I've always enjoyed teaching people, workshops, in whatever field I was in. I thought, if I want to do that for writing at

Could live selling be the next big opportunity for indie authors? Adam Beswick shares how organic marketing, live streaming, and direct sales are transforming his author career—and how other writers can do the same. In the intro, book marketing principles [Self-Publishing with ALLi]; Interview with Tobi Lutke, the CEO and co-founder of Shopify [David Senra]; The Writer's Mind Survey; Bones of the Deep – J.F. Penn; Alliance of Independent Authors Indie Author Lab. Today's show is sponsored by ProWritingAid, writing and editing software that goes way beyond just grammar and typo checking. With its detailed reports on how to improve your writing and integration with writing software, ProWritingAid will help you improve your book before you send it to an editor, agent or publisher. Check it out for free or get 15% off the premium edition at www.ProWritingAid.com/joanna This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Adam Beswick is a bestselling fantasy author and an expert in TikTok marketing for authors, as well as a former NHS mental health nurse. Adam went full-time as an indie author in 2023 and now runs AP Beswick Publications. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes How Adam scaled from garden office to warehouse, with his wife leaving her engineering career to join the business Why organic marketing (free video content) beats paid ads for testing what resonates with readers The power of live selling: earning £3,500 in one Christmas live stream through TikTok shop Mystery book bags: a gamified approach to selling that keeps customers coming back Building an email list of actual buyers through direct sales versus relying on platform algorithms Why human connection matters more than ever in the age of AI-generated content You can find Adam at APBeswickPublications.com and on TikTok as @a.p_beswick_publications. Transcript of interview with Adam Beswick Jo: Adam Beswick is a bestselling fantasy author and an expert in TikTok marketing for authors, as well as a former NHS mental health nurse. Adam went full-time as an indie author in 2023 and now runs AP Beswick Publications. Welcome back to the show, Adam. Adam: Hi there, and thank you for having me back. Jo: Oh, I'm super excited to talk to you today. Now, you were last on the show in May 2024, so just under two years, and you had gone full-time as an author the year before that. So just tell us— What's changed for you in the last couple of years? What does your author business look like now? Adam: That is terrifying to hear that it was that long ago, because it genuinely feels like it was a couple of months ago. Things have certainly been turbocharged since we last spoke. Last time we spoke I had a big focus on going into direct sales, and I think if I recall correctly, we were just about to release a book by Alexis Brooke, which was the first book in a series that we had worked with another author on, which was the first time we were doing that. Since then, we now have six authors on our books, with a range of full agreements or print-only deals. With that focus of direct selling, we have expanded our TikTok shop. In 2024, I stepped back from TikTok shop just because of constraints around my own time. We took TikTok shop seriously again in 2025 and scaled up to a six-figure revenue stream throughout 2025, effectively starting from scratch. That means we have had to go from having an office pod in the garden, to my wife now has left her career as a structural engineer to join the business because there was too much for me to manage. We went from this small office space, to now we have the biggest office space in our office block because we organise our own print runs and do all our distribution worldwide from what we call “AP HQ.” Jo: And you don't print books, but you have a warehouse. Adam: Yes, we have a warehouse. We work with different printers to order books in. We print quite large scale—well, large scale to me—volumes of books. Then we have them ordered to here, and then we will sign them all and distribute everything from here. Jo: Sarah, your wife, being a structural engineer—it seems like she would be a real help in organising a business of warehousing and all of that. Has that been great [working with your wife]? Because I worked with my husband for a while and we decided to stop doing that. Adam: Well, we're still married, so I'm taking that as a win! And funnily enough, we don't actually fall out so much at work. When we do, it's more about me being quite chaotic with how I work, but also I can at times be quite inflexible about how I want things to be done. But what Sarah's fantastic at is the organisation, the analytics. She runs all the logistical side of things. When we moved into the bigger office space, she insisted on us having different offices. She's literally shoved me on the other side of the building. So I'm out the way—I can just come in and write, come and do my bit to sign the books, and then she can just get on with organising the orders and getting those packed and sent out to readers. She manages all the tracking, the customs—all the stuff that would really bog me down. I wouldn't say she necessarily enjoys it when she's getting some cranky emails from people whose books might have gone missing or have been held up at customs, but she's really good at that side. She's really helped bring systems in place to make sure the fulfilment side is as smooth as possible. Jo: I think this is so important, and I want everyone to hear you on this. Because at heart, you are the creative, you are a writer, and sure you are building this business, but I feel like one of the biggest mistakes that creative-first authors make is not getting somebody else to help them. It doesn't have to be a spouse, right? It can also be another professional person. Sacha Black's got various people working for her. I think you just can't do it alone, right? Adam: Absolutely not. I would have drowned long before now. When Sarah joined the team, I was at a position where I'd said to her, “Look, I need to look at bringing someone in because I'm drowning.” It was only then she took a look at where her career was, and she'd done everything she wanted to do. She was a senior engineer. She'd completed all the big projects. I mean, this is a woman who's designed football stands across the UK and some of the biggest barn conversions and school conversions and things like that. She'd done everything professionally that she'd wanted to and was perhaps losing that passion that she once had. So she said she was interested, and we said, “Look, why don't you come and spend a bit of time working with me within the business, see whether it works for you, see if we can find an area that works for you—not you working for the business, the business working for you—that we maintain that work-life balance.” And then if it didn't work, we were in a position where we could set her up to start working for herself as an engineer again, but under her own terms. Then we just went from strength to strength. We made it through the first year. I think we made it through the first year without any arguments, and she's now been full-time in the business for two years. Jo: I think that's great. Really good to hear that. Because when I met you, probably in Seville I think it was, I was like, “You are going to hit some difficulty,” because I could see that if you were going to scale as fast as you were aiming to— There are problems of scale, right? There's a reason why lots of us don't want a bloomin' warehouse. Adam: Yes, absolutely. I think it's twofold. I am an author at heart—that's my passion—but I'm also a businessman and a creative from a marketing point of view. I always see writing as the passion. The business side and the creating of content—that's the work. So I never see writing as work. When I was a nurse, I was the nurse that was always put on the wards where no one else wanted to work because that's where I thrived. I thrive in the chaos. Put me with people who had really challenging behaviour or were really unwell and needed that really intense support, displayed quite often problematic behaviours, and I would thrive in those environments because I'd always like to prove that you can get the best out of anyone. I very much work in that manner now. The more chaotic, the more pressure-charged the situation is, the better I thrive in that. If I was just sat writing a book and that was it, I'd probably get less done because I'd get bored and I wouldn't feel like I was challenging myself. As you said, the flip side of that is that risk of burnout is very, very real, and I have come very, very close. But as a former mental health nurse, I am very good at spotting my own signs of when I'm not taking good care of myself. And if I don't, Sarah sure as hell does. Jo: I think that's great. Really good to hear. Okay, so you talked there about creating the content as work, and— You have driven your success, I would say, almost entirely with TikTok. Would that be right? Adam: Well, no, I'd come back and touch on that just to say it isn't just TikTok. I would say definitely organic marketing, but not just TikTok. I'm always quick to pivot if something isn't working or if there's a dip in sales. I'm always looking at how we can—not necessarily keep growing—but it's about sustaining what you've built so that we can carry on doing this. If the business stops earning money, I can't keep doing what I love doing, and me and my wife can't keep supporting o

What if the most transformative thing you can do for your writing craft and author business is to face what you fear? How can you can find gold in your Shadow in the year ahead? In this episode, I share chapters from Writing the Shadow: Turn Your Inner Darkness Into Words. In the intro, curated book boxes from Bridgerton's Julia Quinn; Google's agentic shopping, and powering Apple's Siri; ChatGPT Ads; and Claude CoWork. Balancing Certainty and Uncertainty [MoonShots with Tony Robbins]; and three trends for authors with me and Orna Ross [Self-Publishing with ALLi Podcast]; plus, Bones of the Deep, Business for Authors, and Indie Author Lab. This show is supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Joanna Penn writes non-fiction for authors and is an award-winning, New York Times and USA Today bestselling author of thrillers, dark fantasy, and memoir as J.F. Penn. She’s also an award-winning podcaster, creative entrepreneur, and international professional speaker. What is the Shadow? The ‘creative wound' and the Shadow in writing The Shadow in traditional publishing The Shadow in self-publishing or being an indie author The Shadow in work The Shadow in money You can find Writing the Shadow in all formats on all stores, as well as special edition, workbook and bundles at www.TheCreativePenn.com/shadowbook Writing the Shadow: Turn Your Inner Darkness Into Words The following chapters are excerpted from Writing the Shadow: Turn Your Inner Darkness Into Words by Joanna Penn. Introduction. What is the Shadow? “How can I be substantial if I do not cast a shadow? I must have a dark side also if I am to be whole.” —C.G. Jung, Modern Man in Search of a Soul We all have a Shadow side and it is the work of a lifetime to recognise what lies within and spin that base material into gold.  Think of it as a seedling in a little pot that you’re given when you’re young. It’s a bit misshapen and weird, not something you would display in your living room, so you place it in a dark corner of the basement.  You don’t look at it for years. You almost forget about it.  Then one day you notice tendrils of something wild poking up through the floorboards. They’re ugly and don’t fit with your Scandi-minimalist interior design. You chop the tendrils away and pour weedkiller on what’s left, trying to hide the fact that they were ever there.  But the creeping stems keep coming.  At some point, you know you have to go down there and face the wild thing your seedling has become.  When you eventually pluck up enough courage to go down into the basement, you discover that the plant has wound its roots deep into the foundations of your home. Its vines weave in and out of the cracks in the walls, and it has beautiful flowers and strange fruit.  It holds your world together.  Perhaps you don’t need to destroy the wild tendrils. Perhaps you can let them wind up into the light and allow their rich beauty to weave through your home. It will change the look you have so carefully cultivated, but maybe that’s just what the place needs. The Shadow in psychology Carl Gustav Jung was a Swiss psychologist and the founder of analytical psychology. He described the Shadow as an unconscious aspect of the human personality, those parts of us that don’t match up to what is expected of us by family and society, or to our own ideals. The Shadow is not necessarily evil or illegal or immoral, although of course it can be. It’s also not necessarily caused by trauma, abuse, or any other severely damaging event, although again, it can be. It depends on the individual.  What is in your Shadow is based on your life and your experiences, as well as your culture and society, so it will be different for everyone.  Psychologist Connie Zweig, in The Inner Work of Age, explains, “The Shadow is that part of us that lies beneath or behind the light of awareness. It contains our rejected, unacceptable traits and feelings. It contains our hidden gifts and talents that have remained unexpressed or unlived. As Jung put it, the essence of the Shadow is pure gold.” To further illustrate the concept, Robert Bly, in A Little Book on the Human Shadow,uses the following metaphor: “When we are young, we carry behind us an invisible bag, into which we stuff any feelings, thoughts, or behaviours that bring disapproval or loss of love—anger, tears, neediness, laziness. By the time we go to school, our bags are already a mile long.  In high school, our peer groups pressure us to stuff the bags with even more—individuality, sexuality, spontaneity, different opinions. We spend our life until we’re twenty deciding which parts of ourselves to put into the bag and we spend the rest of our lives trying to get them out again.” As authors, we can use what’s in the ‘bag’ to enrich our writing — but only if we can access it. My intention with this book is to help you venture into your Shadow and bring some of what’s hidden into the light and into your words. I’ll reveal aspects of my Shadow in these pages but ultimately, this book is about you. Your Shadow is unique. There may be elements we share, but much will be different. Each chapter has questions for you to consider that may help you explore at least the edges of your Shadow, but it’s not easy. As Jung said, “One does not become enlightened by imagining figures of light, but by making the darkness conscious. The latter procedure, however, is disagreeable and therefore not popular.” But take heart, Creative. You don’t need courage when things are easy. You need it when you know what you face will be difficult, but you do it anyway. We are authors. We know how to do hard things. We turn ideas into books. We manifest thoughts into ink on paper.  We change lives with our writing. First, our own, then other people’s. It’s worth the effort to delve into Shadow, so I hope you will join me on the journey. The creative wound and the Shadow in writing “Whatever pain you can’t get rid of, make it your creative offering.” —Susan Cain, Bittersweet  The more we long for something, the more extreme our desire, the more likely it is to have a Shadow side. For those of us who love books, the author life may well be a long-held dream and thus, it is filled with Shadow.  Books have long been objects of desire, power, and authority. They hold a mythic status in our lives. We escaped into stories as children; we studied books at school and college; we read them now for escape and entertainment, education and inspiration. We collect beautiful books to put on our shelves. We go to them for solace and answers to the deepest questions of life.  Writers are similarly held in high esteem. They shape culture, win literary prizes, give important speeches, and are quoted in the mainstream media. Their books are on the shelves in libraries and bookstores. Writers are revered, held up as rare, talented creatures made separate from us by their brilliance and insight. For bibliophile children, books were everything and to write one was a cherished dream. To become an author? Well, that would mean we might be someone special, someone worthy. Perhaps when you were young, you thought the dream of being a writer was possible — then you told someone about it. That’s probably when you heard the first criticism of such a ridiculous idea, the first laughter, the first dismissal. So you abandoned the dream, pushed the idea of being a writer into the Shadow, and got on with your life. Or if it wasn’t then, it came later, when you actually put pen to paper and someone — a parent, teacher, partner, or friend, perhaps even a literary agent or publisher, someone whose opinion you valued — told you it was worthless. Here are some things you might have heard: Writing is a hobby. Get a real job. You’re not good enough. You don’t have any writing talent. You don’t have enough education. You don’t know what you’re doing. Your writing is derivative / unoriginal / boring / useless / doesn’t make sense. The genre you write in is dead / worthless / unacceptable / morally wrong / frivolous / useless.  Who do you think you are? No one would want to read what you write. You can’t even use proper grammar, so how could you write a whole book? You’re wasting your time. You’ll never make it as a writer. You shouldn’t write those things (or even think about those things). Why don’t you write something nice? Insert other derogatory comment here! Mark Pierce describes the effect of this experience in his book The Creative Wound, which “occurs when an event, or someone’s actions or words, pierce you, causing a kind of rift in your soul. A comment—even offhand and unintentional—is enough to cause one.” He goes on to say that such words can inflict “damage to the core of who we are as creators. It is an attack on our artistic identity, resulting in us believing that whatever we make is somehow tainted or invalid, because shame has convinced us there is something intrinsically tainted or invalid about ourselves.” As adults, we might brush off such wounds, belittling them as unimportant in the grand scheme of things. We might even find ourselves saying the same words to other people. After all, it’s easier to criticise than to create.  But if you picture your younger self, bright eyed as you lose yourself in your favourite book, perhaps you might catch a glimpse of what you longed for before your dreams were dashed on the rocks of other people’s reality. As Mark Pierce goes on to say, “A Creative Wound has the power to delay our pursuits—sometimes for year

How can you build iconic characters that your readers want to keep coming back to? How can you be the kind of creator that readers trust, even without social media? With Claire Taylor In the intro, Dan Brown talks writing and publishing [Tetragrammaton]; Design Rules That Make or Break a Book [Self-Publishing Advice]; Amazon’s DRM change [Kindlepreneur]; Show me the money [Rachael Herron]; AI bible translation [Wycliffe, Pope Leo tweet]. Plus, Business for Authors 24 Jan webinar, and Bones of the Deep. Today's show is sponsored by Bookfunnel, the essential tool for your author business. Whether it’s delivering your reader magnet, sending out advanced copies of your book, handing out ebooks at a conference, or fulfilling your digital sales to readers, BookFunnel does it all. Check it out at bookfunnel.com/thecreativepenn This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Claire Taylor is a humour and mystery author, the owner of FFS Media, and a certified Enneagram coach. She teaches authors to write stronger stories and build sustainable careers at LiberatedWriter.com, and her book is Write Iconic Characters: Unlocking the Core Motivations that Fuel Unforgettable Stories. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights, and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Why Claire left social media and how she still markets her books and services What the Enneagram is and how core fears and desires shape character motivation Using Enneagram types (including Wednesday Addams as an example) to write iconic characters Creating rich conflict and relationships by pairing different Enneagram types on the page Coping with rapid change, AI, and fear in the author community in 2026 Building a trustworthy, human author brand through honesty, transparency, and vulnerability You can find Claire at LiberatedWriter.com, FFS.media, or on Substack as The Liberated Writer. Transcript of the interview with Claire Taylor Joanna: Claire Taylor is a humour and mystery author, the owner of FFS Media, and a certified Enneagram coach. She teaches authors to write stronger stories and build sustainable careers at LiberatedWriter.com, and her book is Write Iconic Characters: Unlocking the Core Motivations that Fuel Unforgettable Stories. So, welcome back to the show, Claire. Claire: Thank you so much for having me back. I'm excited to be here. Joanna: It's great to have you back on the show. It was March 2024 when you were last on, so almost two years now as this goes out. Give us a bit of an update. How has your writing craft and your author business changed in that time? Claire: One of the things I've been focusing on with my own fiction craft is deconstructing the rules of how a story “should” be. That's been a sort of hobby focus of mine. All the story structure books aren't law, right? That's why there are so many of them. They're all suggestions, frameworks. They're all trying to quantify humans’ innate ability to understand a story. So I'm trying to remember more that I already know what a story is, deep down. My job as an author is to keep the reader's attention from start to finish and leave them feeling the way I hope they’ll feel at the end. That’s been my focus on the craft side. On the author business side, I've made some big shifts. I left social media earlier this year, and I've been looking more towards one-on-one coaching and networking. I did a craft-based Kickstarter, and I’d been focusing a lot on “career, career, career”—very business-minded—and now I'm creating more content again, especially around using the Enneagram for writing craft. So there’s been a lot of transition since 2024 for me. Joanna: I think it's so important—and obviously we're going to get into your book in more detail—but I do think it's important for people to hear about our pivots and transitions. I haven't spoken to you for a while, but I actually started a master's degree a few months back. I'm doing a full-time master's alongside everything else I do. So I've kind of put down book writing for the moment, and I'm doing essay writing and academic writing instead. It's quite different, as you can imagine. It sounds like what you’re doing is different too. One thing I know will have perked up people’s ears is: “I left social media.” Tell us a bit more about that. Claire: This was a move that I could feel coming for a while. I didn’t like what social media did to my attention. Even when I wasn’t on it, there was almost a hangover from having been on it. My attention didn’t feel as sharp and focused as it used to be, back before social media became what it is now. So I started asking myself some questions: What is lost if I leave? What is gained if I leave? And what is social media actually doing for me today? Because sometimes we hold on to what it used to do for us, and we keep trying to squeeze more and more of that out of it. But it has changed so much. There are almost no places with sufficient organic reach anymore. It’s all pay-to-play, and the cost of pay-to-play keeps going up. I looked at the numbers for my business. My Kickstarter was a great place to analyse that because they track so many traffic sources so clearly. I could see exactly how much I was getting from social media when I advertised and promoted my projects there. Then I asked: can I let that go in order to get my attention back and make my life feel more settled? And I decided: yes, I can. That’s worth more to me. Joanna: There are some things money can’t buy. Sometimes it really isn’t about the money. I like your question: what is lost and what is gained? You also said it’s all pay-to-play and there’s no organic reach. I do think there is some organic reach for some people who don’t pay, but those people are very good at playing the game of whatever the platform wants. So, TikTok for example—you might not have to pay money yet, but you do have to play their game. You have to pay with your time instead of money. I agree with you. I don’t think there’s anywhere you can literally just post something and know it will reliably reach the people who follow you. Claire: Right. Exactly. TikTok currently, if you really play the game, will sometimes “pick” you, right? But that “pick me” energy is not really my jam. And we can see the trend—this “organic” thing doesn’t last. It's organic for now. You can play the game for now, but TikTok would be crazy not to change things so they make more money. So eventually everything becomes pay-to-play. TikTok is fun, but for me it’s addictive. I took it off my phone years ago because I would do the infinite scroll. There’s so much candy there. Then I’d wake up the next morning and notice my mood just wasn’t where I wanted it to be. My energy was low. I really saw a correlation between how much I scrolled and how flat I felt afterwards. So I realised: I’m not the person to pay-to-play or to play the game here. I’m not even convinced that the pay-to-play on certain social media networks is being tracked in a reliable, accountable way anymore. Who is holding them accountable for those numbers? You can sort of see correlation in your sales, but still, I just became more and more sceptical. In the end, it just wasn’t for me. My life is so much better on a daily basis without it. That’s definitely a decision I have not regretted for a second. Joanna: I’m sorry to keep on about this, but I think this is great because this is going out in January 2026, and there will be lots of people examining their relationship with social media. It’s one of those things we all examine every year, pretty much. The other thing I’d add is that you are a very self-aware person. You spend a lot of time thinking about these things and noticing your own behaviour and energy. Stopping and thinking is such an important part of it. But let’s tackle the big question: one of the reasons people don’t want to come off social media is that they’re afraid they don’t know how else to market. How are you marketing if you’re not using social media? Claire: I didn’t leave social media overnight. Over time, I’ve been adjusting and transitioning, preparing my business and myself mentally and emotionally for probably about a year. I still market to my email list. That has always been important to my business. I’ve also started a Substack that fits how my brain works. Substack is interesting. Some people might consider it a form of social media—it has that new reading feed—but it feels much more like blogging to me. It’s blogging where you can be discovered, which is lovely. I’ve been doing more long-form content there. You get access to all the emails of your subscribers, which is crucial to me. I don’t want to build on something I can’t take with me. So I’ve been doing more long-form content, and that seems to keep my core audience with me. I’ve got plenty of people subscribed; people continue to come back, work with me, and tell their friends. Word of mouth has always been the way my business markets best, because it’s hard to describe the benefits of what I do in a quick, catchy way. It needs context. So I’m leaning even more on that. Then I’m also shifting my fiction book selling more local. Joanna: In person? Claire: Yes. In person and local. Networking and just telling more people that I’m an author. Connecting more deeply with my existing email lists and communities and selling that way. Joanna: I think at the end of the day it does come back to the email list. I thin

What does 2026 hold for indie authors and the publishing industry? I give my thoughts on trends and predictions for the year ahead. In the intro, Quitting the right stuff; how to edit your author business in 2026; Is SubStack Good for Indie Authors?; Business for Authors webinars. If you'd like to join my community and support the show every month, you'll get access to my growing list of Patron videos and audio on all aspects of the author business — for the price of a black coffee (or two) a month. Join us at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn. Joanna Penn writes non-fiction for authors and is an award-winning, New York Times and USA Today bestselling thriller author as J.F. Penn. She’s also an award-winning podcaster, creative entrepreneur, and international professional speaker. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  (1) More indie authors will sell direct through Shopify, Kickstarter, and local in-person events (2) AI-powered search will start to shift elements of book discoverability (3) The start of Agentic Commerce (4) AI-assisted audiobook narration will go mainstream (5) AI-assisted translation will start to take off beyond the early adopters (6) AI video becomes ubiquitous. ‘Live selling’ becomes the next trend in social sales. (7) AI will create, run, and optimise ads without the need for human intervention (8) 1000 True Fans becomes more important than ever You can find all my books as J.F. Penn and Joanna Penn on your favourite online store in all the usual formats, or order from your local library or bookstore. You can also buy direct from me at CreativePennBooks.com and JFPennBooks.com. I'm not really active on social media, but you can always see my photos at Instagram @jfpennauthor. 2026 Trends and Predictions for Indie Authors and Book Publishing  (1) More indie authors will sell direct through Shopify, Kickstarter, and local in-person events —  and more companies like BookVault will offer even more beautiful physical books and products to support this. This trend will not be a surprise to most of you! Selling direct has been a trend for the last few years, but in 2026, it will continue to grow as a way that independent authors become even more independent.   The recent Written Word Media survey from Dec 2025 noted that 30% of authors surveyed are selling direct already and 30% say they plan to start in 2026. Among authors earning over $10,000 per month, roughly half sell direct.  In my opinion, selling direct is an advanced author strategy, meaning that you have multiple books and you understand book marketing and have an email list already or some guaranteed way to reach readers. In fact, Kindlepreneur reports that 66% of authors selling direct have more than 5 books, and 46% have more than 10 books.  Of course, you can start with the something small, like a table at a local event with a limited number of books for sale, but if you want to consistently sell direct for years to come, you need to consider all the business aspects. Selling direct is not a silver bullet.  It’s much harder work to sell direct than it is to just upload an ebook to Amazon, whether you choose a Kickstarter campaign, or Shopify/Payhip or other online stores, or regular in-person sales at events/conferences/fairs.  You need a business mindset and business practices, for example, you need to pay upfront for setup as well as ongoing management, and bulk printing in some cases. You need to manage taxes and cashflow. You need to be a lot more proactive about marketing, as you won’t sell anything if you don’t bring readers to your books/products.  But selling direct also brings advantages. It sets you apart from the bulk of digital only authors who still only upload ebooks to Amazon, or maybe add a print on demand book, and in an era of AI rapid creation, that number is growing all the time. If you sell direct, you get your customer data and you can reach those customers next time, through your email list. If you don’t know who bought your books and don’t have a guaranteed way to reach them, you will more easily be disrupted when things change — and they always change eventually. Kindlepreneur notes that “45% of the successful direct selling authors had over 1,000 subscribers on their email lists,” with “a clear, positive correlation between email list size and monthly direct sales income — with authors having an email list of over 15,000 subscribers earning 20X more than authors with email lists under 100 subscribers.”  Selling direct means faster money, sometimes the same day or the same week in many cases, or a few weeks after a campaign finishes, as with Kickstarter.  And remember, you don’t have to sell all your formats directly. You can keep your ebooks in KU, do whatever you like with audiobooks, and just have premium print products direct, or start with a very basic Kickstarter campaign, or a table at a local fair.  Lots more tips for Shopify and Kickstarter at https://www.thecreativepenn.com/selldirectresources/  I also recommend the Novel Marketing Podcast on The Shopify Trap: Why authors keep losing money as it is a great counterpoint to my positive endorsement of selling direct on Shopify!  Among other things, Thomas notes that a fixed monthly fee for a store doesn’t match how most authors make money from books which is more in spikes, the complexity and hassle eats time and can cost more money if you pay for help, and it can reduce sales on Amazon and weaken your ranking. Basically, if you haven’t figured out marketing direct to your store, it can hurt you.All true for some authors, for some genres, and for some people’s lifestyle.  But for authors who don’t want to be on the hamster wheel of the Amazon algorithm and who want more diversity and control in income, as well as the incredible creative benefits of what you can do selling direct, then I would say, consider your options in 2025, even if that is trying out a low-financial-goal Kickstarter campaign, or selling some print books at a local fair.  Interestingly, traditional publishers are also experimenting with direct sales. Kate Elton, the new CEO of Harper Collins notes in The Bookseller’s 2026 trend article, “we are seeing global success with responsive, reader-driven publishing, subscription boxes and TikTok Shop and – crucially – developing strategies that are founded on a comprehensive understanding of the reader.”  She also notes, “AI enables us to dramatically change the way we interact with and grow audiences. The opportunities are genuinely exciting – finding new ways to help readers discover books they will love, innovating in the ways we market and reach audiences, building new channels and adapting to new methods of consuming content.” (2) AI-powered search will start to shift elements of book discoverability From LinkedIn’s 2026 Big Ideas: “Generative engine optimization (GEO) is set to replace search engine optimization (SEO) as the way brands get discovered in the year ahead. As consumers turn to AI chatbots, agentic workflows and answer engines, appearing prominently in generative outputs will matter more than ranking in search engines.”  Google has been rolling out AI Mode with its AI Overviews and is beginning to push it within Google.com itself in some countries, which means the start of a fundamental change in how people discover content online. I first posted about GEO (Generative Engine Optimisation) and AEO (Answer Engine Optimisation) in 2023, and it's going to change how readers find books. For years, we've talked about the long tail of search. Now, with AI-powered search, that tail is getting even longer and more nuanced. AI can understand complex, conversational queries that traditional search engines struggled with. Someone might ask, “What's a good thriller set in a small town with a female protagonist who's a journalist investigating a cold case?” and get highly specific recommendations. This means your book metadata, your website content, and your online presence need to be more detailed and conversational. AI search engines understand context in ways that go far beyond simple keywords. The authors who win in this new landscape will be those who create rich, authentic content about their books and themselves, not just promotional copy. As economist Tyler Cowen has said, “Consider the AIs as part of your audience. Because they are already reading your words and listening to your voice.” We’re in the ‘organic’ traffic phase right now, where these AI engines are surfacing content for ‘free,’ but paid ads are inevitably on the way, and even rumoured to be coming this year to ChatGPT.  By the end of 2026, I expect some authors and publishers to be paying for AI traffic, rather than blocking and protesting them.  For now, I recommend checking that your author name/s and your books are surfaced when you search on ChatGPT.com  as well as Google.com AI Mode (powered by Gemini). You want to make sure your work comes up in some way. I found that Joanna Penn and J.F. Penn searches brought up my Shopify stores, my website, podcast, Instagram, LinkedIn, and even my Patreon page, but did not bring up links to Amazon. If you only have an author presence on Amazon, does it appear in AI search at all? Do you need to improve anything about what the AI search brings up?  Traditional publishers are also looking at this, with PublishersWeekly doing webinars on various aspects of AI in early 2026, including sessions on GEO and how book sales are changing, AI agents, and book marketing.  I

Happy New Year 2026! I love January and the opportunity to start afresh. I know it’s arbitrary in some ways, but I measure my life by what I create, and I also measure it in years. At the beginning of each year, I publish an article (and podcast episode) here, which helps keep me accountable. If you’d like to share your goals, please add them in the comments below.  2026 is a transitional year as I will finish my Masters degree and continue the slow pivot that I started in December 2023 after 15 years as an author entrepreneur. Just to recap that, it was: From digitally-focused to creating beautiful physical books; From high-volume, low cost to premium products with higher Average Order Value; From retailer-centric to direct first; and From distance to presence, and From creating alone to the AI-Assisted Artisan Author. I’ve definitely stepped partially into all of those, and 2026 will continue in that same direction, but I also have an additional angle for Joanna Penn and The Creative Penn that I am excited about.   If you'd like to join my community and support the show every month, you'll get access to my growing list of Patron videos and audio on all aspects of the author business — for the price of a black coffee (or two) a month. Join us at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn. Joanna Penn writes non-fiction for authors and is an award-winning, New York Times and USA Today bestselling thriller author as J.F. Penn. She’s also an award-winning podcaster, creative entrepreneur, and international professional speaker. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Leaning into the Transformation Economy  The Creative Penn Podcast and my Patreon Community Webinars and live events Finish my Masters in Death, Religion, and Culture Bones of the Deep — J.F. Penn Add merch to CreativePennBooks.com and JFPennBooks.com  How to Write, Publish, and Market Short Stories and Short Story Collections — Joanna Penn Other possible books Experiment more with AI translation  Ideally outsource more marketing to AI, but do more marketing anyway Double down on being human, health and travel  You can find all my books as J.F. Penn and Joanna Penn on your favourite online store in all the usual formats, or order from your local library or bookstore. You can also buy direct from me at CreativePennBooks.com and JFPennBooks.com. I'm not really active on social media, but you can always see my photos at Instagram @jfpennauthor. Leaning into the Transformation Economy  I’ve struggled with my identity as Joanna Penn and my Creative Penn brand for a few years now. When I started TheCreativePenn.com in 2008, the term ‘indie author’ was new and self-publishing was considered ‘vanity press’ and a sure way to damage your author career, rather than a conscious creative and business choice.  It was the early days of the Kindle and iPhone (both launched in 2007), and podcasting and social media were also relatively new. While US authors could publish on KDP, the only option for international authors was Smashwords and the market for ebooks was tiny. Print-on-demand and digital audio were also just emerging as viable options.  While it was the early era of blogging, there were very few blogs and barely any podcasts talking about self-publishing, so when I started TheCreativePenn.com in late 2008 and the podcast in March 2009, it was a new area. For several years, it was like howling into the wind. Barely any audience. Barely any traffic, and certainly very little income.  But I loved the freedom and the speed at which I could learn things and put them into practice. Consume and produce. That has always been my focus. I met people on Twitter and interviewed them for my show, and over those early years I met many of the people I consider dear friends even now.  Since self-publishing was a relatively unexplored niche in those early years, I slowly found an audience and built up a reputation. I also started to make more money both as an author, and as a creative entrepreneur. Over the years since, pretty much everything has changed for indie authors and we have had more and more opportunity every year. I’ve shared everything I’ve learned along the way, and it’s been a wonderful time.  But as self-publishing became more popular and more authors saw more success (which is FANTASTIC!), other voices joined the chorus and now, there are many thousands of authors of all different levels with all kinds of different experiences sharing their tips through articles, books, podcasting, and social media.  I started to wonder whether my perspective was useful anymore.  On top of the human competition, in November 2022, ChatGPT launched, and it became clear that prescriptive non-fiction and ‘how to’ information could very easily be delivered by the AI tools, with the added benefit of personalisation. You can ask Chat or Claude or Gemini how you can self-publish your particular book and they will help you step by step through the process of any site. You can share your screen or upload screenshots and it can help with what fields to fill in (very useful with translations!), as well as writing sales descriptions, researching keywords, and offering marketing help targeted to your book and your niche, and tailored to your voice.  Once again, I questioned what value I could offer the indie author community, and I’ve pulled back over the last few years as I’ve been noodling around this.  But over the last few weeks, a penny has dropped. Here’s my thinking in case it also helps you. Firstly, I want to be useful to people. I want to help.   In my early days of speaking professionally, from 2005-ish, I wanted to be the British (introvert) Tony Robbins, someone who inspired people to change, to achieve things they didn’t think they could. Writing a book is one of those things. Making a living from your writing is another. So I leaned into the self-help and how-to niche. But now that is now clearly commoditised. But recently, I realised that my message has always been one of transformation, and in the following four areas.  From someone who doesn’t think they are creative but who desperately wants to write a book, to someone who holds their first book in their hand and proudly says, ‘I made this.’ The New Author. From someone who has no confidence in their author voice, who wonders if they have anything to say, to someone who writes their story and transforms their own life, as well as other people’s. The Confident Author. From an author with one or a handful of books who doesn’t know much about business, to a successful author with a growing business heading towards their first six figure year. The Author-Entrepreneur. And finally, from a tech-phobic, fearful author who worries that AI makes it pointless to create anything and will steal all the jobs, to a confident AI-assisted creative who uses AI tools to enhance and amplify their message and their income. The AI-Assisted Artisan Author. These are four transformations I have been through myself, and with my work as Joanna Penn/The Creative Penn, I want to help you through them as well. So in 2026, I am repositioning myself as part of The Transformation Economy. What does this mean? There is a book out in February, The Transformation Economy by B. Joseph Pine II, who is also the author of The Experience Economy, which drove a lot of the last decade’s shift in business models. I have the book on pre-order, but in the meantime, I am doing the following. I will revamp TheCreativePenn.com with ‘transformation’ as the key frame and add pathways through my extensive material, rather than just categories of how to do things.  I’ve already added navigation pages for The New Author, The Confident Author, The Author-Entrepreneur, and The AI-Assisted Artisan Author, and I will be adding to those over time.  My content is basically the same, as I have always covered these topics, but the framing is now different. The intent is different.  The Creative Penn Podcast will lean more heavily into transformation, rather than just information — And will focus on the first three of the categories above, the more creative, mindset and business things.  My Patreon will continue to cover all those things, and that’s also where I post most of my AI-specific content, so if you’re interested in The AI-Assisted Artisan Author transformation path, come on over to patreon.com/thecreativepenn  I have more non-fiction books for authors coming, and lots more ideas now I am leaning into this angle.  I’ll also continue to do webinars on specific topics in 2026, and also add speaking back in 2027. It’s harder to think about transformation when it comes to fiction, but it’s also really important since fiction books in particular are highly commodified, and will become even more so with the high production speeds.  Yes, all readers have a few favourite authors but most will also read a ton of other books without knowing or caring who the author is.  Fiction can be transformational. Reader’s aren’t buying a ‘book.’ They’re buying a way to escape, to feel deeply, to experience things they never could in real life. A book can transform a day from ‘meh’ into ‘fantastic!’ My J.F. Penn fiction is mostly inspired by places, so my stories transport you into an adventure somewhere wonderful, and they all offer a deeper side of transformative contemplation of ‘memento mori’ if you choose to read them in that way.  They also have elements of gothic and death culture that I am going to lean into

Another year ends, and once more, it's time to reflect on our creative goals. I hope you can take the time to review your goals and you're welcome to leave a comment below about how the year went. Did you achieve everything you wanted to? Let me know in the comments. It's always interesting looking back at my goals from a year ago, because I don't even look at them in the months between, so sometimes it's a real surprise how much they've changed! You can read my 2025 goals here and I go through how things went below.  In the intro, Written Word Media 2025 Indie Author Survey Results, TikTok deal goes through [BBC]; 2025 review [Wish I'd Known Then; Two Authors], Kickstarter year in review; Plus, Anthropic settlement, the continued rise of AI-narrated audiobooks, and thinking/reasoning models (plus my 2019 AI disruption episode). My Bones of the Deep thriller, pics here, and Business for Authors webinars, coming soon. If you'd like to join my community and support the show every month, you'll get access to my growing list of Patron videos and audio on all aspects of the author business — for the price of a black coffee (or two) a month. Join us at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn. Joanna Penn writes non-fiction for authors and is an award-winning, New York Times and USA Today bestselling thriller author as J.F. Penn. She’s also an award-winning podcaster, creative entrepreneur, and international professional speaker. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  J.F. Penn books — Death Valley, The Buried and the Drowned, Blood Vintage Joanna Penn books — Successful Self-Publishing, 4th Edition The Creative Penn Podcast and my community on Patreon/thecreativepenn Unexpected addition: Masters in Death, Religion and Culture at the University of Winchester Book marketing. Not quite a fail but definitely lacklustre. Reflections on my 50th year Double down on being human. Travel and health.  You can find all my books as J.F. Penn and Joanna Penn on your favourite online store in all the usual formats, or order from your local library or bookstore. You can also buy direct from me at CreativePennBooks.com and JFPennBooks.com. I'm not really active on social media, but you can always see my photos at Instagram @jfpennauthor. J.F. Penn — Death Valley. A Thriller.  This was my ‘desert’ book, partially inspired by visiting Death Valley, California in 2024. It’s a stand-alone, high stakes survival thriller, with no supernatural elements, although there are ancient bones and a hidden crypt, as it wouldn’t be me otherwise!  The Kickstarter campaign in April had 231 Backers pledging £10,794 (~US$14,400) and the hardback is a gorgeous foiled edition with custom end papers and research photos as well as a ribbon. As an AI-Assisted Artisan Author, I used AI tools to help with the creative and business processes, including the background image of the cover design, the custom end papers, and the Death Valley book trailer, which I made with Midjourney and Runway ML. The audiobook is also narrated by my J.F. Penn voice clone, which took a while to get used to, but now I love it! You can listen to a sample here. I published Death Valley wide a few months later over the summer, so it is now out on all platforms.  J.F. Penn — Blood Vintage. A Folk Horror Novel, and Catacomb audiobook  I did a Kickstarter for the hardback edition of Blood Vintage in late 2024, and then in 2025, worked with a US agent to see if we could get a deal for it. That didn’t happen, and although there were some nice rejections, mostly it was silence, and the waiting around really was a pain in the proverbial.  So, after a year on submission, I published Blood Vintage wide, so it’s available everywhere now. My voice clone narrated the audiobook, listen to a sample here.  I also finally produced the audiobook for Catacomb, which is a stand-alone thriller inspired by the movie Taken and the legend of Beowulf set in the catacombs under Edinburgh. I used a male voice from ElevenLabs, and you can listen to a sample here. The book is also available everywhere in all formats. J.F. Penn — The Buried and the Drowned Short Story Collection One of my goals for 2025 was to get my existing short stories into print, mainly because they exist only as digital ebook and audiobook files, which in a way, feels like they almost don’t exist!  Plus, I wanted to write an extra two exclusive stories and launch the special edition collection on Kickstarter Collection and then publish wide. I wrote the two stories, The Black Church, inspired by my Iceland trip in March, and also Between Two Breaths, inspired by an experience scuba diving at the Poor Knights Islands in New Zealand almost two decades ago.  There are personal author’s notes accompanying every story, so it’s part-short story fiction, part-memoir, and I human-narrated the audiobook.  I achieved this goal with a Kickstarter in September, 2025, with 206 Backers pledging almost £8000 (~US$10,600) for the various editions. I also did my first patterned sprayed edges and I love the hardback. It has head and tail bands which make the hardback really strong, gorgeous paper, foiling, a ribbon, colour photos, and custom end papers. The Buried and the Drowned is now out everywhere in all editions. As ever, if you enjoy the stories, a review would be much appreciated!  Joanna Penn Books for Authors Early in the year, How to Write Non-Fiction Second Edition launched wide as I only sold it through my store in 2024, so it’s available everywhere in all formats including a special hardback and workbook at CreativePennBooks.com. While I didn't write it in 2025, I made the money on it this year, which is important! I also unexpectedly wrote the Fourth Edition of Successful Self-Publishing, mainly because I saw so much misinformation and hype around selling direct, and I also wanted to write about how many options there are for indie authors now. The ebook and audiobook (narrated by human me) are free on my store, CreativePennBooks.com and also available in print, in all the usual places. If you haven’t revisited options for indie authors for a while, please have a read/listen, as the industry moves fast! All my fiction and non-fiction audiobooks are now on YouTube After an inspiring episode with Derek Slaton, I put all my audiobooks and short stories on YouTube. Firstly, my non-fiction channel is monetised so I get some income from that. It’s not much, but it’s something.  More importantly, it’s marketing for my books, and many audiobook listeners go on to buy other editions especially non-fiction listeners who will often buy print as well. I’m one of those listeners! It’s also doubling down on being human, since I human narrate most of my audiobooks, including almost all of my non-fiction, as well as the memoir, and short stories. This helps bring people into my ecosystem and they may listen to the podcast as well and end up buying other books or joining the Patreon. Finally, in an age of generative AI assisted search recommendations, I want my books and content inside Gemini, which is Google’s AI. I want my books surfaced in recommendations and YouTube is owned by Google, and their AI overviews often point to videos. Only you can decide what you want to do with your audiobooks, but if you want to listen to mine, they are on YouTube @thecreativepenn for non-fiction or YouTube @jfpennauthor for fiction and memoir. The Creative Penn Podcast and my Patreon Community   It’s been another full year of The Creative Penn Podcast and this is episode 842, which is kind of crazy. If you don’t know the back story, I started podcasting in March 2009 on a sporadic schedule and then went to weekly about a decade ago in 2015 when I committed to making it a core part of my author business.  Thanks to our wonderful corporate sponsors for the year, all services I personally use and recommend — ProWritingAid, Draft2Digital, Kobo Writing Life, Bookfunnel, Written Word Media, Publisher Rocket and Atticus.  It’s also been a fantastic year inside my Patreon Community at patreon.com/thecreativepenn so thanks to all Patrons!  I love the community we have as I am able to share my unfiltered thoughts in a way that I have stopped doing in the wider community. Even a tiny paywall makes a big difference in keeping out the haters. I’ve done monthly audio Q&As which are extra solo shows answering patron questions. I’ve also done several live office hours on video, and shared content every week on AI tools, writing and author business tips. Patrons also get discounts on my webinars. I did two webinars on The AI-Assisted Artisan Author, which I am planning to run again sometime in 2026 as they were a lot of fun and so much continues to change. If you get value from the show and you want more, come on over and join us at patreon.com/thecreativepenn We have almost 1400 paying members now which is wonderful. Thanks for being part of the Community!   Unexpected goal of the year: Masters in Death, Religion and Culture at the University of Winchester During the summer as I did my gothic research, I realised that I was feeling quite jaded about the publishing world and sick of the drama in the author community over AI. My top 5 Clifton Strengths are Learner, Intellection, Strategic, Input, and Futuristic — and I needed more Input and Learning. I usually get that from travel and book research, but I wasn’t getting enough of that since Jonathan is busy finishing his MBA.  So I decided to lean into the learning and asked ChatGPT to research som

How can you be more relaxed about your writing process? What are some specific ways to take the pressure off your art and help you enjoy the creative journey? With Joanna Penn and Mark Leslie Lefebvre. In the intro, Spotify 2025 audiobook trends; Audible + BookTok; NonFiction Authors Guide to SubStack; OpenAI and Disney agreement on Sora; India AI licensing; Business for Authors January webinars; Mark and Jo over the years Mark Leslie LeFebvre is the author of horror and paranormal fiction, as well as nonfiction books for authors. He's also an editor, professional speaker, and the Director of Business Development at Draft2Digital. Joanna Penn writes non-fiction for authors and is an award-winning, New York Times and USA Today bestselling author of thrillers, dark fantasy, and memoir as J.F. Penn. She’s also an award-winning podcaster, creative entrepreneur, and international professional speaker. Mark and Jo co-wrote The Relaxed Author in 2021. You can listen to us talk about the process here. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights, and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Why the ‘relaxed' author Write what you love Write at your own pace Write in a series (if you want to) Schedule time to fill the creative well and for rest and relaxation Improve your writing process — but only if it fits with your lifestyle You can find The Relaxed Author: Take the Pressure Off Your Art and Enjoy the Creative Journey on CreativePennBooks.com as well as on your favorite online store or audiobook platform, or order in your library or bookstore. You can find Mark Leslie Lefebvre and his books and podcast at Stark Reflections.ca Why the ‘relaxed' author? Joanna: The definition of relaxed is “free from tension and anxiety,” from the Latin laxus, meaning loose, and to be honest, I am not a relaxed or laid-back person in the broader sense.  Back in my teens, my nickname at school was Highly Stressed. I’m a Type A personality, driven by deadlines and achieving goals. I love to work and I burned out multiple times in my previous career as an IT consultant.  If we go away on a trip, I pack the schedule with back-to-back cultural things like museums and art galleries to help my book research. Or we go on adventure holidays with a clear goal, like cycling down the South-West coast of India. I can’t even go for a long walk without training for another ultra-marathon! So I am not a relaxed person — but I am a relaxed author. If I wanted to spend most of my time doing something that made me miserable, I would go back to my old day job in consulting. I was paid well and worked fewer hours overall. But I measure my life by what I create, and if I am not working on a creative project, I am not able to truly relax in my downtime. There are always more things I want to learn and write about, always more stories to be told and knowledge to share. I don’t want to kill my writing life by over-stressing or burning out as an author. I write what I love and follow my Muse into projects that feel right. I know how to publish and market books well enough to reach readers and make some money. I have many different income streams through my books, podcast and website.  Of course, I still have my creative and business challenges as well as mindset issues, just like any writer. That never goes away. But after a decade as a full-time author entrepreneur, I have a mature creative business and I’ve relaxed into the way I do things.  I love to write, but I also want a full and happy, healthy life. I’m still learning and improving as the industry shifts — and I change, too. I still have ambitious creative and financial goals, but I am going about them in a more relaxed way and in this book, I’ll share some of my experiences and tips in the hope that you can discover your relaxed path, too. Mark: One of the most fundamental things you can do in your writing life is look at how you want to spend your time. I think back to the concept of: ‘You're often a reflection of the people you spend the most time with.’ Therefore, typically, your best friend, or perhaps your partner, is often a person you love spending time with. Because there’s something inherently special about spending time with this person who resonates in a meaningful way, and you feel more yourself because you're with them. In many ways, writing, or the path that you are on as a writer, is almost like being on a journey with an invisible partner. You are you. But you are also the writer you. And there’s the two of you traveling down the road of life together. And so that same question arises. What kind of writer-self do you want to spend all your time with? Do you want to spend all your time with a partner that is constantly stressed out or constantly trying to reach deadlines based on somebody else's prescription of what success is?  Or would you rather spend time with a partner who pauses to take a contemplative look at your own life, your own comfort, your own passion and the things that you are willing to commit to? Someone who allows that all to happen in a way that feels natural and comfortable to you. I’m a fan of the latter, of course, because then you can focus on the things you're passionate about and the things you're hopeful about rather than the things you're fearful about and those that bring anxiety and stress into your life. To me, that’s part of being a relaxed author. That underlying acceptance before you start to plan things out. If the writing life is a marathon, not a sprint, then pacing, not rushing, may be the key. We have both seen burnout in the author community. People who have pushed themselves too hard and just couldn’t keep up with the impossible pace they set for themselves. At times, indie authors would wear that stress, that anxiety, that rush to produce more and more, as a badge of honor. It’s fine to be proud of the hard work that you do. It’s fine to be proud of pushing yourself to always do better, and be better. But when you push too far — beyond your limits — you can ultimately do yourself more harm than good. Everyone has their own unique pace—something that they are comfortable with—and one key is to experiment until you find that pace, and you can settle in for the long run. There’s no looking over your shoulder at the other writers. There’s no panicking about the ones outpacing you. You’re in this with yourself. And, of course, with those readers who are anticipating those clearly communicated milestones of your releases.  I think that what we both want for authors is to see them reaching those milestones at their own paces, in their own comfort, delighting in the fact their readers are there cheering them on. Because we’ll be silently cheering them along as well, knowing that they’ve set a pace, making relaxed author lifestyle choices, that will benefit them in the long run. “I’m glad you're writing this book. I know I'm not the only author who wants peace, moments of joy, and to enjoy the journey. Indie publishing is a luxury that I remember not having, I don't want to lose my sense of gratitude.” —Anonymous author from our survey Write what you love Joanna: The pandemic has taught us that life really is short. Memento mori — remember, you will die.  What is the point of spending precious time writing books you don’t want to write?  If we only have a limited amount of time and only have a limited number of books that we can write in a lifetime, then we need to choose to write the books that we love. If I wanted a job doing something I don’t enjoy, then I would have remained in my stressful old career as an IT consultant — when I certainly wasn’t relaxed! Taking that further, if you try to write things you don't love, then you're going to have to read what you don't love as well, which will take more time. I love writing thrillers because that’s what I love to read. Back when I was miserable in my day job, I would go to the bookstore at lunchtime and buy thrillers. I would read them on the train to and from work and during the lunch break. Anything for a few minutes of escape. That’s the same feeling I try to give my readers now. I know the genre inside and out. If I had to write something else, I would have to read and learn that other genre and spend time doing things I don't love. In fact, I don't even know how you can read things you don't enjoy. I only give books a few pages and if they don’t resonate, I stop reading. Life really is too short.  You also need to run your own race and travel your own journey. If you try to write in a genre you are not immersed in, you will always be looking sideways at what other authors are doing, and that can cause comparisonitis — when you compare yourself to others, most often in an unfavorable way. Definitely not relaxing! Writing something you love has many intrinsic rewards other than sales. Writing is a career for many of us, but it's a passion first, and you don't want to feel like you've wasted your time on words you don’t care about. “Write what you know” is terrible advice for a long-term career as at some point, you will run out of what you know. It should be “write what you want to learn about.” When I want to learn about a topic, I write a book on it because that feeds my curiosity and I love book research, it’s how I enjoy spending my time, especially when I travel, which is also part of how I relax.  If you write what you love and make it part of your lifestyle, you will be a far more relaxed author. Mark: It’s common that writers are drawn into storytelling from some combination of passion, curiosity, and unr

What does it really take to build a multi-six-figure author business with no advertising? Is running your own warehouse really necessary for direct sales success — or is there a simpler path using print-on-demand that works just as well? In this conversation, Sacha Black and I compare our very different approaches to selling direct, from print on demand to pallets of books, and explore why the right model depends entirely on who you are and what your goals are for your author business. In the intro, Memoir Examples and interviews [Reedsy, The Creative Penn memoir tips]; Written Word Media annual indie author survey results; Successful Self-Publishing Fourth Edition; Business for Authors webinars; Into the Drowning Deep by Mira Grant; Camino Portuguese Coastal on My Camino Podcast; Creating while Caring Community with Donn King; The Buried and the Drowned by J.F. Penn Today's show is sponsored by Bookfunnel, the essential tool for your author business. Whether it’s delivering your reader magnet, sending out advanced copies of your book, handing out ebooks at a conference, or fulfilling your digital sales to readers, BookFunnel does it all. Check it out at bookfunnel.com/thecreativepenn This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Sacha Black is the author of YA and non-fiction for authors and previously hosted The Rebel Author Podcast. As Ruby Roe, she is a multi-six-figure author of sapphic romantasy. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights, and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Two models for selling direct: print on demand vs running your own warehouse. Plus, check out Sacha's solo Rebel Author episode about the details of the warehouse. Cashflow management Kickstarter lessons: pre-launch followers, fulfillment time, and realistic timelines How Sacha built a multi-six-figure business through TikTok with zero ad spend Matching your business model to your personality and skill set Building resilience: staff salaries, SOPs, and planning for when things change You can find Ruby at RubyRoe.co.uk and on TikTok @rubyroeauthor and on Instagram @sachablackauthor Transcript of the interview Joanna: Sacha Black is the author of YA and nonfiction for authors, and previously hosted the Rebel Author podcast. As Ruby Roe, she is a multi-six-figure author of sapphic romance. So welcome back to the show, Sacha. Sacha: Hello. Thank you for having me. It's always a pleasure to be here. Joanna: I'm excited to talk to you today. Now, just for context, for everybody listening, Sacha has a solo episode on her Rebel Author podcast, last week as we record this, which goes into specific lessons around the warehouse in more detail, including financials. So we are going to come at this from a slightly different angle in our discussion today, which is really about two different ways of doing selling direct. I want us to start though, Sacha, in case people don't know your background, in case they've missed out. Can you just give us a quick recap of your indie author journey, because you haven't just come out of nowhere and jumped into this business and done incredibly well? Sacha's Indie Author Journey Sacha: No, I really haven't. Okay. So 2013, I started writing. So 12 years ago I started writing with the intention to publish, because I was writing before, but not with the intention. 2017 I first self-published and then two years after that, in 2019, I quit the day job. But let me be clear, it wasn't because I was rolling in self-published royalties or commissions or whatever you want to call them. I was barely scraping by. And so those are what I like to call my hustle years because I mean, I still hustle, but it was a different kind. It was grind and hustle. So I did a lot of freelance work. I did a lot of VA work for other authors. I did speaking, I was podcasting, teaching courses, and so on and so forth. 2022, in the summer, I made a realisation that I'd created another job for myself rather than a business that I wanted to grow and thrive in and was loving life and all of that stuff. And so I took a huge risk and I slowed down everything, and I do mean everything. I slowed down the speaking, I slowed down the courses, I slowed down the nonfiction, and — I poured everything into writing what became the first Ruby Roe book. I published that in February 2023. In August/September 2023, I stopped all freelance work. And to be clear, at that point, I also wasn't entirely sure if I was going to be able to pay my bills with Ruby, but I could see that she had the potential there and I was making enough to scrape by. And there's nothing if not a little bit of pressure to make you work hard. So that is when I stopped the freelance. And then in November 2023, so two months later, I started TikTok in earnest. And then a month after that, December the eighth, I went viral. And then what's relevant to this is that two days after that, on December the 10th, I had whipped up my minimum viable Shopify, and that went live. Then roll on, I did more of the same, published more Ruby Roe books. I made a big change to my Shopify. So at that point it was still print on demand Shopify, and then February 2025, I took control and took the reins and rented a warehouse and started fulfilling distribution myself. The Ten-Year Overnight Success Joanna: So great. So really good for people to realise that 2013, you started writing with the intention, like, seriously, I want this to be what I do. And it was 2019 when you quit the day job, but really it was 2023 when you actually started making decent money, right? Sacha: Almost like we all need 10 years. Joanna: Yeah. I mean, it definitely takes time. So I wanted just to set that scene there. And also that you did at least a year of print on demand Shopify before getting your own warehouse. Sacha: Yeah, maybe 14 months. Joanna: Yeah, 14 months. Okay. So we are going to revisit some of these, but I also just want as context, what was your day job so people know? Sacha: So I was a project manager in a local government, quite corporate, quite conservative place. And I played the villain. It was great. I would helicopter into departments and fix them up and look at processes that were failing and restructure things and bring in new software and bits and bobs like that. The Importance of Business Skills Joanna: Yeah. So I think that's important too, because your job was fixing things and looking at processes, and I feel like that is a lot of what you've done and we'll revisit that. Sacha: How did I not realise that?! Joanna: I thought you did know that. No. Well, oh my goodness. And let's just put my business background in context. I'm sure most people have heard it before, but I was an IT consultant for about 13 years, but much of my job was going into businesses and doing process mapping and then doing software to fix that. And also I worked, I'm not an accountant, but I worked in financial accounting departments. So I think this is really important context for people to realise that learning the craft is one thing, but learning business is a completely different game, right? Sacha: Oh, it is. I have learnt — it's wild because I always feel like there's no way you can learn more than in your first year of publishing because everything is brand new. But I genuinely feel like this past 18 months I have learnt as much, if not more, because of the business, because of money, because of all of the other legal regulation type changes in the last 18 months. It's just been exhausting in terms of learning. It's great, but also it is a lot to learn. There is just so much to business. Joanna's Attempts to Talk Sacha Out of the Warehouse Joanna: So that's one thing. Now, I also want to say for context, when you decided to start a warehouse, how much effort did I put into trying to persuade you not to do this? Sacha: Oh my goodness, me. I mean a lot. There were probably two dinners, several coffees, a Zoom. It was like, don't do it. Don't do it. You got me halfway there. So for everybody listening, I went big and I was like, oh, I'm going to buy shipping containers and convert them and put them on a plot of land and all of this stuff. And Joanna very sensibly turned around and was like, hmm, why don't you rent somewhere that you can bail out of if it doesn't work? And I was like, oh yeah, that does sound like a good idea. Joanna: Try it, try it before you really commit. Okay. So let's just again take a step back because the whole point of doing this discussion for me is because you are doing really well and it is amazing what you are doing and what some other people are doing with warehouses. But I also sell direct and in the same way as you used to, which is I use Bookfunnel for ebooks and audiobooks and I use BookVault for print on demand books, and people can also use Lulu. That's another option for people. So you don't have to do direct sales in the way that you've done it. And part of the reason to do this episode was to show people that there are gradations of selling direct. Why Sell Direct? Joanna: But I wanted to go back to the basics around this. Why might people consider selling direct, even in a really simple way, for example, just ebooks from their website, or what might be reasons to sell direct rather than just sending everything to Amazon or other stores? Sacha: I think, well, first of all, it depends on what you want as a business model. For me, I have a similar background to you in that I was very vulnerable when I was in corporate because of redundancies, and so that bred a bit of control freakness inside me. An

Why do some romance authors build decades-long careers while others vanish after one breakout book? What really separates a throwaway pen name and rapid release strategy from a legacy brand and a body of work you’re proud of? How can you diversify with trad, indie, non-fiction, and Kickstarter without burning out—or selling out your creative freedom? With Jennifer Probst. In the intro, digital ebook signing [BookFunnel]; how to check terms and conditions; Business for Authors 2026 webinars; Music industry and AI music [BBC; The New Publishing Standard]; The Golden Age of Weird. This podcast is sponsored by Kobo Writing Life, which helps authors self-publish and reach readers in global markets through the Kobo eco-system. You can also subscribe to the Kobo Writing Life podcast for interviews with successful indie authors. This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Jennifer Probst is a New York Times, USA Today, and Wall Street Journal bestselling author of over 60 books across different kinds of romance as well as non-fiction for writers. Her latest book is Write Free. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights, and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes How Jennifer started writing at age 12, fell in love with romance, and persisted through decades of rejection A breakout success — and what happened when it moved to a traditional publisher Traditional vs indie publishing, diversification, and building a long-term, legacy-focused writing career Rapid-release pen names vs slow-burn author brands, and why Jennifer chooses quality and longevity Inspirational non-fiction for writers (Write Naked, Write True, Write Free) Using Kickstarter for special editions, re-releases, courses, and what she’s learned from both successes and mistakes – plus what “writing free” really means in practice How can you ‘write free'? You can find Jennifer at JenniferProbst.com. Transcript of interview with Jennifer Probst Jo: Jennifer Probst is a New York Times, USA Today, and Wall Street Journal bestselling author of over 60 books across different kinds of romance as well as non-fiction for writers. Her latest book is Write Free. So welcome, Jennifer. Jennifer: Thanks so much, Joanna. I am kind of fangirling. I'm really excited to be on The Creative Penn podcast. It's kind of a bucket list. Jo: Aw, that's exciting. I reached out to you after your recent Kickstarter, and we are going to come back to that in a minute. First up, take us back in time. Tell us a bit more about how you got into writing and publishing. Jennifer: This one is easy for me. I am one of those rarities. I think that I knew when I was seven that I was going to write. I just didn't know what I was going to write. At 12 years old, and now this will kind of date me in dinosaur era here, there was no internet, no information on how to be a writer, no connections out there. The only game in town was Writer’s Digest. I would go to my library and pore over Writer’s Digest to learn how to be a writer. At 12 years old, all I knew was, “Oh, if I want to be a famous writer, I have to write a book.” So I literally sat down at 12 and wrote my first young adult romance. Of course, I was the star, as we all are when we're young, and I have not stopped since. I always knew, since my dad came home from a library with a box of romance novels and got in trouble with my mum and said, basically, “She's reading everything anyway, just let her read these,” I was gone. From that moment on, I knew that my entire life was going to be about that. So for me, it wasn't the writing. I have written non-stop since I was 12 years old. For me, it was more about making this a career where I can make money, because I think there was a good 30 years where I wrote without a penny to my name. So it was more of a different journey for me. It was more about trying to find my way in the writing world, where everybody said it should be just a hobby, and I believed that it should be something more. Jo: I was literally just going back in my head there to the library I used to go to on my way home from school. Similar, probably early teens, maybe age 14. Going to that section and… I think it was Shirley Conran. Was that Lace? Yes, Lace books. That's literally how we all learned about sex back in the day. Jennifer: All from books. You didn't need parents, you didn't need friends. Amazing. Jo: Oh, those were the days. That must have been the eighties, right? Jennifer: It was the eighties. Yes. Seventies, eighties, but mostly right around in the eighties. Oh, it was so… Jo: I got lost about then because I was reminiscing. I was also the same one in the library, and people didn't really see what you were reading in the corner of the library. So I think that's quite funny. Tell us how you got into being an indie. Jennifer: What had happened is I had this manuscript and it had been shopped around New York for agents and for a bunch of publishers. I kept getting the same exact thing: “I love your voice.” I mean, Joanna, when you talk about papering your wall with rejections, I lived that. The only thing I can say is that when I got my first rejection, I looked at it as a rite of passage that created me as a writer, rather than taking the perspective that it meant I failed. To me, perspective is a really big thing in this career, how you look at things. So that really helped me. But after you get like 75 of them, you're like, “I don't know how much longer I can take of this.” What happened is, it was an interesting story, because I had gone to an RWA conference and I had shopped this everywhere, this book that I just kept coming back to. I kept saying, “I feel like this book could be big.” There was an indie publisher there. They had just started out, it was an indie publisher called Entangled. A lot of my friends were like, “What about Entangled? Why don't you try more digital things or more indie publishers coming up rather than the big traditional ones?” Lo and behold, I sent it out. They loved the book. They decided, in February of 2012, to launch it. It was their big debut. They were kind of competing with Harlequin, but it was going to be a new digital line. It was this new cutting-edge thing. The book went crazy. It went viral. The book was called The Marriage Bargain, and it put me on the map. All of a sudden I was inundated with agents, and the traditional publishers came knocking and they wanted to buy the series. It was everywhere. Then it hit USA Today, and then it spent 26 weeks on The New York Times. Everybody was like, “Wow, you're this overnight sensation.” And I'm like, “Not really!” That was kind of my leeway into everything. We ended up selling that series to Simon & Schuster because that was the smart move for then, because it kind of blew up and an indie publisher at that time knew it was a lot to take on. From then on, my goal was always to do both: to have a traditional contract, to work with indie publishers, and to do my own self-pub. I felt, even back then, the more diversified I am, the more control I have. If one bucket goes bad, I have two other buckets. Jo: Yes, I mean, I always say multiple streams of income. It's so surprising to me that people think that whatever it is that hits big is going to continue. So you obviously experienced there a massive high point, but it doesn't continue. You had all those weeks that were amazing, but then it drops off, right? Jennifer: Oh my goodness, yes. Great story about what happened. So 26 weeks on The New York Times, and it was selling like hotcakes. Then Simon & Schuster took it over and they bumped the price to their usual ebook price, which was, what, $12.99 or something? So it's going from $2.99. The day that they did it, I slid off all the bestseller lists. They were gone, and I lost a lot of control too. With indies, you have a little bit more control. But again, that kind of funnels me into a completely different kind of setup. Traditional is very different from indie. What you touched on, I think, is the biggest thing in the industry right now. When things are hot, it feels like forever. I learned a valuable lesson: it doesn't continue. It just doesn't. Maybe someone like Danielle Steel or some of the other big ones never had to pivot, but I feel like in romance it's very fluid. You have genres hitting big, you have niches hitting big, authors hitting big. Yes, I see some of them stay. I see Emily Henry still staying—maybe that will never pause—but I think for the majority, they find themselves saying, “Okay, that's done now. What's next?” It can either hit or not hit. Does that make sense to you? Do you feel the same? Jo: Yes, and I guess it's not just about the book. It's more about the tactic. You mentioned genres, and they do switch a lot in romance, a lot faster than other genres. In terms of how we do marketing… Now, as we record this, TikTok is still a thing, and we can see maybe generative AI search coming on the horizon and agentic buying. A decade ago it might have been different, more Facebook ads or whatever. Then before that it might have been something else. So there's always things changing along the way. Jennifer: Yes, there definitely is. It is a very oversaturated market. They talk about, I don't know, 2010 to 2016 maybe, as the gold rush, because that was where you could make a lot of money as an indie. Then we saw the total fallout of so many different things. I feel like I've gone through so many ups and downs in the industry. I do love it because the longer you're around, the more you learn how to pivot

How can you write science-based fiction without info-dumping your research? How can you use AI tools in a creative way, while still focusing on a human-first approach? Why is adapting to the fast pace of change so difficult and how can we make the most of this time? Jamie Metzl talks about Superconvergence and more. In the intro, How to avoid author scams [Written Word Media]; Spotify vs Audible audiobook strategy [The New Publishing Standard]; Thoughts on Author Nation and why constraints are important in your author life [Self-Publishing with ALLi]; Alchemical History And Beautiful Architecture: Prague with Lisa M Lilly on my Books and Travel Podcast. Today's show is sponsored by Draft2Digital, self-publishing with support, where you can get free formatting, free distribution to multiple stores, and a host of other benefits. Just go to www.draft2digital.com to get started. This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Jamie Metzl is a technology futurist, professional speaker, entrepreneur, and the author of sci-fi thrillers and futurist nonfiction books, including the revised and updated edition of Superconvergence: How the Genetics, Biotech, and AI Revolutions Will Transform Our Lives, Work, and World. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes How personal history shaped Jamie's fiction writing Writing science-based fiction without info-dumping The super convergence of three revolutions (genetics, biotech, AI) and why we need to understand them holistically Using fiction to explore the human side of genetic engineering, life extension, and robotics Collaborating with GPT-5 as a named co-author How to be a first-rate human rather than a second-rate machine You can find Jamie at JamieMetzl.com. Transcript of interview with Jamie Metzl Jo: Jamie Metzl is a technology futurist, professional speaker, entrepreneur, and the author of sci-fi thrillers and futurist nonfiction books, including the revised and updated edition of Superconvergence: How the Genetics, Biotech, and AI Revolutions Will Transform Our Lives, Work, and World. So welcome, Jamie. Jamie: Thank you so much, Jo. Very happy to be here with you. Jo: There is so much we could talk about, but let's start with you telling us a bit more about you and how you got into writing. From History PhD to First Novel Jamie: Well, I think like a lot of writers, I didn't know I was a writer. I was just a kid who loved writing. Actually, just last week I was going through a bunch of boxes from my parents' house and I found my autobiography, which I wrote when I was nine years old. So I've been writing my whole life and loving it. It was always something that was very important to me. When I finished my DPhil, my PhD at Oxford, and my dissertation came out, it just got scooped up by Macmillan in like two minutes. And I thought, “God, that was easy.” That got me started thinking about writing books. I wanted to write a novel based on the same historical period – my PhD was in Southeast Asian history – and I wanted to write a historical novel set in the same period as my dissertation, because I felt like the dissertation had missed the human element of the story I was telling, which was related to the Cambodian genocide and its aftermath. So I wrote what became my first novel, and I thought, “Wow, now I'm a writer.” I thought, “All right, I've already published one book. I'm gonna get this other book out into the world.” And then I ran into the brick wall of: it's really hard to be a writer. It's almost easier to write something than to get it published. I had to learn a ton, and it took nine years from when I started writing that first novel, The Depths of the Sea, to when it finally came out. But it was such a positive experience, especially to have something so personal to me as that story. I'd lived in Cambodia for two years, I’d worked on the Thai-Cambodian border, and I'm the child of a Holocaust survivor. So there was a whole lot that was very emotional for me. That set a pattern for the rest of my life as a writer, at least where, in my nonfiction books, I'm thinking about whatever the issues are that are most important to me. Whether it was that historical book, which was my first book, or Hacking Darwin on the future of human genetic engineering, which was my last book, or Superconvergence, which, as you mentioned in the intro, is my current book. But in every one of those stories, the human element is so deep and so profound. You can get at some of that in nonfiction, but I've also loved exploring those issues in deeper ways in my fiction. So in my more recent novels, Genesis Code and Eternal Sonata, I've looked at the human side of the story of genetic engineering and human life extension. And now my agent has just submitted my new novel, Virtuoso, about the intersection of AI, robotics, and classical music. With all of this, who knows what's the real difference between fiction and nonfiction? We're all humans trying to figure things out on many different levels. Shifting from History to Future Tech Jo: I knew that you were a polymath, someone who's interested in so many things, but the music angle with robotics and AI is fascinating. I do just want to ask you, because I was also at Oxford – what college were you at? Jamie: I was in St. Antony's. Jo: I was at Mansfield, so we were in that slightly smaller, less famous college group, if people don't know. Jamie: You know, but we're small but proud. Jo: Exactly. That's fantastic. You mentioned that you were on the historical side of things at the beginning and now you've moved into technology and also science, because this book Superconvergence has a lot of science. So how did you go from history and the past into science and the future? Biology and Seeing the Future Coming Jamie: It's a great question. I'll start at the end and then back up. A few years ago I was speaking at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, which is one of the big scientific labs here in the United States. I was a guest of the director and I was speaking to their 300 top scientists. I said to them, “I'm here to speak with you about the future of biology at the invitation of your director, and I'm really excited. But if you hear something wrong, please raise your hand and let me know, because I'm entirely self-taught. The last biology course I took was in 11th grade of high school in Kansas City.” Of course I wouldn't say that if I didn't have a lot of confidence in my process. But in many ways I'm self-taught in the sciences. As you know, Jo, and as all of your listeners know, the foundation of everything is curiosity and then a disciplined process for learning. Even our greatest super-specialists in the world now – whatever their background – the world is changing so fast that if anyone says, “Oh, I have a PhD in physics/chemistry/biology from 30 years ago,” the exact topic they learned 30 years ago is less significant than their process for continuous learning. More specifically, in the 1990s I was working on the National Security Council for President Clinton, which is the president’s foreign policy staff. My then boss and now close friend, Richard Clarke – who became famous as the guy who had tragically predicted 9/11 – used to say that the key to efficacy in Washington and in life is to try to solve problems that other people can't see. For me, almost 30 years ago, I felt to my bones that this intersection of what we now call AI and the nascent genetics revolution and the nascent biotechnology revolution was going to have profound implications for humanity. So I just started obsessively educating myself. When I was ready, I started writing obscure national security articles. Those got a decent amount of attention, so I was invited to testify before the United States Congress. I was speaking out a lot, saying, “Hey, this is a really important story. A lot of people are missing it. Here are the things we should be thinking about for the future.” I wasn't getting the kind of traction that I wanted. I mentioned before that my first book had been this dry Oxford PhD dissertation, and that had led to my first novel. So I thought, why don't I try the same approach again – writing novels to tell this story about the genetics, biotech, and what later became known popularly as the AI revolution? That led to my two near-term sci-fi novels, Genesis Code and Eternal Sonata. On my book tours for those novels, when I explained the underlying science to people in my way, as someone who taught myself, I could see in their eyes that they were recognizing not just that something big was happening, but that they could understand it and feel like they were part of that story. That's what led me to write Hacking Darwin, as I mentioned. That book really unlocked a lot of things. I had essentially predicted the CRISPR babies that were born in China before it happened – down to the specific gene I thought would be targeted, which in fact was the case. After that book was published, Dr. Tedros, the Director-General of the World Health Organization, invited me to join the WHO Expert Advisory Committee on Human Genome Editing, which I did. It was a really great experience and got me thinking a lot about the upside of this revolution and the downside. The Birth of Superconvergence Jamie: I get a lot of wonderful invitations to speak, and I have two basic rules for speaking: Never use notes. Never ever. Never stand behind a podium. Never ever. Because of that, when I speak, my talks tend to migrate. I’d be speaking with peo

In early November 2025, I attended and spoke at Author Nation in Las Vegas. It was a fantastic conference for authors at all levels, and in this episode, I share my lessons learned and tips from reflecting on the event. In the intro, scam emails and what to watch out for; Spotify launches Recaps, and how I currently self-publish audiobooks; Successful Self-Publishing 4th Edition free audiobook; My audiobooks on YouTube The Creative Penn / Fiction/memoir audiobooks on JFPennAuthor; 22 ways to grow your author email list [BookBub]; Author Nation with the Wish I’d Known Then Podcast; and Your Author Business Plan on special. Bookfunnel, the essential tool for your author business, sponsors today's show. Whether it’s delivering your reader magnet, sending out advanced copies of your book, handing out ebooks at a conference, or fulfilling your digital sales to readers, BookFunnel does it all. Check it out at bookfunnel.com/thecreativepenn Joanna Penn writes non-fiction for authors and is an award-winning, New York Times and USA Today bestselling author of thrillers, dark fantasy, and memoir as J.F. Penn. She’s also an award-winning podcaster, creative entrepreneur, and international professional speaker. Double down on being human and the importance of connection in person (if possible) Constraints breed creativity What do you need for a long-term sustainable career as an author? How do you want your author business to run? What are your contingency plans for when things don’t go as planned? Money management tips — books and resources here How do you know when to work with a company as part of your author business? How to assess vendors and services. Thoughts from others You can find Author Nation at AuthorNation.live. You can find my books on writing craft and author business in all formats at CreativePennBooks.com, or on your favourite online store, or request at your local bookstore or library. Jo Penn walking the strip, by the luxor; with Mark lefebvre, johnny B. truant & dan wood (d2d), and with sacha black and orna ross, las vegas, nov 2025 Lessons Learned from Author Nation 2025 In early November 2025, I attended Author Nation in Las Vegas along with around 1500 other authors, and lots of vendors. There were about 80 different sessions over four days and a Reader Nation signing and book sales event. The sessions were on different tracks so you could go to basic craft and self-publishing things, or more advanced sessions on author business and mindset. I spoke several times, once as part of a panel on long-term career strategies, once in my own solo session on collaboration with AI, all the things you can use AI for that are not writing, and once in a private meet up for my Patrons.  Congratulations to the Author Nation team for delivering such a fantastic conference! I know how hard everyone worked and it went super well from what I could see. If you’re interested in learning more, just go to https://www.authornation.live/ Here are some of my thoughts from the 2025 conference, but of course, remember, I am a writing conference veteran and have been an author entrepreneur for a long time, so my takeaways will be different to someone who is at a different place in their career.   (1) Double down on being human, and the importance of connection in person (if possible) To be clear, I know this isn’t possible for everyone, because of time or money or health reasons, or caring responsibilities, as Donn’s recent interview illustrated. But if you can, it’s always worth going to conferences in person.  If you attend, organise well in advance. Schedule meetings early, but also leave room for serendipity. Make the most of meeting people at your level; build your network. There were people I hadn’t seen for years at Author Nation, so much elbow bumping, human connection — and LOTS of coffee.While I attended a few sessions, most of my time was back-to-back meetings and chats with other authors and vendors, and we had a great Patreon meet-up with over 100 people.Author conferences are a great way to build relationships, and if you start with people at your level now, over time, you will all grow and change, and people will become successful in different ways, or disappear sometimes. The longer you are in this business, and the more you join in and help others, the more people you get to know and social karma kicks in. Some of those relationships naturally turn into business opportunities, and other author friends will be your support crew over the inevitable challenging years ahead.So if you feel like you don’t have any author friends, or know enough people at your level, then consider booking an in-person conference for 2026. It could be a genre conference, or a broader overall conference like Author Nation, but get away from your screen and do some peopling! As hard as it is, it’s worth it. (2) Constraints breed creativity Drew Davies did the opening keynote, and if you want to be a keynote speaker and get paid the big bucks, then it was a masterclass in professional speaking. I’ve done a lot of speaker training and it was inspiring to watch Drew’s presentation and consider how he used multimedia, how he engaged with different mediums, how he made people laugh, and brought emotion in, as well as deliver a message.If you’re ever in sessions or at events and you want to learn on a different level, consider the person and their skill — or lack of it — instead of the content. You can learn a lot from watching or listening to the person delivering, and how they speak or teach or react to the room.Drew’s content was great too, and he spoke on the Cube of Constraints which can be the catalyst for supercharging your creativity. He had an actual cube too, which he built into a sculpture later, part of his multi-faceted teaching style.In a world of unlimited possibilities, it’s hard to stick to one choice, and especially if you listen to author podcasts like this one, or go to conferences where you ingest a ton of sessions like Author Nation, you will have hundreds of ideas, and you can have popcorn brain with things firing off everywhere.But if you don’t settle into one thing and focus, you might not achieve much, so Drew recommended deliberately constraining your work in 4 ways.  (a) Eliminate the unnecessary What can you stop doing in order to pursue the new thing? If you start something new, kill two things. Kill the easy one, then kill the hard one.When I was writing my first book and trying to exit my day job to become a full-time author, I gave up TV and this was before smartphones and social media, so that wasn’t even a distraction. Giving up TV in the evenings gave me the time I needed to build a new direction. You have to make the time somehow.   (b) Define the outcome What single result defines success? For example, with my first novel, Pentecost, which became Stone of Fire, the goal was to publish it on Amazon by my birthday. I ended up falling short by about a month, but a birthday-related goal is always a good one as it’s so memorable and clear.  (c) Limit your options What unreasonable limitations can you apply to your project? Give it a time limit, and a creative limit. That creative limit is a good one, for example, if you constrain the genre or the number of POV characters in your book, it will make it easier to achieve your goal. (d) Raise the stakes What specifically will happen if you fail? This is a tough one, as it’s so personal. For me, I like achieving goals, and so failing a goal is a big enough stake for me. Some people talk about signing a cheque to a charity they hate or something and sending it off if they fail, but that doesn't motivate me. Whatever floats your boat, but decide what the stakes are. As we know with writing fiction, high stakes are important to keep things moving!  Drew also talked about turning constraints you already have, like time and budget, into positives. This kind of reframing can help you embrace your situation. For example, if you only have 30 minutes per day to write while commuting, well, so be it. Try dictating or typing on your phone, and I know several authors who have written many books during a work commute. Or busy mums who dictate while doing chores. Or again, coming back to Donn’s interview, if you’re a carer, raging against it may not help as much as adapting and changing your creative goals and being more relaxed about time. I’ve embraced my constraints recently as I’m doing this Masters in Death, Religion, and Culture. It’s full-time, so I am doing at least 20 hours a week of study and online lectures and reading on some really interesting topics. I’m writing essays, so I don’t have time or the headspace to write books, too. I’m currently working on three essays — one on natural burial, one on the ethics of using dead bodies to inspire commercial fiction, and one on the depiction of hell in an area of art history. I am clearly collecting ideas for when I am ready to write fiction again, but the constraint of study is focusing my mind on the bare minimum I need to do to keep my author business running and the money coming in. My Books and Travel Podcast is going on hiatus again soon, and I’m going to do fewer interviews here in 2026.  What constraints do you have, and how can you reframe them? Or how can you add constraints rather than giving yourself unlimited possibilities?  (3) What do you need for a long-term sustainable career?  Becca Syme did a talk on sustainability for a long-term career, which tied into the theme of Author Nation, which was ‘Build your best life through writing.’ Becca was on the show recently – Loki is in charge – and she is always worth listening to as she will defin

Why do so many memoir manuscripts fail to engage readers, even when the writer has lived through extraordinary experiences? What's the hidden code that separates a chronological account of events from a compelling memoir that readers can't put down? How do you know when you're ready to write about trauma, and where's the ethical line between truth and storytelling? With Wendy Dale In the intro, Amazon Kindle Translate, and the Writing Storybundle. Today's show is sponsored by Draft2Digital, self-publishing with support, where you can get free formatting, free distribution to multiple stores, and a host of other benefits. Just go to www.draft2digital.com to get started. This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Wendy Dale is a memoir author and teacher, as well as a screenwriter. Today we are talking about The Memoir Engineering System: Make Your First Draft Your Final Draft. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Why memoir is about connected events, not chronological storytelling—and how to transform random experiences into compelling plot The difference between scenes and transitions, and why structure matters in every sentence of your book How to write about trauma and family without crossing ethical lines or damaging relationships Why character arc is actually the easiest part of memoir writing (and what's really difficult) The truth about dialogue, memory, and where to draw the line on fabrication — plus reflections on The Salt Path controversy Whether you can make money from memoir and why marketing matters as much as writing You can find Wendy at GeniusMemoirWriting.com. Transcript of interview with Wendy Dale Joanna: Wendy Dale is a memoir author and teacher, as well as a screenwriter. Today we are talking about The Memoir Engineering System: Make Your First Draft Your Final Draft. So welcome to the show, Wendy. Wendy: Thank you so much for inviting me, Joanna. It's exciting to talk about this topic. Joanna: First up— Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and publishing. Wendy: I think I grew up loving books and I always wanted to be a writer when I was a little girl. I really dreamed of being a writer. My mother said, “No, it's just way too hard. So few people have success. Why don't you become an actress?” So I actually moved to Los Angeles when I was 17 to become an actress. I really did not like the film industry at all from an acting perspective. I was studying acting at UCLA and decided I was really going to be a writer. That was when I changed and really felt like I'd found my calling. That was always what I'd wanted to do. So I tried writing a novel at 19 that didn't go so well. But when I was 23 I started working on a memoir. From there, I have worked in writing in all different aspects, but really my first love will always be books. Now having made that decision, I haven't always done the kind of writing that I would always want to do, right? So sometimes I've done ad copywriting, which actually I did rather love. I've done screenwriting, I've done all kinds of writing, not always my first choice of the type of writing I was doing. For the most part, I have made it work though. So being flexible, you can't always get exactly what you want. I didn't say I'm going to only earn my living publishing books. I don't know if that would've been possible, but I have, for the most part, managed to earn my living as a writer. Joanna: How did you get into memoir specifically? Wendy: So I started trying to write this novel at 19, and it was very difficult and I didn't know what I was doing. I thought, well, it would be so much easier to write about my life. Are you laughing, Joanna? Joanna: Yes, sure. Writing a memoir, right? Wendy: So another misguided idea. I thought, oh, memoir would be easy because you don't even have to come up with the plot. You just write down what you lived through. Lots of misconceptions in everything I just said, but that was how I started writing a memoir. Around this time my parents also made this decision that they were going to retire in their forties and take their life savings and move to a developing country. They sold everything. I mean, they really just fled the United States and moved to Honduras with the idea of retiring early. So I went to visit them and I was like, well, this could be something to write about. So that actually wound up being the first chapter of my memoir. Joanna: And you were telling me before you live in Peru, right? Wendy: I do, yes. I've lived in Peru for almost six years now. Joanna: Oh, right. So, why do that? I mean, a lot of people want to travel. What is it that brought you to Peru? Wendy: I lived in Peru when I was a child and really, it sounds kind of strange, but I think deep down I've always had this identity of feeling Peruvian, right? You look at me and Peruvians don't think I am Peruvian, but really, my first memories as a child were growing up in Peru. Coming back here has been really incredible. So I feel very much at home. I've actually lived by this point, almost half my life in Latin America. Not just Peru—Bolivia, other Latin American countries. So, yes, I've lived half my life in the United States, the other half in Latin America. So I really do feel at home here, partly because my first memories were growing up in Peru. Joanna: Well, I think this might segue into why writing memoir is not just “this is what happened,” because I feel like, as you mentioned, one of the misconceptions is almost that it's just an autobiography. Like, this happened, this happened, this happened. As you said there, for example, the fact that you spent half your life in Latin America, half in the USA, to me is immediately like a potential hook into stories about your life that aren't necessarily in order. Talk a bit about that issue of it's not just “this happened, this happened” and how to think about memoir. Wendy: Oh, I'm going to take a deep sigh here because I just think back to writing this memoir and all of the misconceptions I had. Now, I love prose. I just love prose. I love putting words on the page. I think words are so beautiful. Sometimes I just want to eat them. I'm a prose writer. I don't like structure, I don't like plot, and I didn't even realize the importance of plot until I thought I had finished this memoir. So first chapter starts in Honduras. The last chapter ends in Bolivia because by this point my parents had moved to Bolivia, and all the chapters in between are all these different countries that I went to on my own. I'd finished the book, or so I thought, and I started sending it out to agents and really wasn't getting the response I had hoped for. Then finally I got an agent who called me up, and that was really good news, and she said, “You're a really good prose writer.” I was like, yes, I love writing prose. And she says, “But you know nothing about structure.” And I honestly—are you laughing? Joanna: Yes. Wendy: Right, and I remember the words that went through my head. I was like, what is this structure thing she's talking about? I'd never heard the word. So obviously I knew nothing about structure, and that was kind of the beginning of what I guess would become my life's work—really comprehending memoir structure. So that was a long time ago. That was the beginning of the process, but I didn't even understand that plot plays such a huge role in memoir. I just thought you wrote about your life, and I think that is what a lot of people don't understand, right? It's really easy to confuse the memories of your life with thinking that it's plot, and it just isn't. So one thing I tell my clients is you are not writing a chronicle of what you've lived through. You are taking true stories from your life and turning them into art. This is an art form for other people to enjoy. It's true, but you are creating art. It's very different than chronicling your life. It took me a long time to learn that. Joanna: Yes. Let's come back to this word “art,” but first of all, I want us to tackle structure because, okay, I also learned this the hard way. When I wrote my travel memoir, Pilgrimage, I had like over a hundred thousand words of writing, and I just couldn't figure out how the structure of the book could work until I found another book that helped me figure out the structure. Like, there are lots of different types of memoir structures and mine I found a sort of model and then I was like, oh, okay, this is how it works. Talk us through how we can potentially structure a memoir. Even if we're someone like me who might be a discovery writer first, or like you by the sound of it. Wendy: Oh, well, absolutely. So I hate structure, right? And that's why I became an expert in it—in order to make it a lot easier for me to understand. So I am not a planner, right? In fact, there's a line in my memoir about there are two different kinds of travelers. There are planners and there are fun people, right? So I've never been a planner in any aspect of my life. So the fact that I would become this expert in structure is kind of ironic. Let me go back to this idea of structure. So I think when people talk about structure, their first thought is three acts. Or are you doing a dual timeline? How is the big picture? How is your book going to play out? When I use the word structure, I am referring to how structure plays itself out in every sentence of your book. I mean, it's such a critical part of your story. So there's global structure, which is really refe

What happens when your creative dreams collide with the demands of caregiving? How do you keep writing when you're caring for someone full-time? Can you still be a creative person when traditional productivity advice simply doesn't work? With Donn King. In the intro, Agatha Christie meets Mr Men [BBC]; Podcast guesting and co-writing [Stark Reflections]; thoughts on pushing your comfort zone; Disrupt Everything and Win – James Patterson. This podcast is sponsored by Kobo Writing Life, which helps authors self-publish and reach readers in global markets through the Kobo eco-system. You can also subscribe to the Kobo Writing Life podcast for interviews with successful indie authors. This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Donn King is a nonfiction author, college professor, pastor, speaker, and podcast host at The Alignment Show. His latest book is Creating While Caring: Practical Tips to Keep Creating While Caring for a Loved One. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights, and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Why traditional writing advice (block time, dedicated space, write daily) doesn't work for caregivers and what to do instead How emotional fatigue whispers “why bother?” and the philosophy that helps push through when writing seems pointless Practical tools and techniques for capturing ideas in stolen moments—from hospital chapels to 7-second voice recordings The painful truth about letting go of deadlines, perfect book launches, and achieving your full potential while caregiving The transition after 22 years: moving Hannah to full-time care and reclaiming creative time while managing complex emotions You can find Donn at DonnKing.com or TheAlignmentShow.com. Transcript of interview with Donn King Joanna: Donn King is a nonfiction author, college professor, pastor, speaker, and podcast host at The Alignment Show, which I've been on twice, which was fantastic. His latest book is Creating While Caring: Practical Tips to Keep Creating While Caring for a Loved One. So welcome to the show, Donn. Donn: Thank you very much, Joanna. It's an honor to be on with you. Joanna: I'm excited to talk about this. Now, first up— Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and self-publishing. Donn: Well, the short version is that I've always been a writer. People aren't seeing me, but I turned 70 this year. My first story, I think I wrote when I was about 12 years old. I remember writing a science fiction story and I got the characters in such a situation I couldn't figure out what to do with them, and so I wrote, “and then the spaceship blew up. The end.” Not an auspicious start. Then in eighth grade I started working at a newspaper, and in the early years, most of it was newspapers. So that's where I developed, I guess you would say, some discipline. You know, you can't wait on the muse. You've got a three o'clock deadline every day. I did that for a few years. I worked in radio for a few years. I helped to launch one of the first electronic magazines. A lot of people know America Online. I was working with a parallel service that was known as Genie. They published a member's magazine, and I wound up as associate editor for that. We launched electronically as well as in print. Let's see, what else. In the old days I co-authored a textbook. I still have to say traditional publishing, I think of them as third party publishers, but you know, the old fashioned way of doing things. So three books there, one of which is still in print, I think. Then in those early days of blogging and electronic magazines, I wrote freelance for some business magazines, some local publications. It was almost always short form except for that textbook. Then I worked in advertising. I worked for Walmart stores and helped to launch the first five Sam's Wholesale Clubs. So that was with copywriting and such. Then in the most recent years, I have scratched that writing itch quite a bit through blogging and academic writing, helping other people to write. As I mentioned in the current book, I did hit a space of about 10 years there when it was like the well went dry. I think this is worthwhile mentioning for folks out there—there's a difference between writer's block and what I was experiencing. It was just that there was nothing there and I really thought my writing days had ended. Then a friend pushed me to write what became the first book in The Spark Life Chronicles, which is a business parable. It was like the floodgates had opened again after 10 years. What I realized was—I think this is the important part to say for maybe others—I thought that I wasn't writing because I was depressed. It turned out I was depressed because I wasn't writing. Now, I don't mean to suggest that all you have to do to get over depression is to write. I think it more has to do with respecting your core values and what's important to you. Writing has always been so important to me in so many ways that when I wasn't doing that, it wasn't feeding my soul. So that's what led to the depression. So I hope that's helpful. Maybe for somebody out there, they kind of go together, depression and not being able to do anything. But the making yourself take those steps can very well be the first step towards coming out of the depression. I found that to be the case with writing. Joanna: Yes, and I think you're right. I mean, there are seasons of our life. Let's talk about a big season of your life, which is the caregiving. So why write this book about caregiving? And just tell us more about your experience and why this matters to you? Donn: Okay, so a real quick context. Our daughter, who is now 22, she has a very rare chromosomal disorder. It's trisomy 14, mosaic partial. And any medical folks out there are going to be saying, I never heard of that. The one study we could find about it said there were 15 to 20 like her known in the world at any given time. Probably more in third world countries, maybe where they don't have genetic testing available, but it's just very rare. The way it manifests with her is, I guess we would say extreme cerebral palsy. She does not even close her epiglottis when she swallows, for instance. So we were older parents when she came along and I had figured I could change diapers for a couple of years. Well, I've been changing diapers for 22 years, which kind of changed things. So that's where the caregiving came in. Now the why write this book? Honestly, I had been writing—I mentioned the Spark Life Chronicles. I've got two books out in that series, and a third one that was about two thirds of the way through. Then you came on my podcast, and thank you. You're an excellent guest, unsurprisingly. I think it was after we had turned off the recording, we were just talking about my situation and you said, well, that sounds like something that would be useful to talk about on the creative end. In the United States alone, there are 50 million caregivers, unpaid caregivers. Now, I don't know what it is in the rest of the world, but with that many, there must be people who are in a similar situation to me in the sense that they already had some success as a writer or a painter, a sculptor, musician, whatever creative field it might be, and then they suddenly find themselves in this caregiving role. So, yes, that sounds great, we should have a conversation about that. It wasn't until we got off of our conversation that I thought, if we're going to be talking about this on The Creative Penn, and I think there are people out there who need this, I should write a book about it. As you know very well, Joanna, we have tried to schedule this thing like three times because of the caregiving situation. It just points out to me that yes, there is a need for this. So this book kind of jumped the queue. It pushed itself ahead of the other book that I was working on. So now my challenge is to get back into that book. Joanna: Well, I think you've underplayed Hannah's situation and your situation. You mentioned changing diapers there, but I mean, it was pretty hardcore caring all the time, right? This wasn't she would just get on with things during the day. Just tell us a bit more about that, because there are all kinds of spectrums of caregiving. Obviously for some people it might be parents with dementia, for some people it's children like for you or a partner. So just tell us how much of your time were you spending caregiving. Donn: Yes, that's a good way to put it in context. For her first four years of life, we did not have nursing care for her because on paper I made too much money. You know, don't get me started on the system. Joanna: Oh, we all have problems with the system for sure, but I think caregiving is a particularly difficult one for sure. Donn: Oh, yes. When she was four years old, she wound up in the hospital for 58 straight days. The technicality there is that meant the hospital became her legal residence and therefore our income didn't figure into it anymore, and she got the nursing care. Again, to give some quick context, she was hospitalized in her first four years 27 times. Then once we got a nursing agency to help us at home, from age four until age 22, she was hospitalized about another 10 times. So it really slowed down and the average stay was much shorter. So that nursing care was tremendously helpful. I don't know how it is elsewhere in this country, and especially in the state of Tennessee where I live, there is a nursing shortage. So even though she qualified for 168 hours a week—that's 24/7—seldom have we had full coverage. So most recently I wound up taking care

Why does the publishing industry feel more chaotic than ever, and what can writers do about it? How do you know if you're truly burned out or just creatively empty? When should successful authors start saying no instead of yes to every opportunity? Becca Syme shares her hard-won wisdom about navigating burnout, embracing unpredictability, and knowing what to quit (and what not to quit) in your writing career. In the intro, Frankfurt Book Fair AI and audio [Audible, Publishers Weekly]; Free Reads by BookBub; Halloween book sale; Writing Storybundle; Today's show is sponsored by Bookfunnel, the essential tool for your author business. Whether it’s delivering your reader magnet, sending out advanced copies of your book, handing out ebooks at a conference, or fulfilling your digital sales to readers, BookFunnel does it all. Check it out at bookfunnel.com/thecreativepenn This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Becca Syme is an author, coach, and creator of the Better Faster Academy. She is a USA Today bestselling author of small town romance and cozy mystery, and also writes the Dear Writer series of non-fiction books. She's also the host of the QuitCast Podcast. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Identifying burnout vs. creative blocks. How long symptoms last and checking for biological/life transition causes first. The transition from saying yes to saying no. Learning when you've reached the point where selectivity becomes essential for sustainability “Loki is in charge.” Why publishing is unpredictable and when to stop analyzing what went wrong. Increased chaos or increased visibility. Whether publishing really has more unpredictability now or we're just seeing it more clearly. What to quit doing. Book signings as investments and judging other authors online, plus the dangers of social media dysregulation. What not to quit. Writing itself and maintaining hope for the future, regardless of industry changes. You can find Becca at betterfasteracademy.com/links. Transcript of Interview with Becca Syme Joanna: Becca Syme is an author, coach, and creator of the Better Faster Academy. She is a USA Today bestselling author of small town romance and cozy mystery, and also writes the Dear Writer series of non-fiction books. She's also the host of the QuitCast Podcast. So welcome back to the show, Becca. Becca: Thank you so much for having me again. I love being here. Joanna: You were last on the show in March 2024, so I guess around 18 months now. Give us an update. What has changed in your writing and your author business? Becca: So I've started writing more fiction again. I think the last time I was here I was doing almost zero fiction writing, just because I was so busy. And I went through burnout, which is not going to surprise anyone. I think we've all been there. One of the things I decided as a post-burnout goal was to try to write fiction every day. I don't every single day do it, but I do it often enough that it feels like I'm doing it every day. So I'm happy about that. Joanna: That's interesting because you hear people saying, “Oh, I've got a block around writing fiction” or something. How do people know if they are in burnout versus they are just empty, or perhaps they have other reasons? How do people tell where they are and the reason why they can't write? Becca: How long it lasts is usually the biggest indicator for me. Because if you're empty and you try to fill again, right? Like, let's go reading, let's go watching, and it doesn't come back, then it's more likely to be burnout. Burnout itself, like the kind of extreme burnout that we hear about where you can't get up off the bathroom floor, that kind of thing, will be real evident when you're in what we call “all systems burnout.” Usually a burnout that is a creative burnout or a physical or emotional burnout can have other potential causes. So I would always go looking for things like, “Am I in perimenopause?” I joke with people, “Is it burnout or am I in perimenopause?” because it feels the same. So I always want to check biological first, or if I'm in a life transition, that's often the reason why I'm more blocked. So I want to look outside at environmental first to see if there's a cause. If there is, then I want the cause to get dealt with. But it's usually time. How long is it lasting? Joanna: How long does it last? I think that's so important. It seems like people blame writing before anything else. I had a friend who had a death in the family and was like, “Oh, I just can't write.” And I'm like, “Give it six months.” Grieving is another reason. There are lots of reasons why your whole self might be like, “Now's not the time to write a cozy mystery” or whatever. Becca: I don't think we consider enough how different it is to be a creative person versus other things you might do for work. If I'm grieving, I can probably still show up to my Starbucks job and do a reasonable job of making coffee most of the time, right? So I may not be as affected in my ability to go to the grocery store or my ability to paint houses or something. But all of our work comes from our brain, so anything that impacts our cognition, anything that impacts our processing time. Honestly, if the stakes go up even just a little bit in our real life, there's a likelihood that it's going to impact our creativity to a point where sometimes, “I'm afraid I might lose my job,” then all of a sudden the creativity dries up and goes away. Or “I'm afraid of what might happen if…” and then insert a million things here that can be making me feel afraid. Creativity can just go away because, again, it's Maslow's hierarchy, right? I know it's not 100% one layer at a time all the time, but if your base level foundation is being attacked, if you don't know for sure how you're going to make your mortgage next month, it's going to be real hard to reach creative freedom if you're worried about stuff. Joanna: Thinking about ourselves as whole people rather than like you can just turn on the writing even if everything else is kind of crazy. I've got to ask you, Becca, since you are a coach, you're a very wise person, you've been on this show lots, and you've helped me, helped many people that you coach, and you've talked about avoiding burnout before— How on earth did you end up in burnout? Becca: So some of it is high stakes, right? It's not uncommon for people when they see a lot of success in their business to be overwhelmed by all the things that there are to do, to have a hard time delegating. It's kind of in the phases of a business and the way businesses grow. There's a phase that is like massive growth. Infrastructure causes massive growth. Then if you don't adapt to that easily or quickly by either offloading things off your plate or lowering the financial stakes, a lot of people will get burned out when they have to make all of these decisions about money. Money stresses them out. So you have high stakes, that means the stress goes up, which means it costs me more energy to do things that I would have done previously with less energy. It can kind of sneak up on you if you're not conscious about it all the time. Then, of course, you have to quit stuff. You would think being the quit coach, I would be really great at that, but it's really hard to quit something that has been good or beneficial, even if it is having a high cost. Joanna: I mean, obviously being a coach, you give a lot of yourself to other people. I just can't imagine how hard that is. I mean, one of the reasons I do this podcast is I hope to help people through the show, but it's not the intensity that coaches like yourself do. How did you then manage to adapt and change things so that now you are out of burnout again? Becca: I'm probably doing more similar things to what you've been doing, which is trying to create more what I would call large scale, right? Like doing more podcast episodes. I'm trying to travel less and be really intentional about the places I travel being worth it for my energy and time. Then I'm also doing more volume. So I'm trying to do more books, more posts, more social media time, things that don't cost me one-on-one. For a long time and probably the last time I was here, I was at maybe not the height, but pretty close to the height. I was coaching eight to ten hours a day, every day sometimes. Joanna: Oh my goodness. Becca: Yes, so I was doing super high volume coaching and then also traveling a lot at the same time. I would travel two times a month for conference speaking sometimes, and every single month of the year. I never really had a break from it, but that was again, my own choice. Nobody forced me to do it. So I had to quit saying yes to everything, which was very difficult. Then I had to quit saying yes to all coaching. I had to do things like raise my coaching prices, but then I also have to create the value in other places. So go back to making the QuitCast again, start producing more non-fiction books, doing more high volume courses like small free courses and stuff like that. So I'm doing similar high volume things, but it is a transition for me who's used to being accessible and reachable and able to help people one-on-one a lot. It's been a challenge. Joanna: I get that. I guess for people listening, I mean, there's a point in your career, whatever that is, where you do have to say yes a lot. Then there's a point where you have to start saying no more. How do people figure out when the hell that is? Is it like you say, at the point of overwhelm,

How can authors write about climate change without preaching? What happens when your publisher goes under just before your book launch? How do theatre skills translate to better dialogue, readings, and author events? With author and theater director Laura Baggaley. In the intro, Indie presses are in existential crisis [The Bookseller]; what to do when things are hard [Wish I'd Known Then]; Book marketing with garlic-infused ink [The Guardian]; Writing Storybundle; Halloween horror promo; Blood Vintage folk horror; My new author photos; Day of the Dead [Books and Travel]; Today's show is sponsored by ProWritingAid, writing and editing software that goes way beyond just grammar and typo checking. With its detailed reports on how to improve your writing and integration with writing software, ProWritingAid will help you improve your book before you send it to an editor, agent or publisher. Check it out for free or get 15% off the premium edition at www.ProWritingAid.com/joanna This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Laura Baggaley is an award-nominated children's and YA author, theater director, and also teaches acting, writing, and literature at City Lit College in London. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes How to write climate fiction that embeds solutions in world-building rather than lecturing readers Dealing with publisher collapse and finding empowerment in regaining control of your books Using theatre techniques to write better dialogue and avoid clunky exposition Essential performance skills for author readings, interviews, and public speaking Practical tips for preparing workshops and managing nerves at literary events Building collaborative writing projects and the benefits of author support groups You can find Laura at LauraBaggaley.co.uk. Transcript of Interview with Laura Baggaley Jo: Laura Baggaley is an award-nominated children's and YA author, theater director, and also teaches acting, writing, and literature at City Lit College in London. So welcome to the show, Laura. Laura: Thank you, Jo. It's lovely to be here. Jo: Yes, I'm excited to talk to you today. First up— Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and publishing. Laura: Well, I was one of those kids who always had their nose in a book, you know, loved reading. Whenever anyone said, “What are you going to be when you grow up?” I would say, “A writer,” like, straight away, no question about it. So that was always the plan. In my late teens, I changed schools for sixth form. I went to this school that was really strong on performing arts. I started to get into drama and doing lots of acting and school plays. Then at university started directing plays, which was even more fun than acting. I just found myself pursuing a different path and became a theater director for about 15 years. That was really creatively exciting, but after a while, I started to feel something was missing, I guess. Of course the writing had been completely sidelined, but I came back to it and I started writing again. First of all, I started working on a literary novel that I was trying to craft with extremely beautiful language and lovely sentences. When I got to the end of the draft and I read it, I realized it was incredibly boring because like nothing happened in the book. So I put that in a drawer and started again. I started working on another one and I was sort of crafting my sentences. And anyway, fortunately about halfway through that one, I had this idea, this story came to me about a 15-year-old kid in a dystopian future. It had to be a young protagonist and it had to be a YA book. I just really wanted to tell this story. So I chucked the boring literary half-written draft in that same drawer and started working on the YA book. So that's where I really started to sort of find my voice as it were. Jo: Where did it go from there? When was that? Laura: Oh gosh, before the pandemic, which is kind of how we judge everything time-wise these days, isn't it? I think it was 2019 that I was a finalist in the Mslexia Children's Fiction Competition with that manuscript. So I'd obviously written it before then, and then through that competition, got an agent and had wrote another book, and got a publishing deal with a small indie publisher called Neem Tree Press. Jo: I wanted to talk to you about this. So you were a finalist, Mslexia, if people don't know, is very prestigious magazine here in the UK. You've got an agent, you've got a deal. So what happened then? What happened with the publishing experience? Laura: Well, I think the term is probably rollercoaster. I was really excited to sign this contract and obviously to have this publishing contract. But what happened was, publication obviously takes a long time. So it was going to be 18 months or so before the book came out. After about a year of this process, Neem Tree Press merged with a much bigger UK publisher called Unbound. And they were saying how great this was because obviously there were advantages of scale, like wider distribution to bookshops, that kind of thing. I don't think that Neem Tree Press quite realized how much financial trouble Unbound was in when they merged. Essentially Unbound folded and took Neem Tree press down with them. So the two books that I'd been so excited to get published with Neem Tree have not been published. However, on the plus side, the rights have reverted to me, and now I can do what I want with them. So they will be coming out, just not with Neem Tree Press. The good thing was, is that in the meantime I'd got on with writing another YA book and that has been published by Habitat Press. So I carried on writing. Jo: The thing is we hear this over and over again. Like there's pros and cons with small press versus big houses and one of the benefits of a big house is it's very unlikely to go under. But one of the benefits of small press is you get a lot more attention and you know the people and you feel it's a much more personal process. There's pros and cons every which way, but over the years I've been in publishing, almost 20 years now, so many small press companies either get bought or things happen. Things happen. Let's just say things happen. So this happened. How did you deal with this, like mentally and thinking about whether it was all going to happen? Because obviously writers look forward to their publication and you're going through this process. So how did you deal with all that time? Laura: As I say, it was really up and down. There were some months early on where I was really down about it because I just didn't hear anything. So I think that was the most frustrating thing is I'd be sending emails saying, “When are we going to start on the edits?” and just not hear anything. So it felt like I was sort of being ghosted, you know? The positive thing I think was that because of listening to your podcast and doing lots of research into indie publishing, I'd already decided that even if I had a traditional publishing deal, I was going to pursue my author business in an entrepreneurial way. So I'd already decided, you know, why can't a traditionally published author have a reader magnet, for example? So I got on with doing things in the meantime. I wasn't just waiting, and I think if I just waited, it would have been really crushing. As it was when I finally had the sort of confirmation that Neem Tree Press had closed and there was no chance of the books being published, what I felt was relief and a sense of almost kind of empowerment. As like, well, thank goodness the books are mine again. Now I can get on with publishing them. Jo: That's really interesting. I think that empowerment, it's such a good energy. Being long time indie, I think that empowerment and that sort of, “I can do this” and like you said, “I got on with doing things.” If you are a doer and you like doing things, then being an indie author is a good thing because you can move at your pace. Let's face it— Even if you do get a deal with whoever, the person who cares the most about your book is you. Laura: Exactly. Exactly. I think just that feeling of I'm not going to wait for permission anymore. I've had enough of that. Habitat Press, who brought out Dirt, my new book, they've been a joy to work with because they're much more flexible and collaborative. So I don't feel like I've given up all my power working with them, so that's really nice. Jo: But you are going to self-publish those other two? Laura: TBC. I'm hoping that one of them might come out with Habitat Press and one of them will be self-published. That's the current plan. I'm waiting for Habitat Press to read the greener one because Habitat Press is the green, environmental kind of publisher. Jo: Yes. Well, let's talk about that because your novel Dirt is eco fiction or climate fiction, and this is turning into a bit of a niche. So tell us what are the hallmarks of that genre. How can authors write in important areas, but not bash people over the head with a message? Laura: That is so important, isn't it? Yes. So what climate fiction is, I mean, I'd say it's any story with a focus on environmental or climate issues. So it could be a thriller, it could be a romance, it could be crime fiction. It's a really kind of broad genre. But from my perspective, when I think about it, the key thing is climate solutions. It's about looking forward to joyful possibilities and about kind of normalizing positive action. So not writing a book to tell everybody to buy an electric car or something, but

How do you stand out as an author when thousands of books are published every day? What's the difference between having a logo and having a real brand that sells books? Is it possible to maintain your authentic voice while appealing to genre readers who seem more loyal to categories than authors? With Steve Brock In the intro, Baker & Taylor shutting down [The Bottom Line]; Holiday promotions for your books [Productive indie fiction writer]; Writing Storybundle; Updating Shopify metadata — Hextom app; Publishing and change [Publishing Perspectives]; Paying AIs to read my books [Kevin Kelly]; signing my special editions at BookVault; The Critically Reflective Practitioner; Deliciously twisted Halloween book sale. Today's show is sponsored by Draft2Digital, self-publishing with support, where you can get free formatting, free distribution to multiple stores, and a host of other benefits. Just go to www.draft2digital.com to get started. This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Steve Brock is a nonfiction author, photographer, and branding expert. His books include Hidden Travel, which he has talked about on my Books and Travel podcast, as well as The Creative Wild, Make Something Beautiful, and Brand Something Beautiful: A Branding Workbook for Artists, Writers, and Other Creatives. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Brand vs. reputation. Why branding is about perception in readers' minds, not just visual consistency Discovery vs. creation. How to uncover what makes you distinctive Standing out in crowded genres. Techniques for differentiating yourself while still satisfying genre expectations Multiple pen names. Managing branded houses vs. house of brands when writing across different audiences From brand to sales. Converting nebulous brand concepts into practical marketing confidence and clear messaging Beautiful book production. Creating workbooks and products that command attention in an AI-saturated market You can find Steve at BrandSomethingBeautiful.com or brandsomethingbeautiful.substack.com. Transcript of the interview with Steve Brock Joanna: Steve Brock is a nonfiction author, photographer, and branding expert. His books include Hidden Travel, which he has talked about on my Books and Travel podcast, as well as The Creative Wild, Make Something Beautiful, and Brand Something Beautiful: A Branding Workbook for Artists, Writers, and Other Creatives, which we are talking about today. Welcome to the show, Steve. Steve: Thank you, Joanna. It's a pleasure to be here. Joanna: So much to talk about. But first up— Tell us a bit more about how you got into writing and publishing and branding. Steve: I've written all my adult life, but it was more in the realms of school writing and then working in branding and marketing agencies, doing a lot of marketing copy and ad copy. Then in 2007, I think, I had this sense of wanting to work on a book, which was the one that ended up becoming Hidden Travel. It only took 14 years to get that from idea to publication. Since then, as you mentioned, some other books, so I've embraced that. The branding has come along actually in parallel, and it's a great point of how one area of your life, particularly your creative life, affects the other. Branding fundamentally is about telling your story well. It's understanding who you are, what you do, and what makes you different. There's a lot of storytelling involved. So the more I focus and spend time on writing, particularly in the fiction realm, which has been mostly just short stories for me lately, the more that it has improved the work of branding. I find branding interesting because, like we've talked about with travel, branding is really about exploration. It's diving deep into understanding something that is hidden and bringing that to light. Joanna: Before we get back into branding— You mentioned short stories there. Are you publishing those? Steve: No, those have always been a sideline. I have a novel that I started when I got stuck on Hidden Travel, and it's about maybe a third done, so that'll be the next effort that I focus on for the fiction realm. But no, the short stories have always just been more for my own craft building and just the enjoyment of it. I'm looking forward to actually reading yours that's coming out, or is it out? Joanna: Well, as we record this, the Kickstarter has just finished. So depending on when this comes out, it may be available. The Buried and the Drowned is my short story collection. I think it's interesting because you can play with short stories and you can explore, as you mentioned there, exploring and looking at hidden things. I think it's much easier to play around with short stories because you can just do such different things. Let's come to branding, because the word “brand” is really difficult and people are already flinching. They're like, “Oh, I don't want to think about author brand.” So you mentioned a little bit there, but— How are you defining brand as it relates to authors? And why should we even care about this? Steve: The word “brand” applies whether you are a major corporation, a nonprofit organization, a single solopreneur, or an author, because it's all about perception. A lot of people think of branding as being about your logo or your tagline, or maybe the colors that you use in the background of your Instagram reels and having consistency there. That's part of it, but it's such a small part of it. Branding is fundamentally about the overall perception that people have of you or your creative work. If I say, for example, Stephen King, or James Patterson, or Toni Morrison, there are going to be associations you have with each of those people, and those associations are actually what make up their brand. The brand is a tricky thing because we think we can control it, but we can't. The brand exists in the minds of your audiences. So for writers, that means the minds of your readers out there. Your job is to craft it, to know the story you want people to tell and be able to reinforce that over time so that they're telling the same story. Because if you do not know the story you want to tell, someone else is going to do it for you, and most likely in a way that's not going to be helpful to you. So just think of brand almost like your reputation. What are you doing to build up your reputation? That's maybe the simplest way to think about brand and branding. Joanna: For authors, I mean for me, I have Joanna Penn and I have J.F. Penn. So for anyone who's writing under two names, are we thinking about two brands? Steve: Yes and no. Because you show up in a lot of places. For example, on this podcast, you show up as both people, not your products necessarily, but you as a person that represents both of those brands. When you have an author brand with multiple pen names, there are elements of that you may want to keep discrete and separate. But on the other hand, in your case, the real divide there is—to oversimplify—J.F. Penn for the fiction and Joanna Penn for the nonfiction. You as the person and the brand that you represent, there's a lot of consistency between those two. What you don't want to do is if those two brand names or author names are different and they represent two completely different audiences that you really want to keep separate. The example I give in the book is if you're writing both children's illustrated fiction books and you're also writing erotica, you do not want those two audiences to even really know that you're the same person. So you would keep those dramatically separate. It's the same in the corporate world where we talk about what the fancy jargony term is “a brand spectrum.” You have, for example, a branded house like BMW, and then a house of brands like Procter & Gamble, which has a whole bunch of sub-brands underneath that, and some people may not even know that Procter & Gamble is behind those. If your pen names are really different genres, you're probably more like a house of brands. Whereas if you have a consistent vibe or theme or thing you want to be known for, you would be more like a branded house, even if you have different pen names. Joanna: I like “branded house” and I like “brand spectrum.” That feels more natural, I think. There are also two angles that potentially we can approach this from. Maybe we can take them separately. One is new author or author wanting to start a new pen name, wanting to construct a brand from nothing, from scratch—actually control it and build it. The other way is discovery branding, let's call it, where you look back at your work and you go, “I guess I've somehow created a brand. I just can't figure out really what it is, but I just keep writing stuff and it kind of gets created.” Could you tackle those two ends of the spectrum, of creating it from nothing versus discovering it? Steve: That's a great question because I would say that discovering it is probably the more common approach. One of the elements of your brand is your voice or your style, and I define those as three different things. Brand is the overarching perception. Style is the visual representation of the brand. Voice is the verbal or written representation. I think that part of finding what your style and your voice are comes through discovery almost entirely. If you try to overthink it, it's really hard. If you start that journey of discovery, focusing on a consistent and distinctive voice, it kind of emerges naturally and it's easy to step into that. There's a point though, even on a discovery brand as y

How do you know when it's time to wrap up one phase of your life and move on to the next? What's the secret to staying connected as a writer when you're working alone? And if you have multiple passions and endless ideas, how do you actually finish things instead of constantly starting new projects? Pilar Orti gives her tips in this interview. In the intro, Writing Storybundle; An honest accounting from an extensive self audit of an indie author publishing business [The Author Stack]; Money books; Direct purchases through ChatGPT; Book discovery and GEO; The ultimate guide to AEO [Lenny's Podcast]; Conversions through Chat [SearchEngineLand]; SORA video app; AI for eCommerce and Amazon Sellers; Deliciously twisted Halloween book sale. This podcast is sponsored by Kobo Writing Life, which helps authors self-publish and reach readers in global markets through the Kobo eco-system. You can also subscribe to the Kobo Writing Life podcast for interviews with successful indie authors. This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Pilar Orti is a nonfiction and memoir author, as well as a voiceover artist, podcaster, and Pilates instructor. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights, and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Wrapping up life phases with books. Using writing to process and close chapters of your personal and professional journey Connection strategies for remote workers and writers. Understanding your own connection style and respecting others' preferences Co-writing across continents. The practical process of collaborating with someone you've never met in person Using AI as a writing collaborator. How generative AI helped overcome the blank page and create a unified voice Knowing when to end projects. Recognising the signs that it's time to stop versus push through challenges Being a finisher in a world of ideas. Balancing multiple interests while actually completing projects You can find Pilar at PilarWrites.com or on LinkedIn. Transcript of interview with Pilar Orti Jo: Pilar Orti is a nonfiction and memoir author, as well as a voiceover artist, podcaster, and Pilates instructor. So welcome to the show, Pilar. Pilar: Thank you very much, Jo. Hello everyone. Hello creatives. It's exciting to talk to you. Jo: Tell us a bit more about you, how you got into writing and podcasting, and your multi-passionate career. Pilar: I'm going to try and give you the bit that's more related to writing, because if not, we'll be here for half an hour just with me bubbling on. I always liked writing, and I was thinking about this, I wrote my first play to be performed when I was seven. I got all my friends together and we did this little show. I think it was about a soldier or something, I don't know why. All throughout my teens I kept writing plays and got my friends together to do them, and we put on the shows. Looking back, I think for me writing has always been about sharing. All the writing I've done, I've always wanted it to be public, so I've never journaled or anything like that. I continued writing plays. Eventually I set up a theater company with a friend and we did some plays. Then I did a translation of a Lorca play, When Five Years Pass. That was the first time that I started to think that my work could be published in some way. So I looked for literary managers in theaters to see if they were interested in the show. I even sent it to Samuel French and Oberon Books, all these small presses that specialized in theater. They all came back with that same thing: “It's a great translation, but it's really niche and nobody's going to want to see this Lorca play.” So I started to think about how to put it out there and came across self-publishing. Once I saw that my work could get out there relatively easily—I didn't have to go through the whole trying to find a publisher process—I started to write a lot more. I continued doing some stuff for the theater company and then I started blogging as well. We're talking now about the end of the 90s, 2000s. Then I wrote a book called The A to Z of Spanish Culture, which was supposed to be a nice project with lots of friends. We would each take a letter of the alphabet and of course, like these projects go, everyone dropped out and I ended up doing the whole thing myself. Jo: We should just say at this point, you're Spanish. Are you writing at this point in English or in both? Pilar: So I went to an English school. I landed there when I was five, in Madrid. So I'm bilingual. My first written language is English and my first spoken language is Spanish. Unfortunately I've dropped writing in Spanish and I really struggle, but my entire academic career has also been in English. So I think English is the language I feel most comfortable in when I'm writing. Everything I've written has been in English. Looking at The A to Z of Spanish Culture, I was sharing an office with a theater company and a couple of other theater companies at the time. At some point I mentioned this book, and someone said, “Oh, you're a writer or you want to publish some books. You have to listen to this great podcast called The Creative Penn.” That was my gateway into the whole world of podcasting. I mean, I knew about podcasting because I'm also a voiceover artist—I've been one since '98—but that really opened up that world. So I continued writing, and my relationship with writing up to a couple of years ago was just that I wrote mainly nonfiction about things I wanted to write about, looking back at where I was at that time. Then I published a book on physical theater, a very small book, just as I was leaving the theater company. I also wrote a little book about my life as a voiceover as I saw that work was starting to dry out. I think I'm wrapping up parts of my life with books. Last year, as I came to the end of my consultancy career talking about working with remote teams, I spent some time just writing, either editing something I was working on or writing. I decided after trying it for a few months that now was the time to write all those books I wanted to write and to also start looking at my writing as the main thing I was focusing on, because as you said, I always do lots of things. So that's where I am with the writing. Jo: I like this idea of wrapping up parts of your life with books. I actually think that's a really interesting comment and I definitely feel that. I guess I've started to do that too. I feel that it's true for me, for my fiction as well. My Desecration, Delirium and Deviance series, I wrote when we were in London and they're about London. When I moved to Bath, I wrote my Matt Walker series, which was set in Bath. Then the Pilgrimage book was about that pilgrimage. So I really like that insight, that sort of wrapping up parts of your life with books. Just coming back, you said you finished the consulting side. Was that a decision? I really wanted to get your insights on this finishing up things. Why did you stop doing the consulting side of things? Pilar: It's a mixture of things and I think also a great reflection of why do we end things, especially professional ones. I set up a consultancy called “Virtual Not Distant” around maybe nine, ten years ago to help leaders of remote teams and remote teams. Of course that was a different world then. Then through the pandemic, as we know, it all exploded. So I started to get more work, but maybe not the kind of work I really wanted to do. I was coming into helping remote teams and remote work as an alternative way of working and something that could be embraced and set up carefully and in a sustainable way. What I found after all the lockdowns and all the remote work—the forced remote work—and as organizations started to adopt maybe a little bit more flexible working, hybrid work, the clients or the people I would end up working with were not the ones that I should be helping. Or at least I couldn't help them in the way I wanted to help them because I have my vision. What had been left was a very different world. I just wasn't comfortable anymore with what I was finding when I was going in. At the same time, let's be honest, the work started to dry up. There wasn't this need anymore for people who needed to work remotel. They'd figured out some version that worked more or less for them. I see it with my peers as well, that the whole cohort, almost everyone has pivoted or shifted. So it was a mixture of both. I have to say that I don't think the market wanted me anymore as much, because before the pandemic it was great fun. But also I couldn't shape that way of working like I wanted to. So I decided to write more instead about it, as you say, to wrap up. Jo: That's interesting. So this new book, Connection and Disconnection in Remote Teams, this is really, as you've said, summing up all your thoughts and what your ideal situation is, I guess. Lots of people listening work their day jobs separately and often write alone. Writers, we're often disconnected in many ways and we are not really in teams, but certainly I feel like connection and disconnection are huge themes for writers. Give us some tips for connecting with other humans when we work disconnected. Pilar: Unfortunately one of the reasons I left consultancy was because all my answers were “it depends,” and that's why I moved into Pilates teaching because that is very set and “it depends” very little. A few things—when I'm talking about wrapping up, I think that's going to be my theme. In 2019, this season of Connection and Disconnection in Remote Teams was a podcast season that I created with a collabor

Have you optimized the seven essential elements of your Amazon book page before you even consider marketing? Are you making the most of A+ content, and advertising with Amazon? Amazon Ads expert Geoff Affleck gives his tips. In the intro, potential TikTok US changes [BBC]; Special editions [Written Word Media]; Self-Publishing with Dale Kickstarter books; Successful Self-Publishing Fourth Edition; Egypt beyond the pyramids, an example of fiction-adjacent content marketing [Books and Travel]; British Powerlifting; Starting something new, clearing space, beginner's mind, and Leuchtturm1917 journals. This episode is supported by my patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Geoff Affleck is a bestselling nonfiction author, self-publishing consultant, and Amazon ads expert working with authors to produce and promote their books through his business, Authorpreneur Publishing. Geoff is originally Australian but now lives in Canada. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes The seven essential elements every Amazon book page needs before spending a penny on advertising, from cover design to A+ Content Why Amazon ads work like shopping in the soup aisle (targeted intent) versus Facebook ads being like impulse candy purchases at checkout How series authors can break even on book one ads while making profits from organic read-through on subsequent books The critical difference between automatic ads and manual targeting, and why manual campaigns with specific ASINs get better results When new authors should start advertising (even with few reviews) and how established authors should maintain their backlist keywords and categories You can find Geoff at GeoffAffleck.com. Transcript of the interview with Geoff Affleck Joanna: Geoff Affleck is a bestselling nonfiction author, self-publishing consultant, and Amazon ads expert working with authors to produce and promote their books through his business, Authorpreneur Publishing. Geoff is originally Australian but now lives in Canada. So welcome to the show, Geoff. Geoff: Hi Joanna, thanks for having me here. It's great. Joanna: Yes, this is an interesting topic. So first up— Tell us a bit more about you, how you got into writing and self-publishing, and why you decided to move into author services. Geoff: Sure. It was about 15 years ago that I started getting involved in this industry. I had always been involved in marketing in more of a corporate job. I got involved in personal development for myself, just for personal growth, and managed to connect up with some New York Times bestselling authors who appeared in the movie The Secret. Joanna: Oh yes, wonderful time! Geoff: Right. So I worked as a marketing director for a couple of these authors who were part of that movie and, as a result, got exposed to the world of traditional publishing because they had New York Times bestselling books. We started a course where we would invite people to come and learn about—basically the premise was we'll teach you how to become a bestselling self-help author. I was the marketing guy, mostly talking about building their author platforms, and became really interested in the self-publishing side of it because that was really the door that most of these authors would come into rather than traditional, and had to learn very quickly about self-publishing. So this was, as I mentioned, probably now 2012 or thereabouts. As I learned about self-publishing, we decided to self-publish a book ourselves, the four of us. Since then, I've just continued to be really enamored by the whole industry. I realized quickly that I'm not really an author. I've co-authored a number of books, but writing's not my passion, although copywriting is, but not story writing. I really love the production side of it and the book launches, the marketing, especially with Amazon. So that's really where I focused in my business over the last eight years or so. Joanna: That's so funny with The Secret—it brings back those days. I remember reading that and it's where I really first learned about affirmations. My first affirmation that really changed my life was “I am creative. I am an author.” And I said that years before it actually happened. I know it's funny now, isn't it? We kind of look back and I don't think it's been tarnished, but there's not so much a halo around the law of attraction stuff. At the time, I feel like that really made such a big hit. A lot of the mindset stuff around it I still feel is valuable. Let's get into the advertising stuff, but before we get into that, I feel like a lot of authors jump into ads like they're some kind of magic bullet. What are the basic things that an author needs to get right with their Amazon book sales page before they even think about advertising? We're going to focus on Amazon today. Geoff: Right. Yes, absolutely. This is the starting point, and it should be the starting point for anyone who's looking to publish a book, let alone promote it or spend money on it with Amazon ads. You have to think about the conversions. What I mean by that is that if you're going to generate clicks to your book page, you have to be confident that a reasonable percentage of those clicks will turn into orders, or if you're in Kindle Unlimited, you know, Kindle Unlimited page reads. The number that we look for is 10%. So if you get 10 clicks from an ad, you want to get one sale or the equivalent of that in page reads. So it's really important to optimize your Amazon page—some people call it a product page or a book listing—so that when people land, they're going to be attracted to buying your book. Just makes sense, doesn't it? Joanna: Mm-hmm. Geoff: There are about seven elements that we focus on that you really need to get right, and you need to get all of them right. Sometimes just having one of them a little bit off can skew it. I could do a two-hour talk on this, but I'll just give you a quick introduction. Obviously the first one is the book cover. And that's the one that actually helps generate ad clicks because people don't see a lot about your book. They just see the cover, the title, how many reviews you have and so on. If it looks interesting, they'll click on it. So if you've got a cover that stands out as a little thumbnail on an Amazon ad, you're more likely to get a higher click-through rate on your ads, which means more traffic. So that's super important. Of course, the cover has to be aligned with the genre and be legible and all of that. Here's one that a lot of people miss, and it's the attention to keywords. You probably know that when you self-publish, there's seven keywords you can put in the metadata when you upload your book to Amazon, right? Most people don't give a lot of thought to that—just put in some words and hope that's okay. Keywords are really important, and it's a whole thing to learn how to get them right. Finding keywords that are popular yet not too competitive is the key because that's what Amazon's algorithm looks at when it's deciding whether your book's going to show up or not on a search. It's really important to get at least one good keyword phrase into your title or, more often, into your subtitle. I see a lot of authors that they'll publish a novel with a title and then leave the subtitle blank. So adding a subtitle that describes a little bit about the genre or a trope—like “A Billionaire Office Romance” could be a subtitle for a romance novel—that tells the reader something, but it also tells the algorithm something. That is one of the most important fields I find. If you're only relying on your seven keywords, I think you're potentially missing out on organic traffic. Beyond that— Obviously people look at how many reviews you have and what the quality is of the average star rating. Those are super important. So doing whatever you can to boost the number of reviews and ratings early on will give your conversion rate a big boost. So beyond that though— We've got to have a strong blurb. Usually there's a whole structure for blurbs, but not too long. Back even a few years ago, we were writing longer blurbs. Now it's around 200 words. A really strong headline with a hook, bolded is nice. Short paragraphs, the right elements, and then a call to action. I won't go any further than that, but that is key. But beyond that, a lot of people don't read blurbs. They kind of skim them. That's why shorter is often a little bit better. Increasingly, A+ Content is another way to supplement the blurb. So it's kind of like an additional blurb where we can put graphics up on the page that will help the reader understand more about the book and some reasons why they should buy it. Finally, I think price is really important. It can't be too high or even too low—that can sometimes be a disincentive because price and quality are often correlated. You've got to make sure your books are in the right categories, so that's really important too. Categories that are relevant. Sometimes I see people, even people who are helping other authors, put their books in categories that just aren't relevant in order to try to game the system and get a bestseller badge. That just doesn't work. Joanna: Yeah, that again feels like a tactic from like 15 years ago. Geoff: Let's just put it here in basket weaving, even though it's a basket weaving romance! Joanna: That is interesting. Lots of things to come back on here, but the A+ Content—your team helped me do some A+ Content for my How to Write a Novel book. I think as a buyer, like as a reader, I never, ever, ever scr

Are you truly procrastinating, or are you protecting yourself from uncomfortable emotions? What if the real reason you're not finishing your book has nothing to do with laziness or lack of motivation? Colleen Story explores the types of procrastination that keep writers stuck and how you can move past them into success. In the intro, lessons learned from 14 years as an author entrepreneur; Surprised by Pilgrimage on The Leader's Way Podcast; Blood Vintage, out now. Write and format stunning books with Atticus. Create professional print books and eBooks easily with the all-in-one book writing software. Try it out at Atticus.io This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Colleen Story is the award-winning author of historical fantasy, supernatural thrillers and motivational books for writers. Her latest book is Escape the Writer's Web: Untangle Your Procrastination Type, Discover Personalized Solutions, and Transform Your Writing Life. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Why procrastination is an emotional coping technique that protects your current identity How “overthinker” writers use learning and courses to avoid actually writing their own work The “guilty type” who feels bad whether they're writing or not writing Why perfectionist writers fear failure so much they endlessly revise the same manuscript for years How successful writers still procrastinate on uncomfortable tasks like submissions and marketing The power of five-minute timed sessions and small wins to ease into a new writing identity You can find Colleen at ColleenMStory.com and MasterWriterMindset.com. Transcript of interview with Colleen M. Story Joanna: Colleen Story is the award-winning author of historical fantasy, supernatural thrillers and motivational books for writers. Her latest book is Escape the Writer's Web: Untangle Your Procrastination Type, Discover Personalized Solutions, and Transform Your Writing Life. So welcome to the show, Colleen. Colleen: Thanks, Joanna. It's great to be here. I'm really excited to have this chat today. Joanna: It's such an interesting topic. But first up— Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing. Colleen: Well, you know, I wasn't one of those people who knew from the time I was in the cradle that I wanted to be a writer. I hear about that a lot, that people seem to know early on. I did not. I always enjoyed reading. I don't know if anybody will remember the bookmobile that used to come down the street in our neighborhood. That was a highlight of my week, going out and seeing the books in the bookmobile. So I was always a big reader, and I enjoyed whenever there was an essay test in school. I was thrilled because I felt like I could do well at those. I didn't think about writing until I had actually graduated with my music degree. Music came first for me. I graduated with a music degree and had moved to a different state, which gave me a little time to think. When you go to a different state, I would have had to have gone back to more classes to have gotten my teaching certificate in that state. So I just kind of took some time to think. It was during that time that I got bit by the writing bug. It's just kind of weird how it happened, but it was like out of the blue. I wanted to all of a sudden write stories. I grabbed a word processor—shows you how long ago this was—and started writing short stories. Within three years I had gotten my first short story published and I got a $10 check for it, which felt so awesome. I had to frame that and put it up. It's still on my writing desk. So that kind of changed the whole trajectory of my career because I continued to teach music privately, and I still play in the local symphonies and pit orchestras, but as far as my job went, writing just was the thing. After I got that publication, it was soon after that a copywriting job opened in my town and I got it. That kind of sent me on this new career. I started out as a corporate copywriter and was promoted to managing editor before I left there. I was there for about three years. My dream at that point was to write a novel and have it traditionally published. I knew that as long as I worked for the corporation, I wouldn't have the time to devote to that—that I needed to really learn the craft of writing a novel. So I went ahead and went freelance so that I could control my schedule a bit more. I worked on the side for about six months and then turned in my notice. I've been a freelance writer full-time ever since then. So that got me into the business side of writing. Then on the side I was working on novels for many, many years and got my first novel published in 2015. As of this year, I've now published 10 books, both fiction and nonfiction. That's kind of how it happened for me. I almost fell into it accidentally, but I'm really glad I did. Joanna: That's interesting. So are they all traditionally published or are you hybrid now? Colleen: I am hybrid. Yes, my novels were all traditionally published until my very latest series, the historical fantasy series. So my first three were traditionally published. Then when I started writing for writers, that kind of happened accidentally too. I had never intended to be a nonfiction writer. But when my second novel came out, the publisher—this was back in 2017 when it was released—was wanting you to build more of an online author platform. The one that I had started, the blog I had started, was not doing very well. So I wanted to try something else. I ended up combining my day job expertise, which was really as a health and wellness writer, with my passion for creativity and I created what was then called Writing and Wellness. I've since morphed that into Master Writer Mindset, but Writing and Wellness kind of took off and was doing very well. I started getting invitations to go speak at conferences and workshops and things. During that time I was really discussing issues with writers and realizing that they needed some help in different areas of productivity. Time management at that time was what I was looking into, and I decided I wanted to go ahead and write a book on that. But I didn't want to submit it to a publisher because I knew I would have to create a marketing plan and everything for it, and then I would have to allow them to change it however they felt that they should. I kind of knew what writers were looking for at that point. I wanted more control over that book so I could really deliver what my writers and my subscribers were telling me they needed. So that's when I dove into self-publishing, was with my writing books, and I've done those that way ever since. Joanna: That's interesting. So then this book, which is about procrastination specifically, I mean, to me it's like, wow, a whole book on procrastination. You were not procrastinating when you decided on this one. I said to you before we started recording, I personally don't understand procrastination because I just don't suffer from it myself, but I know that lots of other writers do. So when you sent this to me, I was like, oh yes, this is something that writers really do need. It was interesting, but— You don't sound much like a procrastinator. So why did you decide to pick this topic? Colleen: It was interesting, and right, I never would have thought of myself as a procrastinator. I typically do surveys of my subscribers and it seems like over the years… I mean, I started the Writing and Wellness, I think it was around 2015. So it's been about 10 years and I will regularly do these surveys. Repeatedly the subject of productivity, time management, and procrastination would come back as one of the main things that writers were struggling with every year that I would survey. So I had done some articles, some blog posts on procrastination. I did a couple of YouTube videos on it, but I kept hearing this come back to me. I also would talk to writers at conferences and things, or even at signings. I would have people come up and say, “I started this book and I never finished it,” or “I really wanted to write this book, but I just never did.” I would talk to writers over and over again and just see this haunted look in their faces about this dream that was untapped. They just had not been able to find a way to finish it. Then even those writers who had dove in with lots of enthusiasm and maybe were halfway through and then they got stuck, or maybe they got almost finished, but then they weren't sure what to do next. So the story would end up sitting there and they would never actually complete that cycle. That made me feel really badly because I know what a joy it is to actually go through, finish the project, put it out there, get feedback, and then be on that road of actually being a writer. There are so many benefits to that that it just felt so badly for these people who were struggling with the different steps along the way that would lead to procrastination. It's interesting though, as I started doing research for this book, which I did quite a bit, that I did learn that I had procrastinated in the past in certain ways. Because procrastination doesn't always look like completely avoiding the project or scrolling your TikTok feed while you're supposed to be writing. These are the ways we normally think of what procrastination looks like, and I don't usually do those things. I learned as I was doing the research that I had done some other forms of procrastination that I didn't realize at the time were procrastination. Joanna: So what were they? Now I'm writing down

What are the challenges of writing and publishing books for children? How can you publish high-quality books and still make a profit? How can you market books to children effectively in a scalable manner? Darcy Pattison gives her tips. In the intro, Novel Writing November; Business models and ethics for authors [Self-Publishing with ALLi]; AI-Assisted Artisan Author – my final AI webinar for 2025; Metal-working! with WTF Workshops, Bristol; Blood Vintage, a folk horror novel – out now on my store, coming 15 October everywhere. Today's show is sponsored by ProWritingAid, writing and editing software that goes way beyond just grammar and typo checking. With its detailed reports on how to improve your writing and integration with writing software, ProWritingAid will help you improve your book before you send it to an editor, agent or publisher. Check it out for free or get 15% off the premium edition at www.ProWritingAid.com/joanna This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Darcy Pattison is the multi-award winning bestselling author of more than 70 fiction and non-fiction books for children across multiple age groups. Her book for authors is Publish: Find Surprising Success Self-Publishing Your Children's Book. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Why writing children's picture books is more challenging than you might think Why Darcy moved from traditional publishing books to self-publishing for creative freedom and business control Working with illustrators through contracts, sketch revisions, and treating them as professional collaborators Using multiple print-on-demand services (Ingram, KDP, Lulu) instead of expensive offset printing for 70+ book catalog Marketing to educators through state and national conferences rather than individual school visits for scalable reach Focusing on STEM narrative nonfiction as a reliable income while still writing fiction passion projects Longevity as an author You can find Darcy at IndieKidsBooks.com and MimsHouseBooks.com. You can find the Kickstarter here. Transcript of Interview with Darcy Pattison Joanna: Darcy Pattison is the multi-award winning bestselling author of more than 70 fiction and non-fiction books for children across multiple age groups. Her book for authors is Publish: Find Surprising Success Self-Publishing Your Children's Book. So welcome to the show, Darcy. Darcy: I'm so excited to be here today. Joanna: This is such a great topic. So first up— Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and publishing. Darcy: Well, I have four children and I found myself reading books to them, and at some point I wanted to be on the flip side of that—to write the books that were read to kids. So I started writing. It took a long time for me to learn the craft of writing children's books. It's very different than adult books. Picture books especially are very different than just a novel. So it took me a while, but I finally got an offer on a picture book, and I have eight traditionally published books. Then at some point I decided that it was better for me to bring books to market myself. We'll probably talk about that more, but I'm actually a hybrid at this point. I do some pop-up books with a small Christian press, so I'm designing the pop-ups, but I do a lot of nonfiction STEM books for kids. I also do several novel series. Joanna: I think that's really interesting. First up, you said that the craft of writing children's books is different, picture books in particular. So just tell us more about that craft side, because I feel like often people say, “Oh well, it's only a few thousand words. It must be super easy compared to writing a lot more words.” Tell us about the craft side of writing children's books. Darcy: I do teach writing picture books all the time for the Highlights Foundation and other places. Picture books are a very tight art form. I sort of compare it to writing poetry. There are 32 pages, and you have a title page, a half title page, a copyright page. It turns out you have about 14 double page spreads, and in those 14 double page spreads, you have to set up a character and a problem. You have to complicate the story, then resolve it in some satisfying way, in less than 500 words, while leaving room for the illustrator to do their job. So it's a very demanding process. Joanna: And it's not the same now then, because like you say there, the 32 pages and all of this—I mean, this is a very print-heavy issue, I guess—but there are plenty of things now that might be on tablets. Has that shifted at all or is it still a real print-heavy world? Darcy: It still is a print-heavy world for children's books. Most people who independently publish will tell you that 90% of their sales are paperback. It's still 32 pages. I can do 27 pages, I can do 36 pages. The problem is if I ever need to offset print—and I've needed to several times when I have a large order—then it's cheaper if it's 32 pages, because they figured out how to print 32 pages on one piece of paper. If I go to 37 pages, it's two pieces of paper, more expensive. If I do 25 pages, you're wasting paper. So really the 32 pages is because of the requirements of print. I still go with that because children's books, even for independent people like me, are still by and large paperback or hardcover. Joanna: Then I guess, talking about a 32-page picture book, that's not the only thing for children. What is the range of books for children? Darcy: You can do board books. That's for the very young children. Those are hard for self-publishers to do because there's no one who does print-on-demand for that. You have to do offset printing. So those are more difficult. Then starting about age four to eight is picture book world. That's the young readers where the parents are reading to the kid. Then—and the ages are very fluid here because some kids read faster than others—but maybe about six or seven years old, they're starting to read more independently. They want these short chapter books. So those might be 48 pages or 60-page short novels where you're really paying attention. That's the only place where you really have to pay attention to the vocabulary levels for kids. Then after that, you have middle grade, and that would run eight to twelve years old, roughly. Then YA would be—again, the definitions are very fluid—but maybe 14 and up would be young adult. Joanna: Yes, and that YA category now I feel like has moved very adult. So I think that can probably be quite fluid as well, depending on what you find in the store. Let's come back to your journey. You mentioned the hybrid approach. You did eight traditionally published books, but in your book Publish, you said deciding to self-publish was a way to avoid creative death, which I thought was a brilliant line. Maybe you could expand on that and— Why is self-publishing a great choice? Darcy: Self-publishing is a very great choice. There was a time period when I had sold eight books. I teach on a very high level—I teach a novel revision retreat. To come, you must bring a full draft of a novel. We talk about how to revise that novel. One lady came to my retreat, she revised her novel, sent it out for submission. It sold in 11 days flat and went on to win one of the major awards in children's literature in America, the Newbery Honor. So I know what I'm doing. I know how to write, and yet I could not sell anything. It was so discouraging at that point. I either decided I would quit—I don't know what I was going to do, but I was going to quit—or I had to figure out how to bring books to market myself. So I decided, yes, I can do this. I can bring books to market myself. So I worked. I worked for five years. I just put my head down and worked. I published books that I liked. I did what no one else would accept, but I thought was good writing. I looked for great illustrators and I found some great illustrators to work with, because children's picture books have pictures. You have to work with an illustrator. So I worked for about five years and finally after five years, I kind of lifted my head and looked around and went, “Wow, look at this. I've got books out that I love. They're winning awards. They're selling, I'm making money. This works.” So for me, one person asked me recently to talk about this in terms of scarcity and abundance. For me, the traditional publishing world is a place of scarcity. Nobody respected my opinion, nobody respected my writing. As we know from Scheherazade, if you do not have a story, you die. So self-publishing is a place of abundance for me. I do what I want. I find stories that excite me, and I put them in the hands of kids. Joanna: So what year was it when you were like, “Oh, I really can't sell, I am going to try indie”? Darcy: Thirteen years ago. I've been doing this 13 years. Joanna: So around 2012, I guess. Darcy: Yes, 2013 I think. Joanna: 2012, 2013. That really was, I think, a real takeoff time in the self-publishing arena when you could actually start doing this. For example, doing print-on-demand through Amazon. These things weren't that easy when you started in traditional publishing—it wasn't easy to do self-publishing. Darcy: No, no, no. When I first started submitting books, self-publishing was not available. I did a book on writing very early and that taught me how to do the self-publishing process. It was not a book anyone was going to publish because it was revising your novel, which is very niche. For people who want to write a novel, that's a fairl

What if the key to finding your authentic voice as a writer lies in exploring someone else's fictional world first? How can multi-passionate creators manage multiple brands without losing their sanity? KimBoo York reveals how fanfiction can be a powerful training ground for original fiction, and why being your “weird self” is more valuable than ever in an age of AI. In the intro, Everything I know about self-publishing [Kevin Kelly; his interview on The Creative Penn]; KU library distribution [Dale Roberts]; Anthropic settlement on piracy [The Verge; Authors Guild; Writer Beware];Selling direct with ElevenReader; I'm talking about Creativity and AI on Brave New Bookshelf; I'm also talking about An Author's Guide to AI on The Novel Marketing Podcast; My final AI webinar of the year, Sun 21 Sept; The Buried and the Drowned short story collection. This podcast is sponsored by Kobo Writing Life, which helps authors self-publish and reach readers in global markets through the Kobo eco-system. You can also subscribe to the Kobo Writing Life podcast for interviews with successful indie authors. This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  KimBoo York is the author of romance, fantasy and nonfiction, as well as a productivity coach and podcaster at The Author Alchemist. Her latest book is Out from Fanfic: Transforming Creative Freedom. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights, and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes What is fanfiction? How to transition from writing fanfiction to original fiction by identifying the aspects you love Managing multiple creative brands under one studio umbrella without losing your mind The legal landscape of fanfiction Why fanfiction has been an innovation hub for story trends How AI and generative search create opportunities for cross-genre writers You can find KimBoo at HouseofYork.info. Transcript of interview with KimBoo York Jo: KimBoo York is the author of romance, fantasy and nonfiction, as well as a productivity coach and podcaster at The Author Alchemist. Her latest book is Out from Fanfic: Transforming Creative Freedom. So welcome back to the show, KimBoo. KimBoo: Hi, Jo. It's great to be back. I love talking with you. Jo: Yes, and we had a good chat last July 2024 when we talked about intuitive discovery writing. So we don't need to go further back than that, but just give us an update. What does your writing life and your business look like at the moment? KimBoo: Well, I think I speak for everybody when I say that 2025 has been a challenging year. So I've had to take on a little bit more freelance work as I've restructured how I'm doing some of my business. You were an inspiration for that. I'm kind of separating out my different brands now instead of trying to be one thing to all people, and that's taking a little bit of work. I've launched a new pen name, which I'm not going to talk about here, but it seems to be doing well off the launchpad. Then, of course, I'm redoing some of my older works, doing the business end. We're doing new covers, doing some new links, doing some new giveaways. So it's been a busy year and I look forward to what's going to be happening in the future for me, especially as I go into 2026. So that's kind of where I'm at right now. Jo: Well that's interesting. Just talk a bit about this separating different brands. Just remind us what are the different personas that you have and the different brands you've split into? I feel like a lot of people think about doing this, and I have done myself. I've got my two author names and I felt that they were very different, so it was important to me, but I know how much work it is. So talk a bit about that process of separating brands. KimBoo: Well, I flopped back and forth, so for a long time I tried to keep everything very separate and that took so much work and energy, as you know. Then I tried to put everything under one banner, and that just became cluttered. It became hard to identify my demographics, it became hard to do advertising. You can always do targeting in advertising, but with the more organic stuff, how do I post on social media? How do I talk about all my work? So I am somebody who is a multiple project starter. I always have multiple things going on. So I have KimBoo York, me, myself, and I, who is the author and the writer, and I do fiction under that name. I have Cooper West, which is one of my older pen names. That's gay male romance, romantic thrillers, paranormal romance. I have The Author Alchemist, which is kind of my podcast and my craft writing and writing coaching brand. I have The Task Mistress, which is my productivity brand. I just published a new book, a collection of essays on holistic productivity under that brand. I have The Skeptic's Inspirational, which is daily inspirational posts blog. That's going to be a book here soon. Patience & Fortitude, which is my grief blog and mourning blog and book, which is the house where I published my memoir “Grieving Futures: Surviving the Death of My Parents.” And I could go on, but you kind of see what I'm getting at there. They're very different things and I realized that what I needed was a studio type of branding. So HouseofYork.info is my studio home. House of York is my studio. It's the thing that produces all of these different brands, and so I do still have that brand. Everything is a House of York production. It sounds a little ostentatious when you put it like that, but for me mentally, it's a great way to keep things separate and yet connected. So they're all me, they're all connected, and I can talk about different ones in different places, but they're also very clearly defined for marketing purposes. So that's what I really wanted out of that whole thing. Jo: Yes, it is really hard. But you don't have different email lists for all of those things though? KimBoo: No, I do not. Right now I just have the House of York email list. I'm moving into segmenting them. So I will have some different email lists going down the line, and certainly my newest pen name, the secret one, is going to have its own separate email list. So eventually, yes, there will be separate email lists, but I'm working on developing a way where I'm not having to do six email lists a week. Cycling is important, right? Planning things out, scheduling. Who would have thought? So I will eventually, and that is the goal, is to have these different segmented lists. I would also be able to do a full blast to everybody if I had something special coming out that I wanted all my lists to know. So again, that's one of the reasons why I went with this studio framework of doing all of my brands and putting everything under one umbrella while keeping them branded separately. Jo: No, I like that. I mean, I often have thought about this, because I have the two main websites—well actually now I have three. The Creative Penn, J.F. Penn, and Books and Travel. And so they're my main websites. Then I have my Shopify stores and then I have YouTube channels. I have often thought, oh my goodness, I should have one landing page where I can send people to. Then I thought, well, who do I send to one landing page, because I actually have different people do different things. I guess this is great to start on actually, because I feel like you are a multi-passionate creator, and so am I. We have long careers and it's like, well, you can't just stay in your lane. You know, I feel like some people say, “Oh no, you should just stay in your lane.” And we are like, well, it's not actually possible. KimBoo: No, no. I'm a seven-lane highway. I can't. Jo: Well, it's interesting though, because it's not a seven-lane highway. It's actually like three A-roads, we call them here, like three major roads and then there's some little back lanes, and then you might have one that's a bit of a cul-de-sac. KimBoo: Sadly far more accurate. Yes. Jo: But I think that's important too. I mean, I was actually looking at your grief one and the death of your parents, and I mean, that's like a whole completely different area that perhaps is almost standalone. Different people may find that book than find your romance or your productivity or whatever, and that's fine. They don't need to find anything else. So I think that's really good too. It's having all these different things. So just to make people listening feel better if you are a multi-passionate creator, so are we. You just have to manage it, right? KimBoo: Figure out what works for you, but you've got to just try different things until you land on the system that works. I think that's the lesson takeaway here. Jo: Yes. Or the way it works right now, and then you change things. In fact, let's get into the book because this is another one of these kind of quite random books to be fair, which is Out from Fanfic. I'm fascinated by this because obviously I've heard of fanfiction, but it's not a sort of world I am in at all. So just start by explaining— What is fanfic? And what are the main sites? KimBoo: Sure. So I'm going to start actually with the Wikipedia definition, which is “fiction typically written in an amateur capacity by fans as a form of fan labor, unauthorized by, but based on an existing work of fiction.” And honestly, that is the basis for a thousand different arguments about what exactly fan fiction is. It became very trendy there for a little while to look back and say Dante's Inferno, that's fan fiction. Bible fan fiction. Right? What is fan fiction? It's one of those, well, you kind of know it when you see it type of things, right? I consider it to be the

How do you know when an idea should become a poem or a short story instead of a longer work? How can indie authors publish and market poetry and short fiction in today's market? Joanna Penn and Orna Ross explore the creative processes, and the business behind writing short-form work, and discuss why being authentically human matters more than ever in our AI-driven world. In the intro, How publishing has changed since 2015 [Jane Friedman]; The Two Authors Podcast; Anthropic settles piracy copyright lawsuit [WIRED; The New Publishing Standard]; AI-Assisted Artisan Author webinars; The Buried and the Drowned out now; Long distance walking and resilience at midlife [Books and Travel] Today's show is sponsored by Draft2Digital, self-publishing with support, where you can get free formatting, free distribution to multiple stores, and a host of other benefits. Just go to www.draft2digital.com to get started. This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Orna Ross is a multi-award-winning historical fiction novelist, poet, non-fiction author, and the founder of the Alliance of Independent Authors. Her latest poetry collection is Night Light As It Rises. J.F. Penn is the Award winning, New York Times and USA Today bestselling author of thrillers, dark fantasy, crime, horror, and travel memoir. Her short story collection, The Buried and the Drowned, is out now. This discussion was originally published on the Self-Publishing with ALLi Podcast in July 2025. How poems “choose” their writers and the difference between emotion-driven poetry and character/place-driven short stories W.B. Yeats' prose outline technique for poetry and why it helps writers actually finish their poems The challenges and rewards of creating print collections through Kickstarter for niche audiences Why submission to magazines isn't the only path—the case for direct publishing and building reader relationships Marketing strategies specific to poetry and short fiction, from video content to reader teams The importance of professional editing and beautiful book design for short-form collections You can find Orna at OrnaRoss.com and Jo at JFPennBooks.com and BooksAndTravel.page. You can find The Buried and the Drowned at: www.JFPenn.com/buried. You can find Night Light As It Rises here. Transcript of the discussion Jo: Today we are going to be talking about what we've both been working on recently. Actually, we've got a lot of craft-related discussion going on today as we talk about writing, publishing and marketing poetry and short fiction. There are writing craft things in today's show and also business aspects. I had this idea about this show because Orna, you shared a poem written about your mom's death on your Go Creative podcast, and I did tear up and I'm sure a lot of people listening would've teared up too, and it must have been really hard to write. So I wanted to ask you —  Why did you decide to write a poem about this really difficult topic, and how do you know when something should be a poem as opposed to something longer? Orna: So poems pick me rather than me deciding. I don't actually, with longer work, I will make a decision. I'm going to do a book on such and such, but poems kind of come along or they don't. And so this one arrived and that's why I decided to do it. In terms of why I decided to share it, which is a relatively new thing for me to do, and certainly new to do on the Go Creative podcast, something I am going to be doing going forward and share the poetry. I'm challenging myself at the moment to kind of go out there more and share those things. Typically I would have just shared that with my poetry patrons. I wouldn't have gone any further with it. So now I'm trying to just be more human in the world of AI as you and I talk about a lot, that whole double down on being human thing. Well, you know, reading a poem that you've written yourself is probably about as human as it gets and that's why I decided to share it. Then in terms of how do you know whether something's a poem or something longer for me, and again, I think it's really personal for each different writer, but for me — Lyrical poems are short and just a single flash of feeling and image coming together for concentrated emotion. If I can sense the whole experience in just one vivid moment kind of thing, that's a poem for me rather than an essay or a story. So there'd be an image and there'd be a feeling, rather than, there may be an idea as well, but the image and the feeling are the main thing. If plots start coming in or characters, memory, side stories, anything like that, then it's a bigger thing, much bigger thing. Usually for me, novels and all. But one scene, one beat. That's poetry. Jo: And you mentioned there about the doubling down of being human. And of course this poem about the death of your mother — You can't get much more human than a poem about the death of your mother. I mean, AI could generate something, but that is a human experience, right? Orna: Yes, 100%. And I believe that this is a personal belief of mine as a writer, is one of my sort of writing credo. That the feeling and emotion and experiences that you're having while you're writing a poem that opens you out, that in some way that is conveyed to the reader who then experiences. Not exactly the same. They're going to bring their own stuff to it, but they're going to have a sense of that humanity in the poem. I do feel that is something that can't be replicated. Very hard to describe, very hard to explain where it, where it comes, where you see it in the text, but I believe it's there. But yeah, short stories are similar. You've been writing short stories recently and —  How do you know when an idea is a short story or a longer story or a novel? Jo: I normally have like a story seed and I guess I have story seeds for novels as well. And I want to explore that. But usually there has to be some kind of twist. So when I was growing up, I mean, I still read them sometimes, Roald Dahl's Tales of the Unexpected, which I loved. And if people have an idea of Roald Dahl, I know in some ways he has been critiqued these days, but pretty dark children's writing as well. But the Tales of the Unexpected are adult short stories. So I like having this sort of surprising or disturbing or unexpected sense about it. I do feel like you can explore different subgenres a lot more than novels. So my novels tend to be action adventure or straight thriller or supernatural thriller. And then with my short stories, I get into all kinds of different things. So I've got some techno thrillers. I do a lot of archaeology. I like to research a lot, but my short stories do have these sort of themes and archaeology is certainly one of them. So I think if I don't want to turn it into something bigger, I definitely think every short story could be turned into some kind of novel. But I don't necessarily want to do that. I just finished a short story, it's called Between Two Breaths, and it stems from an experience I had scuba diving in the Poor Knights Islands in New Zealand almost 25 years ago, and I haven't actually written about it. Funnily enough, I had written a poem back then I found, it's dated 2005, so I guess that's 20 years ago. And I'm actually going to put that in the edition in my collection to go with that short story. But it's an experience I had that I wanted to encapsulate in something short that leaves the reader with questions. And actually, as we're talking, I'm wondering if that's the difference because with my novels, as a reader, I hate a cliffhanger at the end of a novel. I want things to be wrapped up. And thrillers are, even if they're in a series, are usually completely wrapped up. So they are, they're not like fantasy where you might have seven books and there's cliffhangers on every one. My short stories leave you with a question and I find that that's really important. A bit like the Roald Dahl stories, you can still be thinking about them later because they haven't necessarily ended. So yeah, I guess that's the difference. And it's interesting because you said that the poem stems from emotion, whereas I feel like the short story, it does start with either a character or a place. So, for example, I went, when I went up to Ely Cathedral, it sort of sparked this idea about the area being drowned and this place called Seahenge, which kind of emerged from the waters, this prehistoric wooden circle. And I was like, I have to write a story about that. So that, I think that's kind of the difference, the emotion versus a place or a character. I don't know. What do you think? Orna: Yeah, I think that speaks to me though. Of course you can have character and place in poetry. You have to have it in story in narrative forms, but in poetry you can have narrative elements as well. Poetry can be everything, and I think it very much depends on what kind of poet you are. Just as you know what you said there about your novels are wrapped up and your short stories can be, have a much more open ending for another writer, might be the other way around. And it's very much, I often feel — The forms that we write in, they choose us. And we've discussed this before in terms of the fact that writing across genre and across the big macro genre of fiction and nonfiction. And then I do poetry as well. I mean, you wouldn't choose that if you were just operating from choice, would you? And in similar ways, I think the forms that we use, they kind of choose us a bit, don't they? Jo: Yeah. And also for me, the short story, I'm a discovery writer. As I've talked about before, I don't necessarily know what the twist is going to be or what ending I will

What if you could turn a monthly writing challenge into a successful book collaboration—all while recording the entire creative process as a podcast? What if hand-selling locally sells more books than online marketing? Clay Vermulm talks about his creative and business processes. In the intro, Spotify’s new ‘Follow Along’ Feature for some audiobooks [Publishing Perspectives]; and thoughts on special edition vinyl or tapes for audio, like Harper Collins special edition example; AI-Assisted Artisan Author webinars; Hindenburg Narrator for audiobook mastering; Canterbury Cathedral; CreativePennBooks.com new theme; The Buried and the Drowned. This episode is sponsored by Publisher Rocket, which will help you get your book in front of more Amazon readers so you can spend less time marketing and more time writing. I use Publisher Rocket for researching book titles, categories, and keywords — for new books and for updating my backlist. Check it out at www.PublisherRocket.com This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Clay Vermulm is a horror novelist and short story author, co-author of Rain Shadows: Dark Tales from Washington State along with Tamara Kaye Sellman, and a podcaster at Fermented Fiction and Beneath the Rain Shadow. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes How a chance meeting at a sci-fi critique group led to a successful horror writing collaboration The unique podcast-to-book model: using monthly prompts and live critiques to create Rain Shadows How they've sold more books by hand than online—plus specific tactics for face-to-face selling Essential tips for being a better critique partner without destroying someone's confidence The business side of co-authoring: 50/50 splits, paying contributors, and why royalty tracking is a nightmare You can find Clay at RainShadowStories.com and on Substack. Transcript of Interview with Clay Vermulm Jo: Clay Vermulm is a horror novelist and short story author, co-author of Rain Shadows: Dark Tales from Washington State along with Tamara Kaye Sellman, and a podcaster at Fermented Fiction and Beneath the Rain Shadow. So welcome to the show, Clay. Clay: Hey, thank you so much for having me. I'm very excited to be on here. Jo: Lots for us to talk about. So first up— Tll us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and publishing. Clay: Like a lot of people, I've been writing since I was a little kid with crayons and everything like that, so I think a lot of writers out there can relate to that story. More specifically, I went to college for English and history. Like a lot of people, I think I was told through a good portion of my life this sort of narrative—and I think it's ironic, right? We tell people, “Oh, follow your dreams.” If people do something creative when they're a kid or when they're younger, we encourage that. We parade that, we champion that. Then as soon as you turn 18, we're like, “Okay, time to make money now. Do something that's a real job.” I always resented that, and once I got to college, I had a really good English professor who taught a class on actual publishing. His whole class was about how to submit a short story and how to go out there and try to get your work published. Your final for the class was just to actually show him that you had submitted a short story to a professional market and written one, because we wrote and critiqued them throughout class. I grew up in rural Montana, so I hadn't had a lot of opportunities to do critique groups or writing groups or theater or any of that until I went to college. Once I did and saw some of the avenues you could take to really pursue a life in creativity, I was totally hooked. That's where it officially began for me. Honestly, I owe it largely to theater. I got into theater and I went to college on a wrestling scholarship. I ended up dropping out of that and going into the community theater, doing some shows, learning to write stage plays and standup comedy and music. I tried writing everything and eventually landed on books because, as you know Joanna, you can carve out your own path in indie publishing in books, and you don't have to rely on like a million other people like you do in a play or a film. That's why I've focused on writing novels and short stories in recent years, just to get some of my stories finished and get them out there. Jo: So did you ever get a “real job” as college people like to call it, or— Have you managed a creative portfolio career, as we call it now? Clay: I'm finally getting to where that is my full-time job. For about the last three years, I've been a full-time writer—freelance stuff, magazines, editing gigs, kind of patching all that together with what I publish and put out there and a bunch of other groups I work with. So I'm there now, but it's only been about the last three years. Up until then I've worked lots of side jobs, kitchen jobs, a teaching job, and all kinds of stuff like that. I freelanced in the film industry here in Seattle for a solid five, six years as well. When I was doing that, I was just taking whatever new job would come my way. So I did a lot of production assistant stuff and grip and electric stuff. Jo: I think this is so important because I feel like a lot of people do think, “Oh well, it's just the one book.” Maybe they do a degree like yours in English and then they think, “Okay, I just need to write one book and that's it.” But what you're talking about—this sort of patchwork of all these different creative things, plus bits and bobs of jobs—is really the reality, isn't it? I certainly don't know anyone who just writes one book and then that's it, they're done. Clay: Yes, that is certainly an illusion, and a loosely held one at that. These days, I don't know anyone who's tried selling a book who still believes that. Jo: But perhaps if you haven't yet finished that first book, you can still believe that. It's great that your professor encouraged you all to submit because I guess you also started getting rejections pretty early, right? Are most of your works short stories? Because I saw from your website you do a lot of short stories. Clay: That's kind of become my favorite medium, my favorite form. I like editing too, because I really like to bring other artists, other authors together on projects. I love to showcase things that are really beautiful and strong works of fiction, especially in the short market, because there's just sort of a thing that happens with short stories. I think that a lot of writers read short stories. They are harder to get out to your actual larger reader base. Luckily in horror, I think there's been quite a movement towards reading short fiction, but even still, people primarily like to read novels or longer work for the larger reader base, it seems. I love taking every opportunity I can to collaborate with people and to bring awesome artists together on projects and to get these stories that—even if they've been printed somewhere else before—to get them back out there. When I find them and I'm like, “This story's awesome,” I see if I can get a reprint and make an anthology with it, just doing those kinds of projects. It's always been really rewarding to me. I think I like writing short stories because it also allows me to explore that editing side of the work as well. Jo: I like writing shorts as well (my new collection is The Buried and the Drowned.) It's funny you said writers read short stories, and I was just trying to question that in my mind, like, is that true? I think you are definitely right because many of us want to write them so we read them. I definitely remember reading the Roald Dahl Tales of the Unexpected back in the eighties, and those still shaped me. Then I was thinking about the ones that I buy now and they are pretty much all horror, which is really interesting that you said that. So people listening, definitely short stories. Let's talk about one of your collaborations then. You have this unusual origin story for the new collection called Rain Shadows. Talk about how Rain Shadows started, and the prompts, and the podcast, and why the hell you did it this way. Clay: It all ties together nicely. This story came out of a critique group where I met Tamara for the first time. I found this critique group randomly on Meetup, and it's actually a fantasy sci-fi critique group. It's still going in North Seattle right now. It's a great group of people. If you happen to be a writer of sci-fi and fantasy, they're on Meetup as North Seattle Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers. I met Tamara there and I was the only horror writer, which happens a lot in critique groups as well. You show up being the only horror writer is a common enough thing. Tamara came in with also some pretty dark stories that she was workshopping. It was like a bunch of dream sequences from her novel that she was working on. As soon as I read her stuff, I was like, “This person is the person out of this group that I want to really work with. I hope she likes my stories because her writing's awesome.” We had a good chemistry. We have a similar kind of style. I wouldn't say writing style, but we have a similar flavor of the kind of story we like to tell. We both liked the slow burn, the more psychological angle on horror, and it was just a good match. From that moment on, I knew I wanted to work with Tamara at some time, in some way. I was thinking of the story I sort of told you earlier about how a lot of writers need that person. For a lot of people, that might be you, Joanna,

What happens when you fall in love with a book that deserves a wider audience but has never been translated into English? How do you navigate international copyright law, multiple publishers, and estate permissions when you have no translation experience? Dani James shares her journey from discovering a powerful Flemish memoir in her childhood home to becoming its first English translator, a labor of love that took years to complete. In the intro, How to start dictating fiction [Helping Writers Become Authors]; Payment splitting with co-writers and collaborators [Draft2Digital]; Rise in spam and scam emails [Writer Beware]; The Thinking Game Documentary; My AI-Assisted Artisan Author webinars; The Buried and the Drowned, A Short Story Collection; Writing Partition with Merryn Glover [Books and Travel]. Write and format stunning books with Atticus. Create professional print books and eBooks easily with the all-in-one book writing software. Try it out at Atticus.io This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Dani James is a writer and literary translator who recently translated Return to the Place I Never Left, a Holocaust survivor memoir by Tobias Schiff. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Growing up in Belgium's Jewish community and discovering Tobias Schiff's Holocaust memoir Navigating international rights and copyright law. The complex legal process of securing translation rights across borders. The creative challenges of literary translation. Balancing faithfulness to the original with making the English version the best it could be. The challenges of publishing Marketing a translated memoir. The realities of promoting a niche book as a first-time author. Lessons learned and what's next for both translation and original writing You can find Dani at DaniJames.co. Transcript of Interview with Dani James Jo: Dani James is a writer and literary translator who recently translated Return to the Place I Never Left, a Holocaust survivor memoir by Tobias Schiff. Welcome to the show, Dani. Dani: Thank you for having me. Jo: It's great to have you on the show. First up, just— Tell us a bit more about you and your background and how and why you got into translation. Dani: I'm a writer based in New York City, but I grew up in Antwerp, Belgium. Even though I'd been writing creative nonfiction and fiction for years, Return to the Place I Never Left was my first foray into translation. It was really driven by an interest in translating this book that I personally adored and kept rereading over the years. Thankfully, I speak several languages and I grew up going to school and learning Flemish and Dutch, and being educated in that language. I had no previous translation background, but just because I enjoyed this book so much and felt it was deserving of a wider audience, it inspired me to try my hand at it. That's ultimately what drew me to translation. I found a lot of joy in it, and I've actually learned a lot about how translation, in my opinion, can really enhance a creative practice in ways that I wouldn't have expected before I took this on. Jo: It's fascinating because your accent is American to my ear, but I've worked in Belgium and people might not know much about Antwerp. How did you get from Belgium to New York City? Tell us a bit more about your traveling childhood and upbringing. Dani: My parents actually met in New York City. That's also where I was born. They met in Washington Square Park in the eighties, I feel like that gives you a little bit of a lay of the land if you've ever been there. My mother was visiting, my father's Jamaican and he had been living in the US since he was a teenager. My mother was visiting and they met and fell in love, ended up getting married and having me. So I was actually born in New York City, but then when I was still a baby, we moved to Belgium. I did kindergarten all throughout high school in Belgium. In the summertime though, I would come to New York City because the biggest part of my family is my dad's side of the family and they lived in New York. So I spent my summers—the whole summer and sometimes even the winter break—in New York City, and the rest of the time in Belgium. I've been back in New York now for about 15 years. Now I do the opposite, I visit Belgium every summer. My mother still lives in Belgium and I have a lot of childhood friends there. That's how that came about, and why I definitely have the New York City accent. Jo: Let's get into this book then. Return to the Place I Never Left has great personal meaning to you and your family. Tell us about that. What are the connections there? It seems so strange to hear your accent and then to think of the connections you have there. Dani: There are so many connections actually. First, my grandparents were Holocaust survivors. When you think of the Jewish community in Belgium at the time where I grew up, they were all survivors or descendants of survivors. In the case of my grandparents, they survived the war by hiding. My mom's side of the family is Jewish, so I am Jewish. The majority of both of my grandparents' families did not survive being deported to Auschwitz. The story of the Holocaust is one that is part of my family's history and therefore also my history. I really grew up with this knowledge and knowing these stories. They're very common in my family because they've directly affected my relatives and my family members. Growing up, when I used to go to synagogue—I'm not as religious, but I am of course culturally Jewish—for the high holidays, I did used to go to the synagogue to celebrate them. Fun fact: typically there would be two Black people in the synagogue when I grew up in Belgium at the time, and it was me and another girl who actually is Tobias Schiff's granddaughter. Me and this other girl, our mothers knew each other. Of course, it's a small community. We knew each other and I believe that this is how the book entered my home. I believe the daughter of Tobias Schiff, the mother of this childhood friend, ended up bringing a copy of the book when it first came out. I don't really remember how I first was introduced to it, but I do know that like all people who grow up with big bookshelves at home, and when you're a reader, I would just pick up books from the bookshelf and at some point I came across Return to the Place I Never Left. The original title is Terug naar de plaats die ik nooit heb verlaten. When I read this book the first time, it really stood out to me because I had known about the Holocaust, had heard all of these stories. Every family of survivors has these crazy stories that you know of and that you learn growing up, and I'd read several books. What stood out about Tobias Schiff's book was the style in which it was written. It's written in verse and it looks like poetry on the page. It's very direct language because it comes from an oral project initially where he was interviewed for a documentary, and it makes reading it very accessible because the language is very direct. He's speaking to you as a friend, or sometimes it sounds as if he's speaking to himself as well. It allows you to be a witness to his innermost thoughts, or it allows you to hear him speak to you as if he was a friend. The style of the book really drew me in and I ended up rereading it several times over the years. I have really bad movie and book memory where I will forget entire plots. That works really well for me because it allows me to reread my favorites over and over again. Some of my favorite books and movies, I'll reread them or rewatch them four or five times. That's one of the things I did with Return to the Place I Never Left. I've reread it several times over the years. At some point I thought I feel like more people would appreciate this story. It gives people good insight into the experience of someone during the Holocaust and what that was like and surviving these death camps, and afterwards grappling and navigating with these really traumatic experiences and how that impacted him in his life. Outside of those really intriguing parts of the book, it's also set in Antwerp partially. If you've traveled around the world, very few people know Belgium. A lot of people know the UK, the Netherlands, Germany, France, all the countries around it, but not a lot of people know about Belgium, and definitely not about Antwerp. I also like the fact that in a way it shows some details about the city of Antwerp in a very unfortunate setting, but Antwerp is where I also grew up in Belgium. For all these reasons, Return to the Place I Never Left is an incredibly powerful book in itself, but it also tells such an important story of important places and important experiences that are meaningful to me and many people around the world. I think even if you don't have a personal connection to this, you could gain a lot and learn a lot just from reading this book. Jo: The original was in Flemish, is that right? Dani: Yes. There's actually quite a journey even to getting to this book. Originally Tobias Schiff was interviewed for a documentary, and the documentary was titled Récits d'Ellis Island. It was in French. It was a documentary about Holocaust survivors and their experience, and I believe it was filmed in the late eighties and perhaps came out in 1989. It was filmed by a French filmmaker named Claude Lelouch. He interviewed Schiff for hours and learned about his experience. Afterwards, the slot that the TV station had allocated—it was going to be aired on TV—was only 26 minutes long. The filmm

What marketing principles remain true regardless of the tools you use? What are the different ways you can market your book, whatever your genre? In this episode, I share two chapters from my audiobook, Successful Self-Publishing, Fourth Edition. In the intro, Pricing strategies on The Biz Book Broadcast; What to do Three Years Before your book launch [Dan Blank]; ChatGPT GPT5; Gemini Storybook, ElevenLabs Music. Plus, AI-Assisted Artisan Author webinars in September; Gothic Cathedrals; British Pilgrimage [Books and Travel]; The Buried and the Drowned – J.F. Penn. Today's show is sponsored by ProWritingAid, writing and editing software that goes way beyond just grammar and typo checking. With its detailed reports on how to improve your writing and integration with writing software, ProWritingAid will help you improve your book before you send it to an editor, agent or publisher. Check it out for free or get 15% off the premium edition at www.ProWritingAid.com/joanna This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  J.F. Penn is an award-winning, New York Times and USA Today bestselling author of thrillers, crime, horror, dark fantasy, short stories and travel memoir, as well as writing non-fiction for authors as Joanna Penn. She's also an award-winning podcaster and creative entrepreneur. Marketing principles 15 ways to market your book These chapters are excerpted from Successful Self-Publishing, Fourth Edition by Joanna Penn, available in ebook, audiobook, and print formats. Marketing Principles If you ask most authors about book marketing, they’re likely to grimace, shake their head, and sigh… We became authors because we love to write, but if you want your books to sell — regardless of how you choose to publish — at some point you’ll need to embrace marketing as part of your author journey. In this chapter, I’ll go through marketing principles that will be useful no matter how the industry changes. But first, let’s cover the question everyone always asks.  Do I have to do my own marketing? Can’t I just outsource it all? There are many people and services you can hire for aspects of book marketing, but consider these questions: What specific area of marketing do you want to outsource? Is it worth doing at all?  Is it worth paying for? What return on investment (ROI) are you expecting?  Is this service short-term or long-term and how might that affect your budget?  Book marketing is not one thing, so you need to first consider what exactly you want to outsource. For example, setting up and running Amazon Ads is a different skill to pitching magazines and podcasts for interviews.  You also have to consider whether you even want to start something you might not sustain.  Is it worth starting a TikTok channel if you hate making videos?  Is it worth starting your own podcast when it might be a year or so before your listenership grows to a decent size?  Is it worth paying a PR professional to get you interviews in magazines when you’re just starting out, you’re unsure of your brand, and there is no obvious return on investment? Do you want to keep paying people for months and years? Or could you spend some of that money learning new skills and building your own sustainable marketing strategy?  If you want to hire a professional, be specific about the tasks and your budget, as well as timeframe. For example, ‘Run Meta Ads for three months to the first book in my fantasy series’ or ‘Pitch media outlets for three months around my non-fiction self-help book on dealing with anxiety.’ If you want help with book marketing, you can hire vetted professionals from the Reedsy Marketplace and find people on the Alliance of Independent Authors Partner Member list. While I have hired specific people over the years for short-term marketing campaigns, I primarily do my own marketing. Here are some principles that will help you if you choose to do the same. (1) Reframe marketing as creative sharing Many authors feel that marketing and sales are negative in some way, but that attitude makes the whole thing more difficult. Whether you have a traditional book deal or you self-publish, you have to learn to market if you want to sell books. So, it’s time to reframe what marketing is! Marketing is sharing what you love with people who will appreciate hearing about it. Marketing is not shouting ‘buy my book’ every day on social media or accosting readers in bookstores or at author events. You should never be pushing anything to those who are not interested. Instead, try to attract people who will love what you do once they know about it. We’re readers too and we all love to find new books to immerse ourselves in, so think about other readers in the same way. If you’ve written a great story in a genre that you love, why would you ever be embarrassed about promoting it ethically to fans of that genre? If you’ve written a book on gluten-free weight loss, it’s likely that you’ve achieved success with your method. You’re trying to help people, so why wouldn’t you want to spread the word? Once you change your attitude, the whole marketing landscape shifts. It becomes far more positive when you’re sharing things you love and attracting like-minded people. If you start enjoying marketing and make it a sustainable part of your creative life, you’ll find it works a whole lot better — and might even be fun! (2) Focus on the reader Writing is about you. Publishing is about the book. Marketing is about the reader. When we write, we are in our own heads. We’re thinking about ourselves. But when we publish and market, we have to switch our heads around to the other side of the equation and consider the person who reads or listens to the book and what they want out of the experience. Step outside your own head and ask these questions: Who is my ideal reader? What emotion or outcome do they crave? What problem am I solving, or what entertainment experience am I providing? The answers will help you with the words and images you use in marketing to attract the right readers. (3) Own your platform When you write a book, you need to have somewhere to direct people so they can find out information about you and what you write. There are many options for building your home on the internet, but an important consideration is who owns the site you build on. If you use a free site, it’s owned by someone else, whereas if you pay for hosting, you control it. You can back it up and make sure it’s always available. This matters because things change over time. Some authors let their publisher build a website for them, but what if you begin working with a different publisher? Some authors just use a Facebook page, but what about when Facebook changes the rules (as they have done several times over the years)? Some authors use a free website service, but if that company disappears or gets bought or decides your book isn’t appropriate, what happens to your site? If you’re serious about writing and selling books for the long-term, then consider owning your website. You can do all kinds of other things to market your book, but at least you’ll always have somewhere to send people. Equally, it’s important to build your own email list of readers who like your books, because again, who knows what will happen in the future with the book retailers or the publishers you use? If you have an email list of readers, you can always sell books whatever changes come along. You can find the services I use and more tips at: www.TheCreativePenn.com/website-email-help  (4) Build a cohesive author brand Branding is your promise to the reader. It’s the words, images, and emotions that surround your work and the way readers think of you. Many authors consider using a pseudonym, or different names if they write books aimed at separate audiences. I write under J.F. Penn for my fiction and memoir and Joanna Penn for my non-fiction for authors. I have different types of books with almost completely different audiences, so I need separate brands. Book cover design also expresses brand and differs by genre. You should have some idea of the books and authors that are similar to yours.  Examine their book covers and the color palette they use, as well as their author websites.  What words, images, and colors do they use?  What emotional resonance does their brand present?  How does it make you feel as a reader?  Now try to apply those principles to your own author brand. If you’re struggling with brand, don’t worry. It will emerge and become clearer over time as you find your voice and attract an audience over multiple books.  When I started out, I published everything under Joanna Penn, and eventually split my author brand to make things clearer for readers, as well as myself. But it took five books and several years before I understood that was the right decision for me.  (5) Find marketing that fits your personality. Double down on being human. If you want a sustainable career as an author, you need to consider what kinds of marketing you can consistently do over time. You can’t fake it or force yourself to do things you hate. Marketing needs to fit with your personality and your lifestyle, and that will differ for everyone.  You also need to be personal and, in an age of AI, double down on being human. The more you share authentically, the more people will get to know, like, and trust you, and the more likely they are to want to buy your books.  Of course, you have to draw your personal line in the sand. I don’t share pictures of my family on social media, and some aut

Are you curious about the lives of your ancestors? What secrets might be hiding in your family tree, and where would you even begin to look for them? How do you turn dusty records and vague family stories into a compelling book for others to read? T.L. Whalan shares how she researched and wrote a book about her family history. In the intro, InAudio.com and Spotify for Authors; The Written Word Podcast from Written Word Media; How to sell 1000 books a month [Author Media]; Vetted services from Alliance of Independent Authors, and Reedsy; Writer Beware for scams. Plus, Ideogram for consistent Characters; Google Notebook LM video overviews; Gothic Cathedrals; The Buried and the Drowned – J.F. Penn. Today's show is sponsored by Draft2Digital, self-publishing with support, where you can get free formatting, free distribution to multiple stores, and a host of other benefits. Just go to www.draft2digital.com to get started. This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  T.L. Whalan is the Australian author of short stories, young adult, and middle-grade fiction, as well as co-author of the family history project, The Wirrabara Whalans. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes What genealogy is and the motivations for researching your family history Why you should always start your research by interviewing living relatives Key resources for research, including official records, newspaper archives, and genealogy websites The importance of getting family consent and how to handle sensitive information The practical challenges of compiling vast amounts of research and formatting a book You can find Tegan at TLWhalan.com.au. Transcript of Interview with T.L. Whalan Joanna: T.L. Whalan is the Australian author of short stories, young adult, and middle-grade fiction, as well as co-author of the family history project, The Wirrabara Whalans. Welcome to the show, Tegan. Tegan: Thank you so much for having me. Joanna: First up— Tell us a bit more about you, how you got into writing, and also tell us about where you live. Tegan: Sure thing. It's pretty obvious from my accent that I'm Australian. I live in a town called Hamley Bridge, which has only 700 people. It's a country town north of Adelaide in South Australia. My husband and I chose this country life because of our animals. We have dogs ourselves, but we also run a dog rescue. Last year we started bottle-raising orphaned lambs, and now we run a dog and lamb rescue. Over the last 15 years, we've re-homed about 400 animals. In terms of my writing, I was one of those people who always said, “I'm going to write a novel one day,” but never really got around to it. Then, in mid-2014, I decided to get serious. I Googled how to write a novel and discovered NaNoWriMo (National Novel Writing Month). I thought, “Well, that's good because I can wait until November.” So I did exactly that. I waited until November for NaNoWriMo, wrote a novel that year, and I've been writing compulsively ever since. Joanna: Just on those bottle-fed orphan lambs. They turn into sheep, right? Do you just have loads of sheep? Tegan: We've got 10 of our own sheep, which are wonderful pets. They're just like dogs; they run up to the fence and want pets and treats. The lambs that we're raising this year, we are finding good homes for, for them to live out their lives as lawnmowers and lovely pets themselves. My husband's been very happy since we got the sheep. He hasn't had to mow the lawn, so it's been a good addition. Joanna: Let's get into this family history project. What is genealogy and why are people so fascinated with it? Tegan: There are lots of people who are quite into genealogy or their family history, and it's basically the study of lineage. Often people choose to start with themselves and then work their way back, figuring out who their ancestors are. I think people are fascinated because we're all a little bit self-centered and want to know more about ourselves. When I'm researching my family tree and find a particularly exciting ancestor, I actually do the math and work out how much of their DNA is in me. It's nice to know that person makes up part of me. So there's that aspect of learning about yourself that I think is really motivating. Another part of it is the thrill of the hunt; wanting to knuckle down and find information about these ancestors. Sometimes when you find a really nice tidbit, you get to the point that you go, “I think I might be the only person alive who knows this about this person.” It's a pretty cool feeling to think that you're at that brink of your research. I've also done family trees for people in my fiction writing. When I've written historical fiction based on true historical figures, I have been known to make a family tree for that person because I want to make sure that I get it right in terms of their siblings, their parents, their aunties, their uncles, the years of their birth, and how old they would be. Joanna: You mentioned the research and the thrill of the hunt, but how do you research family history? What are some of the resources people might use? Tegan: There are lots of resources, but I think sometimes people start in the wrong place. I'm a big advocate of starting with people who are alive now and interviewing them to get those stories. When that person passes, that story could potentially be gone as well. While I agree it's exciting to get as far back on your family tree as possible, if we can start with living people and the resource that they provide, that's a really excellent starting point. Once we have all the information we can from living people, we can start to look at other resources. As an Australian, a lot of our ship records are really important. For me, it's free settlers, but for plenty of people in Australia, there are convict records. We have Births, Deaths and Marriages registries in Australia, which are a valuable resource, though there's a different one in every state, which makes it a little bit complicated. In Australia, we have a newspaper website called Trove; I think the US equivalent is newspapers.com. Newspapers have a phenomenal amount of information, like birth and death records, engagement notices, marriages, and sometimes even whole stories about a wedding, which will tell you who the wedding party was and what the bride wore. We have also had to use Freedom of Information (FOI) to get information about some of our relatives. On my father's side, my great-grandfather was charged with being destitute as an 8-year-old boy and was then in what was fundamentally an orphanage. We were able to seek freedom of information from the Department of Child Protection to get information about him. We're about to do something similar for one of my relatives who was institutionalized in a mental asylum. So those FOI records can be a valuable resource. It's a little difficult to give really specific ideas on resources because they are often quite country-specific or even state-specific. For people who are interested, their state-based genealogical center is a good place to start for area-specific resources. Joanna: Then there are bigger websites too, aren't there? Like Ancestry.com, these more global websites that you have to pay for? Tegan: Exactly, and they can be a really good resource. They make it their business to collate a lot of records, so you can sometimes search many records quite quickly. They are useful, but part of the problem with them is that many are user-based, so some of the information is what other users have submitted. Sometimes that's useful, but sometimes that information is inaccurate. There's also the possibility of those inaccuracies spreading through many people's records on those sites. So Ancestry and other sites are a really good starting point, and we certainly used it a lot to generate hints, but like all resources, you also need to corroborate them and try to access that original source if possible. Joanna: Being Australian, did you go further back than Australia? Did you end up looking at Britain or anywhere else? Tegan: Yes, we certainly did. Our ancestors are mostly Irish, and that's who we pursue in this book. We got to the point that we hired a researcher in Ireland for some of our dead ends because if you are in a different country, you are more savvy about the genealogical systems in place. Knowing locations and their proximity to one another can be really time-consuming. If I were doing that research from here, I would have to have a map app open all the time. Plus, as you mentioned, some sites require payment to access resources, which can be a hurdle in other countries. We did get an Irish researcher who was fantastic; she managed to get us one generation further back, which was very valuable. There was another one we sent her that she wasn't able to get any further on, which made us feel very satisfied that we were able to get as far as we did. Joanna: You mentioned freedom of information. If people don't know what that is, can you tell us more about it? Tegan: With different records, there are different processes in place. With a lot of the ones we've found in Australia, you have to be a very close relation to campaign for those records. In the case I mentioned with the Department of Child Protection, my father was a direct descendant of that man, which is why he was able to apply for those records. There are different thresholds these organizations require you to meet for them to release that information. It's certainly worth investigating, and it will be very nuanced dependi

How do you turn a big-budget TV show idea into an audio drama you can produce yourself? What does it take to create a 10-hour, 30-actor historical drama? And how can guerrilla marketing in airport bookstores help find your audience? Alison Haselden shares her experience of writing and directing Wicked Dames. In the intro, David Whyte on deeper writing [How I Write]; Midlife and the Great Unknown – David Whyte; How can I do my creative work when I’m so worried about the world? [Orna Ross]; Successful Self-Publishing Fourth Edition ebook on special; The Simple Path to Wealth 2025 Edition by JL Collins; Reshuffle: Who Wins When AI Restacks the Knowledge Economy by Sangeet Paul Choudary; The Buried and the Drowned Short Story Collection; Touching History: The Ancient Craft Of Stonemasonry [Books And Travel]. This podcast is sponsored by Kobo Writing Life, which helps authors self-publish and reach readers in global markets through the Kobo eco-system. You can also subscribe to the Kobo Writing Life podcast for interviews with successful indie authors. This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Alison Haselden is an author, screenwriter, and actor. Her latest project is the historical fiction audio drama, Wicked Dames. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes From child actor to a “portfolio career” as an author, screenwriter, and actor Choosing an audio drama format to create an immersive experience How to produce an audio drama series on a budget Marketing vs monetization—project visibility as the goal Utilizing guerrilla marketing tactics to find new listeners Who are the Wicked Dames? You can find Alison at AlisonHaselden.com. Transcript of Interview with Alison Haselden Joanna: Alison Haselden is an author, screenwriter, and actor. Her latest project is the historical fiction audio drama, Wicked Dames. Welcome to the show, Alison. Alison: Thank you so much for having me, Jo. Joanna: I'm excited to talk to you today. First off— Tell us a bit more about you and your creative background. Alison: I have been in the creative world since the day I was born. I'm so grateful to have had a very supportive family who realized they had no choice; I was going to be singing, dancing, acting, and putting on plays in the neighborhood whether they wanted me to or not. I grew up in Orlando, Florida, which has always had a bit of a pipeline to Los Angeles. In the nineties, we had all the boy bands and the Musketeers, so there was a lot of opportunity there. I started working in professional acting at age six and was fortunate to be able to work and train throughout my childhood in Orlando, and I was able to go to Los Angeles a bit as well. I was also an avid reader and writer my entire life. I just love stories in every medium I could get my hands on, which has continued into my adult life. I went to university for journalism and marketing, which really honed my writing skills. Coming out of university, I worked in content marketing for seven years. That helped me get my reps in for building writing stamina, as well as learning marketing skills that now help me so much in my acting and writing careers. It's been a beautiful journey. I'm at a place this year where I can look back and see that — In the years I thought I was treading water, I was actually building useful skills — that I'm so grateful for now, even though they felt like detours at the time. Now, I've quit the corporate world and I work for myself, marketing consulting for creative executives keeps the lights on while I pursue my acting and writing careers. I act primarily in film and TV now. I just wrapped on my first series regular role in a limited series that should hopefully be coming out at the end of this year or in 2026. We released Wicked Dames in the fall of 2024, and I just finished writing my YA Fantasy. So, we've got a lot of projects going on. Joanna: I love that. I love how you outlined that you also did jobs that maybe felt like you were treading water, but you were building on the side. I think some people think that you just go from child actor to TV shows to multimillionaire. Alison: That is a common misconception. Most of us are what I call “middle-class actors.” Joanna: Like mid-list authors. Alison: Exactly. It's the same thing. Most folks that I work with, we all have something else going on on the side because this career is so inconsistent, and it's the same with writing. We all have to have multiple irons in the fire these days. Joanna: On that, because you are juggling freelance work as well, with all these different projects and interests— How do you manage your time with a portfolio career? Alison: I used to be a “white-knuckle-it” kind of person and would hyper-schedule myself to try and pack every minute of every day with a box to check off. In the past two years, I have shifted away from that, and it's weirdly worked out better than I could have ever imagined. There's some kind of divine intervention there, I think. Somehow, I rarely have competing deadlines and I follow my intuition in terms of what my priorities should be. If I have a deadline on something, of course, that gets put to the top of the pile, but I've been so fortunate that it's just worked out. For example, this past year I was focusing solely on Wicked Dames from about April 2024 through the beginning of November 2024. Then I took a little break and an idea came to me, and I put my head down and wrote this whole YA fantasy I'm working on about witches in Nantucket. Right when I finished that and needed a little break, this TV show opportunity came along. I couldn't really write while I was on set—it’s pretty demanding of your brain space—but it worked out because I needed to have time away before coming back for edits. The less I try to control things, the more it weirdly works out in a way that is supportive of my creative process. There are so many different sides of our brain. I can't just be creatively brainstorming 24/7; I need to switch to the other side of my brain and do more logistical things. For the way my energy works, being able to switch hats helps me recharge in the process, so I'm not over-functioning in one way for too long. Then I'm actually excited to go back and check in on another project. Joanna: It sounds like you never do the same thing back-to-back; you're switching all the time. Alison: Yes, and that part has been pure chance. I don't know how that's worked out so far, and maybe it won't be that way forever, but I really have been lucky enough to have quite a bit of variety that cycles through the year. Joanna: Let's get into Wicked Dames. You mentioned the YA fantasy, but Wicked Dames is a historical story. Why write Wicked Dames? And why make it an audio drama instead of a book? Alison: One of the unique things about my background is that I don't sit down and say, “Okay, I want to write a film script,” or, “Okay, I want to write a novel.” My ideas download into my brain, and I know immediately what format I want to lead with. I do write almost everything in multiple forms of IP. I'm working on two different books right now, and I'll probably write a pilot episode or a spec sheet for each of those, but both came to me as a novel first. Wicked Dames, however, came to me and I saw it as a TV show. I saw the visuals of it so clearly; it just felt like a TV show. I have written the book version of Wicked Dames, but my intuition really wanted me to get it out there in as close to a TV format as possible. Anyone who knows about film and TV knows that historical fiction is very expensive to make. So, rather than try to scrounge together an opportunity to make it as a pilot episode, I wanted to get the IP out there as soon as possible, but I wanted it to feel very experiential. I wanted the audience to feel like they were really in that world, and an audio drama was the perfect solution. Unlike an audiobook, which is typically one voice reading the book verbatim, an audio drama is essentially a TV show without the visuals. You get a more immersive experience with all the different actors playing the characters, plus music and sound effects. It seemed like the right medium to get the story out into the world, and I'm so glad I did it that way. I write a lot of historical fiction, fantasy, and some contemporary rom-com. Those might sound very different, but to me, they all have an element of magic to them, which is the throughline. I've always loved historical fiction; it's so magical. It's an escape, but also so grounding because we know that parts of it are real. It just all flowed in that way. Joanna: In terms of writing one, people might be able to picture a TV script with camera directions and dialogue. How do you format an audio drama script and add in things like sound effects? Alison: Many people want to have strict rules, but really, there are no rules. I think there are even fewer rules for an audio drama script. I write it like a cross between a novel and a TV script. The formatting on the page is structured like a TV script, so it doesn't read like a novel with paragraphs of text. We have the character breakdowns, the action, and the header that outlines the setting. I do add a lot more to the action and description sections than I would for a traditional film or TV script. In this story, the narrator is doing a lot, so I wanted there to be plenty of description. On my edit passes for Wicked Dames, I was thinking from the audience's perspective: if they are only listening with no

Are you feeling overwhelmed by the pressure to constantly release new books and battle algorithms? Do you wonder if there's a more sustainable, low-stress path to a successful author career? Is it possible to focus on art, build a loyal fanbase, and escape the publishing rat race? In this episode, Johnny B. Truant discusses the artisan author approach. In the intro, When your brain says “write!” but your body says, “nope.” [The Author Stack]; Productivity, AI, and pushback [Seth Godin]; The Buried and the Drowned, Short Story Collection. This episode is sponsored by Publisher Rocket, which will help you get your book in front of more Amazon readers so you can spend less time marketing and more time writing. I use Publisher Rocket for researching book titles, categories, and keywords — for new books and for updating my backlist. Check it out at www.PublisherRocket.com This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Johnny B. Truant is the author of over one hundred and fifty books across multiple genres, including thriller, science fiction, fantasy, comedy, and nonfiction. His latest book is The Artisan Author: The Low-Stress, High-Quality, Fan-Focused Approach to Escaping the Publishing Rat Race. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Prioritising art over profit and building direct connections with fans Moving away from the high-pressure, algorithm-focused “rapid release” model that can lead to burnout The benefits and strategies of in-person, live selling at markets and festivals to find new readers Utilising platforms like Kickstarter for book launches to create special editions and connect with true fans Adopting a “low-stress” approach to marketing by choosing what you enjoy and opting out of things like social media You can find Johnny at JohnnyBTruant.com, and the Artisan Author Kickstarter here. Transcript of Interview with Johnny B Truant Joanna: Johnny B. Truant is the author of over one hundred and fifty books across multiple genres, including thriller, science fiction, fantasy, comedy, and nonfiction. His latest book is The Artisan Author: The Low-Stress, High-Quality, Fan-Focused Approach to Escaping the Publishing Rat Race. So welcome back to the show, Johnny. Johnny: Man, it is so fun to be on The Creative Penn. It's just like coming home. It's just so great. So thank you for having me. Joanna: Well, you've been on the show multiple times over the years, and the last time was a couple of years ago when you were pivoting into this stage of your author journey. So we are going to jump straight into the topic today. Why The Artisan Author and why now? What were you seeing in the author community that made you want to write this book? Johnny: I used to do a lot of author education. We had a podcast and a book and all that. Around the time COVID started, I stopped doing a lot of that and just focused on fiction. When I came back to the 20Books Conference, the last one, so much had changed. People were really ramping up AI in different ways, the rapid release had gotten faster, and all the tactical stuff had gotten more tactical. I just remembered thinking, “Boy, I always wanted to just write books my own way, at my own speed.” Despite going fast, I don't like being forced to go fast and I don't know if this is a game I want to play anymore. You have to fit into all the very specific categories that the algorithms like to promote, and a lot of people are playing those games. In the midst of that, I did talk to another author. You may know her. She's British and runs a podcast. Joanna: Yes, it was me! Johnny: I know that you had said—I don't know if you used the word ‘artisan,' but you definitely described a lot of the things that I'm looking at now, which is, “I don't want to go in that direction either, and I'm doing more and more of what I want to do and trusting my true fans to be interested in it.” Over the course of the next year, I started thinking more and more about that. What if instead of going into that faster, faster, rapid-release, kind of a death spiral sometimes—a lot of burnouts is related to that— What if instead we acted like artists who are selling fine goods to very discerning customers? I would just call them artists and readers. We don't have to worry about price and we don't have to worry about fighting the algorithms. We can just rely on a one-to-one connection to true fans rather than hoping the algorithms will find people for us. Joanna: Yes, and I did use that word. In fact, a couple of years ago, I wrote a positioning paper for the show about positioning myself also in the artisan space. I think this is really important. It's something that we obviously care about. Having known you for many years, our conversation was sort of, “Look, don't give it all up because you are great at this.” I've been reading your writing for a long, long time, before you wrote fiction. I think what is nice about this period right now is that we do get to question things. For a while, there were kind of rules. You guys had a book, what was it, The Fiction Formula or something like that, at one point? Johnny: You know, it's so funny because I work with Sean Platt. I was working with him a lot more in that nonfiction space, and Sean will do things like that. He'll say, “Okay, we're going to call it The Fiction Formula.” And I'm like, “But we've already talked about how there's no formula.” He's like, “No, no, that's the genius. It's going to be called The Fiction Formula. There is no formula,” because he wants the catch. Joanna: But the thing is, there almost was for a bit. Like you said, we met again at the last 20BooksTo50k. That was actually a thing for a period of time. Now I kind of say, “Well, one book to 50k.” Like you said, you can, if you do fine goods to discerning customers, you can do one book to 50k. It's a very different time. It's almost like at the beginning of the indie revolution, we got to reinvent the way things were done. I feel like that's where we are again. We are reinventing the way things were done because what is new becomes old. I feel like where we are now, fifteen-plus years into the indie revolution, or maybe seventeen-plus years into it, now we can reinvent it all over again. Johnny: Yes, and that's something that I explored in The Artisan Author book. It was almost a little bit of a history lesson, not because I wanted to bore people with it, but because we were on this very sensible and aspirational trajectory for a while. We came out of the old traditional publishing days where you had to query an agent and hope that you hit the right person at the right time and in the right mood. Instead, we were suddenly without gatekeepers and we could do what we wanted. Then it started to be, “Okay, so if you write more books, you'll make more money.” We helped to contribute to that with Write. Publish. Repeat. Then it became that at all costs, with no governor on it. Like, let's just go faster. Let's forget about the caveats of trying to enjoy yourself and maybe trying to write art that you actually care about. A lot of people just went to extremes with the rapid release thing, and that's what I think really hit me when I went back to 20Books. It was like when you watch a kid grow up and then you're away for a year and you see that kid again, and that kid has gotten so big. It's kind of like that. I came back and it was like, “Oh, I remember rapid release.” It was this annoying little thing over there, and then it had become this huge thing and had become almost default. That's what bothered me the most. It wasn't that it was so dominant, it was that I knew that there were new writers coming in—not just at that conference or the Author Nation conference to follow it, but people who watch from afar, who listen to the podcasts and watch the YouTube videos. I just thought of those poor authors coming in and how overwhelming this must be. “I finally finished the book I always wanted to write. Okay, now write six more and release them every three weeks.” It's just terrible. Joanna: It is. But I wanted to make the point that — I've never done rapid release, and a lot of authors were never rapid release. It just became a loud segment of the community — — and possibly true that the people who were making more income that way. As you say, also in the time that we've been doing this, people have disappeared. Now, you disappeared, but you came back. Johnny: You said that they're loud and that more of them appeared. That's part of the problem, really. Because they are loud—and by loud I don't mean necessarily obnoxious, I just mean that you tend to talk about it a lot when you've found something that works like that. It's a vanishingly small percentage of authors, but because they are so loud, they're the ones who usually speak or write books or whatever. So it looks to people as if that's the norm, and if you aren't making serious bank as a rapid-release author, then you're just not trying hard enough. It's not; it's this tiny percentage. I remember reading in one of Becca Syme's books, she had done the research to determine how many books actually make money, and it's the vast, vast, vast majority who don't make any money at all. Yet those people are being given the same advice as everyone else, as if that's the majority and that's the way the majority works, and it's just not true. Then if we come to what you mean by an ‘artisan author,' what are some of the hallmarks? Johnny: Well, the first thing is it's art f

Are you struggling to get reviews for your book? Wondering how to navigate the different types of reviews, from customer feedback to professional blurbs? Joe Walters from IndependentBookReview.com gives his tips. In the intro, how important is ‘truth' in memoir? The Observer on Raynor Winn's The Salt Path; Raynor's statement; Memoir controversies [The Guardian]; Tips on memoir writing and ‘truth'; The Buried and the Drowned Short Story Collection; and when life stops you from achieving a goal. Today's show is sponsored by ProWritingAid, writing and editing software that goes way beyond just grammar and typo checking. With its detailed reports on how to improve your writing and integration with writing software, ProWritingAid will help you improve your book before you send it to an editor, agent or publisher. Check it out for free or get 15% off the premium edition at www.ProWritingAid.com/joanna This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Joe Walters is the author of The Truth About Book Reviews: An Insider's Guide to Getting and Using Reviews to Grow Your Readership, and also runs IndependentBookReview.com, which focuses on reviewing indie books. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes What are the three different types of book reviews? How to get customer reviews, whether you're a new author or more established Why blurbs / editorial reviews are still worth getting and how to use them Pitching influencers, book bloggers, and more What kind of reviews can you pay for, and what can you definitely NOT pay for? Handling negative reviews, and the importance of getting feedback before publication You can find Joe at IndependentBookReview.com. Transcript of Interview with Joe Walters Joanna: Joe Walters is the author of The Truth About Book Reviews: An Insider's Guide to Getting and Using Reviews to Grow Your Readership, and also runs IndependentBookReview.com, which focuses on reviewing indie books. So welcome to the show, Joe. Joe: Oh, thank you so much for having me. Joanna: It's good to have you on. So first up— Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and publishing. Joe: I started writing back in college and fell in love with it through Ray Bradbury. I wanted to be a high school English teacher, but I learned pretty quickly that teaching was a lot of work when I came home, and not the same as discussing books in college. So, I decided to become a volunteer reader for a literary magazine called Indianola Review. We were print and digital, and I would read short stories with a team and vote on whether they would be published. I absolutely loved that. I moved away from teaching and became a server so that I could have more time to read and write. While I was serving, I found a job in Oregon as the marketing director at a small press called Inkwater Press. By some miracle, I got that job and had to figure out what book marketing was. It's a long game, and I read your book and so many others about how to do it. I got my feet wet, figured out how to market and sell books, and how to get authors who I knew cared about their writing read by more people. Then I had to move from Portland, Oregon, and come back home to Pennsylvania. But I didn't want to stop being in publishing, so I started Independent Book Review. I knew that indie authors needed a platform for book reviews, and I knew I could do a good job with it. I started building that and worked freelance for two other indie presses, Paper Raven Books and Sunbury Press. I was targeting book reviews for them, doing metadata, book descriptions, author bios—anything you could think of for book marketing. I was doing all of that for those presses while building Independent Book Review. A couple of years ago, Independent Book Review became my full-time job. So every day, I'm editing and promoting reviews, and it's truly the best job I've ever had. Joanna: I love that. I love that you have loved books and stories so much that you've dedicated so much time to it. But why indie books then? Because you obviously worked in the more traditional side as well, and you come from literature at university and all that. Why did you choose indie books? Joe: I just knew how much they needed it. It has nothing to do with quality why they're not getting picked up by major review companies or major blurbers. Their books are still great. They still get editing and great cover design, but they don't have big teams or a lot of money behind them pushing the books. I knew how much I could at least be another voice for them. “Indie” really means all of the authors that you know down the street, your friends. It's very rare that you're friends with Stephen King. I'm trying to help the little guy who loves writing and books and just wants to get his work out there. So, I'm all indie all the time, that's for sure. Except for my leisure reading—sometimes I dabble elsewhere. Joanna: We all read around. When you are a big reader like we are, you hardly ever look at the publisher, right? It's not like we go shopping by publisher, but you are right in terms of who reviews stuff. Then your own book— What kind of writing have you done, and tell us why you wanted to do this book? Joe: I've always been a fiction writer. I've been writing short stories for a long time. I'm still working on a novel I started 10 years ago, and it's not there yet. I wanted to finish that book before I got my book review book out, but then I just had to get the book review book out. I couldn't wait on my little 10-year-old protagonist anymore. I had to jump in and offer my expertise to the indie community for book reviews. Mostly, when I was working for presses, I just got the question a lot: “How do you get book reviews?” “How do you get certain types of book reviews?” So, big media, blogs, podcast interviews, customer reviews—I got all of these questions all the time. I wanted to create a resource for all of those authors. I enjoy writing about it too. I've been writing book marketing blogs for years, and I always thought that was my best chance of making jokes. So I filled my book with jokes and as much experience and knowledge as I have, and put them all in one place. You're going to get specific platforms to try pitching. You're going to have book review resources in my book. I just tried to gather all of the things in one place instead of authors and presses searching forever to figure out what works. I tried to compress everything I know into one document, and now I've got it with The Truth About Book Reviews. Joanna: It is super useful. We are going to come to the content of the book in a minute. Given that this was, I guess, your first self-publishing experience, how did that go? Did you learn anything that made you understand why being an indie is difficult? Joe: Oh, too many things. First of all, the timeline. The hope I had for finishing a book in like three months definitely got sidetracked. With the amount of things I have to do for Independent Book Review and in my everyday life, three months was impossible. Initially, I said, “Oh, this book's going to be out in January,” and here we are with a July 10th release date and I'm still sprinting. So that is difficult. Also, I tried to upload my ebook for KDP pre-order about two weeks ago with a different subtitle, and they shut me down four or five different times before I had to change it. I even told my wife, “I'm not changing the subtitle. I like it too much. I'm not keyword farming or anything. I'm not cheating.” My book is about books. The subtitle was originally “An Insider's Guide to Getting Book Reviews and Using Them to Market Your Book.” Pretty straightforward, I think. But you can't have “book” too many times in the title and subtitle. I had it three times, so I cut one out. I said, “Getting Reviews and Using Them to Market Your Book,” and they didn't even like that. So I had to get rid of it. There are no “books” in the subtitle now, but at least it's up for pre-order. Joanna: This is so interesting. With my very first book, I also put up something—this was in the early days when there was only really Amazon in terms of self-publishing. I had something like “From Idea to Amazon” as a subtitle, and they shut that down because, of course, I used their own company name, and I understood that. The word “book” does seem a little extreme, especially when it's about book reviews. But this is the point, there are all of these things that are difficult to do. So let's get into the content of the book. It is super useful. So authors do obviously talk about book reviews as if they're one thing, but they're not all one thing. What are the different types of book reviews and where can they be used? Joe: I separate them into three different types of reviews. I've seen other marketers separate them into four, but let's stick with three for now. The first one in my timeline is blurbs or editorial reviews. Basically, those are like testimonials for your book. You ask authors or experts in your niche to read an early copy of your book and provide a few sentences of praise for it so that you can use it on your marketing material. That could be putting it on your book cover. For example, if you get a big notable name, you put J.F. Penn right on the front cover, and bam, that's helping other readers and browsers see that this could be a book for them. You can also put it on your Amazon page itself in the editorial review section through Amazon Author Central, or you can do it with

Have you ever dreamed of turning a passion for storytelling into a profitable, long-term career? How do you build multiple successful author brands without burning out? What marketing strategies actually work in today's fast-changing industry? Ines Johnson shares her journey and the secrets to her success. In the intro, 5 phases of an author business [Becca Syme]; Lessons from writing every day for two decades [Ryan Holiday]; What the First AI Copyright Ruling Means for Authors [ALLi Podcast]; Plus, Lichfield Cathedral; The Buried and the Drowned Short Story Collection; and 50% off all my JFPenn ebooks and audiobooks and digital bundles for July 25.   Write and format stunning books with Atticus. Create professional print books and eBooks easily with the all-in-one book writing software. Try it out at Atticus.io This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Ines Johnson is a romance author with over a hundred books spanning paranormal, urban fantasy, contemporary, and erotica, as well as sweet romance under another pen name. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes From funk band upbringing to TV, teaching and writing Writing faster as a trained screenwriter Staying within your lane — depending on your goals The business of writing, and planning income and progress AIDA for marketing — Attention, Interest, Desire, Action Kickstarter for PageTurner Planning Selling direct and the experience you bring to readers The joys of Romancelandia You can find Ines at InesWrites.com or InesWrites.substack.com. Transcript of Interview with Ines Johnson Joanna: Ines Johnson is a romance author with over a hundred books spanning paranormal, urban fantasy, contemporary, and erotica, as well as sweet romance under another pen name. Welcome to the show, Ines. Ines: Hi, Jo. Thank you so much for having me. Joanna: I'm excited to talk to you today. First up— Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and publishing. Ines: I grew up in a funk band; that's always my truth. My father was the bass player, and one of my formative memories was of him explaining music composition to me. He explained how the keyboard had its part and would tell a story, the drums had a part and would tell a story, and then finally the vocalists came on and they told a different story. He showed me how all of these worked together to make the story complete, to be the characters. It was from that moment I knew I was supposed to be in storytelling. I thought I was going to be a singer, but my daddy said, “Oh, sweetie, no, you're not going to be a singer.” So I started first in television, and then I found my way into novel writing. I worked in cable television for a number of years for National Geographic Television, on the Explorer show, which was before they had a channel. I loved that; we met so many fascinating people from all around the world. Then I started to work in children's television. While I was working in children's television, I was also an avid reader, which I have been since I was very young. There are pictures of my youngest aunt corralling me and my cousins off the city bus and into the library. Going to the library and being able to take books home was the best thing ever. But my godmother, who lived a few blocks up the street, had a pantry where you’re supposed to keep boxes of pasta and cans of beans. She didn't have that. Instead, she had all these teeny tiny little Harlequins and Silhouettes; that was my second library. She said I could take and read whatever I wanted, and I did. She didn't try to censor me because, back then, the love scene was when the waves would crash! I read those books and it became an absolute addiction for me, and it stayed with me even when I was working in television. When I went on to work in children's television, I was reading Twilight in between reading scripts for the show. The writing bug bit me. I would be writing screenplays in Final Draft, then switch over to Word or eventually Scrivener and work on a novel. It took me years for that first novel to be recognizable as a piece of literature. It has not seen the light of day, but that was fine. After the first one, I wrote the next one in a year, the next in six months, the next in three months, and now I'm a whole lot faster than that. But I always like to preface my “speed” with the fact that I'm a trained screenwriter. We would do 13 scripts per season, two seasons per year. That's a normal pace for me. My brain doesn't think it's supposed to take a year or more to write a novel. No, you need to have this full script, this part of the story, done in the time you have. Joanna: That is really interesting. I think people who come from screenwriting or journalism are fast writers because they're used to deadlines. It’s a job, you do the work, and there are the words. I get that. When did you first decide to self-publish? Ines: I first self-published in December 2014. I published a three-part serial, as it was really popular to do serial books back then. It was the era of KU 1.0, where you got paid the same no matter how long or short the book was. That worked for me because that's how my mind is; I don't think in terms of a feature film, I think in episodes. So I started to write these shorter stories, and they did well, and then I just wrote more and more. At the time, I only wrote romance, but I didn't understand genres or tropes. I started writing a dystopian, then a sci-fi, then a paranormal. I was going all over the place, and each time I was building a new audience that wouldn't follow to the next genre. The people that read the dystopian were not interested in the contemporary, and so on. It didn't make sense to me until other authors pulled me up by my bootstraps and said, “Girlfriend, let me give you some advice.” That's the beautiful thing about the romance author community. They told me, “It's fantastic that you keep finding an audience, but you want to try to retain them. One of the ways to do that is to pick a lane and stay in it.” I was crisscrossing too many lanes on the highway to keep my readers. That's when I decided pen names were for me because I didn't want to limit myself, so I just made more than one. Joanna: I know that people don't cross over and it's so weird, isn't it? Because I think many writers, myself included, read so many different genres. So I don't really understand people who only read one. How have the pen names worked for you and how do you keep multiple names going? Ines: For the folks that are listening, I think the vast majority of readers probably read a handful of books a year. Indies aren't focused on the masses like that. We're very focused on the ‘whale readers,' the ones that read a book a day. I'm a whale reader; I read one to two books a day. A lot of these whale readers are often mood readers, so you don't necessarily have to pick a lane and stay in it forever. For a period of time, they may only want one specific thing. Right now, I'm in a contemporary mood. Next week I'll be in a historical mood, and after that, I might be in a sci-fi mood. However, if you want a faster route to profitability, picking a lane is a strategy that works. It's just a strategy, and it's a strategy that works if you're looking at profitability. If you are an artist, then you don't have to listen to this advice. You have to determine what you want out of your career, and that's the lane you need to pick. If your goal requires you to be a very focused genre writer, then you do that. If you are a different kind of writer and you want to write across various spectrums, you just need to set your goals accordingly. Find the right readers, and then stay on your beautiful highway. Joanna: Apart from focus, what are the other mistakes that either you've made yourself or that you see others make? Ines: The main mistake I see… well, one person's mistake can be another person's boon. I feel that if you understand who you are, what you want, and what your goals are, you make fewer mistakes. They just become opportunities. For me, you are not going to see me talking about politics in my books. I'm trying to escape it as much as I possibly can. But I see other authors who embrace it wholeheartedly, and the readers love them for it. I see authors who post very personal things on social media. I am not that girl. I keep a lot of things close to my chest. You'll feel like you know me, but you couldn't tell a lot of actual facts about me after a conversation. I don't suffer from that because I know what my limits are. For other authors, that’s a mistake for them because they go too far. I really think it becomes about understanding who you are and what you want because this industry changes so fast you will get whiplash. The thing that stays the same is you, your goals, and why you're doing this. If you can keep that close to your chest, any potential mistake becomes an opportunity that you can really see and dig deep into to make the best of it. Joanna: You mentioned you started in KU, but now you are selling direct as well as publishing wide. A lot of people think all romance authors are just KU authors. Tell us about selling direct and wide. Ines: I started in KU because I didn't understand how to upload to the other retailers. Eventually, I learned, but I'm always looking at my goals, and my pen names have different goals. My Ines Johnson pen name mostly writes paranormal and fantasy. My Shanae Johnson pen name is the queen of wholesome romance. She sticks to

How is the rise of AI changing the world of audiobooks for authors and narrators? Can a synthetic voice ever capture the nuance of human performance, and what does it mean to write for the ear, not just the eye? Jules Horne talks about the seismic shifts in the audiobook industry and how you can adapt your writing process for an audio-first world. In the intro, using AI tools in the editing business [Words to Write By Podcast]; Fair use ruling for generative AI [BBC; Publishers Weekly; Alicia Wright interview]; I'm also on various podcasts talking about author branding, longevity, and creating over the long term [Writing With Purpose; The Authors Lounge; Bookfunnel Podcast]. Plus, Pèlerinage: Seule sur trois chemins anciens pour réinventer ma vie; Traveling by Cruise Ship on Books and Travel, my Kickstarter for short story collection, The Buried and the Drowned. Today's show is sponsored by Draft2Digital, self-publishing with support, where you can get free formatting, free distribution to multiple stores, and a host of other benefits. Just go to www.draft2digital.com to get started. This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Jules Horne is a Scottish playwright, radio dramatist, poet, and fiction writer. She also writes nonfiction for authors, including the very useful Writing for Audiobooks. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes The biggest industry shifts in audio, including the move to subscription models like Spotify and the impact of AI narration. An honest assessment of the quality of AI voices—what are the ‘tells' and how quickly are they improving? Practical tips for adapting your nonfiction book for audio, from handling visuals and numbers to structuring for listener retention. How to write fiction with an “audio-first” mindset, focusing on sentence length, dialogue tags, and the rhythm of your prose. The potential for hybrid and multicast productions using a mix of human and AI voices. Marketing and selling your audiobooks, including direct sales vs. platform exclusives. You can find Jules at method-writing.com. Transcript of Interview with Jules Horne Joanna: Jules Horne is a Scottish playwright, radio dramatist, poet, and fiction writer. She also writes nonfiction for authors, including the very useful Writing for Audiobooks. Welcome back to the show, Jules. Jules: Hello, Joanna. Thanks very much for having me. It's great to be here. Joanna: It's great to have you back. It was 2019 when you were last on the show. So first up— Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and aspects of audio and performance. Jules: Audio was never really a big thing in my life, but I did start writing very small and did a bit of, I guess, very junior theatre. When I studied literature at university, I got totally put off because it was so daunting. I got into playwriting when a theatre company came to our local area and offered engagement workshops. That eventually led to some writing commissions. I ended up writing some stage plays and a few BBC radio dramas, which was really lovely to do. I also worked in radio news writing and presenting for a while, so I did a bit of recording voice and writing for voice. I did a lot of presenting, so you kind of got a real feel for the flow of audio. I loved editing different people's voices; that was really fun, and the techie side. I think that led to an interest in audio first and also a real feel for voices in general and editing. It's been a long-term interest of mine. Joanna: As I mentioned, you were on the show in 2019 when we talked about writing for audiobooks, and you've updated the book since then. I wanted to come back to it because things have really changed over the last five and a half years. What are some of the biggest industry shifts in terms of audiobook growth, publishing, subscription platforms, and technology changes? Jules: It's been astonishing; it's just been extraordinary what's happened in the last few years. We thought it was fast then, but what's happened very recently has just been whoosh. For many years, Audible and ACX were the dominant distribution platforms, with such a monopoly. All that time, audiobooks have been growing really, really strongly as a publishing niche with high growth and new markets taking off. It's still really going strong. I think one of the big things that's changed is it has moved from one-off purchases to subscription models, similar to Netflix or Prime for TV and films. That's been for a good few years now. Then Spotify launched its audiobook tier in 2023, which was a bit of a game changer. It puts audiobooks alongside music and podcasts, and it really widens the audience. Of course, that comes along with some worries for authors because Spotify hasn't been great for musicians, with tiny royalties there. So, time will tell how that plays out. Then of course, there's AI, which is affecting every kind of sector. It has been expected for a while that Amazon would open the gates to AI voices, and now that's happened. You can very simply upload your ebook as usual and then add an audiobook with virtual voices. That's bound to have a major impact on publishing and, of course, on livelihoods for audiobook narrators and actors. So, that's a huge development in this last while. Joanna: Any technological change has a lot of benefits and a lot of downsides. You mentioned Spotify and the worries over potential royalties, but from my personal perspective, I often think about these places as, yes, some income, but also marketing and reaching a much wider audience. As a listener myself, I moved over to Spotify for podcast and music listening years ago, and then I moved my audiobook listening over. Now I wouldn't go back because I listen quite differently and use the Spotify search engine and their algorithm. It's like we are meeting listeners where they are. Yes, there are some good things and some bad things, but you can't stop the change. Jules: Absolutely. I think the widening of listenership and different people suddenly being introduced to your books in ways they wouldn't have before is huge for authors. So, yes, definitely one to consider. Joanna: We're in a time where a lot of people say, “For some reason, I don't read,” as if that's something to be proud of. But a lot of people do listen. A lot of people listen in the car, when they're exercising, or whatever they're doing. I listen when I'm out walking. I think having our books in audio is so important, and yet it has been very expensive, hasn't it? So again, the trade-off is that for a lot of authors, it's not human or AI; it's AI or nothing because they couldn't have afforded it. Jules: That's right, and I think the thing with reading is really interesting too because more and more people are recognizing listening as a form of reading. The attitude to it being “just listening” is changing as well. People are imbibing books in different ways now. The cost of AI is really approachable, and if that's the only option, then that's one that authors will definitely be considering. Particularly with KDP, where they've made it such an integral part of the overall indie publishing experience. They've made it really simple to just upload, continue, and then you can preview some voices and try it out. You can try it out with different voices. It is quite extraordinary, and I think a lot of authors will probably choose that route. Joanna: Just to timestamp this interview, we're in the middle of June 2025. Just last week, I got an email from ACX with a survey. It included a whole load of questions around what I might want from AI voices. It feels like even though the virtual voice is through the KDP dashboard and is quite simple, there might be something else on the horizon. Did you get that or what do you think? Jules: I didn't get that one. What were the questions? That's really curious. Joanna: They were things like, “Here's a list of things that you might be interested in. Rate them in order of what you want.” And one of them would have been a lot more control of the text and the audio quality and sales platforms, like how to do much more marketing of things. It was really interesting because I was like, “Oh, this seems very, very positive for the future.” Jules: Yeah, that's a really interesting one too, because the marketing side with ACX and Audible has been really difficult for authors, hasn't it? You can't really, unless you're a vendor on Amazon, advertise your books, and you can't price them. These kinds of things. So I wonder if that's maybe in the offering too. That would be great. Joanna: People seem to criticize the AI voices, for example, and say, “Oh, well they're not very good.” And it's like, well, they're a lot better than they were six months ago, and in six months' time, they're going to be even better. I wanted to ask you about this because you are very experienced in all this different voice stuff, different elements of human voice performance. So I think your ear is probably very attuned. Honestly, what do you think about some of the quality of these AI-narrated voices? Jules: I think the quality's changing super fast. What maybe sounds a bit monotonous now—and I think that's the main quality that AI voices tend to have now—I think that's going to change really fast. When you hear some of the higher-end products in that space, like ElevenLabs, you realize the way things are evolving. It is quite astounding. At the moment, there are very clear tells, and I think most people will be able to pick thos

Is the high cost of audiobook production holding you back? What if you could create a high-quality audiobook for a fraction of the traditional cost? In this conversation, Simon Patrick explores the world of AI narration with ElevenLabs, discussing how you can gain complete creative control, and even license your own voice clone for a new stream of income. This episode is supported by my patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Simon Patrick founded Ten Times Better Books to support his daughter, Abby Patrick, as one of ElevenLabs' first users and beta testers. He has produced several of their most popular AI voices. He now develops courses and AI audiobook solutions for independent authors at Novel Productions. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Costs vs benefits of human vs AI narration Features of ElevenLabs — realistic and expressive voices, creative control, ownership of final audio files for wide distribution to platforms like Spotify. Practical tips for AI narration ElevenLabs v3 and emotion tags Creating and monetizing a voice clone Publishing on ElevenReader You can find Simon at Novel.Productions or 10xb.com. Transcript of the interview Joanna: Simon Patrick founded Ten Times Better Books to support his daughter, Abby Patrick, as one of ElevenLabs' first users and beta testers. He has produced several of their most popular AI voices. He now develops courses and AI audiobook solutions for independent authors at Novel Productions. Welcome to the show, Simon. Simon: Thank you, Joanna. It's such a joy to be speaking with you. Your podcast and books were foundational to my daughter, Abby, becoming an author and me learning to be her publisher and all that's happened since. I love your Patreon @thecreativepenn. It's the best money I spend every month, frankly. It's just a great community to be part of, so it's such a joy to be sharing some of what I've learned. Joanna: Oh, thank you so much. Behind the scenes on the Patreon, Simon has done a video demo of ElevenLabs. Today, obviously, we're doing audio-only. So first up— Tell us a bit more about your background and why you decided to get into AI-narrated audiobooks. Simon: Okay. Well, I've got 25 years of experience in marketing and design. I still am halftime head of communications for an international charity, but we've always had our own businesses too. My wife and I ran a small home education tuition publishing business. We've home-educated our three kids, which brings me to Abby, my daughter who brought me into your world of book publishing. She was going to college, studying early years education, and was just bored out of her mind. She asked if she could drop out of college to be a writer instead. She'd been writing a book since she was 15. To the astonishment of her friends and some of ours too, we said yes. Let me add, it was responsible parenting. We made her finish the term, stick it out, and do the work experience. By Christmas 2019, she'd left to pursue finishing her book based on the deal that — If she learned to write, I would learn to publish for her. Joanna: Wow! Simon: So I attended the first Self Publishing Show in that crazy spring of 2020. I think you were there too, just a few days before the pandemic shut us all down. I've listened to hundreds of your podcasts, read your books, done some of the Self-Publishing Formula courses, and learned to be Abby's publisher. Since then, I have used those skills and connected with a few other authors, so I probably publish a book or two a month, something like that. Audio has always been the stumbling block. I love audiobooks. As a family, we must consume hundreds of hours a month of them. There are incredible narrators like Ray Porter and Daniel Rigby, who self-narrates his own Audible exclusives, and my absolute favourite, a guy called Jeff Hayes, who narrates incredibly. They're amazing talents, and I don't think AI is going to touch them because they bring so much humanity to the performance. But to ordinary authors and publishers, those narrators are inaccessible. I don't even want to think about what they cost. For Abby, who is still just starting out, any professional narration would cost her three to four thousand dollars for her books. The math just doesn't work. While there are options like a royalty split with ACX, Audible's publishing platform, I struggle with that. Firstly, you're tied in exclusively to Audible for seven years, and we're big fans of going wide. Secondly, you're only getting 20% of the royalties when it's being split. I just don't think for us, they're ever going to make that money back. So all of that is what led me in early 2023 to be searching for AI audio options. ChatGPT was going crazy, you were demoing all of that at the time, and I figured there must be some kind of AI audio option that would let me take control of the process and hopefully produce good audiobooks way more cheaply than current options. That's when I discovered ElevenLabs. Joanna: There's lots to unpack there. First of all, as you mentioned, there are some incredible human narrators, and we want to acknowledge them. I'm also a human narrator myself. For most authors, especially indie authors or new authors, it's not a choice between human or AI; it's AI or nothing because they can't afford the fees. As you said, a lot of the time you don't know if you're going to make the money back. So I think that's really important to acknowledge. There are lots of AI narration options now. It is hard for authors to decide which platform to use. So what is ElevenLabs, and why do you think it's the best option for quality and also for publishing reach? You mentioned ACX, and there's obviously AVV, the Audible Virtual Voice. Most people might think, “Well, maybe I should just do that.” Give us an overview on why you made that decision to go with ElevenLabs. Simon: Absolutely. ElevenLabs continues to be the most realistic AI platform out there. They kicked off about two and a half years ago. I was one of their first users, and even back then, they were so much better than everything else. There were lots of programmers wanting to do clever things with APIs and websites, but I just wanted to make audiobooks with these things. They were actually listening, which is remarkable in the publishing industry sometimes. About a year and a half ago, and for reference, we're in June 2025 right now, they launched ElevenLabs Studio. It can take a whole book, like the ePub that I've worked on for Abby or a Word document, you can drop it in and have it convert it chapter by chapter, paragraph by paragraph into a great-sounding audiobook. The high quality and natural-sounding elements of it are why I was first attracted to them. The expressiveness is just another step above. The comparison with Amazon's Virtual Voice is that it's so much more pleasant to listen to, but it doesn't just sound better — What I love about it is the complete creative control it gives me. There are thousands of voices I can pick from, a whole library of voices. They're real people, people like me, actually, who have recorded their voice and then licensed it to ElevenLabs and get paid a small amount. Then when it's used, there's actually compensation to those who've licensed their voices to it. It’s not like the large language models like ChatGPT where the whole universe seems to have been scraped and compiled into this thing. They're being super diligent about making sure it's all kosher, that it's real people's voices and they're getting compensated. Beyond that, the tools they're building give you control. They're incredibly open to listening to feedback, which has been brilliant. I'm talking to the programmers regularly. They've got a great Discord where they're asking for feedback. With the tools, I can spend time perfecting the book. I can get the dialogue just the way I want it. I can create a duet audiobook with a male narrator for male POVs and a female for female POVs. I can even do multi-cast and assign different voices to each character in the book. Probably most importantly, I can download the whole thing as WAV files or MP3s. The big difference with something like Amazon Virtual Voice is that I own what I've created with ElevenLabs. It's a commercial license, so I can put them into BookFunnel's audio delivery service, I can put them on my website, you can add them to a Kickstarter, stick them on YouTube, or just give them away for free if I wanted to. In terms of publishing reach, they're doing a lot. We were kind of stuck with either self-publishing, YouTube, or Kobo, who are superstars and super open. But one of the game changers that's happened in the last few months is you can now add them to Spotify, which has come in as the big disruptor for Audible and Amazon. You've done that recently with the book that we produced together. How's that been? Joanna: Death Valley, which has been on the feed, you can listen to a couple of chapters, and that's using my voice clone. We'll come back to the voice clone in a minute. As you mentioned, I think it's mainly the ownership of the files and the Spotify distribution. At the moment, it really is only Google's auto-narration and ElevenLabs that you can use legitimately on Spotify through Findaway Voices. You cannot use the AVV files anywhere else. So I think that's incredibly important because, of course— We can talk forever about how to make audio, but it's also about selling audio, isn't it? Simon: And for anyone who's dealt with KDP or Audible customer services, I probably don'

Are you looking for new ways to connect with readers and market your books? Have you considered using podcasts but aren't sure where to start, or if they're even effective anymore? How can you turn a simple podcast interview into a powerful tool for building your author career? Matty Dalrymple talks about how to leverage podcasting for long-term success. In the intro, Robert MacFarlane on How I Write Podcast; Are em dashes really a sign of AI writing? [Grammar Girl]; Publishing Pitfalls for Authors; ALLi Self-Publishing Services list; Writer Beware; Midjourney for video; This episode is sponsored by Publisher Rocket, which will help you get your book in front of more Amazon readers so you can spend less time marketing and more time writing. I use Publisher Rocket for researching book titles, categories, and keywords — for new books and for updating my backlist. Check it out at www.PublisherRocket.com This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Matty Dalrymple is the author of mysteries, thrillers, and nonfiction, and is the host of The Indy Author Podcast. Today we are talking about her new book, co-written with Mark Lefebvre, The Podcast Guest Playbook: Turning Conversations into Connections and Community. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Why podcasts offer a deeper connection with potential readers compared to short-form video How to pitch podcast hosts effectively by providing value and demonstrating familiarity with their show Tangential topics and creative angles fiction authors can use to land interviews on a variety of shows The importance of building authentic, non-transactional relationships with hosts and other creators Practical tips on how to prepare for an interview and gain confidence as a podcast guest Why it's never too late to start your own podcast and how it can benefit your writing process You can find Matty at MattyDalrymple.com or TheIndyAuthor.com. Matty also offers coaching for authors around podcast practice. Transcript of the interview Jo: Matty Dalrymple is the author of mysteries, thrillers, and nonfiction, and is the host of The Indy Author Podcast. Today we are talking about her new book, co-written with Mark Lefebvre, The Podcast Guest Playbook: Turning Conversations into Connections and Community. So welcome back to the show, Matty. Matty: Thank you. It is lovely to be here. Jo: Matty's been on the show before. I need to check when it was. It was in 2020, which is obviously like a lifetime away now because it was the beginning of the pandemic. It is like a completely different life. But you did talk a bit then about how you got into writing. What does your author life and business look like now? Matty: Well, I think this had just become true in 2020, that I am a full-time author, podcaster, and publisher. Since then, I've continued to add to my two fiction series, the Ann Kinnear Suspense Novels and the Lizzy Ballard Thrillers. I've also been working hard on my nonfiction books for authors. We're going to be talking about my new book with Mark. Back then we had been talking about Taking the Short Tack, which is the first book I co-authored with Mark. Since then, I have also co-authored two books with our mutual friend Michael La Ronn on being an author speaker and on, appropriately enough, co-authoring nonfiction. So, yes, continuing to add to the portfolio. Jo: And of course, you've got the podcast and— You are also an advisor for the Alliance of Independent Authors, right? Matty: That's right. I'm the Campaigns Manager, so I'm responsible for ALLi's campaigns which are: Open Up to Indie Authors, Ethical Self-Publishing, Self-Publishing for All, and Publishing for Profit. That has been super fun. I've been doing that for just over a year now. Jo: Fantastic. So yes, multiple strings to your bow. So let's get into the book. I guess the first thing is, are podcasts even useful for book marketing in an age of short-form video? We're all told that it's all about TikTok and BookTok and social media. What is special about podcasting that makes it worth investing time in? Matty: Well, I think that the strength of podcasts is the depth of the connections you can form. I have to say, I'm not super familiar with BookTok. When TikTok first came out, I spent about 35 seconds on it and I found it so not for me that it was clear I was not going to be providing content for TikTok or BookTok, and I probably wasn't going to be consuming that content either. I think that obviously some authors are getting great connections on BookTok, but it doesn't feel like a deep relationship. It feels more like entertainment. The strength of podcasts is that you do have a chunk of time—you know, 30 minutes or 45 minutes or an hour—to dive into your topic in depth, to describe your book, but more importantly, the stories behind your book in depth. The benefit that those other platforms don't have at all is the benefits that come from forming a relationship with the podcast host, which is something that Mark and I spend quite a bit of time discussing in the book. I think that's kind of an underutilized benefit of podcasting. Jo: A few things there. I mean, the in-depth conversation… people listening to this are people who listen to podcasts. So that is the kind of audience. But you are right, it gives people time to decide whether they even identify with this person in a deeper way. I get so many of my book recommendations from podcasting. I think, “Well, that was interesting,” and I'll go and listen to their book or read their book. You obviously interview people all the time for your show, and you are also a listener to shows. How does podcasting translate into book sales, since that is an important reason for it? Matty: It is about letting people know about a book or a new book, but I think more importantly, it's about letting listeners know about you as an author. The advice that Mark and I give very strongly is that if you go into a podcast interview with the mindset that what you're looking to get out of this is book sales, it's not going to be as effective, even for book sales, as if you go into it with the opinion that you're there to provide value to the host and to the host's listeners. Then book sales and many other benefits are going to come from that. You intrigue people about your book by talking about it in a thoughtful and in-depth way, by sharing information. If you're writing nonfiction, you want to get the word out about that. I have learned this from you: you can share lots and lots of information from your nonfiction book on podcasts and people will still buy your book because they want it in even more depth than you can provide in a podcast interview. They want it there for easy reference. They want it as an acknowledgment of the value you've provided. So going into that with that service mindset rather than a sales mindset, I think is the most important thing for getting sales. Jo: Yes, I totally agree. Let's talk about fiction as well, because you are a fiction writer. Both of us write fiction and nonfiction, but I do think it is harder for fiction authors to find appropriate podcasts to pitch and to talk about different angles. So what's your advice to fiction authors who might feel like it's not so worthwhile? Matty: Yes, I agree that it is more of a challenge for fiction authors. I think the thing to keep in mind for those authors is, first of all, to find the podcasts that are focused on your genre. I think certain genres are easier for that. I write in the general crime fiction genre, and there are a number of podcasts that are focused on that, that are specifically targeted to crime fiction readers. I think that there are probably other genres where there isn't maybe that same breadth of availability of podcasts focused on reaching readers of those genres. I think in all those cases, the thing to do after you've identified the target podcasts is to think of the stories behind the story that you can tell. We don't recommend that you go into an interview with the idea that you're going to share a summary of the plot of your book. That's just not going to be interesting to anyone and may deter people from buying the book if they've heard what they think is the whole story. Readers love to hear about the fiction process. Fiction readers love to hear about the research you put into your book, or if your characters are based on real people, or even if you can come up with interesting answers to the “where do you get your ideas?” question. That can be great fodder for these conversations. Think of those things as what you would chat about if you met a reader who loved the same genre that you write in. You might, in your podcast interview, not even focus on your own book. You and the host might get into a really interesting conversation about other books in your genre. Listeners will think, “Oh, that person had such an interesting take on horror, or on thriller, or on romance,” and now they want to see what your take is in your own book. So I think there are lots of angles that fiction writers can take that make for an interesting and engaging interview. Jo: And for me, it's about place. I have my Books and Travel podcast as well. As this goes out, the episode that should be up is on cruise ships and the mystery author Wendy Jones who writes cozy mysteries set on cruise ships. She was an entertainer on cruise ships, and so we have an episode all about being on cruise ships and cruise ship life. Actually, she writes cozy mysteries, so some percentage of that audience will go on an

How can you find your voice through writing in different genres and mediums over the years? How can you shift your mindset around book marketing, whatever your age? Betsy Lerner shares her experience of writing and books over decades in the publishing industry. In the intro, Going Local: Authors on the payoffs and pitfalls of hometown sales and promotion [Self-Publishing Advice]; Selling Books in Person at Live Events; Artist = Entrepreneur [Steven Pressfield]; Ecosystems come and go [Seth Godin]; 1000 True Fans [Kevin Kelly]. Plus, Exeter Cathedral, Death Valley, a Thriller; Successful Self-Publishing Fourth Edition; and The AI-Assisted Artisan Author webinar. This podcast is sponsored by Kobo Writing Life, which helps authors self-publish and reach readers in global markets through the Kobo eco-system. You can also subscribe to the Kobo Writing Life podcast for interviews with successful indie authors. This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Betsy Lerner is an award-winning editor, literary agent and the author of fiction, non-fiction and memoir. Her book for writers is The Forest for the Trees: An Editor's Advice to Writers.You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes The publishing hierarchy—and the love of books that brings us together Tips to overcome your perception of writers vs. your own potential Balancing the desire for success and the fear of failure How writing can help one cope with grief Balancing editorial feedback and maintaining creative confidence Why publishers want their authors to have a pre-existing platform Embracing TikTok and BookTok at any age Navigating the current publishing industry You can find Betsy at BetsyLerner.com or on Tiktok at @BetsyLerner. Transcript of Interview with Betsy Lerner Joanna: Betsy Lerner is an award-winning editor, literary agent and the author of fiction, non-fiction and memoir. Her book for writers is The Forest for the Trees: An Editor's Advice to Writers.So welcome to the show, Betsy. Betsy: Thank you so much. Joanna: Oh, it's great to have you on. So first up— Tell us a bit more about you and how you have managed to experience almost every aspect of publishing across your career. Betsy: Publishing was actually not my first dream. I went to NYU for film school my freshman year, and I was “invited to leave” after the first year. That was devastating. I was not kicked out of school completely. I finished and got my degree in English, and then, like most English majors, was at a complete loss of what to do. I could not get a publishing job because I couldn't pass a typing test, which was required back in 1982. So I did a stop gap, and I worked at an investment bank for a couple of years in the library. I got it together to apply to graduate school, and I went for my MFA in poetry. At that time, I interned at a literary agency. That was really my first bite into the publishing world. I absolutely loved it. I loved being around writers and books and book jackets and galleys and all the accoutrements of that world. So when I finished my MFA, I went into publishing. I climbed the editorial ladder, as one does in the States. I'm not quite sure if it's the same in the UK. You go from being an editorial assistant to an assistant editor, editor, senior editor, etc. I really thrived and loved it very much. I became an agent when I had my child, and pre-pandemic there was no flexibility in the publishing houses. You couldn't even work at home for a half a day, let alone remote work. So I eventually crossed over to agenting, really for the flexibility of my time. Over these 40 years, I managed to write a few books every few years or so. I think the writer in me always sort of played second fiddle to the editor or agent in me. It always sort of came out one way or another. Joanna: I love that. You said how much you found a home in publishing because you love books and all the things of being around books. That's what I wanted people to remember. Often, there's always this stuff about, oh, this editor or this publishing house or this agent, or whatever. People always want to moan. We’re just all book people, right? We all love books. That's why, despite all the ups and downs, we all want to be in this industry. Betsy: Absolutely. There’s, in my mind, sort of this hierarchy where everybody wants to be the writer. Then next best is the editor. Then next best is the marketing, publicity, sales person. Also, all the wonderful designers and illustrators and people who make book jackets. Everybody is all in it together, but I’ve often found that the people behind the scenes get very little credit. I always, as an editor and even as an agent, always really loved and respected all the people all up and down the chain who contributed. Yes, all book people, big readers, movie goers, pop culture people. I’ve had a wonderful 40 years in the industry, even with all the ups and downs, and there are many downs. Joanna: Yes, we'll come back to those. You said that everyone wants to be the writer, like that's the first thing. In the book, you have this wonderful line: “When I entered the business, I believed that writers were exalted beings.” That made me smile because I remember feeling like that. I always was a reader, and I thought I could never be a writer, because they're so special, and it stopped me. So what can you say to people listening to encourage people, like if they're still feeling the separation between what they think a writer is and the truth of it? Betsy: Well, the answer is very complex, but it’s also very simple. You have to write. There are so many people who say they want to be writers and dream of being writers and have stories inside them, etc, etc. The fact is if you aren't actually writing, whatever form it takes, it's not going to happen. It's a craft and it takes a lot of time and practice. So I always tell people, do you write diaries? Do you keep notebooks? Are you writing blogs? Are you doing Substack? What writing are you actually doing? It doesn't all have to be prose. I wrote screenplays for years. I blogged for years. All of that was in the development of my voice and in my ability to story tell. Then, of course, all the editing that I did, I really learned what goes into making a book. The key thing is simply writing and understanding that all the writing you do is either in practice of the professional writing you might do, or it's just who you are and how you express yourself. Joanna: Well, it's interesting there. You talk there about you have to write and the different types of writing, but, of course —  You were 64 when you wrote your first novel. You've written loads of different things. Tell us about that. There’s this idea that you have to be young and beautiful to do your debut novel, right? The people who seem to get all the press are the young debut writers. So tell us a bit more about that experience. Betsy: When I was in my 20s, if I could have published a book, I'm sure I would have. I did not have it together. I went into publishing really, as I said, sort of as a default. I did have my MFA in poetry, and many of my fellow poets were going off to write and teach. I just didn't have access to any of those opportunities, nor did I think I would be particularly good at it. Fast forward, it was the pandemic. I did have more time on my hands. I had also just come through an extremely traumatic time in my life. My niece and nephew were killed by a drunk driver, then my mom passed away, and then my best friend committed suicide. Those tragedies all happened in the space of four or five months. I was in some sort of shock. I was in deep grief, and I guess I wrote my way out of it. I just sat down one day, opened my laptop and wrote the first words of the book, which are: “Here are the ways I could start this story.” I wrote for seven months, four or five hours a day, really until my hands cramped. I just poured this book out of myself. I don’t think magic happened and I wrote a novel, I do think it is based on 40 years of keeping diaries, blogging, developing my voice. Writing those screenplays really taught me how to write plot. So I think all the writing I did came together in this novel in my mid-60s. I was very fortunate that I was able to get it published. I found a small publisher who was able to say, instead of being a hot, young debut novelist, I was a senior, late bloomer. I had all this experience. We were able to do a bunch of publicity around the fact that I was a literary agent turned novelist. So my age sort of worked for me, both in the experience of writing and the attention I was able to get. Joanna: That's a great way to put it. Obviously those tragedies are awful, and it’s amazing that you managed to write your way out of it, as you said. Just for that, is the book about surviving tragedy? How did those things that happened to you emerge in the writing? Or do you think it was just an entirely different thing? You better tell us the title as well. Betsy: Well, the title is Shred Sisters. It's really a book about two sisters. The older sister has bipolar illness, and the younger sister is the narrator. It's coming-of-age and how she lived under the shadow of this very destructive, and yet charismatic sister. It doesn't involve the tragedies at all, except for the fact that a number of people do die in the book. It is a way, I guess, that I really coped with a lot of grief, but it's a separate story from that. I feel that all of those events are deeply con

How will generative AI change search and book discoverability in the years ahead? How can you make sure your books and your author website can be found in AI tools like ChatGPT? Thomas Umstattd Jr. joins me to discuss Generative Engine Optimisation (GEO) and how it will replace traditional SEO marketing. I first covered this topic in Dec 2023, How Generative Search Will Impact Book Discoverability in the Next Decade. As ever, I was early, but those changes are now starting to happen. Thomas recently covered the topic on his Novel Marketing Podcast on Does ChatGPT Recommend Your Book? This episode is supported by my patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Thomas Umstattd Jr. is the CEO of AuthorMedia.com, as well as an award-winning professional speaker, non-fiction author, and host of the Novel Marketing Podcast and the Christian Publishing Show. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes How authors can benefit from AI optimization Principles authors need to keep in mind as search is changing Different AI models and their capabilities Making your author website LLM-friendly How to utilize Goodreads to improve your GEO The future of AI agents in book buying Staying positive and curious in the ever-changing AI landscape You can find Thomas at AuthorMedia.com. Transcript of Interview with Thomas Umstattd Jr. Joanna: Thomas Umstattd Jr. is the CEO of AuthorMedia.com, as well as an award-winning professional speaker, non-fiction author, and host of the Novel Marketing Podcast and the Christian Publishing Show. So welcome back to the show, Thomas. Thomas: Thanks, Joanna, for having me. Joanna: It's great to have you back. Now, for everyone listening, you were on the show a few years back. So we're going to dive straight into the topic today, which is based around a recent episode on your Novel Marketing Podcast on “AI Optimization For Authors: Does ChatGPT Recommend Your Book?” I was like, yes, I really want to talk about this. Why did you decide to get into this topic now? What did you see in the author community that made you want to help authors see AI differently? Thomas: Well, what triggered this topic was actually the Google I/O Conference, where one of the features they were demoing was the ability to take a picture of a stack of books and then get recommendations on additional books that were like that book. As somebody who spends a lot of time in tech world, books and authors are often the example that the tech people use to demonstrate new capabilities of AI models. Often, unless people listen to your show, that new tech does not actually get translated to the author community. Most authors are not watching the Google IO Conference or even summaries of it. Joanna: Except you and me! Thomas: So I was like, oh, I need to do some tests with this. So I started testing different models to see how they would recommend books. I kind of realized, oh, this is already happening. People are already asking AI all the questions of their life. Google search traffic is way down. People are moving those big questions of their life conversations away from traditional search engines and towards AI interactions. If you can get the AI to recommend your book, you'll be well-positioned for ongoing sales in this new era. If you're holding on to ranking on Google search, or even Amazon search, as your only way of finding customers, sales are going to keep slipping, and you won't understand why. Joanna: It's interesting. I have been using ChatGPT primarily since November '22 when it first came out. I use it instead of Google. So I have started to use Gemini again, but I mainly use ChatGPT. Also on my phone, it's what I use. So what about your personal behavior? Do you use a lot of AI for normal life that you once would have used Google for? Thomas: I do. In fact, AI has boosted my productivity so much that we've been able to launch a new podcast, a whole additional podcast, called Author Update. It is a news podcast once a week, just covering publishing news. So much of the pieces of that, like taking the transcript and turning it into a blog, creating the timestamps for YouTube, creating the thumbnails for YouTube, creating the titles for YouTube. That's all done by AI. Different AI tools that I've built for each one of those pieces that two years ago would have been incredibly time consuming. There would have been no way we could have added yet another show to the mix. Joanna: I didn't know that. Interestingly, I have also brought back my Books and Travel Podcast, which I stopped doing a couple of years ago because it was too much work, and it's not one that's monetized. I also brought it back in the last few months, because I was like, do you know what? I can now do so much of this with AI that it doesn't matter so much. Actually, one of the things with that show which is interesting, is a lot of the times I'm interviewing people with different accents. A lot of the speech to text, the transcription previously, has been very good with American men, but it hasn't been so good with British women or anyone else of any nationality speaking English. Now I find it's all very good. So it's like people who maybe last year might have said, “Oh no, this still isn't not good enough,” it really is now, isn't it, for a lot of use cases? Thomas: Yes, there's a kind of person who tried ChatGPT when it first came out. They tried GPT 3.5, they played around with it for a couple of hours, they weren't impressed, and then they came to a conclusion. The conclusion that they came to was not that this particular tool isn't ready, but instead, the category of AI is no good. What they haven't realized is that so far in 2025 a new model that's the best in the world has come out almost every 10 days. Almost every episode of Author Update we're like, “And there's a new AI model on the top of the benchmarks.” It's like they all take turns, and now they're starting to snipe each other. So Gemini was number one for like two days, and then Anthropic is, like, “Here,” and pushed them off. Joanna: “Here's Claude 4.” Thomas: “You want to be number one. We're going to take that away from you.” If you were to go back and use GPT now, even the free version, it would be dramatically better than that first experience you had. Really where the power is once you start paying for the AI models. Once you're using GPT-4.1 or -4.5, or Gemini 2.5 Pro. I really like Grok for research. I found that Grok's Deep Search functionality is unbelievable. It has real time access to knowledge and real time access to X. So for doing research on basically any topic, Grok has won in every test that I've done. Joanna: Oh, that's interesting. So I use o3. My primary model is ChatGPT o3 for pretty much everything, unless it's just something very basic that I would Google. Then I use Deep Research on ChatGPT with o3, and also Gemini 2.5. So I do use Grok, but only when I'm on X. This is interesting—we're going to come back to search—but interestingly, with all the stuff with the Deep Research, for example. People listening, you get like, a 20- to 30-plus-page report on what you want to research with loads of sources and links, and most of them never, ever surface social media links. Grok on X obviously does, but that's the only one. So I find that really interesting, too. Thomas: Yes. In fact, that was one of the things I researched for my episode on AI optimization. I was curious which social networks affect which AI models, because some social networks affect all of the models, and some social networks have impacts on basically none. TikTok and Bluesky don't touch anything. You can be the biggest deal on TikTok, and none of the AI will know you exist. YouTube influences Gemini. X is exclusively for Grok. Facebook and Instagram supposedly are tied to Llama. Joanna: Who uses Llama?! Thomas: Llama is so bad, it doesn't matter if it's connected to Facebook. Talking to all AI is like talking to a child, but talking to Llamas is like talking to a toddler that hasn't quite figured out how the words work and how the sentences work. You can learn to understand it, but it's like, why bother when all the other AIs are like talking to middle schoolers who can now do research reports and are actually quite smart? Joanna: I was going to say, yes, it depends on the context. Well, let's bring it back. You mentioned the Google IO Conference, and I also went to the overviews of that. Sundar Pichai said a few things. I've just got a quote here. He said, “AI overviews have scaled to over 1.5 billion users in 200 countries, driving over 10% growth in the types of queries that show them.” Sundar Pichai So if people have used Google, I guess in the last six months, really, but a lot more in the last month or so, is if you ask something on google.com and then you will get this AI overview. So you don't necessarily have to click into the article. So given that, I've heard it also called GEO, generative engine optimization, instead of SEO. What are some of the principles that authors need to keep in mind if search is changing this way? Thomas: So one of the fascinating things about AI is that it's very much a last shall be first and the first shall be last technology. So it's taken a lot of things that didn't used to matter very much, and it's making them suddenly matter a whole lot. The two biggest winners of this new era is the author website, which has been kind of declining in popularity, particularly amongst indie authors because most indie authors are all in on Amazon

How can you ‘cast a wider net' and reach more readers with your books? How can you embrace the best of publishing options for your work? JD Barker explains how his publishing business works. In the intro, How Authors Measure Success [Self-Publishing Advice]; Creating through Grief [Go Creative]; Death Valley; Successful Self-Publishing, Fourth Edition; Gothic Cathedrals; AI-Assisted Artisan Author webinar. Today's show is sponsored by ProWritingAid, writing and editing software that goes way beyond just grammar and typo checking. With its detailed reports on how to improve your writing and integration with writing software, ProWritingAid will help you improve your book before you send it to an editor, agent or publisher. Check it out for free or get 15% off the premium edition at www.ProWritingAid.com/joanna This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  J.D. Barker is the New York Times and international bestselling author of thrillers and horror. He co-writes with James Patterson, as well as other authors. He's also the co-host of the Writer’s, Ink Podcast. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Weighing up what is worth licensing, and what is worth doing as an indie author The importance of making connections in the publishing industry Why traditionally published authors are more open towards the indie framework Co-writing with James Patterson and others Writing across different genres and mediums to “cast a wider net” Tips for effectively pitching podcasts Benefits for an advanced author coming to Author Nation You can find J.D. at JDBarker.com. Transcript of Interview with J.D. Barker Joanna: JD Barker is the New York Times and international bestselling author of thrillers and horror. He co-writes with James Patterson, as well as other authors. He's also the co-host of the Writer’s Ink Podcast. So welcome back to the show, JD. JD: Hey, Joanna. It's great to be back. I was looking at the timeline, so like this was pre-COVID, I think, the last time we talked. Joanna: Yes, I know. It's crazy. I also had look. It was 2020, which does seem like another life. So back then, we did talk about your background, so we're just going to jump straight into it today. So the last five years, JD, how has it been like? Give us an overview. Well, not of the last five years, but— What does your business look like now? I almost feel like five years ago you were almost relatively new on the indie author scene as such, but now you've really cemented your position. JD: I was. So let me think, like five years ago, so that was about the same time that I called my agent and said, “I don't want you selling my English rights anymore. I'm going to do it myself.” Joanna: Yes, basically. JD: The publishing professionals, I think they hate me, because I tend to pull the rug out from under them quite a bit. Honestly — I indie published my first novel, and I got a taste of what that was like. For better or worse, that was a deal breaker for me. It's something that's always been in the back of my head, and I weigh it against every contract. At one point, I had a book coming out called A Caller's Game, and I called my agent, and like I just decided I'm going to indie publish it in English, and I'd let her go ahead and sell all the foreign territories like she usually does. I wanted to see how that would play out. Honestly, I liked it a lot because it gave me the freedom and control that I had as an indie to get that title out there. I got the economics benefits of being an indie. So I did that for a couple of different books, but I still ran into one particular problem. You know me well enough, I completely gloss over all the good stuff, and I just focus on the one or two things that aren't working right and that's where I tend to try and come up with some kind of solution. I couldn't get into the big box stores. I was still having trouble getting into airports. I couldn't get into Target or Costco or Walmart. So that's something that weighed on me for a couple of years. I guess about a year and a half ago, I sent my agent a copy of Behind a Closed Door, which was my latest thriller. We sold foreign rights on that almost immediately, and the book was going to auction with the traditional publishers—or not foreign rights, film rights. I got a phone call from a friend of mine that worked at Harper Collins, and she said, “We're about to offer on this book, and when that comes in, you need to turn it down.” I got a similar phone call from somebody over at Random House, and I asked why, and she said, “Well, the editor who wants your book is about to get laid off or about to cut a lot of people.” Then a week or two later, all those industry cuts that we all saw happened. I don't know if you've ever been in a position where you've had a book at a traditional publisher where you lost your editor, but like that book can sit there in limbo forever, depending on your contract. Without somebody to champion it, it may not come out at all. So that really scared me. So I kind of reached back to my corporate days. My last real job I had, I worked in finance, and I got a hold of some of the people that were involved in the purchase of Simon and Schuster at the private equity firm. I started some conversations, and ultimately — I created my own imprint at Simon and Schuster, which is what I'm doing today. So I, basically, get the freedom of being an indie author. I can put out what I want, when I want, but I've got Simon and Schuster as my backbone. So they handle my print sales and distribution. So that's what I'm doing today. Joanna: So you still upload the ebook yourself to KDP, but then you give the print to Simon and Schuster? Or does everything go through them? JD: No. So the way I signed the contract, I've got my own LLC—well, it's an S Corp, I guess, at this point—but it's called Barker Creative. So the contract is actually between Simon and Schuster and Barker Creative. So what that means is, when I have a book, I can pick and choose whether JD Barker is publishing it or Barker Creative is publishing it. If it's a Barker Creative book, it has to go to Simon and Schuster. If it's a JD Barker book, I can put it out on my own. So legally, I basically created the wiggle room that I needed. So I can take that book and I can say, “I'm going to put out ebook on my own. I'm going to do audiobook through somebody else.” I can farm out those pieces. So that's kind of what I've been doing. So I signed a contract with Recorded Books. They handle all of my audiobooks. I just keep ebooks for myself because really there's no point in handing that off to anybody. It's so easy to do. Then I've been doing print through Simon and Schuster. Joanna: So how do you make the decision? You said your biggest problem there was the big box stores, airports, which is why you wanted to do a kind of print deal press. How do you make a decision as to what you then keep as a JD Barker book versus a Barker Creative book? For people listening, where is the line? Because a lot of people, let's face it, won't get the contract offers you do, but they do get offers. So I know people who get offers, maybe for a couple of thousand advance. Some are no advance, but royalties, plus maybe some marketing. A lot of authors listening do get the chance for some kind of deal. Also, audio deals are coming up a lot. How do people weigh up what is worth signing and licensing and what is worth doing indie? JD: I basically look at the book when it's finished, and I decide, what is going to cast the widest net? What is going to cause this to get out in front of the largest group of people and possibly bring in more people into my reading audience? That's kind of my goal at this point. A couple years ago, I was told that my audience was women 45 and over. So I wrote a young adult book, and started roping them in a little bit younger, and I continue to do that. One of the books I've got coming out—do you remember a movie from the 90s called Flatliners? Joanna: Yes, you told me about this, but tell everyone else. JD: Flatliners is one of my all-time favorite movies. It came out in 1990, and it's got this crazy cast. It had Kiefer Sutherland, Julia Roberts, Kevin Bacon, Billy Baldwin, and Oliver Platt, and all of them kind of at the start of their career. So people knew their names, but well before they became the household names that they are today. It's about a group of medical students who kill each other one at a time, and then bring each other back to try and discover if there's any type of afterlife. I love that movie. I honestly still think it holds up today, and it's been a favorite of mine. A few years ago, the guy who wrote it, his name is Peter Filardi, he got attached to one of my other projects. I wrote a prequel to Dracula for Bram Stoker's family, so he got attached as the screenwriter on that with Paramount. We got to talking about Flatliners, and I told him, “Listen, I've got an idea to reboot this franchise.” At the time, he didn't have control of the rights. The studio still had those. So I just kind of planted the seed. A couple of years went by, and then I got a phone call back from him, I guess about a year and a half ago. He said, “Listen, I just got the rights back if you still want to do something.” So ultimately, we ended up writing a novel—which I'm literally finishing the final edits on today—to reboot this franchise. So it's going to come out as a book first, with film later. So we have this project basically

How can creativity be expressed in both writing and music? How can you improve your creativity by being more mindful of your physical body? How can you manage anxiety when speaking or performing? Jennifer Roig-Francoli gives her thoughts in this interview. In the intro, Taylor Swift buys back the rights to her first six albums [The Verge]; Understanding the rules of self-publishing, Becca Syme on the Bookfunnel Podcast; Multiple Income Streams for Authors, Beyond Just Book Sales [Publishing Performance]; Melania Trump's memoir audiobook using her AI voice clone with ElevenLabs, which she is selling direct from her website; my own voice clone AI-narrated thriller, Death Valley; AI narration in publishing [The New Publishing Standard]; The New York Times has struck an AI licensing deal with Amazon [The Verge]. Plus, my Fourth Edition of Successful Self-Publishing; Desecration, a British crime thriller, on special; and my AI-Assisted Artisan Author webinar; The Geography of Belonging and Finding Home [Books and Travel]. Write and format stunning books with Atticus. Create professional print books and eBooks easily with the all-in-one book writing software. Try it out at Atticus.io This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Jennifer Roig-Francoli is an international prize-winning violinist and certified Alexander Technique teacher. She's also a high performance coach and the author of Make Great Music with Ease!: The Secret to Smarter Practice, Confident Performance, and Living a Happier Life. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Creativity in music and writing Timing and readiness when approaching a book How perfectionism can hinder your creative process Tips for performing and public speaking, and tackling anxiety How the mind-body connection relates to both music and writing Dealing with physical pain as a musician or a writer (and in the intro, I recommend DeskBound by Kelly & Juliet Starrett) What is Alexander Technique? Integrating music and writing into a creative business You can find Jennifer at artoffreedom.me. Transcript of Interview with Jennifer Roig-Francoli Joanna: Jennifer Roig-Francoli is an international prize-winning violinist and certified Alexander Technique teacher. She's also a high performance coach and the author of Make Great Music with Ease!: The Secret to Smarter Practice, Confident Performance, and Living a Happier Life. So welcome to the show, Jennifer. Jennifer: Thank you so much for having me. I'm looking forward to talking with you. Joanna: Oh, yes. I'm pretty excited about this. We were just saying before the recording, this is my first podcast that's really around music. I don't know why I've missed it so much after like 15 years of doing the show. Jennifer: Well, I'm honored to be the first. Joanna: Yes, indeed. I am interested because why write a book? I tend to think that people have this primary mode of creativity, and yours is clearly music. Why write a book? (when music is your first mode of expression) Jennifer: I've wanted to write a book for a long time. My dad was an English professor, so my favorite class in school was writing. I used to keep journals. I wrote poetry and stories from the time I was really little. I just always loved writing. It’s also been therapeutic for me as an adult, just writing for myself. So writing a book was a thing I always wanted to do. The main thing was to get my ideas across about, specifically, the work I do with the Alexander Technique, music making, and creativity. I just have a lot of ideas, and I wanted to get them out there. So a book made sense. Joanna: So your dad was in the literature field. Were you also encouraged into music as a child? Again, because your primary method, I guess, is music, so writing was second. Did you do that from childhood? Jennifer: I'm told by my mother that when I was two, I declared that I needed a violin. My parents are both musicians, so it makes sense. They would sit around our living room in the evenings when I was a baby, playing quartets with their friends. I vaguely remember sitting in the rocking chair, listening to them and watching them. So when I was two, I fell in love with a violin. My mom is a cellist, and my dad is a violist, but I liked the violin. When I was four years old, my mother discovered the Suzuki method and got me started. So I've been playing the violin since I was four. Joanna: Yes, wow. It's so interesting, isn't it? I think, clearly, when you were a kid, it was fun for you, and it was all around you. I said to you beforehand that I don't really listen to music. I think part of that is my mum likes silence, so we were never really allowed to have sound around. I'm a very quiet person as well and often wear noise-canceling headphones. So it's so weird to imagine your childhood with all this music. Which then sort of brings me to a question about, if that's your main thing that you do— How did you face the challenges around writing when you're used to doing something so different, something so noisy? Jennifer: Funny, I don't think of it that way at all. To be totally honest, I don't listen to much music myself either. I really enjoy making music even more than listening to it. Yes, it's pretty loud to have a violin right next to your ear. So I don't think of it as something different, in a way. A lot of my work and what I'm most interested in is how we get inspired and how do we take that creative inspiration into ourselves? Like how do we let it flow in the mind, the body, the soul, the whole that we are? How do we take these ideas that we have and then express them? I feel like I have these ideas, whether they are musical ideas or thought ideas, concepts. There are ideas in my mind, and somehow they need to get out. They can be expressed through music or they can be expressed through writing. Since I've always been writing, it was actually very easy for me to start writing this book, when it was the right time. I tried three times to write this book, and the first time I attempted it was maybe 15 years ago. I sat down to write the book one summer on vacation, and I think I probably sat down two or three times to try to write the book and realized I was not ready at all to write this book. My ideas were not ready. They were unformed. It just was really hard. So I left it for more than a decade. Then a few years ago, I got back to it. I felt like it was time. I got further into the process, maybe three or four months. Then life events took over and prevented me from continuing. So I took another break for maybe two years or something before I said, okay, third try's the charm. I'm going to try again, and I was determined to make it work this time. It was actually really easy to write most of the book. It just sort of flowed out of me. It's no different from making music, really. Joanna: So that had been kind of incubating. I think that's interesting. I've had that experience with a couple of my books, particularly one called Writing the Shadow around that darker side of ourselves and expressing that. I’d thought about that for a couple of decades, really. You said the third time you tried again. There will be people listening who may well have put off books or tried to write books. How did you know this time it was going to work? Or did you just start again with hope, and then it started working? When do you know the right time to pick a project back up? Jennifer: Part of the reason I wrote the book, one of them, to be completely honest, is that it fit into my business plan. I run a coaching business for musicians, and it would serve a number of purposes for me from a business perspective to have a book out. For one thing, there are so many people in the world that I feel could benefit from my services and what I teach, and yet so many people in the world can't afford my services. So one reason I wrote the book was to offer something really low cost to a much broader audience so they could benefit from the teachings. It just felt like at this point in time, I knew clearly what I wanted to teach. My system was formulated. I had been teaching it a certain way for a number of years already. I really knew my stuff in a way I didn't before. I went through certain life experiences too along the way that fed into the book. That's why the first time I tried writing it, I was just not ready. It wasn't the right time. Even the second time just didn’t work because of other life events that ended up giving me more material for the actual book when it was the right time. So I can't really say other than that it just fit. All the pieces fit at that time. It was right for my business. It was right in my life. I had gotten to a point in my business, financially, where I felt I could make my book number one for a whole year, which is what I did. I really decided that it would be okay for me to focus mostly on the book for a whole year, and that would mean probably bringing in less income from other sources. It was seeing that I could go through this process for a year and still be okay, and not have to worry too much about working hard on other stuff, if that makes sense. Joanna: I love that you said it was the right time in your business as well. I think what that does too, is that helps you get out of your own head and think about other people. Sometimes that's what we need. You can get lost in so many words, and then when you think, okay, who is my audience, and who am I trying to serve? That also helped you because you knew how this fits with the people you coach, and th

Why is creative control and owning your intellectual property so important for a long-term author career? How can AI tools help you be more creative and amplify your curiosity? Dave Morris talks about his forty-year publishing career and why he's still pushing the boundaries of what he can create. In the intro, Writing Storybundle; Finding your voice and creative confidence [Ask ALLi]; Does ChatGPT recommend your book? [Novel Marketing Podcast]; Google IO expansion of AI search [The Verge]; Sam Altman & Jony Ive IO [The Verge]; Claude 4; my AI-Assisted Artisan Author webinars. Today's show is sponsored by Draft2Digital, self-publishing with support, where you can get free formatting, free distribution to multiple stores, and a host of other benefits. Just go to www.draft2digital.com to get started. This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Dave Morris is an author and comic book writer, as well as a narrative and game designer, with more than 70 books and over 40 years in publishing. He is best known for interactive series such as Dragon Warriors and Fabled Lands. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Keeping your IP for long-term earnings Working on your own projects to maintain creative control Benefits of AI tools for long-series authors AI as a research and brainstorming assistant How creative confidence leads to confidence in using AI tools Using AI to advise on marketing strategies The potential of AI to enhance emotional expression in writing The future of gaming with AI integration You can find Dave at FabledLands.blogspot.com, patreon.com/jewelspider, realdavemorris.substack.com or whispers-beyond.space Transcript of Interview with Dave Morris Joanna: Dave Morris is an author and comic book writer, as well as a narrative and game designer, with more than 70 books and over 40 years in publishing. He is best known for interactive series such as Dragon Warriors and Fabled Lands. So welcome to the show, Dave. Dave: Hi, Jo. Joanna: It's good to have you on. So first up— Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and publishing originally, and how you've managed to stay in it for so long when so many have disappeared. Dave: The introduction was making me feel exhausted, because, yes, it is 40 years. I think the Dragon Warriors is having its 40th anniversary this year. So 41 years I've been publishing. At the start of the 80s, there was kind of a craze for role playing, and those kind of choose your own adventure books, solo role playing. So part of it is kind of a luck factor, but you have to look for those opportunities. All publishers at the time needed people who could do that, and there weren't very many of us that could do words and equations and things, and I got lucky with that. I think the why I've stayed in it is the early choices were whether to join the big series like Dungeons and Dragons, and Fighting Fantasy was a big one in Britain, or to do your own thing. I went with smaller publishers and kept my own IP and kept control of it. I think the difference there is, at first I thought, I wonder if this is a mistake. Like friends were making more and getting bigger checks than I was to start with, but then I noticed I was getting foreign rights checks a few years later that were really beginning to add up. Of course, by keeping the IP, it means I'm still earning from those things 40 years on, because I still control them. Joanna: That's really interesting. That decision, you said that was hard back then. Of course, we have seen in recent years, some of those comic book artists particularly are sort of trying to come back to the big companies saying, well, it's just not fair. It seems a very strong decision to make back then, when being more independent was not really a thing. Dave: Well, maybe I picked that up from comics because I was a huge Marvel comics fan. You know, I was 10, 11, 12, and I was aware of the problems of Jack Kirby, and even Stan Lee. I mean, he was paid well by Marvel, but considering that he's spawned a multi-billion dollar industry, he wasn't paid that much. So maybe I just thought about creative control. I think partly it was just that I like to have creative control. You want to go in and be able to say the cover should look like this, and pick your own artists, and really just feel that it's your work, not somebody else's. So although I have done plenty of hack work as well for other IPs, I think I bring my best game to my own stuff. Joanna: Hack work. That's an interesting phrase. Is that writing for hire, really? Dave: Yes. I mean, I did the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle books, for example. Joanna: That's awesome! Dave: I know, it is. I was a comics fan, so they said, “We want you to do these comics.” This was the kid’s department at what's now Penguin Random, or whatever the hell they're called. I said, “You know, they're not kid’s comics. They're very dark, indie, underground comics.” And they said, “Oh no, they're doing a complete reboot.” I was amazed, because I only knew the very violent original version of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. I enjoyed writing them, and I later discovered I was the only author they trusted to come up with new stories, for some reason. So I ended up doing a bunch of new ones. Which, again, I think if they just said, “Take a TV episode and adapt it,” I wouldn't have been nearly as interested in doing that. Although I did also do Thunderbirds and Stingray books, and that was mainly because I'd been such a huge fan of them when I was a kid that I would have done that for nothing. I didn't tell the publishers that. Joanna: That's brilliant. How do you span all the genres and all the types of books? Because you do game stuff, you do comics, you do book books. So how do you sort of see your projects, in terms of the work you choose to do? Dave: That's a very good question. I actually didn't get into doing comics until about 10 or 12 years ago, and that was only after a games company I was working at had collapsed and a comic just came along. Random House was launching one, and they said, “Do you want to work on it?” I actually discovered I really enjoyed writing comics, which shouldn't have been a surprise, but I don't know why I'd left it so long. I think one of the things I probably bring is I always think that there's the element of writing, but because I'm a game designer as well — There's an element to which — I'm not just trying to create stories, but systems that create stories. I'm very interested in the world building and the means of having emergent narratives. I saw an interview with Robert Harris, and he was talking about how he did all the research for his historical books, and he said 80% or 90% of it the reader never gets to see. Of course, if you're writing a game, all the law might eventually become relevant, so you kind of have to put all that attention in. You can't just think, “Well, they won't go around the back of the houses, so I can have a flat piece of plywood there.” You have to allow for the possibility that the story could go anywhere. I think that's how I've come at stories, basically. Joanna: I love that. Systems that create stories. As you said that, I was thinking this is something that authors of series really need. I mean, like I'm looking at book 14 in my ARKANE series, and I have lots of ideas, but I feel like this system that can create stories. Would you give some tips for people who want to write long series? How would your lessons play into that? Dave: Well, I think they're very lucky to be alive in the era of AI. I mean, I have that all the time. The VulcanVerse series, which I finished about a year ago, was three quarters of a million words long, and it was one of these choose your own adventure types. Painting the continuity without AI—I mean, at that time, there wasn't a lot—but NotebookLM now would make that so much easier. Somebody asked me a question about the VulcanVerse books, where previously I would have had to go— I got a French publisher said, “Is there a name for this mountain range?” I realized, looking for something that may not exist in the books, that's an open ended problem that could take all afternoon, right? But NotebookLM was able to tell me, “No, you never gave a name for those.” When I presented it to ChatGPT, it said, “Would you like me to come up with some names based on the names in the area that you've already named?” So those things, I think they're really helpful because who wants to just wade through the text over and over again, looking for one specific detail of continuity? It's like having a bible. Like if we do a game, we used to have to have the game bible, and for one massively multiplayer game, the bible was about 250 pages long. It had everything. The physics of the world, the history of the world, the social cultures, how the language worked, how it's pronounced. Literally, everything that any designer on the team would need to access. Again, that now can just be put up effectively into an AI, and you can interrogate the AI for it. So those are very useful, I think. Joanna: Well, then we'll get into it then because, of course, the other side of that you said, “We're lucky to be alive in an era of AI.” I feel the same way, but some people would say, “Yes, but Dave, that means you don't have to write that anymore. Like, why do we need a Dave Morris when I can use ChatGPT to write a 250 page world bible?” How are you dealing with AI, as someone who has a degree in physics an

How can you embrace the process of change in life and author business, especially in an era of AI? How can you take control of what's possible and be more comfortable with uncertainty? How can you develop a career portfolio that future proofs you in changing times? April Rinne shares her insights into how we can flux. In the intro, KDP royalty changes and printing costs; The Pre-Launch Checklist [Draft2Digital]; Audible opens AI narration to some traditional publishers [Publishing Perspectives]; US Copyright Office Fair Use; Plus, join me for a live webinar on The AI-Assisted Artisan Author; Signing Death Valley at BookVault; Successful Self-Publishing 4th Edition; Egypt with Luke Richardson on Books and Travel. This podcast is sponsored by Kobo Writing Life, which helps authors self-publish and reach readers in global markets through the Kobo eco-system. You can also subscribe to the Kobo Writing Life podcast for interviews with successful indie authors. This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  April Rinne is a futurist, professional speaker, lawyer, and the international bestselling author of Flux: 8 Superpowers for Thriving in Constant Change. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes The human dimension of change The “flux mindset” — how individuals relate to and show up for change Changes we choose vs. those we don't control Immediate changes vs. slower societal shifts The benefits of being proactive with change Uncertainty that comes with AI and technology developments The concept of the portfolio career — more resources from April here. You can find April at AprilRinne.com or FluxMindset.com. Transcript of Interview with April Rinne Joanna: April Rinne is a futurist, professional speaker, lawyer, and the international bestselling author of Flux: 8 Superpowers for Thriving in Constant Change. So welcome to the show, April. April: Thank you so much, Jo. I'm delighted to be here. Joanna: I'm so excited to talk about this, but first up, just— Tell us a bit more about you and why you decided to write a book on this topic when you were already reaching so many people with your message. April: It's quite interesting because I think a lot of people today do know me as a futurist, trained as a lawyer, business strategy, all of that. We can have that conversation around the need I was seeing in the business world around, frankly, just how bad humans are at change and uncertainty and the unknown. Just to be clear, this predates the pandemic by a long shot. So I actually started germinating the book, I would say, in about 2014. It was like a long time in coming, and the thesis continued to grow and deepen. Obviously, when the pandemic hit, people are like, “Oh, flux. Yes, world is in flux. I don't know what to do.” So since 2020, there's been a real zeitgeist around it, but for me, it goes much, much, much deeper and much further back in history. So one piece is, just in the business world, in the work I was doing, how fraught people's relationship with change is. Also, my entire career has been global. So I would work in different cultures, with different kinds of organizations, in different settings. I noticed this is a very universal issue as well. It's not as though one place or one people is better at change or worse at change. All humans are really good at some kinds of changes and really not so good at others. So there was a cultural component. I really love getting into the cultures of change and what we can learn from one another, and the fact that everyone has something to contribute to this conversation, and everyone has something to learn. So there was that piece as well. Then really, the real genesis—and I realize I'm getting pretty personal pretty fast, and we've just started this conversation, but I do want to kind of put it all out there. For many years, I didn't share much of my personal story, not that I didn't want to talk about it. I was always an open book about it personally, but you have those filters between who am I professionally and who am I personally, and what parts of me do I show to what people, and all of that. The fact is that my real interest in what do you do when you don't know what to do, and what do you do when your entire world is thrown in flux, is deeply, deeply personal. So if I think, like, how did I get into writing a book? This goes back more than 25 years. My first really big experience with change and uncertainty happened when I was 20, and I was at university, and I got the phone call that no one ever wants to get or expects to get, which was that both of my parents had died in a car crash. Imagine? Like, there's my world totally flipped upside down. I was actually overseas. I was in the UK, and I got this phone call. Everything changed and everything was uncertain. My family, my sense of self, my support system, my ideas about my career. 20 is a very interesting age. I was old enough to know how to care for myself, day to day at university and whatnot, but really had no clue what my greater connection was to the world, if you will. So I put all of that out there because had you asked me when I was 20, would I write a book about change and uncertainty? I would have said, of course not. I just need to survive. It wasn't something that I was conscious of at the time, but it was absolutely where this journey began and where the process to ultimately write this book, and the research I did, and the perspective I have started. Not just what I can contribute to the book, but the kinds of people and situations and changes that I can really relate to and hold space for and guide conversations around, that part. Yes, the business part is important, the leadership, all of that. This personal piece is really deeply important to me as well. I love the ways in which Flux can reach a range of people and a range of different situations. Joanna: I love that, and I think this is so important. As writers, there'll be people listening who write nonfiction, and bringing this personal aspect into nonfiction is so important. ChatGPT can write a book on change, but no one can write YOUR book on change and flux. Then your personal experience, I mean, obviously terrible and awful situation, but you have grown from that and help people every day. I did want to ask specifically here, because the word “flux”, and you talk about, we need to learn how to flux in a world in flux, and you use it kind of as a verb as well. Your parents, that situation that happened, that was like an immediate, you have to change, you have to adapt right now. Whereas I feel like what a lot of people feel at the moment in the world is almost like a slow train crash. These changes that we see coming and that are happening, but they're not that immediate phone call. What are the different kinds of flux and change, and how can we learn how to flux? April: Yes, I love this, Jo. This is wonderful. Also, just as a big picture—not caveat, but framing—I realize that my story, I mean, it's tragic, it's a bit extreme, it's mine. I wouldn't talk about it if I didn't really welcome having conversations about it. What I have found, and just as a little context going back to what we're talking about earlier, is that while I had that trepidation about, like, “What will people think of me if I share this? I'm supposed to be the business person,” whatever. Guess what? So I say this for fiction and nonfiction writers, the moment I shared that story, it was like the doors blew off. People were like, that's what we want to talk about. Because, guess what? That's what affects our ability to show up at work and in business. It's not about what do we do, it's how are we relating to this? It's fascinating, because for me, from that point forward, it's all been about the human dimension of change. Not the change management process or framework or checklist, but like, how are we showing up for this? So that's a really good segue to this question as well. I mean, I have to say, honestly, there are more filters on change and ways that we can parse through the different kinds of change and so forth, than even this conversation will allow for. It gets broad and deep really fast, but let me share a couple different ways we might see change, a couple things I found extremely helpful for most people. So you are absolutely right that I hear from people pretty much every day, “I love change. It's amazing.” “I hate change. It's horrible.” You know, all of this. I have heard from a lot of people in recent years around—you know, look at the pandemic. Look at how much we changed, look at how much we adapted and grew and what we knew. I always have to give the caveat of, yes, because our backs were against the wall and we were forced to change. It was a global health crisis. We had no choice. Of course, we changed. Guess what? After the immediate emergency and aftermath, did we regress in some of those habits? Did we kind of forget what we learned? You bet. Humans are great at change or great at adaptation when it's a life or death situation. We're not that good at opting into changes, even ones we know would be good for us, because we have this preference for stasis. We have this preference for like, well, if I'm still alive, things should be okay. I don't want to create difficulty for myself. I don't want to do the work. I don't want to make myself uncomfortable. Yet, guess what? In times of—and I'm not going to call it peace, I'm not going to call it stasis—but as you described —  When we can see chan

What can prose writers learn from poets about language, line breaks, and punctuation? How can we help people engage with our work in different ways? Abi Pollokoff talks about her advice from poetry. In the intro, how to reframe success as a writer [Ink in Your Veins]; How I Write Podcast with Dean Koontz; Direct selling [SelfPublishing Advice]; Successful Self-Publishing 4th Edition; ElevenReader publishing. This episode is sponsored by Publisher Rocket, which will help you get your book in front of more Amazon readers so you can spend less time marketing and more time writing. I use Publisher Rocket for researching book titles, categories, and keywords — for new books and for updating my backlist. Check it out at www.PublisherRocket.com This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Abi Pollokoff is an award-winning poet, editor, and book artist. Her debut poetry collection is night myths • • before the body. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes What makes a good poem? Balancing academic and fun elements in poetry Judging poetry on its purpose and impact, rather than on personal tastes Relevance of poetry techniques in prose writing The significance of punctuation in both poetry and prose The importance of page layout in poetry Tips for performance and spoken word poetry Creating and marketing a poetry collection Commercial realities and opportunities for poets Find out more about Abi at AbiPollokoff.com or on Instagram @AbiPollokoff. Transcript of Interview with Abi Pollokoff Joanna: Abi Pollokoff is an award-winning poet, editor, and book artist. Her debut poetry collection is night myths • • before the body. So welcome to the show, Abi. Abi: Thank you so much, Jo. I'm so excited to be here. Joanna: Yes. So lots to talk about today, but first up— Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing poetry, as well as making it part of your job, as well as your passion. Abi: In terms of how I got started, really, I started with books. I always loved reading, and reading is such a big part of living a literary life for me. I read poetry when I was young, you know, Dr Seuss, Shel Silverstein. So I found myself reading language and story that just had fun in it. I had always loved creative writing assignments in school, and I connected with poems. I think when I really first found my way into my current understanding and relationship to poetry was in my last year of university. I studied at Tulane University in New Orleans, and in my last year, I took a series of classes that coalesced all around the same time period of study. So I was taking a class on the French avant-garde movements of the first half of the 1900s. We were reading a lot of Dada and Surrealism. At the same time, I was taking a poetry workshop from the poet Andy Stallings, and we used a primary course text that covered around the same time period. So I was immersed in this area of literature that was concerned with the possibilities of language, of language without self-censorship, of linguistic freedom. It was a time when I really needed that permission to play and to explore and to trust myself. So I gave myself that permission, and it's transformed where I am today. In terms of my job, I think I really believe deeply in the value of reciprocity. So I knew that if I wanted to have a book in the world one day to take up space on a shelf or in a mind, I wanted to be able to make space for other books to exist and for other writers to see their names in print. I just wanted to give back into the community, as well as being a part of it. Joanna: Oh, so much there. I'm really interested in this juxtaposition there of this academic side of poetry, and you studying it and studying literature. Then you also mentioned the word “fun,” which I thought was interesting, and also permission, and trying to get rid of that self-censorship. I feel like poetry, in particular, has a real difficulty with academic snobbery around what is an acceptable poem. So I wondered, I mean, I know it's a matter of opinion, but— What makes a good poem? How do you balance the academic side with the fun side and letting loose? Abi: I'm so grateful for this question because I think you're right. I feel like for such a long time, Poetry with a capital P had very specific expectations and a very specific origin story. I don't think that an academic poem is the only kind of a good poem. Of course, everyone's allowed to have taste and preference. One person might like chocolate ice cream and one person might like vanilla, and each flavor is equally valid. For me, I believe — A good poem is one that makes you feel something, full stop. In your body, a good poem is one that comes alive off the page. So that can be a sonnet with the perfect volta, that turns, that twists just the perfect amount and it gives your knees a little quiver. It can also be a five line meditation on Instagram that makes your heart stop just for a moment. Or a slam poem that just touches your pulse and makes it beat a little bit faster. So I think, for me, that breaking out of an academic understanding of poetry is so important to acknowledge the diversity, the cultural diversity, and all of the different possibilities that make poetry beautiful and accessible and exciting for readers who themselves have varying tastes and preferences. Joanna: How do you manage that as an editor, and kind of, like you said, making space for other writers? It's very hard to be an editor, in general, but I would think with poetry, it would be even harder. Of course, like you said about taste, you're going to be reading a lot in your work that is not to your taste. I guess this is the thing— How do you judge what makes a good poem if it's not to your taste? Abi: That's a great question. I think if I were thinking of this from an editor's perspective, when I'm approaching a poem as an editor, for me, the goal is to see if the poem is accomplishing its goals, rather than my goals. So I try to actually take my taste out of it and think, well, what is the poem trying to do? Is it trying to deliver an image? Is it trying to create a metaphor or play with a specific form? If it's part of a formal lineage, how is it accomplishing that? Think about it from the goal of the poem and the reader's experience of the poem, rather than whether I like it or not, because like can be so subjective from person to person. So if I'm looking at it as an editor, I'm thinking about, what is the poem itself trying to do? What is the poem trying to tell me, and is it successful? If we're playing with an image, does the image land in the ways that it needs to? If you're playing with form, and you're breaking a form, what is the impact of that formal break? How does that change the meaning of the overall message of the poem? So if you're a reader out there who is trying to experience poetry, but maybe not sure of what to make of it, I would say almost take yourself out of the equation. Certainly consider whether you like the language, whether you like how it feels, the rhythm, but also think about, well —  What is the poem trying to do? What is the poem trying to tell me? See if that gives it the space to do that. Joanna: I just want to mention that we can hear your lovely cat in the background with the little bell. So I just thought I'd point that out to the listeners. I'm a cat person, so totally understanding. I just wanted to point that out. Abi: That little bell is a brand new cat to my home, and he is exploring today. Joanna: I love it. It's a nice little backdrop. Well, let's talk about this because a lot of people—I mean, I wrote some poetry. I even had a poem published back in the day, but mainly in my younger years of angst. Like you say, about university and those teenage years, lots of very bad poetry, but it did what it needed to do at the time. Now, I and most of the listeners, we write prose. What elements from poetry can be useful for writers of fiction, nonfiction, memoir, all of that? Abi: I love this question because I feel like prose and poetry are both playing with language. Whether you're writing fiction, or whether you're writing nonfiction, or whether you're writing poems, you're using language to communicate something. Whether it's a story, or a feeling, or a moment, or a scene, those tools appear in all genres. So I would really think about, for prose readers and prose listeners who are out there but interested in what poetry can do, I think a really interesting tool that you might want to pay attention to or focus on is the line break. The line break in a poem offers breath, and it gives breath and space and pivot. It gives the opportunity for a change in a poem. So even if you're writing in a prose sentence, you too have moments where you can think about, what is this pause or this break doing? So in prose, you can do that with commas, you can do that with em dashes. You can think about how one sentence pivots from one to the next, or how a paragraph evolves from one to the next. In a poem, you have that too, it's just in a micro level. So thinking about, how does the line break activate thought? How does punctuation activate thought and change what the reader is experiencing? You might be able to expand that onto the macro level in a prose piece and see if those tools can kind of go back and forth across the genres. Joanna: Yes, line breaks are really interesting. Again, coming back to literature, I think older literature has a lot to answer for with huge, dense paragraphs with no l

How can you explore the edges of your creativity to find your next becoming? How can you turn the evolution of your life into art? Pia Leichter talks about her creative courage, different ways to rest, and intuitive book marketing in this interview. In the intro, Lessons from Six Years Writing Full-time [Sacha Black]; Reflections on big shifts in life, creativity, and mindset; Spotify Transitions Select Audiobook Distribution Services to INaudio [FindawayVoices]; Death Valley fulfilment; and Successful Self-Publishing Fourth Edition; Writing memoir and non-fiction — I'm on the Writers Ink Podcast; plus Lindisfarne on Books and Travel. Plus, AI can be used in films that could win Oscars [The Week]; and Executive Order to advance artificial intelligence education in the USA [White House]. Today's show is sponsored by ProWritingAid, writing and editing software that goes way beyond just grammar and typo checking. With its detailed reports on how to improve your writing and integration with writing software, ProWritingAid will help you improve your book before you send it to an editor, agent or publisher. Check it out for free or get 15% off the premium edition at www.ProWritingAid.com/joanna This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Pia Leichter is an award-winning creative director and coach, founder of the Kollektiv Studio, and the author of Welcome to the Creative Club: Make Life Your Biggest Art Project. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes What does a creative director do? Overcoming the fear of writing a book How to take control and not let life just happen Tapping into your next becoming Type 1 fun vs. type 2 fun The necessity of rest for creativity Marrying artistic expression and commercial objectives Changing the scarcity script around books and money You can find Pia at kollektiv.studio. Transcript of Interview with Pia Leichter Joanna: Pia Leichter is an award-winning creative director and coach, founder of the Kollektiv Studio and the author of Welcome to the Creative Club: Make Life Your Biggest Art Project. So welcome to the show, Pia. Pia: Thanks so much, Jo, for having me on. I'm excited to be here. Joanna: Oh, yes. So first up, tell us a bit more about you. What is a creative director, anyway? What part does writing play in your business? Pia: A creative director typically can work in different creative fields, such as advertising, film, fashion, you name it. I came from the world of marketing and advertising, so in that landscape, a creative director oversees the creative vision for different brands and different projects in the studio. They marry artistic expression with commercial objectives. They also manage a creative team and kind of blends magic and logic, strategy and creativity, to create an impact in our clients’ lives and the lives of their consumers. Joanna: That sounds pretty cool. Pia: It was pretty cool. It was good. It was really good. It's where I spent well over a decade. So it was very rewarding work. I mean, as a creative director, at least in that world, you can have either a design background or a writing background. So I was like the copywriting background. Joanna: Okay, and what is it you do now then? Pia: Now I work as a creative partner, working with— Well, I think the simplest way of putting it is, I help people create. I help people create brands, businesses, dreams, art, what they're being called to create. People who do things differently to make a difference, those are generally the people I work with. I call it sort of a creative midwife. So I help people at different sticky junctures in life, often when we're at this creative evolution point, when what we used to create was successful wonderful, whether it's a business or a creative venture, but it's just not floating our boat anymore. We're just being called to do something different, and that can be both thrilling and terrifying at the same time, because it's like —  What is going to come next? What is my next becoming? What is my next creation? I often partner with creatives that are at that point. Then what's great about it is I have different tools at my disposal. I'm also a certified coach, so I bring together coaching and creativity in the form of narrative development, storytelling, brand strategy, to actually help bring whatever it is they're looking to bring to life into the world. So I get to combine both of those things, depending on where people are in their journey. Joanna: Why this book, then? Because it sounds like you've got lots of different strands to your business and your creative life. Why write this book? What part does that play? Pia: That's a fantastic question. When I left my agency, the last agency I worked for, I think it was 2021, my mother passed away suddenly. She gave me the passing gift of courage and a reminder that this life is finite and we just got one, as far as we know. I had been flirting with the idea of channeling my creativity into building my own business for a long time, but I was comfortable. Things were good, good enough. Good enough. So I think I was scared too, of like what would that next thing be? What would I even do? How would I survive? What does it look like? So that kind of kept me stuck, speaking of creative evolutions. So when she passed, it was like, hey, what am I waiting for? If it's not now, then when? So I left that job, and I launched Kollektiv Studio. That was an epiphany moment for me, like, wow, I don't just get to create other people's dreams, I get to create my own. Then from there, it was just a wild and wonderful and weird journey into entrepreneurship. Then the second epiphany with the book came from getting a call from my hybrid publisher, the founder, also great salesman and great writer. He asked, you know, have you ever thought of writing a book? I believe everyone has a book in them, but I definitely have thought about it. I had a conversation with him, and he shared a stat like, 90-something percent of people that say no now to writing a book will actually never write that book because if not now, when? So I had my second big light bulb moment of, “Wow, I don't only get to channel my creativity into commercial endeavors. I actually get to channel it just to make art, to make things, to write a book that feels important or meaningful to me.” A whole new path opened up to me. So that's what led me to write the book, and I'm really glad I did. It was a really transformative process. It took me places I never thought I would go, I couldn't even imagine going. That wasn't necessarily the intention, but it was definitely a growth opportunity, and still continues to be. Joanna: Yes, because it's definitely a combination of self-help and memoir. I've also written a memoir, Pilgrimage, and it was also one of the, I guess, hardest books that I've written, and transformative, as you say. For people who feel like they want to write something so personal, but they're holding back because it is work in many ways, and it's a journey, and as you say, transformative— How can you encourage people to write their book? How can they get over the fear of everything that could happen because of it, both internally and externally? Pia: Well, asking a really powerful question is, what happens if I don't write it? What does life look like? What then? What happens if I don't write it today, or in a year, or three years? It could be writing a book, and it could also just be doing that thing that's really calling you. Then what? Then you keep doing exactly what you're doing. At some point, the desire to create that book, to write that book, to create whatever that thing might be, becomes stronger than the fear. That would be one thing. The second thing is remembering that you don't have to do it alone. I think what held me back was this thought, this myth of the lone genius writer in a cabin in the woods. Creating it all and their typewriter, and it's just all of the words just flowing out. I thought, oh my gosh, I don't know if I'm going to be able to just do that, like just spit out a book. It turns out, just like creativity is collaboration, I didn't have to. There are wonderful editors and people along the way that help us create a book, create anything. We don't have to do it alone, and we often don't do it alone. So there's that. Then the third thing that helped me was remembering that —  We all have a hidden expiration date. Nothing's guaranteed. So we got this one life, we might as well live it in the way that feels most fulfilling, and whatever makes you feel most alive. Often, what makes at least me feel most alive is also a little frightening but thrilling. I feel like, gosh, I'm doing it, I'm here, I'm living this thing. That feels really important. So those are three potential motivators for starting to write something deeply personal or vulnerable to you. Joanna: I guess another reason is kind of taking control of things, looking back and kind of taking control of the narrative. As you say, you work with people in the narrative coaching side. In the book, there was a line that said, “I used to think life was happening to me.”  I feel like a lot of people feel that right now. There's some big political things going on, big historical things. There's AI going on. It feels like history is happening to us. So if people are feeling that— How can people take control and not just let life happen? Pia: Well, it's remembering that we're always at choice. Even when it might not feel like we have a choice in the direction of our lives,

How can you implement ‘See, Do, Repeat' in your writing and author business? How can you embrace optimism as a creative entrepreneur and move past fear of judgment to publish your book? Dr Rebecca White shares her journey and tips. In the intro, Short form audio opportunities and tips [Self Publishing Advice]; Wiley's guidelines for AI usage; Collective licensing for UK authors [The Guardian]; Entrepreneurship and writing, I'm on The En Factor Podcast; Plus, Successful Self-Publishing Fourth Edition on pre-order, and I’m on the El Camino de Santiago Pilgrim Podcast talking about my walk along the Portuguese coastal route. Today's show is sponsored by Draft2Digital, self-publishing with support, where you can get free formatting, free distribution to multiple stores, and a host of other benefits. Just go to www.draft2digital.com to get started. This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Dr. Rebecca White is an award-winning entrepreneur, executive board member, professor, and the author of See, Do, Repeat: The Practice of Entrepreneurship. She's also the host of the En Factor Podcast. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Rebecca's entrepreneurial journey and background Actionable steps to embrace the entrepreneurial mindset The “See, Do, Repeat” framework Applying the “See, Do, Repeat” framework to author entrepreneurship The role of optimism in entrepreneurship Transitioning from academic writing to popular books Overcoming fear of judgement by peers You can find Rebecca at DrRebeccaWhite.com. Transcript of Interview with Dr. Rebecca White Joanna: Dr. Rebecca White is an award-winning entrepreneur, executive board member, professor, and the author of See, Do, Repeat: The Practice of Entrepreneurship. She's also the host of the En Factor Podcast. So welcome to the show, Rebecca. Rebecca: Thank you, Joanna. I am honored to be here. I love your podcast, and I'm excited. I am reading your book Pilgrimage, and I just love everything that you've done. So it's really great to be here and have this conversation today. Joanna: Oh, well, thanks so much. So first up— Tell us a bit more about you and what drives your interest in entrepreneurship. Rebecca: I grew up in this small town in West Virginia. I don't know if you've ever been there, but it's quite rural. I always had these dreams and interests of doing other things rather than being in a small town. I had a wonderful mother. Her name was Betty White. So great name, maybe not the Betty White most people think of. She had an entrepreneurial mindset back before we even had the words to put with it, and so I learned about this whole mindset from her as a child. It's really driven everything I've done. It's kind of like it grabbed me, and I had to hold on. So I've really applied an entrepreneurial mindset in everything that I've done, from being an educator to a book author to a podcaster to even a corporate board member. You mentioned all those slashes in my career, I think that's part of being an entrepreneur as well, this whole idea that there's always something new and a new opportunity to explore. So it's really just been a part of my life, and everything that I've done, I think because I learned it from her. Joanna: That's cool. When you said West Virginia, I just had that song playing, “Take Me Home, Country Road.” Rebecca: Yes, everybody knows that. Joanna: Yes, that's the only thing. I've never been there, but that's what it brought to mind, which was quite funny. So you were in the small town and you had this mindset, but how did you get out of the small town and get into work? How did you make it out of there? I know some people listening, it might just be a life situation they're trapped in, or a job. Many people are in a job, and they might want to be more entrepreneurial, but they didn't have the mindset that your mom gave you. How did you get out of that small town? How can other people get out if they feel trapped? Rebecca: That's a really great question. For me, it was education, and I just kept going. My parents valued education. My mom was very curious, and she was way ahead of her time, the way she approached life and saw things. She had her own business. She was a florist. When I graduated with my undergraduate degree, she invited me to come back and take over the business, and that's like the last thing I wanted to do. I had worked in that business all my years growing up. It was great for her. It was a great opportunity for our family. It afforded my brother and I the opportunity to get an education. Once I left and went to college—and I didn't go that far away at first—but once I went to college, I just knew that I wasn't going to go back. There wasn't a lot there, and fortunately, my parents didn't expect it. So for me, I was young, and so it was through taking my first job and then going back to school. There's all kinds of stories in there that I could share, but really— It was just taking one step at a time and having parents that supported that. At a young age, I just had sort of a wanderlust, I guess. I felt like there were always opportunities out there that I wanted to check out and try. I also got married in the process, later divorced. I went to graduate school, I got my masters, and then I got a job teaching with my masters and found that I did well with that. So I went back to get a doctorate, and after I got my doctorate, I accepted a teaching position in Cincinnati, Ohio. I was actually educated in Virginia at Virginia Tech, and then went to Cincinnati, Ohio. By this time, I had two small children and I was divorced. It was quite a challenging time for me. I managed to write a dissertation with two small children as a single parent, it wasn't easy. Then I took that job in Cincinnati and started building programs and really became part of a movement in entrepreneurship education. Actually, my PhD is not in entrepreneurship, but that's because they really didn't have that kind of degree back then. So I got a PhD in strategic management, and took my first job. There weren't any entrepreneurship courses offered at that time. So I was very fortunate, I had a dean at the time that was very supportive and allowed me to pursue this interest in offering an entrepreneurship course. We offered a course, and it was something the university had never offered, so I had to create it. I explored the field, the discipline, the few people that were out there doing this. I did my research and created this course. Then we raised money. So just like any entrepreneurial adventure, we had to raise enough money to start a program. So I went through all the steps, really, of a startup to build an entrepreneurship program at this university in Cincinnati, Ohio. In doing so, I really kind of launched my career as sort of the second tier pioneering group in entrepreneurship education. Since then, I've just had so many opportunities to work with programs and work with students around the world in this space of entrepreneurship education. So really it was education that, for me—it's not for everybody—but for me, it was the way that I was able to get out and build this career. Joanna: If you don't mind, you referred a few times to the past— Can you tell people how old you are so that they get some sense of how long this period has been? Rebecca: Yes, I'm in my 60s now. So I've been teaching and doing this entrepreneurship gig for almost four decades. It's been a long time. What I thought by now, Jo, would be that I would be retired, or at least close to retiring, but the opportunities just still come along, and they keep getting bigger, it seems like. Joanna: Also, I wonder whether entrepreneurs ever retire! Rebecca: I don't think so. Joanna: No, exactly. You want to start something else, right? Let's get into the book. What is the “See, Do, Repeat” framework, and why is it useful for authors to consider? Rebecca: Teaching all those years as an entrepreneur, I saw a lot of change in our field. So when I first started teaching, it was all about starting a business. In fact, in the earliest years, it was more about small business. Everything was taking what we had studied in business school, which was primarily around corporate business, and applying it in a miniature way, if you will. It really didn't work, and so the field started to develop its own body of literature and research around entrepreneurship. That direction was really interesting because although it started in this whole area of creating new companies and running small businesses, it really morphed, I would say, into a focus on the mindset of entrepreneurship and how it applies in almost virtually any context. I started out my description of my background by just saying that I've applied it everywhere, and so that became really interesting to me. I've always been fascinated by the way people think and by the stories. You mentioned my podcast, and it's why I love my podcast. I just love to ask people lots of questions and find out about them and the way they think. So this whole book is really, I would say, 20 years of research that I had been doing trying to understand what this entrepreneurial mindset was. We talked about it a lot, but it didn't have a whole lot of definition. People always seemed to know it when they saw it, but they didn't really know exactly how to describe it. Entrepreneurship education became much more than just starting a business. It's applying it in so many other contexts. We've had students come through that have been inte

How can you shift your writing and publishing process to focus on YouTube and podcasting as a primary audiobook focus? How can you use AI tools to help you create, publish, and translate your books? Derek Slaton goes into his indie author process. Inspired by Derek, you can now find my audiobooks on YouTube: Books for Authors on YouTube @thecreativepenn; and my fiction, short stories, and memoir on YouTube @jfpennauthor. In the intro, Spotify has expanded audiobooks into Germany, Austria. Switzerland and Liechtenstein, and Publisher Rocket has introduced more country stores; Second Edition of The Business of Being a Writer by Jane Friedman; T. Thorn Coyle on the MidList Indie Author [Wish I’d Known Then Podcast]; What if AI replaces me? [Claire Taylor What If Podcast]; plus, my Successful Self-Publishing Fourth Edition is underway, coming June/July! This podcast is sponsored by Kobo Writing Life, which helps authors self-publish and reach readers in global markets through the Kobo eco-system. You can also subscribe to the Kobo Writing Life podcast for interviews with successful indie authors. This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Derek Slaton is the author of the Dead America epic zombie series, with more than 100 books in the main series and many more spin-off stories. I heard Derek on the Brave New Bookshelf Podcast and wanted to ask him some more questions. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Zombie book tropes and settings Utilizing AI audio tools to efficiently output audiobooks Finding keywords and creating thumbnails for YouTube audiobooks Manualling adding ads to monetize your audiobook on YouTube YouTube audience vs. Audible audience Publishing audiobooks on podcast platforms Using AI tools to overcome the cost barrier of production You can find Derek at his YouTube Channel @DerekSlatonHorrorAuthor. Transcript of Interview with Derek Slaton Joanna: Derek Slaton is the author of the Dead America epic zombie series, with more than 100 books in the main series and many more spin-off stories. So welcome to the show, Derek. Derek: Thank you. It's good to be here. Joanna: I'm excited to talk to you, but first up— Tell us a bit more about you, and how you got into writing, and why you love zombies so much. Derek: So I started writing many, many years ago. When I was in high school, I rented Dawn of the Dead on VHS, and the movie itself didn't really scare me, but it was when I went to bed that night and started thinking about, “Hey, what would I do in a zombie apocalypse?” It was like a light switch was flipped. So it's like I had to start writing down what I would do, and over the years and decades, it just sort of grew from there. I used to be a photographer. I was a concert photographer traveling the country with bands, and then I moved over to commercial real estate. When I was on the road, I would have my laptop so I would just write. Over about four or five years, I built it up enough that I could go full time. I went full time with it in January of '24, so I'm a little more than a year into it. Joanna: Brilliant. Then I want to come back on the zombie books, the tropes of the zombie books. So I read some zombie, like Jonathan Maberry. I'm sure you've read some of Jonathan Mabery's stuff, but he says, “It's not about the monsters, it's about the people who fight the monsters.” I wondered if you could talk about the tropes of zombie books and why you just have an unending number of zombie stories in you?! Derek: The great thing about the zombie apocalypse, is that it's happening to everybody everywhere, and everybody has their own story. So there's a million stories that can be told in the zombie apocalypse. It's not just the strong military type fighting. It's the waitress having to deal with zombified customers, and the high school students having to deal with classmates, and just on down the line. There's just so many different scenarios. I'm three and a half million words into my series, and I still have another hundred stories plotted out that aren't really repeats of what I've already done. Joanna: So you're writing about America, but obviously it's very, very big. Are you writing about places you've been to or you know yourself? Or are you putting in different places? Because place makes a difference, doesn't it? Like it's different whether you're in the Florida Everglades versus up in the mountains? Derek: It's a combination. I have been all over, but a lot of the places I haven't been, Google Maps of all things, has really helped me out. I'll look at the town, and then I'll drop myself into street view and just kind of walk around the area and see what my characters would be seeing and write it from that perspective. Also it comes directly from places I've been. I had to make the drive from El Paso back to San Antonio, which is about nine straight hours of driving through nothing. That spawned the idea for the “El Paso: Creeping Death” series, just a million zombies marching towards them. So it's been a nice mixture of both, and just about every single story has been set in America. I have done one story set in London that's only on YouTube at the moment, but it'll eventually be released in print. Something I want to explore more as the series goes on is how it's impacting other countries around the world. Joanna: Then I guess I have a question about worldbuilding because with that many words, I mean, I barely remember what I was writing last week. Do you have a world document where you keep all the rules of your world, all the characters, or is it just out of control? Derek: It's a combination. I have the rules for my zombie universe, how the zombies are formed, what they do, their timeline and all that. Thankfully, I mean, it's very simple. So if I drop in on a story a week into it, I know how the zombies are, so I'm able to just jump right into it. I have a have a story bible for the main series, but all of these side stories that are mostly one-offs, I don't really worry about as much because half the time nobody lives through them, anyway. Joanna: The benefits of horror! I think that's really interesting because when I was thinking about your different places— People in your position sometimes open up their world to other people to write in. Is that something you're thinking about? Derek: No, just because I have so many stories that are in the pipeline, and just have stories I want to tell. I produce them so fast, I mean, I'm releasing a story of a week. Even if I had somebody else writing stories, I really wouldn't have a place in the schedule to release them. An hour and a half to three hour story every week is, I think, about as much as my fans can handle. Joanna: So let's go into your process then. So you said a story a week for an hour and a half, which is funny because most people talk in terms of word count, but you talk in terms of time. Tell us about your story process for creation and publishing. Derek: So it really changed about a year and a half ago, when I started focusing more on YouTube. I changed how I write because it used to just be free flowing, the word count's the word count, the chapters are however long they need to be. With YouTube being ad-based, I had to change to almost a television mindset of, okay, I need a break every 12 to 15 minutes, which turns out to be about 2000 words. So I started writing 2000-word chapters, which really, really helped with the speed of the writing because I knew the beginning and end of each chapter. So if I was short on the word count, now I can go back and just add a little bit of banter, then bam, we're there. As far as the week to week process goes, half the time I'll know what I'm writing the next week on Friday, so I'll plot it out. Sometimes I'll have just a great idea for a story on Sunday night and completely change track and wake up Monday and just dive right in and see where it goes. Generally speaking, I'll spend two to three days writing out the story, refining it a little bit, and then going straight into the audio, which is where I do the final edit. I'll edit it as I'm producing the audio. So at the end of the day, I'll do the video, upload it to YouTube, and move on to the next one. Joanna: Okay, well, we have to get into that in more detail. So I heard you on the Brave New Bookshelf podcast, and you really inspired me about YouTube. For people who might not understand the AI audio piece, how are you doing those audiobooks so quickly? Derek: I use a software called PlayHT. It's pretty much the direct rival with Eleven Labs, which is the big AI audio. The biggest difference is that PlayHT offers an unlimited plan. If you're producing as much audio as I am, that's vital, mainly because I need to keep a roof over my head. I'll produce it chapter by chapter. So I'll paste it into their studio thing, render it, and then listen to it, then make whatever changes I need to make because you can re-render by line. So if I don't like the inflection, I can change a word. It's just quick click, and 30 seconds later that has a new audio generation. Once I have the finished audio, because I export it by chapter, I'll pull it over in the Final Cut Pro. I'll drop in motion background, so I know where the chapter breaks are when I'm putting it in the ads and YouTube, and export it. Then it's just straight to YouTube and on the schedule. Joanna: Okay, so a few questions there. For people who haven't done audio with AI—I know what you mean by make some changes—but what are some of the most common issues that you f

What are the different ways you can distribute and monetise your ebooks and audiobooks through Kobo Writing Life? How can you market them more effectively and reach more readers? With Tara Cremin. In the intro, the potential impact of tariffs and what to do about it [Self Publishing Advice]; Pep talk for authors during chaotic times [Publishing Confidential]; 8 ways to get more value from your backlist [BookBub]; Death Valley Kickstarter — and writing thrillers webinar. Write and format stunning books with Atticus. Create professional print books and eBooks easily with the all-in-one book writing software. Try it out at Atticus.io This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Tara Cremin is the Director of Kobo Writing Life, Kobo's independent publishing platform. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Changes in the indie book industry over the past decade How Kobo Plus compares to other subscription models Catering to different audiences by offering different book versions Tips for maximizing income from ebooks and audiobooks on Kobo Applying for promotions to expand your potential audience The payment model for Kobo Plus and library books Kobo's stance on AI-assisted books You can find Tara and the Kobo Writing Life team at Kobo.com/writinglife or email them at [email protected]. Transcript of Interview with Tara Cremin Joanna: Tara Cremin is the director of Kobo Writing Life, Kobo's independent publishing platform. Welcome back to the show, Tara. Tara: Thanks, Jo. Thanks for having me. Joanna: Oh, it is great to have you back on the show. It's actually been four years, which is crazy. Tara: I can't believe it. Joanna: I know. So I thought we'd go back to the beginning. Tell us a bit more about you. When did you get into the book business, and what are some of the changes you've seen for authors since then? Tara: Sure. So I've been working for Kobo since 2012, which feels like a lifetime. When I started, the company had created some great, but kind of relatively simple, eReaders. They were just starting to dip their toe into really expanding what physical devices could do. Then you fast forward to 2025, and we're the second largest manufacturer of eReaders, after our friends in Seattle. So part of the work that I do on Kobo Writing Life, I've been working on it basically since day one. Kobo Writing Life was created as a platform for authors who wanted to publish directly to Kobo readers. So I've been kind of working on that. The biggest change on the author side that I can really think of is just the expansion of the tools. I think it's easy to not always think back to 2012 because things move so quickly. I'll be like, “Oh, that was ages ago,” but it'll be like four years ago. When you're actually thinking about 2012, authors were uploading a Word doc and publishing their ebook, and then that was it. There wasn't a lot of different things available or more opportunities. Now, authors can really easily create accessible and like really beautifully designed ePubs with tools like Vellum and Atticus. They can publish audiobooks to Kobo, they can reach libraries, join subscription programs, and take advantage of all the promotional tools that are available. So I think the biggest change is just that there's more opportunities now for authors than when I started working in the book business. Joanna: Oh, and— What about the growth of Kobo for indies? I mean, we've heard before some of the stats around the number of self-published books on the Kobo platform. That's grown as well, hasn't it? Tara: It has. I have some stats for you. When we look at self-publishing on Kobo, it makes up about 25% of the units for single copy sales. Then if we think about the subscription reading, it makes up about 60% of English language subscription reading is all self-published content. It's huge. Joanna: Wow, that's incredible. So indie authors are important to Kobo, I guess we could say. Tara: Yes, and it started with somebody wanting to email a Word doc and get it published, which is why Kobo Writing Life was created as a platform. We've really been able to expand it and add additional features. Kobo has always taken a global stance of the digital book market, and I think we realized pretty early that the indie authors were really integral to that. Something that I don't think we talk about a lot because I'm primarily focused on the English language side, but we also have a portal that's just for users in Japan that's very self-contained in Japanese. Last year, we actually localized in traditional and simplified Chinese for our friends in Taiwan and Hong Kong. So the Kobo Writing Life platform is now available in eight languages. So we know how integral the independent authors are to the global book business. Joanna: Kobo originally was Canadian, right? Then it was bought by a Japanese company. Tara: Yes, so we're still headquartered in Toronto. We have a global presence, where we have offices in Taiwan, in Tokyo, Darmstadt and Dublin, and with a generous sprinkling of people throughout Europe. We were acquired by Rakuten, maybe prior to me joining, 2010, 2011, and we've been sort of their digital book area of that ever since then. So having this enormous company backing has been really, really helpful, but we do maintain quite a Canadian-centric grassroots focus with the HQ being here in Toronto. Joanna: Absolutely. So one of the changes you mentioned has been the subscription model. As you mentioned, our friends in Seattle have one that's quite famous that is an exclusive program. Kobo Plus is not exclusive, so people can be in that as well as selling their ebooks elsewhere, which I love. How does Kobo Plus subscription compare to some of the other subscription models for ebooks and audiobooks? Like, what is it for readers and listeners? Tara: Sure, I think it's maybe important to see why people have gone down the subscription route, for people that are potentially a little bit hesitant of that. So when we're thinking about the book business as a whole, or Kobo's history, I think in about 2015 we could see that there was a whole generation of consumers that were coming that were consuming most of their media by not purchasing it once at a time, and they were signing up for subscriptions. Whether this be music or movies or TV shows, I think we knew that books and audiobooks were going to go this way. As a retailer that was really doing a great job at selling books one at a time, we wanted to reach this subscription consumer without disrupting the business we had built and doing it in a way that benefited us, the publishers, the authors, but also the readers who were looking for this. So we tested this in a contained market. So it was launched back in 2017 in the Netherlands. This is because we had a really great market share there. A strong, willing partner, Bol, who wanted to test this out. One of the also key factors was that there's some of the biggest piracy rates in Europe were found in the Netherlands. So we wanted to see if we could convert those users who were already sometimes using Kobo devices. They're reading, they're just not paying for the reading. So we wanted to see if we could make this very easy, self-contained platform, could we convert them to paying users? Then what we found from that is that it really didn't cannibalize the a la carte sales. We had new customers signing up, and we could kind of see where they were coming from. Some of them were coming over from Kindle Unlimited, some of them coming from piracy. Some of them had been maybe just library users that had been moved into this kind of easier one click model. Some of them had never read an ebook before, but used it as a way to step their toe into the digital reading. What we found is that —  Publishers and authors, they all earned more as a result of the new readers [on subscription]. So what we looked at with these findings was—gosh, it'll be almost 10 years now, which is wild. Time doesn't exist anymore, Joanna—but with the findings from the Netherlands, we've been able to expand Kobo Plus. As of this recording, we are currently in 23 countries, which is including all of our core markets. There'll be more to come, probably shortly after this comes out, actually, but I can't quite say where. So 23 countries right now. Like you've mentioned, we're not the only subscription model out there, but what makes us a little bit different is the focus on the importance of the authors and wanting to give them flexibility, while also trying to reach this subscription reader. So it was really important to us that we didn't lock any authors into exclusivity. Our ethos around KWL is really trying to encourage authors to publish widely on as many platforms as they can, to reach as many readers as they can. We just want to make sure that the Kobo experience of you publishing widely is really easy and that you're not spending too much time on it because you're balancing all of these other platforms. So we built this out so authors can pick and choose the country. They can choose all of them if they want, which is what I would always recommend. If you're a wide author that's publishing globally, I don't know why you wouldn't put your books in, but perhaps you didn't want to hit up your main markets, like the US or Canada. You do have the option of like excluding those, or you can select all of them. What's a cool way about selecting all of them is that it actually includes future territories. So as we've been rapidly expanding Ko

What’s the difference between telling a story on screen and on the page? How does indie film production overlap with indie publishing—and what can writers learn from the world of filmmaking? Why might a producer choose creative freedom over big studio deals, and what does that mean when it comes to book marketing? Gretchen McGowan talks about her memoir Flying In: My Adventures in Filmmaking, navigating the independent film world, and finding her voice as an author. In the intro, NaNoWriMo shutting down [The Verge]; Amazon introduces AI-generated Recaps; Thoughts on the creative cycle; How to Write a Novel audiobook on YouTube; Mapwalker fantasy novels on YouTube. Plus, Death Valley, A Thriller Kickstarter and thriller writing class; J.F. Penn on The Adventure Story Podcast; Death Valley expert Steve Hall on the Books and Travel Podcast; My photos from Death Valley. Today's show is sponsored by ProWritingAid, writing and editing software that goes way beyond just grammar and typo checking. With its detailed reports on how to improve your writing and integration with writing software, ProWritingAid will help you improve your book before you send it to an editor, agent or publisher. Check it out for free or get 15% off the premium edition at www.ProWritingAid.com/joanna This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Gretchen McGowan is an award-winning independent film producer, filmmaking lecturer, and the author of Flying In: My Adventures in Filmmaking. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes What does an indie film producer actually do? The isolation of writing a book vs. making a film The fear of underserving your audience Tools for writing the “truth” in memoir Seeing a new place for the first time through the eyes of a filmmaker The parallels of self-publishing and the indie film world Utilizing your network to help market your book AI tools being used in this democratization of film You can find Gretchen at GretchenMcGowan.com and GoldcrestFilms.com. Transcript of Interview with Gretchen McGowan Joanna: Gretchen McGowan is an award-winning independent film producer, filmmaking lecturer, and the author of Flying In: My Adventures in Filmmaking. So welcome to the show, Gretchen. Gretchen: Thank you so much, Joanna. It's a dream to be here. Joanna: Well, it's going to be so fun talking to you today. First up— Tell us a bit more about you and what you actually do in the indie filmmaking industry, and what even is that? Gretchen: Yes, well, I'm an independent producer. I come from a freelancing background in the independent film world. We make largely films that are kind of under $15 million, although that fluctuates all the way down to the really almost no budget kind of film. When you're a producer on those kinds of films, you wear many, many hats, because your footprint is small, your crew is smaller. So you have to be good at many things, or at least pretend to be. A lot of that is trial and error. So that's been largely my background. I'm now at a company called Goldcrest Films. They're based in London, but we have a branch here in New York, and there I oversee film. So I'm a little less hands on at this point with each film. We also do documentaries, and on those, I'm very, very hands on. Joanna: You said that you wear many hats, so just be a bit more specific. What are the actual things that a producer does? Gretchen: Sure. So in the early stages, you're, of course, approving scripts, making script changes with writers. You are casting with the casting director and the director of the film. Then you're location scouting at distant locations, even nearby locations. You are involved in really every decision that is made, and you're trying to help tell a story with your director. The director really is king in this case, or queen, and you're there to facilitate that. To make sure that their vision of this script is seen on screen by you. Joanna: Do you manage the budget, or is that somebody else? Gretchen: You do. That's one of the less glamorous things, but I still enjoy it because every aspect of that film is reflected in that budget. You have to make sure going into it, it's a little bit idealistic what your budget might be at that point, but it's based upon experience. So it's not a fantasy of what that budget will be. You'll look at similar budgets where you ultimately landed to create that budget, and to know what it takes to get the film actually to market. Joanna: Then once the film is made, are you involved in the editing at all? The actual sort of what happens after the filming? Gretchen: Definitely. To me, the editorial process is the final chance to write the script again. I come from editing, actually. I started out kind of through the back door, in the finishing process in editorial. So it's close to my heart, I would say, the editorial process. I feel like we can talk about AI and all the ways in which people make films now, but there's still like a gestation period to getting a film completed. It takes a little bit of time to find the story, to find the best takes, to edit out what doesn't belong, and to complete the film. Joanna: Then before we move on, after this film is finished, is your job done? Or are you then involved in distribution and marketing? Gretchen: Well, that'll depend on the distributor that we find for the film. Sometimes we have a distributor already when we're in pre-production, so we know what our deliverables will be, what the release date will be, what cast we need in place to go to certain festivals and that kind of thing. Often we are much more indie-minded, indie-spirited, in that we finish that film, we edit it, we do all the beautifying of it, and sound and picture and visual effects, and then we take it to a festival and hope to sell the film. Now, those days are kind of disappearing because there are fewer and fewer films being made and being sold for many, many reasons. In an ideal world, you would sell that film at a festival, and then they would say to you, “Here's the way in which we plan to distribute it.” A producer is very, very involved in organizing that, in getting them all their deliverables and making sure the film really has everything it needs to go to market. That probably means going to a lot of festivals and being involved in the campaign as it's rolled out across the country and across the world. Joanna: It's incredible to me. I've really been learning a lot more about the film business. I think on the other side, obviously, it doesn't look so difficult, but there's so much that goes into a film. Even, as you say, “a smaller budget of under $15 million,” which people are like, what? That is a huge budget. Of course, it's not really, is it? Gretchen: It's true. In all these films, probably like any book that you would write, the life of it extends long past when you put your pen down. So you have several films that you're kind of in maintenance mode and continuing to push out there, even though you stopped filming many, many months ago. Joanna: So let's get into the book. So why did you decide to write a book after focusing primarily on the visual media? What were the challenges of writing a book versus making a film? Gretchen: Oh gosh. Well, it was all alone, that's for sure. I didn't have my team around me. I wanted to write the book because I felt like I was involved in filmmaking at this really special time in the 1990s and into the 2000s, a lot of it here in New York, but also around the world. Making films, we just did it in a slightly different way than we do today. I was afraid we were sort of losing sight of how we used to do things. I was teaching up at Columbia University a class in pre-production, and then a class in production for directors. I was having so much fun, and the questions that were coming at me made me think, this is really a book, isn't it? These are stories that they're enjoying. They're getting a lot out of it. They're still relevant. I feel like this could translate nicely into a sequence of stories that could be really entertaining. How is it different from working on a book? So working on the book, of course I'm carrying all these characters in my head, so I never feel totally alone when I sit down to write. It's just a completely different thing to be motivated for yourself to write a book, as opposed to these constant deadlines that are coming at you when you're making a film. You have a schedule, you must meet that. Other people are depending upon you. With a book, I was on my own. There was nobody saying, “You have to finish chapter seven by April 1.” It was just a made up scheme for myself. So the made up scheme continued to shift, as you can imagine. Joanna: That's so interesting because I chose to be a writer, one of the reasons was to be alone. I know people listening, I think we're all serious introverts in the sort of full-time writer mode, but that was the first thing you brought up there as a challenge, was being all alone. So do you think people who work in film are just much more sociable and enjoy the collaboration and the teamwork and that kind of thing? Gretchen: That's so funny because I feel like I'm a forced extrovert. I feel like I'm an introvert, like you, by nature. Being involved in the film business, I think many of us are just kind of forced into the world of an extrovert. There's a role on set called the first assistant director, the first AD, we call them. I always think of them as the extrovert for the director because the director doesn't want to be shouting out

What are some ways you can market a book during a launch period using audio, video, and text? What does my JFPenn voice clone sound like narrating the first two chapters of my thriller, Death Valley? J.F. Penn is the Award-winning, New York Times and USA Today bestselling author of thrillers, dark fantasy, crime, horror, short stories, and travel memoir. Jo lives in Bath, England and enjoys a nice G&T. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Examples of multimedia book marketing for a book launch — Death Valley Book Trailer; Books and Travel interview with Death Valley expert, Steve Hall; also on YouTube; Video of Death Valley pictures, and more Two chapters of Death Valley, a thriller, written by J.F. Penn and digitally narrated by my JFPenn voice clone on ElevenLabs, produced by Simon Patrick, 10XB You can find DEATH VALLEY at JFPenn.com/deathvalley. The Kickstarter runs until 15 April, and then the link will redirect. It's also available on Amazon for pre-order (available in June). Transcript Hello Creatives, I’m Joanna Penn and this is episode #802 of the podcast and it is Wednesday 2 April 2025 as I record this. In this extra inbetweenisode, I’m sharing the first two chapters of my new thriller, Death Valley, which you can listen to after this introduction. Of course, I hope you enjoy the story and want to join the Kickstarter at JFPenn.com/deathvalley  but I also thought it might be useful for you in several ways:  Firstly, it is made with my voice clone on ElevenLabs, so if you have had your doubts about digital narration with AI, then perhaps this might help you think about it some more. I have found it quite strange proofing the story and listening to my voice, but I love it, and the amount of time it saves me, and effort, is well worth it. My audiobook narrator voice is different to my more casual podcasting voice so you will notice that, but I hope you agree that it really does sound like me. I am planning on licensing it as well in the hope of creating another stream of income.  If you notice points where you think, that’s sounds strange, or that’s wrong, well, the same thing happens when you listen to human narration. I think this is within the same levels I’d expect from a human. Why else might this be useful for you? Well — It’s book marketing, and we all need reminding of different ways to market a book. I am trying to combine audio and video as well as text for this launch. If you go to the Story page on the Kickstarter, you will see I have a video of human me talking and showing you the book — As well as a book trailer with images generated by Midjourney and brought alive with RunwayML, and also text about why I’ve always loved deserts. I also have an interview about Death Valley on my Books and Travel Podcast with Steve Hall, a Death Valley expert, and that’s out now. It is an audio podcast – just search Books and Travel on your favourite app, or you can watch our discussion on video on YouTube @jfpennauthor. Plus, I have made another video with my photos also on YouTube, and of course, I have social media posts every day scheduled with BufferApp, and some paid ads, all underpinned by email marketing. Yes, I am putting in the marketing effort, because none of us can just stick a book up on a platform and expect it to sell. You have to do something, and you have to push your comfort zone about what you do. I hope this has given you some ideas, and if you love fast-paced thrillers, or if you want some ideas for your Kickstarter campaign, check it out at JFPenn.com/deathvalley  The post Death Valley Audiobook Chapters And Book Marketing Tips With J.F Penn first appeared on The Creative Penn.

What's the difference between writing a book and writing a screenplay? What are the different business models? If you've written a screenplay, how can you get it read? TD Donnelly talks about the challenges and rewards of screenwriting, as well as his first thriller novel. In the intro, ProWritingAid spring sales 25% off; Key takeaways from the Future of Publishing conference [Written Word Media]; Curios for authors; Indie author’s scam survival guide [Productive Indie Author]; Writer Beware; OpenAI’s 4o image generation model launch [OpenAI]; Plus, check out Death Valley: A Thriller by J.F. Penn. This episode is sponsored by Publisher Rocket, which will help you get your book in front of more Amazon readers so you can spend less time marketing, and more time writing. I use Publisher Rocket for researching book titles, categories, and keywords — for new books and for updating my backlist. Check it out at www.PublisherRocket.com This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  T.D. Donnelly is the author of the thriller The Year of the Rabbit. He's also been a screenwriter for more than 25 years, with credits including Sahara with Matthew McConaughey, Conan the Barbarian, and adaptations for the works of Ray Bradbury, Clive Cussler, Stan Lee and others. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Challenges of being a screenwriter The competitive nature of the film industry compared to indie publishing Payment structure for screenwriters — stages of payment, production bonuses, and residuals Regaining rights to old, unpublished screenplays Writing differences between screenplays and novels Craft and pitching advice for aspiring screenwriters Why Tom is not worried about AI in the film industry You can find Tom at TDDonnelly.com. Transcript of Interview with Tom Donnelly Joanna: TD Donnelly is the author of the thriller The Year of the Rabbit. He's also been a screenwriter for more than 25 years, with credits including Sahara with Matthew McConaughey, Conan the Barbarian, and adaptations for the works of Ray Bradbury, Clive Cussler, Stan Lee and others. So welcome to the show, Tom. Tom: Hey, Jo. How are you today? Joanna: Oh, I'm good. It's really fun to talk to you about this. So first up— Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into screenwriting and, particularly, into adaptations. Tom: Okay, so I grew up in New Jersey. My father was an accountant in Manhattan, and my mother was a housewife raising three boys, which is not easy, and sometimes doing a little bit of real estate. So nobody in my family had ever been in a creative field. I had no connection, but what I did have was a 20 minute bike ride from my house growing up, sometime around 10 years old, they built a multiplex, like a 10-movie theater. Back in the 80s, that was quite something. I figured out that on a Saturday, I could ride my bike down like four blind alleys and along the median of a six lane highway for a little bit. It was probably not a good idea, but I could ride my bike to that movie theater, chain it up, spend three or four bucks for a matinee ticket, and then sneak into at least two other movies after that. I was absolutely hooked. I was like, oh my god, this is the best. This is the 80s. This is Raiders of the Lost Ark and Empire Strikes Back. I was transported every weekend into other fantastical worlds. I feel like it indoctrinated me into story and into the scope of story and the power of story. It was all the idea that the Japanese, they have a 100-year plan. When you want to become something in Japan, you apprentice for 10 years, and you just spend all those 10 years learning everything you can so you can become an expert. I guess we call it the 10,000 hours now. I realized at age 15 hearing this, I had like a brainstorm. It was like, hey, if I did that, that's about 10 years of my life. I would still only be like 25 or 26 if I spent all my time just trying to be a screenwriter. If I did that, I would be 25, and if it doesn't work out, I could still do something else at that point. I'm still really young and all that sort of stuff. So I kind of set out with that goal in mind. I told my guidance counselor in high school, I was like, “I would like to be a screenwriter in Hollywood.” The guy just looked at me like, where do you think you are? What planet do you think you are on? Just had no idea what to do with me. He kept trying to suggest other careers that were reasonable, and I just was adamant. So he was like, okay, I'm just going to wash my hands of you and let you go. I've never reached back to contact him, but that would have been funny. Anyway, I got my undergrad at Vassar with an English and Drama double major. Then I got accepted to USC Film School for a master's degree in the directing program, actually. My thesis script—this never happens, okay, I want to preface that this never ever happens—was the first feature length script that I ever wrote, and it ended up, two or three years later, being sold in a bidding war. I ended up getting hip-pocketed. Hip-pocketing means that an agent says, I'm not going to put you on my official roles, and we're not going to go through the official channels and stuff like that, but I will help you. I will read your stuff, and I will give you notes. If something happens, then we'll talk about me representing you officially. Anyway, I had an agent that was hip-pocketing me, and at the time I was editing to pay the bills. I was editing film and television, in particular television at that point. The producer I was working for wanted to hire me immediately onto another television project. I said, “I'm sorry, I can't do that.” He was like, “What? I thought I thought we had a good relationship.” I said, “No, we have a great relationship, but I've saved up enough money to write for six months, and whenever I've saved up enough money to write for six months, I always don't take an editing job because I don't want to just be an editor. I want to be a filmmaker. I want to be a writer.” He was like, “Oh. Oh, do you have anything to show me?” I said, “Well, I have my thesis script that I wrote in college.” He was like, “Can I check it out?” And he read it, and he said, “I'd like to send it to a couple of my friends. Would that be all right?”  I said, “Sure.” So I called the agent that was hip-pocketing me, and I said, “Hey, great news, this producer, this guy, he wanted to share the script.” My agent was like, “What? He can't do that. When he does that, he's attaching himself as a producer.” I'm like, oh no. So he's like, “Who did he give it to?” I said, “I don't know.” So long story short, too late already. So sorry, so sorry. He finds out the three people that this producer sent them to, and it ends up it's the head of 20th Century Fox Production, the head of another—like three very big people—and calls up the first one and says, “There's a script that came to you last weekend. It should not have gone out. I just want to claw it back until it's ready.” They're like, “Oh, we were just about to call you. We'd like to put in a bid on it.” After that, everything changed. Suddenly, we're in a bidding war. There ended up being three different bidders, and the script sold for—well, let's just say this. At the time, I had over $100,000 in student debt from grad school and undergrad, and with that sale, I paid off every single debt that I had. I was free and clear. It was amazing. Joanna: So first of all, you seem very mature as a child to decide that you want to—or as a teenager—to sort of decide, yes, I'm going be a screenwriter. Then obviously you making the choice to study it, and then everything falls into place. I guess by the time you did that major deal in, I guess it would have been the, what, late 90s by then? Tom: No, early 90s. Yes, early 90s. Joanna: Early 90s, okay. Tom: No, '95. Sorry. Joanna: '95, and you've stuck at this career since then. This seems incredibly single-minded to me. Tom: It's weird, but I basically came at it from this viewpoint. I love storytelling. I love stories. I love movies. I love books. My mother would, when I was a kid, she would drop us off at the public library, sometimes all afternoon as she would go out and be doing real estate things. So we read everything in the library. We were indoctrinated in story from a very early age. I said, if I'm this fortunate to be able to try and fail things, I better do that because I don't want to have regrets. I don't want to have regrets in my life. I don't know why I realized that at such a young age, I don't understand. If you ask my wife, I'm not a wise person. I'm really not. Joanna: Maybe you're just single-minded. Tom: A little bit. I said, if I could do this as a career, I think I would be happy for my whole life. That thought, once that got in my head, it kind of never left, and it has absolutely been true. As difficult as the writing life can be, it is such a joy each day to know that I'm making something that's never been and I'm putting into the world. There are people that are reading the stories or watching the movies that I've been a part of. For some of them, it's exactly what they needed at a low moment in their lives. Or for some it's like it spoke to them in a really deep and human way. I just think that's magic, and if I could be a part of that, I love it. Joanna: Well, then you mentioned were difficult there. This is really interesting because, of course, I've talked to screenwriters over the years and sort of dipped m

How can we avoid the mistake of comparing our first drafts with the finished books we love? How can we improve our manuscripts? Kristopher Jansma gives his tips. In the intro, Finding your deepest reason to write [Ink In Your Veins]; London Book Fair, AI audio and ‘vibe coding' [Self Publishing with ALLi]; Pirated database of books used to train AI models [The Atlantic]; Fair use and copyright with Alicia Wright; The Guardian strategic partnership with OpenAI; Trump Administration’s AI Action Plan and potential around fair use [Ars Technica]; How to Think About AI: A Guide for the Perplexed by Richard Susskind; Death Valley, A Thriller by J.F. Penn. This podcast is sponsored by Kobo Writing Life, which helps authors self-publish and reach readers in global markets through the Kobo eco-system. You can also subscribe to the Kobo Writing Life podcast for interviews with successful indie authors. This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Kristopher Jansma is the award-winning author of literary fiction novels, short fiction and essays, as well as Revisionaries: What We Can Learn from the Lost, Unfinished, and Just Plain Bad Work of Great Writers. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes The mistake of comparing first drafts to finished works Dismantling the notion of genius How to turn our manuscripts into masterpieces Knowing when it's time to walk away from a book, or push through and persevere Seeking support from editors and friends Balancing the joyful side and business side of being an author The importance of social media in developing your personal brand Drawing boundaries and protecting personal information in your writing You can find Kristopher at KristopherJansma.com or The Nature of the Fun on Substack. Transcript of Interview with Kristopher Jansma Joanna: Kristopher Jansma is the award-winning author of literary fiction novels, short fiction and essays, as well as Revisionaries: What We Can Learn from the Lost, Unfinished, and Just Plain Bad Work of Great Writers. So welcome to the show, Kris. Kristopher: Thanks for having me on, Jo. Joanna: I'm excited to talk to you about this. First up— Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing. Kristopher: Well, I have been a writer pretty much my whole life. I'm one of those writers who, as a child, you couldn't get a book out of my hand. I have a whole storage unit somewhere full of school journals that are full of little stories and things. It was just something that I took to really early and always really wanted to do. As I got older, I started taking it a little more seriously. Then I went to school eventually and studied writing. So it's always been a lifelong love of mine. Joanna: So are you a full-time writer? We're always interested in how people make a living writing on this show. Kristopher: I don't know very many full-time writers, sadly. So I'm an Associate Professor of Creative Writing at SUNY New Paltz College here in New York State. So I'm teaching creative writing, which is wonderful because I get to talk about what I love all the time and help students with their writing. I'm the director of our creative writing program up there right now. Joanna: Well, that's fantastic. It makes me understand a lot more why you wrote this book, Revisionaries. So let's get into that. Why is it sort of just a number one mistake of writers, which is comparing our first draft efforts to the finished books we read? Why is comparing our first drafts to the finished books we read a mistake? Kristopher: I think it's natural, but I think it's a mistake. I mentioned before, I was a big reader as a child and all through my life, and I think that's how most writers get started. We fall in love with books at some point, and reading, and I think it's pretty natural at some points to start to wonder if we could do it too. You know, how much fun it would be to do and give somebody else the great experience that we've just gotten. We model our efforts on the things that we've read before and the things that we admire, of course. Then a funny thing starts to happen, of course, as we get more serious about it, and — We start to realize there's a huge gap between what we're able to do and what our heroes have done in the past. Then I think a lot of people, after having a lot of fun with it at first, start to get really frustrated because they feel like, okay, well, what's the point if I'm never going to be as good as someone like F Scott Fitzgerald. In my case, he was like my hero growing up, or JD Salinger, or somebody like that. I think what we miss, what most of us don't really learn much about, is that those writers only achieve these kind of great masterpieces after tons of failure, rejection, screw ups, mistakes. A lot of them had a lot of help from other people, like editors and family, and all of that. So I think then we just have this misconception about how it works. What I think we tend to believe is that there are just certain people who luck out in the genetic lottery or something, and they're just naturally gifted, talented writers, and that they're geniuses from day one. That was really what I wanted to try to dismantle in this book, was this idea that these great writers—not that they're not geniuses, not that they're not so great—but just that it's not all natural. They didn't get there on their own, and it didn't come without a lot of failure along the way. Joanna: As you were talking now, I was thinking about also the difference. I mean, as an associate professor in creative writing, you naturally teach—well, maybe you have to teach—specific books, things that are considered classic. There are books that are considered classics. I almost feel this is another problem is that we compare ourselves to the classics. Whereas take someone like Isaac Asimov, who wrote over 400 books, people always compare themselves to the ones that were most successful. Whereas most books are not those classics, are they? Could we compare ourselves to normal books instead of these ‘classics'? Kristopher: Absolutely. I talk about this a little bit in the introduction to Revisionaries. I took a class when I was in college, but I snuck into a graduate class, and we read Faulkner, Fitzgerald, and Hemingway. It was all these amazing works by amazing American writers. I talked about in the book this lesser known work of Fitzgerald that he didn't finish before he died, called The Love of the Last Tycoon, and realizing it was actually pretty bad. I was finding it kind of depressing at the time, but then realizing later in life that actually that is something that was good. In my mind, I was able to realize, okay, this shows that even somebody that could write The Great Gatsby might write another book that's not so wonderful. Then, of course, and I did mention this in the introduction, but I think of this a lot. With Faulkner, we started with and the Sound and the Fury, and I didn't know for years and years after that that wasn't his first novel. I thought it was his debut book. A friend of mine said, “Oh, if you're ever feeling intimidated, go read one of Faulkner's first two novels.” I think it's Mosquitoes and Soldier's Pay or something, and he said, “You'll feel a lot better about your own writing,” and he was right. Joanna: Yes, I think that's important. Now, you did mention the word “genius”, and you use it in the book to anchor each chapter, but genius is a really hard word. I mean, it's a word many people are uncomfortable with, and I think it's interesting. Why did you choose the word “genius”, and how did your definition change over the process of writing? Kristopher: I'm glad you mentioned that. Each chapter has a little section called “Fail Like a Genius” at the end that kind of gives you some tips on writing, or exercises you can do that are inspired by the chapter. The word genius was floating around for me in the very beginning because what I was wanting to do, I realized, was dismantle the notion of genius. As you mentioned, it is such a problematic idea. As I was mentioning before, if we see other people who are successful, we can just tell ourselves, “Oh, they're just a genius. They were born with some talent or some ability that other people aren't. I'll never succeed because I don't have that thing.” I think that's where a lot of us begin the writing process, and that this idea that we're trying to figure out if we have what it takes somewhere within us. When the reality is — What it takes is a lot of persistence, a lot of practice, a lot of stubbornness. Also mixed in, and I think this is where it gets hard, an ability to learn from your mistakes and see where you've gone wrong, and then make corrections the next time. When you look at these stories of these writers, you realize that this is what they've done as well. It's not like they just sat down one day wrote a masterpiece because they have some magical abilities that you or I don't. Joanna: This is what kind of annoys me with writing, compared to something like visual art. So here in Europe, if you go to Malaga, you can go to the Picasso's early museum where he was born. You can see some of the pieces that he did when he was a child and then when he was a young man, and you can see the development. In visual art, they appreciate the development of the artist, and also have this idea of periods. Like, that's the blue period, then that was this, as visual artists experimented. It wasn't like, oh, they suddenly arrive on the scene with a perfect novel, which seems

How can writing help you through difficult times, whether that's a change you didn't anticipate or an experience of grief? How can you differentiate between writing for yourself vs. writing for publication? Karen Wyatt gives her tips. In the intro, Amazon opens up AI narration with Audible Virtual Voice on the KDP Dashboard [KDP Help]; Voice Technologies, Streaming And Subscription Audio In A Time Of Artificial Intelligence; Spotify announces short fiction publishing for indie authors [Spotify]; Audio for Authors: Audiobooks, Podcasting, and Voice Technologies — Joanna Penn; Writing for Audio First with Jules Horne; Writing for Audiobooks: Audio-first for Flow and Impact – Jules Horne. BookVault.app is now printing in Canada, as well as Australia, UK, and US. Plus, Measure your life by what you create: 50 by 50; and Reykjavik Art, Northern Lights, and The West Fjords: Iceland, Land of Fire and Ice; Books and Travel Podcast returns this week; Writing the Shadow on the Biz Book Broadcast with Liz Scully; ElevenLabs speech to text for dictation. Today's show is sponsored by Draft2Digital, self-publishing with support, where you can get free formatting, free distribution to multiple stores, and a host of other benefits. Just go to www.draft2digital.com to get started. This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Dr. Karen Wyatt is a retired hospice physician and bestselling author of books about death, loss, and grief. She's also the host of the End-of-Life University Podcast and an inspirational speaker. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Different types of grief that we deal with throughout life Why write about grief and end of life? Using writing to deal with the complex emotions around grief The role of control in grief Transforming personal writing into publication How spirituality plays a role in the grieving process How to approach writing about family members You can find Karen at EOLuniversity.com. Transcript of Interview with Karen Wyatt Joanna: Dr. Karen Wyatt is a retired hospice physician and bestselling author of books about death, loss, and grief. She's also the host of the End-of-Life University Podcast and an inspirational speaker. Today we're talking about her book, Stories from the Dark Night: Writing as a Tool for Grief. So welcome back to the show, Karen. Karen: Thank you, Joanna. I'm so excited to be talking to you once again. Joanna: Yes. Now, it's been a while, so first up— Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and publishing. Karen: Well, like so many of your guests that you interview here, I've always been interested in stories. I started writing stories when I was seven years old. I wrote a three act play when I was 10, which my school ended up producing. So I guess I could say I'm a published playwright, my one and only play. I've always loved writing down my thoughts and ideas and telling stories and writing them down. I kind of got waylaid in terms of writing by becoming a doctor. So I had a number of years there of intense schooling, and then I was a doctor and a wife and mother at the same time. I had very, very little time for writing. It was precious time if I ever could just sit down and jot down a little story that was in my head. Still, the creative juices kept flowing, as I know you've talked about. Like, just ideas, ideas, ideas every day for stories or things I wanted to write, but I always had to put that aside. I was just too busy. So I finally retired from medicine early, and I was a hospice physician for a number of years. I retired early so that I could write because I'd been gathering all these stories while I worked in hospice. Amazing, beautiful stories from patients I worked with. I just knew it's time for me now to shift into writing mode. I retired early 15 years ago, and I started writing then. I hadn't really thought about what it takes to publish a book, I didn't know that. I finally started delving into that, and through you and your podcast, I learned about independent publishing. I've been able to publish my books myself most of the time. Though, I worked once with a hybrid publisher and then most recently with Watkins Publishing from the UK. It's been a really fun journey for me of finally having a chance later in life to get into the writing that I started when I was seven years old. Joanna: That's wonderful. Just on being drawn to the darker side, I mean, obviously as a doctor, you could have gone into many different areas and ended up being a hospice physician, and— You're writing about end of life. Has that always been an interest? I mean, I guess I'm saying this from the perspective of someone, as you know, I have always thought about death. Like from a very young age, I remember thinking about death and dying. So it's always been on my mind. I wondered if that was true for you. Karen: I did have some interest in death and dying. A classmate of mine died when we were 16 years old, and that kind of really woke me up to the idea that, oh, my goodness, everyone dies, and you could die at any age. I started really contemplating my own mortality at 16. Like, you know what? Nothing's guaranteed. I could die at any time. So I will say death has been on my thoughts since a young age. Then early in my medical career, my father died by suicide, and I was really plunged into this whole world—and I call it my dark night of the soul, in a way—of grief after his death. This is what led me into working for hospice because I realized, even though I had thought about death, I didn't really know anything about it. I didn't know anything about grief, even though I was a doctor. I hadn't had any training in that area. So I started volunteering for hospice to help me understand what I was going through. What am I going through here as I'm grieving my father's death? Ultimately, I shifted my whole career to hospice because I found it was just a rich, very spiritual, sacred place to be. A sacred way to be a doctor with working with patients and families, and it was very powerful for me. So it was really grief itself that shifted my path as a doctor, initially. Then, again, as I said, I started gathering so many stories and learning so many things about this process of loss and how we navigate it and cope with it in life. I really felt inspired to start writing and talking and teaching about it because at that time, it seemed like a very taboo subject. I think it still is, in many ways. Joanna: It's so weird. You said there that as doctors, you didn't really get into the death side of things. It just seems so crazy to me because it happens to 100% of people, and it's like a physical process—obviously, much more than that. Why aren't doctors trained on death? Karen: It's so bizarre. I still can't wrap my head around why that is. It's partly because modern medicine focuses so much on curing illness and saving lives that death has become the enemy. So we don't want to think about that or talk about that because we don't want it to happen for our patients. It's ridiculous because it does happen. I think back to when a patient was approaching death in the hospital when we were in training, suddenly that patient was taken off our service. We didn't follow them anymore because, well, they weren't a good teaching tool now because they're going to die. We'll move on to the patients that we can cure because that's what we're here to learn about. It really doesn't make any sense, but it's part of why we have a problem with how we take care of people at the end of life. I think that's why I just felt inspired. I want to help do this differently, and that's why hospice was so appealing to me. Joanna: And why books and writing and talking about these things are so important. As you say, there's a lot of taboo, and perhaps even more taboo around the way your father died. Before we get into that, I just wanted us to talk about the word grief, because it feels like there are many forms of grief. It is not just if we are dying, or if our partner is dying, or our family is dying, or if someone is dying. What are some of the other ways that grief might come up for people? What might help them if they're feeling certain ways? Karen: I think it is important for us to recognize that — We feel grief whenever major changes take place in our life. I had a mom tell me she grieved when her child no longer used baby language. Like started talking and saying words normally, and they lost all the cute little expressions that their toddler used to say. When that was over with, she felt grief because it was a big change. Something shifted, and she lost something. So we can feel grief even in times of happiness, when good things are happening. If you think about it, life is one series of loss and change after another. So it makes sense, in a way, grief is kind of an emotion that's always present for us if we really look at it. Joanna: Is it a change that is out of our control, rather than something that we can control? I'm thinking, personally, I feel like when I went through menopause, I felt a lot of grief over losing a sense of who I was as a younger woman, I guess. Then I feel like a lot of anger, as we record this in 2025, there's a lot of political anger in different sides, and also anger around AI maybe taking people's jobs. All of these things are not choices that are made deliberately. They're things that are almost out of our control. How much does grief and loss of control go together? Karen: I think definitely. I mean, I think

How can you release more creativity into your writing — and your life? What are some practices to foster creativity in a time of change and overwhelm? Jacob Nordby gives his tips. In the intro, tips for spring cleaning as indie authors; Death Valley – A Thriller Kickstarter; Death Valley book trailer; Footprints Podcast – Bath in Literature; This podcast is sponsored by Kobo Writing Life, which helps authors self-publish and reach readers in global markets through the Kobo eco-system. You can also subscribe to the Kobo Writing Life podcast for interviews with successful indie authors. This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Jacob Nordby is an entrepreneur and author of several books, including The Creative Cure: How Finding and Freeing Your Inner Artist Can Heal Your Life. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Indications we might need a “creative cure” Practices to strengthen your connection with creativity Journaling as a tool to work through mental and creative blocks Practices around the physical body Tapping into your intuition Overcoming the fear that holds you back Time and effort involved in changing career directions How to keep pivoting, changing, and moving forward You can find Jacob at JacobNordby.com. Transcript of Interview with Jacob Nordby Joanna: Jacob Nordby is an entrepreneur and author of several books, including The Creative Cure: How Finding and Freeing Your Inner Artist Can Heal Your Life. So welcome to the show, Jacob. Jacob: Thank you so much. I'm so glad to be here, Jo. Joanna: I'm excited to talk to you. So first up— Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into creativity and writing. Jacob: Well, I was born … We won't start there! When I was 10 years old, I came out into the living room, and I'd been reading a book, which I did mostly. We didn't watch television or see movies or anything like that. So books were my very best friends. So I came out of the living room and told my parents that I want to be a writer. Of course, I had told them before I wanted to be a spy or firefighter or something. This was the first thing that really hit for me, and I could really feel it. Then fast forward into adulthood, and I promptly forgot that, and plunged into starting businesses and really trying to secure my place in the American dream. I woke up around age 35 realizing that this was all feeling very hollow. After a series of events that turned my world upside down, I moved to Austin, Texas. It was there, working two or three part time jobs and trying to figure out what was next, that I remembered that I really wanted to be a writer. So I began to write about 15 years ago. One of the things that helped me get started was The Artist's Way by Julia Cameron. Are you familiar with that work? Joanna: Yes, absolutely. Jacob: Okay, well, I was sitting in this warehouse and was writing away and began to go back into this book my father had given me, The Artist's Way. It really broke me open. I longed, at some point, to be able to share the process of not just writing, but of discovering who we really are and expressing that. Fast forward about five or six more years from there, and I had the great pleasure of meeting Julia, and she's become a dear friend. So that's one aspect of the work I do, is I work with her and share these things. Also, in my own world, I hold workshops and do one-on-one work with people, guidance work, with both writers and non-writers. It's just something I love because — I see creativity as our vital spark, as our life force energy, and it's meant to flow in every part of our lives. Often, when people will show up saying, “I'm creatively blocked,” we will pull that thread a bit and discover it's not just “creatively blocked.” I'm doing my air quotes fingers right now. It's feeling blocked in life. So, often as we work through what are some channels in life that need to be opened up, they discover maybe it was “I need to clean my garage.” Then they go clean the garage and come back in two weeks and say, “Oh my goodness, I had no idea how much I was boxing up my emotions, my sense of possibility, and everything. I found old boxes from my divorce or from when my mother died. I went through there, and all of a sudden I feel emotionally open and able to express again.” So I love working with people in so many ways and helping them realize that expression is meant to be as natural as breathing for the creative spirit. Joanna: Well, let's get into the book then, because it's called The Creative Cure. I find this an interesting title because the word “cure” implies a sickness where we start from. So I guess you mentioned feeling blocked there. What are some of the things in our life or our writing that indicate we might need such a cure? Jacob: You know, it's interesting. I wrote a previous book called Blessed Are the Weird, and that was this very direct sort of manifesto for creatives. I was surprised how many people showed up and raised their hands and said, “I'm one of this group,” whatever this group is. There were a lot of other people, Jo, who would tell me, “I'm not that creative. In fact, I don't know if I have a creative bone in my body.” My heart just said we need to change this idea, what the idea of creativity has become. In a lot of cases, I feel like it's been affected by the industrial era of production and distribution, which are wonderful things. A lot of artists find themselves stuck because they can't see how what they have to create and share will ever become widely viable in that way. So, cure. Here's what I feel very deeply about our creative spirit is that it can't be broken or damaged, but the process of becoming adults in the modern world often fills the connection between who we are out there and our true inner creative self with static. So, for me — The cure isn't curing the essence of who we are as humans or creatives. It is curing that connection. I feel like we are all susceptible to it in some way. Our attention spans are fractured. We have a rate of change that is, I feel, really unsustainable for the human psyche to absorb in our lifetimes. In this era, we've absorbed more change than previous generations might in two or three generations. So I feel like a lot of us can feel hurried and frantic and just out of sorts, and that will become evident in our creative work. So, for me, it's not so much curing the true person. It's looking at what practices can I bring in that will strengthen and revitalize that connection. Joanna: Yes, I get you on the pace of change. On the day we're recording this, just yesterday, Microsoft announced this new quantum state of matter. I was like, seriously, haven't we got enough going on? Do we need something else again? So it does definitely feel like that. So you mentioned there's some things that can help us maybe break through that static to fix that connection with our creativity if we're feeling like we've lost it. I like the word static, actually. I think sometimes it really does feel like that, just a bit disconnected. What are some of the creative practices you recommend? Jacob: One thing that I love to recommend as a starting point is a ritual. Ritual can sound kind of mystical or complicated. To me, it's really a state of awareness. So let's just say we make our cup of coffee in the morning and run out the door and gulp it as we drive, that's one way. Another way would be to slow down and say, “I am creating this cup of coffee,” and bring all of our attention and intention into the process of it, which changes our experience of it. I love to invite people who are sitting down to write to create some version of a ritual, so they realize they are entering a different state of awareness. Our awareness is so yanked in different directions. We jump on social media, and we see distressing things. We see all these things coming around, and we often don't realize that we take that fractured or static-filled state of being or awareness into what we're doing, which means that we're not really allowing the pure stuff to come through as easily. It can feel harder. So I love creating these personal rituals. Whether it's as simple as lighting a candle, it can be almost anything. The real keys here are the attention and intention that I bring. It's an interesting shift, like to invite ourselves in there and notice that, oh, in this space, I feel quite different. I feel I have access to different ideas, a different way of expressing. I'll just use this morning as an example. I woke up, and it's really cold here in Northern USA. It's gray outside, and I wasn't feeling particularly inspired. So I went to my favorite little coffee shop with my journal, and this will be another practice I'll talk about in a moment, but asked myself to enter a different state of awareness. So, for me, one item is creating these small rituals that help us intentionally shift into a different state of mind. Joanna: Well, since you mentioned journals, maybe talk more about that. Jacob: Well, you're aware of The Artist's Way and Morning Pages, and that's where I started with that, really in earnest. I also realized that many people don't find a whole lot of value in just long form, sort of dumping it out on paper. I do. I'm a writer. That's one of my favorite ways of expressing and exploring. So over time, I developed a set of three questions, and I've shared this. When I first created this years ago, Jo, I put it out and was pretty sure it was way too basic and didn't have a

What are the tropes and reader expectations for action adventure thrillers? Why publish into KU and what are some of the ways to market there? How can travel enrich your writing? Luke Richardson gives his tips. In the intro, ProWritingAid launches their Manuscript Analysis tool; Navigating legal risk in memoir [The Indy Author]; Social media for authors in 2025 [BookBub]; Amazon relaunches Alexa, now Alexa+ which is now powered by Claude AI; Scribe, the world’s most accurate transcription model [ElevenLabs]; ElevenReader Publishing to the Reader app; Death Valley, A Thriller by J.F. Penn. Today's show is sponsored by ProWritingAid, writing and editing software that goes way beyond just grammar and typo checking. With its detailed reports on how to improve your writing and integration with writing software, ProWritingAid will help you improve your book before you send it to an editor, agent or publisher. Check it out for free or get 15% off the premium edition at www.ProWritingAid.com/joanna This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Luke Richardson is the bestselling author of the Eden Black Archaeological Thrillers and the International Detective thriller series. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Taking the leap into full-time indie authorship Reasons for unpublishing books and maintaining your author brand Researching the tropes and market of your genre The purpose of a prologue and when to include one Tips for writing characters that are unlike yourself Turning travels into stories Why publish in KU instead of wide? Selling non-book items or experiences You can find Luke at LukeRichardsonAuthor.com and his new podcast at AdventureStoryPodcast.com. Transcript of Interview with Luke Richardson Joanna: Luke Richardson is the bestselling author of the Eden Black Archeological Thrillers and the International Detective thriller series. So welcome to the show, Luke. Luke: Hi, Jo. Thank you for having me. This is wonderful to be able to talk to you. Joanna: I'm excited about it. First up— Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and self-publishing. Luke: It's been one of those sort of roundabout ways that a lot of people talk about, but I often cite—this is something I've written on my profiles and written emails about. I often cite my first arriving in India in 2011 as the reason I wanted to write. It was just this transformational moment of being totally culture shocked in a completely different place in a way that I couldn't describe and couldn't really explain. We'd come out of the airport, we're into this taxi going past the slum villages on the edges of this freeway that's sort of 16 lanes wide. There's donkeys, and sports cars, and tractors, and all of this going on. It was just so overwhelming. Although I didn't write for several years after that, it was that excitement about stuff, and the world, and discovery, and adventure that lodged in me. Then when I started to write, those things started to come out of me. Do you know what I mean? They started to come out in my writing. Joanna: That's so funny. We're going to get into travel because you and I are travel geeks. I also remember arriving in India, would have been about five years before that, in the middle of the night in an airport in—it wasn't Delhi—but it was one of the biggest cities. It was like crazy, crazy. So that culture shock is really interesting. How did you then get into indie publishing, as opposed to maybe going traditional? Luke: I was an English teacher in a high school for several years, under the illusions that it would be a creative thing to do because I've always been very creative. I've always loved that. For the first couple of years, it actually was quite creative. Then, I think as I'd done the same classes four or five or six times, over and over again, it became less so. Then I started writing. I came up with this idea for a book, and I was like, great. It was actually set in Kathmandu, and it's the first book in my International Detective series. Someone who's like me in 2011, in the back of that taxi, totally overwhelmed, tasked with finding a missing person in this city that they've never been to. They don't speak the language, they don't know the culture, and they've got to go and find this person. I came up with that idea based on my travels, based on the things that I've done. It was really just a creative outlet. It was a passion. It was something I wanted to do outside of work. Then I finished the book, and I did that thing which we've all done, I think, and you fold your arms, and you go, huh? Half of us is really impressed that you finished this thing, and the other half's like, what do I do now? What do I do with it? I gave my mum a copy and a couple of other friends, and then I went down the rabbit hole of learning about publishing and how to get it out in the world. Your podcast, and other podcasts, and online courses, and YouTube videos, and all this sort of thing. I never tried the traditional route. I was far too impetuous. I wanted to get on with the next book. So I learned about indie publishing and published it in 2019. Joanna: Are you still a teacher? Luke: No, no. I left just before the pandemic. So I quit then. I needed a change, which was great, actually, because it meant I had the whole time of those few years to really focus on my writing. It built up slowly, as these things do. So the first year was quite tough. I had to do some freelance work on the side and do some other writing, sort of freelance writing and things. Then, when was it? I think it was two years ago that it became the job, and now we've surpassed the teaching. It's become more successful than the teaching was, so I'm really excited about. Joanna: I think this is a really good point. You left your job in 2019, and it was 2024 when your income surpassed your old job? Luke: Yes, income from books. I mean, we couldn't travel anyway because travel was off the table at that time, so it was a good time to not spend much money anyway. So I've lived quite a frugal life whilst I was doing that and did some freelance work on the side. I really just started again, I suppose you'd say, in a professional capacity. Built up the mailing list, built up the socials, learned about all these things. What I decided, I think, is that I needed to give it a proper chance. I think if I wanted to do it as a hobby, writing in the evenings and the weekends was fine. If I wanted to do it as a job, and I wanted this to be my life, I needed to give it space. So that was the decision. I didn't love teaching at that point. I was ready for a change. So, yes, I think that was a good decision. It's worked out well in the end, obviously, too. Joanna: So you mentioned the word job there. I feel like this is so important, and I've talked about this before. Having a hobby is amazing, and for most people, writing as a hobby is brilliant and probably what most people should do. As you mentioned, the word job, and that is how we make our living with books or word-adjacent things. So what does that job entail for you? That perhaps when you wrote that first book, when you were a teacher, you didn't even think about? I feel like a lot of people coming in don't understand what the job of an author is, or let alone the job of an indie author. Luke: That's true. There's so much to it. There's the production side, which is obviously the writing, the researching, the actual making the book. I don't just mean research in terms of what's in the book, I mean research of what does the market need. Now, I'm not saying you need to write to market necessarily, but you need to—I think not need, that's the wrong way to say it. It's not prescriptive, but it helps if you have an understanding of what the market likes, if that makes sense. You don't necessarily have to follow tropes. This is an issue, isn't it, I think with indie publishing. You can do whatever you want, but with that comes great challenges as well because whatever you want is massive. No one wants to read a book that's everything, right? It needs to be something. It needs to pin its colors to the mast. Some colors to one mast or another. It can't be everything to everyone. So you need to decide at some point where that is, and who your reader is, and what they like and those sorts of things. It's easier if you're writing in a genre that is popular, that is easy to communicate, that is easy for people to understand. I suppose that helps as well. So, yes, that's production. There's also sort of the business side of it. We're at the end of January now. I've had a really boring week of tax returns and these sorts of things. There's the marketing side. There's running the newsletter and the social media and all of this sort of stuff, which needs to be done and should be enjoyed, if possible. Joanna: I love that you said earlier that it took almost five years, I guess, for the money to get back up to where it was. It was the same for me. When I left my original consulting job in 2011, I took a massive pay cut. It took until 2015 before I started making more than I used to make, and have done ever since, by the way. So hopefully that encourages you. Luke: Thank you. Yes, I hope so. Joanna: So how many books do you have now? Like when you talk about the job and the production— What's your schedule for putting books out? Because you are writing genre fiction, basically. Luke: I have written around 20 now. A couple of out of print because they didn't really match th

How can you use Kickstarter to help bring your creative vision into reality? What are some of the biggest mistakes authors make? What are some tips to ensure your campaign is a success? Oriana Leckert shares her expertise. In the intro, AI-narrated audiobooks from ElevenLabs will now be accepted on Spotify through FindawayVoices; A Midwinter Sacrifice by J.F. Penn with my voice clone for the Author's Note on Spotify; BookVault introduce boxsets and slipcases; Managing your finances [Becca Syme]; How to write non-fiction [EOLU Podcast]; Thoughts on the Berlin film market; Death Valley – A Thriller. Today's show is sponsored by my patrons! Join my community and get access to extra videos on writing craft, author business, AI and behind the scenes info, plus an extra Q&A show a month where I answer Patron questions. It's about the same as a black coffee a month! Join the community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn Oriana Leckert is the head of publishing at Kickstarter, as well as an author, freelance writer, editor, and consultant. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Types of Kickstarter campaigns for authors Unique rewards to offer your backers Biggest mistakes authors make for a campaign that doesn't fund Bringing your own backers vs. discovery from Kickstarter Tips for creating a visually pleasing page The importance of a pre-launch page Making sure your Kickstarter gets approved Creating a detailed budget for your rewards You can find Oriana and more about Kickstarter at Kickstarter.com/creators/publishing and Kickstarter.com/publishing. Transcript of Interview with Oriana Leckert Joanna: Oriana Leckert is the head of publishing at Kickstarter, as well as an author, freelance writer, editor, and consultant. So welcome to the show, Oriana. Oriana: Jo, I'm so excited to be here talking with you. Thank you so much for having me. Joanna: It's great to have you on the show. So first up, just in case— What is Kickstarter, for anyone who doesn't know? What is your role there? How did you become involved in the publishing side of things? Oriana: Absolutely. So Kickstarter is a crowdfunding platform. We are unique in the crowdfunding landscape for a few reasons. We are only for creative projects, so you can't use Kickstarter for medical bills, investment funding, charitable donations. Every Kickstarter project has to create something new to share with the world. Kickstarter is also a public benefit corporation, which is a sort of legal and business charter that turns us basically into a mission-driven for-profit organization. So our mission is to bring creative projects to life. Everything we do comes back to bringing more creativity into the world through that structure. We are also quite a progressive company. We do 5% after-tax profit donations every year to organizations fighting systemic inequality and doing music and arts education. We are very transparent about our tax contributions, the salary difference between our CEO and the median staff salary. So we do all sorts of things that make us, what I believe, a really ethical place to be and a force for hopefully good in the world. My role is head of publishing. So I've been a Kickstarter six years, which is the longest I've been at any company, actually. I came here to grow our journalism category at the very end of 2018. I have done journalism, I've done comics, I've done publishing. It, sort of unexpected to me, is the best job I've ever had. Which is slightly corny, but worth saying. I can't believe I get to do this work all the time. My background is about half and half digital media and traditional publishing, so I've spent most of my career fully focused on books and the written word in one way or another. I generally describe my job here as one part literary industry expert, one part crowdfunding consultant, one part life coach, and one part cheerleader. So those are the various roles I get to play for my creators. I also get to be out in the world all the time doing wonderful things like this, just kind of talking about Kickstarter and helping people get a better understanding of what it's for, how you can use it, the benefit for authors and creative people of all stripes. Joanna: Oh, that's great. You are a cheerleader. I love your energy. You bring such a great energy. I do feel like Kickstarter, obviously, is a company, but it does have that very creative feel. So I really appreciate that. I've also met you a couple of times in Vegas over the last few years, and so I thought we'd start there. What have you seen in terms of the changes in the author community over the last few years? What are the types of Kickstarter campaigns that authors do? Obviously, we're not all Brandon Sanderson (whose campaign made over $41 million!). Oriana: That's a great question. It's been pretty exciting. So I was hired by Margot Atwell, who held this role, also, for five or six years. I really see a pretty strong through line from her work to mine. The amount of change in perception from authors, publishers, illustrators, toward Kickstarter, the shift has been absolutely massive. I mean, certainly when Margot started, and even when I started, there was a lot of sort of bewilderment, hedging toward distrust, and people thought Kickstarter was just for desperate people who couldn't get a book deal through the traditional systems. The change has been so dramatic of people understanding that — Kickstarter can be transformative for an author's career — and that it can work for traditional publishing, indie publishing, hybrid publishing, all kinds of authors.  I mean, obviously I'm in the bag for Kickstarter, but there are so many ways that it can be tremendously helpful. Kickstarter is really about collapsing the boundaries between a writer and their readers, a publisher and their fan base, any creative person and their audience. There's so many benefits to doing that. You get to thrill your backers with new and exciting rewards. You get to turn what can be a sort of, not boring, but like just a standard book release, into a moment. You get to build your brand, your profile, get press. You get to test out ambitious projects. You get to understand so much more about your audience —  and what they want and how you can give it to them. So, yes, going to shows like Author Nation, formerly 20Books, was a real revelation for me. Margot's work was mostly concentrated on the traditional publishing industry and getting to know the people who are really driving forward indie publishing and self-publishing and owning their own author careers. It's been really marvelous getting to make a lot of inroads into that world and seeing the great success that people can have on our platform and outside of it. Joanna: You mentioned there that you can thrill backers with new and exciting rewards, but I feel like many people listening might not even know what kind of rewards they would do. The word “reward”, it's quite a different word if people haven't been involved with Kickstarter. For an author, what are the kind of rewards that people are doing? Oriana: I love that question because, to me, the rewards are really like at the heart of the Kickstarter proposition and what makes this kind of fundraising so interesting and kind of thrilling. Basically, Kickstarter, your process is that you're inviting people on a creative journey. You're saying, I'm going to make this cool thing. I want your support, and in exchange, you're going to get stuff. You're going to get to be part of my process. Your main reward is going to be your book, or your series — or, if you're a publishing company, your season. Whatever it is, that's your main tier, and then you're going to build everything else out above and below that. Then a lot of people think the rewards means swag or merch, which is fine, but merch can really add a lot to your production costs. It's causing you to learn how to produce all kinds of things that maybe you've never done before. So that's not the only way to do it. If you're going to do some merch, I think it's nice to come up with some custom items that feel really related to the work that you're doing. If you've got a romance novel with a pivotal scene on the beach, maybe you make some candles that smell like the ocean. Maybe you do some kind of handkerchief that's printed with the pattern of the dress that your heroine is wearing. You can really think beyond merch, into digital rewards, experiential rewards. There's a lot of parts of the writing process that can be sort of like pulled out and packaged as rewards. Things like notes from the field, outtakes, deleted scenes. I've had people write bloopers, as if it were like a comedy movie, like added new scenes or novellas, other pieces from different works that you've done. Certainly, your back list and other books that you've written, those can all be included. We've seen people do tours of the writer’s studio, things like that. Also think about what skills you have in addition to your writing. Perhaps you are excellent at marketing, or social media, or poetry. You can offer webinars on those sorts of things, other kinds of ways that people can experience the creative practice that you have. Then you can get into like high-end exclusive one-off, crazy rewards. One whole section of rewards I love is naming rights. We've seen all kinds of “We'll name the dragon after your dog. We'll name the illness after your mother in law. We'll name the hero after your son.” There's a LitRPG novelist named Matt Dinniman, who did this really well. He writes these big cast

How do you keep the happiness and joy in your writing practice, along with managing the business side of being an author? Marissa Meyer gives her tips. In the intro, How authors can price their books for profit [Self-Publishing with ALLi]; How to recover from author burnout [Self-Publishing Advice]; my Brooke and Daniel crime series in KU; Day of the Vikings; Outback Days and City Nights in the Lucky Country – Books and Travel; replanning with Calendarpedia. Today's show is sponsored by Draft2Digital, self-publishing with support, where you can get free formatting, free distribution to multiple stores, and a host of other benefits. Just go to www.draft2digital.com to get started. This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Marissa Meyer is the New York Times bestselling author of fantasy romance and graphic novels, including The Lunar Chronicles. The Happy Writer: Get More Ideas, Write More Words, and Find More Joy from First Draft to Publication and Beyond is her latest book for authors. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Finding joy and happiness in your creative process Tips for finishing a first draft when you hit a wall Ways to fill your creative well How to make your research methods more fun Coming up for new ideas within a series Managing your to-do list and learning when to say no Remaining positive when querying and pitching Finding joy in book marketing You can find Marissa at MarissaMeyer.com or on Instagram @MarissaMeyerAuthor. Transcript of Interview with Marissa Meyer Joanna: Marissa Meyer is the New York Times bestselling author of fantasy romance and graphic novels, including The Lunar Chronicles. The Happy Writer: Get More Ideas, Write More Words, and Find More Joy from First Draft to Publication and Beyond is her latest book for authors. So welcome to the show, Marissa. Marissa: Hi. Thank you so much for having me. Joanna: It's great to have you on. So first up— Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and publishing. Marissa: Oh, goodness. I always wanted to be a writer. I am one of those. I was a huge reader growing up, loved stories, had a big imagination. So, really, from the time that I was a little kid, I started making up stories and telling them to my parents, asking them to write them down into little books for me. Then as I got older, I, of course, started writing them myself. Then — At some point I realized that this is a job. This is something that people actually can get paid for. You could actually get paid to come up with stories and get your name printed on a book. I think I realized really early on that that was for me, and that's what I wanted to do with my life. So I kept writing. As a teenager, I got really into fan fiction and credit that a lot with learning how to tell a complete story. Beginning, middle, end. I got my bachelor's degree in creative writing and a master's degree in publishing because I thought writing might be a difficult career to break into. I wanted to have a backup plan, and thought, well, if this writing thing doesn't pan out, maybe I can be an editor, maybe I can be a publicist or an agent or something. The deeper I got into learning about publishing, the more it really just cemented how passionate I was about writing and how much I just really wanted to be the writer in this publishing equation. So I wrote many multiple manuscripts that went nowhere, but eventually got the idea for a Cinderella retelling about a cyborg, a futuristic retelling. So that became my debut novel, Cinder. Joanna: Wow. Okay, so it’s really interesting that you did publishing as a degree, as well as writing. Did you have a job before you became a full-time author? Like did you work in the publishing industry? Or did you just go straight from uni into full-time writer? Marissa: No, I did. From university, I got a job as an editor at a very small publishing house in Seattle. That publisher focused mostly on fine art books. So those beautiful coffee table books that you get at museum exhibits and art galleries. You know those books. So it had virtually nothing to do with my ultimate career of being a fiction writer, but it taught me a lot about just the behind the scenes, what goes into creating a book, and the actual production of it, the marketing of it, all of these various aspects. So I did that for five years, and then I spent about a year as a freelance typesetter and proofreader. At which point my first novel sold, and I got to become a full-time writer. Joanna: That's very cool. I love that you did typesetting and stuff like that. We'll come back to the business side, but let's get into the book. So you use the words “happy” and “joy” in the book title, but I feel like many writers think suffering and pain is more of a hallmark of the creative process. If writers are not feeling the ‘joy' and the ‘happy' right now, what are some tips for getting back to that? Marissa: Thank you so much for asking this question. It is so funny to me that we do have this stereotype of the writer. That you must be struggling in order to create art, and you must be suffering some way. If it's not painful, then how can you possibly call it quality? This stereotype really bugs me, and I'm really trying to dismantle it with this book. But that said, we're also not shying away from the fact that writing, it's not just fun and play all the time. There are struggles, there are challenges, no matter where you are on your journey. Whether you're suffering from writer's block or burnout, whether you're in the query trenches and you're facing rejection or criticism. There's a million things, of course, that can be roadblocks in our path to being happier writers. That is largely what this book is about, trying to refocus our attention, not on all the things that can go wrong, not on all of the struggles that we face, but looking at the things that we really do love and enjoy about the craft of writing. The hobby, the career. We get into it because we do have a passion. It's not the sort of job or hobby that most of us take on just for the heck of it. I mean —  You start writing because you love to write. So I really encourage writers to find what it is that appeals to them about this. Do you love the process of taking a messy, complicated plot and fitting it together like a big jigsaw puzzle and that satisfying feeling when everything comes together? Or do you love that you have the freedom to go to a cafe with your laptop and sip lattes all day and stare out at the people and let the world inspire you? Or maybe you love the research process and learning about things that you are so curious and interested in and just want to do deep dives into it. There's a lot of things that we can find joy and satisfaction in. So that's going to be different for every writer, and that's going to be different based on where you are, both in the process of writing a particular book, but also where you are in your overall career. I always encourage writers to go back to that. What can I find joy in today? Joanna: I love the research. I also love saying with a finished book, “I made this.” I always enjoy holding that book in my hand. You, coming from this fine art books thing you did early on, I guess you must love the really beautiful special editions and all that as well. Marissa: Oh, I love it, and the smell! I love the smell of a new book. You don't always get it when a lot of books these days just come in like a cardboard box, but some of these special editions will come wrapped in plastic, and so they still maintain the smell of the ink and the binding glue. Ah, I just nerd out over it. Joanna: Well, and that is important too, isn't it? I feel like we've come around to that. Like there was a lot of focus on digital for a while, especially for independent authors, but now it's really come round to beautiful, physical products. That, to me, is a very exciting part of the process, finishing the whole thing with something beautiful. That satisfaction is really part of it. Marissa: Absolutely. I'm really big on celebrations. I think it's so important to take a moment and say, “I made this thing. I accomplished this. I had a goal. I had a dream, and I kept moving. It took months or years or decades, but I did it.” That is such a huge part of the process. It's really easy—and especially like for me, I'm about 20 books now into my career— it can be easy to be like, “Oh, just another one. Set it on the shelf, and keep on working on the next deadline.” I really have tried to be very conscientious about it. No, let's pause. Let's pop some champagne. Let's take a night off. Let's get a massage. Like, what is it that's going to make me feel like, yes, I've done it again, and I'm really proud of this moment. Joanna: That's great. Well, you do have a section on the writing process in the book. Of course, every author is different, but if people haven't got to that 20 books place— Tell us how you get that first draft done. Any tips for actually finishing a book? Which I know some people have an issue with. Marissa: Finishing is hard. I think it's important for people to know that everyone struggles with finishing. We talk a lot about the siren song of the next project because at some point in every book you're going to reach that point where you're in the murky middle and it feels endless. You're confused about the plot, you're frustrated that things aren't going well, and suddenly you get a sparkly new idea for the next thing. It's so easy

How can you use short stories to improve your writing craft across different genres? How can you make money from licensing your short stories in different ways? How do you structure a short story collection? Douglas Smith shares his tips. In the intro, S&S imprint says that authors no longer need to get blurbs for their books [The Guardian]; James Patterson will be headlining Author Nation 2025; How to sell books from a table [Novel Marketing Podcast]; My lessons learned about screenwriting; Death Valley, a Thriller. Today's show is sponsored by ProWritingAid, writing and editing software that goes way beyond just grammar and typo checking. With its detailed reports on how to improve your writing and integration with writing software, ProWritingAid will help you improve your book before you send it to an editor, agent or publisher. Check it out for free or get 15% off the premium edition at www.ProWritingAid.com/joanna This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Douglas Smith is a multi-award-winning Canadian author of novels, short stories and nonfiction, with over 200 short fiction publications in 36 countries and 27 languages. He's also the author of Playing the Short Game: How to Market and Sell Short Fiction, now out in its second edition. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes How beginner writers can use short fiction to improve their writing craft Overview of the different short story markets First rights and second rights for selling short stories Financial expectations for traditionally published short stories Tips for self-publishing a collection Benefits of exclusive short stories Using Spotify playlists as a discoverability mechanism – here's a playlist of my short stories on Spotify How to market a second edition You can find Doug at SmithWriter.com. Transcript of Interview with Douglas Smith Joanna: Douglas Smith is a multi-award-winning Canadian author of novels, short stories and nonfiction, with over 200 short fiction publications in 36 countries and 27 languages. He's also the author of Playing the Short Game: How to Market and Sell Short Fiction, now out in its second edition. So welcome back to the show, Doug. Douglas: Oh, thank you, Joanna. It's great to be here. Thanks for having me back. Joanna: Oh, yes. So first up­— Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and short stories, in particular. Douglas: Well, I guess I did a fair bit of writing in high school and a bit in university. Then I just drifted away from it, pursuing a business career and raising a family, etc. I always told myself I would go back and chase the writing dream someday. I remember, I was in my early 40s, and I came back from a family vacation, and one of the first things I read was the obituary for one of my all-time favorite writers, Roger Zelazny. He was the American science fiction fantasy writer, and he had died far too early at, I think, 56 from cancer. That just drove home the fact that none of us are guaranteed of a someday. So I started writing that summer and turned out about eight short stories. I joined a writing group to get feedback on my writing. Then about a year and a half later, it was actually on New Year's Eve of the following year, I got my first acceptance letter. So that was a great way to end a year and start a new one. So that's how I started. I started with short fiction. I started because one of my favorite writers died far too young. Joanna: What was your previous career? Douglas: I was an IT executive. Just in case people are wondering, I remained an IT executive. I did not give up the day job, so writing was done in spare time. Especially when I started with short fiction, it's very hard to live and raise a family on the proceeds of short stories. Joanna: I think that's a really important thing to say. I suspected you were going to say that. Then just with perspective— So what year was it that you did that first sale? Douglas: That story came out in '97, so a long time ago. That story actually ended up winning an award. So, yes, it was a good start, but I stayed with writing short fiction for about 10 years. Part of that was inertia, and part of it was just writing a novel at that time seemed kind of daunting. I finally did decide that I needed, for the same someday issue, that I wanted to move into novels, and I better not wait any longer. Joanna: Yes. I mean, obviously the publishing industry is quite different from 1997, and we'll come back to some of the other markets. What have you noticed with short fiction in particular, or in general with the indie author community, and things changing? I mean— This book, Playing the Short Game, you self-published this, right? Douglas: Yes, I did, and my novels as well. My collections, which were the first things I put out, they came out from traditional publishers that are small press publishers, one in the UK and one in Canada. When it came to the point where I was ready to publish my first novel, for me, I saw no upside in trying to go a traditional publishing route. Ironically, my advice is quite different for short fiction. One, I think writers should start with short fiction and that they should pursue the traditional short story markets that are, if anything, far more numerous now than when I started. Thanks to the option of a lot of these short fiction magazines or anthologies, they put out ebook editions, so it's a lot easier. You don't have to worry about the physical distribution, physical production of the magazines. There's still a lot of print magazines around, still a lot of print anthologies, but you'll find there's a lot of options for selling short fiction. Much more than when I started. Joanna: So let's get to some of the pros and cons, I guess. So you said there you do think fiction authors should start with short stories. Why do you recommend that? Why write short stories? What is fun about it? What are the good craft reasons? Douglas: Yes, it is fun. I mean, if you do not like short fiction as a reader, it's going to be difficult for you to be successful as a writer. So that would be the first thing. The standard advice for any writer is you've got to be a reader. If you don't read, you're not going to be a writer. Why short fiction to start with? My main, strongest argument is that it helps you learn your craft. It teaches you how to be a writer. There are far too many indie novels out there that are, quite frankly, terrible. The good thing with short fiction is that it gives you a method where you can try out a lot of different types of stories, types of story structure. You can basically build your toolbox as a writer, and many of those tools are the same ones you're going to need if you move onto novels. The other thing is it gives you a benchmark. If you're writing short stories and sending them out to professional markets—and I assume we'll get into that—you get a wonderful little measuring stick for when you've become a professional writer. Or in other words, when your writing has become good enough that someone out there wants to pay you money to publish it, in the hopes that they will make money from what they publish. So if you don't do that, if you just jump into indie and send your stories out into the world, put them up on retail sites, quite frankly, it's probably not going to be a very good piece of writing. It's hard to develop a craft. One of the complaints I have with a lot of the indie writers out there is, and you see it if you go to convention, all they focus on is, “I've written a book. Now, how can I market it? Please tell me the secret to beating an algorithm.” There are good marketing approaches. The problem is, if you come up with a good marketing approach for your novel, your first novel, it's probably going to do you more harm than good. Because if you get a lot of people to read it, and they read it and say, this is not very good, they're never going to come back to your writing. As opposed to if you've taught yourself the craft of writing, and you become a competent writer, and you get to the point where professional publishers are willing to give you money for your short stories, your writing has reached that point. So when you move to a novel, it's going to be a different beast than short stories, but you're going to have a lot of the skills already in place that you've honed over the time you've been writing short fiction. So that's my main argument for writing short stories, is that it teaches you how to be a writer. One more thing is, the example I love to give is, you can try a lot more points of view: first person, third person. Different story structures, things you want to try. Genres: horror, science fiction, fantasy, mainstream. You can try more of those over 25,000-word short stories than you can in one 100,000-word novel. You've written the same number of words, but you're going to come out at the end of those 20 short stories being much more knowledgeable and a better writer than writing that first 100,000 word novel. Joanna: I mean, I totally agree with you there in terms of the potential for doing shorter stories. I mean, you said 5000 words. What is a short story range, in terms of word count? Because people often get obsessed with this. Douglas: Yes, and the definitions I'll give are from the Science Fiction Fantasy Writers Association. So a short story is anything up to, I think it's 7500 words. Then a novelette is above that, up to 17,750 or 17,500, I can't remember which. Then a novella is above that, up to 40,000 words. Then fl

Why is ‘story' more important than ‘writing'? How can you write characters that engage the reader? And how can you sell more books by connecting authentically? Douglas Vigliotti shares his tips. In the intro, Bookshop.org will start selling ebooks [TechCrunch]; LinkedIn for Book Promotion [ALLi]; The Money Making Expert, branding and marketing [DOAC]; 24 Assets – Daniel Priestley; My J.F. Penn books by location; Death Valley, A Thriller; Copyright and Artificial Intelligence [US Copyright Office]; Superagency: What could possibly go right with our AI Future – Reid Hoffman and Greg Beato This podcast is sponsored by Kobo Writing Life, which helps authors self-publish and reach readers in global markets through the Kobo eco-system. You can also subscribe to the Kobo Writing Life podcast for interviews with successful indie authors. This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Douglas Vigliotti is the author of four books, a poet, and podcaster. His latest book is Aristotle for Novelists: 14 Timeless Principles on the Art of Story. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Why Aristotle? Creating characters that resonate with our readers — and the four important elements to keep in mind Why story is more important than writing Creating complications that make readers want to read on The intersection of commerce and art Tips for pitching podcast interviews You can find Douglas at DouglasVigliotti.com and his latest book at AristotleForNovelists.com. Transcript of Interview with Douglas Vigliotti Joanna: Douglas Vigliotti is the author of four books, a poet, and podcaster. His latest book is Aristotle for Novelists: 14 Timeless Principles on the Art of Story. So welcome to the show, Doug. Douglas: Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure to be here. Joanna: It's great to have you on the show. So first up, just— Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing. Douglas: My journey is long and winding, but that's probably similar to most writers. I grew up as a pretty, I would say, average or normal American childhood. Youngest of five boys, played hockey, played sports. Believe it or not, writing and books and all of that was not even a thought in my mind until I reached probably my 20s, early 20s, mid 20s. Then kind of a light switch turned on. The first book that I ever wrote, and the first writing that I ever did publicly, was actually a derivative of my business career. It took me following my interest, and growing as a writer and as an artist, to start exploring that more creative side of writing. Then that's how I ended up writing novels and poetry and all that good stuff. Joanna: What was that business? Douglas: My professional career, I started, let's see, 20 years ago. It was sales, selling. I've sold everything from financial services, to medical devices, to payroll and tax filing, to myself. Then I wrote a business book called The Salesperson Paradox, and it was in conjunction with my sales consulting company at the time, and that was how I started into my creative career. So it was totally, totally orthogonal to where I ended up. Joanna: Well, or not. We're going to come back to that because I love this. I love that you have a sales person background. Just so you know, I'm actually the eldest of five children. Obviously, not all boys. So being of five siblings, I completely get, which is very cool. Let's get into the book itself. In case people don't know— Who was Aristotle? Why write a book based on his work? Douglas: So I think in modern day, we throw around the name Aristotle quite a bit because it's referenced a lot in pop culture. I think it's one of those things where you hear the name and you assume—I don't know what you assume. You assume smart, you assume historic, you assume legendary. People probably don't know who he is, and that's always an interesting thing. The fact that he's lasted over 2300 years is something of a testament to itself. So he was a philosopher and a polymath, really. I think his life, it was 384 BC to 322 BC. He studied under Plato, and Plato studied under Socrates before him. When I said he was a polymath, that's really essential to understanding who he is, because he wrote over 200 works that spanned across a plethora of topics. From politics, to economics, to poetics, and all of these different subject matters that ended up becoming, in some cases, the foundational material for many of these disciplines in universities across the world. So the fact that his ideas and his philosophies and concepts have stood the test of time is sort of a testament in itself, as I alluded to. One of the interesting things about those 200 works is that many of them, call it 80%, so I think we've only recovered 30-something of his works. I mean, the number is kind of debated. I don't know how they quantify this, because if they're lost, how do we know how many we recovered? But they've only recovered 30-something of his works. One of those is Poetics. So that is actually the nature of tragedies, but more broadly, storytelling. It's one of the major reasons why I ended up writing this book, obviously. Joanna: You didn't say there that we're talking about Ancient Greece. So we're in Europe. I often think Americans forget that it all started over here in Europe. Douglas: Sorry, I tend to skip over things sometimes, but you are correct. Ancient Greece. Joanna: It's funny because we seem to be at this period in history, in literature, when people just refer a lot to, obviously, the Stoic Movement and a lot about Marcus Aurelius. Obviously, Roman emperor, but the empire that came after the Greeks. A lot of this is resurfacing, isn't it, in culture? Do you think there's some kind of zeitgeist where this is all coming back? Douglas: So in a general sense, or in a broad sense, I think it's more comfortable for people to reference people who are already gone, so to speak. I don't think it's as easy for people to credit living legends or living thinkers as it is to credit people who are gone. So I think there's something to that. I also think that there's something to the idea of grabbing onto something that gives people a framework to think that they know, even though they might not really know. Like foundational philosophical thinkers, they were at some of these topics first, so they have some really strong ideas around a plethora of things. So I think when we bring them to life, to this day and age, we realize, wow, there's really—and I'm going to use a biblical quote here, not to be religious—but it's nothing new under the sun. We are living these same issues over and over and over again, and I just think that there's a lot of resonance for that. Look, I think there's a certain thing to nostalgia that we have as a society. It's a saleable commodity. I didn't write this book because I was trying to fill a void with Aristotle and his ideas and storytelling. To me, when I started to research story as a concept, everything started funneling back to Aristotle. Then I realized, wow, everything is there. You know, it was how I learned about story. So the fact that Aristotle, his ideas in this book came to fruition, was more of a function of me realizing that all the theorists in modern day, or practitioners for that matter—so people in the dramatic world, like Aaron Sorkin or David Mamet or a lot of these people, they'll often reference Aristotle. Or if you read theorists like Robert McKee, they'll often reference Aristotle. So for me, it was only natural to then double down on Aristotle, and read Poetics, and read multiple translations of Poetics, and really understand the text. Then what I quickly realized was how resonant these ideas were in modern storytelling, on both the screen, the page, and in our lives. I think that that's one of the big things that drew Aristotle to storytelling in general was how intrinsically linked it is to living, because we live stories. So I think that the principles that we'll talk about, or some of these ideas that we'll talk about, they are applicable to our life, as well as they are applicable on the page and on the screen. Joanna: Yes, and of course that quote you mentioned is from the book of Ecclesiastes. I quote that in a number of my novels, actually. It's probably my favorite book of the Bible, Ecclesiastes. I think part of that is what you're talking about, is that — There are principles in human nature, as well as principles in story, that don't change, regardless of how many millennia go past. I was thinking as you were talking, like maybe part of the reason we're re-latching onto this now is because there's so much change in the world. With AI, and technology, and social media, and all this constant stream of stuff that there is— Maybe we're sort of harking back to things that don't change, and that perhaps helps a little. Douglas: I totally agree with you. I think when we're talking about stories specifically, there are a couple fundamental elements that are there in almost every story that we tell, at least in Western society. In Western society, the stories we tell, almost all of them, even in sprawling epics or multiple storyline plots and all this stuff, they have three characteristics that are always there. That's a protagonist who wants something, and there's obstacles standing in their way. Those obstacles come both externally and internally. I think if we zoom out and we look at our lives, Joanna Penn's life, Douglas Vigliotti's life, I'm a protagonist who wants something, and I have obstacles standi

How does generative AI relate to fair use when it comes to copyright? What are the possibilities for AI licensing? Alicia Wright shares her thoughts on generative AI for authors. In the intro, Publishing leaders share 9 Bold Predictions for 2025 [BookBub]; OpenAI launches Operator [The Verge]; Bertelsmann (who own Penguin Random House) intends to work with OpenAI to expand and accelerate the use of artificial intelligence (AI) in the media, services, and education sectors; Death Valley — A Thriller. Today's show is sponsored by my patrons! Join my community and get access to extra videos on writing craft, author business, AI and behind the scenes info, plus an extra Q&A show a month where I answer Patron questions. It's about the same as a black coffee a month! Join the community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn Alicia Wright is an intellectual property lawyer for a technology company, and also writes science fiction and mystery as Alicia Ellis. With two degrees in computer science and an MFA in writing popular fiction, she is expertly placed to comment on AI as it applies to writers. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Using AI as a brainstorming partner and collaborator AI as fair use because it creates something transformative Using the right prompts to produce quality outputs from AI AI is the next technological change in our society Licensing your IP for training and AI usage — what to look for in contracts Training the AI systems to include your work in generative searches Developing your authorial voice and creative confidence Uitlizing AI agents in your author business You can find Alicia at WriterAlicia.com and on social media @WriterAlicia. Transcript of Interview with Alicia Wright Joanna: Alicia Wright is an intellectual property lawyer for a technology company, and also writes science fiction and mystery as Alicia Ellis. With two degrees in computer science and an MFA in writing popular fiction, she is expertly placed to comment on AI as it applies to writers, which we're talking about today. So welcome to the show, Alicia. Alicia: Thank you so much, Jo. I'm happy to be here. Joanna: Oh, I'm excited to talk to you. So first up— Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing, and also into AI and technology. Alicia: All right. Well, I should say that I got into AI and technology first. I was always one of those science and math people. Math was my favorite subject in school. Not a lot of people say that, but I loved math. I loved the sciences. I always was reading forward in my textbooks. Then my mother didn't want us watching TV, so we read a lot of books. I got into writing poetry, writing song lyrics, writing short stories, and the creative side of me came out. It never occurred to me to write something longer—because I was a math/science person—until I got into law school, and there you have to write all the time. You have to write briefs, you know, these 30 page documents. Then it occurred to me that, hey, I'd like to write a novel. So I would say the technology interest was always there, and the creative interest, the writing, came later. In my work as a patent attorney, I have encountered AI-related applications throughout the years, even generative AI technologies as far as 10 years back. So I had an interest in that even before it became relevant to the writing industry. Joanna: So when did you get into writing fiction? How many years have you been writing fiction, as well as doing your incredible job? Alicia: I have been writing fiction, specifically long form fiction, for as long as I have been a lawyer. The time is almost exact. I know this because I was in my final year of law school and sort of had this crisis. Like, I'm graduating law school, do I want to be a lawyer? I spent time thinking about that. Just sat down for really a day and went through what I would do if it wasn't law. I decided that I did want to do law, but I also wanted to write novels. So as soon as I graduated law school, I enrolled in some local writing courses. So I've been practicing law and writing for the same amount of time. Joanna: Which is approximately? Alicia: 17 years. I got into indie publishing in maybe 2013, but I've been writing for 17 and a half years. Joanna: Brilliant. So you mentioned there that you, as a patent attorney, you look at AI applications. You did mention using a bit of generative technology there. How do you currently use AI tools as part of your creative and business processes? Alicia: In my business work, well, I see a lot of AI technologies in what I'm writing patent applications for, and that's what I was referring to before. In managing a patent portfolio at the cybersecurity firm where I work right now, I definitely use AI technologies to help inventors organize their thoughts when they submit to us to do analyses. Sometimes I'm dealing with a huge patent portfolio, and AI can help organize the analyses and my thoughts on that. In my writing, I use it mostly at the planning stages as a brainstorming partner. I love AI as a brainstorming partner. I always tell it that it's my junior partner because it tends to go off on its own, and I like to reel it in to run the show, if you will. I give it my ideas. Often I'll ask it to, say, “Give me five ideas on how to put these things together,” or, “Give me 10 ideas on how to put these things together.” Even if they're bad ideas, it helps me sort of organize my thoughts. Like, why don't I like these ideas? So, together, we walk through what I want to do. We create a Save the Cat outline. Which I usually start it off once we have all the ideas on the table, I ask it to create the Save the Cat outline. Usually, I have a lot of changes. We make those changes, and then we'll break it down into a scene list that follows the three act structure. I often have it generate character sketches and setting sketches —  because, honestly, I'm no good with thinking about what does this setting look like. What kind of house is this? Bricks? Facade? I don't care. So the AI is really helpful with that. There's a lot of editing, a lot of back and forth. AI is a great partner for brainstorming and plotting. When we get into the writing, my authorial voice is really important to me, in part, probably because I have diagnosed OCD. I have experimented with using AI in pretty much every aspect of my process, but for me, personally, the writing part I have to do. I would spend more time editing AI output than I would have just writing it myself. I tend to use dictation and input the dictation output into ChatGPT to clean it up — — and they'll catch the dictation error, so I have a much cleaner copy going forward. Then when I'm done writing, I'll use a little AI for developmental editing. Joanna: I love that. You sound similar to me in the way you're using it. You're using the word ‘partner', your junior partner, your collaborator. You use the word ‘we', which I really like as well because I feel that too. Like with Claude, I feel this is almost my—not so much co-writer—but like you said, collaborator. It really is a backwards and forwards way of doing it. I can hear the smile in your voice, and I have a smile in my voice as well, because this is fun, right? This makes it more fun for us. Alicia: It's so fun, and I feel like my work is better, that this brings out a better side of me. Connections that I hadn't made, problems that I didn't foresee. It's having a partner, so that it's improved. It's not just me, it's me plus some artificial intelligence. Joanna: Yes. So we could geek out about how amazing it is all day, but I did want to ask you about some of the objections that authors have. You did this great talk at Author Nation, and you were so clear on it. I don't think there are many people in our community who have degrees in computer science and law, and an MFA, and are an active indie author. I think you're the only person, right? Alicia: Maybe. Joanna: Maybe. Let's start with one of the most common objections from authors, which is, “AI companies stole our work.” What are your thoughts on this, and how does it relate to fair use? Alicia: So when I think of the word stolen, I think of an illegal taking. So I think, are we talking about copyright infringement here? I would say, in my opinion, that the work is not stolen. The reason I phrase it that way, in my opinion, is because I'm sure a lot of folks know, there's ongoing litigation about whether the use of copyrighted works in training data is copyright infringement. Until those are actually decided, until those cases are actually decided, I can't say definitively, but I feel pretty confident that the training of AI using copyrighted works is fair use. Fair use is an exception to copyright infringement. Basically it says, yes, we copied copyrighted works, except we did it for a use where this exception is cut out. Fair use exists in order to allow us to grow from existing copyrighted works, to spur creativity so that you can create based on what already exists. There's four factors in the US that courts consider for fair use, and one of the key factors is, is your use transformative? I think that's really important to what fair use is about. Have you created something new? Have you created something that can be used in a different way? I feel strongly that the use of copyrighted works to train AI is so transformative, and is what fair use is about. There's case law that's related to using copyrighted works, even for AI in the past, but not for generative AI in the way we're ta

How can you build a long-term author career with multiple streams of income? How can you use technology for the grunt work and not the fun part of writing? Kevin J Anderson gives his tips. In the intro, has TikTok gone dark? [AP]; BookVault is expanding printing to Australia; GPSR, the EU’s new General Product Safety Regulation [Self-Publishing Advice]; CreatedByHumans.ai launches in partnership with The Authors Guild for AI data licensing [Publishing Perspectives]; Simon & Schuster launches audio-first imprint featuring content from self-published authors [Publishers Weekly]. Plus, 7 Steps for How to Write Non-Fiction [Reedsy Live replay]; Publishing predictions for 2025 [Draft2Digital’s Self-Publishing Insiders]; Creative and life challenges with me and Orna Ross [Self-Publishing with ALLi]; Death Valley – A Thriller, coming in March! Today's show is sponsored by Draft2Digital, self-publishing with support, where you can get free formatting, free distribution to multiple stores, and a host of other benefits. Just go to www.draft2digital.com to get started. This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Kevin J. Anderson is the multi-award-winning and internationally bestselling author of over 190 books across different genres, with over 24 million copies in print across 34 languages. He's also the director of publishing at Western Colorado University, as well as a publisher at WordFire Press, an editor and rock album lyricist, and he's co-written Dune books and worked on the recent Dune movies and TV show. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Adapting throughout a 40-year author career The importance of having a Plan B when the industry changes Incorporating AI into your dictation process — MacWhisper Utilizing AI to do the grunt work, not the fun work Publishing timeline restrictions with traditional publishers Tips for running a Kickstarter in 2025 Finding a market for short stories Meeting reader expectations and delivering on promises You can find Kevin at WordFire.com and buy his books direct at WordFireShop.com. Transcript of Interview with Kevin J. Anderson Joanna: Kevin J. Anderson is the multi-award-winning and internationally bestselling author of over 190 books across different genres, with over 24 million copies in print across 34 languages. He's also the director of publishing at Western Colorado University, as well as a publisher at WordFire Press, an editor and rock album lyricist, and he's co-written Dune books and worked on the recent Dune movies and TV show. So welcome back to the show, Kevin. Kevin: It's been too long, Joanna. We should do this more often. Joanna: Oh, yes. Well, you've got so much going on. So we've gone into your background before, so we're going to jump straight in. This, being in the author business a long time, is incredible. Tell us. You just told me about a big milestone. Kevin: It was the new year, so I was just kind of doing my year round up and everything, and I realized that my very first professional publication was in January 1985, Magazine of Fantasy & Science Fiction. So that means — 40 years I've been a professional author. Joanna: Wow. Kevin: So I look back, and it was 1995 when I quit my day job, and I have been a full-time ‘earning all my living by writing stuff' for 30 years. Which, I don't know if I live frugally. No you've met my wife, I don't live frugally. I've just been at it for a long time. My gosh, it's not like doing the same thing every day, like working on a factory assembly line for 30 years — This has required just keeping a lookout, and being adaptive, and reinventing myself over and over and over again. The publishing world does not stay the same, and if you just keep doing the same thing, you'll be left by the wayside. Joanna: Well, let's just focus on that then. You mentioned being adaptive and reinventing yourself, but I mean, this really takes a different kind of mindset, I think. I haven't been in it as long as you, but I've seen many authors disappear from the industry, perhaps because they couldn't adapt. So how do you keep that sort of ever learning process, even when you're already so successful? Kevin: Well, here's the thing, I am not interested in just one thing or one type of writing. I've always got like five or six completely unrelated things going at a time. What happens is that something will be really hot one year, and then nobody wants it the next year, but I've got five other things going, so then we hope something else gets really hot. If you are only writing steampunk vampire romances, great. They might be super hot this year, but 10 years from now, maybe people don't want to read steampunk vampire romances. I'm just making that up, just as an example. For instance, let me go back. My big claim to fame, I had my first giant career boost was about 1992. So my first novel was published in 1988, and yes, listeners, I know it sounds like I'm really old, but I'm in good shape. So 1988, my first novel was published. I published, I think, six or seven novels. This is trad days, there was no option for indie. Then I got a phone call from Lucasfilm saying, “Kevin, would you write Star Wars books for us?” So, suddenly, instead of just being this author who wrote some books that maybe got some reviews, and you got advances in those days, and I maybe earned $4,000 on a book for working on it for six, eight months. Then suddenly I was writing Star Wars books, and I was a New York Times bestselling author, and I was selling millions of copies. That was huge for me. So I did all these Star Wars books, and through Star Wars, I did Star Wars comics, and then I learned how to write comics. That was a huge comics boom, so I was writing monthly comic books and doing all kinds of successful things like that. And because of Star Wars, they asked me to write X Files. I wrote all these movie tie-in books. I wrote the novels for like these science fiction movies that came out. I was pulling up the drawbridge because people kept throwing books at me as fast as I could write them. Then around maybe 10 or 11 years later, all of that media tie-in work just dried up. People might remember, every time a movie came out, you could walk into the grocery store or the airport and there would be a paperback novel of that movie. I mean, that was steady work. I could pick up the phone saying, “I've got a month free. Give me a movie novelization.” Those things paid like $15,000 or so, and it took three or four weeks’ worth of work, but they just stopped doing that. It wasn't that I gave up on it, or I stopped being good at it or anything, it's just that entire part of the career dried up. Then I'm not sure exactly the years, but like 2005 or 2006, the entire comic book industry imploded. My comic that used to sell maybe 500,000 copies an issue suddenly sold 50,000 copies an issue, just because people stopped buying comics. That's not anything that's in my control. There's a whole lot of reasons why authors screw up their own careers. I mean, we can talk about that for a while, but — There are so many things that are out of your control so you have to have a Plan B and a Plan C, and as many plans as you have. I had all these things going, but I kept spinning other plates up. I would write mysteries and horror because then the science fiction dried up. Or I would write young adults with my wife, and then young adults suddenly became hot. I just kept trying all of the above. You've noticed, in fact, I've given you a cup of my coffee, which is like five times stronger than what you ever would drink. I am fairly energetic, and I like to work all the time, and I keep going. You can't put all your eggs in one basket because this industry is a roller coaster, and it just changes all the time. Now, there's a couple of other things. Well, first we mentioned, I'm the director of the Master's Degree Program in Publishing at Western Colorado University, and I started that about seven years ago. In fact, I had to go back to university myself and get an MFA after I had already published 150 books and had 57 bestsellers. I had to get the degree because you can't teach creative writing unless you have a degree. So I got a master's degree. Now, in fact, we're taking applications for our seventh cohort now. So seven years, I've had this group of students. I teach them grad-level publishing, both traditional and indie. I put them through the paces. They do their own books, they edit an anthology, they read the slush pile. I mean, it's all hands-on stuff. The reason I'm mentioning all that, other than telling everybody to check out the program, but that is a completely different plan. Plan Z. I mean teaching at the university and teaching publishing, actually, it pays a monthly salary, which isn't bad. I get health benefits. You're in the UK, so you don't know how desperate that is over here in the US that you need to have health insurance. So all of that is a completely different track. Like, okay, I'll spend a lot of time teaching graduate students Just try different things. It's all writing adjacent. It's not like I'm working as an automobile mechanic in my day job. Everything is related to writing or publishing, but there's different aspects of it. It's almost like playing Whack-a-Mole. One thing will pop up and be really successful, but then that will go away, and then something else will pop up. You need to make sure you have a lot of moles to pop up in the Whack-a-Mole room. Joanna: That's fantastic. I mean, it is amazing. Also,

How can you balance creativity with business in order to have a profitable, long-term author career? What were the successes and challenges of the Author Nation conference? Joe Solari shares his perspective. In the intro, the money episode [Ink In Your Veins]; WISE for multi-currency banking; creative planning tips for 2025 [Self~Publishing Advice]; Surprising Trends Authors Can’t Ignore in 2025 [Novel Marketing Podcast]. Plus, an update on Death Valley, A Thriller, and reflections on seeing live theatre vs online & stream/subscription models. This podcast is sponsored by Kobo Writing Life, which helps authors self-publish and reach readers in global markets through the Kobo eco-system. You can also subscribe to the Kobo Writing Life podcast for interviews with successful indie authors. This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Joe Solari helps authors build great businesses through books, courses, and podcasting, as well as strategy and operations consulting. He's also the managing director of Author Nation, the biggest conference for indie authors in the world. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Maintaining sustainable balance between writing and marketing Creating an author business that fulfills you Utilizing your time effectively in 2025 Navigating social media and business goals Learning to say no and focusing on what you really want Author Nation 2024 Highlights The logisitics of running an author conference Catering to different experience levels at an author conference You can find Joe at JoeSolari.com and AuthorNation.live. Transcript of Interview with Joe Solari Joanna: Joe Solari helps authors build great businesses through books, courses, and podcasting, as well as strategy and operations consulting. He's also the managing director of Author Nation, the biggest conference for indie authors in the world. So welcome back to the show, Joe. Joe: Thanks for having me on again. I really enjoy the time we get to spend together. It seems like we talk more on the show than we do at events that we meet each other at. Joanna: Absolutely. Well, we're often both very busy. You've been on the show a couple of times before—and I'll link to those in the show notes—so we're just going to jump in today. Now, as we head into 2025, authors are assessing their priorities for the year. Now, in your experience helping authors build profitable businesses— How can we balance writing and marketing so that both are sustainable? Joe: That's such an awesome question. I think a lot of folks that are used to hearing me on your podcast or other podcasts are going to think that I'm going to go right into talking about profitability or budgeting, but I'm going to actually get a little different approach for you on this whole thing. Let me give you some context first, and that is— Where do you have your best ideas? Joanna: Personally, a lot of my ideas come from traveling and places, in particular. So I have to go and visit things and input in order to have ideas. Joe: Yes, and that doesn't surprise me. I've asked the question of a lot of creatives, and what I've discovered in asking that question is there tends to be two different things that come up. Like, it's when I do something like go on walks. Or a lot of times it's things like driving or a shower. Why that is, there's science behind this, and it's you have two distinct networks in your brain that you need to use for creativity. One is the default mode network. That's what your body goes into when you daydream. It's when you were sitting in class and getting bored by your teacher, and it would make you go off and think into your imaginary world. That's a natural place for you to go. The other system is your executive functioning system, which is what helps you focus and get words out and hit deadlines. They're two distinct systems that sometimes will overlap, like in a venn diagram. When that happens, that's your flow state where you feel like the ideas are coming and you're getting them down on paper. The interesting thing about that is that it’s completely counter to what you're told to do as an entrepreneur and hustle culture. You're just supposed to produce. You're supposed to produce words. You're supposed to sit in a chair. You're supposed to produce. So what you do is, when you are only focused on that one side, the executive function side, you detach yourself and you distance yourself from your creative well. So my answer to your question is that — I suggest that authors start to build into their process in 2025 more time to tap into that default mode network and spend time thinking about how they can spend some real quality time and — Protect that creative space, because that's where all your good ideas come from. When you feel like you're being blocked, it's because you're disconnecting yourself from that default mode network. So it's sound business advice, in the sense of there's this process that's core to your business that we need to get more efficient and think about how we can improve its performance. Joanna: I really like that, and I feel like this is something I've always done is that I separate my time into creative time and business and marketing time. I find like I can't do both in the same time period. When I had a day job, first thing in the morning—you know, I'm a morning person—so I'd write before going to work. Then in the evening, I could do business and marketing. This podcast was started after my work, back in the day. So perhaps that fits into what you're saying is that you have to schedule different types of time, some for input and creativity and thinking and not doing much sometimes. Then other time for business and marketing. I feel like maybe authors sometimes try to do everything all at once, and maybe that's why it doesn't work. Joe: Absolutely, you're really getting into the core of this. There are different systems, and they have to be honored in different ways, and you need them both. We're on The Creative Penn show, come on, we have got to talk about creativity. It's like, we forget that's the source of the product. We get very focused on, oh, it's a business. You have this product you have to put out. You have these customers you need to serve. All that stuff, it has to be done, but what you asked was — How do we make this sustainable process between the marketing and the writing? What I'm getting at is there's some things that we can do to make that process easier. What it means is understanding that this isn't up and to the right like a business chart of sales. It's an undulating cycle. Let me give you another context for this. If we look at creativity as a profession, you have this natural talent as a creator. We've identified that you've got this active imagination, and you love to spend time in the story world, and it's fulfilling to you. That's no different than if we noticed some natural athletic talent. So what would we do around that if we saw that you were a really good tennis player? Well, we would work on your endurance and your speed. We would work on racket skills. We would work on all these different things to supplement that natural talent. One of the big things we would also do for an athlete is we would have a recovery cycle. We wouldn't just say after you finished winning Wimbledon to go play the French Open. We'd put you in an ice bath, we'd stretch you out, we'd go into some kind of a process that would get you to be ready for the next time you play. I think that goes, again, back to that first question of yours, what could you do to make 2025 better? It's like, how do you build a recovery process? How do you give yourself that space to let the well refill? There's a lot of things right now in the world that are really, really detrimental to you refilling the well. We're talking about this really powerful default mode network and that time where you just need to be bored to let it kick in. What do we do? Well, we get on social media, and we doom scroll, and we do a bunch of stuff to fill in that time that really deteriorates. It does two things, right. You lose that time that you need, and it deteriorates your capacity because you're doing really horrible things to your neuro-chemical system with these dopamine hits from scrolling. I've been doing this research, and it's kind of scary to see what could potentially happen with this. It's destroying all this creative capacity out there that we need to have new ideas come up, whether it's a new story or the cure for some disease. Joanna: Yes, it is tough. In fact, one of the things I do is try to be active in my open time. So you said there be bored, and being bored is really hard, as you say. So I go for a walk often, and going for a walk means I can't look at my phone while I'm out walking. I'm looking at nature. You mentioned the shower. We cannot stay in the shower for hours at a time, but I can walk for hours at a time. Most people, wherever they are, there should be somewhere you can go and walk. Although, perhaps not at a gym. I don't know, a gym is also very stimulating in terms of the screens. Particularly in your American gyms, there are so many screens everywhere. This is also really hard for people, and I know there will be people saying, “but social media is how I”—not me particularly—”but how I might be selling books.” So this is the hard part, right? This is what it comes down to. I love what you're saying, but then people are like— “But I have to be on social media because how else do I meet m

Are you curious about the hidden structures that turn ordinary manuscripts into irresistible page-turning stories? Wondering how to shape your characters, scenes, and chapters so readers can’t put your book down? Kristen Tate shares her tips. In the intro, key book publishing paths [Jane Friedman]; sub-rights and why it’s important to understand how many ways your book can make money [Renee Fountain]; the innovation of the indie author community and biggest changes in publishing with Michael Tamblyn [KWL Podcast]; Plus, 10 publishing trends for 2025 [Written Word Media]; Unveiling 2025: Indie authors gear up for AI innovations and craft renaissance [Indie Author Magazine]; How to Write Non-Fiction, Second Edition is out now; and join me for a live webinar: 7 steps to write your non-fiction book in 2025, 15 Jan. Today's show is sponsored by ProWritingAid, writing and editing software that goes way beyond just grammar and typo checking. With its detailed reports on how to improve your writing and integration with writing software, ProWritingAid will help you improve your book before you send it to an editor, agent or publisher. Check it out for free or get 15% off the premium edition at www.ProWritingAid.com/joanna This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Kristen Tate is an editor and founder of the Blue Garret, offering editing services and advice for authors. She has a PhD in English from Columbia University, focusing on novels and publishing history. Her latest book is Novel Study: Decoding the Secrets and Structures of Contemporary Fiction. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Most common mistakes authors make with openings The differences between scenes and chapters How to plot a page-turner The continuous development of an author's writing process Balancing reading for pleasure and reading for research Inadvertent plagiarism and the boundaries of fair use Benefits of working with a human editor Utilising AI tools while maintaining your author voice You can find Kristen at TheBlueGarret.com. Transcript of Interview with Kristen Tate Joanna: Kristen Tate is an editor and founder of the Blue Garret, offering editing services and advice for authors. She has a PhD in English from Columbia University, focusing on novels and publishing history. Her latest book is Novel Study: Decoding the Secrets and Structures of Contemporary Fiction. Welcome back to the show, Kristen. Kristen: Oh, thanks. It's great to be back with you. Joanna: Yes, and you are primarily an editor, and you're actually my editor. So we've talked about that before. So it is very interesting having you on the show to talk about this book. Why write a book on the craft of writing fiction when you focus so much on editing? Kristen: So I think for me, and I think this is true to some extent for you and other people who write nonfiction, but I really write to learn. It's just one of the ways I understand the world. So this book was one that when I started editing fiction, I wanted to be able to find this book, and never did find it. We were talking a little bit before the interview started about my first book. It's a collection of book reviews of writing craft books. At the end of writing that book, I realized that all along I had secretly been hoping to find like the one true formula for writing an amazing novel. I did find formulas, they are out there. They can be really useful, especially for beginning writers who are just starting to feel out what it takes to shape a plot or something like that. From an editing standpoint, they don't really fit a lot of books. Each book is kind of its own, you know, it's kind of like children. They're all pretty unique. So I decided that I really wanted to start from the other end, and start from novels that I thought were successful in different ways, and just take them apart and figure out how they worked. So I just kind of did that through writing. It started as a blog, and then it eventually turned into a book so I could formalize it and share it with a wider audience. Joanna: You mentioned there that you focused on books that were successful in different ways. What I actually appreciated is you didn't go to the common classics. I think so many writing books use older books that I feel in many ways aren't so relevant to modern fiction writers. How did you choose the books that you focused on in this book? Kristen: So this is one of the beauties, actually, of being an indie author. So it was partly my taste. I didn't have to do this strategically. I didn't have an editor or a publishing house saying, “We want you to cover these books,” or, “It would be more saleable if you covered X, Y and Z.” I really started from books that I knew I wanted to learn from and thought were doing something interesting. I also really deliberately chose a big range of genres, in part because I wanted mystery writers to find something there for them, and romance writers to find something there for them. Also, I feel really strongly that if you're writing genre fiction, it can be really helpful to learn from other genres. And so I wanted to give readers a way, even if they don't read a lot of mystery novels or fantasy novels or whatever, I wanted them to get a sense of just what the different opportunities are in that genre. Joanna: I actually ended up buying one of the books. Kristen: I keep hearing that. I think that's lovely. Joanna: Yes, and just to be clear, there were no spoilers in the book. You managed to avoid that. So that was quite a feat as well. Kristen: Well, for most of the books, there's a big chapter on like the overall structure, but there's a spoiler alert. So you know that if you want to read the book first before getting the spoilers, you have to hurry up and do that before you read that chapter. Joanna: Yes. So the book is full of common questions that writers ask, or perhaps don't even know how to ask, so we're just going to go through a couple of them. You say, “Having edited hundreds of novels by this point in my career, I can tell you that the opening is the most challenging section for most writers.” What are some of the most common mistakes you see with openings, and how can we improve them? Kristen: So I think there are two big ones that I see over and over, and it's mostly just a misunderstanding of what readers want to know first. So I often see newer writers try to give us all the information, all the kind of surface information about their protagonist. Things like their full name, like their last name, their hair color, their eye color, and all of this detail about physical appearance. While we want to know about that eventually, the thing that readers really want to know is what is this character thinking and feeling. What's their story? What are they up against? What do they want? What do they need? What's standing in the way of them getting that? All of this other stuff that I think writers are very anxious about, like, how do I get my character in front of a mirror so I can have them looking at themselves and describing themselves? You know, that's not a problem you have to solve. Just wait for a moment where it's going to come up organically. Maybe it doesn't even ever come up, and it's just less important. Then the other common problem I see is that, especially for a character-driven work, I'll see writers try to front load the character's backstory. So they want us to know all of this really important information about how this character came to have the problems or the weaknesses that they have and that they're going to have to get over. Like that's the really important part of the character arc. We need to know what's holding them back and how all of that happened, but rather than starting with it, you really want it to come more in the first third of the novel, or maybe in the halfway point. We just don't need it up front. Again, what we need up front is what's happening right now because that's the thing that's going to pull us into the novel and give us a reason to keep reading. Everything else is kind of old news, right? The character still needs to wrestle with it, but it's already happened. So it's just not as interesting to us as a reader. Joanna: On that, I remember taking ages to understand what a scene was. I think it was Larry Brooks' Story Engineering book that I finally learned what it was, like about four or five years into writing fiction. I confused it with a chapter. Of course, there are writers like James Patterson who has one scene per chapter, and that might work with a lot of thrillers. What is a scene and what is a chapter? Why are these things so important? Kristen: Yes, that's a great question. I like to think of scenes and chapters as being just different size containers. It's really important to remember that readers experience your book across time. I think when we are deep inside a book, like we've been in it so long and we know the whole story. This happens to me as an editor too. We forget that the readers are understanding the story sequentially. So part of what's important about scenes and chapters are the white space breaks, like getting to the end of that container. The size of the container conveys different messages, so a scene break is a smaller break and signals to the reader that there's some kind of shift happening. We might be doing a time jump, maybe we're switching to a different point of view, any of those kinds of things. Whereas a chapter break is much more emphatic and gives you a chance, as a writer, to use that extra white space

Happy New Year 2025! I love January and the opportunity to start afresh. I know it’s arbitrary in some ways, but I measure my life by what I create, and I also measure it in years. At the beginning of each year, I publish an article (and podcast episode) here, which helps keep me accountable. If you’d like to share your goals, please add them in the comments below.  2024 was a year of consolidation as I got my creative house in order and began to shift my creative and business processes. 2025 is going to be a year of personal and business changes as I turn 50 and focus on expanding the J.F. Penn side of things using Leverage as an over-arching theme. More details below. Joanna Penn writes non-fiction for authors and is an award-winning, New York Times and USA Today bestselling author of memoir, thrillers, dark fantasy, and horror as J.F. Penn. She’s also an award-winning podcaster, creative entrepreneur, and international professional speaker. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Leverage: Make more of what I have Launch of How to Write Non-Fiction, Second Edition My 50th year J.F. Penn bucket list and books: Blood Vintage, the ‘desert book,' ‘ the tallship book,' ‘the gothic cathedral book.' J.F. Penn short story collection — Kickstarter Joanna Penn — The Creative Penn Podcast and Patreon Community Leverage: Make more of what I have My over-arching theme for 2025 is Leverage, which can be defined as utilising available resources, assets, tools, and relationships to achieve more. The famous quote by Greek mathematician Archimedes goes: “Give me a place to stand and a lever long enough and I will move the world.” The idea is that you can achieve a lot as an individual — if you use leverage. Here's an overview of some aspects and I go into more detail in the following sections. (a) Leverage the books I've written but not made the most of yet. Launch How to Write Non-Fiction Second Edition everywhere by end of January 2025 Work with my US agent, Renee Fountain, to get a book deal for Blood Vintage — or self-publish by the end of 2025 Get my existing short stories into print. Write an extra two exclusive stories and launch as a Kickstarter Collection and then publish wide. Get Catacomb in audiobook format (b) Leverage my existing available assets to bring in more income Do a monthly book marketing plan and organise paid ad campaigns per month for revolving first books in series and my main earners. I have been pretty scatter-gun at this recently, so I just need to get organised, and AI tools are good at helping with this! Organise my Shopify stores, CreativePennBooks.com and JFPennBooks.com into more collections to make it easier for readers to find things they might want to buy. Reinvigorate my content marketing for JFPenn — make more of BooksAndTravel.page with links back to my stores, and do fiction specific content marketing with the aim of surfacing more in the LLMs as generative search expands. (c) Leverage AI tools to achieve more as a one-person business I already use a lot of AI tools as part of my creative and business processes, but everything is quite disjointed as I create in different places and bring it all together myself. 2025 brings the promise of AI agents — where you give the AI agent a goal and it will plan a multi-step process and then execute that plan on your behalf after your approval, with as much interaction as you like along the way. AI tools helping author achieve leverage. image by joanna penn on midjourney I've glimpsed this step by step planning process as part of Google Gemini Deep Research, which I've started using as part of my book research and marketing processes. The potential launch of OpenAI's Operator in early 2025 is also interesting. I'm primarily interested in using these tools for book marketing, which let's face it, is the part we all want to outsource! There are tools which already have AI embedded within them, which will hopefully become easier to use in 2025. I would love Meta Ads and Amazon Ads to have specialised agents we can use for book marketing. Fingers crossed on that! I'm also researching how SEO works for ‘advertising' to the LLMs, as generative search continues to disrupt ‘old' ways of getting traffic to websites. I still think content marketing is relevant, and I am far more interested in doing more of that rather than social media, so I'm going to look into it. I'll do more visual media — using Midjourney for images since that's still my favourite, but also RunwayML or Sora for video. I loved making my Blood Vintage book trailer, and intend to make similar trailers this year for my first in series books, and also the ones I am pitching for film/TV. While I still intend to self-narrate my non-fiction and my short stories, I'm interested in using ElevenLabs for Catacomb, which has a male main character. In order to maximise potential distribution and sales, I'm waiting for FindawayVoices by Spotify to allow ElevenLabs files, which I think will happen in 2025. OK, let's get into some more specific details. How to Write Non-Fiction, Second Edition January is all about the launch of this completely rewritten new edition. I'll be on lots of different podcasts talking about the book, and also doing lots more social media as well as paid ads to get the book moving. How to Write Non-Fiction, the Second Edition is available now on CreativePennBooks.com in ebook, audio, paperback, large print, and hardback editions, and as part of bundle deals. It's on pre-order at all the other stores, available 31 Jan 2025. You can find it here on Goodreads. My 50th year In March 2025, I'll be 50, and as we all know, it's a big birthday! I've had a goal on my wall for many years — “Create a body of work I'm proud of. 50 books by 50!” I'll let you know in March whether or not I have achieved that goal, but regardless, I am still in the middle of creating a body of work I'm proud of! I'm not intending to stop any time soon. I will be doing some trips and celebrating, and as ever, I'll share on Instagram @jfpennauthor (also Facebook @jfpennauthor). J.F. Penn bucket list and books: Blood Vintage, the ‘desert book,' ‘the tallship book,' ‘the gothic cathedral book.' I have three main bucket list things that I'd like to achieve (at some point) but are essentially out of my control. These are not 2025 ‘goals,' but I'm sharing them as context as they shape some of my business decisions. Get a traditional book deal (in English). I have had deals in foreign languages before. See one of my books/stories as a film or on TV. Win an award for my fiction as J.F. Penn (I'm an award-winning author as J.F. Penn for my memoir, Pilgrimage, and I've been a finalist for the ITW awards for best ebook original for Destroyer of Worlds). I can't guarantee that any of these things will ever happen. The only thing I can do is create the conditions by which they are most likely to occur and keep putting myself and my books in the path of possible success. Since 2009, while I have written some stand-alones, I've been primarily writing fiction in series — my ARKANE action adventure thrillers (13 books), Brooke & Daniel crime thrillers (3 books), and Mapwalker dark fantasy thrillers (3 books). the first books in my 3 main series as J.F. Penn Writing in series is a key pillar of the indie author business model. Essentially, write books in a series and promote the first in series with free or cheap ebooks and price promotions, plus bundle deals and upsells. But series books are not so well positioned for my three bucket list items above. Stand-alones are easier to pitch for all three of those goals, which is why I'm changing my strategy in terms of what I'm writing and how I publish. I'll certainly be writing more books in series as well, but for now I am focusing on the following: Blood Vintage will either get a deal in which case it will likely come out in 2026, or I will self-publish it myself sometime in 2025. If I self-publish it, I will also narrate the audiobook, since the main character is a woman from my area of England. I will write ‘the desert book' and give it to my agent, Renee, to submit to publishers for a potential deal. Again, depending on timing, if everyone passes, I will self-publish that, too. I've already started the draft so it is underway. I have another stand-alone idea which I might get to — working title, the tallship book. It's based on a trip I did back in 1999 when I sailed on the tallship Soren Larsen from Fiji to Vanuatu in the South Pacific. I still have all the research for the gothic cathedral book and a stonemason character who needs a story so that may turn into a crime series, or a fantasy book, or something else. I'm still noodling on what to do with it all … I'll be pitching at London Screenwriters Festival again, and also continuing to network in the film/TV world. In many cases, it's about connections and serendipity so it's about being out there. As an over-arching practice, I will keep reading different kinds of fiction, and keep working with my editor, Kristen Tate, on improving my craft, and keep experimenting with short stories as well as longer works. I'll also keep filling my creative well in order to keep creating sustainably for the long term. J.F. Penn short story collection — Kickstarter I'm super excited about this, and it will probably be my next Kickstarter campaign. My fifth campaign in a fifth genre — why the hell not?! some of my short stories as J.F. Penn I currently have 8 short stories that are not in print

Another year ends, and once more, it's time to reflect on our creative goals. I hope you can take the time to review your goals and you're welcome to leave a comment below about how the year went. Did you achieve everything you wanted to? Let me know in the comments. It's always interesting looking back at my goals from a year ago, because I don't even look at them in the months between, so sometimes it's a real surprise how much they've changed! You can read my 2024 goals here, and I go through how things went below. Joanna Penn writes non-fiction for authors and is an award-winning, New York Times and USA Today bestselling thriller author as J.F. Penn. She’s also an award-winning podcaster, creative entrepreneur, and international professional speaker. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Spear of Destiny, the Gothic cathedral project, and short stories Award-winning memoir, Pilgrimage Blood Vintage, and working with a US agent The Creative Penn Podcast and Patreon Community Streamline TheCreativePenn website and redo Author Blueprint How to Write Non-Fiction, Second Edition Travel, speaking, and in-person events Financials, health and fitness, and happy cats! J.F. Penn — Spear of Destiny, the Gothic Cathedral project, and short stories I researched, wrote and then did a Kickstarter for Spear of Destiny, ARKANE Thriller #13, before publishing it wide a few months later. I went to Vienna, Nuremberg, and Cologne in January, which was a chilly trip but inspired much of the story. The Kickstarter ran in June 2024 and raised £12,536 from 313 Backers. I made a limited edition hardback with silver foil and a ribbon, and a specific cover for the campaign, which I love! You can buy Spear of Destiny here in all formats on my store, or here everywhere else. The hardback was available in bundle deals with the rest of the series, and I also bit the bullet over audio and had the first three books in the series re-narrated by Veronica Giguere (they had been withdrawn since my rewrites in 2022), as well as Spear of Destiny. These kinds of bundles and Add-Ons really help a Kickstarter fund at a higher level, and they are also only possible if you sell direct as you can still make a profit, even with discounts. I also had a goal in 2024 to produce a non-fiction photo book with essays about English Gothic Cathedrals. I did lots of research trips and read books on stone masonry, which was great fun. But then I discovered the pain of photography permissions, even for your own photos. Essentially, if you take photos on private property, you cannot just use those photos in commercial projects. You need photography permissions, which can take time and energy, as well as potential payment for every single one, plus the text that goes with it, and potentially even the layout. I hate the idea of asking permission in general. It goes against my independent spirit, and when I researched it in more detail, I hated even more how long it would take, and how much to-ing and fro-ing there would probably be. I am the kind of creative who enjoys wrangling chaos and I can be a whirlwind of creative energy. It doesn't fit well with the structured permissions process. When I interviewed Leon Mcanally about his Dark Tourism book which was heavy on photos and permissions, I realised I just can't do this kind of book right now. Perhaps sometime in the future I might hire someone to work with, but it doesn't fit me at the moment, so that photo/essay book is not happening. I still have a lot of research around gothic cathedrals and ideas for what else that could turn into. More to come on that in 2025. I had a goal to write “at least one or two” short stories, and I managed two, De-Extinction of the Nephilim, and Seahenge, both of which I narrated in audio, and are available on my store, and in all the usual places. I did the art for all my fiction covers this year, primarily with Midjourney, but also DALLE through ChatGPT. My cover designer, Jane at JD Smith Design, used the images to put the finished covers together. I also used RunwayML to turn Midjourney images into a book trailer for Blood Vintage. I also had a goal to get everything in audio, but I am still deciding what to do with Catacomb, so that is outstanding. I did change the cover on it and make a gorgeous sprayed edge hardback. J.F. Penn — Award-winning memoir author, London Book Fair, 2024 Back in March 2024, I was thrilled to win the Best Non-Fiction at the Selfies Awards for my memoir, Pilgrimage: Lessons Learned from Solo Walking Three Ancient Ways. That was definitely a highlight! J.F. Penn — Blood Vintage, a folk horror novel Once I dropped the gothic cathedral project, I had space for ‘the vineyard book,' an idea that's been noodling around for a while. I visited Limeburn Hill near me, one of the few biodynamic vineyards in the UK in the summer and really loved the foray into folk horror, a genre I enjoy reading. I also loved designing the special edition cover with Midjourney. The process also led to a connection with a US agent, who suggested we take it out for submission, so I went ahead with the Kickstarter for the Limited Edition hardback only, and retained the other editions for licensing. The Kickstarter for Blood Vintage back in October 2024 was fantastic and I love having the gorgeous limited edition hardback out in the world. But it was a truly limited edition. There were only 200 hardback copies printed and I didn't sell it in any other formats. It's not for sale at all right now. My US agent took it out on submission in September and we are still waiting for the final batch of responses. Apparently Frankfurt Book Fair, the US Election, and then Thanksgiving, Christmas, New Year etc all tend to get in the way of business. I am finally experiencing what I've heard about for many years in terms of the slow pace of traditional publishing, but I'm committed to the process now. We will see what 2025 brings for that book … The Creative Penn Podcast and Patreon Community Another year of podcasting completed — and we hit 10 million downloads, which is kind of incredible! I changed the podcast logo and the theme tune, and thanks to corporate sponsors, Kobo Writing Life, Draft2Digital, ProWritingAid, FindawayVoices by Spotify, Publisher Rocket and Atticus, Ingram Spark, and Written Word Media — all companies I continue to use and recommend. One big change was how much more I am doing inside of my community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn. I've done tutorials on using aspects of AI tools and general topics around author business, as well as the monthly solo Q&A audio, and occasional live office hours. Thanks to all the Patrons who support the show! We now have over 1200 in the Community. Joanna Penn — Streamline The Creative Penn website, redo my Author Blueprint I needed to do a bit of clean up in order to move forward. I started out the year by entirely rewriting my Author Blueprint, which is a free ebook if you sign up for my email list, and you can also get the paperback on my store. I archived a lot of posts and pages on TheCreativePenn.com and did a bulk cleanup of categories and tags. When you have a site as old as mine (started 2008), there's always backlist content to update or archive. Not a fun job, but necessary! How to Write Non-Fiction, Second Edition I also had a goal to update my backlist books for Joanna Penn, and How to Write Non-Fiction was the one that needed doing the most. The first edition was from 2018, and since then my writing craft has improved a great deal, and I wanted to include aspects of memoir, as well as updating the business side of things, affiliate links, plus I wanted to narrate the audiobook. It's all finished and on pre-order as I write this. You can get it on my store, CreativePennBooks.com on 1 Jan 2025 in the usual ebook, audio, and paperback editions, and also in gorgeous foiled hardback (I'm still waiting for the proof as this goes out but it will be up soon). There are also bundle deals. It will be out on all the usual stores on 31 Jan, 2025. Travel, speaking, and in-person events One of my goals when I became an author entrepreneur was to travel more, and while it's not been a bumper year (since my husband Jonathan has been busy with his MBA), I've still managed some trips for speaking and book research. the nuremberg art bunker, corfu, ely cathedral, and death valley california, 2024 Vienna, Austria plus Nuremberg and Cologne in Germany. Book research trip for Spear of Destiny Speaking in Seville for 20Books, Spain (the last 20Books conference) London Book Fair panels Corfu, Greek Islands, for beach holiday English gothic cathedrals trips — Salisbury, Winchester, Wells, Ely, Stone carving weekend, Somerset Death Valley, California, USA. I did a day trip for book research just before Author Nation, which was excellent. Author Nation, Las Vegas, USA. Fantastic conference and a great way for an inspiring (almost) end to the year. Other goals “Learn how to make beautiful books.” I'm taking this goal as a win because I love both the special editions of Spear of Destiny and Blood Vintage, and now we can do sprayed edges with BookVault, we can do premium products more easily. Some indies are doing print runs with all kinds of special add-ons, so it really is possible to do anything now — if you have the time and the budget. “Optimise my Shopify stores and Meta ads.” I didn't do this, so it's a fail on this goal. My Shopify stores — Cr

How can you create when there's an overwhelming list of things to do and too many competing priorities? How can you balance self-care with achieving your creative goals. In this episode, I’ll share some tips from previous podcast guests to help you step back, reassess your priorities, and hopefully help you let go of at least some of the things on your list. In the intro, Author branding [Self-Publishing Advice Podcast]; Example prompts if you want to explore your author brand; Google Gemini Advanced with Deep Research; How to Write Non-Fiction Second Edition; Tips for writing non-fiction, I'm on The Biz Book Broadcast with Liz Scully; Q&A on how to write non-fiction [Apex Author]; 7 Steps to Write Your Non-Fiction Book in 2025 — me on Reedsy Live, 15 Jan. This episode is sponsored by Publisher Rocket, which will help you get your book in front of more Amazon readers so you can spend less time marketing and more time writing. I use Publisher Rocket for researching book titles, categories, and keywords — for new books and for updating my backlist. Check it out at www.PublisherRocket.com This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Show Notes (1) Tackle overwhelm by focusing on your ‘circle of influence' — with Mark McGuinness (2) Be kinder to yourself — with Ellen Bard (3) Sort out your sleep — with Dr Anne D. Bartolucci (4) Protect your private creative practice — with Austin Kleon (5) Overcome Resistance and adopt the attitude of a professional — with Steve Pressfield (6) Make the most of the limited time you have — with Todd Henry Creative Clarity: Focus, Self-Care, and Letting Go (1) If you’re struggling, focus on your circle of influence Life can be overwhelming with work and family commitments and health concerns, even as the waves of change grow ever higher — with political shifts, technological change with generative AI, financial changes and of course, all the things we have to do as authors, if we want to get our books finished and out into the world, and reaching readers.  It’s easy to feel overwhelmed with everything, especially in difficult times.  In April 2020, back in pandemic times, I talked to poet and creative coach Mark McGuinness about how to stay creative in difficult times. He reminded us of how to keep things in perspective, and why focusing on your circle of influence is the way forward. “Here's another thing that I'm using a lot with clients and remembering to use myself is Stephen Covey's circles of influence and concern. Imagine a big circle, right? And in this circle is everything that affects you and the people that you care about in your life. It includes the economy, the weather, the environment, it includes what other people are up to. It includes, I dunno, your sports team. And of course it includes all the stream of news and information that's coming at us. Now we need to be aware of this because by definition, it's a circle of concern. It affects us. But now I want you to imagine inside of that, there's a smaller circle. It looks like a fried egg. And Covey points out, this is in his book, Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. He says, the circle of influence will always be the smaller circle. In other words, there's always more stuff happening in your life that affects you than vice versa. But here's how we use it. The more time and attention you give to that big circle, the more anxious and disempowered and frustrated and overwhelmed you will feel. And also the smaller the inner circle gets, 'cause you're not taking action on it. Now we need to be aware of it. But. I would say definitely ration that and ration social media because there, there's so much anxiety coming at you from that and beyond a certain point, you've got the information and you're just mainlining anxiety. Covey encourages us to focus on the small circle, the circle of influence, and ask, okay, what is in my small circle right now? What can I actually do that's going to make a positive difference? So stuff to take care of yourself. The restorative practice stuff to take care of your family, , people you care about, , stuff that will take care of your work and your business. And the idea is that the more time you spend in this circle of influence, the more empowered you feel. And in fact, the more empowered you are because you're doing stuff that makes a difference. So that small circle can get quite a bit bigger. You can have a fried egg with a really big yoke in it, relative to the other one. Definitely keep that image in mind, sketch it on a post-it, and stick it up above your desk. And keep asking yourself when, particularly when you feel overwhelmed, say, well, what is in my small circle here? If there's nothing, it's just a news item you're worrying about, then distract yourself from it. Go and do something else. But ideally you want to find something, ‘Okay, I can go and do that right now, and then I will feel that I'm making the difference that I can.” The question for you here is — How are you getting derailed by things that are out of your control? What is in your circle of influence and how can you focus on that instead? You can find Mark on his podcasts, The 21st Century Creative,  and poetry show, A Mouthful of Air.  (2) Be kinder to yourself  Back in 2016, I talked to author and consultant Ellen Bard about balancing self-care and productivity, something I struggle with and I know many of you do, too.Too much self care feels lazy and too much productivity can burn you out. How do we balance it all?  “I think that we can be very tough on ourselves as indies and, you don't have to look at the kind of popular books around, , write 5,000 words and which, you know, I own all those books and I love them because I love productivity stuff. , but sometimes I do step back and think, whoa, just, relax. It's all good. For writers in particular, I think there's a few different aspects where we can definitely be kinder to ourselves. The first one and the most obvious one in many ways is the physical. So often as writers, we see ourselves as a brain. Maybe a brain with a pair of hands. If we're on a good day, but do we remember that actually that brain comes in a body and there's a whole load of other stuff around the brain that needs looking after? And so the basic stuff around getting enough sleep, eating the right foods, not over caffeinating or over sugaring, in your day when you are got the cookies or the biscuits down in the kitchen. Keeping an eye on them , and balancing them out, so caffeine alone isn't gonna get any of us to write more words. It should be an enjoyable thing that we enjoy and we love drinking rather than something that is a crutch to make sure we hit that word count. So the physical is the first thing, but for me it's the emotional piece for writers that is more pervasive and probably more of an issue that we don't even see. For example, this idea of the self critic. All of us have in our head a kind of constant in the background narrative that goes on. And for indies it might say ‘You don't do enough. You haven't done enough words. Your work is rubbish. You need to do more. Why didn't you do your marketing today?' You should have been doing your Twitter and doing your words and doing this and doing that, et cetera, et cetera. Your plot is terrible. No one's gonna read this rubbish. I imagine some of us can resonate with that, but recognizing that that self critic is not the reality, that's just a voice in your head. It doesn't mean anything. It comes from your environment. All the influences around you. There's no tick or tip, that I can give to people. It's to try and reframe that voice. First of all, notice the voice and whether that means jotting again, when you hear something that that voice says, or just kind of keeping an eye on it and seeing what the themes are, just recognize that that voice exists, then try and reframe that voice. And the best way for most of us to do it is to imagine that instead of a critic, it's our best friend because all of us. Talk to our best friend in a much nicer way than we talk to ourselves. Without question. So trying to reframe that voice to say, okay, wait a minute. I've written two and a half thousand words. I'm tired. I need a break. What would my best friend say to me right now? Would she say, well, those 2000 words were rubbish. You need to do them again and do some extra. Probably she wouldn't say that. So just trying to reframe that critic as a best friend is a really great tip. Taking breaks is also really important. So one of the things that The Artist's Way talks about, I think is very beautiful is this idea of filling the creative well. She uses Artist Dates. You can do that in any way. Whether that's reading a book, whether that's, going on a walk, whether that's taking photos. We all have different ways of filling the creative well, but I think it's critical for Indies. If we don't have something inside us to draw upon, then our writing becomes much, much harder because the well's dry.”  You can find Ellen at EllenBard.com and she has books on self-care.  Going on Artist’s Dates is a critical part of my own creative self care. In fact, just last week, I went to London, to the British Museum to the Silk Roads exhibition and then to Foyles bookshop, both of which made me think differently as I opened my mind to different perspectives.  There were ancient manuscripts and books in Arabic in the exhibition, and I love arabic calligraphy, it looks so much like spells because I can’t read it at all. And there were maps of the ancient silk roads and how ideas moved along them,

How can you write a book proposal that will make a publisher want to buy your book? How can you write a successful non-fiction book that both interests you and attracts a lot of readers? How can you improve your communication in person and online? Charles Duhigg gives his thoughts. In the intro, HarperCollins CEO Brian Murray on audiobooks and AI [TechCrunch]; OpenAI's 12 days including Sora and o1; Google Notebook LM expansion; How Creatives Might Survive and Thrive in a Post-Productivity World [Monica Leonelle]. Plus, How to Write Non-Fiction, Second Edition. Today's show is sponsored by Draft2Digital, self-publishing with support, where you can get free formatting, free distribution to multiple stores, and a host of other benefits. Just go to www.draft2digital.com to get started. This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Charles Duhigg is a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist, a reporter at The New Yorker Magazine, and a multi-award-winning author whose book, The Power of Habit, spent three years on the New York Times list. His latest New York Times bestselling book is Supercommunicators: How to Unlock the Secret Language of Connection. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes How the writing process differs between books and magazines Balancing what readers want to read and what you want to write Research that comes before and after a book proposal Tips for conducting successful research interviews The process of organizing research for a nonfiction book Improving the art of written communication Dealing with the fear of miscommunication and judgement The importance of connection in communication You can find Charles at CharlesDuhigg.com. Transcript of Interview with Charles Duhigg Joanna: Charles Duhigg is a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist, a reporter at The New Yorker Magazine, and a multi-award-winning author whose book, The Power of Habit, spent three years on the New York Times list. His latest New York Times bestselling book is Supercommunicators: How to Unlock the Secret Language of Connection. Welcome to the show, Charles. Charles: Thank you for having me. This is such a treat. Joanna: I'm excited to talk to you. So first up— Why did you get into writing books when journalism has clearly been such a success for you? Charles: Well, it actually started when my wife was pregnant with our first child, and we didn't have any money, and so I thought, okay, I'll go write a book. Maybe that'll give me enough money so that maybe we can find a decent place to live. My first book was The Power of Habit, about the science of habit formation, and it really came out of my own problems and questions. I wanted to figure out how to improve my habits, how to be able to lose weight and exercise more easily. The process of writing a book, I found, is such a total joy and also overwhelmingly hard. You get to get so deep into the material, you get to understand what's going on. Not only what experts are telling you and what stories you ought to tell, but also you get to think about the ideas in really profound ways. So that just kind of became an addiction for me. I've really enjoyed writing books. Even though if you asked me in the middle of them, I would tell you it's the worst thing I've ever done in my entire life. Joanna: Well, yes, all of us listening understand that. It is interesting because, I mean, there's a lot of comparisons to your journalism. You interview a lot of people, and you include a lot of that. How is the process of these longer form books different to your journalism pieces? Charles: So it's a little akin to writing magazine pieces, because oftentimes for the magazine piece, I'll write 8,000 to 12,000 words, and each chapter of a book is about 7,500 to 9,500 words. So it's not that far off. The difference is that when I'm writing a magazine piece, I can just write a magazine piece about whatever the topic is. I can write about AI, or I can write about politics. With a book, you're writing the equivalent of, let's say, eight to ten magazine pieces, but there has to be something that ties them together. There has to be an overarching argument or an overarching idea that every chapter reflects in a different way, and finding that idea can take a long time. The two hardest parts, I think, of writing a book are, first of all, deciding what topic to write on. Oftentimes, it takes me a year or two to really figure out a topic that I think is going to be interesting and that I think readers are going to think of as interesting. Then it oftentimes takes another year or six months to figure out what the overarching argument is. Oftentimes it's not obvious from the reporting what that connective tissue is, but it's my job to find it. Joanna: That's really interesting that it takes you a year or two to figure out what you want to write. You mentioned there what you're interested in, but also want the what the readers want. So what is that process? Because this is something we all struggle with. I write fiction as well, and much of my audience do. How do you find where those two things — what you want, and what the readers want — interconnect? Charles: I think a big part of it is you just have to indulge things and then be prepared for them not to be successes. So take Supercommunicators, my most recent book, which is about the science of communication. It originally started with me trying to figure out why some people were better listeners than others. I thought it was a book about listening, but the thing is, that as I talked about it with my editor and as I did research, I realized listening is a little boring on its own. Most people don't wake up saying, “I really want to be a great listener.” They say, “I want to be a great listener and I want other people to listen to me.” So it took a little while to figure out, okay, this is actually about communication. Then once we started figuring out it was about communication, it also got a little bit boring to me. It just seemed like there was so much research and so much advice out there on, “This is how you should hold your arms,” or, “This is how you should repeat back what the person said.” After a little while, and particularly after talking to neuroscientists about why communication works within our brains, what I realized is it's actually not a book about communication, it's a book about connection. How do we connect with other people? The methodology for connection is often conversation. Communication and conversation is how we connect, but the thing that is under that is how to connect with other people. Now that question, how do I connect with anyone? That seems like a question that a lot of people would be interested in. I can see myself caring about that when it comes to parenting. I can see myself caring about that when it comes to managing people at work. I can see me caring about that when it comes to sales or being in government or trying to evaluate political leaders. So the process of figuring out what is both interesting to me and interesting to a broad audience is a matter of listening to my own curiosity — Following my own curiosity, but also being challenging and skeptical. Just because I think it's interesting, I need to prove to myself and my editor that many, many other people will think it's interesting as well. Joanna: So you mentioned there about proving to your editor and also finding a connection with the market that might buy the book. I'm interested because, obviously, you're several books in, you're very successful, do you still do a book proposal when you have an idea? Charles: Absolutely. Joanna: Tell us about that because it feels like that's something we need to know about. Charles: For nonfiction is a little bit different than for fiction. In nonfiction, you put together a book proposal, you sell the book proposal, and they give you an advance based on the book proposal. Then you use that advance to essentially go write the book. I mean, in theory, I could hand my editor a two or three page book proposal and say, “Let's sell this,” but the thing is, I have to do the work at some point. You have to come up with a grand outline at some point and know a map for the directions you want to move in. So what I do is I put together a 50- to 70-page proposal. I started this with The Power of Habit before I was a known writer, but I've used it ever since. That proposal is, first of all, written in the voice of the book. So it's actually as if you're reading little samples of chapters from the book. So there's little anecdotes in there, there's interviews. What I'm trying to do is I'm trying to prove to myself, as much as my editor, there's enough here for a book. Like if I spend another two or three years reporting on this, I'm going to come back with something amazing. So writing that proposal and polishing that proposal, again, 50 to 70 pages is pretty long, making that into something that is really compelling. That allows me to kind of stress test whether there is a book there. If I can't write a great proposal, I'm not going to be able to write a great book. The other thing is that for the publisher, it gives them a lot of confidence. So when writers come to me in nonfiction and they say, “How much time should I spend on my proposal?” I always say, well, look, for your own sake, you should spend a lot of time on it, but equally for the publisher's sake. They are going to be comfortable paying you a larger advance if they have a fully fleshed out proposal. Since you have to

How can you build a scalable business around non-fiction books? How can you turn a book into multiple streams of income? How can you delegate in order to scale? Michael Bungay Stanier shares his thoughts. In the intro, Bookfunnel's Universal Book Links, and How to Write Non-Fiction Second Edition; ALCS survey results of writers on AI, remuneration, transparency and choice; AI Translation is the Game-Changer’s Game-Changer [The New Publishing Standard] This podcast is sponsored by Kobo Writing Life, which helps authors self-publish and reach readers in global markets through the Kobo eco-system. You can also subscribe to the Kobo Writing Life podcast for interviews with successful indie authors. This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Michael Bungay Stanier is the bestselling author of five books, with a million copies sold, including The Coaching Habit, How to Begin, and How to Work with (Almost) Anyone. He's also the founder of training and development company Box of Crayons, a podcaster, speaker, and coach. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Michael's publishing journey and why he likes the control of hybrid publishing Creating a business ecosystem beyond the book — multiple streams of income Tips for successfully delegating in your author business and improving professional relationships The challenges of creating a premium print journal How journaling can help you figure out what you really want You can find Michael at MBS.works or BoxofCrayons.com. You can get the journal at DoSomethingJournal.com. Transript of Interview with Michael Bungay Stanier Joanna: Michael Bungay Stanier is the bestselling author of five books, with a million copies sold, including The Coaching Habit, How to Begin, and How to Work with (Almost) Anyone. He's also the founder of training and development company Box of Crayons, a podcaster, speaker, and coach. Welcome to the show, Michael. Michael: Jo, I'm so happy to be here. It was earlier this year that you and I were hanging out in a field together, and this is warmer and less damp, amongst other things. Joanna: Yes, indeed. We were at The DO Lectures in Wales, which we're going to come back to. First up— Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and publishing. Michael: Well, the seed was planted by having a grandmother who was a writer. So my dad's mum lived in Oxford, England, and she wrote columns for the local newspaper, kind of gossip columns. Her pen name was Culex, which is Latin for mosquito, which I love. She also wrote kids’ books, and memoirs, and plays, and radio scripts. She was a really prolific writer. So I think that was probably the early seed, along with my dad being a great storyteller. He would tell stories at night of Sir Michael. I was meeting Sir Nigel, Sir Angus, my two brothers, and we'd head off and have adventures. So this idea of loving stories and loving writing, I think was planted pretty early on. I found in university and in my first careers after university, I would inevitably end up writing the newsletter. In university, I was part of the law newspaper and the English department newspaper. Writing and writing and writing has just been part of the practice for a long time. Which, as you know, is all part of putting in your 10,000 hours, finding your voice, learning how to write a sentence. Starting off copying other people's styles and then trying to find your own style emerging from that. The first time an actual book idea showed up in my head, and this turned into an actual book that I published called Get Unstuck & Get Going. I had this idea that I thought about coaching, which was a profession I just started in. I was like, you know, there's a way of doing this that can be more efficient than actually having a coach. I had this idea of like the kids’ flip books, where you have like a ballerina's head and a scuba diver's body and a soccer player's legs, and you kind of combine them into these kind of different combinations. I had this idea that you could create a book with different questions. So you'd bring a problem to the book, and you'd open it and randomly generate some questions, and voila, you'd have a self-directed coaching practice. So I had this idea, and wrote some stuff up, and went and made some prototypes. Then I honestly just couldn't figure out how to publish it because no publisher wanted this, and self-publishing felt impossible. So I kind of put it in a drawer, until my cousin Robert went, “You know that book you were telling me about, this kind of self-coaching book? I noticed you're not doing it, and I was telling my boss about it, and he thought he his company could do it.” I was like, “Wait, no, what? Ah!” So that was kind of the catalyst to me getting a first book published. After that —  I just realized that writing books and producing books and getting them out in the world is one of the best expressions of the way I try and serve the world. Joanna: I love that, and it's a really interesting story. Just give us a sense of the timeline because you said there that self-publishing would be difficult. I mean, self-publishing that kind of book would be difficult. You've got five books now with, I presume, different publishers or self-publishing. Tell us a bit about that publishing journey and the timeline. Michael: So, let's see. Get Unstuck & Get Going would have been around about 2006, so before Amazon and others kind of made self-publishing a regular book normal. Then I self-published another book called Find Your Great Work, and did a print run of like a couple of thousand copies. I was super excited about it. A friend of mine went, “Oh, this is good,” and he sent it to his editor at Workman, which is a New York publishing house. They came back and said they'd like to publish this. I was like, well, I've already published 2000. They're like, well, soon as those are done, we'll redo this book for you. So in 2010, I think, I published a book with Workman in New York. So that was a regular publishing experience. Then 2011, I partnered with Seth Godin, who is a marketing blogger, author, general kind of guru guy. He had a year where he partnered with Amazon and produced a book a year through them, only created through Amazon. I created an anthology called End Malaria. It was pretty exciting, actually. We had like 60 people. They all wrote articles around how to do more great work. All the money raised from that book, not just the profit, but all the money, all the revenue, went to Malaria No More. We raised $400,000, and we hit number two overall on Amazon.com with that. Joanna: I should just say on that, I think, well, one, I'm a fan of Seth Godin. I've talked about him a lot on the show, so my listeners know of him. Also, that's how I think I first heard of you for the first time. I bought that book, and lots of people bought that book, regardless, but to support that as a charitable work. Michael: Yes, it was a project I'm very proud of because I was like, oh, this is using what I can do, which is write books which I know a bit about, and connect with people which I know a bit about. With having the partnership with Seth, I'm like maybe we can make something cool happen here. So the next book wasn't until 2016, but it was my big breakthrough book. It was called The Coaching Habit. It was because I spent four years trying to pitch this book to Workman who published Do More Great Work, as it became called. They kept turning me down. I kept writing the book and designing the book and writing proposal. I went through probably six or seven iterations of the book. I did a lot of writing, and they kept saying, “Ah, no, it's not quite right. We don't like it. Go back and have another go.” At a certain point, Jo, I went, “Okay, this is it. This is the book. Take it or leave it.” I was pretty sure that they would take it because by this stage, Do More Great Work had sold maybe 70,000 copies. So that's a pretty good performance, and I was thinking they would bet on the author, but they didn't. They turned me down. I was affronted and depressed, but at a certain point I was like, there is something here in this book. I explored what I thought was going to be self-publishing, but emerged into kind of hybrid publishing. I work with a company called Page Two, and they have this hybrid publishing model which we can dig into. That came out February 29th, 2016. So February 29th, because I could pick my pub date, and I'm like if this book doesn't sell very many copies, I can say on its first birthday, it sold X number of copies, even though that's a four year stretch. You know, always thinking. That book just took off. So it sold almost 200,000 copies in its first year. It's sold now probably a million and a half copies. Maybe not quite that much, but kind of getting close to that number. Four years later, I published a sister book to that, called The Advice Trap, which is a kind of deeper dive into how do you tame your advice monster. So now I was on a roll. I'm like, I've got this thing. So a book that followed that is called How to Begin, which is about what you do when you hit midlife and you're trying to figure out what you do next. It's how do you find a worthy goal. Then my most recent book is called How to Work with (Almost) Anyone, which came out, I've lost track now, maybe a year ago, bit over a year ago. Somewhere in there, there was one other little book that I published, which was like a daily provocation. It's one of those books with 366 pages, each page is a date with a que

How can we write from the perspective of others while still respecting different cultures? How can a children's book author make money from bulk sales? How is self-publishing in South Africa different? With Ashling McCarthy. In the intro, Spotify for Authors and Katie Cross on self-narration and email marketing; How do I know when to leave my publisher? [Katy Loftus]; and Claude Styles. Today’s show is sponsored by FindawayVoices by Spotify, the platform for independent authors who want to unlock the world’s largest audiobook platforms. Take your audiobook everywhere to earn everywhere with Findaway Voices by Spotify. Go to findawayvoices.com/penn to publish your next audiobook project. This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Ashling McCarthy is a South African author and artist, as well as an anthropologist, graphic designer, and non-profit founder. Her latest book is Down at Jika Jika Tavern, in The Poacher's Moon Crime Series. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes How Ashling's background in anthropology helps in writing books How research can help us write from other perspectives The importance of empathy when writing “the other” Debunking South African stereotypes and tips for visitors The book ecosystem in South Africa Difficulties of selling direct in different countries Marketing your book to schools and creating teaching opportunities Find out more about Ashling at AshlingMcCarthy.co.za. Transcript of Interview with Ashling McCarthy Joanna: Ashling McCarthy is a South African author and artist, as well as an anthropologist, graphic designer, and non-profit founder. Her latest book is Down at Jika Jika Tavern, in The Poacher's Moon Crime Series. So welcome to the show, Ashling. Ashling: Hi, Joanna. Thanks so much. I'm really looking forward to it. Joanna: Yes, great. So first up— Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and publishing. Ashling: Well, writing and publishing has come quite late to me. It wasn't something that I'd ever actually intended on doing. I started off as a graphic designer in South Africa and did a bit of work in the UK, then came home when I was completely homesick. I got into a really interesting craft development program for people who had a three-year qualification in design, and we would be working with women who lived in rural communities in an area called KwaZulu-Natal, where I live. As long as you had a three-year design qualification, they'd match you up with women in rural areas who were very skilled at craft. The idea was that then we would work together to match those skills to create high-end product. So it was really that experience that allowed me to see South Africa in a very different light, and I went on to become an anthropologist and a nonprofit founder. So that took a good probably 15 years of my life and writing a book kind of came out of running the nonprofit. We're an education nonprofit, and we work with rural schools. So children who go to really poorly resourced schools in rural communities in in South Africa. I wanted to write a book for the young women in our communities who didn't have any examples of themselves in books. We would get lots of donations from overseas companies for books, but there was nothing that reflected their lives, their experiences. So I thought, oh, maybe I'll start to write a book that kind of reflects that. So Down at Jika Jika Tavern is actually the first book in The Poacher's Moon Crime Series. I, last year, published the second book, The Leopard in the Lala. How that came about, in terms of writing a crime series versus an educational kid’s book, was that my family was very involved in a game farm with wildlife. Just one day I was thinking about the fact that so many people who live on the outskirts of these game farms have no access to them. So the only chance of them seeing a rhino or an elephant or any other kind of game is from the other side of the fence, and I kind of wondered what that would feel like. So I started to write a story that would bring that to light. It was during our time on the game farm it was the height of rhino poaching, and we had six rhinos poached over a period of time. I really started to get a feel for what the book would be about because there were so many interesting incidences that took place. So for example, a traditional healer was arrested on the neighboring game farm for being involved in rhino poaching. I wanted to understand better, why would somebody who effectively has a calling to do good, why would they be involved in such a heinous crime? We just had so many little interesting things happen that I was able to then weave these real life stories into fiction to better understand why people become involved in rhino poaching and wildlife crime. Joanna: Yes, because being an anthropologist, I mean, obviously that means you're interested in people and what different people do. Talk about what the job of an anthropologist is and how much you use from your career in the books. What are some of the interesting anthropological things you weave in? I mean, you mentioned the traditional healer. Like, what are the other things? Ashling: So I must say, anthropology plays a really big part in my writing. I studied Anthro, got a master's degree in HIV/AIDS and orphan care, and really it was looking at what kind of cultural practices lead to people becoming infected and affected by HIV. It was really those experiences of understanding how culture can have such a huge impact on the way people respond to certain things. So now in my books, I mean, obviously, as a South African, we have 11, in fact, now 12 official languages. We are multi-faith, multicultural, so it's very hard to try and tell a story from one perspective. For me as a white female Christian, how do I write a story that involves many different cultures, different faiths, different belief systems, without it coming across as judgmental or bias? So I really do use the methodologies that we learnt in Anthropology, of curiosity, listening, observing, and trying to understand somebody's perspective from the world that they've come from without bringing in my own thoughts and feelings about that. So it's really interesting and fascinating. I think it helps to better understand why people do things. Then we can look at—I mean, obviously we want to end rhino poaching and wildlife crime, but just telling people not to do it isn't good enough. We have to try and help them work with the systems that they have in place that could lead to a reduction in those actions. Joanna: I love that, and I think that's so good in terms of whatever we're writing, whatever genre, taking the perspective of someone else. I mean, just your examples there, say poaching and HIV, there are some people who might write a story that's like, “Well, they are evil. They're the criminal. They're the bad person because they did this.” Whereas there are some very logical cultural reasons, like good reasons, why these things happen. I mean, but re-education and changing people's minds. I mean, even the economics, right? Sometimes this is done because people need it for money to feed their children or something. So this is all so caught up in things that we often just don't know about. I mean, this is really hard, though. You've spent all these years working with these communities, so you're trying really hard. For people listening who want to write other perspectives, how can normal people who aren't anthropologists with your background write the other? How can people really try to get into the mindset of someone who just lives a completely different life to ourselves? Ashling: I think that's research. I mean, obviously, as I'm writing about poachers, it's very hard to meet a poacher. They're either sitting in prison or they're just totally inaccessible to you. So a lot of research, a lot of interviews, I've read a lot of academic papers. There's a huge amount of academics that are doing research into wildlife crime and have worked with communities. So I think wherever you can't physically meet somebody, or even if it's online, is to really try and read as much as you can. Also, find people who are representative. I mean, what I know about a traditional healer, which we call an Izangoma here, I know very little about that. So I found somebody who I could interview and who explained to me what the perspective of that faith and that calling is, and then why somebody might turn from the calling to do good, to do bad. So I think it really is a lot of research goes into it. It's not just asking one person. Just because I'm writing about a particular character, and then I interview one person, that's certainly not the perception of a number of people from that culture or that faith. In anthropology, we call it triangulation. Finding at least three different sources to verify that information. Joanna: Oh, that's really good. I think that's excellent. As we're recording this, this will go out a bit later, but we're in the last week of the American election. It's just so fascinating to read different perspectives from the polar opposites of a political side of things. I mean the triangulation in that sense—I know that's not South Africa, but we all have these same things, right—the triangulation is really hard if you have two extremes and a moderate somewhere in the middle. I mean, with some of these, it's very, very hard to get into someone else's perspective. Is empathy just a big part of it? Like putting aside who you are to try and really liste

How can you manage the competing priorities of an author career? How can you deal with the demons we all have to wrestle with along the way? Tiffany Yates Martin talks about the role of intuition in decision-making, the challenges of feedback and rejection, and the importance of reclaiming creativity during difficult times. In the intro, Amazon Music Unlimited will now include a free audiobook a month [The Verge]; When to pivot or quit [Self-Publishing Advice]; Thoughts on sunk cost fallacy, and how do you know when things are ending? Are they spiraling up, or down?, Quit: The Power of Knowing When To Walk Away by Annie Duke. Plus, HarperCollins AI licensing deal [The Verge; The Authors Guild]; and Seahenge is out everywhere, as well as at my store, JFPennBooks.com. Today's show is sponsored by Draft2Digital, self-publishing with support, where you can get free formatting, free distribution to multiple stores, and a host of other benefits. Just go to www.draft2digital.com to get started. This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Tiffany Yates Martin is an editor, speaker, and teacher with over 30 years in the publishing industry. She writes contemporary women's fiction as Phoebe Fox, and her latest non-fiction book is The Intuitive Author: How to Grow & Sustain a Happier Writing Career. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Overcoming the “writer demons” Setting priorities to help manage overwhelm Honing into your intuition in relation to your author career Distinguishing intuition from hype or peer pressure Defining goals that are within your control Staying resilient when dealing with feedback and rejection Reclaiming your creative spark in difficult times You can find Tiffany Yates Martin at FoxPrintEditorial.com. Transcript of Interview with Tiffany Yates Martin Joanna: Tiffany Yates Martin is an editor, speaker, and teacher with over 30 years in the publishing industry. She writes contemporary women's fiction as Phoebe Fox, and her latest non-fiction book is The Intuitive Author: How to Grow & Sustain a Happier Writing Career. So welcome back to the show, Tiffany. Tiffany: Thanks for having me again, Joanna. Joanna: So we talked about your background when you were last on the show in April 2022, so today we're going to jump straight into the book. Why did you write this book? What problems did you see in the author community that led you to want to write about happiness and sustainability? Tiffany: I know, it's kind of a departure for me. I've spent all these years as an editor working on hard skills, craft skills, and teaching about that. Then I was actually in the middle of writing what was to have been the follow up book to my first, Intuitive Editing, which was a deep dive into character development. I just kept writing and thinking and talking about these other ideas because I was hearing from a lot of authors that they were feeling overwhelmed by all the changes and the constantly evolving publishing environment. I think it's a fortunate time to be an author because I think we have the opportunity to have more control and autonomy over our careers. We have more avenues than ever before. Publishing has become democratized, but that also brings with it a lot of overwhelm. I was hearing a lot of discouragement, so I started in my blog, where I used to focus a lot on hard skills, I started writing more about this stuff. I just wanted to try to help authors based on what I was hearing and seeing, and they got huge response. So the character book just kept balking at me, and I finally realized that one of the things I kept talking about in my blog posts was to pay attention to your motivation, to what you want out of your career. That's the part that we really have control over, is what our day to day life looks like as authors. So I decided to follow my own advice and turn my attentions to the book that really wanted to be written right now, that I felt like authors probably need more than ever. Joanna: I think that's so important, as much as I'm sure your character book will be amazing if you do do it. I think this is something I felt very much last year, which is the more prescriptive—you call it hard skills there—the prescriptive, “do this, do that.” I mean character development, there's a lot of books on that. Your take would have been different.  Also similar, my last nonfiction book, Writing the Shadow, it's like the personal stuff, the mindset stuff, the lifestyle stuff, all of that actually is something that AI and the machines can't share. I mean, they can share it, but it's not their experience, whereas it is actually our experience. So I agree, I think that's so important. Just on that overwhelm and the changes that are going on, what are some of the things that people are saying to you? Because I think that will resonate with people listening as well. Tiffany: I was startled by how many—particularly in traditional publishing—how many authors were feeling discouraged by what seems to be trends in the industry. I'm a fan of any kind of publishing path that fits an author, so I'm not slamming on traditional publishing, but advances do seem to be going down, in general. There is a fascination with the debut author. So if you're not that shiny new thing, I think that it feels as if traditional publishing doesn't help an author build a following and a career over the span of their career in a way that it used to focus on. So it's like, come on, make a big splash with your book, or else they're moving on without you. As a result of that, a lot of authors—I just talked to one yesterday—are being encouraged to try new genres, to write under a pen name so that you can kind of disown disappointing sales in the past. Competition is higher than ever. There's more than two million books published a year. So I think authors are feeling like it's harder and harder to pop out of the slush pile. Even with indie publishing, with all the opportunity that it offers and the greater autonomy in many areas, there are a lot of different responsibilities authors have to take on. People who are creative aren't always necessarily intuitively business minded, and that's a whole new skill set you have to learn. Then running a business in conjunction with running the creative part, which are both, I think, very consuming pursuits, is a lot. We're trying to balance all of that with our lives. One thing I talk about a lot, and I know you do too, Joanna, is I call them the “writer demons”. It's the things I think writers and creatives have always suffered from keenly. Like imposter syndrome, and competition, and comparison, and procrastination, and self-doubt. It feels like we open up more space for those with all the other overwhelm going on. So it's kind of a combination of all those things. Joanna: Just to stay on those demons because you have in the book, one chapter is called, “When the demons come for you — and they will.” It made me laugh because I think in my The Successful Author Mindset, I've got a section that says, “If you haven't published yet, don't read this,” which is like, do you really want to know all the things that you might feel later on? It's interesting, and I can't remember if you have this in the book, but you just mentioned overwhelm. I feel like another one of the demons is overwhelm, in that we struggle with focus and making a choice. Almost part of the problem is authors are trying to do everything, and you literally cannot do everything. How do we deal with overwhelm in particular? Tiffany: This is a huge question, and I love it because I think it's really relevant. One of the things I talk about in the book is really defining what drives you as a writer and what you want out of your writing career. I think a lot of times we go into it just out of sheer love of the written word, and storytelling, and imagination, exploring our imagination. All that's great, but we have to think about what a writing career actually entails because it's a business. So we have to think about what that's going to mean for us as authors. So I think part of that is setting priorities. I had a friend who we sort of compare notes creatively and in our creative careers. I was really feeling overwhelmed myself. I'm a freelancer, and I'm pretty sure you can relate to this, Joanna, but you build your reputation and your career as a freelancer by being what I call the “yes girl.” It's very common for me to get overwhelmed and overbooked, and it does become hard to work on things and to give your attention when all you can see is the giant mountain of stuff in front of you you have to do. It's hard to start taking a single step at a time. So she suggested that I create a priority list, an actual written priority list of what is most important to me in my career. Not a to-do list, but if I had to stack rank the goals that I have, the things I want to devote my daily attention to, the reality of my writing career day by day, what does that look like? Then when I started to consider what I wanted to say yes to and book myself with, I was able to literally go back to that list and rank it in order of: how important is this to me — Do I realistically have the bandwidth for this, and is it something that needs to be done imminently? So that's one way to start. I do think it's helpful to think of it, especially if you're indie publishing, let's say. With any publishing path, really, there is such a giant pile of things writers are responsible for now. I think more and more, which is part o

How can you write memoir with deep sensory detail? How does terroir in wine equate to the writer's voice? How can you manage your online presence while still protecting yourself from the haters? Multi-award-winning wine writer Natalie MacLean shares her tips. In the intro, initial thoughts on Author Nation 2024, photos from Death Valley @jfpennauthor, Folk horror on The Nightmare Engine Podcast, Walking the Camino de Santiago on the Action Packed Travel Podcast; Introversion and writing the shadow on The Quiet and Strong Podcast. Today’s show is sponsored by FindawayVoices by Spotify, the platform for independent authors who want to unlock the world’s largest audiobook platforms. Take your audiobook everywhere to earn everywhere with Findaway Voices by Spotify. Go to findawayvoices.com/penn to publish your next audiobook project. This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Natalie MacLean is a multi-award-winning wine writer, named World's Best Drinks Writer at The World Food Media Awards, as well as a sommelier, TV wine expert, and host of The Unreserved Wine Talk Podcast. She's also the bestselling author of multiple nonfiction books on wine, including Unquenchable, named as one of Amazon's best books of the year. Her latest book is Wine Witch on Fire: Rising from the Ashes of Divorce, Defamation, and Drinking Too Much. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Challenges of writing memoir compared to journalistic writing Using memoir to tell your Truth Tips for sensory writing from a ‘super taster' What is terroir and how to use it in your writing Maintaining boundaries while still marketing your author brand Dealing with crisis management and managing your mental health How to reach and engage with book clubs Connecting multiple streams of income Utilising podcasting for book marketing in your author business You can find Natalie at NatalieMaclean.com. Transcript of Interview with Natalie Maclean Joanna: Natalie MacLean is a multi-award-winning wine writer, named World's Best Drinks Writer at The World Food Media Awards, as well as a sommelier, TV wine expert, and host of The Unreserved Wine Talk Podcast. She's also the bestselling author of multiple nonfiction books on wine, including Unquenchable, named as one of Amazon's best books of the year. Her latest book is Wine Witch on Fire: Rising from the Ashes of Divorce, Defamation, and Drinking Too Much. So welcome to the show, Natalie. Natalie: It is so good to be back here with you. We've had an initial chat on my podcast [about biodynamic wine and Blood Vintage], but I am so looking forward to this, Jo. Joanna: Oh, yes. So first up, just— Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and publishing. Natalie: Sure. So my career path was probably like a lot of folks. I didn't plan to be a writer. I didn't have the confidence to be a writer. I was brought up by a single mom, single parent mom. She was a school teacher, so she really pounded it into me, make sure you get an education that will get you a job. So I wanted to study English, but no, no. So it was PR and an MBA, and right into the workforce in high tech marketing. Along the way, I was working for a super computer company that was based in Mountain View, California. I'm Canadian, and I still live here, but the head office was down where the campus of Google now is. So I started arranging all of my meetings there when I had to go on Fridays so I could stay over the weekend and drive up to Napa and Sonoma. While I didn't have time to learn golf or pottery or anything else, I was dining out a lot with clients or whatever. So I really grew to love wine. So that sparked my interest in wine. Then while I was off on maternity leave, I thought, well, I have to keep my brain active somehow. I had taken a sommelier course just for fun because that's what type As do. It was a good thing I wasn't taking golf lessons because, you know, long iron clubs and type A, that's just not a good combination. So wine worked. So while I was off on maternity leave, I pitched the editor of a local food magazine because I noticed they had all these gorgeous recipes, but no wine content. I knew just enough about wine to be a little dangerous. She said, yes, okay, have you published before? I said yes, praying that she would not ask me to send samples because all I had was my high school newspaper. So she gave me a chance. The first article or column was “How to Find Wine Food Pairings on the Internet.” That was the headline back then, it's gotten much more specific since. That led to a regular column, which gave me the confidence just to cold call other editors. Then I started landing columns in some of our national newspapers here in Canada and magazines. I didn't know anybody. I was a nobody from nowhere who made a career out of nothing. I loved it so much that by the time my maternity leave was over, which is generous here in Canada, was almost a year, I decided not to go back. I had found something that really sparked a passion. Wine gave me the confidence to write. I had a hook. Otherwise I would have never thought someone's going to pay me to write. Also, I could be home with my son. So it just all worked, and that's kind of how it came together. Joanna: Just on that, should we just be clear that you were not swigging bottles of wine during your maternity! Natalie: Yes. No need to call child services. Mommy doesn't drink while she's pregnant. I had finished the sommelier course while I was pregnant. In all seriousness, I never took a drop, and that remains the health guidance. There are a lot of tips in my book about cutting back on drinking. I didn't mean to write a self-help book, but it kind of turned into that for some people. Definitely, no, I was not swigging. I was not giving my little guy Pinot Noir early on. Wine just touched all my senses. I often say you could do a liberal arts degree with wine as the hub because it ties to all facets of human endeavor. History, art, religion, commerce, science, war, politics. So it just fascinated me, beyond the buzz of it. Joanna: Oh, and let's add dating and sex to the list. Natalie: Oh yes, absolutely. There's a reason why it's a better social lubricant than, say, orange juice. Joanna: Absolutely. That's fantastic. Then, again, just so people know, when was that? It wasn't like last year. How long have you now been doing this? Natalie: So my son was born at the end of '98, and so it's been 25 years. It's been a time. Joanna: I think that's really important because what you just described there, starting out and having nothing, and now you're multi-award-winning. I mean, you are so super successful. I think some people forget the journey, and they just kind of see you now. I mean, I'm not as lauded as you are at all, but people look at how many books I've written, for example, and they're like, how did you do that? I'm like, well, it's 16 years of doing this. So that's the thing, isn't it? It's year after year, and— You've just added to it year after year. Natalie: Yes, and you just keep plugging away at it, and the adage is compare and despair. The mistake that I used to make is I'm comparing my sort of back end—I know what's going on in my life—to somebody else's front end, which looks amazing. Like if you ever look at Instagram, everybody's life's perfect. You don't see what goes on behind the scenes or how long it took them to get there. You also don't see that for every win, whether it's a book published or an award or whatever, there's like 76 losses or no’s from editors or whatever. It's just going up to bat over and over and over and keeping going. Joanna: I think what's interesting about your writing is, obviously, you still write about wine and food pairings on your website, but also for loads of other places. You do reviews, you do articles on wine, but Wine Witch on Fire and some of your other books are much more personal. What are the challenges of writing memoir compared to your more journalistic writing? Natalie: So I've always written from a first person perspective. I like to be conversational. Memoir is a whole, as you know, Jo, is a whole other animal from nonfiction, and even from fiction. Memoir does share so many techniques of fiction. I had to learn a new genre of writing, really. That's how it felt. I had to learn about plot, and setting, and character, and conflict, and themes, and all the rest of it, and dual timelines. All of this I did not have to do when writing a straightforward nonfiction book about wine or travel. It was so complex, and yet that's what also made it exhilarating. Memoir is a true account, or at least the way you understand the truth of what happened in your life, but you have all these other techniques. It's a mountain to climb, but it's definitely doable, but again, you have to keep at it. I took all kinds of online courses. I started listening to your podcast, which has been immensely helpful. So that's one set of challenges. Then with memoir, if you're writing about anything juicy, it's probably something bad that happened to you because no one wants to write about “here's my perfect life, and it all turned out nicely.” So, of course, I write about my no good, terrible, very bad vintage, personally and professionally, in Wine Witch. To do that — You really have to dig into your own dirt, and be honest, be vulnerable, but also, in a sense, you have to relive what you went through. They've done MRI scans on the brains of people who've been through a traumatic car crash, survived, but

What is dark tourism and why are many of us interested in places associated with death and tragedy? How can you write and self-publish a premium print guidebook while managing complicated design elements, image permissions, and more? With Leon Mcanally. In the intro, level up with author assistants [Written Word Media]; and Blood Vintage signing pics. This podcast is sponsored by Kobo Writing Life, which helps authors self-publish and reach readers in global markets through the Kobo eco-system. You can also subscribe to the Kobo Writing Life podcast for interviews with successful indie authors. This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Leon McAnally is the author of A Guide to Dark Attractions in the UK. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes The definition of dark tourism and what types of places it includes Public opinion around dark tourism sites Self-publishing to keep creative control of book design and content Researching historical sites and keeping an organized system How to obtain permissions for publishing images Working with a designer on a photo-heavy book Using book signings and social media as part of a book marketing strategy Managing expectations for research- and design-extensive projects You can find Leon on his Facebook page: Dark Attractions in the UK. Transcript of Interview with Leon McAnally Joanna: Leon McAnally is the author of A Guide to Dark Attractions in the UK, which is brilliant. My quote is on the back, and I said, “A fascinating book for all the dark little souls out there.” So welcome to the show, Leon. Leon: Thank you, Joanna, for having me. Joanna: I'm excited to talk about this topic, and you and I are both dark little souls. First up— Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and self-publishing. Leon: Well, I studied travel and tourism in college. That's where I first learned of this term called dark tourism, places associated with death, suffering and tragedy. I came away looking into these places and was really fascinated with the tourism aspect and the history aspect. My university touched on this topic more, so I went and studied Travel and Tourism at the University of Northampton. I focused a lot around the motivations of dark tourism and the ethical issues around dark tourism. After uni, I wasn't sure what to do, but I wanted to travel to a lot of the places that I'd been writing about, like Auschwitz and the Catacombs of Paris. Then I got into writing because I came across yourself, actually. When I was researching dark tourism, I think you popped up on a website. I started reading your ARKANE thriller series and looked into yourself a bit more, and I was like, you're just an inspiration. Joanna: Thank you. Leon: So it seemed from that, and then yourself. Then I was in Paris visiting the Catacombs at the time, and that evening I sat down and was like, what do I do with myself now? Then I thought to myself, there's no book that covers like dark tourism across the whole of the UK. So, yes, it set me off on a journey, really. Joanna: First of all, I'm really thrilled to inspire you. I'm glad I turned up on some website, that's excellent. Let's just return to this idea of dark tourism. You mentioned places associated with death, suffering and tragedy. You mentioned two places that are quite different, Auschwitz, which of course, is modern horror, really. Then the Paris Catacombs, which, if people don't know, are full of plague dead, but it's bones that are arranged in different ways. I find the Catacombs an awesome place. I'm sure you enjoyed it as well, right? Leon: Yes, definitely. It was really eye opening. Joanna: Exactly. I think those two places are disturbing in different ways. People are like, why are the pair of you interested in this stuff? So what do you think? You mentioned studying the motivations. Why do people visit these places? Why do you and I find these ‘dark tourism' places interesting? Leon: I think there's a number of factors at play. It depends on the place you're visiting because dark tourism is an umbrella term for loads of places, and that's what a lot of people don't realize. So it could be that you go to a memorial to remember people who have tragically died. It also could be a totally different place, and it makes you perceive life differently and how you wish to be known in life, as well as after life. The Victorian cemeteries that are within my book, The Magnificent Seven cemeteries in London, I visited them. So one, they gave me a kind of inspiration and motivated me with my book. Also, I look at the people who are buried there and how they are known after life. Like they were known back when they were alive, and they're still being known, and their story and their life history is being retold. Joanna: I mean, you're still in your 20s, and I'm nearly 50, but— We share this idea around Memento Mori, “remember you will die.” By going to these places, it's almost inspiring—you mentioned the word inspiration—inspiring you on how to live your life. Leon: Yes, that's one thing from each place I've visited, while they are different, it still drives that determination in getting my book out there and getting these places known. There's so many simple memorials to massive tragedies. There's one in Barnsley, a memorial to a coal mine disaster, I believe it killed 361 people. I look at that and think of the Aberfan in Wales, that is an awful disaster as well, and that's a kind of well-known disaster. It tragically killed a number of children, and that's really well known, but I feel like this other one in Barnsley should just be as well-known as that one. Joanna: Yes, if people have seen The Crown, they show that Welsh tragedy on The Crown. I can't remember which series. I get what you mean, like some of these things are more famous than others. For example, Auschwitz, obviously that's not in the UK, but many people will have heard of that and the deaths that went on there. There were so many other camps, that was not like the only camp, but that seems to be what people think of. So as you say, it's remembering the past, but also helping us live in the future. So I did also want to ask, what reactions have you had around this? So do your family think you're weird? Do your friends think you're weird? What are the reactions of people who know you? Leon: When you're going to these places, a lot of people don't consider it dark tourism. You may just go to a castle and learn about executions and walk away, and you don't consider that it is dark tourism, but it falls under this umbrella term. So I'm like, you've participated in dark tourism without knowing it. They do find some of the places that I visited a bit odd and peculiar. There's a place called Littledean Jail. A gentleman has this old jail, and he's filled it with a number of artifacts and newspaper clippings. It's got artifacts to the likes of Fred and Rose West, the infamous serial killers, and the Kray twins. They found that a bit strange. Like, why would you want to go there and see that? That was a very unusual experience. Joanna: Did you find that it was glorifying the serial killers or it was more just exposing them? Leon: Yes. The rooms within the jail, when I walked into Fred and Rose West's cell, it had belongings, like his work boots and a tie and a cabinet, and it had newspaper clippings, obviously, when it all happened. I felt like it was a shrine to them. It was a bit strange. I was like, why would you want to have all of this on display and stuff. In some aspects, yes, you can look at it as it's glorifying these kind of infamous criminals at the end of the day. Joanna: It's interesting that some places, so again, we mentioned the catacombs, I find catacombs where there are bones that are obviously long dead, more, I don't know, more peaceful in some way. Yet, I don't want to visit serial killer things. So I think there are also gradations. So if people listening are like, everything's the same thing, it's not, is it? You can visit one thing and be disturbed, and visit another and feel at peace. It's really tapping into those feelings. Leon: Yes, there's definitely a lot of different emotions and feelings that come into these places. I definitely agree with you on that. If you go into the likes of Princess Diana's grave, you're going there to pay respects and remember her life. You're going to feel a number of different emotions to maybe what you'd feel if you were to visit the Tower of London. You may take a tour, and that's going to be very energized by the tour guide. They're totally on different spectrums, but that's where it's an umbrella term, dark tourism, for all of these different kind of places. Joanna: Yes, so I was thinking too whether it taps into the same thing as the true crime podcast. True crime is the biggest podcast niche, and I feel like perhaps dark tourism is similar. It comes from a similar place, a sort of fascination with death and the macabre. It's having a separation from violence and death, like we're still alive, we're still fine, and sort of reflecting that way. What do you think? Do you think it relates to true crime? Leon: Yes. In some aspects, yes, but it depends how recent the event is because there's got to be some underlying historical factual elements, that dark tourism element. I think the dark tourism has been getting thrown around and been used for marketing of places on the wrong kind of aspects. Places in America and stuff, places that are haunted are marketing themselves as dark tourism. I'm like,

How do you approach writing a second edition of a non-fiction book? How does self-publishing compare to working with a traditional publisher? Can you build a viable business without active social media use? Gin Stephens shares her tips. In the intro, the end of Kindle Vella [Amazon]; Lessons from week one of the book launch for This is Strategy [Seth Godin]; Seahenge is out now on my store, and on pre-order elsewhere; ChatGPT launched Search [OpenAI]; How Generative AI Search Will Impact Book Discoverability in the Next Decade. Write and format stunning books with Atticus. Create professional print books and eBooks easily with the all-in-one book writing software. Try it out at Atticus.io This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Gin Stephens is the New York Times bestselling author of Delay, Don't Deny, Fast. Feast. Repeat., Clean(ish), and other health-related nonfiction books. She's also a podcaster at Intermittent Fasting Stories. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Pros and cons of publishing a second edition of a nonfiction book Tips for bringing a heavy subject alive Breaking through the noise when misinformation surrounds your subject Reasons for going the indie route after traditionally publishing The power of word of mouth marketing How a small paywall can create a more respectful community Social media's impact on mental health Creating an ecosystem — podcast, community, and books You can find Gin at GinStephens.com. Transcript of Interview with Gin Stephens Joanna: Gin Stephens is the New York Times bestselling author of Delay, Don't Deny, Fast. Feast. Repeat., Clean(ish), and other health-related nonfiction books. She's also a podcaster at Intermittent Fasting Stories. So welcome back to the show, Gin. Gin: It is so great to talk to you again. Joanna: Yes, it's been a few years [Gin's previous interview here]. Now, you have recently released the second edition of Delay, Don't Deny, and I completely get the pain of a subsequent edition. It's just a bit of a nightmare. So I wanted to start by asking you— Why did you feel like you wanted to do a second edition of that book instead of writing something new? Gin: Well, that is a great question. I have written new things since writing the original Delay, Don't Deny. This original book that I wrote in 2016, Delay, Don't Deny, and self-published, is just really the bedrock that everything else has been built upon. I've learned so much more about the topic since I wrote it in 2016, and this book just needed a refresh. It needed some love. I really didn't understand how some people love this one the most. I was speaking at an event a few years ago, and someone in the audience said, “Which of your books should we start with? Delay, Don't Deny or Fast. Feast. Repeat.?” Fast. Feast. Repeat. was a New York Times bestseller. It's comprehensive, it's thorough, it's thick. It's every question you could possibly ask about intermittent fasting. It's well referenced. So I said, “Of course start with Fast. Feast. Repeat.“ Then someone in the audience said, “Can I disagree?” I'm like, “Well, go ahead.” She said, “Delay, Don't Deny. I love that one the most.” That got the wheels turning in my head because ever since I moved towards traditional publishing, I hadn't self-published anything. So I thought, people love that original book. I never talked about it anymore, but it kept selling, and people kept buying it. It did need to be updated because some of the advice I did not necessarily agree with anymore. From 2016 to 2024, things are going to change. There were just some things that were out of date, so it deserved some love. You know what kept me from revising it sooner? The audiobook. I didn't want to rerecord the audiobook, and of course, you want them to match. Finally, I just bit the bullet. First I offered it to my publisher, and the amount that they wanted to give me for an advance was so itty bitty. I was like, well, forget that. I'll redo it myself. Joanna: That's interesting. I want to come back. So you said there Fast. Feast. Repeat. I've got these books, I've got several of your books, and Fast. Feast. Repeat., you said it's comprehensive, it's thick, it's well referenced. You're a scientist. You do a lot of research. You are very knowledgeable. Do you think that people don't want the heavily researched book, they just want the story-based book? Gin: Well, it depends on the person. There are people who resonate with each kind, and that's what I realized. I would like the one with all the references in there, definitely. I want to be able to look at them. I actually do that, by the way, when I read a book written by a scientist or a doctor. I'll turn to the reference section, especially if something doesn't sound right, I'm like let me look at that myself. I've actually found places where they did not actually represent the study the same way—after I read it—it's not what they said about it. I also want to correct, I am not a practicing research scientist. I have a master's degree in natural sciences and a doctorate in gifted education. At my root, I'm very much a teacher. I had to write a dissertation, I learned how to research, I learned how to share all of that research as a part of going through my doctoral program. So I just wanted to make that clear. So some people just want the basics, and that's what Delay, Don't Deny is for. So it really needed to be updated, like I said, because the people that preferred, you know, just tell me the quick part, give me the stories, they needed Delay, Don't Deny. Then I actually am now recommending everyone start with Delay, Don't Deny because it might be all you need, but if you want more, that's when it's time to turn to Fast. Feast. Repeat. I also think that once you've lived the lifestyle for a while, everything in Fast. Feast. Repeat. will click, if that makes sense. You'll understand it better, and you're ready to dig into the science more than maybe on day one. Joanna: Yes, I totally agree. I discovered you on the podcast years ago, and I still am IF. It's so funny though, I almost don't say I'm IF anymore because I never eat breakfast, or very occasionally, but mostly I start after lunch sometime and have sort of an 18:6 type of lifestyle, as you say. It's almost like I don't even consider that to be IF anymore. I know you've been doing Intermittent Fasting for years. Do you kind of feel that way sometimes? Gin: It's just what we do. I've been doing it for over 10 years now, and it's just what I do. I don't have to think about it. You're not like, what am I doing today? What's my window? You just live your life, and then you have your window. Going back to how you used to live way back before you started just feels so foreign. You couldn't even imagine doing it. Joanna: No, it's interesting. Coming back on the book, you said it needed a refresh. So I've done several subsequent editions, and I know how that feels. For people listening, how do you know? So you're reading it, and are you just like, “oh my goodness, I can't believe this”? How did you decide what to keep and what to change in the new edition? Gin: Well, I know what questions people have, and I know where the confusions lie. You're familiar with the terminology “clean fast”, and that is foundational in my work. What's funny is, when I wrote Delay, Don't Deny in 2016, we had not started using the terminology “clean fast” in my groups yet. I came up with that wording at some point in 2017, and it stuck. So it's just kind of funny that Delay, Don't Deny doesn't have the wording “clean fast” in it. I also was a little wishy-washy about a few things related to the clean fast and how to fast properly. That was because there was the doctor who had written a book, Dr. Jason Fung, The Obesity Code. He was like, “Well, have a little lemon if you want,” and I didn't want to contradict him in my book. Who am I to contradict him? So I'm like, well, I'll just kind of go along with what he said. Then the longer that I supported people through intermittent fasting and my Facebook groups, we had about 500,000 combined members before I ended up leaving Facebook. So over time I realized the lemon does make a difference, and that little splash of cream does make a difference. So I became more emphatic, I guess is the word I would use, about the clean fast, just because we had it validated with so many people who found that the clean fast changed the whole experience. So I developed confidence, and I can say with confidence, this is how it works better, and you should give this a try. By the time Fast. Feast. Repeat. came out in 2020, I was really embraced to the idea of the clean fast and very confidently saying, “This is what I think would work for you better. Try this.” So I needed to get that into Delay, Don't Deny as well. Not to mention the success stories in the back. Looking back at it through fresh eyes today, when I wrote Delay, Don't Deny, I was just leading a small Facebook group. At that time we had like, I don't know, 1500 members or something. I can't even remember. So I just put out into the group, “Hey, anybody want to share their story in my book? Just send it to me and I'll put it in,” but I hadn't written anything yet. I didn't have any podcasts yet. I was just leading people who had joined together in a Facebook group. So the stories are just very ‘interesting' that are in the original Delay, Don't Deny. I'm just going to say they're ‘interesting' because I'm so grateful for the people who share

What are some of the key elements in writing horror? How can you be successful writing and self-publishing in the genre? With Boris Bacic. In the intro, ISBNs made easy [Self-publishing Advice]; Written Word Media’s 2024 author survey; Taylor Swift self-publishing [Morning Brew]; Thoughts on audiobooks [Seth Godin]; This is Strategy: Make Better Plans – Seth Godin; Plus, Orna Ross and I talk about our response to Google NotebookLM, while the AI hosts discuss indie author myths [Self-Publishing Advice Podcast]; Seahenge: A Short Story available now and on pre-order. This podcast is sponsored by Kobo Writing Life, which helps authors self-publish and reach readers in global markets through the Kobo eco-system. You can also subscribe to the Kobo Writing Life podcast for interviews with successful indie authors. This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Boris Bacic is a bestselling horror author from Serbia, with more than 30 books and short stories. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Unique platforms for publishing horror short stories Subgenres of horror and how they have evolved Catering to an English-speaking market Finding inspiration from personal experience and place Deciding whether an idea is best for a short story or full-length book Different channels to earn an income from short stories Why some books succeed in KU and others flop Considerations when writing a horror series Networking and community for horror writers You can find Boris at AuthorBorisBacic.com. Transcript of Interview with Boris Bacic Joanna: Boris Bacic is a bestselling horror author from Serbia, with more than 30 books and short stories. So welcome to the show, Boris. Boris: Thanks for having me here. Joanna: I'm excited to talk to you. So first up— Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and publishing. Boris: I started writing when I was a kid. Back then, it was fantasy. This was before the era of computers and whatnot. I was writing in my notebook. I guess somewhere along the line, it just kind of morphed into horror. I didn't get into publishing until I was in my late 20s. I had started writing short stories for Creepypasta.com, for Reddit's NoSleep forum, and after about 20 or so unsuccessful stories, one of my stories went viral. This was a big thing for me because so many people wanted to collaborate. YouTube narrators, Creepypasta animators, and so on. So this was a big thing for me. Somewhere along the line, one of them had asked me, like, why don't I publish a book? I said, no, no, that's not for me. I'm not cut out to be a writer. After some time, after more successful stories, I said, okay, I'm going to take the plunge. I knew nothing about publishing, and after unsuccessful attempts to find agents and publishers, I ran into 20Booksto50K. This gave me a completely new perspective on self-publishing, because up until then, I had thought that self-published authors did not earn any money at all. So this was a new thing for me, and that's eventually how I got into publishing my novels. Right now, I have more than 30. Joanna: Wow. Okay, a few questions to come back on. First of all, explain to people what Creepypasta is. Because I think a lot of people won't know. Boris: So Creepypasta.com, this used to be very popular back in the day. This was a website where lots of scary short stories would be hosted. So anybody could write, anybody could post them there. If they were good enough, they would be approved. Eventually, a similar sub-reddit came out, which was NoSleep. This is exactly what it is, how it sounds. It is a forum where people can post short stories. This was very popular back in the day because so many YouTube narrators started adapting them into narrations, and they start adding creepy music over there. This was a very good way for aspiring authors, and even established authors, to reach new audiences. Joanna: I thought Creepypasta stories also had a sort of internet meme thing, in terms of the sort of tropes. Are there tropes specifically for these forums? Boris: There are definitely lots of tropes over there, and one of the popular ones that arose from there was the type of horror where there are rules you need to follow. It became so oversaturated with this after a while, that it's like if you enter a church, don't look over your shoulder. Don't enter after 3am and so on. So this became very popular. It was very scary back in the day, and so many stories arose from it. Even my first published anthology was exactly like that. A security guard, because I used to be a security guard, who is working in a paranormal place, and he needs to follow a set of rules. There are lots of these that are sort of outdated now, but I can see that even trad authors have started using some of the Creepypasta tropes. Joanna: You've said “back in the day” a couple of times. So is this not a viable place now? Is Reddit kind of—well, it's not done, is it? Is Reddit still somewhere that somebody starting out now might have a look at? Boris: Oh, absolutely. Reddit is an excellent place. Creepypasta, not so much. The last time I checked, it was just not the same. I can see that most of the interest is coming from NoSleep. We've even had a lot of aspiring authors, like me, who wrote short stories to Reddit, then they had them published into novels. I've even seen a few authors who actually got really big movie deals. So NoSleep, Reddit generally, and stuff like WattPad, these are very good platforms for that sort of thing. Joanna: Interesting. So let's just take a step back into horror in general. In fact, as we record this today, my folk horror novel, Blood Vintage, finishes on Kickstarter. I've had so many people—I mean, it's folk horror, which is a very small sub niche—but people say, “Oh, I never read horror.” Then I say, oh, well, it's more a sort of eerie sense of place with folklore. Then they're like, “Oh, okay. Well, that sounds interesting.” So I wondered if you'd come across this in terms of, “I never read horror,” Horror is not just slasher/gore. What else does horror encompass? Boris: Well, unfortunately, there's still a lot of stigma around horror, even in today's era. When people see horror, they think either a bloodbath or occult Satanism. This kind of dissuades them from reading because this is the two stuff that has evolved from the 80s. Horror has advanced a lot. It has evolved a lot, and it has branched out into this multifaceted thing where we can see it in so many different genres. It blends with everything. We see it in psychological thrillers. We see it in romance and fantasy, everywhere. It's no longer just about whatever gore is going on over there. It has sort of evolved into this psychological thing. Lots of people who say they don't read horror, chances are they do, they're just not aware of it because it's such a personal thing. It's such a unique thing, and we each experience it in our own way. Something that is scary to you may not be scary to me and vice versa. This is the beautiful thing about it. I personally like the type of horror like you mentioned in your book. This buildup of suspense, the atmospheric buildup, this is my favorite kind. There's nothing more beautiful and harder than that, when it just sort of builds up to a crescendo that by the time you realize what's going on, it's already too late. It's not always going to be about cutting off limbs, or being chased by monsters, or seeing boogeyman in the closets. What terrifies me more is this personal kind of thing, like loss of a loved one. It can be claustrophobia, like being stuck in an elevator. To someone that is absolute horror. It can be isolation. So for the people who say they don't like to read horror, they don't want to read it because of this, I can say they're probably already reading it. They're already seeing it every day. They're just sort of desensitized to it. Joanna: Yes, I know what you mean. The word still has the stigma, as you say, but often people are labeling things differently. For example, dark fantasy, I think, has a big crossover. Do you ever label it as anything else? Boris: So sometimes it's really difficult to categorize it. That's the thing. Since I write so many different subgenres, horror specifically, it goes into so many different directions. Sometimes somebody who reads a thriller, he's going to say, “This was a scary book. This was horror.” Whereas for me, it might be a different experience. Oftentimes, it's really difficult to label what exactly it is. It's not clear cut. It's not like cut and dry that we know exactly what's going on. It's very abstract. I sometimes write abstract stuff that I don't even know what genre it is going to fit in. It, again, comes back to what the reader feels about it. So some people are going to tell me this was a very good thriller book. So I tell them, okay, but I didn't have in mind to write a thriller book. This was supposed to be horror, but for them, that was what they saw. Joanna: Yes, I think it's interesting. Now, one of the subgenres I love—I love some really small niches—and one is merfolk horror, so bad mermaids and bad mermen. So I have your book, They Came From The Ocean, on my to-be-read list at the moment. I wondered— What are some of the horror tropes you love and come back to? You said you write all over the place, but what do you come back to? And what do your readers love best? Boris: The good thing is that my readers are very diverse, and I'm very grateful for that because when I did st

How do you successfully scale an author business? How do you delegate to your team as well as continue to research and write the books you love? With award-winning crime author, Rachel McLean. In the intro, new Kindle devices [Amazon]; new European markets for Spotify audiobooks [Spotify]; customisable audio with Google NotebookLM; Amazon Ads launches new AI tools for advertisers; Enhancing Creativity with AI Tools [ALLi]; My Lessons Learned from 10 Million Downloads of the show; and Blood Vintage Kickstarter wrap-up. Today's show is sponsored by Draft2Digital, self-publishing with support, where you can get free formatting, free distribution to multiple stores, and a host of other benefits. Just go to www.draft2digital.com to get started. This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Rachel McLean is the award-winning author of the Dorset Crime series, as well as other crime books, and has now sold over 2 million copies. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Making the decision to scale your author business Hiring multiple freelancers with different skillsets Money and lifestyle as a source of motivation Writing with multiple co-authors and creating a small imprint How to write what readers want to read Moving your readers from KU to other platforms Selling audiobooks direct using Shopify and BookFunnel Using AI tools for location research Publishing videos on socials to humanize your brand You can find Rachel at RachelMcLean.com. Transcript of Interview with Rachel McLean Joanna: Rachel McLean is the award-winning author of the Dorset Crime series, as well as other crime books, and has now sold over 2 million copies. So welcome back to the show, Rachel. Rachel: Thank you for having me. Joanna: I'm excited to talk to you today. Now, you were last on the show in November 2022, and we talked about how you pivoted into crime fiction. So we're just going to jump straight into things today. You started out with your Dorset Crime series, but you now have five series in total, and you work with multiple authors under your imprint, Ackroyd Publishing. How has your business changed over the last few years? Rachel: In some ways it hasn't changed that much, and in other ways, it's changed massively. So the core of my business, which is about writing crime books that readers want to read, I write in a very similar style. Obviously, my craft has developed over that time. I'm really like doubling down on engaging with readers, I see that as actually, after the writing, my most important job because that's the thing that I can do, and my team can't do for me. So that hasn't really changed, apart from the fact that it is scaled because I've got so many more readers now. In the sort of day-to-day management of my business, that has changed hugely. I've now got a team of seven people who work for me. They're all freelance. They each work a couple of days a week, and they do various roles. I've got a publishing and production team, and they project manage all the books, do the cover design, pull all the files together, manage the editorial and so forth. Then I've got a marketing team who help me run my shop and do advertising and data for me. I've got somebody who liaises with bookshops. I've got somebody who does AV work for me. I've also got a number of co-authors who I work with now. A lot of my books are co-authored with people who I've known for years and who I've been working with as part of my writing group for years. That enables me to sort of manage a bigger business, which takes up more of my time, while still producing more books now than I was able to produce without them. Also, it's really good fun, particularly on the creative side when you're generating ideas for a new book or a new series, I get to work with other people. So we'll go for a trip to the location that the book's going to be in, and we'll walk around, and we'll sit in cafes and things. We'll chat about what's going to be in the book, and we'll come up with ideas. It's really enjoyable. Joanna: Oh, so many follow up questions. The first one I have is—and this is quite a personal thing for me, and also people listening—because I feel like what you have done is you have gone from being an author to essentially being the CEO of a much bigger business. Like you said, you have seven people you're co-writing. So at some point, you made the decision, I am going to scale the size of my business and the income, obviously. You decided that there was something you wanted to do around running a bigger publishing company. How did you make the decision to scale your business? Obviously, it is a much bigger deal than, like me, I have not made that choice. It's something I come up against over and over again, and I always step back from. It's like I actually don't want a bigger business. So what was that moment, so other people listening might be able to figure that out for themselves? Rachel: Yes, it's interesting because I always thought I didn't want a bigger business and I didn't want to manage people. I think that's because my experience of managing people in the past had been in huge organizations. I worked for government agencies and all sorts where it was very process driven. You had to do performance management on a certain day, and you had to manage people in a certain way, and you and they didn't really have all that much freedom over what you did. Whereas I'm finding that managing people within my own business is very different because A, I get to recruit them, and I get to find people who are a really good fit for my business and have got the skills that I need and skills often that I don't have. Then B, I get to work with them in a way that works for us, and it's really flexible because we're such a small business. It's not like one person has a particular job title and they can only do that thing. People end up dipping into other people's jobs, and we all work really closely together. I get everybody together on a fairly regular basis. So we've got a Christmas lunch planned in December. We have an away event in the spring where we all go down to Dorset and have a couple of days together. We have a summer lunch where we get all our editors and narrators and everybody, the whole full team together. So I found that I enjoy that much more than I thought I might. I really do enjoy it. The point at which I had that light bulb moment, I guess in a way, I went to the 20Books Mastermind in Majorca immediately after Self-Publishing Show last year. I went to that specifically with the goal of talking to people who were very successful, and had been very successful for a long time and were sustaining that. I wanted to learn from them because I was at a point where the Dorset Crime series had taken off. The Kindle Storyteller Award had a massive impact on my sales, and I didn't know how to sustain that. I knew that the workload involved in that was more than I could do on my own. At that point, I was thinking, well, I need to sort of clone myself. I need to find somebody who would do all the business side of things. I actually offered that job to my wife, and she turned it down. Joanna: I'm glad she did. Saved your marriage! Rachel: I'm glad she did now, as well, because we're much happier having different jobs. She has a job. She works for the University of Birmingham, and she's very happy doing that. It's a whole different type of environment from what I do. I went to the Mastermind in Majorca, and there was a talk on running your publishing business with a team. The light bulb for me with that was the fact that you don't have to hire one person to do the business management. You can hire multiple people to each do a part of it and to each work a certain number of hours. I already had a PA, Jane. She's theoretically a VA, but she lives quite close to me, so she's not all that virtual. We do see each other. She was already doing some of the admin for me, but I needed somebody to manage the publishing process for each book. That was the thing that I was finding was a real sticking point for me because I have a terrible memory. I was forgetting what the deadlines were. I was uploading books to the KDP Dashboard moments before I had to in order to fulfill a pre-order. I was really disorganized. I was thinking, how do I find this person who can manage that process for me? It just so happens that Rebecca Collins from Hobeck Books, she and I are friends, and she posted something on Facebook about some work that she was doing for another client that was exactly that work. I thought, oh, hang on a minute, I didn't know Rebecca did that. So I gave her a call, and we had a chat, and it turned out that she had availability, and she had exactly the skills I need. So it started with Rebecca, and then it slowly grew. So I've sort of added one person at a time, and over time people's roles have grown, so there's been more work for them to do. Rebecca's gone from doing one day a week to doing two days a week. I've got Catherine Matthews, who also works for SPS, she's running my shop. The great thing is she also runs Clare Lydon's shop. She learns things when she's doing each of our shops that she then uses in the other one, which works for both me and Clare. Clare and I are friends as well. She writes LesFic, and I think I recommended Catherine to Clare. Having people on my team who have got experience and skills in areas that I don't necessarily have, or who can dedicate a bit more time to learning about something specific. So the Shopify store, Catherine and I were bo

The Creative Penn Podcast just hit 10 million downloads as reported by my audio host, Blubrry! The podcast is also the main content on my YouTube channel @thecreativepenn, which has had over 3.9 million views, so the total could be closer to 14m. I'm pretty happy with that, so thanks for listening! Here are some fun stats, and then I share 7 lessons learned that are also applicable for authors and other creatives. Start where you are and improve your craft, tools, and technology over time Focus on value for the listeners (or readers) Everyone starts with no audience, no email list — and no clue! It's all about the relationships you build along the way People want to know about you. Decide on your boundaries — before you're forced to. Podcasting (or being an author) can be a viable business — if you design it that way. You will only sustain what is ‘worth it' to you over the long term. Persistence and time in the market make a big difference. You can find The Creative Penn Podcast on your favourite podcast app, or the backlist and links are here. The Creative Penn Podcast Stats My first episode went out on 15 March 2009, and there are now 775 episodes of the podcast. Links to all at TheCreativePenn.com/podcast. The show has been downloaded in 229 countries with the top three countries being the USA (61%), UK (12%), and Australia (7%), and the most surprising being 2 downloads from Antarctica! The four most downloaded episodes through Blubrry are as follows: Writing fiction and improving your fiction book description with Michaelbrent Collings (28,264 downloads) How to use mystery to hook your readers with Jonah Lehrer (28,215) Tips for indie author success and 20BooksTo50K with Craig Martelle (28,199) Author mindset: Strengths for writers with Becca Syme (27,786) The four most watched/listened to on YouTube are quite different: Improve your dialogue with James Scott Bell (75,200) How to sell a million books with CJ Lyons (59,689) How to write a novel with the snowflake method with Randy Ingermanson (54,209) Story Engineering with Larry Brooks (52,520) Why are these numbers so different? An audio podcast generally gets a relatively stable number of people listening every week, so there is less variability in listening numbers. YouTube is based on search and algorithms, so some videos get a LOT of views and others get almost nothing. 7 Lessons Learned From Over 10 Million Podcast Episode Downloads (1) Start where you are and improve your craft, tools, and technology over time You don't need to know everything in advance in order to write a book, or publish, or start a podcast. Just get started and learn and adapt along the way. I recorded my first podcast interview in March 2009 over a landline, which I put on speakerphone, next to which I placed a handheld digital audio recorder. I didn't really know what I was doing, but despite my nerves, I was still able to interview a breakout self-published author in the Australian book scene, Rachael Bermingham. (I lived in Brisbane, Australia at the time.) I've always done extensive research on my guests and provided questions in advance, but my interview skills have definitely improved since then — both as a host and a guest. Everything gets better with practice, and that includes your writing, too! My tools have also changed. My recording went from a phone to Skype to Zoom and now Riverside.fm, and I've upgraded my microphone (and pop filter) several times. I used to just record in any room with the accompanying echo noises Later, I moved into a padded cupboard, and now I have a home audio booth where I record my solo episodes, weekly introduction, and my audiobooks. Joanna Penn's home audio sound booth My editing tools went from Audacity to Amadeus Pro, and I now use Descript.com to edit the main audio before mastering with Amadeus Pro and Auphonic. I still use the same WordPress plugin, Blubrry, which is one of the oldest and most reputable independent podcast hosts. I have always paid for hosting the feed, first on AWS and then on Blubrry itself. As ever, I really love my independence! If you're not paying for a product, then question how that company is making money. Is your content actually the product? (as is the case for most social media platforms). the logo has changed over the years as well, both for the podcast and my brand. Get started and reinvent as you go. (2) Focus on value for the listeners (or readers) If you try to write a book in a market you don't read, you will likely get it wrong and readers won't resonate with the content or buy more from you. If you start a podcast without an understanding of what the audience want, then you will fail in a similar way. But you can avoid this by BEING the audience you seek to connect with. When I started The Creative Penn Podcast in 2009, I had self-published a couple of non-fiction books, and I'd learned so much from those initial failures that I wanted to share what I'd learned. Me in brisbane, australia, 2009, with my first 3 self-published books, all now rewritten, updated, re-issued under different titles, multiple times! I was also really lonely and I didn't have any author friends or a community. I wanted a way to virtually meet and talk to other authors so I could learn from those ahead of me on the path— and maybe make some friends. Over the years since, I've continued to interview people who I want to talk to and learn from as well as share my own lessons learned from the author journey. I never designed a podcast for a target market. I didn't have to, because I was that market. It's the same with my books. I don't write to market. I just write books about what I learn (non-fiction), or stories I would want to read (fiction). The content of the podcast has changed over time, and these days, I focus much more on the business of being an author as well as the writing craft. But I'm still an author and a podcaster, and I'm still learning things, so I am still my own audience and the downloads demonstrate the content is clearly still of value, because I am still getting downloads of the show, and still selling books. (3) Everyone starts with no audience, no email list — and no clue! Back in 2009, podcasting wasn't popular, and it didn't really move into the mainstream until the true crime podcast Serial took off in 2014. Between 2009 and 2014, it often felt like I was howling into the wind, as tumbleweed rolled past in the empty desert. Those were also the years when self-publishing was considered ‘vanity press' and when authors who went indie were generally shunned and considered to be desperate wannabes instead of smart business people. Thankfully, that has mostly changed, and the fights about indie vs trad have dissipated, to be replaced by fights about AI and whatever is the latest drama in Authorlandia! From 2014, my traffic started to take off and grew for a few years before leveling off and has remained pretty steady over the last 5+ years. Episodes now get between 8000 – 20,000 downloads, depending on the topic. But like everyone, I started with no audience, no readers, no listeners, no books, no income from my creative work. I just worked steadily for years, producing content in different ways. Slowly, people discovered the show and my books, mainly through word of mouth and SEO (search engine optimisation) since I have never advertised the podcast. So take heart if you are just getting started. Create, put your content out there, in whatever medium you choose, and over time, you will attract an audience. (4) It's all about the relationships you build along the way The Creative Penn Podcast really has changed my life in so many ways, and the relationships I've built are perhaps the most important part. It helped me find other indie authors who were doing what I wanted to do, and I was able to meet many of them online and at conferences. Some of those initial conversations on the show turned into IRL friendships, and others turned into business opportunities and collaborations. Me with Orna Ross and Sacha Black, two great friends I made through the podcast There's also the relationships with you, the listeners of the show, even if I don't know all of your names. Audio is such a personal and intimate medium, and long-form audio even more so. You know so much about me — more than my family sometimes! — and when we meet in person, or you email with your thoughts, I know there is more of a connection because you listen to the show. Thank you for making me part of your weekly listening time! As an author, you need other writers for a sustainable long-term career. You need people who understand the challenges of the creative life. You need a community, even if you're an introvert, happy working on your own most of the time. You don't need a podcast for this. You can find people through online groups, going to conferences, and social media. But then take it a step further. We are humans, we need other people! If you resonate with someone, connect with them for a coffee offline, or have a private zoom call. This is ‘friend dating' and it's something you'll need to do multiple times over your career as you change, your friends change, and maybe you change locations and life circumstances. (Obviously, this needs to be appropriate to your life and family situation, as well as your stage on the author journey.) (5) People want to know about you. Decide on your boundaries — before you're forced to. For the first few years of the podcast, I didn't do an introduction. I just jumped straight into the interview. After all, no one wanted to know about me or my life — but it turned out they did! A listener

Can you be successful as an author across different genres and different pen names? How do traditional publishing and going indie compare? How can you diversify into multiple streams of income as an author? With Emily E.K. Murdoch. In the intro, Planning for retirement [Self-Publishing Advice]; my list of money books; Red flags in serialised (and other) fiction contracts [Self-Published Advice]; The Author's Guild partners with Created by Humans for AI licensing; Nobel Prizes for AI-related research [The Economist]; Last chance for Blood Vintage, and where did the idea come from?; plus, what I'm working on next. Today's show is sponsored by ProWritingAid, writing and editing software that goes way beyond just grammar and typo checking. With its detailed reports on how to improve your writing and integration with writing software, ProWritingAid will help you improve your book before you send it to an editor, agent or publisher. Check it out for free or get 15% off the premium edition at www.ProWritingAid.com/joanna This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Emily E K Murdoch is the USA Today bestselling author of over 100 historical romances across medieval, western and regency, and mixed between steamy and sweet. She's also the author of nonfiction history book Regina: The Queens Who Could Have Been under Emily Murdoch Perkins. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Discovery writing vs outlining — how it affects your drafting and editing speed How to research in-person and online Securing a nonfiction traditional publishing deal Maintaining creative autonomy with a traditional publishing contract Opportunities that arise from being traditionally published Writing under different names for different genres Tips for pitching blurbs for your book How traditional publishers help with PR Diversifying your author business and creating multiple streams of income You can find Emily at EmilyEKMurdoch.com. Transcript of Interview with Emily E K Murdoch Joanna: Emily E K Murdoch is the USA Today bestselling author of over 100 historical romances across medieval, western and regency, and mixed between steamy and sweet. She's also the author of nonfiction history book Regina: The Queens Who Could Have Been under Emily Murdoch Perkins. So welcome to the show, Emily. Emily: Thank you so much for having me. It's a real joy to be here. Joanna: Oh, yes. There's so much to talk about, but first up— Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and publishing. Emily: Well, I am one of those authors who very much grew up knowing that I wanted to be a writer. It's a family legend that my end of year report at five years old includes the phrase, “Emily keeps telling us she's going to be an author.” So I very much started strong, but it was one of those things that was always going to be in the future. I was chatting about my dreams, about wanting to be an author, wanting to write, with a boyfriend as we were coming up to university graduation. I said, “Look, I will be an author one day. It's absolutely going to happen.” You know, with all the confidence of a 21 year old. “But, obviously that is something I'll do when I'm older. I'll have to do a proper job first. So maybe in my 40s, 50s, 60s, when I've had a career, that's what I'll do.” He looked at me and was like, “I don't understand why you've got to wait. I don't see why you can't write a book right now.” And reader, I married him! I also published for the first time two years later. I was able to quit my job and “retire” into full time creativity before I turned 30. Joanna: Ooh. Everyone's like, okay, okay. So first up, excellent, that you married such a supportive person. I know some people listening will be like, oh my goodness. They're jealous because I think that's quite rare for someone to say that. Let's get into this hundred books. Give us an idea how many years ago that was and how you then progressed. Emily: My first book came out in 2013, so that's 11 years ago. It was written and finished the year before then. I thought, I'll be smart about this. I'll take it to a publisher who really understands historical romance, which was the novel. So I actually submitted to Harlequin, which is part of HarperCollins. I'm going to be honest, I didn't understand how slow traditional publishing was. I waited six months for a reply, which to me, was an age. Eventually I got tired, and I withdrew it, and I took it elsewhere. I do wonder sometimes what might have been if I'd stuck it out. I do actually now publish, ironically, with Harlequin HarperCollins. So I've kind of come full circle in that way. So, yes, 11 years. 11 years, and I went full time after eight. So it was very much an overnight success with an eight year slow burn. Joanna: Tell us how you're writing so fast. I feel like a lot of romance authors—the books are shorter, aren't they? So that is one aspect. Tell us about that. Emily: Yes and no. Some of my historical romances are novellas. They're 30,000 to 40,000 words, so they are on the shorter end. One of my historical romance series is at least over 100,000 – 110,000 per book. So there's a real spread in terms of how long I write. There are certain things you can teach about being a fast author. It's something that I do teach, and I do mentor and advise other authors on, but there is something I think innate. I don't want people to ever feel like they should be forcing themselves to write faster. Having said that, I write 10,000 words a day, every working day. So that enables me to build up quite a backlog. It means that I can rapid release, whatever that looks like for you. Some of my rapid releases have been a book every three months. I've done a book every month. I did a series once which was 12 Christmas novellas based on the 12 Days of Christmas song, and I released a novella a week for 12 weeks. October, November, December, the lead up to Christmas one year. So there's a real range there. Joanna: I think this is so interesting because when you first said to your now husband, “I'll write it one day,” he said, “do it now,” you didn't just write one book. I feel like that's the other part of it— If somebody wants to be a writer, it isn't just one book. Did you meet other people along the way who were like, how are you doing this? Like, shouldn't you just write one book for 10 years? Emily: There are certainly people who maybe are new to publishing, or don't know publishing at all, and have this kind of Patrick Rothfuss or George R R Martin, “oh, it takes a decade to write a good book” mindset, and that's true sometimes. Sometimes really great books come out of a decade of working, and reworking, and editing, and putting it down and picking it up again. Really good books can also be written really fast. That has been a challenge for me in my craft because I can write very fast, and then I hate editing. So it's very easy for me to be tempted to go, well, it's written. I mean, it's written, my editor can worry about fixing it. Actually, over the last, I would say five years, I've really tried to work on my editing myself, my own words, because actually there is that 10%, 20%, 30% improvement that I can bring before it even goes to another set of eyes. Actually, that's when things slow down for me. The writing itself is very fast, but the editing is where that refinement and that polishing comes, as much as I loathe it. I'm quite open about the fact that I really struggle. It's just self-criticism, which is not something many creators enjoy. Joanna: That's so interesting. I think there's people who love first draft like you, and people who love editing, like me. I feel like my first draft is not fun. I love the research, I love the ideas, I love kind of noodling around. Then— I guess because I'm a discovery writer, I find it quite difficult to do the first draft. Then I love, love editing. I feel like my self-edit is where a lot of the work is done. So I think that there are two types of people in that kind of writing. Emily: I completely agree. I do wonder if we mapped plotters versus pantsers across people who love first drafts or people who love edits, I think there'll be a strong correlation. I love plotting. I'm a deep plotter. I plot very heavily before I write. So when I write, I write very fast, partly because I know exactly where I'm going. I even have dialogue snippets, descriptions, every scene is outlined. All I'm doing is following the pegs in a line along a road, and I know exactly where I'm going. So when it comes to edits, it feels like I'm second guessing all the previous work I've put in. I've got lots and lots of author friends who, like yourself, are discovery writers. They're pantsing. For them, the edits are where they spot all the clues that their subconscious laid down for them that they didn't notice at the time. So that is really joyful for them. I do wonder if there's a correlation there. Joanna: I think you're probably right. I also think that people who do plot are more consistent with the 10,000 words a day, or whatever, because you know what you're going to write. Whereas some days I might write—well, I don't ever really write that much. Some days I'll sit down and I find I kind of have a feeling for this scene, it might happen, and then some days it won't. So for people listening, it really doesn't matter how your process works. With the finished book, you wouldn't be able to tell how someone constructed it, basically. I do just want to ask on your research. I love research, and one of

How can the ‘hungry author' mindset help you become more of a successful author? Why do you need to shift your point of view to that of the reader so your book resonates with them? What are some of the key aspects of writing and marketing non-fiction books? Ariel Curry gives her tips in this episode. In the intro, tackling imposter syndrome [Ink in Your Veins]; Novel Study: Decoding the Secrets and Structures of Contemporary Fiction by Kristen Tate; StoryBundle for Writers; Publishing for Profit conference from ALLi; Tap to Pay on mobile for live events [Zettle/PayPal]; Blood Vintage and Discovery Writing webinar; I'm on The Unreserved Wine Talk Podcast, and The Nightmare Engine Podcast. Plus, Leveraging AI for book covers and ads [Brave New Bookshelf]; More controls coming for Google NotebookLM [VentureBeat]; Meta’s new generative video model, Movie Gen. Today’s show is sponsored by FindawayVoices by Spotify, the platform for independent authors who want to unlock the world’s largest audiobook platforms. Take your audiobook everywhere to earn everywhere with Findaway Voices by Spotify. Go to findawayvoices.com/penn to publish your next audiobook project. This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Ariel Curry is a writer, editor and book coach, and the co-author of Hungry Authors: The Indispensable Guide to Planning, Writing, and Publishing a Nonfiction Book. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes What is a hungry author? The mindset needed for a long-term author career Subgenres of nonfiction and how to find and market to their audiences Key elements of a book map Writing with a reader-focused mindset Top reasons why editors and agents reject books The importance of platform for nonfiction authors Leveraging podcasts for marketing nonfiction books You can find Ariel at HungryAuthors.com Transcript of Interview with Ariel Curry Joanna: Ariel Curry is a writer, editor and book coach, and the co-author of Hungry Authors: The Indispensable Guide to Planning, Writing, and Publishing a Nonfiction Book. So welcome to the show, Ariel. Ariel: Thank you so much for having me, Joanna. I'm so happy to be here. Joanna: Great. Well, first up— Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and the publishing industry. Ariel: Sure. Well, like many people in the publishing industry, I was an English major who didn't really know what she wanted to do. I thought I might do teaching. I tried that for a little bit. That did not go well. So I thought, you know what, why not just shoot for the stars? I've always loved books, and so I thought, well, it never hurts to apply to publishing internships. So I did that. I got an internship in London at Anthem Press, which is a little bit more of an academic publisher. That eventually led to a role as an editorial assistant at Corwin Press in California. Then from there, I moved up the ladder to acquisitions editor. Then I took a little bit of a break from the traditional publishing corporate world for a few years. I was freelancing, I was doing collaborations, and I was doing developmental editing. Then just recently, I decided to rejoin the corporate publishing industry, and I took a role as an acquisitions editor at Sourcebooks. So that's where I am currently, and I specialize in nonfiction. Joanna: What is it like being on the other side of the fence as an author? Ariel: It is a lot of fun. The thing that I always remind authors of is it's a business. So my job there is to be an investor in great ideas, and great writers, and great writing. I think that's the part that a lot of people don't necessarily understand. Sometimes it's a little sad because it seems to take some of the romance and the feelings of creativity out of it, I think, but at the end of the day, everyone in the publishing industry just truly loves books. So we totally get the romance and the special feelings that come with pouring everything that you have into a book. Someone has to be the person to make it successful on a broad scale. That's what people in the publishing industry are here to do is to take the very, very, very best of writers and writing and help to blast that, hopefully as to as wide an audience as possible. That's what we're all here to do. Sometimes it takes a little bit of the romance away, but honestly, I absolutely love what I do. I love working in the corporate publishing sphere, so I don't see that going away anytime soon. Joanna: That's great. Well, let's get into the book because I think it is good to know of your background, too. For nonfiction authors, in particular, is what we're really talking about today. Also, to know the mindset of an acquisitions editor is great. So getting into the book— What is your definition of a ‘hungry author,' and why is mindset so important? Ariel: Yes, so here's our official definition of a hungry author. We say, “A hungry author is a writer who is determined to succeed. They want to and will be published. They take feedback well and don't shy away from the hard work. You will find their butts in the chairs and fingers on the keyboard. They believe in their ideas and know they will impact others. “ So we wanted to write this book, and we called it Hungry Authors because my co-author, Liz Morrow, and I—she is a full time collaborator, she's a ghost writer, and obviously I work in acquisitions. We just saw every single day that authors, even with small to no platform—which is the thing that everyone says you have to have but — Authors with little to no platforms still can, and do all the time, reach the pinnacles of publishing success. Like if you look at the New York Times Bestseller list, you will often find authors that you cannot find on social media. We were like, what is it about those people? How do they break the code or go against the grain of all of this advice that we typically hear that, “Oh, you have to…” Especially for nonfiction, “You've got to have a great platform. You've got to be a celebrity.” There's all of these myths around what you have to be or have to have to make it and to succeed as a traditionally published author. We know from both of our experience that that's not necessarily true. As she and I both started working with more clients who were doing that, who were getting traditional book deals, who were self-publishing their books to great success, we were like, what is it that makes these authors so different? In the reverse and opposite end, why is it that some authors with huge platforms can publish a book and it's a total flop? We've realized it's their mindset. Hungry authors are determined that they're going to make it happen no matter what. It's that gumption and determination and grit that compels them to succeed. Those are the kinds of authors that, especially as an acquisitions editor, I'm like, I want to work with someone like that. If I have confidence, and I can see that they are determined to succeed and to make it work, and they're working as hard as they can to make it happen, then I have more confidence in them. I want to go wherever they're going. So that's what we wanted to encourage authors with, is to have that gumption and to embody that determination. Joanna: Yes, I totally get what you mean. It's interesting, I first self-published in 2007, and in the last almost 16 or 17 years, whatever it is, there have been so many authors who I've seen along the way who have left the industry. It's one of the things I've asked often is— How do you have a long-term career as an author? This comes up over and over again, this grit, resilience, bouncing back, trying again. You're calling it being hungry, I guess, being hungry for it. It's almost like just keeping going. It might not happen with the first book or the second book, or I will often think it might not ever happen. You might not ever hit the New York Times list or whatever. If you're creating the books you want to create in the world, and you're making the impact you want to make, then that's what keeps you going. So I guess this is important for longevity as well. You must see this in the industry. Ariel: Yes, that's right. In fact, in chapter one of our book, we've got five tenets or five components of the hungry author's mindset, and one of them is, “This book is just my first book, or my second book, or my third book, but I will write more books.” That longevity piece of it is really vital. To me, that's almost the most important component of the hungry author's mindset because that component says, “I'm in it for me. I'm in it for the belief that I have in my own writing. It's for the determination and the commitment I feel to serving my readers.” So when you have your “why” aligned in that way, when you really know I'm in it for the journey, and not necessarily the destination, you will be able to keep going and to be resilient. You'll also have more success, ironically. Joanna: Yes, that is ironic. We'll come back to that because we are, in this approach, designing a book, but sometimes that doesn't work either. So let's just first define nonfiction because I feel like it's quite a misunderstood term, almost. There's so many subcategories. Can you talk a bit about what goes under this broad category of nonfiction? Ariel: Yes. So at the broadest level, nonfiction are books that, if it's a story, then it's grounded in reality, and it's based on true events that truly happened and usually can be factually proven. Although sometimes in memoir, there aren't necessarily other sources that can verify the stor

How can you bring laughter into your books regardless of genre? What are the challenges of writing a novel after an award-winning career as a comedy writer for TV and radio? Dave Cohen shares his lessons learned in this interview. In the intro, how to keep a career fresh over multiple books [Author Nation Podcast]; Best practices of successful indie authors [Draft2Digital]; Director James Cameron joins the board of Stability AI [Hollywood Reporter]; Google NotebookLM; Full audio expanding snippet; Photos from Ely Cathedral; Blood Vintage. This episode is sponsored by Publisher Rocket, which will help you get your book in front of more Amazon readers so you can spend less time marketing and more time writing. I use Publisher Rocket for researching book titles, categories, and keywords — for new books and for updating my backlist. Check it out at www.PublisherRocket.com This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Dave Cohen is a multi-award-winning BBC comedy writer who has worked on shows like Horrible Histories, as well as a comedy novelist, podcaster, and author of nonfiction. His latest book is Funny Up Your Fiction: How to Add Light, Shade, and Laughs to Your Novel. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes The shift from writing for TV to self-publishing novels Why comedy is important for writers Writing for individual sense of humour vs. broader appeal Constructing characters that readers will find funny Avoiding cliches in comedy Creating covers for comic novels based on genre crossovers Cancel culture and its affect on writing humour Tips for keeping a positive mindset and creating opportunities You can find Dave at DaveCohen.org.uk. Transcript of Interview with Dave Cohen Joanna: Dave Cohen is a multi-award-winning BBC comedy writer who has worked on shows like Horrible Histories, as well as a comedy novelist, podcaster, and author of nonfiction. His latest book is How to Write a Funny Novel. So welcome to the show, Dave. Dave: Hi. Thanks very much for having me. Pleasure to be here. Joanna: I'm excited to talk to you today. First up— Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into books and self-publishing after focusing more on writing for screen and performance in previous decades. Dave: Well, I'd always wanted to be a novelist, really since I was a teenager, but I got a little bit distracted on the way. I happened to spend 10 years as a stand-up comedian, and that was followed by about 20 years of writing for comedy for TV and radio. It was never quite the right time to start that novel writing career. Then I got to my 59th birthday, this was in 2017, and I finally thought, well, this is the time that I decide I have to write the novel now. I have to do it now and be damned. So I did, and I wrote my first novel. I was very pleased, and I got it all ready to send off to agents. I finished it and it was ready March 2020, at which point COVID happened. Every one of my comedy friends and colleagues, stand-up comedians, writers, all of the people who are far more successful than me, were suddenly out of work. So they had to think, “What am I going to do next? I'll write a book.” So I suddenly thought, ah, right, my book isn't going to get anywhere with an agent, I might as well self-publish. That's the next part of the journey, and that's how I've ended up here now. Joanna: Just go into that bit more then because obviously working a couple of decades with the BBC—which if people don't know, as there's a lot of people in America, it's probably the most traditional of traditional media you could possibly imagine. How did you break out of the opinion of the traditional media around self-publishing? I mean, things have obviously changed since I self-published back in 2007, but how did you get around that? Dave: Well, I mean, first of all, I would say people think of the BBC as this sort of very respectable giant monolith, but actually it's loads and loads of different quirky little places. So it sounds great to say writing for the BBC, but a lot of that was writing for BBC Radio, which was about five people in a broom cupboard. Also children's TV, which is only three people in a smaller cupboard. So the kind of pioneering way of the BBC is it's able to make things despite this sort of reputation as this very fusty corporation, rather than because of it. I think that's very much the kind of spirit that I found fairly straightforwardly, actually. That's one of the things that was fairly easy to come to from being in the world of TV writing, was moving away from the BBC that's just full of people who just do it and do it for love. So from that point of view, it was a fairly straightforward move. I think that the harder move was coming from being somebody who was a professional writer and was used to a process, that often ended up in rejection, but it was still a process anyway. So moving from that to a situation, the jungle, I suppose, of self-publishing, where it's free for all. Joanna: Yes, and there are obviously pros and cons in that. I mean, you mentioned your previous writing, and one of the things you say in the book is that much of it was quite short, lyrics and shorter things. What were the challenges in the craft of writing a full novel after very different creativity in the past? Dave: Well, this probably sounds quite stupid, but it's actually true. The number of words, indeed, is quite a challenge because a single joke can be four words long. There's a great comedian, Tim Vine, a British comedian, and he had a joke which went, “Velcro, what a rip off.” That's a joke he did that's four words long. So the idea is, oh, what do I do? Do I have to write 20,000 four-word jokes? Obviously, the numbers thing is part of the issue. Like a half-hour sitcom is about 4000 words long. To develop a new idea for a sitcom and to write a pilot script for one, it's quite a lot of work. It's almost not quite as much work as developing a novel, a whole novel, but it's months of playing with stuff and thinking of things. So the words was the first thing, but then the next problem was going to the other extreme. It was like, aha! I can write as much as I want now. So you'd end up overwriting. The sky wasn't just blue, it was a pastel blue with the clouds breezing along. You go, oh, I can just do this. Whereas when you're writing a script, you just have to get straight to the point. “Character knocks on door, other character answers, straight into conversation.” So, yes, one of the main things was overcompensating. That did lead me to another true fact, I think of whatever you're writing, in whatever form you're writing in, whether it's screenplays, novels, books, jokes, whatever, you have to keep cutting all the time. Cut, cut, cut. You can always overwrite, and you always need to get to the point. I think just one other thing, the main other thing that I learned was you don't actually have to be funny all the time when you're writing a novel. I think that would just be too much. It'd be like banging the reader over the head with a plastic mallet. Joanna: Yes, exactly. Oh, well, that's interesting. Well, let's come back to the comedy then. Why is comedy so important for writers, anyway? I mean, I write darker books, and some people tell me that they laugh in my books, and I certainly didn't intend it. Or specifically funny books, more like yours. Why is laughter so important? Dave: I mean, because the Bible tells us it is. You know the phrase, “laughter is the best medicine,” do you know where that's from? Joanna: It's got to be from Proverbs or something. Dave: That's correct. Yes, yes. With your background in theology, I thought you might get that. Yes, it's from Proverbs. Laughter is the best medicine, and people love laughter. I grew up always loving comedy, listening to comedy on the radio. Also just the great thing was the whole family, we would all sit around the TV, and there were some great TV shows in Britain in the 1970s. We'd all sit around and watch Dad's Army and Reggie Perrin and Morecambe and Wise. Comedy, it's just lovely. It brings people together, really. Joanna: It's difficult though, isn't it? I mean, you talk there about sitting around together. I think maybe it's partly my family, but my brother is very funny and laughs a lot, and I laugh with him, but when we were kids, I would just be like, I don't even know why he's finding this funny, this is ridiculous. People have different views of what is funny. So how do we write a novel where you don't really have the delivery timing that you would in stand up. In stand up, you're reacting to the crowd, and you can do all that. Or like when I'm speaking professionally, I can see how things are landing. With a novel, or with a short story or whatever, you can't see the audience's reaction. So how are you dealing with this individual sense of humour and broader appeal when you're writing a novel? Dave: Well, the first thing, just before I answer that specific question, I would like to say this book that I've written now, How to Write a Funny Novel, is as much for me to learn by writing that down. The first thing that became very clear to me was I needed to distinguish between what we might call a funny novel. Like, say, Bridget Jones books or PG Wodehouse, those are just funny novels that you sit and you laugh and you read them in a half a day or whatever. Then there are also books that are written in genre, and you add humor to them. So you might think of something like, say, the Richard Osman Murder Mystery books. These are great books, but

How can you be successful at connecting with readers and selling books at live, in-person events? What are some practical tips as well as mindset shifts that can help you make the most of the opportunities? Mark Leslie Lefebvre shares his experience. In the intro, Beventi for author events, Reader survey results [Written Word Media]; “How do I market myself without feeling gross about it?” [Author Stack]; 12 Concepts for Authors to Make $8333/Month; Results of AI training survey [Draft2Digital]; LionsGate partnering with RunWayML; Networking workshop [LSF]; Blood Vintage. This podcast is sponsored by Kobo Writing Life, which helps authors self-publish and reach readers in global markets through the Kobo eco-system. You can also subscribe to the Kobo Writing Life podcast for interviews with successful indie authors. This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Mark Leslie LeFebvre is the author of horror and paranormal fiction, as well as nonfiction books for authors. He's also an editor, professional speaker, and the Director of Business Development at Draft2Digital. His latest book is A Book in Hand: Strategies for Optimizing Print Book Sales via Signings and Other In Person Events. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes What does “going wide” really mean? Benefits of in-person signings and events Always connect. The power of creating personal relationships with readers The different types of in-person events Using props to attract the right readers to your booth How to grow your email list and audience from in-person events The logistics of in-person events — payment systems and inventory Managing your energy when planning for and attending events Staying relaxed about changing technology and using it to your advantage You can find Mark at MarkLeslie.ca. Transcript of Interview with Mark Leslie LeFebvre Joanna: Mark Leslie LeFebvre is the author of horror and paranormal fiction, as well as nonfiction books for authors. He's also an editor, professional speaker, and the Director of Business Development at Draft2Digital. His latest book is A Book in Hand: Strategies for Optimizing Print Book Sales via Signings and Other In Person Events. So welcome back to the show, Mark. Mark: Always great to chat with you, Joanna. Joanna: Oh, yes. Obviously many listeners might know you from author events or listen to your podcast, Stark Reflections. So you were last on the show in September 2021. Mark: Has it been that long? Joanna: Yes, it has been, which is crazy. You've been on the show lots over the years. We co-wrote The Relaxed Author together, and we're going to come back to that later. So it's been almost three years since you've been on the show— Mark and Jo over the years Give us a bit of an update on your writing and publishing journey, as you've had some big milestones lately. Mark: So I've continued to write in my Canadian Werewolf series. Book seven, Only Monsters in the Building, that was released earlier this year, 2024. I've got book eight planned for mid-2025. So that's been fun because in 2021, I think, I had only had two or three books in that series. So I've continued to chug away at that. Only one book a year, just sort of standard speed. I did release a co-authored book with D.F. Hart, Accounting for Authors, which is important because she's an MBA. That was a great co-authoring experience because she's really smart and knows everything about that. I took the role of the author who knows nothing about finances. That is kind of close to the truth, so it was an easy role to fill. Then also, with D.F. Hart and Erin Wright and Susie O'Connell and Bradley Charbonneau— We registered and founded a company, Wide for the Win. It is like a long, slow build for this company. All of us are working collaboratively together, trying to leverage that movement into something that could help more authors in different ways. So that's like this long, slow thing where the company's not really earning money yet, it's breaking even, but we have these plans. I mean, for example, sales of my book Wide for the Win, a portion of the sales goes and funds into the company, which is kind of good. So other things I've been up to is I've written two movie trivia books. This is drawn upon my love of 80s films and nostalgia. So I had The Canadian Mounted, which is a trivia guide to planes, trains and automobiles, because it's a reference to a book that one of the characters is reading in it. That took off beyond my wildest dreams. I thought 15-20 people in the world would buy it, and I wrote it completely as a passion project, and it just keeps shooting. It's been out for a few years now, and every Thanksgiving season through Christmas, it sells like gangbusters. Then I did a trivia book of Die Hard called Yippee Ki-Yay, you know the rest. So that came out. Then this December, I'm working on a book, which is Merry Christmas! which is a line cousin Eddie uses in Christmas Vacation. Again, that's going to be like the 35th anniversary of the release of that movie. So that's been a weird tangent. Of course, I then attended Western Colorado University's Masters of Creative Writing Program taught by our mutual friend Kevin J. Anderson. I got my specialisation in publishing. Why not get a piece of paper to go with the 35 years of experience? Then three days after I got my degree, Liz and I flew from Colorado, where I was on campus, to New York City. We got married there on the 10th anniversary of our first date. That, ironically, was inspired not only by the fact that that's our city, we love New York City so much. We've been there about eight times in a six-year period. It was inspired by a co-authored book in my Canadian Werewolf series called Lover's Moon, which is a romantic comedy tale. There's a scene that takes place in Central Park on the Bow Bridge, the bridge where people tend to propose. After we finished writing that, I turned to Liz, and I said, “You know, we could just elope and go to New York and get married in Central Park.” So we did that, which is fun. Then, of course, I've got A Book in Hand coming out. So that's the Reader's Digest version. Could you imagine if I did the long version? Joanna: Can we also say that you work at Draft2Digital. So you also have a day job! Mark: Yes. Well, I mean, that's only 20 hours a week. Joanna: It's a part time day job, but still. Just coming back on the Wide for the Win, because just for people who might not know, basically the idea is that you're not exclusive to Amazon. It's interesting, when I say wide now, I actually mean Kickstarter and Shopify stores. Like it used to just mean Kobo Writing Life and Apple and Google and stuff like that. Now publishing wide is much, much bigger than just the other e-retailers isn't it? Mark: Yes, and my version of wide has always been that. I've always thought, okay, the other retailers are just the beginning. Direct sales, Kickstarters, Patreon, and all the different things you can do, there are so many other platforms, so many other ways of selling. I really want to help authors understand the ability to extend and expand to audiences outside of the regular places. That's partly what A Book in Hand is trying to get into. I'm focusing very specifically on physical products because I think a lot of indie authors don't. I think you and I both know the value of that physical artifact. Even though it's harder and it takes more work, there can be a long-term benefit. So yes, wide to the other retailers is a small version of wide. My wide means every possible avenue, as a creator and as a storyteller. Joanna: Yes, I really like that. I actually think that the shift is happening. It's great that you've set that company up with the others because I feel like maybe we're in year one or two of that being the movement. I mean the movement in the first 15 years, really since you and I met, before 2010, was very much focused on the Amazon model first. Even though there were other retailers, obviously, you were at Kobo back then when we met. Now I feel like there's a real shift, and people are opening up to that. So I think starting the company now, whatever you're planning to do, really is the right time because people are realizing they need to do all this stuff. Not just for the money, but also for the creative expression, and the experience, and the other possibilities of being out there. Mark: For sure. Again, education and making sure people are getting good information was the key thing that we all cared about. Not just sharing the passion for doing all the things you can do, multiple streams of income and all those things, but also helping steer people in the right direction. There's a lot of misinformation out there, and we wanted to get a little bit better at formulizing trying to help authors. Joanna: Great. Well, we'll look forward to that. So let's get into the book. So it is mainly about in-person signings and in-person events. I wanted to talk to you about this because I resist this completely. I have, like you know, the only signed books I've done are my Kickstarters so far. I really love them, but I go up, I sign all the books, and they get sent out. I have never done a book signing. I don't do fairs or conventions or any of that. If I go speak somewhere, I don't take books with me. So people have to bring their own copy and I'll sign them, which, you know, I've done for people. Basically, I want you to start by convincing me and some of the listeners— Why should we do these types of in-person signings and events? What

Success as an author comes with challenges around managing money, setting boundaries, and living sustainably without burning out. Sacha Black/Ruby Roe talks about her lessons learned after five years as a full-time author entrepreneur. In the intro, Content marketing for authors [BookBub]; Vineyard research [Books and Travel]; AI-generated voice cloning for select US Audible narrators [The Verge]; How AI is changing audiobooks and how it echoes changes in the music industry [Music Tectonics]; Blood Vintage; Comment écrire un roman — Joanna Penn; Today's show is sponsored by Draft2Digital, self-publishing with support, where you can get free formatting, free distribution to multiple stores, and a host of other benefits. Just go to www.draft2digital.com to get started. This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Sacha Black writes spicy sapphic fantasy romance as Ruby Roe, as well as books for authors. She's the host of The Rebel Author Podcast and an international professional speaker. Sacha recently did a solo episode on her lessons learned after 5 years full-time, and we discuss aspects of that in the interview. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Why pivot to a new genre — mindset and money shifts Finding freedom from writing under a pen name Publishing and business model changes required with rapid sales growth Learning to outsource as your author business grows Repurposing content across multiple social media platforms Your books are not your pension. Your pension is your pension — so invest! (Check out my list of money books here.) Avoiding burnout — spending time on hobbies and social activities You can find Sacha at SachaBlack.co.uk or at RubyRoe.co.uk. Transcript of Interview with Sacha Black Joanna: Sacha Black writes spicy sapphic fantasy romance as Ruby Roe, as well as books for authors. She's the host of The Rebel Author Podcast and an international professional speaker. So welcome back to the show, Sacha. Sacha: Thank you for having me. Joanna: I'm excited to talk to you today. Now, you were last on this show—I mean, you have your own show—but you were on the show in August 2022, when you had just celebrated three years full time. We talked about your lessons learned. Now you're at five years and things have changed a lot. Now we are going to break this down into sections, but let's start with the genre stuff, the type of books you now write. Like what you were doing then and what you're doing now, and— Why change your genre and the type of books you write? Sacha: So when I left my day job in 2019, I had found some success sharing all the lessons that I'd learned as a writer and compiling those and putting them into craft books. I was doing okay. I was averaging sort of 40,000 to 50,000 pounds a year across the business, but I'd also reached a plateau. I wasn't really growing and wasn't really earning anymore. With the type of business it was, as a nonfiction author, you have so many different streams that you can actually have too many different streams. So I was getting really, really tired, and also kind of feeling like I was making a job for myself, rather than having left my day job to like, “live the dream.” Especially because I'd left my day job to write fiction, but the fiction that I had written up to that point was young adult fantasy. I think that's like most indie authors that I meet do that, or think they're going to do that at some point, and then we all find the thing we're supposed to be writing. So then I'd kind of gotten tired and felt like I was in this job instead of running a business. Then I stumbled upon a sapphic, so lesbian young adult book, and for the first time, I read and I had emotions. I was like, oh, my goodness me, is this what everybody else feels when they're reading? Then, of course, I dived into binging everything that I could get my hands on, but it was all young adult. I stumbled across a spicy adult lesbian book, and everything changed. I knew that that was what I wanted to do. So that's what I'm writing now, adult fantasy romance, but for lesbians. Or sapphic people, I should say, because that's more inclusive. Joanna: Or people who like reading those books. I think you don't have to identify that way to enjoy reading those books. Sacha: No, absolutely. There are straight characters and all kinds of different characters in the books. I guess that's just the genre catchphrase is, you know, sapphic fantasy romance. Joanna: You said there, so many indies do this. They start writing in one area, and then eventually they kind of find what they really want. Why do you think it takes time to find what you really want to write? Sacha: I think for me, it was dealing with expectations. I'm a bit of a people pleaser. Thank you therapy for knocking that out of me. So I was sort of doing what I thought I should be doing. Doing something polite, reputable, and that's also what I'd read. I mean, as a queer person, queer fiction, up until recently, was really hard to find. There wasn't a lot of it. There certainly wasn't any of it when I was at school or in my formative years. So it just took me that amount of time to actually find it. In terms of why other people do it? I'm not really sure. I think we all have our different journeys. Sometimes it's other people's expectations. “Oh, well, if you're going to write a book, you have to be traditionally published,” or, “Oh, you have to write proper fiction,” or, “Oh, write literary,” or whatever. The more creative we are, the more we sink into that love of art, that love of the word, we free ourselves from those expectations and constraints. That's really what art is, I suppose, and I do feel like writing is art. So, yes, I think it's a shedding of expectations. Especially as indies, we're naughty. Joanna: In terms of those expectations there—I mean, obviously you use the word spicy, so we'll keep that word—and for me, it has been writing darker things, I guess. Maybe it's that those are the things that our parents or people who know us in real life or whatever, are like, “Oh, I didn't know you were like that.” Sacha: 100%. Neither of my parents have read my books, thank god. Joanna: Well, they told you they haven't! Sacha: Yes, they told me they haven't. My mum keeps threatening to read it. I'm like, “Don't though. It's really okay, you don't have to.” I think it's very difficult because you can tell things about an author from their words. People come up to me and go, “Oh, I'm really sorry about ‘blah, blah, blah,'” and I'm like, wait, what, how did you sort of work that out? I think any type of writing does force us to be vulnerable in a way because we cannot help the subconscious things that come out on the page. So people do make judgments, and so there probably is a bit of fear about what people will think. I've just reached the “I don't care anymore” point of life. Joanna: You wait until you're in your 50s! I'm not even there yet, but I keep thinking about it. Okay, so let's talk about your name. So Sacha Black's not your real name, and now you've got Ruby Roe. Why did you decide to go with (another) pen name, Ruby Roe? Sacha: Well, originally, when I decided to write this spicy lesbian stuff, because it was so new, and because I did have a podcast, and I had been a speaker in certain conferences and things, I had enough of a reputation that I didn't really want anybody to know what I was doing. I wanted to do it in secret so that there were no expectations. It's all this people pleasing, you know, doing what I think other people want me to do rather than doing what I want to do. Thank you, therapy. So I had to do it in secret, which meant I needed a different name. It was, funnily enough, my stepdad who suggested I write spicy books. I was like, well, I'll write spicy if I can use your name. So his surname is actually Roe, and I love a bit of alliteration, so that's where Ruby Roe came from. So it was basically I needed to do it in secret with nobody watching over me, so that I could be really free to write whatever I wanted, and it to be the most true story to me. Not necessarily my life, but just free of expectation, free of pressure, free of anybody looking at me. Actually, the funny thing is, is that when I then finished it, it was done, and so it felt like a cutoff point. So actually, I was then like, okay, I don't care what anybody thinks now because I've done it. It's too late, I can't take it back. So it was at that point, when I sent it off to the editor, that I was like, you know what, I don't mind talking about this anymore. Then I felt much freer because I'd done the brave thing of writing it, and then talking about it didn't feel so scary anymore. Joanna: So I think it's been about 18 months, hasn't it? Sacha: Yes. Joanna: So about 18 months since you started. So how has it gone? Tell us about how the Ruby books have gone compared to the Sacha Black books, I guess. How have you driven your incredible success as Ruby Roe? Sacha: Okay, so for anybody who is numbers sensitive, like fair warning, I'm actually going to give you numbers. I think it's really important that we're honest. So, okay, I have to pull the timeline back a little bit more. So in the summer of 2022 I released my last nonfiction book, or my most recent nonfiction book. It was at that point, just coming in towards the end of 2022, that I decided I was going to not just write sapphic fiction, but throw everything at writing sapphic fiction. This meant more or less giving up so

In this solo episode, I talk about my lessons learned from 13 years as a full-time author entrepreneur. You can read/listen to previous updates at TheCreativePenn.com/timeline. Joanna Penn writes non-fiction for authors and is an award-winning, New York Times and USA Today bestselling thriller, dark fantasy, horror, crime, and memoir author as J.F. Penn. She’s also an award-winning podcaster, creative entrepreneur, and international professional speaker. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below. It takes time to pivot your author brand — and your mindset, but my dark horse is (finally) running! Let your dark horse run — an excerpt from Writing the Shadow by Joanna Penn It takes time to change your creative and business processes Having a (tiny) paywall makes all the difference to my happiness and mental health I love making beautiful books, and I love BookVault and Kickstarter for helping me make them and sell them direct My physical health is more important than ever, and I am now giving it more time Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn.  Sign up for my free Author Blueprint at TheCreativePenn.com/blueprint  Buy my books for authors at www.CreativePennBooks.com and my fiction and memoir at www.JFPennBooks.com. Sign up for my new Kickstarter: www.JFPenn.com/bloodvintage  Lessons learned from 13 years as a full-time author entrepreneur Thirteen years ago, in Sept 2011, I left my day job to become a full-time author-entrepreneur. Every year since I have reflected on the journey and what I learn along the way. My challenges change and grow along with the business and you will likely be at a different stage, but I hope you find my lessons learned useful along your own author path. You can read all my lessons learned from previous years on my timeline so far – and remember, just like everyone else, I started out by writing my first book with no audience! But with time and continued effort, everything is possible. (1) It takes time to pivot your author brand — and your mindset, but my dark horse is (finally) running! Back in December 2023, over 8 months ago now, I announced I would be making a slow pivot to focus more on my J.F. Penn books.  Writing the Shadow: Turn Your Inner Darkness Into Words was decades in the making, and felt like my last word on the craft of writing — at least for now! I want to do more with that book as this strange time in history means examining our darker sides is more important than ever, but for now, I need to express my own shadow into my books. I have so many stories and ideas and other types of books that are waiting to emerge from J.F. Penn brand. I have a folder in my Books drive with 22 different projects, some just initial ideas, others with research. These are stand-alones and short stories, and other books in series, and there are non-fiction books there too.  I have another folder in my Things app with nearly a thousand notes and links and things to investigate, snippets and thoughts and quotes that might become part of a story or a book. That's enough to keep me going for years, and I keep adding to these as I learn more and research and travel and think and read.  But as much as I wanted to make the shift into J.F. Penn, I struggled in the first half of the year. I started out by rewriting my Author Blueprint, which was more work than expected, so after announcing that I wasn’t doing any more books as Joanna Penn, I went and did essentially another one!  But then I got into Spear of Destiny, and started to relax a little — but it wasn’t until July when I went to the DO Lectures in West Wales that I noticed things were changing.  In the past, when people asked what I did at events or social things, I would say, ‘I’m Joanna Penn and I’m an author and podcaster, and I have a site helping writers, TheCreativePenn.’ I always talked about the self-help angle first, and I might mention I wrote fiction, but it wasn’t the first thing I talked about.  Perhaps, as I have talked about in Writing the Shadow, my fear of judgment stopped me as people certainly judge fiction writers more harshly.  But at the DO Lectures, I introduced myself as Jo and said ‘I’m an author, I write thrillers and horror, crime and dark fantasy, and some self-help.’ I flipped my script and it felt natural and right to do so. I really started to feel like I was shifting into being J.F. Penn and that is such a relief. My dark horse is (finally) running! If you’re read Writing the Shadow, you will know what I mean by this — but I’m going to include the short chapter here as a reminder. Your dark horse is not the same as mine, but the challenge is the same — Is your dark horse running? How can you let it run?  Let your dark horse run — from Writing the Shadow by Joanna Penn Although much has changed over the last two thousand years, human nature remains the same. Around 370 BC, the Greek philosopher Plato composed The Phaedrus, which includes an allegory of a chariot that has helped me frame the Shadow. Perhaps it will help you, too. Imagine a Roman chariot drawn by two horses — a white horse and a dark horse. I am the Charioteer, and I am in the race of my life. The white horse represents my rational self, the one society sees. My good behaviour, my industry, my hard work, my productivity, my scrubbed-clean, well-mannered good girl self.  She helps others. She’s a peacemaker. She doesn’t like conflict. She says the right things, reads the right books. She needs to be liked. My white horse trots delicately along paved roads, aware of the fences and boundaries, never needing to cross them, remaining within the lines drawn by others. My dark horse is a wild animal, wreathed in smoke and ash and flame.  She gallops across wide open spaces, leaps obstacles, smashes through fences, and avoids the paved and cornered world.  She runs free and will destroy herself, rather than be caged. If both horses run together in the same direction, I can fly along, whooping in delight at the speed and power. But if they become unbalanced, the chariot begins to wobble.  When my dark horse stumbles, my white horse drives us hard along the highway, never stopping for rest.  But if she dominates for too long, my dark horse rears up and runs out of control, driving us towards the cliff edge. My white horse has often been stronger.  I’ve always worked hard, got good grades, behaved well, earned enough money to support myself, paid my taxes early.  But the more I let my white horse dominate, the more my dark one rears up unexpectedly and takes over until she exhausts herself with all the things that nice girls shouldn’t do.  When I became a writer, these two horses drove me once more.  My white horse writes non-fiction, helps others, wants to be useful, and responsibly manages a professional business. I’m grateful to have her! My dark horse writes stories that tap into untamed darkness.  I’ve tried to muzzle her, strap her down, regulate her chaos.  But she rears her head, shakes her mane, stamps her hooves, paws the dirt.  Let me run. (2) It takes time to change your creative and business processes I’ve been into AI since 2016 when AlphaGo beat Lee Sodol at the Chinese game of Go. That set of matches included what was considered the first ‘creative’ move by a machine, and the game subsequently changed and was reinvigorated by the new possibilities.  But there was a lot of upset as well.  Obviously there are parallels to the current upheaval due to generative AI which I’ve talked about a lot on the podcast, and also in my Patreon, so I won’t rehash all that here. You can read an overview of my approach in The AI-Assisted Artisan Author, but essentially it’s that I will use the AI tools to enhance and amplify my creativity, and help me achieve my creative and business goals. Since using the AI tools, I feel like I’m in creative flow more often and I’m happier and laughing more, because I am having so much fun. I am turning my imagination into reality in different ways and I am so excited about the progression of what we can do next.  I got access to ChatGPT in November 2022 and have pretty much been trying all kinds of AI tools since then. Most of my covers have elements of Midjourney and DALLE now, and I work with my book cover designer, Jane at JD Smith Design to make the finished covers.  I made all these images with midjourney and/or dalle and then worked with jane (jd smith design) to make them into the finished covers I use ChatGPT and Claude.ai for writing my sales descriptions, doing my marketing plans, writing marketing copy, and coming up with ideas for images, and for book trailers, as well as creating synopses of books, movie pitch documents, and more. I also use them for brainstorming ideas, and plot points and for enhancing the quality of my work, and for deep character POV since Claude, in particular, is great at writing from the point of view of a character with specific knowledge. As an example, I co-wrote a scene where a character explained how to test grapes for sugar content before harvesting using terminology that kind of character would know. I also use a load of other AI-assisted tools like Descript for my podcast editing, ProWritingAid for editing, Canva for images, and more.  So you’d think I was the poster girl for AI-assisted business, right?  I guess I am way ahead of some people, and yet, I want to do more and I have to catch myself sometimes and think — how can I make this better or more fun with an AI tool, r

What needs to go into a training manual if you are teaching physical skills? How can you focus in on your super fans and create only for them, while still making a living from multiple streams of income? Guy Windsor explains more in this interview. In the intro, Amazon celebrates a decade of Kindle Unlimited and indie authors do really well!; Written Word Media has announced a new partnership with RetireHub, an innovative online community for retirees; Levels of author success [Draft2Digital]; Indie Writers Club; Blood Vintage book trailer and Kickstarter campaign. Plus, Oprah's AI special [Variety]; Women using AI less than men [The Economist]; Amazon is revamping Alexa to use Anthropic’s Claude [The Verge] Today’s show is sponsored by Findaway Voices by Spotify, the platform for independent authors who want to unlock the world’s largest audiobook platforms. Take your audiobook everywhere to earn everywhere with Findaway Voices by Spotify. Go to findawayvoices.com/penn to publish your next audiobook project. This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Guy Windsor is a consulting swordsman, teacher, and author specializing in medieval and renaissance Italian swordsmanship. He runs SwordSchool and is the host of The Sword Guy Podcast. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Creating freedom with multiple streams of income Automating and outsourcing non-creative work Key aspects to consider when creating a training manual The importance of photo quality in print books Why write a book instead of produce an online course? Marketing a very niche genre Tips for building your online author store You can find Guy at Swordschool.shop or Swordschool.com. Transcript of Interview with Guy Windsor Joanna: Guy Windsor is a consulting swordsman, teacher, and author specializing in medieval and renaissance Italian swordsmanship. He runs SwordSchool and is the host of The Sword Guy Podcast. Today, we're talking about his book, From Your Head to Their Hands: How to write, publish, and market training manuals for Historical Martial Artists. So welcome back to the show, Guy. Guy: Thanks, Jo. Lovely to be here. Joanna: Yes, great to talk to you again. Now, you were last on the show back in 2021 when you talked about pivoting your business from in-person to online and scalable, which was much needed in the pandemic. So just give us an update as to how that change has gone for you, how your business looks today, and— What are your multiple streams of income? Guy: Well, I actually made that pivot in around 2015 because I needed to get location independence so I could move my family from Finland to the UK because of elderly parents. That was just super lucky timing because then the pandemic occurred, and we were fine because we were living off books and courses, which did really well during the pandemic. Rather than me living off in-person teaching, which I'd been doing before. So it's blissful, honestly. The difference between if I don't show up to work, I don't get paid, and well, if I feel like taking three months off to go do this creative project or do something with my kids or whatever, I can do that, and it won't make a really big difference in the short term. It's just so freeing, which means, among other things, I can work on pretty much anything I like. Now, you asked about multiple streams of income, and you sent me the question beforehand, so I made a list. So there's books, which are training manuals, mostly. There's also some translations and other things, which are in print, ebook, and some of them are also in audio. Then online courses. Those are the two really big earners. The two of those together is like 90% of my income. The rest of it comes from in-person seminars, which is actually my favorite thing. I travel around all over the place teaching seminars in America and Singapore and New Zealand and wherever. It’s fantastic, but it's really, really demanding. Then I have my own social media site called SwordPeople, which brings in some income. I have a Patreon which brings in a tiny bit of income. I also, back in 2007, the warehouse space next door to the warehouse space we were using as a training space came on the market, so I bought it. So my students there are renting that space off me. So that's another income stream. I also have merch, like t-shirts and whatnot, which hardly sell anything at all. So if anyone wants a really cool t shirt, I can point them in the right direction. So like by platform, my Teachable account is the single biggest chunk of money coming in monthly. Then my wide books as an aggregate, I don't really pay attention to the different platforms there. My Shopify store would be third. Rent on the space would be fourth. Then seminars, teaching in person, SwordPeople, and all the other stuff is sort of the tail end. Joanna: That's great, and let's just point out that you started out by saying it was blissful. When people hear that whole list, they might be thinking, oh my goodness. How big is your team? How many hours do you work? Just talk about how the structure of this works and how automated it is. Guy: I do all the actual creative stuff for myself, and I produce an average of, I suppose, a book a year and an online course a year, something like that. I have an assistant who is fabulous, and she does the tedious admin stuff. She started out by doing the transcriptions for my podcast, and then she kind of took over all of the writing the show notes, naming the episodes, uploading them everywhere, getting them all in the right place at the right time. Then she took on my newsletter as well. So I write it, but she does all the formatting, and making sure all the links are right, and all that sort of thing. So I've outsourced as much as possible of the stuff that involves, shall we say, spreadsheets. I have an allergy to spreadsheets, so if it involves a spreadsheet, I hire a professional. Katie is excellent at spreadsheets. I also have an accountant who does anything related to bookkeeping, and accounting, and all that sort of stuff, because that's just not what I'm good at. I sort of break out in a rash when I see a spreadsheet. So it sounds like a lot of stuff because I've been accumulating it for 20 years. Okay, I didn't produce all this stuff in the last week. My first book came out in 2004. My first online course came out in 2016. I started my podcast in 2020 while everyone was miserable at home and they needed a friendly sword person to come into their ear hole every Friday, just basically to make everyone feel better. So it's sort of grown bit by bit, but I don't actually work that much. I mean, normally I've got maybe three or four hours of creative juice in me in a given day, and then I'm pretty much done. Then I sort of wander off and do some woodwork, or I go for a walk with one of my kids, or whatever. So it's little and often. Joanna: Yes, and I think this is one of the principles of lifestyle design, business design. I think about this sometimes, I mean, maybe you do too, which is, sure, I could build a really big company and make seven figures or whatever, but… Guy: You could, Jo. I don't think I could. Joanna: But as in, I feel like you and I are quite similar in this way, in that we're happy in our work, but— We don't need to scale and work harder or employ more people. Because that's not the lifestyle we're looking for. Guy: I mean, at one point, I had four people working for me in various capacities, and it didn't make my life any better. So with goodwill on both sides, that got now whittled down to just Katie. I would be lost without Katie, so we're quite clear. So, I mean, fortunately, my assistant before Katie spent like four months as—basically what happened with her, it was great. Her name's Kate Tilton. She's an author assistant. We were working together for ages, and she basically outgrew me. She had this utterly charming way of firing me as a client because I just wasn't going to bring in the kind of work she wanted to do. That was fine. She spent several months working with Katie to teach her the specifics of how to publish the books on all the platforms, that kind of thing. So hopefully when Katie eventually outgrows me, as she inevitably will, she'll also train up her successor. Again, without the assistant, I think the first thing to go would be the podcast. I couldn't keep it regular. Joanna: That's really good because something like a podcast, I mean, I have help with this show. That is outsourceable because it's kind of the same every week, the production side of it. Let's get into the training manuals, which we're focusing on today. A lot of people do want to do training manuals. So whether, let's say they might be teaching yoga or knitting or all kinds of physical skills, and of course, you can do videos and all that kind of thing. So talk about training manuals. What are training manuals, and what are the key aspects to consider? Guy: Well, as I see it, a training manual is a book that is intended to communicate a particular skill. It doesn't really matter what that skill is, most skills can be communicated, at least in part, through a book of some kind. You need the regular stuff, kind of the front and back matter. If you're doing anything like martial arts, you have to have safety stuff baked in so that no one can accuse you of promoting dangerous practices. Basically, in terms of the actual content, I'm assuming that anyone trying to write a training manual actually knows their subject already, which isn't necessarily true. I mean, I wrote my se

How can you sell a fiction experience rather than just selling a story? How do our personal obsessions arise in our books, whatever the genre? David Viergutz shares his thoughts in this episode. In the intro, the best marketing investments for authors [Self Publishing Advice]; Abundance mindset for authors [KWL Podcast]; Written Word Media have now announced direct sales links in their email newsletters. Plus, Redefining a profession [Seth Godin]; Achieve more with Gen AI [Masterclass]; My thoughts on the Draft2Digital survey on AI licensing; My book, Artificial Intelligence, Blockchain, and Virtual Worlds; Spear of Destiny out now, and Blood Vintage: A Folk Horror Novel. Today's show is sponsored by ProWritingAid, writing and editing software that goes way beyond just grammar and typo checking. With its detailed reports on how to improve your writing and integration with writing software, ProWritingAid will help you improve your book before you send it to an editor, agent or publisher. Check it out for free or get 15% off the premium edition at www.ProWritingAid.com/joanna This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  David Viergutz is a disabled army and law enforcement veteran and the author of over 20 horror, dark fantasy, and thriller novels. He also hosts The Nightmare Engine Podcast. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes The similarities and differences between dark fantasy and horror Why horror is the genre of hope Religious elements in horror Multiple streams of income and selling wide The mindset shift to selling direct ScareMail — creating a unique fiction experience The behind the scenes work involved in selling a physical product Building your email list through your e-commerce store How to market your store for direct sales You can find David at DavidViergutz.com Transcript of Interview with David Viergutz Joanna: David Viergutz is a disabled army and law enforcement veteran and the author of over 20 horror, dark fantasy, and thriller novels. He also hosts The Nightmare Engine Podcast. So welcome to the show, Dave. David: Thanks for having me. I appreciate it. Joanna: Oh, I'm looking forward to talking to you today. First up— Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and self-publishing. David: Sure, I think my story is probably pretty similar to a lot of authors out there. We just had this dream very young that we were going to write books and stand in front of a crowd in Barnes and Noble, and there'd be all these people flocking to meet us. So we start writing with this dream, and I think a lot of authors, they continue that dream. Then for me, I kind of fell off. So for about 15-20 years, I didn't write anything. I was focused on career and military and that sort of thing. Eventually, I actually got hit with an ad for a popular publishing course, and it kind of opened my eyes. I was like, wait, there's other options. It doesn't have to be the pipe dream of a traditional contract and that sort of thing. So I started exploring it, and I was a personal trainer at the time, I had that business going. Basically, I wrote my first book, and I was hooked. I realized I could write. I could write anytime I wanted. I could learn how to write better, it wasn't a talent. I was told by a teacher a long time ago, like, you have to be born with talent, you can't learn this. I'm like, wow, way to crush my little dreams. Yes, I learned, and I started writing, and I started studying, and I went all in on writing. I sold my fitness business and I joined this community, this self-published community. It's just brilliant, and people are so kind. I tell every author I can meet, every time we talk, I say thank you for being a part of this community, for making it what it is. I came from fitness and its cutthroat over there, and it was not making me happy. Now I get to do things that I love. I get to reach people directly. I get to be creative, and it didn't feel like fitness was very creative. So l wrote my first novel, I think, in probably about a month, month and a half. Second one came out a few months after that. Third one, just a little bit faster than that. That was about four and a half, about five years ago. I've written 23 at this point. I started in dark fantasy, realized it wasn't for me, and went into horror, and have pretty much stayed there. I wrote a couple outside the genre. I wrote some thrillers and crime thrillers. With a law enforcement background, it is a lot of fun. So yes, I'm fully seated in horror now, that's where my heart is, and that's where I love to be. In general, I just love this community. So I'm going hard on it, on horror, and I don't plan on quitting anytime soon. Joanna: That's great. A few things to come back on. So in fact, you and I were talking about this before the recording, about dark fantasy and horror, and the lines are pretty blurred, I think. For example, with vampire novels, some can be horror, some can be dark fantasy. Where do you draw the line between dark fantasy and horror? David: I remember asking this question of myself, because I'm like, man, maybe I need to rebrand. When things weren't going great, maybe I need to rebrand under dark fantasy to see if it might sell a little bit better. So I started kind of examining these lines, and I said, well, in fantasy, the hero can be a hero, and he can solve the problem. Versus in horror, what makes it horrible is that we're just trying to survive, we're just trying to make it. It's about humans having a human response to something that is otherworldly. Versus like dark fantasy, where you can have a hero dealing with something otherworldly, but he handles it in a fantastical matter. He has a chance, right, through magic, or through power, through spells, and through strength. In horror, the hero is just trying to survive. I think that's more related to kind of what we deal with on a daily basis, you know, for our lives right now, or is it more dark fantasy? I'm like, man, it's definitely more in the horror if you kind of take a look at what's going on, and we just have to handle things in a human way. So I just stuck with that. I'm like, if my characters are doing things the way humans do, then I would probably say that that's a horror novel. If there's magic and power and spells like that, I'd kind of lean more towards dark fantasy. Joanna: It definitely blurred. I mean, on your website, you say, “I only write what scares me to create horror that stays with you.” I like that. I mean, that's your definition. I was thinking of what I'm writing at the moment, a folk horror novel, Blood Vintage. Folk horror is quite a specific genre and quite a specific feel. It's got supernatural elements and organic elements, which I'm really fascinated with, but it's very, very different to something that might be, as you say, more human horror. It's got elements of human horror, but obviously, some of these more supernatural angles are different. Many people don't even understand why we love this genre. Why do you think we love horror, and readers of horror love it? David: Yes, and I love asking that question. I think that question is the most fun to answer because people look at us as, you know, as horror writers, and like, what's wrong with you? People are starting to understand that horror can be fun, that thrill. I think it's safe thrills for some people. It could be therapeutic. It's fun to imagine the what ifs, and then be kind of safe from that in the real world. Horror is also a level of escapism. There's escapism in it, just like we would have in any other novel, except for us, it's just kind of scary and thrilling. So, I mean, I think people are still looking for a good story. I think people are still looking for maybe a story they can relate to with their fears. I mean, that's the most basic human desire and basic human feeling is just fear. Fear and love is closely related, but fear is just so raw. We can all experience it, no matter what language we speak, how old we are, we can all experience fear. So there's some connectivity there. I think horror just brings people down to a very basic human level, and says, hey, we can all kind of join in on this and experience it. So horror, for me, it's that human connection. I think that's the same reason people like romance is because there's human connections. It's all about the human connection. It's all about the relationships. So horror can do that for us too. Joanna: Yes, and also perhaps the monsters in the bed—or under the bed, or in the bed—as kids, there were sort of monsters that were hiding. We need those monsters. We need to keep tackling those monsters. Those are the things that come up over and over again in our books. Are there themes that you return to over and over again? David: Yes, I'm a religious person. I don't fail to acknowledge that in my stories. There's always some sort of religious overtone that's very important to me, and so I try to include that. I don't necessarily have it as the forefront of things, but I think it plays a role of just having faith in general. I like to say that horror is actually the genre of hope, and people look at me sideways when I explain that. I say, well, it is, because without this great terror, right, this sense of awfulness that nothing can solve this problem, there can't be great hope. You have to have it. So I think a lot of characters want to hope for things to be all right. So I look for that type of type of theme where it's like, man, what can my characters hope for? What can they return to that wasn't h

How can you move past your limiting beliefs to find success as an author? How can you successfully self-publish in Germany? Andrea Wilk shares her thoughts in this episode. In the intro, how to cope with writer conferences [Ink in Your Veins]; Author Nation schedule; Conde Nast signs a licensing deal with OpenAI [Hollywood Reporter]; Breaking down AI misconceptions [Brave New Bookshelf]; Blood Vintage Kickstarter. This episode is sponsored by Publisher Rocket, which will help you get your book in front of more Amazon readers so you can spend less time marketing and more time writing. I use Publisher Rocket for researching book titles, categories, and keywords — for new books and for updating my backlist. Check it out at www.PublisherRocket.com This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Andrea Wilk (AD Wilk) is the German author of more than 30 books across romance, thriller, and non-fiction. She's also the author of the book in English, 15 Keys to Set your Creative Mind for Success and Happiness. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Germany's book culture Why write a book in English? How to take control of your author career The impact limiting beliefs can have on your writing career — and how to shift them Obstacles faced as an indie author Common money blocks with authors and creatives Tips for generating multiple streams of income and for selling direct via your own Shopify store Using AI models as part of a translation process You can find Andrea at AndreaWilk.com. Transcript of Interview with AD Wilk Joanna: Andrea Wilk is the German author of more than 30 books across romance, thriller, and non-fiction. She's also the author of the book in English, 15 Keys to Set your Creative Mind for Success and Happiness. So welcome to the show, Andrea. Andrea: Thank you so much for letting me be here. I'm so excited. Joanna: I'm excited too. Obviously, we've been connected for years now, and you've shown us things on the Patreon, but for anyone else listening— Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and self-publishing. Andrea: Yes, I'd love to. I'm Andrea Wilk. I'm from Berlin, Germany. I started writing seven years ago. Well, that's not true completely, because I started writing when I learned writing. When I was 14 years old, I did not win a writing competition, and so I gave up that dream of becoming a writer! Then 20 years later, when I was 34, I reconnected to that dream. Since then, I've been writing. A year later, I published my first book, and I got to make a living from it almost immediately. I appreciate it so much, and I feel so grateful for it. I've learned so much from other people, people like you, so I feel like sharing what I learn and my experience is part of my journey, and it belongs to me. This is why I also write books for authors, and I have a YouTube channel in Germany, and I'm going to start one in English as well. Joanna: So you mentioned there that you started writing properly at age 34, and then quite soon you were making a living that way. So some people will be surprised at that. So tell us— How did you start with self-publishing? Did you go traditional in any way? How did you go from nothing to making a living? Andrea: So I've been self-employed for 17 years now, so back then I was already 10 years. I knew from the start that I wouldn't want to go with a publishing house because my freedom means a lot to me, and I'm kind of impatient, so I wanted to have this done as quickly as possible. I took a year to learn a lot about self-publishing, everything I got to know. This book I published back then, it was a romance book, and that story had been on my mind for forever. So it was a special book, and I think that readers connected to it because of that. I did a lot of marketing. I did a lot of everything I could do back then without using a lot of money. So I worked with bloggers, and this was 2018, and self-publishing in Germany really started in 2012, so six years ahead. So people already knew that self-published books could be read, but it wasn't the beginning of that market. So I feel like I've done a lot, and I've learned a lot, and I studied a lot about self-publishing, but of course, there was a little bit of luck in there. Joanna: Tell people a bit about Germany's book culture. Because it's a very traditional book culture, isn't it? So I feel like romance and fantasy and things like that were underserved by the traditional market. Andrea: I wouldn't say so. The German market is quite wide considering books because we love books. Germans love reading. We have a third of the market of the US in books, which is huge. People tend to read a lot of books. Not only one book, but they tend to read a lot, and the bookstores are big. So I wouldn't say that romance was under-served. Joanna: Okay. There was a point where, like in English language, when Kindle first launched, then later on KU, and the earliest people on that store did really well because there was nothing for people to read digitally. So it was kind of a new thing. I think 2018, I think I might have come to Frankfurt Book Fair that year, or I was getting involved in the German scene around then, and there wasn't so much like in the Kindle store as there is now, for example. Andrea: Yes, that's true, because now it's like a lot. It's crazy. Joanna: This is the first point for people, so often, everyone obsesses about the English language market, which I guess is the biggest. In France, for example, in Spain, Italy, other countries, the Netherlands, these countries haven't had so many books for so long. I think Germany is still a few years behind what's happening in the English-speaking market. Andrea: I think what's different for self-publishing compared to the traditional publishing market is that ebooks are way cheaper from self-published authors. In Germany, I don't know how this is in the English market, but traditionally published ebooks are way more expensive than self-published books. This is why so many people buy self-published books because they can just read more by spending less money. Joanna: That's completely true. There are some publishers who've gone with the cheap model, but certainly the big ones, it might be the equivalent of like 13 euros, 15 euros for an ebook. Okay, well, we're going to come back to publishing, but let's get into your book in English. So, I mean, that would be the first question. Why write a book in English? Andrea: Well, I didn't write it in English. I just translated it to English. I feel so connected to the English language. Of course, for German authors, it's a dream to have your book published in English because the German market feels quite small compared to it. So it was a dream. It has been a dream for years. Two years back, a colleague of mine and I, we discovered DeepL. So back then we decided, well, we have to go into the English market, but things happened, and so it took us some time to get here—or me, she's not there yet—but it took me some time to get here. Joanna: Yes. Well, let's get into the book now. You open it with the importance of taking personal responsibility. I really love this because this is also what changed my life back in the day, a book called The Success Principles by Jack Canfield. He also said, “You are 100% responsible for your life,” and you also say this in the book. Many people feel out of control, they don't feel responsible or in control of their life. How can you encourage people to take control of their author career? Of their life, and accept responsibility, even if it's tough? Which it is. Andrea: Yes, it is. I love this, that you are 100% responsible for your life, because the moment you realize that you're responsible for your thoughts, and your feelings, and what you do, for me, this changed everything. I was raised believing that I have to react to whatever happens on the outside. That life pushes me and that I have no control about it, that I have no control on how I feel about things. That I just run on autopilot, even though for the most part of my life, I didn't know that there was an autopilot in myself that was steered by limiting beliefs I had gathered for my whole life. These limiting beliefs, they make us feel out of control, I think. So what I do when I feel overwhelmed with what happens in the outside is I go inside. I have that picture of a tree, it's a mammoth tree, or I think it's a giant sequoia, it's a big tree. I sit in that tree, and the tree stands in a garden. I got that picture during a meditation in a coaching session, and sometimes I feel like I cannot trust myself or trust life, so I put myself into that tree, and I was all alone in there. So nobody's allowed to get in there, it's my safe space. This tree has these huge branches and leaves, and there are fruits. These fruits are what I want to achieve in my life, like the successes I want to have, like money and books, all that stuff. This feels big, but the tree didn't feel stable, and I realized that the roots didn't dig that deep into the earth. So what I learned was that I have to trust, in life and in myself, to get these roots growing, to get them connected to the ground. So that the tree, my tree, my safe space, and everything that comes out of that tree is safe as well. Joanna: I think having a visual metaphor is very useful. I have had people on the show who can't see images in their mind, which I find really interesting, but I think most people can see something or can imagine the words. I think what you're saying is it doe

How can you balance creativity with business when it comes to writing — and filmmaking? How can you access that ‘touch of madness' in everything you create? How can authors pitch their books for film? All this and more with Larry Kasanoff. In the intro, Paid ads with BookBub, Facebook and Amazon [BookBub]; Blood Vintage cover reveal; Unter dem Zoo out now in German; The entire ARKANE Thriller series is back on Audible, as well as Spotify, and you can get 50% off at JFPennBooks.com (65+ hours of thrillers!). This podcast is sponsored by Kobo Writing Life, which helps authors self-publish and reach readers in global markets through the Kobo eco-system. You can also subscribe to the Kobo Writing Life podcast for interviews with successful indie authors. This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Larry Kasanoff is the CEO of Threshold Entertainment and has made over 200 films as a producer or studio head. Some of his credits include Mortal Kombat, True Lies, Terminator 2, Dirty Dancing, and Academy Award-Winning Best Picture, Platoon. He's also worked in the music business with artists like Michael Jackson and The Rolling Stones. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Why are creatives more scared to express themselves now? Tips for starting out in the industry The timeline differences between getting a book published vs. a movie published How to state of play and positivity can help your creativity flow Balancing creative decisions with business decisions Tips for longevity in a creative career How to pitch as an introverted author Generative AI in the movie industry You can find Larry at LarryKasanoff.com and his new book at ATouchOfTheMadness.com Transcript of Interview with Larry Kasanoff Joanna: Larry Kasanoff is the CEO of Threshold Entertainment and has made over 200 films as a producer or studio head. Some of his credits include Mortal Kombat, True Lies, Terminator 2, Dirty Dancing, and Academy Award-Winning Best Picture, Platoon. He's also worked in the music business with artists like Michael Jackson and The Rolling Stones, which is like, wow. He has a new book, which is A Touch of the Madness: How to Be More Innovative in Work and Life . . . by Being a Little Crazy. So welcome to the show, Larry. Larry: Thank you. It's really nice to be here. Joanna: Oh, I'm so excited to talk to you. Let's just start with a really obvious question. You are so successful in film and music videos— Why write a book at this point in your career? Larry: Well, there are two reasons. First of all, we had a year last year where there were strikes. The actor’s union struck and the writers’ union struck, so we couldn't actually work, couldn't make movies. More than that, over the last few years, I've seen in a way I never have before, people, not only in my industry, but in every industry, scared to move on their creative ideas or their entrepreneurial ideas. I've never seen it like that. What if it's wrong? What if it fails? What if I get canceled? What if someone doesn't like it? I was whining to my brother one day about it, and he said, “Why don't you do something about it? Write a book.” My brother's a writer, and so I did. It was really just to inspire people that that creative idea, that that nutso thing that your wife, husband, father, mother, daughter, boss will think it's too nuts, that's the one that you should embrace and go for it. So that was really my only purpose. Joanna: We'll come back to that, but— Why do you think people are more scared now? Is it that the environment is more difficult, or do you think something has changed, like, I don't know, since the pandemic, like the personality of people? Larry: In a way, it doesn't matter why, but I mean, my opinion is the world ebbs and flows. We talk about how conservative political correctness was in the last five years. You know, after the Italian Renaissance, a few years later they covered up the Botticelli's because it was a whole movement that they were too racy. So this is just part of human nature, it just goes. I think this one is a little bit worse because social media and technology and communications means anything that happens gets broadcast immediately all over the world. So I think it's the political correctness that has instilled fear of speaking out in people. Joanna: I mean, that is a challenge, and we'll come back to some of these challenges. First of all, just the challenge for you in writing a book. You have written a lot of different mediums, screenplays and visual and audio things. What were the challenges you faced in writing the book? Larry: It was really fun because the book is really all stories that happened to me, which I used to illustrate my points on why you should embrace the madness and how to do it. So honestly, once I decided to write it—these are stories I tell my assistants, and I torture everyone with—it only took me 10 days to write the whole book. So it was actually very lovely. It was fun. I mean, I was just remembering things, and every now and then I would call on my brother and say, “Can I tell this story?” He goes, “No! That's too much!” you know, if I was offensive. It was really a fun process. Then when I was finished with the book, I called a friend and said, “I need a book agent. I know agent agents, but I don't know book agents.” So he introduced me to a guy named Greg Reed. Greg introduced me to an agent named Bill Gladstone. I mean, I had one call with Greg. I had one call with Bill, and we hit it off. Bill said, “I love it. Send me the book today.” That was a Monday, and on Tuesday he said, “I want to rep you.” So we got on the phone with our publisher. He read the book by Wednesday, and by Friday, I had a signed deal. So the whole thing was really very lovely and fun and quick and easy, the writing of the book. Joanna: I love this. I just want to point out to everyone listening, many people would be like, oh, that's all right for him. I'm looking at your career, and a lot of people listening are just starting out. The reason this was easy for you to get a book deal and an agent—and you know, we'll come back to the writing—but you have worked for decades to get to a point in your life where people want to work with you, right? Do you have any thoughts for people who are just starting out, in whatever industry? Larry: Well, you know, first of all, everyone says that to me, “Oh, it must be so easy now.” Imagine you're a professional boxer, and you've done well, and you've won 30 matches. You think in your 31st, the guy in the ring is going to go easy on you because you won some? That doesn't happen at all. So I would love to think that, gee, when I call everyone wants to work with me, everyone says yes, no one doesn't call me back. It's just not true. I still have to sometimes slug my way through it, and it still doesn't go. So that skill of persevering, and one of the things I say in the book is that one of the absolute tenets is ask, ask, ask, ask. It never goes away, and you always have to do it. There are directors you can find who are in their 70s or 80s even, who still have to go pitch their movie. So to the people starting out, I would say learn this skill because it's like exercise. It's going to stay with you your whole life. You can't just one day say, “You know what? I've exercised for 10 years, I'm 30 years old, I'm going to stop.” You can't really do that, and same with this. It just always goes. So I think the reason people wanted to publish the book is because I found two guys, my agent and my publisher, who also have a touch of the madness. What I did have was a bunch of stories, and the stories are fun, and the stories are relatable, and the stories are fortunate that they are on movies that people have now heard of. So I did have that body of work to draw on. I didn't get any breaks because I've been around for a while. Gee, I wish. I would take it in a second, but it doesn't really happen. Joanna: Yes, well, let's come back on the, “It was so fun. I wrote it in 10 days.” I've read the book. It's great, and as you say, you're telling stories. So the style itself lends to a more storytelling way of doing it. It's not like a business non-fiction, where it's research and chaptered. It's lots of stories, which is great. When I was reading it, it is very your voice as well. Not that I know you, but it reads like your voice. So did you dictate that? Did you type it? Tell people, how did you actually get that down? Then did you edit it into an order? What was your writing process? Larry: Oh, so I first wrote just an outline, like a chapter outline. Then I thought, how do I really do this? I never thought of how I'd really do it. My brother said to me, you have to use some sort of a framework. So I came up with what I call “create, ask, play.” There are three things you have to do. You have to create your idea on how to do that, you have to ask, ask, ask, and you should always do it with a playful mindset if you can. Once I did that, the way I always write when I write scripts is I just write. I don't think about it. I write quickly. I don't edit myself. I try to get everything down. I write on a laptop. Then I leave it, and I come back later on, and I read it. Sometimes I'm shocked, like, hey, that's pretty good, or it isn't. Then I go through it again, like painting a barn door. Then you just keep doing coats. Then sometimes you think, well, this story doesn't work, or I need more stories here, so I kind of have to go think over something.

How are publishers using AI and what are the potential use cases in the future? Why is this an exciting time in publishing for those who use the new tools to expand their creative possibilities? Thad McIlroy and I have a wonderful discussion about the current state of AI in publishing, and where we think it might be going next. In the intro, Audible tests AI-powered search [TechCrunch]; How to avoid book marketing overwhelm [Author Media]; Top 17 self-publishing companies [Nerdy Novelist]; How I professionally self-publish; 30% off ebooks & audio at CreativePennBooks.com, use discount code AUGUST24. Today's show is sponsored by Draft2Digital, self-publishing with support, where you can get free formatting, free distribution to multiple stores, and a host of other benefits. Just go to www.draft2digital.com to get started. This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Thad McIlroy is a nonfiction author and contributing editor, writing at the intersection of AI and book publishing, as well as a publishing consultant. His latest book is The AI Revolution in Book Publishing: A Concise Guide to Navigating Artificial Intelligence for Writers and Publishers. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Why is generative AI so controversial in publishing? Ways in which traditional publishers are using AI tools How platforms are monitoring and placing guidelines on AI work — and why Ingram blocked his book The future of licensing — and synthetic data The increasing importance of high-quality print books Generative AI search and book discoverability Why Thad thinks this is the most exciting time in his 50 year career in publishing You can find Thad at thefutureofpublishing.com and his new book at Leanpub.com Transcript of Interview with Thad McIlroy Joanna: Thad McIlroy is a nonfiction author and contributing editor, writing at the intersection of AI and book publishing, as well as a publishing consultant. His latest book is The AI Revolution in Book Publishing: A Concise Guide to Navigating Artificial Intelligence for Writers and Publishers. So welcome back to the show, Thad. Thad: Thank you very much, Joanna. It's good to be back. I was thinking, did we start talking first maybe 10 years ago, that we've been staying in touch? Joanna: Yes, I think so. You've been on the show several times, and I always read your site, The Future of Publishing. It's so good that we're on the same page now, I think, with AI. Thad: We are, indeed. Joanna: So let's get into it. I mean, in this industry, we've all been using aspects of AI in publishing for years. Like the Amazon algorithms, for example, or Google search. Why is the use of generative AI, in particular, so emotional and controversial in the publishing industry, when other businesses are adopting it with enthusiasm? I know my husband's company is doing it, and there's lots of companies rolling things out, but in publishing, it seems like a no-no. Thad: It really does, and it's such a fraught topic. It is such an awkward time to be talking to folks about technology when it's just explosive in many ways and suddenly an untouchable. I think there's more than one aspect to it, right? There's, on the one hand, this feeling of having been violated. There's so much press about AI companies having hoovered up, as is often said, the content. People have this sense — Authors have this sense, that every book of theirs has already been ingested into an AI system, which is thoroughly inaccurate. If you're not following the story closely, and you hear stories of hundreds of thousands of books, you don't have any sense as an author of the fact that it was actually a relatively small number of books that got into some of these large language models. Regardless, the sense is that everything got hoovered up. Then I think there's a secondary sense that I get from some of my author friends where they say, “Well, if my books are already in there, then the AI can recreate books like mine, and that will push me out of business,” that kind of sense. That's a hard one to explain exactly why that's not likely to be true in any reasonable way. Then I get a sense from people, too, there's a lot of mystique around AI. Giving it a name like artificial intelligence, and all this science fiction, and so on. So there's that kind of technological apprehension, which again, you can understand that. Then that leads to this sort of sense that these machines are going to try and take over creativity, which again, is a real sense of violation. So all those things are churning around at the same time. Joanna: It's so interesting, isn't it? Like that last one, ‘will machines take over creativity?' Or people who leave comments on people like me and other people or use AI saying, “Oh, you should write your own books,” when I've got like 15 years of doing this. It's that somehow it's taking something away. Whereas I was working with Claude.ai earlier today — I feel so much more creative when I work with Claude and Chat. Is that the sense you get? I guess where I'm going with this is, so much of the criticism is from people who haven't even tried these models in a proper way, like without a terrible prompt. Thad: Yes. Yes, exactly. I see people, they'll try ChatGPT, usually that one first, sometimes Claude, whatever. Let's say ChatGPT, they try it, they do a couple of prompts, and the first one you do, you're just kind of amazed. “Wow, it sort of talks to me.” Then you do the second one and the third one and think, well, it's not really answering the way I thought it would. It's not very clever with what it's saying. Then they'll abandon it. I've talked to so many people who've abandoned it so quickly. Ethan Mollick, that guy who wrote Co-Intelligence, which I consider the best kind of starter guide to AI, all round starter guide, he says — You need 10 hours. That's his rough rule of the law of how to expose yourself to the technology before you can abandon it. You know, after 10 hours, you can say, no, to hell with this, it's not for me. By that point, you've exposed yourself, you've worked with it. You know what it can do, and then you can make an informed choice. Joanna: Yes, I think that's right. To me, the sense of curiosity and play is so important. It's iterative. I've been using the tools now, and I know you have too, for several years now, these generative ones. I've been using Midjourney. I've just been playing with version 6.1 which is just being released on Midjourney. Obviously, Claude 3.5 Sonnet is the latest there. Just as we speak today, there's some beta things from ChatGPT around a massive output. So this is moving really fast. I know different indie authors using generative AI for different things already. But in your book, you do outline ways that traditional publishers are looking at using generative AI tools. In what ways are publishers using these [generative AI] tools? Thad: In the book, I go at it from two angles. One, I have a short chapter where I quote from the Big Five because a lot of people in publishing look to them—not necessarily for guidance, it's not like they're going to inform us on the smart way to do these things—but what does HarperCollins say? What does Penguin Random House say? So I got a little section on that. Each of them are sort of tentatively feeling their way through it. Hachette makes a really interesting distinction, where they say that there are two kinds of ways to use AI, operationally or creatively. We being a creative house, we banished the use of AI for creativity within Hachette, but we'll use it operationally. You think, well, good luck with that differentiation. So then there's a whole series of use cases, which I think many of your listeners would be familiar with because publishers are using it in some of the same ways that independent authors are using it. Whether it be editorially for kind of developmental tasks, or in marketing. Of course, there's lots of interesting use cases for marketing. I think both authors and publishers are doing some nifty things there. A little bit around production, that seems to be sort of easing in so far. I see it on every side. For a while, it was like, well, it doesn't do much here, but it does more stuff there. Now it seems that it touches everything. Joanna: Yes, you mentioned the difference between operational and creative. To me, things like marketing have to be creative. They might mean the writing of the book, but sometimes I feel like they're saying these things just to not get authors annoyed. Thad: Exactly. Clearly, that's what it is. Joanna: Yes, because I guess on audiobooks, you have a little bit on audiobooks in there, and I can't remember which publisher it is that's now using ElevenLabs for some audio. Thad: I think Simon & Schuster made a little announcement around that, or maybe it was HarperCollins, who knows which one of the Big Five. [It was HarperCollins.] Yes, one of them did announce that, and I'm working with ElevenLabs on my audio. Joanna: Oh, are you for this book? Thad: Yes. Joanna: That's interesting because, yes, I started using them. The biggest problem right now with the ElevenLabs file is even though they probably are the best of breed service for AI audio—I mean, there's Google, but they don't have enough voices, whereas ElevenLabs has so many—but Spotify won't accept their files right now, as we record this at the end of July 2024. Of course, ACX won't either, because they still only take human files. So this is my pick— My pick is that either Spotify is g

How can you write freely and release any blocks that are holding you back? How can you focus on the strengths in your writing and avoid critical voice? Robin Finn gives plenty of writing tips in this interview. In the intro, KDP's identity verification; Why authors need platforms [Kathleen Schmidt]; Romance genre report from K-lytics; Canva has bought Leonardo AI image generator. Plus, join me and Orna Ross for a writing retreat near Dublin, Ireland 11-13 April 2025 [More details here; Kickstarter Rewards] Today’s show is sponsored by Findaway Voices by Spotify, the platform for independent authors who want to unlock the world’s largest audiobook platforms. Take your audiobook everywhere to earn everywhere with Findaway Voices by Spotify. Go to findawayvoices.com/penn to publish your next audiobook project. This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Robin Finn is an award-winning writer, teacher, and coach, and the author of Heart. Soul. Pen.: Find Your Voice on the Page and In Your Life. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Overcoming the fear of judgement and shame when writing Uncovering the different layers of limiting beliefs Valuing our writing across all genres and topics Strengths-based feedback and how to use it Using the TIDES principle in the critique process Tapping into your curiosity to find your author voice The magic that can come from timed writing Practicing the art of discernment in your writing and sharing Benefits of an in-person writing community You can find Robin at RobinFinn.com and on Instagram @RobinFinnAuthor. Transcript of Interview with Robin Finn Joanna: Robin Finn is an award-winning writer, teacher, and coach, and the author of Heart. Soul. Pen.: Find Your Voice on the Page and In Your Life. So welcome to the show, Robin. Robin: Thank you so much for having me. Joanna: I'm excited to talk to you today. So first up— Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and publishing. Robin: Well, my story is a little meandering. I really was a writer when I was a child, but I sort of tucked that away for decades. Then years later, after I became a mom, I had a child with severe hyperactivity. It made parenting so difficult and excruciating, particularly the judgment that I got from all the other parents, that I ultimately ended up writing as a means of healing. I wrote, originally, a lot of personal essays about parenting a child with special needs. That was really the beginning of my writing career. During the time when I was really actively parenting and really struggling, I ended up going back to school and getting a master's degree in spiritual psychology. Spiritual psychology is a program where you really connect to what is your purpose. One of the things that came out of that program for me is that I'm a writer. So I started to write about parenting a child with special needs. I was really scared. I had a lot of shame and a lot of judgment about what I was writing. I went to a conference, and I met some writers, and I decided I'm going to send out one of my essays. To my shock, it was accepted. Then when I saw it online, I was so shocked and scared, but what happened from that point was I was flooded with emails from other parents, really, Jo, from all over the world. From Australia and Japan, thanking me for writing this piece and telling me they were having a similar experience. That connecting with others and realizing how healing writing can be, not just for myself, but for other people, really spurred me on to publish my work. Then from there, it was really, again, like I was reached out to by so many women asking me about writing and about how they also were having experiences they wanted to write about. So I sort of blended my background in public health, spiritual psychology and writing, and I created this program called “Heart. Soul. Pen.” for women writers to find their voice. I taught this program for many years, and then ultimately, it became the book. Joanna: That's so lovely for you to share those feelings. It really strikes me. We've only been on the phone like three minutes, and you've used the words judgment, shame, scared, shocked. These are all really emotional words to use about writing. I know there's people listening, I've certainly felt it myself, I wrote a book last year—well, it was written over a long time, I published it last year—called Writing the Shadow, which is based on the Jungian idea of Shadow. I cut some things out of that book because of some of those things you're talking about. So if people listening feel the same thing, they feel that fear of judgment, they feel that shame— How did you get past those things in order to share that first essay? Like that first step before you got the feedback, how did you do that? Robin: Well, it's a really good question because when I was writing the book, Heart. Soul. Pen., I had been teaching “Heart. Soul. Pen.” for years, but I literally didn't know what it was I was teaching. It's such an intuitive process that I had to be like, okay, wait, how can I make into a system what I'm doing? It's interesting you bring this up, because the first step of the book is called “Revise and Release Limiting Beliefs.” That's step one. I literally take you through how I did that with parenting and how it really applied to writing. This idea of writing down what I believed about myself as a mother. That was the despair that brought me to spiritual psychology school was this idea that I was a failure as a mother because I couldn't fix my son and I couldn't fix my family and make them into this perfect fantasy family. I had to go through this entire process of writing down what my beliefs were about myself, and then really asking myself, do I even believe my beliefs? Also asking myself, do these beliefs support me having a joyful, peaceful parenting life? And they really did not. Then being willing to rewrite the beliefs and then repeat them every day until eventually over time, they became my new belief system. When I started writing, I literally went back to that very same process, and I outlined it in the book. It is a step-by-step process of being willing to start with examining what do you believe about writing, and about worthiness, and about your own voice, and being willing to write it down and look at it. I can tell you that a lot of things I believed about my own writing and my own voice were just dumb, just silly. I didn't even believe my own beliefs, but they were there inside of me. Then being willing to review them and ask myself, if I believe I don't have anything important to say, for example, does that support my goal of writing? Not really. Am I willing to let that go and replace it with a different belief? For example, what I have to say is helpful to myself and to others. Writing is a part of who I am. My message is important. Replacing it with beliefs that support my goals, and then being willing to look at these new beliefs every day, maybe multiple times a day, until they really become my new belief system. I think for all writers and creatives to be willing to do that step before pen ever goes to paper is so powerful and life changing. I truly believe that. Joanna: It's interesting. It's a very difficult thing to do, though. You open the book with something that resonated with me, you said, and this is a quote from the book, “The messages we receive as kids get lodged inside of us and become lifelong limiting beliefs that impact how we live, work, write, create, show up in our lives and relate to others and ourselves.” It's so interesting because I actually put my experience of school in that book Writing the Shadow, where a teacher basically told me that I couldn't write that kind of thing. That it was too dark, that it was like a nightmare. I shouldn't write that, I should write something nice. “Write something nice” has sort of become something I resist now. I write dark fiction, for example. It's so interesting, it took me many, many decades to uncover that. So I guess I'm asking—Are these limiting beliefs layers? So we uncover something that might be obvious, but it takes a while to get down to the lower limiting beliefs. Robin: Yes. I really love what you're sharing. I can't tell you how many students come to my classes, how many writers with stories like that. I talk about this in the book, how women often feel like, “My writing has to be pretty, my writing has to be good, my writing has to be sunshine and roses,” like what you're saying. These are not true. These are the types of beliefs that gets stuck inside, and it's very difficult to write when we hold these beliefs. It's not impossible, but I call it “writing through mud.” You can do it, but it's so arduous. Isn't it more fun to write with flow, to just have the words fall out? Well, if we want to have that kind of flow, we have to be willing to excavate at least a little bit of these limiting beliefs. To your point, they are very layered, but we've got to start somewhere. In the book, I don't dive into the deepest layers, but I start with how can we look at just the top layer of what we believe about our voice, and our writing, and our worthiness, and start to loosen that up a little bit and create beliefs that really support us in our writing journey? That's nine tenths of getting rid of the barriers to writing is to let go of these beliefs that what you have to say is too dark, isn't important, is wrong in some way, is shameful. None of that is true. Joanna: Another th

When is it time to leave an unsuccessful series behind and pivot into something new? What is the process of writing to market? Anna Sayburn Lane explores these topics and more. In the intro, help with Amazon KDP Account suspension [Kindlepreneur]; Selling direct to the EU? Thresholds coming in 2025; Some honest thoughts about the Harrogate Crime Writing Festival [Charlotte Duckworth]; OpenAI's SearchGPT; and Signing Spearof Destiny pics. Today's show is sponsored by ProWritingAid, writing and editing software that goes way beyond just grammar and typo checking. With its detailed reports on how to improve your writing and integration with writing software, ProWritingAid will help you improve your book before you send it to an editor, agent or publisher. Check it out for free or get 15% off the premium edition at www.ProWritingAid.com/joanna This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Anna Sayburn Lane writes 1920s murder mysteries and contemporary thrillers, and is an award-winning short story writer. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Lessons learned from self-publishing your first book The mindset shift when deciding to pivot When the cost of production outweighs the profits — is it time to pivot? Assessing the financial potential of a genre How writing to market makes marketing easier Researching and changing your branding when pivoting genre Balancing research time with writing time Historical accuracy vs. believability You can find Anna at AnnaSayburnLane.com. Transcript of Interview with Anna Sayburn Lane Joanna: Anna Sayburn Lane writes 1920s murder mysteries and contemporary thrillers and is an award-winning short story writer. So welcome to the show, Anna. Anna: Hello, thank you very much for having me. Joanna: Oh, it's great to have you on the show. So first up— Tell us a bit more about you and how you originally got into writing and self-publishing. Anna: I was the typical bookworm kid, which led me into an English and History degree. I didn't really think at the time that writing stories for a living was an option. So I kind of went into journalism thinking, oh, that's close. Turns out, it's a completely different thing, but anyway, it kind of worked. So I worked for local newspapers for five years. Then I moved into the health and medical field. I enjoyed work, I was quite happy doing what I was doing. I'd always written a bit of fiction on the side, but I only really started taking it seriously about 15 years ago. I just got bitten with the idea for a novel, and it wouldn't let me go. So I spent about eight years writing my first novel, and then another two years trying to get it published. I went through all of the ups and downs, and near misses, and getting more and more frustrated with the process. So eventually, I decided I'm going to find out about self-publishing. I went to London Book Fair, I joined ALLi (Alliance of Independent Authors), I did various online courses, and I found out as much about it as I possibly could. Then I eventually went on to publish Unlawful Things, which is the first novel, and that was back in 2018. Joanna: That's interesting. That's quite a long journey then. Didn't that book win some awards or something? I mean, it's a very well-respected kind of book. How did that experience go with traditional publishing? Anna: Well, that was the thing. It kept getting shortlisted for stuff, it kept nearly winning things. Then I'd sort of get agents who were saying, “Oh, yes, we really love it,” and then they'd have a closer look and say, “The trouble is, we're not sure that it's commercial enough. Blah, blah, blah.” So that was really the reason that I eventually went into self-publishing. I forget the exact ones now, but there were a couple of awards that it got onto the final roster for. When I published it, it did pretty well. It got really well reviewed, people seemed to really like it. So I thought, oh, great, you know, better write the next one. Unfortunately, the next one to two years to write, and that was when I suppose things started slowing down a bit, really. Well, let's just stay a few years back because you and I first met as I arrived in Canterbury at the end of my pilgrimage in 2020. So we were literally just days before lockdown, I think, that time. Joanna: Then you came on my Books and Travel Podcast in 2021, and we geeked out over Canterbury history. That was while you were still writing the Helen Oddfellow Mysteries. So first, tell us more about those books. Why did you start out writing that series, in particular, Was it based on your history degree? Anna: Well, actually, the Helen Oddfellow series really started when I walked from London to Canterbury back in 2010, which I just sort of did for fun. It gave me an idea for a story, which I like the idea of a story that started in London and led you all the way to Canterbury. Taking in literary figures like Chaucer and Christopher Marlowe, who's the playwright to was born in Canterbury, but actually died in Deptford, was murdered in Deptford. I liked the idea that it would touch on historical mysteries, like the murder in the cathedral and Archbishop Becket's murder. Then again, the mystery of what happened to Becket's body after Henry the Eighth had the shrine destroyed. So I had all of these kinds of mad ideas going around in my head. Then I came up with the idea of a literary detective looking into mysteries from the past. So my heroine, Helen Oddfellow, was a PhD literary researcher, but she was also a London tour guide. That was because I actually have a friend who works as a London tour guide. It's just fantastic going anywhere with her in London because she's always pointing out things that you'd never notice normally. She just knows everything about London history. So I thought that would make a really good sleuth, someone who notices things like that and who has such a good background in history. So this series then, the first book was very much about Marlowe. I then went on to write about William Blake and then about Charles Dickens. So all writers who had really strong London and Kent links, because I live in London and Kent and that's kind of the area that I know best. So I really enjoyed the writing and the research, and I did absolutely stacks of research for each book. They were incredibly research heavy. I mean, for example, with the Charles Dickens book, it sort of started with, hmm, I should probably read all of Dickens. Joanna: Wow, okay. That is interesting. Anna: So perhaps not surprisingly, they took quite a long time to write. The first book did okay, the second did okay too, the third and the fourth didn't really take off. So I was very proud of the books. The people who read them did like them. I thought they were good books, but they kind of weren't working commercially. Joanna: Yes, and this is really interesting because you mentioned the agent who said it wasn't commercial enough. You've got a character there who's a PhD literary researcher and tour guide. How much does that series cross over into literary fiction versus mystery genre fiction? Anna: I think part of the problem was I didn't really know where it should sit at all. I remember after writing the first one, showing it to someone, and she said, “Oh, so it's a crime?”  I said, “Oh, is it?” I hadn't even thought to that point what sort of book I was writing. I had to explain it. It takes quite a long time to explain to someone that, well, it's a contemporary thriller, but it's got lots of historical stuff, and quite a lot of heavy literary history. It just became really hard to market because it was quite a complicated thing. I think when I described them as sort of literary thrillers, people thought they're just going to be really heavy. Maybe they were quite heavy, but certainly, I think that for some people that was actually quite off putting that they sounded like they were going to be hard work. I think probably they did ask quite a lot of the reader. I do remember reading one of the reviews where someone was saying, “Look, I'm sure this is a really good book, but there's so much history in it.” I was like, yes, you're right. There is a lot of history in it. Joanna: It's so funny, though, because I was thinking about this because, of course, you and I both love our research. It can be spice or seasoning instead of info dumps, and I think both of us are pretty good at that, to be honest. It's so interesting because I was thinking, look, my books are for people who love to also read the Author's Note and love to say, “Oh, my goodness, that's actually real. Oh, wow, I didn't know about this.” I get emails from people who say, “Oh, I had to go and google that stuff you were writing about,” or, “I had to go and visit this other website that you put an author's note,” and stuff. So I do feel like there is an audience for those kinds of books. I mean, Desecration, my first also kind of literary detective book, it's similar. So staying with that series, so you mentioned that you didn't know what genre it was, which is a classic first novel issue that many writers have. In fact, first book issue in general. What else did you learn from self-publishing and writing those initial books? Anna: I think one of the problems was how long it was taking me to write each book. So I realized that people will actually forget if you don't publish a book for two years, especially if that's the gap between your first and second book. People will just forget about you, even if they really liked the

Why is writing emotion so important in our books, whatever the genre? How can we create an emotional connection between our readers and our characters? Roz Morris gives her tips in this episode. In the intro, how to get your indie book into schools [Self-Publishing Advice]; Did my bestselling book turn out to be a financial failure? [Tiago Forte]; How to Build a World Class Substack; Why did The Atlantic sign a licensing deal with OpenAI? [The Verge]; Like It or Not, Publishers Are Licensing Books for AI Training—And Using AI Themselves [Jane Friedman]; and my personal update post-Covid. Write and format stunning books with Atticus. Create professional print books and eBooks easily with the all-in-one book writing software. Try it out at Atticus.io This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Roz Morris is an award-nominated literary fiction author, memoirist, and previously a bestselling ghostwriter. She writes writing craft books for authors under the Nail Your Novel brand, and is also an editor, speaker, and writing coach. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Why is writing emotion is so important? How can we create an emotional connection between our readers and our characters? How to write layers of emotion Using description and dialogue to evoke feelings in the reader “Show, don't tell” when writing emotion Learning to lean into our intuition and trust more Using your own emotions and experiences in writing How and when to use a beat sheet You can find Roz at RozMorris.org. Transcript of Interview with Roz Morris Joanna: Roz Morris is an award-nominated literary fiction author, memoirist, and previously a bestselling ghostwriter. She writes writing craft books for authors under the Nail Your Novel brand, and is also an editor, speaker, and writing coach. So welcome back to the show, Roz. Roz: Hi, Jo. It's so great to be here again. Joanna: Yes, and you have been on the show many times before over the last 14 years. Roz: I feel like we're old timers, gosh. Joanna: Oh, we are so old timers, but that's because you're so good at this, I wanted you back. The last time was in January 2023, when we talked about how to finally finish your book, which was a super popular episode. Though, given your many creative projects, what have you been working on in the last 18 months? Give us an idea of where you are in the creative cycle. Roz: Well, just after that, I did an audiobook of my third novel. Then I was playing with ideas for another novel, and they sort of settled a bit, but I couldn't figure out really what I wanted to do. Then another novel idea came along, and that's starting to incubate. Meanwhile, just as a kind of amuse-bouche, I've been writing a follow-up to my travel memoir, which is Not Quite Lost: Travels Without A Sense of Direction. So I've rather got the taste for writing little memoirs of un-adventures. I just really like them as a way of storytelling. Joanna: Oh, that's funny. Un-adventures, I do love that. The audiobook, did you narrate that? Roz: No, I didn't. I managed to get back my narrator who did my first two novels because she just had such a good take and understanding of the material. She really wanted to do a third one if there was a possibility, so that worked really well. Joanna: What about the travel memoir? Have you done that as an audiobook yourself? Roz: I haven't, but if there is an audiobook that, I want to do it. Joanna: Yes, you must. You've got such a lovely voice. I do think memoir is one of those things, and your Nail Your Novel books as well. I think that these are some things, the nonfiction side, that we can do as authors more easily, I think. Roz: I think so. Also, people get used to hearing the real us on podcasts like this, on videos that we appear on, when we speak in real life, and that sort of thing. So our genuine voice is really important there. Joanna: Absolutely. Well, people should look forward to that at some point. Anyway, into our topic for today, we're going to focus on writing emotion into our books, both for fiction and also for other genres like memoir and narrative nonfiction. So just to set the scene— Why is writing emotion so important? Roz: Well, readers love to feel. They absolutely wants to care about what happens. They love to be involved in what happens. Reading is a really intimate thing to do if you think about it. It's just you and the author's words, and yet it sort of goes into you and creates pictures and emotions. So being in control of the emotion you are writing is a really important writing skill. The emotion you write is closely linked to the genre. You have to know as a writer what emotion the reader of your genre is seeking. Are they seeking thrills, or shivers, or a bit of romance? Do they want to be scared? What kind of scariness? Do they want a cozy level of scary? Or do they want something really dark that is something that speaks to them deeply? All that comes from writing emotion. Understanding what emotion the reader is looking for is the key to understanding your genre. Joanna: It is fascinating. I was thinking about this because in my book Desecration, I wrote an emotion that I have never experienced, and some people did experience that themselves. I was crying when I was writing it, and people did write to me that it was emotional for them. So I guess for me, I felt that was something I wanted to write about, but that I haven't necessarily experienced, even though I kind of did as I was writing it. Can we write about things we haven't experienced ourselves? Roz: We absolutely can. I did that with my novel Ever Rest. It has a lot about the grief of losing a companion, a close friend, a lover. I'm very lucky—I'm going to touch some wood right now—I'm very lucky it hasn't happened to me, but I managed to find genuine place to understand the emotion. Then, shortly after I published it, a reader contacted me and said her husband had just died and she was reading my book. I thought, oh, heavens, this is a real test. She said, “You've got it. This is what I needed.” So we can seek understanding and empathy of situations we haven't personally been in if we are perceptive, and truthful, and looking for the reality, and be sensitive. So we can write things we haven't personally experienced, but we can write them from a place of wanting to understand them. Here, actually, beta readers can be very important because you can bounce something off a beta reader and say, “Can you just look at this and check I've got the truth?” Joanna: And of course, for my genre fiction, I was just thinking how ridiculous that question was as I was saying it. Like in my Catacomb, which is a horror book—I can't say much without being a spoiler—but there are lots of things in genre fiction, in fantasy, also in romance, there's lots of things that people haven't experienced that they are writing about. I guess it's more cathartic for the reader because the reader doesn't actually necessarily want to experience that either. Roz: Yes, but they do want to feel this authenticity there. If you think about the word author, it has the word authority in it. They want to feel you are guiding them securely and with complete confidence through an experience. Joanna: So let's come back to that caring about what happens that you mentioned, and creating that emotional connection between a reader and our characters. I know in a previous life you wrote some thrillers, and I obviously read thrillers. Sometimes I get really annoyed because I'm like, I really don't care what happens to this character, it's just action on action. How do we create that emotional connection between a reader and our characters? Roz: Well, that's such a good point to raise because no matter what you're writing, you want to make the reader care. Not necessarily care whether the person that they're reading about lives or dies, but just care what happens next. What you have to do is show why something matters. A mistake that I see in a lot of manuscripts that I'm given, is that we don't understand why something matters. It's as if I can feel the writer thinking, “Well, the reader will just assume it matters.” Well, no, they won't. They actually have to be educated at the start of the book about why a particular situation matters. Then much later on, they will understand why it matters, and you won't have to do nearly so much explaining. Then you can just get on with showing them things. They'll know the characters as well as they would know a friend. They'll think, oh, my goodness, that will really matter. Joanna: I guess we need some more examples there in terms of some concrete ways. I think the word educating, although I know what you mean, to some people it might be sort of like, “Oh, do I need a big info dump about the backstory of this person and why this particular thing is so important?” So maybe just— Give us an example of how educating a reader might work without an info dump. Roz: Yes, that's a very good point. You don't have to do an info dump, you can actually just put in a few details that give context. So for example, you might have a person looking out of the window, and they see a strange car drive up and stop near their house. They might think, “Oh, a strange car has driven up beside the house.” Some writers might just leave it there, but a writer who is taking a bit more care about educating the reader—we'll use that phrase—might linger a bit longer on what the person's concerns are. So this person looking out of the window and bei

How can you lean into intuition and curiosity to embrace discovery writing? How might serial fiction fit into your business model? KimBoo York gives her tips and more in this interview. In the intro, BookVault now has integration with PayHip; 7 lessons learned from 5 years writing full-time [Sacha Black, Rebel Author Podcast]; My author timeline; List of money books; Crowdfunding for Participation, Profit, and Payment [Self-Publishing Advice] This podcast is sponsored by Kobo Writing Life, which helps authors self-publish and reach readers in global markets through the Kobo eco-system. You can also subscribe to the Kobo Writing Life podcast for interviews with successful indie authors. This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  KimBoo York is the author of romance, fantasy, and nonfiction, as well as a productivity coach, and a podcaster at The Author Alchemist and Around the Writer's Table. Her latest book for authors is By the Seat of Your Pants: Secrets of Discovery Writing. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes What is discovery writing and how does it differ from plotting and outlining? How trust and intuition guide discovery writing Where to begin the discovery writing process Adding layers during the writing and editing process The “penny drop” moment of discovery writing Embracing the process that works for you Differences between a serial, a series, and a novel Platforms and marketing for different genres of serials Building a business model based on ‘you' You can find KimBoo at HouseofYork.info. Transcript of Interview with KimBoo York Joanna: KimBoo York is the author of romance, fantasy and nonfiction, as well as a productivity coach, and a podcaster at The Author Alchemist and Around the Writer's Table. Her latest book for authors is By the Seat of Your Pants: Secrets of Discovery Writing. So welcome, KimBoo. KimBoo: Thank you so much, Joanna. You know I am thrilled to be here. I'm very excited. Joanna: Oh, good. So first up— Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and publishing. KimBoo: I'm one of those bog standard, ‘I wanted to be a storyteller since I was a kid.' I loved reading as a kid. I loved telling stories. I think I got into fanfiction when I was like 10 years old, which was like after the original Star Wars. We're talking in the 70s, because I'm old, Joanna, so this was a long time ago. In the modern era, let's say, I got back into writing original fiction, again, through fanfiction. I came into fanfiction during a very rough time of my life, in about 2007/2008. I wrote a lot, and doing that got me back into the habit of writing regularly. I had given up on it throughout the 90s because I just kind of decided nobody was ever going to publish what I wrote. The publishing industry was just too hidebound, didn't want people like me. Eventually, some friends of mine got published, got their original fiction published, and they were like, you could do it too. So I did eventually get published by a small indie publisher in 2011. I eventually went totally independent, self-published later. I got the rights back to my books and republished them, and I've kind of just been rolling on ever since. In early 2023, I really rejuvenized my author career. I realized the way things were going. As you and I talked about before the recording started, serial fiction is a huge growth area right now, and because of my experiences in fanfiction, I love the serial format. So that really just got me back into the game. So that's where I am right now. I'm trying to make it all work, juggling a bunch of plates. Joanna: Okay, wow. We're gonna come back to the serial side because I definitely want to talk about that. I do just want to mention the fanfiction. I feel like this is something that doesn't get talked about very much. Given that you did quite a lot of it before writing your own stuff, just remind people what is the legal aspect of fan fiction. In terms of— Can people publish what they write in fanfiction worlds? KimBoo: So the straight legal answer is no. You can't make money off of fanfiction. There's a lot of people who are doing gray areas in that, I do not recommend it. Fanfiction is a hobby, fanfiction is a pastime. There's been some legal contest of it. I'm in the US, so that's where the copyright laws I'm familiar with. It differs by country, as you well know, Joanna. So, no, you can't make money off of fanfiction. It's a hobby. That said, there's lots of places where you can share your fanfiction. There's Archive of Our Own, quickly known as AO3, which is basically a repository where people can post their fanfiction that they're working on. That is huge. I think that's like the third biggest site in the world right now. It's massive. So there's a lot of community there, which I think is the most valuable aspect of fanfiction. In fact, I am now working on a book called Out From Fanfiction which chronicles my own journey, and also gives people advice on how to morph from writing fanfiction to original fiction. They're not the same, but fanfiction can be a great learning ground for you if that's your passion. Joanna: I think that's great and really important to say. It's good for us to remember too, as we create our own original characters. It's like you kind of want to encourage people to love characters enough to write about them, but not to publish books about them. I'd be really interested in that book when it comes out because I feel like a lot of people get started there. Let's get into the current book on discovery writing. So let's define that. What is discovery writing? How does it differ from plotting or outlining? KimBoo: So a lot of times people describe discovery writing as the absence of. Like you are not using an outline, you are not using a summary, you are not planning it out ahead of time. I find discovery writing, in a more positive description, is that you're leaning into your curiosity. So you're not deciding ahead of time what happens to your character specifically. You might know that your character's going on a trip. They're a pirate, and they're going to go pirating around the Caribbean. You don't know specifically like where they're going to go, or how they're going to get there, and what they're going to encounter along the way. You don't know because that excites you as a writer. So you get into it because you're like, “I want to know what happens next!” So that same rush that a lot of people get when they're reading a story is a foundational aspect of using discovery writing as a technique. That's one of the things I really push in my book is that discovery writing is a technique. It is a technique you use with outlining, using story beats, without any of those things. It's a technique that you can hone and improve upon over time by practicing it. So that's kind of the short version of what I think discovery writing is and how it can be useful to writers. Joanna: I love this. I do think your book is fantastic as a discovery writer. Well, as I was saying, I wrote a chapter on this in my How To Write a Novel book, but you've got a whole book on it. At first, it was funny because I was like, how has she done a whole book on this? As you said, you actually do go through various levels of techniques and all that. I do want to come back to this positive choice, as in it's not like the thing that's left over if you don't do plotting. I feel like almost that's the same as being an indie author. So many people have this sort of, “oh, I can't get traditionally published, so I will self-publish.” In the same way, this is like a positive choice for a career, this is a positive choice— Well, although I say that, I often feel like I have tried to plot, but it just is not me. So perhaps— Is there something more innate about being a discovery writer? KimBoo: I think there is in some way. Joanna, we both know people who do outlines. Some people do like a one sentence outline for each chapter. Some people have 30-page outline treatments. That's per author, that's how their brain works. I did work in disability services in higher education for about 10 years. One of the most valuable things I took away from that experience working with people and students in the college environment was everybody's brain works differently. So I do think that there is a certain level of inclination for people like us, that that is how our brain works. We need that dopamine serotonin rush of curiosity to get us into the story. I hear a lot of writers, and it was certainly my experience as well, that when they wrote an outline, and it was a great outline for a great story, their brain kind of felt like they could write the story because they had already thought that it was written. Like it was already over, there was nothing left. I've tried, like you, I've tried using outlines. Every time I do, I either don't write the story at all because I'm just like, well, that's done. Or I try to write it according to the outline, and then I go off script completely because my curiosity takes me in a different direction. So I think there is a certain level of inclination there. Then again, you know, I have used outlining and reverse outlining. So outlining is a tool that I use, it's a technique that has been helpful for me in writing my books, but I am more inclined to discovery writing. Joanna: Yes, I agree. It's very interesting. We're all different, but actually, you and I are quite similar it sounds, in terms of our writing. You mentioned “the rush” before. I was thinking about

How can you make sure your manuscript is ready for submission to an agent — or for publication if you go indie? What are the benefits and challenges of traditional publishing? Will they really do all the marketing for you? Renee Fountain talks about these things and more in today's interview. In the intro, Referencing and citations [Self Publishing Advice]; will.i.am on the WSJ talking about AI, music and media; Behind the scenes of Pilgrimage [BookBrunch]; how a chapel visit in Zambia led to a published short story [X @mwanabibi] This episode is sponsored by Publisher Rocket, which will help you get your book in front of more Amazon readers so you can spend less time marketing and more time writing. I use Publisher Rocket for researching book titles, categories, and keywords — for new books and for updating my backlist. Check it out at www.PublisherRocket.com This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Renee Fountain has more than three decades in the publishing industry, including being a literary agent, a developmental editor, and story analyst. She is the president of Gandolfo Helin & Fountain Literary Management and founder of Gryphon Quill Editing. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Main issues seen with manuscript submissions Is your manuscript overwritten? Tips on pacing What is developmental editing? Key elements of a pitch package and query letter Will traditional publishers do all the marketing for you? Using an agent to get a TV or film deal vs. going indie Dealing with rejection Cash flow management in traditional publishing You can find Renee at GHliterary.com or ReneeFountain.com. Transcript of Interview with Renee Fountain Joanna: Renee Fountain has more than three decades in the publishing industry, including being a literary agent, a developmental editor, and story analyst. She is the president of Gandolfo Helin & Fountain Literary Management and founder of Gryphon Quill Editing. So welcome to the show, Renee. Renee: Thank you very much. Great to be here. Joanna: Yes, indeed. So first up— Tell us a bit more about you, how you got into the publishing industry, and what you do now. Renee: Well, I've loved books since I was a little kid. I was that kid getting yelled at for reading under the covers with a flashlight when I was supposed to be sleeping. So after a bunch of boring jobs, I wanted to do something I love. So I was living in San Diego at the time, and Harcourt Brace was the only publisher there. So I thought, I'm going to do that. I started in the very boring division of accounting guides before landing a coveted spot in children's books. I eventually moved back to New York City, just in time for 9/11. So that kind of dashed my hopes of growing my publishing empire. Now I'm wearing a few hats. I'm a literary agent—when I did come back to New York, I did go with Simon and Schuster eventually. So now I'm wearing a few hats. I'm a literary agent. I'm a developmental editor, working with writers in my private business. I'm also on the faculty of Manuscript Academy, working with writers there. I'm also writing reviews for Kirkus Indie because it's one of the few ways I get to keep my own writing skills sharp while dipping my toe in the indie pool. Joanna: A portfolio career, as they call it. Renee: Sure, why not? Joanna: I say I'm a multi-passionate creative, so don't put me in a one-genre box! Now, when you pitched me, it was really interesting. You said, “I get a lot of manuscript submissions that are just not query ready.” I was like, oh, my goodness, that is a super juicy topic. So let's get into that. What are the main issues you see with those manuscript submissions? Renee: Mostly it's the writing, whether at a line level or the overall story structure. It could be the writing isn't strong enough yet or the word count may be too high for the genre they're writing. It's mostly due to loose writing, bad pacing, excessive description, or the scene goes on way too long. Or what I call “story for story sake.” Just telling the reader a lot of stuff that doesn't really matter in the big picture, no matter how interesting it is. You'll know if you have that if you take out that section and it still makes sense. So it's just a lot of things just aren't quite gelling yet. I've talked to so many people that are just like, “Well, I want to work on a new project, so I just need to get it out there.” Like it's a time limit, and you've got to shove it out the door. You really don't. You really need to take your time. Joanna: There's a few things to come back on there. I want to address the word count first because this is really interesting, and people don't really understand why word count is an issue. Could you talk a bit more about word count for some of the most common genres and why it's a problem if it goes on too long? Renee: I hear a lot of talk about they say that for my first book, I shouldn't exceed X amount of words. Well, if your story holds it, then it's fine. The problem is when you say, “Oh, Renee, I've written this 150,000-word romance.” It's like, mmm, probably not. I mean, I know you wrote it, but you probably have a lot of stuff in there that doesn't need to be there. So genre in general has a word count that you should kind of be shooting for. A thriller can be done between 70 and 90, depending on the story. Fantasy is one of the few things that are going to go above 100. That's really what we're looking for. You know, you talk about red flags when you see a query, it's like if I see 150,000-word romance, I know there's a problem. Joanna: So back in the day, I understood it to be that word count was very much about spine size. So you mentioned there thrillers, 70,000 to 90,000. I write thrillers, but I write shorter thrillers than that. I mean, 70 would be the highest. When most books are sold online, how big a deal is spine size? Or is it more about, for example, editorial budget for 150,000 words is much more than a 60,000-word book? Renee: Well, I mean, with George R.R. Martin still getting published with his microscopic font in his giant 1000-plus page books, like I say, he's still sticking in genre, but I don't know how much times have changed now. Editing in the Big Five, they really want you to do all that heavy lifting before it gets to them. Things have evolved, it's changed. I never really thought of it in terms of spine size so much as what the story tends to hold. So if you've ever seen 150,000-page romance, that's quite the book. You have to imagine it's overwritten. Now, opposed to going the other direction of having something where the word count is too small. Like if you said, “Renee, I wrote this 52,000-word romance,” or whatever it is, the problem becomes pricing at that point. They really like the sweet spot of around 70. They really don't like it under that because of the pricing issue. Joanna: Yes, this is so funny. I feel like we've been so boxed in with pricing because of Amazon's $9.99 cap as well. I read a lot of nonfiction too, and nonfiction can be shorter and readers will pay more. It really is only a fiction issue with pricing, I think. Renee: Yes, you expect nonfiction to be a slightly lower count. Somewhere in the 60s and higher, depending on the topic. I think where nonfiction comes in is that you can be more direct in whatever it is, the issue that you're talking about. It can also go higher. If it's a narrative nonfiction, you're going to another 320-page, 350-page book. So it all varies within there too, but yes, they can hold a lower count. Joanna: Well, let's come back to the word ‘overwritten.' You know what that means, but it's very hard to know what it means when you're the author. What are some ways that an author could analyze their own manuscript to find whether or not they have overwritten? Or you mentioned story for story sake. How do people know that they have these problems without working with an editor first? Renee: Well, I think with a lot of stuff with authors, it's tough. You can be a great writer, but you've been working on it so long, you can't see the forest for the trees anymore, and your brain fills in all the gaps. So sometimes it's hard to see it for yourself, and that's where you get a fresh pair of eyes. Whether that's a professional editor, or whether that's another author that you admire, that their books are good. Anybody who understands pacing because that's where it's all going to come into, the fact that you have the story for story sake. You're writing this long scene, and you're describing everything on the person's desk and everything on the walls, trying to “set the scene,” but none of it is really that important. You're giving the reader a lot to remember and think about. Whereas if on that desk was a secret relic, that magical thing, yes, you're going to say, “among the pens and the other stuff, you've got this relic.” That's the part we're going to remember. The idea is if you take some of this extraneous stuff out and the story keeps moving forward, like you've not missed it. If it's like you had to know about this part, you of course, don't take that stuff out. It's when you take the stuff out and nothing is missed and the story is still whole, that's when you know you're just giving a lot of information. I've read books where the information was fun, I enjoyed reading it, but in the real big picture, it didn't have anything to do with it. It was just taking up a lot of real estate for no productive reason. Joanna: You also mentioned before, that feeling of

Can you have a business with a soul through writing? How does the business of fiction differ from non-fiction? What are some tips for pitching a book for film & TV? All this and more with Aurora Winter. In the intro, 100 book marketing ideas [Written Word Media]; 25 indie authors tips to finding success [Self Publishing Advice]; BookFunnel for audiobooks; Bookfunnel as landing page for Facebook Ads; TIME signs licensing deal with OpenAI; ALCS AI licensing survey; my 2020 book on AI for authors and publishing. Plus, Corfu on Instagram and proving I am human; In My Time of Dying by Sebastian Junger; Eruption by Michael Crichton and James Patterson; De-Extinction of the Nephilim on JFPennBooks; Other stores]. Today's show is sponsored by Draft2Digital, self-publishing with support, where you can get free formatting, free distribution to multiple stores, and a host of other benefits. Just go to www.draft2digital to get started. This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Aurora Winter is the multi-award-winning author of nonfiction business books and teen fantasy novels, as well as a publisher, TV producer, and serial entrepreneur. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes How writing can help people during difficult times Actionable ways to turn grief into gratitude Tips for pitching to producers The importance of patience and connections in the film industry How self-development can lead to increased opportunities How and when to delegate tasks to a virtual assistant The neuroscience behind effective pitches You can find Aurora at AuroraWinter.com, and her latest book at MagicMysteryAndTheMultiverse.com. Transcript of Interview with Aurora Winter Joanna: Aurora Winter is the multi-award-winning author of nonfiction business books and teen fantasy novels, as well as a publisher, TV producer, and serial entrepreneur. So welcome to the show, Aurora. Aurora: It's so great to be on the show with you, Joanna. Joanna: I'm excited to talk to you. First up— Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and publishing. Aurora: Well, my life changed when I was just nine years old, and I first read the Narnia series by CS Lewis. As I reached for the last book in that series, I just felt such a thrill of anticipation, but also anticipatory grief. I realized the moment that my little nine-year-old hand touched that book, that writers are kinds of wizards. That with just ink on white paper, we can transport the reader to another place in time, even somewhere that doesn't even exist. In that moment, my little nine-year-old heart decided I would do whatever it took to become a great writer, like CS Lewis, and I'm still working on that. Then CS Lewis changed my life a second time after my husband died suddenly. He was only 33, and our son was four. I read CS Lewis's book, A Grief Observed, which was later made into a movie, and that book so touched me because he was willing to share those mad midnight moments. It allowed me to feel like it's okay, I can get through this. So two times, once when I was 31, and once when I was nine, CS Lewis changed my life, and he was already dead. What better way to leave a lasting legacy and help other people than to write books? What better way to uplift, inform, and inspire others? Joanna: How did you get from the nine year old who really wanted to write—we're going to come back to the grief—but you have had loads of businesses. As I said, you're like a serial entrepreneur. You've done loads. So was it a case like many of us, that it was just not a proper job to go into writing? How did you end up back in writing? Aurora: When I went to university, my father who's an economist, scoffed at me when I said that I wanted to major in English. He's like, there's no money in that, do something sensible. So I studied economics, I have an MBA now. Yet, I always had this passion for writing. So I took a minor in languages and literature, and I never stopped writing. I was writing journals, or as a nine-year-old, I wrote little illustrated stories that never got beyond chapter three. Then eventually, one thing leads to another. I actually got sick, to be honest. I was running a profitable business with my husband. We had launched a yacht sales company, it was a seven-figure business. We sold $3 million of boats in one week when I was pregnant. I'm like, okay, this is a very lucrative business, and yet my soul was sick. I was missing writing. So after my baby was born, I got up at 4 a.m. to write, and then I looked after the baby, and then I did the accounting for the company, and I got sick. I got chronic fatigue syndrome, or Epstein Barr. I realized I couldn't put my soul aside forever, that there would be a price to pay. So I went back into writing screenplays. Then, this is a little mini miracle, can you believe it, a feature film came to shoot in Vancouver, BC, Canada, where I lived at the time. The production manager for John Badham, who directed the movie Stakeout and Bird on a Wire called and said, “Hey, we need to use a boat. Can we rent one of your boats?” I heard my husband answering the phone, “We don't rent boats. We've got brand new $200,000 boats for sale.” I'm like, “Wait a minute, hold on! Hang on a second. I'm a screenwriter. Yes, we do rent boats if it's John Badham calling.” So my husband skippered the boat and I crewed. I met Mel Gibson and Goldie Hawn, and the first assistant director on that shoot Peter Marshall and I became friends. Later he hired me to write the first screenplay that I wrote for real money. So what are the chances that the universe would actually bring that right to me? Then through various other miracles, my life changed and I ended up in film and television. Joanna: Wow. Okay, we're going to come back to that. I know it's a difficult topic, but you've written about the death of your husband, and many people listening, I mean, everyone at some point is going to go through grief. Of course, for you, the very early tragic death of your husband. You've also helped others with grief, which again, you turned your own trouble into helping others. How can writing help people with difficult times? If people are going through this right now or it's something that they're suffering, even if they don't want to publish their words, I think that's really important. How can writing help that situation? Aurora: Well, you wrote about it so beautifully in Writing the Shadow: Turn Your Inner Darkness Into Words, which I highly recommend. I love this book, I have it right by my night table. It's a beautiful addition that you did on Kickstarter. What you just said about even if it's not being published, I think that's the first thing to lean into. Write for yourself at first. Don't think about publishing at first, especially if you're writing about grief. Writers pay attention. The act of writing is paying attention. You would be surprised how you can alchemize pain into wisdom, grief into gratitude, if you take the time to first vent and just get all that stuff out on the page. Then later, for example, my first published book, From Heartbreak to Happiness, which was endorsed by Dr. Wayne Dyer, my hero, was simply my diary of healing through grief. When I reread my diary, I was floored to notice how many times my prayers had been answered, but I hadn't been grateful at the time because the prayers were answered three months later, six months later. I hadn't noticed, hey, I prayed for that. There is value in writing and in reviewing what you have written. That will bring you greater wisdom. So my 90-day challenge for the listeners is write every day, even for five minutes in your journal. Read every day, you can start with reading the book Writing the Shadow by Joanna Penn, it's amazing. Then review what you have written once a week. If you do that for 90 days, I promise you, your life will transform. You will start to notice the things that you are complaining about. If you're still complaining about something 90 days later, you should do something about it, or you should just stop complaining. You write in your book, Writing the Shadow, about how grateful you were that you were in so much pain working in IT that you finally shifted. There's value in pain, and if we're complaining or suffering, either we need to accept, forgive, or release. The past will never change, but we do have the present moment we can change. So there's a great value in writing about grief or any kind of suffering that you're going through. Joanna: Yes, I mean, you said it before about “my soul was sick.” Sometimes we do have to be in those very difficult places. I'm not saying, obviously, that people should die, but people do die. That is the reality of life. Turning that, as you said, into gratitude is amazing. I do just want to say there for reviewing what we've written, I do read back some of my journals from like 20 years ago, and some things never change, but we hope that other things move on. Aurora: Yes. Well, I've studied happiness extensively, as you mentioned. I later launched a company called The Grief Coach Academy, which is being run by an amazing woman now, Audrey White. So it continues on, although I've gone on to focus on other things. I created a systemized process for releasing and transforming grief into gratitude. Anyway, one of the key things that everybody can do, you can do this starting now, and I did it last night, I do it every night, is just list three things that you're grateful for. You can write it down, or what I do is just as I'm falling asleep, I t

How do we write authentic humanity into our books, whether that's our own experience or a fictional character's? How can we embrace the challenges of life and the author journey and make the most of the opportunities along the way? Efren Delgado gives his tips in this interview. In the intro, How to plan and release a second edition of your book [SelfPublishingAdvice]; plus, Kickstarter update; Stone carving a green man; De-Extinction of the Nephilim [JFPennBooks; other stores]; Today's show is sponsored by ProWritingAid, writing and editing software that goes way beyond just grammar and typo checking. With its detailed reports on how to improve your writing and integration with writing software, ProWritingAid will help you improve your book before you send it to an editor, agent or publisher. Check it out for free or get 15% off the premium edition at www.ProWritingAid.com/joanna This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Efren Delgado is a former FBI special agent with 25 years of national security, law enforcement, and private protection experience. He's also a consultant, professional speaker, and the author of The Opposite is True: Discover Your Unexpected Enemies, Allies, and Purpose Through the Eyes of Counterintuitive Psychology. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Balancing being authentic while maintaining your boundaries How to take our failures and move on to success Creating a mind map to help during the brainstorming process Fact checking and managing citations when writing nonfiction Writing to deal with trauma while avoiding using it as therapy Uncomfortable truths indie authors need to face about the industry Common misconceptions authors get wrong when writing FBI thrillers You can find Efren at EfrenDelgado.com. Transcript of Interview with Efren Delgado Joanna: Efren Delgado is a former FBI special agent with 25 years of national security, law enforcement, and private protection experience. He's also a consultant, professional speaker, and the author of The Opposite is True: Discover Your Unexpected Enemies, Allies, and Purpose Through the Eyes of Counterintuitive Psychology. So welcome to the show, Efren. Efren: Thank you, Joanna. I've been looking forward to this. Joanna: Yes, it's very exciting. First off— Tell us a bit more about you and how you went from FBI agent to author. Efren: I'm going to backtrack a little bit. It all started from a little bit of minor bullying, relatively minor bullying, when I was a child. That planted a basic seed in me just asking, why would people choose to be mean when they could simply be nice? If you think about that question, it's the fundamental question of psychology. Why do people do what they do? More specifically, why do bad people do what they do? As a child, I had no idea and a legitimate interest. So that seed was there. It did also inspire me to want to protect others if I ever could. As I grew up throughout school and university, I developed my interest in psychology and, accidentally, my interest in criminology. I decided to pursue a career in protecting people, and I simply thought the best vehicle for that was the FBI. So I joined the FBI, I implemented my purpose, you could say, in protecting people in the National Security Division of the FBI, and later the Criminal Division, what most people think of when they think of the FBI. Then later in the private sector, protecting people as a bodyguard and a threat assessment consultant. Now, currently as a writer, author, speaker, I'm just trying to express the observations I've made to help encourage the “good guys,” your audience and my reader, that they are actually stronger than the bad guys. They are not chihuahuas barking at the doorbell presenting this large presentation of how scary they are. Good guys actually have the courage to be vulnerable, to be humble, to be kind. That's the main message I want to come across, and that's what brought me to the FBI, and brought me to you today. Joanna: Yes, and I love the book. We're going to get into it in a minute. I'm fascinated. So you were bullied, and you became a protector. Obviously, a lot of people listening are fiction writers, and so often when we think about writing antagonists, sometimes they may have been bullied and turn into bullies. Sometimes people who are abused become abusers, whereas some people who are abused become protectors. So just with all your knowledge of psychology and criminal behavior— How do you think people become the protector instead of the bully in a situation where you came from? When does it go one way, not the other? Efren: So I love this question, not only as a protector, but also as an author. The best antagonists, the best protagonists, have elements of both. It's just not one or the other. So in the writing world, you'll have an antagonist who is this evil villain, but you have these pet the dog moments, and that's showing their humanity, their motive. Their belief might not be that they're actually evil, they actually might think they're doing good, they're just misguided. Then the opposite is true with the good guys. They're the most interesting protagonists, or characters in general. They have some dichotomy there too. They're not saints, but they show some human vulnerability. So I've seen that in the real world too. The answer is not as complicated as it seems. The trend, the pattern I've noticed all of my life, and particularly in the criminal world, is — Good guys are more selfless, and the bad guys are more selfish. There's a reason for both of those. They always bark at the doorbell, like the analogy I was giving you before, not because they're brave and courageous, but they're so scared that whatever's on the other side will actually see their weaknesses. So they selfishly attack, project, and they're very loud so that nobody dare see what's on their inside. On the other side, the good people expose themselves to their weaknesses or imperfections, their mortality. That takes courage. That takes risk of being judged, risk of being ridiculed, risk of exposing your humanity, and that's all bravery. The antagonists are jealous of that bravery. They have that envy. What do people do when they're envious and jealous? They hate. What do you do with things you hate? You attack. That creates your villain. Joanna: Yes, there's loads in your book that people can mine for their fiction. Absolutely, and of course, I did psychology as well at various levels in my career. So I loved reading all the psychology stuff. You did mention there that good people expose themselves. That brought me to a quote in your book. This is from the book, “Most people should not know everything about you. That is privileged information that should be held by the special ones who have earned your trust.” I found this really interesting dichotomy in the book between these boundaries and keeping things close to you, don't give too much away, but also, like you just said, good people expose themselves, they are authentic. You're having to put yourself out there, and you're talking about things you've done. So how can we balance these things? How are you balancing these things? Efren: I just think it's really important to acknowledge that if you're human, you're mortal. You have flaws, you have weaknesses, you have insecurities, you have failures. That's what makes us human. Instead of shrinking away from all of those imperfections, we should embrace our humanity. Even though it's difficult to do, anything worthwhile is difficult. So part of that is acknowledging the concept I talk about, that oil and water, emotion and logic, don't mix. So these insecurities are coming from an emotional place. So simply acknowledging our imperfections and other people's imperfections, you have to be careful about who you trust with those insecurities, and your secrets, and your goals, your ambitions, because it's very easy for the naysayers, the negative nancies of the world, to tear you down and pull you off your path, or at least distract you from your path. So I suggest to your audience, to my readers, to be truly dispassionate when you're assessing your associates, your family members, your friends, your colleagues, and be objective. Recognize the patterns of people who have always been supportive and encouraging, and reward those people with trust in them, with more of your business, your life, your insecurities, your interests, your goals. Don't be in denial about people who should be your allies, but are not. Simply because they're blood, or you've known them for 30 years, or you've done business deals with them, if your gut is telling you they're not truly your allies, listen to that. It's hard enough to seek your purpose and climb your mountain to reach your summit, you don't need to invite other people to pull you down. So I just ask everybody to be truly objective and discerning about who their true wolf pack is, and sometimes you just have to fly alone like an eagle. Joanna: Just some practicalities, though. Again, with your background and a lot of the details you've included in the book, which as you put in the beginning, you have had to run past the FBI. You haven't shared anything you couldn't share, but you do really put stuff out there that gives away a lot about you. I imagine there are people out there who might have some issues with you. So how do you balance putting yourself out there in the world to share what you want to with your own safety and this kind of difficult balance? Now, most of us won't be in the situation you

How can we use AI tools to enhance and improve our creative process? How can we double down on being human by writing what we are passionate about, while still using generative AI to help fulfil our creative vision? Rachelle Ayala gives her thoughts in this episode. Today's show is sponsored by my patrons! Join my community and get access to extra videos on writing craft, author business, AI and behind the scenes info, plus an extra Q&A show a month where I answer Patron questions. It's about the same as a black coffee a month! Join the community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn Rachelle Ayala is the multi-award-winning USA Today bestselling author of playful and passionate romances with a twist. She also has a series of books for authors, including Write with AI, An AI Author's Journal, and AI Fiction Mastery. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Understanding generative AI tools as a non-technical person How the creative process can work with AI tools and why it's always changing Using AI tools as a collaborative discovery process, and why it's all about your creative vision and author voice. For more on this, check out my AI-Assisted Artisan Author episode Aspects of copyright Staying focused on writing as new AI technology emerges, and why you need to double down on being human You can find Rachelle at RachelleAyala.net. Transcript of Interview with Rachelle Ayala Joanna: Rachelle Ayala is the multi-award-winning USA Today bestselling author of playful and passionate romances with a twist. She also has a series of books for authors, including Write with AI, An AI Author's Journal, and AI Fiction Mastery. So welcome to the show, Rachelle. Rachelle: Thank you, Joanna. Thank you for having me. Joanna: I'm super excited to talk to you. As I was telling you, I have the ebook and the print edition of AI Fiction Mastery because I think you put things so well in your writing. Before we get into it— Tell us a bit more about you and your background in technology and writing. Rachelle: Okay, sure. I was a math major, and I actually have a PhD in applied math. So you would think that's kind of the farthest thing from writing. I got into parallel computing back in the 80s. Then in the early 90s, neural networks, where we were basically trying to recognize handwritten characters between zero to nine. So that was quite interesting and fascinating. So I basically worked in software development and network management until 2011. Then I got into writing. So romance writing was my gig, and I liked dealing with feelings and happy endings. Joanna: Well, I love that, going from maths and neural networks into romance. You do explain a lot of the stuff behind AI in your books, which I think is really good. You're used to writing for normal people, so I don't find your writing technical at all. Do you think people who are not very technical are struggling with this AI world at the moment? Rachelle: I don't even think you need to be technical to understand AI because—well, there's different types of AI, but we're talking about large language models for writing. So there's other AI systems like expert systems, machine learning, and people have been using that. They don't even know it, but they've been using it under the hood. The AI we're talking about, large language models, ChatGPT was one of the first ones that most people became aware of. So GPT is a Generative Pretrained Transformer. You could think of it as a word slot machine, where you could think of all these slots. So when you write a prompt, then the AI will look at the words that are in there, and then try to predict the best word that comes after. Let's say, we say Monday, Wednesday, and most people will say Friday because that's the next word that you think of. Or if you say Monday, Tuesday, most people will say Wednesday. So what the AI does is it was trained on reading, I think somebody said between half a trillion or trillion pieces of text. When an AI is trained, it's not reading a book like we do, where we read it from beginning to end. So think of if you cut a piece of newspaper into a strip or a square, and then it's got all these words that are in there, and it's looking for words, associations, and patterns. So it'll say, oh, this word goes with that word, and those words go together. So it could take a word like, say, “bark.” If it sees dog in the other slots, it's going to most likely come out with “woof,” but if it sees trees in the other slot, then it might say, “the bark is wrinkly or hard,” and it's thinking of a tree bark. So that's how it is able to create words, and that's why you think it's intelligent, because it understands the context. It does so with these huge, huge context windows. So I don't want to get too technical, but a context window is how many words can it keep in its memory. So it can look at all these associations and how those words go together, so it can best predict the next word that comes out of this word slot machine, so to say. It doesn't remember anything. Joanna: It's interesting. You mentioned words there, like associations and patterns. I feel like the big misunderstanding with large language models is that some authors think that it's more like a database, where all these “stolen” books are sitting in a big database. Then if you query it, it will pull out exact chunks from other people's books and use them. So you're always going to plagiarize or you're always going to be “stealing.” Like you and I hear these words a lot from authors who are really just starting out. Can you explain why it's not a database? Rachelle: Well, databases are storage. So if you query at a database, it pulls out exactly what's in there. I mean, this is like your social security number. It's not going to get it wrong, it's going to pull it right out. Your birthdate, if it's entered in correctly, it will pull it out. Everybody knows that AI doesn't get things correct, or it doesn't get things exact. If you prompt it twice with the same prompt, like, say, “Write me a story about a road runner who is sick,” or something, it's going to write you something different. Even that, if you think about how they trained AI, they trained it by inputting all these words that are associated together. Then they adjusted the weights of how these words are more likely to be with those words. They're not retaining the words, the words are thrown away. The only thing it keeps is the weight. So sort of like when you read a book, unless you have a photographic memory, you cannot recall that book, but you can recall the concepts because you have made associations between what you read and it communicated to you these ideas. In fact, people say our memories are not like videos, our memories are actually assembled whenever we're recalling something. So we are making things up on the fly, based on all the associations that we've had in our lives. Similarly, that's how AI LLM really is making up things. So when people say it lies to you, it's like, no. It's actually just making things up. You gave it a prompt that said, like, “Say happy birthday to me,” and it just keeps going with that. There's also something called a temperature knob where you could basically increase the randomness, because you know, it's boring if that always gives you the same answer. So they built in this randomness thing where it's going to look for either the most probable, or the next most probable, or it has a whole list of probable words that come next. If you turn on that temperature, you dial it all the way up, you're going to get gibberish. The other thing with LLMs, they've literally read the kitchen sink. It's not just literature, they read code. So a lot of times, if I turn up the temperature and I'm prompting it, all of a sudden it's just all this gibberish code that comes out of it. So that just shows you that it has no memory. Joanna: I think that's definitely one of the reasons why the legal cases are so complicated and why people actually need to have some technical idea. It's not just a case of like copying and pasting. Let's talk more about your creative process. So you're a discovery writer, which I love, although you have given tips for outlining in your books. Can you tell us— How does your creative process work with AI? Are you just writing a prompt and then hitting publish? Rachelle: Oh, definitely not. I think the first time I got on ChatGPT, and I'm sure every one of you guys have done it, you said, “Write me a novel.” Then ChatGPT wrote a 200-word story about some rabbit jumping across a meadow, and it might have seen a turtle, and it's like a kid story. So it's interesting, and it's fun. I think today, they probably won't do any of that because they put some processing in where it will probably say, “Please give me enough detail.” At the very beginning, it would happily go off and write this little fanciful story. So getting back to, yes, I'm a discovery writer, but I think I have also learned about story structure. So very early in writing, I realized that if I just sat there and meandered around with my character, we could do all these interesting things, but it would not be telling a story. A story has to have some kind of meaning behind it. So it's characters, they're going through actions, they're experiencing things, but there needs to be an emotional meaning behind it or something where readers want to find out what happens next. So I did study story structure. I think I read Larry Brooks's book on story engineering, so I know about the inciting incident, and the progressive complications, and t

What are some of the common fears that writers face? How can we work through them in order to create more freely? Caroline Donahue gives her tips in this interview. In the intro, How to avoid indie author scams [ALLi; Writer Beware]; Financial strategies and mindset [Self Publishing Advice]; Apple Intelligence at WWDC [The Verge; Marketing against the Grain]; “Not a chef, but an emotion creator.” Massimo Bottura on the Possible Podcast. Plus, Spear of Destiny is on its last day; Thoughts on photography permissions for commercial use — and permission in general; Voodoo Vintners; Winchester pictures; Limeburn Hill vineyard pictures. This podcast is sponsored by Kobo Writing Life, which helps authors self-publish and reach readers in global markets through the Kobo eco-system. You can also subscribe to the Kobo Writing Life podcast for interviews with successful indie authors. This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Caroline Donahue is an author, podcaster, and book coach. Her latest book is Writing Through Fear: A Story Arcana Guide. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes The most common fears writers face How the fear of not being considered a “real writer” holds you back Overcoming the fear of judgement and being cancelled Fearing things before you are anywhere near them in the process Breaking down projects into smaller, more manageable tasks Embracing the unpredictable nature of creativity The challenges and reasons for rebranding a book Substack as a podcasting platform and community tool You can find Caroline at CarolineDonahue.com, her Substack at book-alchemy.com, and her podcast at SecretLibraryPodcast.com. Transcript of Interview with Caroline Donahue Joanna: Caroline Donahue is an author, podcaster, and book coach. Her latest book is Writing Through Fear: A Story Arcana Guide. So welcome back to the show, Caroline. Caroline: Thank you so much for having me. This is such a treat. Joanna: You were on the show back in 2019 when we talked about your background and writing with the tarot. So we're just going to jump straight into the topic today. Why did you want to write about fear? What sparked the book, and why structure it around Tarot? Caroline: Well, I think that the topic of fear evolved because there were a couple of projects I considered doing before I landed on this one. There was a desire to take a course I created during the pandemic, called Dream to Draft, and I thought, oh, I'll make a book version of that course. I tried to do that for most of a year, actually, and realized that I couldn't really recreate the experience of taking that course. So I was trying to distill down elements of what made the difference for people of being able to finish a book or not finish a book. I noticed that they were able to overcome fears that they had while being in the course. The main difference between people who were finishing books and delighted with their progress, and those who were getting kind of stuck in the swamps of sadness—if you'll forgive the 1980s film reference of The NeverEnding Story—were those who just got completely mired in fear about their writing. So I thought, okay, If I can help people to engage with their fear differently, then they'll be able to write — and I can do that from a distance. So that was what I ultimately got excited about. As for why I paired it with the tarot, for one thing, it made it a much easier book to write because I had a built-in structure. I had wanted to return to the tarot ever since writing the previous book, which focused on the first 22 cards, the Major Arcana. I thought, oh, this is a great way to address the Minors because those are everyday life situations that people face. So I matched one fear to each card. Also, I could imagine people pulling a card. I've already had one person who's read the book respond that when they're about to start a difficult scene or difficult project, they'll pull a card and then read the corresponding fear entry in the book. This helps them get into the writing. So that was delightful to hear. Joanna: That is one of the very useful things about tarot or any of these kinds of things that spark ideas by looking at images or thinking about symbolism. So I think that's actually quite a good way into these fears. It feels like if you try and tackle it head on, it's often much harder. Did the people in your course recognize their fears? Caroline: I think in some cases, yes. In some cases, it looked like other things. When I studied psychology ages ago, you have this kind of fight or flight, or we now have freeze that we know about, and fawn. There are different ways that people engage with things that scare them. Sometimes they look like the cartoon Scream face, if you think of the horror movie, but not always. So I thought that I wanted them to increase their vocabulary of how they could think about fear, so that it wouldn't feel like they had gone wrong and that this was a sign that they shouldn't continue writing. I mean, fear comes up inevitably when we write. As you know, looking at the shadow and writing dark fantasy and suspense, that's part of the process of going into the fictional world, but that doesn't have to be the end point. Just because fear comes up, doesn't mean you have to stop writing. So I wanted them to be able to move through that and get to the other side. Joanna: Let's identify some of the most common fears that writers face. What are some ones that you've encountered again and again in your students, and also in yourself? Caroline: Oh, yes, completely. I think if we had to boil it down, like if we could boil down almost every fear, underneath there is a fear of doing it wrong, that I am doing this wrong. There's a lot that we can pick apart out of that because we have this weird language and belief structure around books. We'll read a book that we love in a bookstore, say, or we read one of the “classics”, and we perceive it like, oh, that book is perfect. It couldn't have been written any other way. It had this exact shape and form that it was supposed to take, and that nothing about it could change, or else it wouldn't exist as it does today. I don't think that that's true, but — A lot of people have this fear that they're going to make a mistake, or they're going to do something wrong, and the whole thing is going to fall apart. There are many flavors of this particular fear, but it's like if you go back to the Robert Frost poem, “Two roads diverged in a wood, and I took the one less traveled by.” Most writers fear that two roads diverged in a wood, and they're going to take the wrong one for their writing project, and then everything is going to fall apart as a result. Joanna: That could be at different stages, right? That could be I'm writing the wrong genre, or I'm writing the wrong story, and then I made the wrong publishing choice, I've chosen the wrong marketing platform. I mean, it's not just one choice, it's over and over again. Caroline: There's so many. It can come up again and again. It's like a whack a mole fear. It's like, oh, I ended the chapter at the wrong point, this character should have this motivation, or the character has the wrong personality trait, or I've formatted the dialogue incorrectly, my grammar is wrong. Like all of this sense is that “real writers”—I could write a whole book on that, this concept of the “real writer”—but that “real writers” do it the “right way”. I am scared that I am not doing it the right way, therefore, I'm not a real writer, therefore, I shouldn't be allowed to write at all. Joanna: So it's interesting you picked that one. How has this [fear of not being a “real writer”] come up for you? Caroline: I think this used to really paralyze me. I mean, in my 20s, I wrote and abandoned about five or six novels, thinking that I had picked the wrong project. I thought that I had picked an idea that was unsalvageable, and I don't feel that there's any idea that's unsalvageable anymore. Part of that is because I read a book, it was a very short novel by an independent press, called Love Notes from a German Building Site. Unfortunately, I can't remember the author in this exact moment. It was essentially a character’s musings and vocabulary lists. It's an Irish author writing about working on an abandoned mall in Germany. So it's one of those ideas where if you presented it to me and said, “Would you like to read a novel about some guy hanging out on a mall construction site, and he's just randomly thinking about his relationship and is not quite sure where that's going?” that really wouldn't get me going. However, I read this book, and I could not put it down. I loved it, and I haven't stopped thinking about it for years. It's always been my example that there is no idea that cannot be executed on. You may not want to execute on it, or you may not be interested in it, but — If you're engaged with the material, then you can keep going, and you can find a way through. I think that I didn't believe that was possible early on. So I gave ideas up when I got scared, or when I felt like, oh, this isn't interesting enough, or I don't know if it was going to work. I felt like this means I've done it wrong, I've gotten lost. I'm lost in the woods, and I'm never going be able to find my way back. That was rather than seeing it as a challenge and thinking there is a way for this story to be interesting. How can I find the parts that I'm most excited about? How can I make the story about those? I didn't have the ability to t

What are the pros and cons of selling direct and building an ecommerce business for your books? How can you use click testing on Meta to help refine your creative and book marketing ideas? Steve Pieper explains in this interview. In the intro, The Hotsheet with Jane Friedman; 20 ways you should be using AI in publishing [PerfectBound]; Artificial Intelligence? No, Collective Intelligence [Ezra Klein with Holly Herndon]; AI may take our jobs, but not our creativity [Claire Silver on The TED AI Show]. Plus, De-Extinction of the Nephilim; my webinar on Discovery Writing as part of the Kickstarter – you can buy it in the bundle or just buy the ebook and get the webinar as an Add-On. Only available until 18 June at JFPenn.com/destiny; Writing modern thrillers based on ancient relics and historical places; Ancient Heroes Podcast; Today's show is sponsored by my patrons! Join my community and get access to extra videos on writing craft, author business, AI and behind the scenes info, plus an extra Q&A show a month where I answer Patron questions. It's about the same as a black coffee a month! Join the community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn Steve Pieper is a USA Today bestselling thriller author under the name Lars Emmerich. He's also an entrepreneur and business consultant, specializing in digital marketing and selling direct with his course, AMMO, Author Marketing Mastery through Optimization. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Why more indie authors are embracing selling direct How the emergence of courses has helped mature the indie author market Differences in the process of selling a print book on Amazon vs. Shopify Cash flow management when selling direct When does it make sense for an author to start selling direct? Using click testing to test a book idea with your target audience Steve's Click Testing and Direct Sales courses — If you're interested, please consider using my affiliate link and supporting the show: www.TheCreativePenn.com/clicktesting You can find Steve at AMMOauthor.com and his books at Lars.buzz. Transcript of Interview with Steve Pieper Joanna: Steve Pieper is a USA Today bestselling thriller author under the name Lars Emmerich. He's also an entrepreneur and business consultant, specializing in digital marketing and selling direct with his course, AMMO, Author Marketing Mastery through Optimization. So welcome back to the show, Steve. Steve: Thank you very much. It's such a pleasure to be here, Jo. Joanna: So you were last on the show in January 2023 when we went into your background. So we're just going to jump into the topic today. It seems like selling direct has gone mainstream in the author community since you were last here. What do you think has happened to make authors embrace selling direct in a much bigger way over the last 18 months? Steve: It's a great question. I think a few things have combined to make it more mainstream, as you say. I think the first thing is that Amazon has effectively capped eBook sales prices at $9.99, and nobody's capped the advertising expenses at any particular number. So it becomes more and more important, as ad costs to generate interest in your books continue to increase along with everything else—aside from eBook prices—it's more and more important to be able to track your metrics. You want to be able to reach people who are purchasers, as opposed to people who are just nearly kind of curious. Those things are made possible when you sell direct because your store knows exactly who purchases from you. You get their email address, you get their name, your store processes their credit card. That information can be fed back to Meta, so Facebook and Instagram, to make your ads operate more efficiently and to bring you new purchasers more profitably. So I think that's the first part of it. I think the second part is that we've heard plenty of stories of some fairly high-profile authors having trouble with their Amazon accounts, often through no fault of their own. Whenever you run a big enterprise, such as Amazon, you have to pay attention to the quality of the listings and the quality of the accounts. You also have to deal with people who are trying to abuse the accounts to make a quick buck. The only way to do that at scale is algorithmically, which means the machines are making decisions about whose account to close and leave open. Often Amazon doesn't even ask the authors what was happening, you just find that your account has been closed. So I think those things have combined to make direct sales a more viable option for people. The third reason is that we've noticed, and this has been true since I first started selling directly in 2017 — Whenever you advertise for your direct sales system, there's this beautiful thing called a cross-channel effect. This is where your book advertisements that point to your store so that people can purchase from you, they produce sales through your store, but they also get people excited who are diehard Amazon customers, for example. So they might see your ad for your store, like what they see, but just prefer to buy from Amazon because of convenience or familiarity or whatever else. So it's kind of a two-for-one deal, and in some cases, like a three- or four-for-one kind of deal, depending on who you are, in terms of advertising dollars and sales that come in. Joanna: Yes, just coming back on that Amazon cap on $9.99. At London Book Fair, I actually talk to an Amazon person, and said, “Look, it's been capped at $9.99 for like forever. A while ago, it wasn't that big a deal, but it is a real big deal now.” I mean, I write nonfiction as well, and nonfiction, in particular, can take a lot higher prices on eBooks. So I agree with you that this is a bit of an issue. Do you think they'll ever change that ebook cap? I mean, inflation is hitting everything, it seems, except eBook sales prices. Steve: Exactly. I don't know for the life of me why they haven't yet. It seems in their best interest, as well, because they're taking 30% of the sale price. So I don't know what economics they're looking at, what data they have. I mean, I can't imagine they have much data on sales performance above $9.99 because you earn half the royalty above $9.99. I can't imagine many authors at all have chosen to take that route. So I have no idea why they haven't made those adjustments yet. I mean, I think it's far more appropriate that if there were a cap at that royalty rate, it seems to me that it would be on par with what you typically see traditionally published eBooks priced at, like around $14.99. Joanna: Yes, exactly. So that will be interesting if they ever change that. I guess they're still trying to push people to subscription for eBooks. I also wondered whether another thing that shifted is almost the maturity of the indie author market, and also the emergence of different ways to learn. I mean, your course has been around for a number of years now, but there are other people starting to teach. [More on selling direct here.] There are, I guess, even people like myself being more vocal about it, even though I sold my first PDF online in 2008, but it certainly wasn't the way you do it. So do you think there's also maybe this confidence? I mean, it was 2007 when the Kindle launched, so we're at 15 years of an indie author market now. Steve: I absolutely think the indie author market has matured. I think in the beginning, the people who did really well in the early days of the Kindle, were those folks who had a catalogue and had their rights returned to them, or who had repurchased their rights. They had a dozen or fifteen or so books to place on the platform, and they were midlist authors in sort of a traditionally published ecosystem. They found tremendous purchase in the new eBook ecosystem, and there were some really high-quality authors there. I think what's happened over the next, like you say, 15ish years in the meantime, is that many, if not most, really high-quality authors, they're just not seeing much economic advantage to the traditionally published route. The royalty split is not attractive. There's a lot of authors who are in our community who are doing extremely well, who at one point were traditionally published, and their careers only began accelerating when they got their rights back and when they became their own business owner and their own business manager for their career. Joanna: Let's get into the benefits and the challenges of selling direct. You mentioned the data that you get and the cross-channel effect, but what are some other things? What are some of the good things, and also some of the challenges? Steve: So once you start getting into the advertisement game, and with sixty million titles available 24/7, 365, at least on Amazon and many other retailers, it's really hard to have anyone discover your books unless you're actively advertising. Or if you're spending a tremendous amount of effort to build a brand, a personal author brand, that also works. It tends to take three to five to seven years to do. As soon as you get into that ecosystem, you are not just a writer, you are now an entrepreneur. You have to run a real business there. You have to pay very close attention to your cash flow and you need to be a professional about how you test and create your ads. The other thing that happens is that as soon as you start spending real money to bring eyeballs to your books, it rapidly exposes any weaknesses in your product quality. The first inkling you might have that things aren't quite right is that people just aren't buying your books. So what you find

What are the tropes of action adventure thrillers? How can you please readers and sell more books? J.F. Penn shares her own tips and also features excerpts from interviews with other thriller writers. J.F. Penn is the award-winning, New York Times and USA Today bestselling author of the ARKANE action-adventure thrillers, the Mapwalker fantasy adventures, and the Brooke & Daniel crime thrillers, as well as horror, travel memoir, and short stories. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Put your characters in difficult and dangerous situations Writing fight scenes Include a ticking clock and high stakes What is a MacGuffin and how is it used? Research into places and experiences Trust your writing instinct and have fun! Help your readers escape to exciting places Using quotes, and source citation Write a series If you love action adventure thrillers, check out the ARKANE series by J.F. Penn. Spear of Destiny, book 13, is out now on Kickstarter with special edition signed exclusive cover hardbacks, plus paperback, large print, ebook, audiobook, and bundle deals in all formats. You can find J.F. Penn at www.jfpenn.com, buy books direct at www.JFPennBooks.com, and read the blog or listen to the Books and Travel Podcast at BooksAndTravel.page. 7 Tips for Writing Action Adventure Thrillers with J.F. Penn I’m an action adventure thriller fan from way back, but what are the hallmarks of the action adventure genre? Clive Cussler said, “Adventure is just putting characters in settings and locales that are unfamiliar to the reader and then as the writer, having fun with what happens.” I’ve always loved adventure stories. As a child I read The Hardy Boys, and King Solomon’s Mines, and I remember the Choose Your Own Adventure books where you would flick to a new page as you made your choice of action. I loved Clive Cussler’s Dirk Pitt series and read a lot of marine biology books, as I thought I might be able to join NUMA or something like it. I was able to meet Clive before he died at Thrillerfest in New York in 2015 and have a selfie which really made my trip. J.F. Penn and Clive Cussler (Thrillerfest, 2015) I discovered Wilbur Smith’s African and ancient Egyptian adventures, then Michael Crichton, Matthew Reilly, and James Rollins, who also combined the religious aspects I enjoyed into his books. I love the Pendergast series from Douglas Preston and Lincoln Child, with its crossover into occult and supernatural. Dan Brown’s The Da Vinci Code came out in 2003, and I jumped into that as soon as it launched. I had previously enjoyed Umberto Eco’s The Name of the Rose, but wanted more action and a modern take on the religious themes. In terms of TV and movies, I loved The A Team, James Bond, Indiana Jones and all the action movies Angelina Jolie did including Lara Croft, and of course, Nicholas Cage in his action movie era — Con Air, The Rock, and Face Off. I loved Arnie in End of Days, Keanu in Constantine, both a blend of action and religious thriller. I have a Masters degree in Theology from the University of Oxford, and although I am not a Christian, I am fascinated by religious history, relics, conspiracy, and places in Europe and the Middle East in particular that have so much rich religious culture. I’m also glad to be able to use my degree in my books since it was pretty useless when I used to implement accounts payable systems as an IT consultant! Adventure is generally a male dominated field, and that’s part of why I wanted to write an action adventure series with a strong female protagonist. Morgan Sierra is my alter-ego, but she has a lot more practical fighting skills. Think Angelina in Mr & Mrs Smith and Salt, or Charlize Theron in The Old Guard. Morgan is most often joined by Jake Timber, her partner at ARKANE, a secret British agency investigating supernatural mysteries around the world. Back in May 2011 with Pentecost — since then I have re-edited, re-covered, re-titled, and changed my author name I started writing the series in 2009 and Pentecost by Joanna Penn came out in 2011, which I later rewrote and rebranded to Stone of Fire in 2015. I did another rewrite in 2022. I've written 13 ARKANE books and a short story across 13 years, during which I’ve written many other books of course, but my ARKANE adventures have to be inspired by real life, and they take a while to research and percolate before writing. They cannot be rushed!  If you’d like to read more action adventure by indie authors, check out RD Brady, David Wood, Alan Baxter, J. Robert Kennedy, PJ Skinner, Ernest Dempsey, Nick Thacker, Avanti Centrae, and Kevin Tumlinson — and yes, several of the list are women. You can recognise us by our initials! Right, let’s get into some tips for writing action adventure thrillers. Tip 1: Put your characters in difficult and dangerous situations Lee Child, author of the Jack Reacher thriller series says, “The three essential things are: Put the characters in danger early; keep the stakes high; and make sure the danger grows throughout the novel.” Gillian Flynn, author and screenwriter of Gone Girl, said, “I like writing about people who are flawed and human. It’s what I enjoy reading and what I enjoy writing. Thrillers are all about how you break somebody, in the best possible way.” In 2011, I was writing the early books in the ARKANE series. Stone of Fire was just out, or Pentecost as it was back then before the rebrand, and Crypt of Bone was almost done. I was still wrestling with writing fight scenes, and I was also slightly worried about writing violence and hard times for my characters. It’s strange to think that now because I love writing fight scenes, and in Spear of Destiny, Morgan Sierra has a particularly good fight with a mysterious soldier in the gorgeous State Library in Vienna. That was fun to write! Vienna State Hall Library. Photo by J.F. Penn, featured in Spear of Destiny But back then, I was still early in my career, so I interviewed David Wood, author of the Dane Maddock Adventures about writing these kinds of scenes. You can find David at DavidWoodWeb.com. “People expect that your main character is going to make it through to the end with some scars, and so you need to create suspense as to how they're going to get there. You need to make them care about the supporting cast and will the supporting cast survive, and also by making the challenges they face greater, you can show more parts of their abilities and their skills with those on display. This book has got more action throughout. I really wanted to develop the antagonist by making their role bigger and bringing them in from the start, I needed to bring them into conflict earlier on. Now I don't do gratuitous, gory things. I'm not Quentin Tarantino. We don't have Kill Bill with the blood jetting out of the necks and things like that. So I try to have a purpose for it, but I think there also is an expectation in thrillers that there's going to be a body count. I think as long as you're not a sicko person, it's pretty easy to compartmentalize and just let your imagination run wild. I know as a kid I like to read about World War II, now that I'm older and I know about war and I've known people who have been killed in it, it's not a glory thing anymore, but it's still interesting. I think, people coming into conflict on that level is fascinating. I listened to the Hardcore History podcast, which is a favorite, and the host, Dan Carlin did an amazing series on the Punic Wars, and he did such a powerful job of describing that hand to hand, eye to eye, chopping each other apart. And it makes you realize how horrific it is. But it's also fascinating because you want, what does that feel like? How does your psyche react? How does your body react? And we wonder what we would do if we were ever faced with a life and death situation.” Fight scenes are part of what readers expect in an action adventure thriller. Personally, I expect a high body count in the thrillers I read. These are no cozy mystery or domestic thrillers where there might be a body or two. These have much higher stakes! Fight scenes are also a staple of the genre, but writing a fight scene when you are not a fighter is a skill you need to learn. I interviewed martial artist and multi-award-winning horror and thriller writer Alan Baxter back in 2011, in the early days of my ARKANE series. I asked him why readers love fight scenes, and in this clip he explains why: “One part of it is escapism because most people have never had a fight. Generally, that's a good thing because even people that do train fighting, it's best if you don't fight. When people fight, people get hurt. Horrible things can happen. I train fighters all the time, and the thing I'm always saying is the first defence, the first block, is to run away. Never fight unless you have to. And so by reading about these things, we get to experience those things from that third person perspective of what’s going on. And I think it’s just a natural extension of fiction. Most stories at their core are dealing in one way or another with conflict. If it’s a love story, it’s emotional conflict or if it’s a mystery, it’s a sort of cerebral conflict or whatever. But what makes an interesting story is conflict and challenges and tests for your characters in all sorts of shapes and forms. So of course, the most distilled version of that is actual physical conflict and people literally fighting against each other in a physical sense. And of course, when you are writing action and you want all this fast paced mayhem goi

How can you adopt the seasons of nature in your writing? How can you allow periods of rest as well as abundance? Jacqueline Suskin explores these ideas and more in this interview. In the intro, thoughts on children's book publishing [Always Take Notes Podcast]; how to market a memoir as an indie author [ALLi]; A desperate quest. A holy relic. A race against time. Spear of Destiny is live on Kickstarter!; What is Kickstarter and why am I launching there?, I'm on the Wordslinger Podcast talking about marketing later books in a series. Book cover designer Stuart Bache on AI for book covers [Brave New Bookshelf]; OpenAI signs licensing deals with The Atlantic, Vox Media, and NewsCorp [OpenAI] Today's show is sponsored by Draft2Digital, self-publishing with support, where you can get free formatting, free distribution to multiple stores, and a host of other benefits. Just go to www.draft2digital to get started. This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Jacqueline Suskin is a poet, author, speaker, and creative consultant. Her latest book is A Year In Practice: Seasonal Rituals And Prompts To Awaken Cycles Of Creative Expression. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Writing a poem quickly, live and in person, or order Choosing the poems that go into a collection and knowing when it's finished The physical beauty of layout on the page Embracing the seasons of life and creativity Trust emergence Choosing the “easeful” path for your next project Celebrating our creative accomplishments while continuing our journey Practices to help us slow down ‘The veil is thin' and how it manifests in our work You can find Jacqueline at JacquelineSuskin.com. Transcript of Interview with Jacqueline Suskin Joanna: Jacqueline Suskin is a poet, author, speaker, and creative consultant. Her latest book is A Year In Practice: Seasonal Rituals And Prompts To Awaken Cycles Of Creative Expression. So welcome to the show, Jacqueline. Jacqueline: Thanks so much for having me. Joanna: I'm excited to talk to you today. First up, just— Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing poetry and books. Jacqueline: I've been writing ever since I was a little kid. I feel like I'm one of those people who just sort of knew at a young age that words were the world I wanted to live in. I didn't really know what that meant for a long time. I didn't know I was writing poems. Then the older I got, the more I was familiarized with that world, and I thought, oh, I've just always been a poet. So I ended up going to university to study poetry, and getting a degree in poetry, and then just continued to follow that. It's really led me to some pretty incredible places, including this project that I've done for a long time called Poem Store, where for about 12 years, my only job was to take my typewriter around to public places and write poems for people on the spot. So I really got this sort of direct connection with the way that everyday people connect with poetry. That has definitely illuminated my path as a writer. Joanna: That is so crazy. I mean, what possessed you to do that? How did you make that a living? I mean, I have seen some people do that. As an introvert who just doesn't really want to speak to people in general, I just find that utterly terrifying. Tell us a bit more about Poem Store. Jacqueline: I mean, honestly, it happened by chance. I just met someone in Oakland who was doing that, and he found out I was a poet, and he invited me to come try it with him. I had just purchased a typewriter, which was so strange, everything kind of aligned magically like that. That was in 2009. I did that as an experiment just to see if I could, and then I just realized almost immediately how special it was. It was the perfect combination of my two skills. One is writing and the other is to connect deeply with people. So I just let myself follow it and see how far I could take it. I had no idea it would become my full-time job. That was very clear, after about a year of doing it at farmer's markets and just kind of continuing the experiment, I was like, I think this is more than an experiment, I think this is something I should probably really give myself over to. Once I did that, it definitely took root and grew into a huge project. I've written over 40,000 poems with Poem Store. I don't really do it in public anymore because I just kind of got burnt out. It was a very young person's world to do that in. I had a lot of energy then, and now I'm a little older, and I feel a little more protective of my energy. In the midst of all of that, that's how I got books published, that's how I met people. It was a really connective way to be part of the community and bring poetry to all types of different people. Joanna: Wow, 40,000 poems. That's kind of incredible. On that, I mean, this is a very interesting thing, and I think goes to the heart of creativity. I do know quite a lot of poets, and some poets insist that it takes a very, very long time to be happy with a poem and put it out in the world. You were basically doing a connection, and then a fast creative publishing type process. How do you connect so deeply and so quickly, and then turn that into creativity in a finished product in a short amount of time? I know you're not doing that anymore, but— How did you change that mindset of “it must take forever to do a poem” to going so quickly? Jacqueline: Well, I like to hold both sides of it. I still, even throughout that whole process, wrote books. Those poems did take a lot of time, and craft, and working with an editor. The painstaking, beautiful longevity of a single poem being on the editing board is something I'm still really familiar with and love a lot. Then I also think there's this freedom in just being able to have this poetic conversation with another person, which is basically what I was doing with Poem Store. These poems that I would make in the moment, they're very spontaneous. so they're including that person's energy, and there's also a mystery there. Like I wasn't quite sure what I was going to write, and I didn't really know what I did write until I would read them the poem when I was finished. Just yesterday, I work in a lot of schools now and just visit kids and show them what it's like to be a poet, teach them about poetry, and I brought my typewriter to class yesterday. There's something really magical that happens when someone has a typewriter, and I think that that was also a big part of it. There was like this deep lore of how is this person being so vulnerable out here in the world writing poetry, but then also, wow, this machine from the past, this is sort of like a time travel opportunity. Joanna: I imagine some of those kids have never even seen a typewriter. Jacqueline: Yes, and there's something about allowing oneself to be free creatively like that. Like those poems had nothing to do with my ego, right? Like, I'll never see them again. I didn't keep copies of them. Every once in a while, I would take photographs of ones that I really loved or something like that. There was something so special about releasing that sense of control, and the need for perfection, and the need for such a clear certain outcome, that I think is actually really nice to apply to art making. Although I really do value the craft and the focus and will continue to write books in that way for the rest of my life, I also will always allow myself to slip into that more improvisational sense of writing. I mean, honestly, even just yesterday, it was a reminder that my imagination is this thing that's always growing and changing, and there's new language to uncover. It feels like a challenge in a playful way.I like, especially as being someone who is a writer for my profession, making any kind of outlet I can for that playfulness in my work. Joanna: I love that. Well, let's talk about the books of poetry, the collections. I'm also fascinated with this, in that you have to choose poems to go into a collection, which are usually themed in some way. I own quite a lot of these collections of poems. How do you choose the poems that go into a collection? How do you know when it's finished? As in, okay, I am happy that this represents whatever that particular point in time is. It seems like quite a nebulous process. Jacqueline: The choosing is really a fun process. I think, for me, what will happen when I know a book is coming into focus, is I will spend my time reviewing what I've been writing over the last year or two years in my journals, and I'll see a pattern or a theme. For example, I made a trilogy of books about my time living in California, and each book in the trilogy is about a certain place that I lived. What allowed me to choose those poems was that I saw this beautiful kind of exploration of place, and I thought, “Oh, I have an entire books worth of poems about my time living in Northern California. Oh, I have an entire books worth of poems about my time living in Los Angeles, and then another for Joshua Tree.” I could see this theme. So then I went back in and added to it. I thought about my core memories of those places and patched in what I thought was missing. With all my books, it's been a similar process of sort of noticing that either there's a theme building up, or there's a collection of poems that are based on place or a certain time in my life. So that's kind of how the choosing happens with this reflection process. Then there's how to know when a poem is done. I work a lot with clients one-on-one who are tryin

How can you plan for success as an indie author even early in your writing career? How can you create multiple streams of income and multiple marketing channels, while still writing your books? Adam Beswick goes into his strategies. In the intro, Kickstarter announces new functionality to help creatives;Watch out for a scam email about ALLi [Writer Beware]; Gary Vaynerchuk on the shifting marketing arena [Marketing Against the Grain Podcast]; Day Trading Attention by Gary Vaynerchuk; Camera free video options [Brave New Bookshelf] Plus, Microsoft Build event with new AI-enabled PCs and Copilot agents [Microsoft]; My thoughts on seeing Hamilton; and Spear of Destiny coming this week! Today's show is sponsored by ProWritingAid, writing and editing software that goes way beyond just grammar and typo checking. With its detailed reports on how to improve your writing and integration with Scrivener, ProWritingAid will help you improve your book before you send it to an editor, agent or publisher. Check it out for free or get 25% off the premium edition at www.ProWritingAid.com/joanna This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Adam Beswick is the best-selling author of the Levanthria series which has taken readers on epic journeys from corner to corner of the world. While mastering the craft of fantastical storytelling, Adam simultaneously embraces the rewarding challenges of family life as well as being an authorpreneur. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Setting the foundation for your author business Having the confidence to financially invest in yourself Wrestling with the “importance” of choosing a writing career Creating multiple streams of income Overcoming the initial fear of creating video marketing content Staying consistent with your TikTok marketing and growing your viewership How to diversify away from reliance on any single platform You can find Adam at APBeswickPublications.com. Transcript of Interview with Adam Beswick Joanna: Welcome to the show, Adam. Adam: Hi there. Thanks for having me. Joanna: I'm excited to talk to you. Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and publishing. Adam: Well, I started writing around 2017. I was a mental health nurse, working silly hours in really stressful environments. I absolutely loved my job, but I needed a bit of an outlet at the end of my day. I started writing bedtime stories for my children. Then it was my eldest daughter who challenged me to write a proper story, as she said at the time. I was joking with her that by the time I've written it, you'll probably be old enough to read it. Lo and behold, two and a half or three years later, I had a story that was written. I'd published my first book, which was Arnold Ethon and The Lions of Tsavo, which is now known as the Spirit Beast Series, as I've rebranded that story last year. So that's really how I got into writing. I wrote a couple of books in that series, they were kind of YA urban fantasy. It was a bit confusing what genre it was in. Then I spent the next two years figuring out how to actually publish them. I was listening to all your podcasts, listening to Jenna Moreci, Bethany Atazadeh, and quite a few different indie authors to get hints and tips on how to publish those books. It wasn't really until 2022, when I pivoted and released a new book in a new series, which was A Forest of Vanity and Valour, which was a dark fantasy retelling inspired by Robin Hood, that my career started taking off. Joanna: Oh, so interesting. So first of all, I love that you come from healthcare. I mean, as a mental health nurse, I feel like you bring an attitude of caring from that job. I've seen you speak, and I think that comes through in the way you are in the community, which I really appreciate. I wanted to ask you about how you went full time as an indie author in 2023, and we're recording this in 2024. So this is a big decision. So you left that job, and— Can you just tell us how you made the decision to leave the job and how you've dealt with that shift? I know it's a big deal. Adam: So the hardest part was convincing my wife that it was a stable career choice to be making. So, yes, throughout 2022, my books' trajectory started increasing. It was late 2022 when I sat down with Mrs. Beswick and kind of laid out the financials and told her my intention that I really wanted to go full time. I did really enjoy my job. I was in a band 7 post in the NHS in a complex care commissioning team, which I did really enjoy. I had a good sense of purpose, but the hours compared to the time it was allowing me to write and keep on track of everything for my indie author side that was really gathering momentum made it quite difficult to juggle the two. Luckily, I managed to convince Mrs. Beswick that it was a good idea for me to go full-time. I think it was the 14th of February 2023 that I was able to leave that role in the complex care team in the CCG and become a full-time indie author. It was something that was incredible. I never thought it would ever happen. So 2023 was more about working on my foundations which I had been putting into place in 2022. So making sure the foundations were right, and that that way I could progress and move into my 2024 plan, which was around growth. So 2023, my primary focus was getting into a good routine, a healthy routine. I was making sure I was still being able to write books that people would enjoy, as well as planning far enough ahead to make sure there's plenty to look forward to keep me motivated as well. Joanna: Well, on that, let's dig a bit more on what is working on foundations. You mentioned there a healthy routine and some planning, but— Give us a sense of what foundations you were working on. Adam: Okay, so the entire time before I went full time, in 2022 when A Forest of Vanity and Valour first started taking off, I had to learn fast with the networking side. What I mean by that is kind of replying to feedback and emails and comments on social media from readers and trying to build that engaged audience. So 2022 and 2023, there was a really big focus on building those platforms and working on my newsletter. Making sure that my business was set up correctly has been absolutely key. As we're all indie authors, our focus a lot of the time is just on writing the books. What we actually forget is writing the books is only a part of that indie author career. We've got to be marketing experts, and there's so many different hats that we have to wear, that one of the factors there as well was making sure that the business side was set up. At first it’s quite overwhelming, but making sure that you're set up for success from the beginning is absolutely key so that you're not caught chasing your tail. Joanna: Well on that, again, you come from healthcare, so how did you learn how to set up a business correctly? I mean, I worked in business, and I ran my own businesses, so that's always been easier for me because I had that experience. So how did you learn that? How did you make sure you had the right [business] setup? Adam: So as a nurse, one of the things that is drilled into you from the first day of your training is to be a reflective practitioner. A lot of those skills that I've kind of adapted as a nurse, I've transferred into my indie author career. So that reflexive practice is something that I've always done. Seeing what's working, what can I change? If I were in that situation again, what could I do differently? How could I improve my responses? Running the business is very much the same. You're not always going to get it perfect, but you have to be susceptible to feedback and being able to adapt, and be quick on your feet and pivot if things aren't going correctly. What I made sure I was doing is that I got a good accountant that was able to advise me very well on how to adapt and change as my business continued to grow. So for example, going from a sole trader to a limited company, how to set that up to go into being VAT registered. There's a lot of background stuff that can be quite overwhelming if you haven't got the right circle of people around you. So in having a good accountant, they were able to explain everything to me, answer any questions that I might have. Obviously, I work more and more with them as my books have done better and better, as I've needed more and more support on certain elements of the business. Joanna: I love that you did that because I also did that when I decided to leave my job as a consultant and do this. I planned to be successful, and I made a business plan for a six-figure business. It was something that is actually very rare, so well done for doing that. Now for people listening who are like, “Whoa, Adam did that quite quickly.” So how do you have the confidence—since you started in 2017, really, but 2022 was when it really took off— How do you have the confidence to spend the money on things like an accountant earlier on in the career when you don't necessarily know that things are going to carry on growing? There are people listening who just don't know how they can make that step, I guess. So any tips around that? Adam: So first and foremost, I invested in myself. It was easy to do when I was earning a full-time wage. Obviously, my time was spread a lot thinner, but when I was still working full time as a nurse, I had an income that covered all my bills. So any extra income I was making through my books, I could just reinvest straight back into the business. So while I wasn't full time, and still had th

How can you outline a story based on a ‘thought dump' and interweave genre tropes you love to create a successful book? How can you use video marketing to reach more readers, even if you are an introvert? Jenna Moreci gives her tips. In the intro, my new ProWritingAid tutorial; Embracing change and starting over [Wish I'd Known Then Podcast]; OpenAI released ChatGPT 4o; Using 4o as a tutor [Khan Academy]; Claude 3 now in Europe; Google IO announcements including Search impact [The Verge; My episode on impact of generative search; Hard Fork Podcast; Platformer]; Spear of Destiny Kickstarter, and my deadlift PB. Today's podcast sponsor is Findaway Voices, which gives you access to the world's largest network of audiobook sellers and everything you need to create and sell professional audiobooks. Take back your freedom. Choose your price, choose how you sell, choose how you distribute audio. Check it out at FindawayVoices.com. This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Jenna Moreci is the bestselling author of dark fantasy romance, The Savior's Series, and books for authors including Shut Up and Write the Book: A Step-by-Step Guide to Crafting Your Novel From Plan to Print. She's also a YouTuber at Writing with Jenna Moreci, with over 300,000 subscribers. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Structuring and outlining — utilizing the “thought dump” The planning process for including tropes in your book How long should an outline be? Conquering fears and distractions to get words on the page Researching publishing options as a first time author Getting comfortable in front of the camera through trial and error How to build a channel around a fiction author business Different goals of short form and longer form video marketing You can find Jenna at JennaMoreci.com or on her YouTube channel Writing with Jenna. Transcript of Interview with Jenna Moreci Joanna: Jenna Moreci is the bestselling author of dark fantasy romance, The Savior's Series, and books for authors including Shut Up and Write the Book: A Step-by-Step Guide to Crafting Your Novel From Plan to Print. She's also a YouTuber at Writing with Jenna Moreci, with over 300,000 subscribers. So, welcome to the show, Jenna Jenna: Thank you so much for having me. It is such an honor to be here. Joanna: I'm excited to talk to you. First up— Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and publishing. Jenna: Well, how I got into writing, it's literally been my lifelong dream ever since I was a child. I've wanted to be a writer since I was six years old. So it, quite literally, is a childhood dream fulfilled. With my first job after college, I was a stockbroker. Which is just like writing, right? It is exactly the same thing, you know, dealing with finances. So similar to writing. Basically, I was working full time in finance, and I really, really, really just did not enjoy it. I had this moment where I thought, you know what, this is going to be my life. I'm going to be trading stocks forever, and I can't do it. So I thought I would, at the very least, give writing a shot since that was my dream, and I had been writing stories my whole life on the side. So I figured I would go ahead and try to write a book and see how it did. My goal was for it to be a lucrative side gig, something that made my life feel fulfilling while I paid the bills working in finance. Then along the way, things happened. My partner suffered a major accident, so I had to quit my job so I could sign on to be his caregiver and help him recover from the accident. During that time, I started my YouTube channel. I started it on a whim because a lot of people told me that I would be good at YouTube. It wasn't something I was really interested in because, like a lot of authors, I'm an introvert. I did not want my face on the internet, but I gave it a shot. My goal was 100 subscribers, and nearly 300,000 subscribers later, at some point, it blew up. Due to the YouTube channel blowing up, my first novel sold well enough that I was able to make writing a full-time job. Now at this point in my life, I'm on my fifth and sixth novel, and I write and do YouTube full time. I never thought that this would be where my life was headed, but here we are. Joanna: I love that. Obviously, we have some similarities. My job before this was in accounts payable, and I used to implement systems. So it was a similar feeling of I just cannot do this for the rest of my life. So lots to come back on there. I've been through your book, so we'll start with the writing process, and then we'll get back into YouTube and business. So you talk about structure and outlining in your book, and I'm a discovery writer, so I'm always absolutely fascinated by outlining. Can you talk about how you structure and outline your dark fantasy romances? Jenna: Well, the very first thing I do is what I call the thought dump. It is basically brainstorming, but thought dumping just feels like a more accurate picture. Basically, I just write down any and all ideas that I have for the story. It doesn't need to be in any specific order, and it doesn't need to be in any kind of structure. It's just any possible idea that I have. It could be streams of dialogue, it could be world building elements, it could be a fight scene, it could be a kiss scene, it doesn't matter. Once I feel like I have exhausted all of my ideas for that moment, then I start going through the ideas. Then I start finding the ones where it's like, “Oh, this kind of sucks, we're not going to use this one,” or, “Oh, this one is workable. This feels like it could be a plot point,” or, “This feels like it could be the dark night of the soul,” or something like that. I start trying to find the gems within the dump. Once I get to that point, it's sort of like piecing together a puzzle. I actually call it the puzzle phase, which is where I take the gems that I found in the thought dump and categorize them into specific plot points, like the first kiss, or the inciting incident, or different pieces of the rising action. You can do this digitally, you can use some kind of software to do this. I like the physical feeling of doing this. So I usually do it with sticky notes and a poster board. I will write down the plot points on the sticky notes and just rearrange them on the poster board until they fit some kind of realistic structure or sequence. At that point, there's going to be tons of holes because your thought dump is not going to be flawless. It's going to be incredibly flawed. So at that point, I start trying to fill in the hole. So it's like I've got two pieces of the rising action, but I need more of a mini climax, or I need a greater crisis or something like that. I start trying to figure out how can I piece point A to point C. Where's the point B in the middle? So that's also part of the whole puzzle aspect. For me, it's fun figuring out how I can make all of these points combine together. Once I feel like I have a very full flow in terms of the structure and outline of the story, I start dividing it into chapters. I look for natural breaks, where it's like this would be a great cliffhanger. I like to make sure that my chapters begin and end on very opposite emotional tones. So maybe if the chapter begins in a really happy way, I want it to end in a sad, scary, angry way, just something that's very different from how it started. So I look for those shifts within the post it notes, essentially, and I start dividing it into chapters. Once I have that structure down, that's when I actually start the outline, and I'll start typing it up. I will take elements from the thought dump that haven't been utilized but I still really enjoy, and I will find places to shove those elements in. Maybe there's a big conversation that I want the two lovebirds to have, and I'm like, oh, it would fit really, really well in this particular scene. So it's just about taking the thought dump, breaking it down into its most basic pieces, and then once those pieces all fit together perfectly, adding in all of the extra fluff and details, everything that kind of makes the story shine. Joanna: You have videos about tropes on your channel. I mean, I often look at my books later and go, “Oh, that's that trope,” where I discovery wrote it, and it ended up there. Do you look at the tropes of romance, and then you make sure that they go into that outline? Jenna: I'm a little bit like you and a little bit like planning that way. For me, the discovery aspect of writing is the character arc. I know where I want my characters to head, but I don't necessarily know how they're going to feel about it as the story progresses. So that's what's really fun for me is watching the transition of my characters starting off as this one type of character and ending another way. Like, how do they feel about that? How did they get to that point? So a lot of tropes revolve around character development. So those tropes for me are always like, “Oh, look where we ended up. This is great.” For example, my character, Tobias, he starts off at the beginning of the book kind of a cinnamon roll, naive, doesn't really know politics and things like that. By the end of the book, he ended up being quite morally gray. Morally gray is an on-trend character type right now, and it's considered a popular trope in romanticized books. It wasn't something that I had originally planned, but here we are, now Tobias is a morally gray character. Then there are other tropes where it's just that I'm such a huge fan of the trope

How can you blend ‘work for hire', ghostwriting, and being an indie author into a successful hybrid career writing books for children? Aubre Andrus gives her tips. In the intro, Countdown Pages on FindawayVoices by Spotify; the impact of AI narrated audiobooks on Audible [Bloomberg]; Ideas for short fiction anthologies and Kevin J. Anderson's Kickstarter; Penguin Random House launches internal ChatGPT tool for employees [Publishers Lunch]; 2024 is the year AI at work gets real [Microsoft]. Plus, reasons for the new theme music, licensed from AudioJungle for 10m downloads (the podcast is up to 9.7 million with the old tune); and planning for my Kickstarter launch for Spear of Destiny. This podcast is sponsored by Kobo Writing Life, which helps authors self-publish and reach readers in global markets through the Kobo eco-system. You can also subscribe to the Kobo Writing Life podcast for interviews with successful indie authors. This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Aubre Andrus is an award-winning children's author with more than 50 books, as well as being a ghostwriter and former American Girl magazine editor. Her books, The Look Up Series, feature women in STEM careers. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes The background of the American Girl brand Pros and cons of work for hire and ghostwriting Work for hire best practices to make it worth the money Differences in work for hire contracts and payment models How to seek out work for hire projects Using lessons learned from past projects in your own series Creative control over content and marketing a self-published author Marketing self-published children's books You can find Aubre at AubreAndrus.com. Transcript of Interview with Aubre Andrus Joanna: Aubre Andrus is an award-winning children's author with more than 50 books, as well as being a ghostwriter and former American Girl Magazine editor. Her books, The Look Up Series, center around women in STEM careers. So welcome to the show. Aubre. Aubre: Thank you so much for having me. Joanna: I'm excited to talk about this today. So first up— Tell us a bit more about you, how you got into writing children's books originally, and how you started out in work for hire. Aubre: So I started at a kids' magazine right out of college. If anyone is familiar, the company was American Girl. So they publish magazines, books, and also have an extensive doll collection that's very popular in the US. So while I was working at the magazine, I noticed the book department next door and all the wonderful books they were creating that I had also read as a child. I learned that they were developing all of their concepts in house, and then just hiring authors to execute those ideas. I also learned that a lot of them were former magazine editors. So it was interesting to me that one day, perhaps, I could leave the magazine and then pitch myself to become one of these authors. So that is what I did. It was interesting because American Girl was based in Middleton, Wisconsin, in the US. That's very much in the Midwest, not near New York City publishing. So we're very much an island separate from any other type of children's publishing, like the industry. So even though I got my foot in the door in publishing books, I was still kind of stuck. Like, uh oh, is there any way I can expand this anymore? Do other publishers in New York do this also? I had no idea. I just started networking at children's book conferences, and frankly, just blindly reaching out to people and saying, “Hey, do you offer any work for hire projects? I've done a couple. I'm interested in doing more.” So I was able to slowly build up that work for hire career. Joanna: I have a few questions about this. So first of all, I have been in of the American Girls stores in New York. So I am aware of this, but I know some listeners won't be. So can you maybe just talk a bit about that? I was just fascinated. It did seem to be more modern as in it wasn't just really old school stuff, there were more modern female role models, I guess. I mean, that's what the worry is with these older IP brands, is that they have an old, outdated version of what women are. Talk about how these IP brands work, and if people don't even know what American Girl is. Aubre: So it started as kind of like an heirloom doll company from a former teacher and textbook author. So she was really like an educational entrepreneur. So she was sort of not interested in Barbie for her nieces, and she was trying to create something better, in her mind's eye. So she developed this line of three dolls that were historical characters that then also had a series of six books that accompanied them. It basically was teaching girls what it was like to be a girl back in time. You know, so what was it like to grow up during World War Two? What was like to grow up as an immigrant coming to the US for the first time? Then it kind of expanded from there, the historical doll collection. Then it really ballooned into just creating contemporary content for girls. That's what I was a part of at the magazine, which was just like a lifestyle magazine for 8- to 12-year-old girls. Similar to at the time there was Nickelodeon Magazine, Disney Magazine, Highlights Magazine, like in that same vein, but specifically targeted about girlhood and for girls in that 8 to 12 age range. Then from there spun the contemporary line of books, and a lot of like crafts, and activity, and recipe, and slumber parties, and just anything that kind of celebrates that girlhood from ages 8 to 12. Then the dolls also then became more contemporary, a line of dolls that looked like you. Joanna: Like customized content. Aubre: Yes, and that's really where the company stands today. The historical characters, I think maybe girls today aren't as interested in them, but there is the line of dolls that look like you and you can dress. They have partnerships with Harry Potter and anything you can imagine, so it's quite a fun company. I loved it as a kid, so it was amazing for me to work there as a grown up. Joanna: I mean, as business people, we have to think this way. I feel like so often because we are, and the listeners, we're authors first, we're books first, and I think we forget that there's so many other things. Brands like American Girl, they're good examples. Even if no one is interested in that particular type of thing, the business model is great. I mean, obviously, Barbie does it so well as, as well. So I do like this idea of thinking further than just a book, even if, of course, we're not going to grow a whole empire like this. You mentioned it was separate from New York publishing. Did you almost feel like sort of second rate? I don't want to use that word, but you know what I mean. Did you find that difficult? Aubre: I did. I mean, we were so isolated from New York publishing. I think, you know, this isn't an offense to anyone who's working there, I think they would all agree. Some of them have gone on to work for more like New York City publishers, and it is more fast paced, and it's just different. We sort of had our own little bubble and had our lovely little pace, and we were creating amazing stuff for kids. So I felt like I knew American Girl publishing, but I did not necessarily know children's book publishing. So it was a little intimidating to dive into that. Joanna: Yes, and on that, I mean, you mentioned networking and going to conferences. I still remember how it felt as a newly self-published author, to feel kind of second rate, to feel looked down upon, to feel like I was a second-class citizen. I imagine you kind of felt that way when you were networking and at conferences. How did you get through that mindset in order to meet people at these conferences? Aubre: Well, I mean, I felt that way, that second rate way, in so many ways, because A, I had only done publishing in Middleton, Wisconsin, and then B, I was doing middle grade, which at the time was not hot, not sexy. Everyone was doing YA. Then I was also doing nonfiction, which also is not fiction, which is where most people want to be. Then also, I was doing work for hires, I wasn't even developing the concepts myself. So there were so many reasons why I felt like a second-rate author. Like, am I a real author? I don't know. So for a while there, I really second guessed myself. Then I just kind of had to get over it like that. I started working with really amazing brands, like National Geographic Kids and Disney. I mean, these are amazing, and people would kill to have these opportunities. So I just really started embracing work for hire. I get to work on so many fun projects for really amazing brands and IP, and that's really cool. So, yes, I just had to kind of mindset shift. Joanna: You gave yourself like a talking to and said, make the most of it. Aubre: Yes. Joanna: I do think it has to be a mindset shift if people feel that way. Like you mentioned, whether it's the type of publishing you do or whether it's the type of genre you're writing. What's so funny, I think, with the self-publishing world, is that the romance writers in old school publishing were always looked down upon. People who wrote romance were considered sort of lesser in some way. Now, it's very clear, and it always has been true I think, but before it wasn't so known that they make so much money and they prop up basically the rest of the industry. Aubre: Exactly. I mean, it blows my mind if anyone ever looks down upon romance. It is the industry, and they are so savvy. I actually keep quite an eye on the romanc

How can you use automation and tools to help you streamline your creative and business processes so you can get back to the writing? Chelle Honiker gives some mindset and practical tips. In the intro, IBPA guide to publishing models; We need to talk about independence [Self Publishing Advice article; my podcast episode with Orna Ross]; The Financial Times signs a partnership deal with OpenAI [FT]; The Big Leap — Gay Hendricks; AI Tools on Brave New Bookshelf; Spear of Destiny; Stone Hunters by Rod Penn; Today's show is sponsored by Draft2Digital, self-publishing with support, where you can get free formatting, free distribution to multiple stores, and a host of other benefits. Just go to www.draft2digital to get started. This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Chelle Honiker is the co-founder and publisher of Indie Author Magazine, Indie Author Training, Indie Author Tools, and Direct2Readers.com. She's also an author, speaker, podcaster, and program manager at the Author Nation Conference. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Finding a community with other indie authors Blocks that might stop authors from using technology effectively How to figure out which tools work best for your creative process and author business Moving into new and reinvented processes as technology changes Using Zapier to automate your author business When to use a tool vs. when to outsource a task What to expect in the upcoming Author Nation Conference You can find Chelle at ChelleHoniker.com, IndieAuthorMagazine.com, IndieAuthorTraining.com, and AuthorNation.live. Transcript of Interview with Chelle Honiker Joanna: Chelle Honiker is the co-founder and publisher of Indie Author Magazine, Indie Author Training, Indie Author Tools, and Direct2Readers.com. She's also an author, speaker, podcaster, and program manager at the Author Nation Conference. So welcome to the show, Chelle. Chelle: Thanks, Joanna. It's good to be here. Joanna: So first up— Tell us a bit more about your background and how you decided to build businesses to help indie authors. Chelle: Sure. Actually, you're a little bit at fault for this, so I'll explain that. My background is that I started in the travel industry. I was a technology and training professional for many, many years. I had my own consultancy for a very long time. In 2016/2017, I was in Austin, Texas, and I went to a bunch of meetings for NaNoWriMo. I met just the most vibrant authors there, and we got connected. Then I went to the Smarter Artist Summit, and I met those guys. At that conference, I met Craig Martelle, who then went on to start 20Booksto50k conferences. I went to the 20Booksto50k conference in Edinburgh in 2019. At that conference, I met my business partner, Alice Briggs, who coincidentally also lives in Texas, but nine hours away because it's a ginormous state. We had to go all the way to Scotland to meet. When we came back as accountability partners, we had a group of friends that we'd met at that conference. Then I went to the SPF Conference where you spoke. I actually went to London to hear you speak, so that's where you thread in here. Then we all know what happened in 2020, the whole world shut down in the middle of that conference. So I was in Ireland for four months, sort of “stranded.” I say “stranded” in air quotes because I wasn't really stranded, but I had decided to stay over there because my airline went bankrupt, and it was just going to be really difficult to get back. My townhouse was up for a lease again, and it was just a whole mess. So I stayed in Ireland, and I sort of put up a bat signal for friends to write with. We had 24 of us that started to Zoom together twice a day. We were sharing tips and tricks, and things that we were doing, and courses we were taking, and podcasts we were listening to, and sharing our lives on top of that. So we would hear about what was going on in Germany, and Albania, and Malta, and just all over the world. All of us were from everywhere around the world. From that, we started a website called Indie Author Tools, which was really just sort of a crowdsource place for us to stick everything. Then when I came back to the States, Alice and I separately had been thinking about starting a magazine or something that would provide more context for all of the stuff that we were learning, and a way for us to dive in a little bit deeper. So with those original 24 people, we started the magazine three years ago. We're three, we turned three! Joanna: That SPF Conference, as you say, that almost didn't happen. James, kind of as a joke, wore a hazmat suit on stage. Then lockdown happened very soon after. So, I mean, that's kind of crazy. As you were talking now, I was wondering— Do you identify as an introvert or are you an extrovert? Chelle: So I'm an ambivert, actually. I'm like right smack in the middle of it. It just depends, so I'm an equal part of both. It's funny though because I lean more towards introvert, like I'm technically an INTJ. Robert Downey Jr. and I are both INTJ. I can get excited about being around people, but then I have to retreat. Joanna: You're quite a connector, obviously, because you create things that are bigger than you. I really admire that. This is something I struggle with. I always had the feedback at school and in my jobs, like, “does not play well with others,” or “needs to be a better team member.” I'm just not very good at that. So I really appreciate what you're doing. I mean, you're creating much bigger things than just an individual person. Chelle: Well, I love that you recognize that, but I also have to say I have an amazing group of friends and team members. So it's me that sort of says things, but there's a lot of crazy ideas that come from a lot of different places. I'm just a number one activator, so I synthesize and distill the crazy ideas that everybody has into something else. So I'm very aware that I'm surrounded by genius all day, every day. I get up and play with my best friends every day as a job, like that's the greatest thing ever. Joanna: I love that, and we all need that. The author community would literally have no conferences without people like you. Chelle: It's so funny because this is such a generous industry, and there are so many people that sort of step up and say, hey, I'm going to do this. It's probably one of the most interesting—just from looking at it from the business perspective, from the outside looking in, it is still a small industry, so to speak. Everybody sort of knows everybody, but it's so generous, and people are so supportive. There's not a lot of cutthroat competition for business like there is in other industries. I think the coolest thing that I see is that we're not in competition to sell a product with one another. Authors aren't competing with one another to sell books, in the strictest sense. We all have our end product as a happy, satisfied reader. They don't buy one book, they buy multiple books. So it's very different than other industries, and it's so unique. I think it's why we stick around and have such success in the industry, in terms of satisfaction, in terms of wanting to keep doing things. We're not getting beaten up continuously by a zero-sum game or market forces that force us to be mean or cutthroat. It's just a very different industry, and I love it. I absolutely love it. Joanna: Well, that's fantastic. I agree with you. I feel like we definitely do not compete in terms of books and readers, but we do compete on things like ad spend, and pay per click, and all of that kind of thing, but that's quite different. So I do want to talk to you particularly about technology and tools. You mentioned Indie Author Tools. I do see that a lot of authors get enthusiastic around notebooks, and pens, and some writing software, but mostly a lot of authors struggle with using technology and tools to improve their process. They often will kind of shy away from spending even very little money for a tool that will help them. So I wondered— What are the biggest blocks you see to authors using technology effectively? Chelle: I think there's two that I see. The first is overwhelm because we're responsible for doing all the things, #allthethings. We're responsible for writing the book, and then also making sure it's edited, and making sure that it's got a great blurb, and got a great cover, and got things that are on brand, and then we have to be responsible for marketing. So I think just in the sense of that's— The opportunity of an indie author is to be in control of your career, but it's also the overwhelm that comes with it. Especially as creatives, I hear a lot of people say, “I just want to write the book.” I mean, you just can't. This is an industry that requires that you be an entrepreneur and requires that you take charge of your career. So if you reframe it as an opportunity, it gets a little less overwhelming, but the first is overwhelm, and the second is time. I think that's probably the biggest factor is people don't feel like they've got time to adopt it, or there's too much that they have to think about. It's just where do you start? Those are the two biggest obstacles, but I think that if you reframe it as an opportunity to learn something new, and you reframe it as an opportunity to market yourself, and get excited about your books, and get excited about sharing your books. If you think of marketing and technology as tools to do that, rather than the next thing you ‘have to do,' then I think that makes a big difference in terms of mindset. Joann

How can you connect to readers in a way that is sustainable for you and effective at selling books? How can you choose the best platform when there are so many options? Dan Blank gives his recommendations. In the intro, TikTok ban signed into law in the USA [The Verge]; No One Buys Books [Elle Griffin]; Please stop bashing book publishing [Publishing Confidential]; The Hotsheet; Books sell, but book doesn't [Seth Godin]. Plus, my new podcast logo; Spear of Destiny finishing energy, artist's date at Salisbury Cathedral. Today's show is sponsored by my patrons! Join my community and get access to extra videos on writing craft, author business, AI and behind the scenes info, plus an extra Q&A show a month where I answer Patron questions. It's about the same as a black coffee a month! Join the community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn Dan Blank helps authors develop a human-centered approach to marketing through his book, Be the Gateway: A Practical Guide to Sharing Your Creative Work and Engaging an Audience, as well as his podcast, The Creative Shift, and his coaching and consultancy services at WeGrowMedia.com. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Learning how to feel good about sharing and marketing Keeping the human connection while scaling our reach Deciding what platform is best for your style of marketing Differences between the “daily work” and launch marketing Marketing later books in a series Advantages of Substack to get your newsletter discovered Balancing social engagement with the work of writing books You can find Dan at WeGrowMedia.com and DanBlank.Substack.com. Transcript of Interview with Dan Blank Joanna: Dan Blank helps authors develop a human-centered approach to marketing through his book, Be the Gateway: A Practical Guide to Sharing Your Creative Work and Engaging an Audience, as well as his podcast, The Creative Shift, and his coaching and consultancy services at WeGrowMedia.com. Welcome back to the show, Dan. Dan: Thank you for having me back. It's always such a pleasure. Joanna: Now you were last on the show in 2017. It's kind of a long, long time ago now. So some people might not have heard about you. Tell us a bit more about you and your background in publishing, and also what your business looks like now. Dan: Yes, thank you. So I work with writers every day. This is the full-time work I've done since around 2010. Everything I focus on is really around the idea of author platform, author branding, author marketing, book launches. For me, I've really come to embrace this idea of what I call human-centered marketing. This is, to me, helping writers get past some of the biggest things that stop them, which is self-censorship. This is in terms of not knowing how to share, not knowing how to feel good about marketing, not really understanding all these core aspects of what it means to embrace the idea of being a writer, of feeling good about sharing, of knowing how to use marketing and launch tactics in a way that are very effective, but also make you feel good about the idea of sharing your work. This is opposed to how a lot of writers feel about it, which is they kind of put it off and they say, “Well, I'm going to put my marketing hat on on this specific date. Then I'm taking my marketing hat off as quickly as I can.” So I've done this since 2010 full-time. I work with writers every single day. Of course, I've had a blog and newsletter since before that time. I'm going on 19 years of a weekly email newsletter. I'm sure we'll talk about how I'm on Substack now, and I really appreciate that venue. Like you, I've been out there for just years and years on social media and author events, just connecting with writers and readers and embracing all of the cool, weird ways that we get to share what we do. Joanna: Yes, well, a few things there. Actually, I think you and I met on Twitter, as it was back then. Dan: Isn't that funny? Joanna: It's funny because, like many people, I kind of wound down my usage last year. I've actually now got back on, and I'm pretending it's a completely different platform. So I am now on X, @thecreativepenn, which was my old handle on the old system of Twitter. I was thinking about this, and I was actually on X, and I saw this thread by an author. It said, “I hate marketing. I never want to do it. It's scammy, and sucky, and only for people with no morals and no ethics. It's awful. I don't want to push my book at anyone.” I was reading this going, okay then, that's really interesting. You used the words “feel good about sharing.” So how can authors reframe this, any kind of negativity they feel about this? How can we get to the point of feeling good about marketing? Dan: I'm 51 years old, and what I love about being the age that I am is that I very much grew up and remember the era before the internet being everything. So I used to manage a bookstore cafe, I grew up as an artist, my wife is an incredible artist, and most of my friends over the years have been performers and creators of some sort or another. To me it is just a beautiful thing that people are able to write. When I look back at the totality of my life, when I think back to a bookstore in the 1990s, or a literary salon, invariably it is this idea of surrounding yourself with people who care about the themes that you write about, who appreciate writing and art and creativity. Sharing is not a negative thing. The idea of you having written and you showing up and knowing how to talk to people about this, feeling proud about it in some normal way, of feeling that you are moving within circles of people who care about creative work, who care about what you create and what other people create and vice versa. That is something that I feel is very natural. It's a natural part of the creative process. One thing I often will say and think about is that — What we create is complete when it reaches another person. That if you write a book, half of it is, of course, your life experience, the craft, everything you put into that story. But if I read that book, I'm reading it from a very specific standpoint of my own needs, my own fears, my own life experience. How I interpret these characters in these situations, how I see myself in this story, how a certain character reminds me of my grandfather, these are things that you could never imagine. Through those two things coming together is the magic of art. That's something that is almost co-created in a way. That's inherently about that work being shared. To me, when we look at it through a lens like this, sharing your work becomes a very natural part of creating it. Not that you are interrupting, not that you're walking into a room of people and saying, “Everyone stop! I've got a book!” and you've got some glowing sign. It's the idea that you might walk into that same room and talk with people and say, “Well, I'm working on a new chapter for my book,” and you talk about the themes. Then people are like, “Really?!” You've experienced this certainly a million times throughout your life. I think that's something with a lot of people, they write privately. It is a private part of their life separate from their role in their family, separate from their job. So it's harder for them to think about sharing it in a natural way because it starts isolated, and people define them as everything else first. As you get comfortable in knowing how to talk about your work and knowing how to think about who your readers are, I think it becomes more natural. Then the idea of thinking of marketing, not as a horrible thing that must be done to interrupt people, it becomes a much more natural part of what it means to be a writer who's living a fulfilling life as a writer. Joanna: Yes, you have these key principles that shaped your approach. One of these is connecting to a person, not “an audience,” in inverted commas, like a market, or whatever the big words. I feel like we're in this difficult tension between deep connection, and some of the things you said are great. You know, we can work, like you said, if you're in a bookstore, with a person in a cafe, or whatever, but they also seem unscalable. We need to sell enough books to make marketing worthwhile. With books, there's low profit in terms of how much money most people make per book. So we do need to think marketing at scale. So where's the sweet spot? How do we keep the connection but also the scale? Dan: I think there's always this middle ground that we don't talk enough about. This goes back to traditional marketing, and this is like my total obsession. So I do like talking about the very classic idea of a marketing funnel. It is sort of fuddy duddy and old-fashioned a lot of ways, but I find it to be really useful. To me, if we think about the concept of marketing funnel, you imagine an inverted pyramid. At the top is the wide top where people become aware of your work, and somewhere in the middle people become interested. Then they might actually take a step to buy one of your books or get on your newsletter list. Then they finally buy something, they actually read the book, and then they review it, they advocate, they do word of mouth marketing, they buy your next book. Think about moving through that funnel from very wide to very specific. All of these ideas are really helpful to think that if we get exposure, and let's say it's on TikTok for a certain kind of author or it's a speaking event, that is just the first step. The other step is the people who then come up to you after that talk and ask a question. Then it's the idea of them taking your card

How can you build a creative, sustainable career as a ‘mid-list' indie author? How can you design a business that works for you and your books over the long term? T. Thorn Coyle explains more in this episode. In the intro, BookVault bespoke printing options; Harper Collins partners with Eleven Labs for AI-narrated non-English audiobooks [Publishing Perspectives]; AI Publishing Formula Podcast; Brave New Bookshelf Podcast; “I’m not worried about AI, because I got my mojo working.” Stephen King; Today's show is sponsored by ProWritingAid, writing and editing software that goes way beyond just grammar and typo checking. With its detailed reports on how to improve your writing and integration with Scrivener, ProWritingAid will help you improve your book before you send it to an editor, agent or publisher. Check it out for free or get 25% off the premium edition at www.ProWritingAid.com/joanna This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  T. Thorn Coyle is the author of paranormal mystery, urban fantasy, alt history, epic fantasy, as well as nonfiction around magical practice. Their latest book is The Midlist Indie Author Mindset. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes What does it mean to be a mid-list author? How being weird can help you connect as more human Finding your sense of weird and letting it shine in your work Making marketing about connection and finding what works for you Marketing for Kickstarter in a short-term promotional window Tips for managing multiple Kickstarters per year Keeping readers engaged with your newsletter and social media Creating a tagline that portrays the message of your author business You can find Thorn at ThornCoyle.com, and the Kickstarter for The Midlist Indie Author Mindset here. Transcript of Interview with Thorn Coyle Joanna: T. Thorn Coyle is the author of paranormal mystery, urban fantasy, alt history, epic fantasy, as well as nonfiction around magical practice. Their latest book is The Midlist Indie Author Mindset. So welcome back to the show, Thorn. Thorn: Thanks so much. It's great to be back. Joanna: Yes, I know. I had a look, and it's been six years since you were last on the show. Thorn: That's a long time, especially in the indie publishing world. Joanna: Yes. I mean, we're old school, which probably means we met like a decade ago! Thorn: Yes, probably. Joanna: Which is so funny. So let's assume people haven't listened to our episode from six years ago, and also, things have moved on. Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and publishing. Thorn: Well, I was one of those people, you know, I've written since I was a tiny child, probably age five or six. I wrote poetry, I did journalism as a teenager, wrote for tattoo magazines in the 80s and 90s, and really wanted to write fiction. I would practice writing fiction, and then I finally just gave up. I was the classic, I would labor over a short story for a year, and I would stall out three quarters into a novel. I loved writing nonfiction also. That was easier for me, less of a challenge. So I got my first nonfiction major traditional publishing contract 20 years ago. I sold a book to Penguin, and I gave up fiction and focused on nonfiction, and traveling the world, and teaching for two decades. Then fiction came back. Some characters showed up in my head one day, and I started writing fiction, and I started studying craft. Then I started seriously indie publishing, I decided I didn't want to go trad. My three first nonfiction books were all traditional published. I didn't want to go traditional for fiction because I saw the struggles my friends were having with traditional publishing and my own struggles with traditional publishing. I started seriously indie publishing in 2017, and here we are today. I've got a big catalog now, and I just keep going. Joanna: So what is a big catalog to you? Thorn: I have probably, including short story collections, probably 30 books, which for me is a big catalog. I know for other people, that's a tiny catalog. It might even be more than 30 books now. I fail to keep track. Joanna: I mean, it's also funny because you sounded slightly apologetic about 30 books, and I do this too. It's like, this is ridiculous because there are authors who write two books in their whole life! Thorn: I know people like that. I certainly know a lot of traditional authors who only wrote a couple books. That's great, it's just a hard way to make a living. Joanna: Yes, exactly. So let's get into the book, so The Midlist Indie Author Mindset. I feel like this word “midlist” probably means more in the traditional publishing world. So why don't we start with that. What is the ‘mid-list,' and why use that concept? What does it mean? Thorn: The reason I latched on to the concept of midlist—and you're right, it does come from traditional publishing. So I'll give a little background. In traditional publishing, especially in like the 70s, 80s, and 90s, midlist authors were the bread-and-butter authors. They were middle class. They weren't best sellers, but they put out books people enjoyed year after year after year. They were the backbone of a lot of publishing for a long time. So the bestsellers financed the non-sellers, the poor sellers, but the midlist just kept going, writing books people enjoyed. That slowly faded away as traditional publishing changed. It became harder and harder to make a living as kind of a middle class, midlist author. The other thing about midlist authors is they had a big catalog because they just kept publishing year after year, usually genre fiction of some sort or another. They built up a catalog that people enjoyed, that in traditional publishing is called a backlist. We still use that terminology, but it's not really accurate for indie publishing. In traditional publishing, frontlist is a brand-new book that they push for three months, that's what that means. Backlist is everything else. So we can just call it our catalog because as indie authors, we can relaunch. We can do whatever we want with all those books. They're not going to go away. So I wanted to bring forth this concept of midlist into the indie world because so many people say, well, if I'm not making multiple six figures or seven figures, I'm a failure. I believe it's possible for a lot of people to find ways to make a decent middle class living as writers. It's a lot more attainable and sustainable than some of the tactics and techniques people use to grow to be multi-six, like high six-figure or seven-figure authors. It can feel discouraging, I think, to a lot of people when we see these success stories and think, well, I may as well win the lottery or get struck by lightning. That's how unattainable it feels. I realized in my own life, I had to curtail some of my ambitions because of life circumstances. I realized what I really wanted was a slow, sustainable build and a long, sustainable career. If I can do it, I think a lot of people can do it. Joanna: Yes, absolutely. The problem is the midlist is it's not a very sexy goal! It's not very catchy like, you know, six figure, seven figure. As you say, it's more like the slow build, sustainable living, sustainable lifestyle, and things that actually give us a good life. Sometimes I feel like you have to be careful what you wish for. In the book, you talk a bit about your jet set lifestyle, you know, you used to travel a lot teaching. So what happened to that? When did the romance disappear from that ‘jet set' lifestyle? Thorn: So it was around 12 years ago that I really stopped wanting to travel all the time. I was traveling all over the world constantly, like, sometimes twice a month I was on an airplane. It was wonderful. I met amazing people, I saw amazing places, and I was getting paid to do it. Unbeknownst to me, my undiagnosed chronic illness was getting worse, so that was starting to happen. Also, I was just burning out. I was burning out on having to be this public figure, even though it was in a small sphere. I was burning out on the travel. I'll never forget, one time I came back from a trip, I crawled into bed, and said, “I'm done,” and I still had six months to a year's worth of trips booked. So I just had to get through that time and then recalibrate and figure out what to do. That's when I did my major pivot. It also coincided when those characters showed up, and I started studying fiction again. So yes, I burned out really badly, which I know a lot of people do and need to make career change. So I realized I still had those ambitions, and I took some of my ambitions into the indie writing sphere early on before I realized that was not going to be sustainable. There were things people were doing that were all about the fast build. They were all about the spikes, you know, the huge income right away. I was trying to do that and failing, and I had to reassess and say, okay, what can I actually do? So I slowly figured it out for myself. Joanna: Yes, and what do we want to do as well. It's interesting that the characters came back at the point at which you said you're kind of done with that life. So you opened up space in your mind for that. I talked about this years ago when I made a decision to opt out of my career. I still had five more years of that IT consulting career, but I opted out of the career ladder. So I did what I needed to do to make the money and to do a good job for my boss, but I knew I was leaving. That opened up the potential for what then came next. I feel like a lot of people don't realize that you al

What can authors learn from the adoption of AI into the music industry? What are some of the ways musicians are making money in the fractured creator economy? Tristra Newyear Yeager gives her thoughts in this interview. In the intro, Draft2Digital announced a retail distribution agreement with Fable [D2D]; Kobo launches a new color e-reader [Rakuten Kobo]; Ultimate guide to subscription models [Self-Publishing Advice]; Independence and interdependence [Self-Publishing Advice]; Becca Syme on getting unstuck [Ink in Your Veins]. Plus, Amazon's new AI board member, Andrew Ng [TechCrunch]; AI for Everyone free course; SEO is Dead [Marketing Against the Grain]; My episode on Generative AI Search for Book Discoverability; Yes, Colossal is real, and Spear of Destiny. This podcast is sponsored by Kobo Writing Life, which helps authors self-publish and reach readers in global markets through the Kobo eco-system. You can also subscribe to the Kobo Writing Life podcast for interviews with successful indie authors. This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Tristra Newyear Yeager is the Chief Strategy Officer for Rock Paper Scissors, which provides PR for music innovators. She's also the author of historical fantasy and scientific romance, and the co-host of the Music Tectonics Podcast, which goes beneath the surface of music and technology. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes The current state of AI for musicians — is Suno the ChatGPT for musicians? [Rolling Stone] AI's effect on the stock music industry How authors and musicians can cut through the sea of content, whether human or AI-generated Using AI for discoverability (more in my episode on generative AI search for books here) The fragmenting of the creative economy [MusicX; Bandzoogle] Do fame and awards matter less as metrics get harder to track? Recommendations for selling author merchandise You can find Tristra at NewyearMedia.com Transcript of Interview with Tristra Newyear Yeager Joanna: Tristra Newyear Yeager is the Chief Strategy Officer for Rock Paper Scissors, which provides PR for music innovators. She's also the author of historical fantasy and scientific romance, and the co-host of the Music Tectonics Podcast, which goes beneath the surface of music and technology. Welcome back to the show, Tristra. Tristra: Oh, it's an absolute pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me back, Joanna. Joanna: I'm excited to talk to you today. Now, you were last on the show three years ago. It seems so long ago. It was in March 2021. We actually started talking back then about the potential impact of AI in the music industry. So we're going to start there again today. We're going to start with AI, and things have obviously moved on. You specialize in the music industry. Even in the last week, as we record this, I saw Rolling Stone wrote about suno.ai, the ChatGPT for music. Let's start with the current state of AI for musicians in terms of the opportunities. Let's do the positive ways at first. Tristra: Yes, let's start on the positive. So Suno was a really interesting development, in that it was the first general generative-AI, something akin to ChatGPT or Claude, that could make really, really good, convincing tracks. So no offense to all the other large models out there that can generate music from scratch. Usually, they were really short little sections of just like 45 seconds, and they tended to go off the rails pretty quickly. Suno was a little bit different and sounds a little bit better. Now, if we're going to talk about generative AI for music, it's a little bit different, I would argue, than text because there's a lot of different layers to music production and music creation. So for a long time, we've had AI that could generate melodies using the MIDI format. So that's not really like a full-fledged sound or melody you'd hear, but just like the signals that a synthesizer uses to generate a melody. We could generate lyrics, that's been around for a while. Then one of the most commonly used aspects of AI is in mixing and mastering. So mastering is the final set of tasks we do to make a recorded piece of music sound polished and good. So to get the all the levels right, just add a little bit of extra spark and sort of finalizing of that track. So AI mastering has been around for quite some time and has really taken off. People will use it almost at every stage of recording, in some instances, depending on what kind of music they're making. So in a lot of ways, the stuff that gets the news headlines really recently, isn't the stuff that's really for musicians, I would argue. It's more for people who don't consider themselves musicians, or who struggle to make music, because they just don't have the technical background or the musical training. That's what's really interesting, from our perspective in the music business, is — Maybe we're looking at a future where we have a lot more people creating music. Maybe numbering in the billions instead of the low millions. People who are making stuff for their own purposes, and it may not be the traditional commercial pipeline of recorded music of the past. It may not even be static recorded music. So in terms of the existing AI models and what they can produce, most of us agree that the biggest threat, if we're going to talk about threats. So that's a positive side is the creative. Let's talk about the threats for just a second because they are intertwined. There is some concern about how are we going to manage this sea of content that, you know, we thought things were intense before, what's going to happen now if everyone starts wanting to upload their music to Spotify, or even to a SoundCloud, or other platform? How are we going to ever find stuff that's good? Then there's also this question of a very specific niche in the music business that most of us hear all the time but we may not think about, and that is sync or production music. So that is the music you hear behind an image. AI really could completely upend that world. If an advertiser, or video creator, or an author making a trailer for their book, decides they know exactly what kind of music they want, and they can type in something cool into something like Suno and get a little clip that's licensed and they know they're not going to get any copyright strikes or other legal complications from that, that really changes the game. If it's way, way cheaper than even what exists now, like there are very inexpensive online libraries that have pretty decent music and a lot of different kinds of music, but it won't be as custom and it won't be as expensive, most likely, even at the sort of lower end of the that market. So that is an interesting place. Some people are very concerned about that and some people are really excited. Joanna: Wow. Lots to come back on. Tristra: Just an onslaught of AI news! Joanna: I know, but I think this is good because there's a few things you bring out. So first of all, let's go straight for the stock music piece because we've seen the same thing. Like I use, as someone who has obviously this podcast, I do an image that goes with this podcast that goes on to the YouTube audio and onto the blog. I use images in my newsletter, for example. I use images on social media for ads. I used to pay for a stock photo service. In the last six months with Midjourney and with ChatGPT Plus — the paid version of both of those have commercial licenses — I stopped all my subscriptions to stock photos. So what you're talking about there with stock music that might go behind—oh, so I did license a piece of music from AudioJungle for a book trailer. So what we're basically saying is it may be that with something like Suno or with some other tools that will arrive, or like other tools with video that are looking at generating audio with the video, that we wouldn't necessarily use something like AudioJungle. One of the things you said there was that that is a revenue stream for some musicians. So does that kind of sum up that issue? Tristra: Exactly, and so you'll start to see more and more integrations with platforms like Canva, where you'll have just, “Do you want to generate some music? Okay, what kind of music do you want?” And just as we become a little bit more savvy about how to prompt image generation, I think more and more people will get a little bit more in tune with how to prompt to get the kind of sounds that they like. It is kind of exciting as a music nerd. I want more people to enjoy the pleasures of music nerd-dom! — and that could really bring everybody a little bit closer to like, why does sound affect me, what sounds affect me, what are the names that we give to different sounds or genres or moods? That's kind of an exciting moment for me, personally. Joanna: Possibility. Yes, it's interesting. I had a look at Suno. I don't know if I'm a complete weirdo, but I have very, very sensitive hearing. I spend most of my time listening to rain noise. Very occasionally, I'll listen to some music, mostly from the 90s, like if I'm working out or something, but I don't listen to music much at all. So I am totally hopeless. So I went to Suno AI, and it's like, “Type some words about what type of music you want.” And I'm looking at it going, I literally don't know. So I still think there's this big gap between someone like you who could prompt an AI in a very clear way knowing what they want, and someone like me who has absolutely no clue. I do think that is a gap between those who know the language to create music and those who don't (

How can you overcome your fears and make a life change towards your dreams? Or tackle the fears that stop you from writing and publishing your book? Rachael Herron talks about creating despite the fear, and getting unstuck in this interview. In the intro, Blackberry movie and IP questions; The Copyright Handbook by Steven Fishman; Co-Intelligence: Living and Working With AI by Ethan Mollick; London Screenwriters Festival; Lessons from my screenwriting course (2018); Catacomb on my store, and on other stores; Spear of Destiny Kickstarter. Today's show is sponsored by Draft2Digital, self-publishing with support, where you can get free formatting, free distribution to multiple stores, and a host of other benefits. Just go to www.draft2digital to get started. You can also Join my community and support the show at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn. Rachael Herron is the internationally bestselling author of more than two dozen books, including thrillers, feminist romance, memoir, and nonfiction about writing. She's the host of the Ink in Your Veins podcast, and her latest book is Unstuck: An Audacious Hunt for Home and Happiness. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Tackling fear of the unknown when leaving your job, or making a big life change, or becoming a full-time author, based on Eight lessons learned from eight years as a full-time author. Overcoming the fear of the unknown when writing a book and you don't know the outcome The writing process when writing memoir vs. fiction Fear of judgement when writing memoir Writing as flawed and real humans that readers can relate to Analogue physical IRL experiences in the digital age Different fears that come with launching a Kickstarter You can find Rachael at RachaelHerron.com and her Kickstarter at RachaelHerron.com/Unstuck Transcript of Interview with Rachael Herron Joanna: Rachael Herron is the internationally bestselling author of more than two dozen books, including thrillers, feminist romance, memoir, and nonfiction about writing. She's the host of the Ink in Your Veins podcast. And her latest book is Unstuck: An Audacious Hunt for Home and Happiness. Welcome back to the show, Rachael. Rachael: I am so thrilled to be here with you, Joanna. Thank you for having me. Joanna: I'm excited to talk to you today. Now, you were last on the show in July 2023, not that long ago, talking about publishing options. So we're going to jump straight into the topic today. I wanted to talk to you partly because— You just did an episode on your podcast about eight lessons learned from eight years as a full-time author. Can you believe it's gone so fast? Rachael: No, I cannot. It's literally the blink of an eye. You know. Joanna: I think that is something maybe we'll circle back on, like how fast it comes. One of the things I really noticed as I listened to that episode was how relaxed you seemed in your writing life. You talk about leaping before the net appears, but this is super hard for people. So I want you to start with this fear of the unknown. How did you overcome your fear of the unknown? Both when you left your job and before you write each book? Rachael: I love this question, thank you. Fear is something that is ever present for me. I do suffer a little bit of anxiety. I am not a cool and calm kind of person. I tend toward the worrying spectrum. I have learned over the years that the best things I do are when I do this leap, when I do this jump into the unknown. It is always scary. So we started writing about the same time. I think I started writing seriously about 2006, and then I sold my first book in 2008, and then I was able to leave my day job in 2016. So for 10 years, I wrote and I worked my day job, night job. I worked for 911 for the fire department. It got to a point where I desperately wanted to leave my job and write full time. But I was making six figures as a 911 dispatcher, and I was only making about $30,000 as a writer per year. So it was a huge pay cut. So what we had to do was pay off all the debt, which we did over the course of those 10 years. Then I was able to make the leap. I have never been more sick about anything. I remember going into my manager's office, and she hadn't seen it coming because it wasn't worth talking about before then, and I told her that I quit. She was shocked, and she offered to keep me on as a consultant, like so she could pull me in for overtime kind of thing. I said yes, because I was so scared. So really, I quit, but I didn't quit. I honestly had this backup thing. I think I only worked one or two overtime shifts, and they just stressed me out so much that I didn't do them anymore, but I was terrified that we would end up living under a bridge, I would make no money, and we would lose the house. In that case, I had to cheat. Then my mother-in-law got sick, and if I quit, I could be with her. I could spend more time with her. Shortly after I quit, I mentioned this on the show, my wife lost her job. I am not sure that if I had still been working my job, and she had lost her job, would I have had the bravery to quit? Or would I have been scared, and I would still be a 911 dispatcher? I don't know. One of the things that I think about with fear, and I deal with this whenever I'm facing something big, including being scared to write a new book, or being scared to get the book right, is that I do know that leaping into the unknown is always scary. I feel like I used to think that if I were braver, if I had more courage, then it wouldn't feel that scary. In my case, and I think in the case of many people, it's we don't overcome fear. We don't just talk our way out of it and then feel better about it— We just learn to live with the fear. It's okay that it's there. I appreciate fear. I sometimes think of fear as this entity, this part of me, like fearful Rachael. Fearful Rachael does a really great job and I appreciate her. She is the one that keeps me from eating expired meat, and stepping in front of buses, and taking off my clothes in inappropriate places. You know, fearful Rachael pays the bills, she makes sure the lights stay on, she makes sure that I work hard enough to bring in X, Y, and Z, but she doesn't get to drive everything. She gets to have a say in some things, and she's not always right. So I like to thank that little fear, or the big fear, for keeping me safe. Then a couple of things that I've done in the past to combat fear is I've had a dedicated worry time and a worry journal that I can only write in at a certain time. Like 7:15pm is when I go into my office and I write for 10 minutes about what I'm scared of. When I've been in times of my life where I wake up at two in the morning, and I can't sleep because of fear, I do that. Then, specifically, so as you know, we took this big jump, and we moved from the United States to New Zealand almost three years ago. It's truly the scariest thing I've ever done in my life. I was so scared. Tim Ferriss, you know who he is, he has a podcast. He was talking about his fear setting exercise. Have you ever heard of this? Joanna: I have, but explain it to people. Rachael: So he does this fear setting exercise where for the big things, he sits down with a notebook, and he writes about the things that scare him. Specifically, I have this right in front of me, you ask yourself, “What if I, blank?” What if I leave everyone I know and love, all my family and all my friends behind, and moved to New Zealand? So you write down the what if, and then you write down every single fear that scares you the most. That's in one column, and then in another column, you write down the prevention for that fear. Then if it happens, in the third column, you write down how to repair it. I did this when we were moving to New Zealand, and I just learned that there were some things that I couldn't fix. Like, one of my biggest fears was that someone I loved would get sick or hurt and I wouldn't be able to get back to the States in time to say goodbye to them. I remember sitting with this piece of paper and thinking, how do I prevent this? Okay, there's got to be a way because Tim Ferriss said there will be a way, and there wasn't. What I put in that column was that I will always have enough money in the bank to get the first flight out to get to the States. Then under repair, there is no repair, but I can also stay in very close contact with the ones that I love. I am looking at the page here, I had 22 massive fears. From like, what if we get a divorce? What if we get sick and have no friends? I filled out the prevention and the repair columns, and it made me feel so much better to have kind of externalized all those worries. Then the last thing I'll say about fear is that he says, you ask yourself, what might be the benefits of an attempt, or partial success? Then you rate that one to ten. And what's the cost if I don't do this thing that I'm scared of? Then you rate that one to ten. For moving to New Zealand, the benefits were huge. We would see more of the world, we would travel, the choices are endless, and that got a 10. The cost of inaction, staying in Oakland with a mortgage we couldn't pay off before we retire, not having good healthcare in the United States, that got a two or three. So, let's go. Actually, I know that for writers sometimes putting that kind of thing on paper can help a lot. Joanna: It's interesting. You're right, we did start around the same time, 2006. That was when The 4-Hour Workweek came out, and I was pretty sure that is in that book. Rachael: Oh, I bet it is. I know it from a TED talk that he did on it. Joanna:

There are many options for book marketing, so how do you choose the right ones for you? I give my thoughts on the different polarities on the marketing scale to help you figure out what might work for your book, your stage on the author journey, and your lifestyle. In the intro, Storybundle for writers; Seth Godin on Tim Ferriss; Amazon's investment in Anthropic; Claude 3 direct or Poe.com; Claude prompt library; join me and Joseph Michael for a prompt webinar, 4 April, register here; plus, Spear of Destiny. Today's show is sponsored by my patrons! Join my community and get access to extra videos on writing craft, author business, AI and behind the scenes info, plus an extra Q&A show a month where I answer Patron questions. It's about the same as a black coffee a month! Join the community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn Joanna Penn writes non-fiction for authors and is an award-winning, New York Times and USA Today bestselling author of thriller, dark fantasy, and memoir as J.F. Penn. She’s also an award-winning podcaster, creative entrepreneur, and international professional speaker. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Traditional versus indie publishing Short term versus long term Income versus brand building Paid versus free The book versus you as the author Stand-alone versus series Exclusive versus wide publishing Publish fast versus publish slowly Write to market versus write first, market later Online versus offline. Global versus local Introvert versus extrovert Digital versus physical Data-focused versus intuitive marketing Fiction versus non-fiction Doing your own marketing versus hiring professionals Let me know what you think — leave a comment here or message me on X @thecreativepenn This chapter is from my Author Blueprint, available as a free ebook at TheCreativePenn.com/blueprint or in print and large print from CreativePennBooks.com and also Amazon.  There are more marketing strategies in my book, How to Market a Book, which is a few years old now, but the strategies and mindset are still valid, so I’d say 90% of it is still applicable, even if the tools have changed.  Different ways to market your book I frequently get asked, ‘How do I market my book?’  There is no quick and easy answer, no magic bullet, only various options that you can use at different points along your author journey. There is no ‘right’ way to market a book, and there are as many ways to reach readers as there are writers. We each use a different combination of what works for us, and most successful authors use varying types of marketing tactics, as well as changing things up over time.  You must find what works best for you — for each book and at each stage of your author journey. So instead of giving you a list of book marketing tactics, here are some of the opposite polarities on the marketing scale that — along with your definition of success — will help shape your book promotion choices. Think of each as a continuum: You will move up and down on these scales with every book as your career evolves. You’ll use different elements for each launch, as well as for long-term sales. Here are some things to consider. Traditional versus indie publishing Your marketing options vary based on how you publish and how much control you have over the book. If you’re traditionally published, you might be assigned a marketing team to help you or at least offered some aspects of book promotion as part of your contract. These might include an email blast, paid ads, deals in a store or supermarket, or help with pitching media for interviews and live events.  But unless you are a big name, it’s likely that the promotions team will only be available for the launch period. If you want to keep your book selling over the longer term, you will need to do at least some of your own marketing.  You won’t have control of your pricing, your cover, or the metadata around categories and keywords, and it won’t be financially viable to do paid ads as you won’t be able to measure sales and return-on-investment (ROI). This is why most traditionally published authors focus on marketing through PR, literary festivals, live events, relationships with book bloggers and media, as well as trying to build an email list and social media following. Indie authors are responsible for their own marketing from day one, but also have control of pricing, the book cover, and metadata, and they can measure ROI with daily sales reporting. As a result, they have more freedom with book marketing, and the opportunity to do price promotions, bundling, sales description, category and keyword changes, as well as paid advertising with measurable results. Short term versus long term New authors with only one book will often focus on short-term sales because they can’t yet imagine a future with more books.  Short-term sales are fantastic for that initial launch push, but they often cost money and are not sustainable. The spike often lasts only as long as you actively market the book or pay for ongoing traffic through advertising. If you want a long-term career as an author, you also need to think about long-term marketing and focus on building a sustainable baseline income, money that comes in from your books consistently every month without you having to pay for it.  You need more books on the market, more streams of income, more readers on your email list, and other ways to attract and retain them. That takes time to build but is worth the investment if you want a long-term career. Of course, most authors combine both kinds. When I do a Kickstarter launch (my next one is Spear of Destiny), I have a couple of weeks going all out with marketing actions every day — emails, social media, paid ads, podcast episodes, content marketing, tapping into my networks, and more — but once the campaign is done, I shift to the more evergreen, long-term marketing approach. Income versus brand building Some marketing activities are about making direct income, whereas others are about brand building.  An article in the mainstream media or an interview on a radio show or a podcast with a large audience can be great for building awareness of your author brand, and as social proof for your website. Having a book launch party at a swanky location might make the local paper and give you great photos for social media. Starting your own podcast, YouTube channel, or social media account and being consistent with posting niche content is a great way to build up a network and get attention over the long term. But these kinds of marketing are more about building awareness of your author brand. They (hopefully) result in book sales eventually, but it will take time.  If you want to focus on immediate sales and income, use paid ads to direct traffic directly to a book sales page, measure ROI, test new variations, and iterate. In terms of cash flow, if you want to receive money in your bank account more quickly, then selling direct can be worthwhile as you are paid within days, or even within hours, rather than months or years with traditional contracts. Paid versus free You will always pay for book marketing — but it’s your choice to pay with either your money or your time. Paid advertising can include newsletter blasts like BookBub or Bargain Booksy, as well as pay-per-click ads on Amazon or Meta, or hiring a freelancer to help get you media appearances, amongst many other options. Do not pay for book reviews or files with email lists or for anything that might compromise your integrity. There are lots of scams out there, so check Writer Beware if you have concerns, or ask in one of the established author groups online. I use Amazon Ads for some non-fiction books, and Meta Ads to my Shopify store for my fiction, as well as newsletter blast services, alongside content marketing. Content marketing involves providing something for free that attracts your target reader, usually in return for an email address. Some of those people might buy other books and services from you.  I started my website in 2008 and my podcast in 2009 and — apart from hosting fees — they cost time, rather than money.  For my non-fiction books for authors as Joanna Penn, content marketing includes my weekly show, The Creative Penn Podcast, as well as articles on my website, videos on YouTube, and my Author Blueprint.  I also do interviews on other podcasts, and I have profiles on social media, although I am pulling away from active time investment in that area. For my fiction and memoir as J.F. Penn, content marketing includes my perma-free first in series on all stores, Stone of Fire, and my free thriller on signup at: JFPenn.com/free I also have the Books and Travel Podcast, which is more sporadic than The Creative Penn, but helps to bring people to my travel memoir, Pilgrimage. I’m also more active on social media with Instagram @jfpennauthor and Facebook @jfpennauthor, as well as Boards on Pinterest @jfpenn. Other authors use social commerce engines like TikTok, creating multiple short videos to attract readers to their books. Investigate the options and find what works for your book/s and your lifestyle, as any marketing needs to be sustainable if you want to keep selling. The book versus you as the author Consider how you discover new books as a reader.  Perhaps you’re at a bookstore or browsing online and a cover catches your eye, or you delve into the category or genre of books you prefer, or you search for a particular type of book with keywords.  Maybe you see an ad on social media and click

What mindset shift do you need if you want to sell direct? How can you use Meta and AI tools to amplify your marketing? Matt Holmes gives his tips as well as insights from running my ads for my store, JFPennBooks.com. In the intro, how to sell more books at live events [BookBub]; Future of publishing and LBF, includes video of our live panel [Orna Ross on SelfPublishingAdvice]; 5 Trends we learned at the Future of Publishing [Kickstart Your Book Sales]; Author business and Author Nation [Wish I'd Known Then]; Amazon de-lists my Companion workbooks, but you can buy the spiral-bound versions and bundles on my store, CreativePennBooks.com. Plus, Nvidia's Earth2 digital twin development platform for climate science; Moonshots and Mindsets Podcast with Peter Diamandis; Sam Altman on GPT-5 [Lex Fridman] ; Using Claude for Shopify mass upload template [M.C.A. Hogarth]; Plus, join me and Joseph Michael for our AI webinar, 4 April, 8pm UK — register here to join us live or get the replay. Today's show is sponsored by ProWritingAid, writing and editing software that goes way beyond just grammar and typo checking. With its detailed reports on how to improve your writing and integration with Scrivener, ProWritingAid will help you improve your book before you send it to an editor, agent or publisher. Check it out for free or get 25% off the premium edition at www.ProWritingAid.com/joanna Matthew J. Holmes is a book marketing and direct sales specialist and the business partner of fantasy author, Lori Holmes. Matt has a great newsletter and courses for authors around Facebook ads and direct sales. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes A mindset shift when switching from KU to direct sales Control of your cash flow and customer base with direct sales Email marketing strategies AI automatic targeting vs. manual targetting Tools to create better ads for targeting your ideal reader Matthew's ad testing methodology The influx of print sales when selling direct and how to source them The Direct Sales Blueprint for Authors and Facebook ad courses You can find Matt at MatthewJHolmes.com. Transcript of Interview with Matthew J. Holmes Joanna: Matthew J. Holmes is a book marketing and direct sales specialist and the business partner of fantasy author, Lori Holmes. Matt has a great newsletter and courses for authors around Facebook ads and direct sales. Welcome to the show, Matt. Matthew: Hi, Jo. Thank you so much for having me on the show. It's a pleasure to be here. Joanna: I'm excited to talk to you. First up, just— Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into the self-publishing and book marketing space. Matthew:   Sure. So actually, Jo, it's probably your fault, really. We actually found you, I think it was about 2016 – 2018, somewhere around there. Lori, who as you said, is an author. She had a publishing deal with a publisher that fell through. Then we were deciding, should we go and find another publisher or should we try this self-publishing thing we thought about? We did lots of Googling and came across your blog and your podcast and your YouTube videos. It was through that, that we decided, okay, let's try the self-publishing route. So that's the route we went because all of the content you were putting out. So it's funny to really come full circle and be on your podcast now. So that sort of started off the self-publishing thing with Lori's book. She originally launched it in 2020, but that was after a rebrand before with the publishers, and she expanded that first book. We launched in April 2020, and that is about the time when COVID hit. From about 2010, up to COVID, I ran a video production company. Before that, I worked at the BBC. When COVID hit, my video production company just crashed and burned because you obviously couldn't go out and film people. I couldn't be around people, you had to be in bubbles and all that kind of thing. So that whole business just disappeared overnight, pretty much. We had our first twin boys coming about two months later, and we suddenly found ourselves in this position where we have no income apart from the government furlough. That saw us through the first few months of COVID, really. So I had a lot of time on my hands, and I like to keep busy. So I don't like to do nothing. So I launched myself into learning Facebook ads to advertise Lori's books. That's really how I got started with it all. I found I really enjoyed the Facebook ads dashboard, creating ads and all that kind of stuff, and all that the geeky stuff around ads. So I just launched myself into advertising Lori's books. It was just book one to begin with in April, and then book two came out in May. So a month later, because it was already written. Then we launched like a side novel, which again, was already written. I think it was June or July of that year, 2020. Since then, Lori's launched one book a year. So she's got a total now of six books published. It's just been one book a year, really. So that's our cadence. She's a very slow writer, but that's just the way she works, and it works for her. So over time, we've just gradually increased the budgets, and we've obviously increased earnings as well. We're up to about $17,000 – $18,000 a month in royalties, with about 2x return on ad spend, about 2.5x, something like that. So we're spending sort of $7,000 to $8,000 a month on Facebook ads. Then back in 2023, we started dabbling a bit in the direct sales side of things. We eventually pulled Lori's books out of KU in about October of 2023, and then went all in on the direct sales. Even now, we are still selling on Amazon, and we're doing pretty well on Amazon. Just most of our budget now is going into the direct sales. Joanna: I love this. So there's a few things. One, Lori is not a slow writer, she is a normal writer, writing one book a year. People have to remember this, like the indie author rapid release thing, that is not normal! Also, she writes pretty hefty books, doesn't she? Like they're fantasy books, right?What's the word count on her books? Matthew:  The first ones about 80,000, and then the other ones are up to about 150,000, something like that. Somewhere between 120,000 and 150,000. But there's a lot of background research that goes into them. Joanna: Yes, I just wanted to point out that Lori has six books, and they are good size books. I think this is so important because so many people think you can only be successful if you have like— well, the 20 books to 50k is kind of the model that has been talked about, but of course, you don't need to have that many books. That model I think is the old kind of KU model. What I love, and why you're here, is because you teach the newer model of using direct sales, but also using Meta ads, which we're going to come to. Thanks for sharing the numbers by the way, I think that's very generous of you to actually say numbers. So Lori's books were in KU, and you pulled them out towards the end of last year, as you mentioned. For people listening, KU is just for eBooks. You were just doing print on the direct sales. Tell us— How does the mindset have to shift between KU and selling direct? Matthew: It's quite a big shift. It took us a while to work on, and I guess some days we still are whenever we have a slow day on the store. With direct sales, you really are responsible for every single sale that comes in. Whether that's through ads, whether that's through email marketing, whether that's through any organic social media, you're responsible for all of it. Whereas with Amazon, you have to get your books to a certain point in the store, and then Amazon can take over with the organic sales based on the Amazon bestseller rank. You have to shift away from relying on Amazon to do all the selling for you, to you taking 100% responsibility for every sale. That's probably the biggest shift we found. It's a pretty daunting prospect to step away from KU. Particularly, Lori, she just has the one series. Well, okay, there's book one in the new series, but that's not doing much at the minute because it's not complete series. It's just that all her books were in one series, and they were all in KU, and we pulled all of them out at once. About 50% of Lori's royalties were from KU, so it was a big drop. So we had to make that work on a direct sales basis to get it to almost replace that income. Joanna: Why did you do it? People are like, why did you do it then? Matthew: Why did we do it? To have more control and have more ownership, really, of the people that are purchasing the books. To have a more direct channel of communication to every reader, to be able to nurture the relationship with every reader a lot more than we can with the likes of Amazon. Also, we can earn a lot more with the store in terms of the royalties we get because we don't have the Amazon's cut to pay. So we can earn a lot more for every sale that we generate through the store. They were the biggest reasons, really. Joanna: Just on the money, so you mentioned the amount that you spend on Facebook ads. The other thing is cashflow, right, because if you send traffic to Amazon, you're not getting paid for that for 60 days. Whereas with selling direct, you can get paid the same day or within 24 to 48 hours. Matthew: Yes, that's the other big thing, actually. We've set it to every week now. So you can choose your cadence of how often you're paid, so we set it every week. Yes, in terms of cash flow and supporting the ads, yes, you haven't got to wait. If you have a big month, you haven't got to wait two months to get that income into your bank acc

How can you use insights from the Enneagram to help you with a sustainable author career? How can you get past your blocks and move towards success, whatever that means for you? Claire Taylor provides her insights. In the intro, will TikTok be banned in the USA, and how will this impact authors and publishing? [TechCrunch; Kathleen Schmidt]; Hugh Howey on the Tim Ferriss show; I, Cyborg: Using Co-Intelligence [Ethan Mollick]; Using AI in award-winning writing [Smithsonian Mag; Editor and Publisher]; Plus, I'm now an award-winning author for Pilgrimage! [Pics on Instagram, Buy the book from me, or on other stores]; Spear of Destiny, Unstuck with Rachael Herron; I'm interviewed on the Casual Author Podcast, and Cops and Writers. Today's show is sponsored by Draft2Digital, self-publishing with support, where you can get free formatting, free distribution to multiple stores, and a host of other benefits. Just go to www.draft2digital to get started. Claire Taylor writes comedy fiction, science fiction, paranormal cozy mystery, and serial killer crime, with more than 40 books under various pen names. She also teaches authors through courses, consulting, and her books for writers, which include Reclaim Your Author Career, and her new book, Sustain Your Author Career. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes What is the Enneagram is and how can it help authors Differentiating questions to determine your Enneagram type Dealing with the unhealthy sides of your Enneagram type Overcoming blocks that authors may face Navigating changes in the (ever-changing) indie author industry Building resilience to sustain a long-term author career You can find Claire at FFS.media, and Sustain your Author Career here on Kickstarter. Transcript of Interview with Claire Taylor Joanna: Claire Taylor writes comedy fiction, science fiction, paranormal cozy mystery, and serial killer crime, with more than 40 books under various pen names. She also teaches authors through courses, consulting, and her books for writers, which include Reclaim Your Author Career, and the new book, Sustain Your Author Career. So welcome to the show, Claire. Claire: Hi, thank you so much for having me. Joanna: There's lots to talk about today, but first up— Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and publishing. Claire: Well, I was one of those people who wanted to be a writer since I was like 10 years old. Then I had just years of people telling me that was unrealistic. So that was fun. Luckily, I'm a little bit bullheaded. So I decided I was going to keep writing anyway and studied it in college. All of my professors basically frowned upon the kind of writing that I wanted to do, so I was trying to figure out, well, how am I going to do this anyway? Then I joined a critique group after college. That's where I met Alyssa Archer, who introduced me to all of the options that are included in publishing independently. I knew immediately that's what I wanted to do. So I skipped all the querying and just started learning the skills of self-publishing, and it's basically just been from there. I like being a one woman show and being able to call the shots. So I never looked back once I went indie. Joanna: Just give people a date then. When did you start self-publishing? Claire: Well, I did like a semi-self-publishing thing, one of those hybrid borderline rip off kind of things in like 2012. Then in 2014, I started publishing my own stuff through KDP. Joanna: You mentioned that you're a bit bullheaded and like to be in control. I've been wondering about this, because I feel like I'm similar, and— Do you think that there is a personality type who does well as an indie author, or can anyone be successful in this industry? Claire: I think anyone can find something that really resonates with them in this industry. I think as far as the perspective I come from with all of my training, every personality type, every positive healthy quality we have, can be overdone and work against us. So it's really about finding out the way that you want to go about this indie publishing business and making sure that you're not overdoing it. Joanna: Yes, I do wonder, though, because people email me now, and they say, “Oh, it seems like a lot of work.” I'm like, yes, it's work to do this career. If you don't want to do the work of publishing, then you need a publisher, like a traditional publisher. Claire: Yes, so I would say that if you don't want to do work, this is probably not the path for you. If you don't want to do a whole lot of work, maybe just publish it as a blog or something like that. I mean, I love a good challenge. So I love teaching myself new skills, I find that very engaging. So I think that is probably a necessary thing. Also, I think it's not just the person, I think it's the time of life where you're approaching this. Maybe you were a person who had a lot of energy to do this and that might have been the right time, and now with just the situation of your life, you're like, I just don't care to do this much work anymore. Then maybe it's time to switch. Joanna: Interesting. Okay, so you're well known in the author community for your work around the Enneagram and how that helps writers. So for anyone who doesn't know— Can you outline what the Enneagram is and how it can help authors? Claire: Of course. So the Enneagram, it's a personality system that describes nine core fears and desires. So we classify those as types or sometimes a lens, or sometimes we call it an Enneagram style. Each type is defined by what it fears and desires most. So those fears are very deep things, like being bad or corrupt, or lacking value, or being trapped in deprivation. They're not like a fear of snakes, that sort of thing. What arises from our core fear are these patterns of thinking, feeling, and doing that we can get very, very stuck in. So it's like having these blinders on before we start doing this work. So those blinders really limit our options. In our industry, we have a crisis of people being stuck and trapped because they've limited their options. Their subconscious mind has limited their options because of the patterns that it's functioning in as a default. So they can't always see an aligned path forward when the industry undergoes swift changes, which it does very frequently. So I can give you an example. If you're an author who's what we call a type three, this is the achiever, then your core fear is lacking value or being worthless, and pretty much everything you do is to avoid confronting this fear or feeling like you lack value or are worthless, if you're three. A pattern that almost always arises from this is the belief that they earn value through accomplishments and achievements. This can look like how many books they have in their catalog, how high their books rank after launch, and how many subscribers they have on their email list. So it all seems well and good to attach your sense of worth to those things when they're going well for you, but everyone who has been in this industry for a little while sees that all of those numeric indicators are becoming more difficult to come by. The result is that we have a bunch of Enneagram three authors whose self-worth is being eroded because they've attached it to something fleeting. So they may be trapped in that pattern, and they may not see another way of being because it's kind of the water they swim in. The Enneagram is a roadmap for many, many other ways of being and how we can be the healthiest and most sustainable version of ourselves. Joanna: I like the idea of the lens because I think that's important. Obviously, we're both friends with Becca Syme and that Clifton Strengths side of things. I also like the Myers Briggs. All of these are different elements of personality, and they can all help in different ways. So it's funny because people did recommend to me your work and the Enneagram, and I didn't go anywhere near it. I just didn't have time to look at it. Then when we arranged this interview, I'm like, okay, I need to read your books. So I've read both of these books now. So we're going to do a bit of diagnosis for the listeners. I'm going to get some free consulting on the show. I was reading it, and like you mentioned there, this achiever, the type three, and I'm like, yes, that's me. I just work really hard. I'm goal orientated. Some of the things you said weren't necessarily true, but I do have on my wall, “Measure your life by what you create.” I'm quite fixated on making and creating things, and work is my worth. I definitely am questioning this in the age of AI, you know, if a machine can generate stuff, what does that make me? So I'm definitely going through that. Then our mutual friend Becca Syme said that she thinks I'm a five, which is more about curiosity. I was like, oh, my goodness, that's totally me too. I'm sure this will happen to other people, like if they read your book, they'll be like, “Oh, but that's me, and that's me, and that's me.” How do we work out which Enneagram type we are? Maybe we can work out what I am together? Claire: Okay. Yes, definitely. So it is a thing that a lot of people run into because we often haven't thought of ourselves and sorted it into these sorts of terms before. So it can take a little bit of time, and there's value in that discovery process. If you're going between a couple, and you're like, “I don't know if I'm this or this, they both seem really common,” then there are some different differentiating questions that we can refer to. So it's kind of like, okay, if yo

There are more options for publishing and reaching readers than ever before, and the indie author business models are splintering and diverging, so how do we know which path to follow? How do we deal with the changes due to generative AI, and how do we manage the grief and anxiety about these shifts? Becca Syme gives her perspective. In the intro, Kobo Plus launches in Ireland and South Africa [KWL]; Authors Equity [Publishing Perspectives]; Selling direct insights [Kindlepreneur]; Claude 3 [Anthropic]; Spear of Destiny. This podcast is sponsored by Kobo Writing Life, which helps authors self-publish and reach readers in global markets through the Kobo eco-system. You can also subscribe to the Kobo Writing Life podcast for interviews with successful indie authors.  Becca Syme is an author, coach, and creator of The Better-Faster Academy. She is a USA Today bestselling author of small-town romance and cozy mystery, and also writes the ‘Dear Writer' series of non-fiction books. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Saturation causing a shift in the indie author business model The importance of having certainty in your own process An ego shift when selling direct Deciding on a business path amid uncertainty Choosing your ‘hard' Adapting the vision of your future in an ever-changing industry Finding readers in an evolving publishing industry You can find Becca at BetterFasterAcademy.com. Transcript of Interview with Becca Syme Joanna: Becca Syme is an author, coach, and creator of The Better-Faster Academy. She is a USA Today bestselling author of small-town romance and cozy mystery, and also writes the ‘Dear Writer' series of non-fiction books. So welcome back to the show, Becca. Becca: Thank you for having me, again. I love being here. Joanna: Now, you've been on the show a few times. So we're just going to jump into the topics today, as we've got so much to talk about now. I've really wanted to talk to you about some of the things I'm seeing in the community right now. You're so wise, and I think people need help and guidance. Sometimes I'm just a little bit blunt about stuff, and you have a different manner. So the first thing I want to talk about is a shift in the business model for indie authors. You and I were both at the last 20Books Vegas, the last ever one. It feels like what used to be one clear path is splintering into all different things. What changes are you seeing in the indie author business models? How is it affecting the authors you coach? Becca: The upside, I think, of some of the changes is that we're seeing a real trend away from this expectation of as many books as you can possibly produce — because we've hit the saturation point, basically, everywhere. There are always going to be these niche genres that pop up that aren't fully saturated yet, but they get to a saturation point pretty quickly. So when the whole of the industry is saturated, that changes the problems that readers have. So when readers were having a problem in 2012, there just weren't enough books. Like there weren't enough books for them to choose from, and New York sort of kept it that way on purpose, right. They kept the water blue on purpose. Now that we don't have that problem anymore and readers have different problems, then the way you solve them as a writer is different. So it becomes more and more important to find the people who are going to be your people that you're going to write for and to try to maintain some sense of having people that you are pleasing. Not that you have to write to market, not that you have to write for anyone but yourself, but we've lost this sense in the industry, I think, of like all you have to do is publish a book and it's going to sell. By the way, again, I always like to remind people that still wasn't the case, even in the Gold Rush. There still were plenty of books that weren't selling. We're facing that more now than we ever have because there are so many people who are having the experience of like, “Well, I came in and tried to do this model, and it's not working for me, and so now I have to think of something different.” The indicators are all there that the problems readers are having are different. So there's no more expectation, in my opinion. It's only grown over the last four or five years that what we're seeing are people who are writing fewer books a year and who are selling more. The faster and faster and faster you write, you have to know you can produce a product that people want to read if you're going to write that fast. Otherwise, writing that fast is not the way to go. Joanna: It's funny, I'm actually, as we record this, next week I'm speaking in Seville. I've kind of put a sort of tongue-in-cheek title on one of my slides, which is—“1BookTo50K,” instead of, “20BooksTo50K.” Do you agree with that? Becca: Oh, yes. I mean, I would say the problems that readers have are always the things that dictate the market, like the way the markets going to function. When there's too many books in the market—which obviously we're going to talk about that later on in this session as well—but when there's too many books in the market for readers to choose from, they have different problems. This becomes curation, right? Like, how do I find the books that are going to be the best for me to read? So putting more and more and more books and just not caring whether they meet reader expectations, not caring whether readers want them or not, that's not the way to solve the problem of curation. The way to solve the curation problem is to write a better book, and specifically to write a book that people will want to read. So I really believe that despite all the things that are happening in the industry, that for writers who want to write books, craft is going to become more important. Storytelling and pacing are going to become more important. There's going to be this resurgence almost of like, well, okay, now the pendulum has swung all the way to one side, in terms of like just creating anything just to put things out in the market, and we're recognizing that that's just not what readers want from us right now. Readers want better. They want books that they want to read, and however you personally can produce that is the model. Again, I would argue that has always been the model. Like the model for, let's say, 20BooksTo50K. For the people who can produce a lot of books, then that was the model. But for people who couldn't, there were still people who were only producing one, two, and three books a year, who were making a living writing, even during the gold rush. Joanna: Like me! Becca: Yes, like, it's always been that way. However you can produce a book people want to read is how you should produce it, and not pay attention to what other people are doing. Again, in an industry that's very competitive, it's hard to have that certainty about your own process. So I guess that's always what I'm hoping that I can do is to help people increase their certainty in their own process. Joanna: So I guess that's one thing, is the writing a lot of books. Especially, and we'll come back to AI, but there's a lot of ways to produce a lot of books very fast. So we can't compete on being a machine in terms of production. Another change, I think, is that the focus up until reasonably recently, I guess, was Amazon. Then, of course, there was KU plus ads, that digital-first model. Then even authors who go wide were focusing very much on retailers in general. It seems like there's also the shift into the selling direct model in different ways. What are those other business models you're seeing? Becca: I mean, I would agree with all of those, just in terms of the more reader-focused that we can become. I think the more we can think about how to solve the problems that readers are actually having, the more likely we are to maintain sustainability long-term. If what readers want is more of your world, then you giving them more of your world via something like Patreon, or doing Kickstarter or something like that, is going to be what will keep them invested in your platform, over choosing to go to other people's platforms. So there's this element for me of when the world shifts, we can't control what happens in the world, so you can either react to it or not. When the world shifts, and we move towards that people want curation, people want more good books, people want to go deeper into the things that they really like, they want more community, like those are problems that we can solve for them. Again, like not everybody's a community builder, I get that, but those are problems that we can solve for them. Using things that are more personal, that offer more access, that give us more control over the data, that seems to be the pendulum swing that we're in right now. Joanna: Well, can I just ask you then on the psychology side, because you're really good at this stuff, and there is a big ego shift when you move to selling direct. Like your Kickstarter, Shopify stores, Patreon, Ream, any of this stuff, there is no bestseller list, no one else can see how much money you're making. In one way it's freeing and in another way, well, no one can see your sales. Like most of my sales are now no longer tracked by any industry metric. They're kind of invisible. There's this invisibleness of selling direct. Which on the one hand, as I said, is great, and on the other hand, the ego sort of is blasted by this. A lot of people ask me this, they say, “But you can't hit a bestseller list this way.” What do you say to people who are like

How can you create more beautiful print books — and make more money with your products by selling direct? Alex Smith explains how BookVault can help with various options as well as helpful resources. In the intro, audiobooks and AI [Frankfurt Bookmesse]; Artificial Intelligence, Blockchain, and Virtual Worlds by Joanna Penn; Google's woke AI Gemini [The Verge]; AI solving humanity's hardest problems [NY Times]; Demis Hassabis on Hard Fork [NY Times]; Finding my voice in the AI wars [Talena Winters]. Plus, Author Blueprint (2024) is now in print (or get the ebook here); Spear of Destiny prelaunch page. Today's show is sponsored by ProWritingAid, writing and editing software that goes way beyond just grammar and typo checking. With its detailed reports on how to improve your writing and integration with Scrivener, ProWritingAid will help you improve your book before you send it to an editor, agent or publisher. Check it out for free or get 25% off the premium edition at www.ProWritingAid.com/joanna Alex Smith is the technical lead of Bookvault.app, the independent printer that I use for the books I sell direct on Shopify, as well as for my Kickstarters. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Services that Bookvault offers authors in order to make beautiful books and make more money selling direct Common issues to avoid when uploading files Special edition books—ribbons, sprayed edges, foiling options, and more Options for photo books or art books Working with Bookvault to create and fulfill a Kickstarter campaign How to get more help if you need it How the payment and fulfillment process works Connecting Bookvault to your direct online store Find out more about Alex Smith and Bookvault at Bookvault.app, which fulfils the print editions of my books at CreativePennBooks.com, and JFPennBooks.com. Transcript of Interview with Alex Smith Joanna: Alex Smith is the technical lead of Bookvault.app, the independent printer that I use for the books I sell direct on Shopify, as well as for my Kickstarters. So welcome to the show, Alex. Alex: Thank you so much for having us on. Joanna: I'm excited to talk to you. So first up, just— Tell people a bit more about Bookvault. And also how its parent company has been around much longer than people might think, given you kind of came out of nowhere a couple of years ago. Alex: Yes, so Bookvault is part of a large company called Print On Demand Worldwide. So we've been going for just shy of 29 years now. So, longer than me. Joanna: That's really funny. Wait, how old are you? Alex: I'm 24, nearly 25. Joanna: That's a great line. Okay, just so people know, you don't own the company, right? You're the technical lead, and you help all of us authors with all our stuff. Sorry, carry on about Print on Demand Worldwide. Alex: Yes, so we have our own production facility in the UK based in Peterborough, so 70 miles north of London. From there, we've done short run printing for that length of period. It was about 2009 that we launched Bookvault, and that was to serve our traditional publishers that we'd been working with, mainly in the academic sector. So they had a need to print single books on demand and in kind of a simple ordering process. So Bookvault was always kind of fenced off for them. It was an invite-only kind of system. When COVID struck, pretty much as everyone did, we sat back and evaluated our business. It gave us a real good time to kind of see where we're going. So we took those two years to completely redevelop the system, moving it more to kind of a self-sign-up approach and target the indie author market as well. So we relaunched it around late 2021. That's when we popped up on the scene. I think we then met you at London Book Fair in '22, and that's where we've been going since. Joanna: Yes, and as we speak, you're at another conference, and you're at a lot of the conferences. So hopefully, some of the people listening might have met you or Curtis or one of the team. Just in case people don't know— What does Bookvault offer authors right now? What are the main services that authors are using? Alex: So our big focus is to deliver high-quality books to help our authors earn more. So we've got a wide variety of print options. So we currently offer six stocks. So that ranges everything from the kind of similar stuff that you get from KDP and Ingram with those traditional trade papers. Equally, we offer some more kinds of different papers. So a really nice, coated paper for children's books and things like that. So that's something we really focus on. Equally, we've got six different bindings as well. So that allows you to get your traditional paperback or printed case bound. JF Penn signing Pilgrimage hardbacks at the Bookvault printing factory, Peterborough, UK with alex and curtis from the bookvault team We also offer linen wrap with foiling and a jacket. We offer spiral and wire bound, so they're kind of lay-flat books. As well as saddle stitch as well, so that's where you've got a staple in the middle, and that kind of pamphlet thing. So in terms of sizings as well, we don't have specific sizing. So you can upload a book of any size from A6 all the way to 297×297 millimeters. So it's a really big range, and that's in all those different bindings as well. Equally, a big thing for us as well is we offer split color. So if you've got a 100-page book and only one-color page, we'll only charge you for that one color page. That is a really big thing for us. One thing to note as well with Bookvault is that we do have an upload fee. That does stop the mass uploads. So when we initially relaunched it, it was a bit of naivety from us, we had someone in a weekend upload 20,000 books, all with different kittens on. So that completely ground the system to a halt and realized we had to do something. I mean, I like kittens, but not that many kittens. So we had to put that upload fee in place. We do work with organizations, such as the Alliance of Independent Authors, and every Alliance of Independent Authors member gets unlimited free title uploads each month. So it's not there as a barrier, it's just there to make sure that we've got genuine people wanting to make genuine money for selling their books. Joanna: We know how important that is. I actually think some of these other places are going to put in some kind of nominal fee because it is kind of getting a bit crazy. Let's come back to a few of the books. So amusingly, because of the sizing, this is what's so funny. You remember it, right, we met at London Book Fair, and I said, “Can I upload my five by eight files, the ones that I'd already got for KDP?” Lulu, the kind of other main one that people were using for things like Kickstarter and all of that, they didn't offer a five by eight. So that was the moment I was like, “Great. I can just upload the same file.” So I wanted to point that out to people is the files that you might have done for KDP, you can upload to Bookvault. The upload is pretty easy, but just tell people— What are some common issues that you see in the files that people send? Alex: Yes, certainly I think using a template or getting your sizing right is the most important one. We have a few set sizes that people generally use there, as well as a custom one. There’s a size called “standard,” and quite a lot of people seem to tick that one no matter what size their file is and think that they're going to produce a standard book with whatever you upload. So it's really important to make sure your sizing is exactly correct. We do have online validation. So as soon as you upload a file, it'll automatically go through and ticket, and then it'll be straight away ready to order. So it's kind of worth doing that. Then once you have uploaded, make sure to download the files and do a virtual proof and check that they look okay as well. I think you probably agree, the most important thing we see what people don't do is order a proof when you've uploaded it. So you can just order a single copy to yourself. We've had people upload a title and then do a Kickstarter run of 500 books, and as soon as it comes off the end of the line, it gets warped because it doesn't look right. It's always a pretty nerve-wracking experience. Joanna: Yes, I mean that it's just crazy. A couple of things there, one is—and amusingly, I said five by eight there, which is in inches if people don't know—and I think you've now added a toggle, haven't you, so that it's centimeters and inches. Alex: Yes, millimeters and inches. We've had people trying to upload a book that was five millimeters by eight millimeters. So they ran into a few issues there. Joanna: That's so funny. Alex: Being a UK company, even myself, trying to get my head around inches and millimeters, I need a little pocket calculator to quickly do it. But yes, you can toggle between it. Joanna: Also, so people know, because I did this the other day, you can upload an interior file and then download a template for the cover, can't you? Alex: Yes. So that's something we've worked on, and we're looking to enhance it even further. Even before you've made a title, you can go onto our quoting tool, put the sizes in and specifications, and then you can download both an interior template and a cover template. As well as if you want to upload a jacket as well, you can download a jacket template. Joanna: So then the other thing is, I think many of us want to do more and more higher quality print books. You mentioned six stocks and special paper, you mentioned six bindings and lots of different

How can you write a memoir that is emotionally honest and revealing enough for readers to care, and cope with the inevitable fear of judgment that evokes? How can you write about real places and people in memoir? Why is editing a memoir so challenging and what should you keep in mind around publishing and marketing choices? J.F. Penn gives her tips after writing her midlife solo travel memoir, Pilgrimage: Lessons Learned from Solo Walking Three Ancient Ways. Thanks to everyone who backed my Kickstarter for Pilgrimage, and to my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn, who help fund the extra time it takes to produce these solo episodes. J.F. Penn is the Award-nominated, New York Times and USA Today bestselling author of thrillers, dark fantasy, crime, and travel memoir. Jo lives in Bath, England with her husband and two British short-hair cats, and enjoys a nice G&T. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes What kind of book do you want to write? The particular challenge of memoir Vulnerability and emotional honesty Capture your experience through writing and photos Writing about real people and places Character arc Truth (capital T) vs truth (small t) Specific sensory detail The first draft and killing your darlings Publishing choices and formats Marketing. Finding an audience for a different type of book You can buy Pilgrimage in all the usual formats from my store, JFPennBooks.com as well as the special hardback and paperback with photos from the trips. It’s also on all the usual stores in all the usual formats, or order from your library or local bookstore.  Jo Frances Penn with Pilgrimage If you want to read about the day-by-day pilgrimages, and see photos from the routes — The Pilgrims Way and the St Cuthbert’s Way in the UK, and the Camino de Santiago Portuguese Coastal — go tohttps://www.booksandtravel.page/pilgrimage-resources/ for all the links to my trips, gear list, questions to think about, and interviews. You can find my lessons learned from the campaign and more tips for Kickstarter at https://www.thecreativepenn.com/selldirectresources/  If you want more interviews on writing memoir and book recommendations, go to https://www.thecreativepenn.com/writing-memoir/  Introduction I wrote this little book about writing travel memoir as a stretch goal for the Backers of my Pilgrimage Kickstarter in February, 2023. Thank you so much if you supported the campaign!  I thought I would turn these notes into a craft book at some point, but as I shared in the episode on my 15-year Creative Pivot, I have a lot of other projects on the go, and I wanted to share this information with my wider community in the hope that it will help you if you want to write memoir of any kind, or even just non-fiction with more personal elements. It is designed to be read or listened to after the Pilgrimage book as there may be spoilers, and also it makes more sense to be read in context. You can buy Pilgrimage at my store, www.jfpennbooks.com and also on all the usual stores in all the usual formats, but hopefully the information is still useful even if you haven’t read the book. 1. What kind of book do you want to write? If you feel the urge to write a memoir, it might still take some time to work out what the hell you’re writing!  I’ve been wanting to write a travel book for years, but I didn’t know exactly what I wanted to write. As a discovery writer, I figure out what I’m writing once I actually start writing it, so although I have written journals related to my travels for decades, nothing emerged as a coherent potential book. To take a step back, I have a lot of potential ways into a travel book.  My mum took me and my brother to live in Malawi, Africa, in the early 1980s and my memories of going to school there are full of the wonder of being ‘somewhere else.’ Jo Penn, Early years in Malawi I still remember looking out at the sunrise over the Sahara desert from the plane cockpit back in the days when they let kids go up there. Those were also the days when people still smoked on planes, and I remember how my mum made us breathe through handkerchiefs to save us breathing too much in. Those early years may have triggered my wanderlust, and I started reading travel books in my teens. The Life of My Choice by Wilfred Thesiger, Seven Pillars of Wisdom by T. E. Lawrence, The Songlines by Bruce Chatwin, and so many more. I wanted to be like them and travel the world, experiencing everything and writing about my adventures. Fast forward more than thirty years and I was writing non-fiction for authors, and also fiction as J.F. Penn, incorporating my more recent travels into my stories. Morgan Sierra, in my ARKANE series in particular, is my alter-ego and her adventures and thoughts are often my own. Although of course, I am not ex-Israeli military; I don’t know Krav Maga, and I don’t chase bad guys! But despite all my published work, I still had a desire to write travel, and so in 2019, I started BooksAndTravel.page, with articles and photos about travel and books, as well as a bi-monthly podcast.  The goal was to use the site to write memoir-style essays and create thematic episodes around my travels as well as interview other writers, and hopefully, figure out what I wanted to write in terms of a travel book, and build an audience along the way. I did lots of solo episodes on my Books and Travel Podcast including why I travel, the importance of home in difficult times, the three trips that changed my life, Venice, scuba diving, Oxford, Australia, Bath, and more. [Episodes are linked on this page.]  I had ideas for starting a separate business around guided trips and retreats, as well as books and other travel-related products. Then, in early 2020, the pandemic struck, and the world changed.  The travel industry changed too, and I also learned more about how the business side of it worked. The Books and Travel Podcast sustained me during the years of no travel, and slowly, I found examples of books that enabled me to see a path to writing my own.  At first, I thought I would write an A to B travel narrative with personal elements, like Alastair Humphreys’, My Midsummer Morning. [Interview with Alastair here.] I thought I might have several such books, one per walk/solo trip, similar to Holly Worton’s Alone on the Ridgeway. [Interview with Holly here.] But after walking the Pilgrims’ Way, I realized I didn’t want to write a book about individual routes. I didn’t have enough material to make it a worthwhile narrative, and it just didn’t feel right. Also, if I started writing these kinds of books, then I would need to write them for each trip. I still wanted to write my other books, and I just couldn’t see how I would have time for it all. Then I discovered travel books which are more a series of trips hung around thematic chapters, and that seemed like a better fit for my project. Open Road: A Midlife Memoir of Travel Through the National Parks of the USA by Toby Neal was a great example [Interview with Toby here], as well as Not Quite Lost: Travels Without A Sense of Direction by Roz Morris.[Interview with Roz here.] Both have chapters about different places interspersed with the emotional aspects of memoir. In addition, although not specifically travel, Rachael Herron’s A Life in Stitches is also similar as a series of emotionally resonant linked essays about knitted garments. Rachael also has a craft book, Fast Draft Your Memoir, which is useful for the writing craft aspect. [Interview with Rachael here.] TIP: Find books that are similar to what you want to write and model them. There are lots of different travel sub-genres, and Jeremy Bassetti has a great article about 10 different kinds on his site, Travel Writing World. They include the travelogue, the quest, the investigation, the big idea, the mode (e.g. cycling), and more. I discussed aspects of travel writing with Jeremy in this interview. I found this to be a critical part of the writing process, as until I had a ‘model’ for my book, I struggled to structure it. Once I knew it would be thematic chapters with vignettes, it was easier to work out what the book might be. 2. The particular challenge of memoir “Writing the self is a tricky, slippery business.” Cathy Rentzenbrink, Write It All Down: How to Put Your Life on the Page Before writing, I knew intellectually that memoir might take a lot more time than other kinds of writing, but truthfully, I didn’t expect it to be so for me.  After all, I’ve written over 40 books. I know what I’m doing! My books usually take a few months to write once I knuckle down to the first draft, and I write pretty clean these days so my edits are not usually significant. I’m a binge writer, or a project-focused writer, which means I don’t write every day, but I work on one project at a time, and put that through to completion, before working on the next.  But it feels like I’ve been writing this memoir for decades — and realistically, I have been as there are elements of my earlier life included. In an interview I did with Marion Roach Smith on memoir in July 2020, I said,  “I keep walking up to the idea of memoir and then walking away again.” That’s how it’s been for a long time. Threads of ideas in the book come from my teenage years, and the idea of walking the Camino itself comes from those early days of faith.  The words that eventually became Pilgrimage were mainly written from the early months of 2020 to the end of 2022, so that’s almost three years and most of th

How can we focus on the joy of the writing process itself, rather than the outcome? How can we embrace the positive side of being jealous of the success of other writers? How can we deepen our writing with metaphor and sense of place? Co-authors of writing book, Millions of Suns, Sharon and Christine share their tips. In the intro, Findaway Terms of Service; Why Kickstarter is the Most Creative Way to Launch Your Book [Self-Publishing Advice]; Sell direct resources; Why writing books is a career like no other [Roz Morris]; You are not what you used to be [Johnny B. Truant]; OpenAI's text to video tool, Sora; Google's Gemini model; the Vesuvius Challenge; Plus, my updated Author Blueprint; Spear of Destiny; and Pilgrimage is an award finalist for the Selfies [BookBrunch]; This podcast is sponsored by Kobo Writing Life, which helps authors self-publish and reach readers in global markets through the Kobo eco-system. You can also subscribe to the Kobo Writing Life podcast for interviews with successful indie authors.  Sharon Fagan McDermott is an award-winning poet, musician, and a teacher of literature. M. C. Benner Dixon is an-award winning author, freelance editor, and writing coach. Together, they are the co-authors of Millions of Suns: On Writing and Life. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Finding play and joy in the work of writing How to find joy when writing alone Using metaphor to elevate your writing Bringing place alive on the page Reframing jealousy in a positive way The benefits and struggles of co-writing You can find Sharon at SharonFaganMcdermott.com and Christine at BennerDixon.com. Transcript of Interview with Sharon Fagan McDermott and M.C. Benner Dixon Joanna: Sharon Fagan McDermott is an award-winning poet, musician, and a teacher of literature. M. C. Benner Dixon is an-award winning author, freelance editor, and writing coach. Together, they are the co-authors of Millions of Suns: On Writing and Life, which we're talking about today. So welcome to the show, Sharon and Christine. Christine: Thank you so much. We're so glad to be here. Sharon: We are so glad to be here. Thank you, Jo. Joanna: So we're going to get straight into the book. You talk about the power, the play, the joy of writing. It's interesting because sometimes I feel like that play and that joy are lost in the discussions around publishing and the business of books, and this show is as guilty as any around that. So I wondered if we could start by talking about— What are your tips for finding play and joy in the work of writing itself? Especially if authors feel that it is lost. Christine: Yes, absolutely. So this is Christine. Sharon and I actually met and became friends under very stressful circumstances. We're both upper school English teachers at the same school in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Teaching is one of those jobs, like publishing, that asks a lot of you. There's a lot of little details to keep track of. It's emotionally intense. You're facing months on end of relentless deadlines. Sound familiar? Many days, Sharon and I ended up side by side in our office, looking and feeling a bit like dish rags, just kind of like limp and dripping. In those difficult moments, and this is part of why we became such good friends, we would play together. One of us would start a joke about like how we wished we were ambidextrous because then we could grade twice as fast. Then the other one would suggest like writing with our toes, and we'd consider a pen in the mouth. We'd go on and on and laugh ourselves silly. We weren't playing in those moments because we had lots of free time and light hearts, we were playing because we needed it. It was a way to name the absurdity of the situation and take a little bit of control back. I think that's very often the case with playfulness and joy. These things are a necessity, not a luxury. The book was actually written in the early days of the pandemic. Both Sharon and I, for different health reasons, have to be very cautious about COVID, so we went into intense isolation. The writing was a joy to us, it sustained us, but it was a deep, hard joy that we kind of had to mine out of ourselves. Not because we were living the good life, but because we needed it to survive. I think joy is this kind of radical act of resistance, and play too. You asked about the pressures of publishing, and I think that that fits right in here. It can be incredibly hard to keep the joy and playfulness of writing front and center. Publishing takes time, it takes attention, it's emotionally exhausting at times, and there's periods when it can really take over your writing life. I would say there are a couple of things to do to protect your joy in writing. One is to involve someone else, preferably someone who is committed to celebrating your work. Having Sharon on the other side of the porch, reading her essay drafts to me, listening to mine, made it feel a lot more like play because we were tossing ideas back and forth. We were delighting in little turns of phrase and asking questions, being in it together. So I think finding someone who will play with you is really important. The other one is to really put a value on your joy. It's a harsh reality that time is finite. When you're working on the business side of publishing, it does cut into your writing time, period. Have some grace with yourself. Don't beat yourself up if you didn't hit your 1000 words a day, or whatever your goal is. Keep in mind that — The joy that you have in your writing is perhaps the most important resource for your writing career. You have to nurture it, you have to prioritize it. Even if it feels like you should be doing these other things, do the kinds and the parts of writing that you love. Not just because it's good for your writing career, but it is. It's also because it's going to give you the tools to survive on the planet as a playful, joyful person. If you want to talk in purely business terms, your writing career does depend on your willingness to keep writing. Feed the joy, and it will pay you back. Sharon: I agree with Christine when she says pick the right person that you're going to be working with. The two of us knew each other so well and knew each other's sense of humor, and that sense of humor gets us through a lot of things. I'm a poet, I usually write by myself. I'm not someone who can write out in coffee shops or other places with other people. I really need quiet and alone time to do that. It's a cliche, but it's true, it can be very lonely to write sometimes, especially if you're doing material that might be slightly darker or delving into things you haven't delved into before. So this was a new occasion for me, working with Christine. The kind of joy that came from the spontaneity, that back and forth banter, knowing that somebody was on the other side of this. I should say this, Jo, we made a pact with each other, we were not going to critique each other, which I know is unusual. We trusted each other's writing process, we trusted each other's skills. That's why I asked Christine to do this project with me. In so trusting, we felt like we could do our own revisions. We didn't need to be each other's editors. That wasn't what we were there for. We were there to kind of inspire and support and uplift one another, and that's exactly what happened. I don't mean to sound pollyannaish, but it truly is what happened. It was probably my favorite writing experience of my life, to be honest with you. Joanna: Well, that's interesting. You mentioned that you do most of your creation alone, and that is going to be the reality for most people listening. So what are your thoughts on finding that hard joy, I guess, as Christine mentioned before? How do we find the joy if we're writing alone? And we don't have that person who we're laughing with every day? How do you do it? Sharon: I love that question, Jo. So sadly, I have just returned from a younger sister's funeral, and that just was this past weekend. I know I will be writing about her, and I'm sure that doesn't sound like anything that anybody would want to delve back into, going through grief and sorrow about losing someone you love. For me—and this happened at a very young age, I think because I had an Irish grandfather who was always reciting poetry and was very playful about language. He would let me take a line, for instance, and let me kind of mimic it and then rhyme it, and he would laugh and support that kind of play with language. He didn't treat it as precious stuff in that way. I think writing alone and needing the silence, I'm still amusing myself on the one hand by the malleability of language, the flexibility of it, the play that I can do with my words. Also, I think, and this is a little bit deeper, I don't know if this is what you're looking for, but I think — When you hit something like grief and something that feels chaotic and uncontrollable, there is something quite beautiful about being able to order something on a page, even if it's just words. Words can't bring the dead back, they can't bring the loved one to your door again, but maybe I can take some of that grief that can feel so chaotic sometimes and make a pure order of it on the page while working in this medium that I love so much. I actually really love words, and I think that brings me comfort no matter what. Joanna: I think that's great. I love this phrase that Christine used, I guess, this ‘hard joy.' Talking there about the difficulty in writing, and I'm so sorry about your sister, Sharon, I have two younger sisters. So I feel some empathy there

How can you pick yourself, rather than wait for someone else to pick you? How can you take control of your independent career and bring your creative vision to life? Jeffrey Crane Graham talks about his experience as an indie filmmaker, with lots of tips for indie authors. In the intro, 6 Types of Submission Comments BookBub Editors Love to See [BookBub]; Author platform is not a requirement to sell your novel or children’s book [Jane Friedman]; Your Author Business Plan and/or Business for Authors 50% off with discount coupon PLAN on CreativePennBooks.com; Spear of Destiny; Ruby Roe rainbow foil hardcover Kickstarter; Updated Author Blueprint coming soon; I'm interviewed on writing memoir [QWERTY Podcast]. Today's show is sponsored by Draft2Digital, self-publishing with support, where you can get free formatting, free distribution to multiple stores, and a host of other benefits. Just go to www.draft2digital to get started. Jeffrey Crane Graham is a writer, director, and podcast producer. He wrote and directed the multi-award-winning film Always, Lola, and has also written comedy shorts. He produces and co-hosts The Screenwriting Life podcast. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Choosing yourself, rather than waiting for someone to pick you The process of creating a micro-budget feature Writing screenplays that are “practically shootable” Tips for authors who want to get their books on screen Marketing a film in a crowded market How the film festival circuit works for indie filmmakers Possible uses of AI in the filmmaking process that are not the act of creation You can find Jeffrey at JeffGrahamDigital.com. You can find Always Lola at AlwaysLolaFilm.com. Transcript of Interview with Jeffrey Crane Graham Joanna: Jeffrey Crane Graham is a writer, director, and podcast producer. He wrote and directed the multi-award-winning film Always, Lola, and has also written comedy shorts. He produces and co-hosts The Screenwriting Life podcast. So welcome to the show, Jeff. Jeffrey: Thanks, Jo. I'm honored to be on the show. As I told you before we went on air, I'm a fan of your podcast. So I am glad to be here. Joanna: Oh, good. Well, lots to talk about. First up— Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into screenwriting and film. Jeffrey: So I'm from Cleveland, Ohio. I feel like I got especially interested in writing in middle school, I was writing a lot of short stories. Then I feel like in high school, I got the ambitious idea of like, “I'm going to try to write a novel.” That's something I would still like to do before I die. I always think of novelists as like real writers, and screenwriters are aspirational novelists. Just because the idea of a novel, I think, is so intimidating. The idea to first kind of start writing for film and TV—I think most screenwriters can point to a movie that feels pretty definitional for them—I think for me, that would have been Little Miss Sunshine. It was the first movie I watched where I really subconsciously thought, somebody wrote this. I feel like film culture, especially feature films, are so built around the idea of directors being the author of the movie. Whereas I'm always most interested in who penned the script. Little Miss Sunshine, I remember watching it and specifically loving the dialogue and the twists with the characters that you learned throughout the journey. I distinctly had the realization that somebody literally wrote words on a page that these actors are saying, and I have to know who that writer is. Of course, that writer is Michael Arndt, who in such a cool full circle way I got to interview on the show I co-host, The Screenwriting Life. I did my best to maintain professionalism as I told him he was one of my heroes. Then from there, I just started writing more and more scripts. I ended up optioning a half hour pilot, which kind of got me excited to move to Los Angeles. And here I am now talking about my debut feature film, which is called Always, Lola. Joanna: A few things I want to follow up on there. First of all, it's so interesting, you talk there about when you notice the writer. I was just thinking about the TV show Succession, which I love. Jeffrey: It's one of the best of all time. Joanna: Yes, and the dialogue is so good. It's so cutting. It's the most violent family dialogue, but not in a violent way. You know what I mean? Jeffrey: Of course, yes. Joanna: It's one of those shows where I'm, like, wow, these writers are really good. Then the other example I was thinking of recently, we were watching season two of Reacher the TV show. Season one—I don't even know if this is true—but we were like season one had great writing, season two had terrible writing. Jeffrey: Interesting. It happens. Joanna: It's interesting because often we don't think about the screenwriter, or the screenwriting team. When you were saying that, it's really the first time I've thought about— When do you really notice the writer, as opposed to the director? Jeffrey: Well, it is interesting. I'll talk about Succession. I don't know as much about Reacher. It's funny because television is also an interesting one, and I'll get to this, but it's so collaborative that sometimes you're not sure if it's the studio, or the directors, or the showrunner, or someone in that room. That's true of movies as well. I think with Succession especially, Jesse Armstrong had had such a long career as a comedy writer. I don't know if you're a Peep Show fan… Joanna: No. Jeffrey: Great, great show. He co-created that with a writer I admire named Sam Bain. Since he had worked so long, specifically in more comedy zones, I think Succession was such an interesting synthesis of it's a hilarious show, like you mentioned, and the dialogue is so cutting and brutal. It's also this Shakespearean look at the intensity of family, and legacy, and living up to the impossible standards that your parents set for you. Interestingly, Jesse Armstrong hired a ton of playwrights for that show. So a lot of the writers room came from acclaimed, under-seen, like West End plays. So because I think playwriting is so dialogue-heavy and Jesse Armstrong has talked about the influence of Shakespeare on his work, maybe that's why the writing especially stands out. I also think, interestingly, I think when you look at playwriting —  The playwright is usually considered the author of the work. Whereas in screenwriting, sometimes the director is considered the author of the work. I've always kind of objected to that. Joanna: Yes, that is interesting. So from the big TV shows and the big films, and you describe Always, Lola as a micro-budget feature. So just explain a bit more about that. Like, did you do absolutely everything? Tell us about the process of getting that done. Jeffrey: I did a lot of it, I will say. I want to be careful to make sure I'm giving credit to all the departments who helped on the film. It is interesting with your first feature, so much of it is just kind of pulling the cart yourself and getting it over the finish line. Budgetarily, and I'm happy to talk about this, it's a big part of your show. I would say like 80% of the budget, which for production was somewhere between $20,000 – $30,000, was my own savings, with probably 20% of that coming from producers. Then once we got into post production there were some additional costs that come up from editing and color correction and sound. So financially, a lot of it is my own investment. I mean, obviously, I wrote the script. I was a huge part of getting the movie cast. I did write for a number of actors that I already knew who were sort of in development with me before we even decided to put it up on its feet. For some of the characters, I cast them in a very traditional way. I did it by reaching out to agencies through my production company email that I founded to put the movie together, and I cast that in a traditional way. I think it's really important to credit my director of photography, a brilliant DP named AJ Young. I think this was his 11th feature. I think like the look and the way the movie is lit, I worked very closely in tandem with him. He has a ton of experience on big budget movies all the way down to these sort of scrappy micro-budget films. So he really understood how to work with the budget we have to make it look as good as it could. So I will credit him, but in terms of the other departments and post production, most of it was just me. Joanna: Yes, and that's why I guess we're talking, really, is that you're an indie filmmaker. You've done it on this $20,000 to $30,000, which was your savings, and obviously a lot of your time, and your relationships, and all these things you put into it. So this is a labor of love. Tell us about the idea behind the film. Like what possessed you to do this? Jeffrey: Yes, totally. I'll talk from a personal perspective first and then practical perspective second. The story is kind of a feel-good coming-of-age dramedy. A lot of critics have mentioned the movie The Big Chill, which was a big inspiration for me as I was writing. I love Lawrence Kasdan, and in general, I sort of love 80s hangout ensemble dramedies. Like The Big Chill, or The Breakfast Club, or pretty much anything that John Hughes was doing in the 80s. I think it's harder and harder to find character-driven dramedies. They were so popular, and they've kind of gone away. So I bring that up because the movie is loosely inspired by the death of my best friend from high school. The movie follows these five best friends who are reuniting on their annual camping tri

How do you find the story behind all your stories? Who are you at the heart of your books? Isabelle Knight talks about the importance of author brand in an age of limitless content, and gives tips on how to discover yours. In the intro, 20 new miniature books added to Queen Mary’s Dollhouse [BBC]; Amazon announced Rufus, a new generative AI-powered conversational shopping experience; How generative AI will impact book discoverability; Amazon AI Ready Initiative free AI training; NY Times is hiring for their own AI initiatives [The Verge]; “There’s nothing wrong with the tech, but it has to be legal and licensed.” [Hollywood Reporter]; Tools & Strategies you must use to survive the 2024 revolution [Marketing Against the Grain]. Plus, I recommend Forever Strong by Dr Gabrielle Lyon; my Kickstarter pre-launch page is up for Spear of Destiny; Vienna, Nuremberg, and Cologne: My Five days Research Trip notes and pictures. Today's show is sponsored by ProWritingAid, writing and editing software that goes way beyond just grammar and typo checking. With its detailed reports on how to improve your writing and integration with Scrivener, ProWritingAid will help you improve your book before you send it to an editor, agent or publisher. Check it out for free or get 25% off the premium edition at www.ProWritingAid.com/joanna You can also support the show and join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn Isabelle Knight is a professional publicist, speaker and PR & brand mentor to authors and business founders. She is also adjunct professor in MA, PR & Advertising at the American International University of London. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Brand and it's importance in the age of AI Is human connection more important than content? How to draw an emotional connection with your unique story Creating and controlling your author brand story Dealing with the fear of vulnerability Tips for pivoting your author story At what stage could a publicist be helpful for an indie author? You can find Isabelle at BuildYourBrandWithPR.com. Transcript of Interview with Isabelle Knight Joanna: Isabelle Knight is a professional publicist, speaker and PR & brand mentor to authors and business founders. She is also adjunct professor in MA, PR & Advertising at the American International University of London. So welcome to the show, Isabelle. Isabelle: Thank you very much, Jo. It's pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me. Joanna: I'm excited to talk about this topic. Before we get into it— Tell us a bit more about you and your background in the publishing industry. Isabelle: So my background is a publicist, the bulk of my career was in film. So I was a film publicist for a long time. Then I moved into TV, and this was film production and TV production as well. So I was a publicist who goes on set and works with the actors and the directors and the writers and that kind of thing, as well as publicizing releases of films and TV shows. Through that time, I also worked on some book releases with authors, but particularly towards the end of my kind of traditional publicist career, I worked with JK Rowling and the production team that produced the Strike series of books for TV. So it wasn't JK Rowling, it was JK Rowling writing as Robert Galbraith. So I was on that for a few years, which was all very exciting. Then the pandemic hits and everything kind of changed, in terms of mostly the way that publicists were able to work and that productions were able to work. So I took my business online. So now I do everything online. I started working with—because I'd come from the creative industries—I was working with people who are writing books. So this was kind of business owners, but then also, fiction writers. I discovered that lots of people were writing books but didn't have any idea of how to bring those books to a readership or to find an audience and grow an audience, and perhaps actually become known as authors and sell books. I'd spent a long time, 20 years or so, working with people to essentially make them famous and make their creative output famous. So I thought, well, loads of these people just don't have any of the kinds of resources and tools and knowledge that as a publicist working in those big industry, that you kind of start to take it for granted that people know what to do when it comes to promoting themselves. Of course, I quickly realized that many people don't know what to do. So now, rather than doing people's PR, or publicity for them, which, you know, for most indie and self-published authors is a very expensive thing to do. What I do now is I mentor, and essentially teach, authors how to go about building their brand, promoting themselves, creating a name for themselves, and creating a readership, a fan base, growing that readership, and selling some books. So that's what I now concentrate on doing, and I absolutely love working with authors. It's mostly indie and self-published authors, but also small press authors. It's basically any author that finds themselves having to essentially do most of their own marketing and promotion. Joanna: Well, that's definitely most of the listeners. That's great. So you mentioned the word “brand” there. I feel like it's so difficult to know, what is an author brand anyway? So maybe you could get a bit into that. Tell us— What is a brand? Why is it so important, perhaps even more in this age of AI? Isabelle: Yes, absolutely. So because I'm a publicist, I come at this from this angle. So just imagine this scenario: if I was going to put you in front of a journalist tomorrow and they were going to ask you about being an author, and they were going to ask you about your books, what they really want to know is—and this kind of extends to what your reader wants to know—is why should they be interested in the books that you have written? So your brand goes much deeper than what is the book, or what are the books, what are they about, what's the genre, what are the tropes that you're using? It goes much further than that, into who are you as an author and what is it that you have to say, as an author, that is going to give us, the readers, something to care about? Because we've got to care about this enough that we're going to give your book a shot. Now that we're all surrounded by content so much all of the time in our age of social media, and increasingly in our age of AI, we're bombarded constantly with messages. In the book world, as it gets busier and busier and self-publishing and indie publishing gets busier, which is very exciting, but also makes it even harder now for authors to stand out in that kind of busyness and noise. So we have to find the thing that makes the author unique. The way we do that is by looking at what I call the author brand story, which I know sounds quite terrifying to authors when they're first coming into this. If we kind of set aside the word “brand” for the moment, and we just look at, well, — What is it about the author that makes them unique? Why are they writing? What are they writing? So for example, if you're a fiction author and writing romance, or you might be writing fantasy or science fiction, why are you writing in that genre? What is it that is important to you about it? What messages do you want the reader to take away? What do you want them to remember about the book? So with a journalist, they're going to be asking, why do you write? That would probably be the first question. Or, what made you become an author? So it's thinking about that, and it's thinking through what you can say about yourself as an author. So most people become authors because they're emotionally led to do it. The motivation tends to be emotional when we're writing and the themes that we're writing about. So what are the things that drew you to those themes? What are the things that led you to write what you're writing? Joanna: So many things there. I've been writing notes to come back on. So you talk there about how we have so much content all the time, and that the person on the other end, whether they're a journalist or a reader, needs to know who you are as an author and what the emotional connection is between you in some way. So I feel like for the last decade, we have focused much more on content. So you said content, books being content, even though it's not a very romantic word. Are we now at a point where human connection is more important than just ‘content?' Or has it actually always been that way? Isabelle: I think human connection has always been important, but I think we're in a place now, obviously, with AI making it so much easier to produce content, and content that looks like so many other kinds of content. I think this is the point, you have lots and lots of content that essentially is all the same. So if we've got 10 romance novels all lined up together, and they're all dealing with similar kinds of tropes, and they've all got the hero and the heroine or whatever's going on in the novels. So if you sit and tell a reader, “Which of these 10 books should you read? Well, this one's about this, this one's about this,” that reader will probably get quite bored quite quickly listening to what all these books are about. If we can tell them something about what the book means emotionally to the author, so if they say, “Well, I was actually led to write this book because I've been through something similar myself,” or, “I'm really interested in exploring how women are treated by their lovers.” If we make it a more compelling story on that human emotional level, th

What are the benefits — and the challenges — of crowdfunding on Kickstarter? How can you fund successfully, as well as make a profit with your campaign? Paddy Finn gives his tips. In the intro, you can find more selling direct resources here; Streaming due for a streamlining [FT]; Authors Guild explores AI licensing deal [Hollywood Reporter]; Sam Altman, CEO of OpenAI on Bill Gates' podcast, Unconfuse Me; AI audio company ElevenLabs in funding deal [TechCrunch]. Plus, follow my book research trip for Spear of Destiny on Instagram @jfpennauthor or Facebook @jfpennauthor. This podcast is sponsored by Kobo Writing Life, which helps authors self-publish and reach readers in global markets through the Kobo eco-system. You can also subscribe to the Kobo Writing Life podcast for interviews with successful indie authors.  Paddy Finn is the author of science fiction and fantasy novels, the CEO of Penny Dragon Games and Starcane Press, and is a Kickstarter expert. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Harnessing the popularity of Dungeons and Dragons on Kickstarter Offering physical objects to accompany your book campaign Why are direct sales and Kickstarter taking off now? The importance of audience ownership Pre-launching your Kickstarter campaign Costing out your campaign to make it profitable Shipping tips, tools, and manufacturing recommendations How to plan a six-figure campaign You can find Paddy at PaddyFinn.com. Transcript of Interview with Paddy Finn Joanna: Paddy Finn is the author of science fiction and fantasy novels, the CEO of Penny Dragon Games and Starcane Press, and is a Kickstarter expert. So welcome to the show, Paddy. Paddy: It's awesome to be here, Jo. Thanks for having me. Joanna: I'm so excited to talk to you about Kickstarter. But before we get into that− Tell us a bit more about you, your writing and publishing background, and how the hell you manage your time! Because you have so many companies doing a lot of products. Paddy: First of all, I don't know how I manage my time. It's a strange one because I started writing fantasy and science fiction novels back in like 2015/2016. Like lots of authors, I've been writing ever since I was a kid and could pick up a pen or a pencil. I started to hear about this self-publishing thing, and I may have started listening to The Creative Penn podcast and a few other podcasts around that time as well. So that kind of gave me some impetus to take this thing seriously. Then I went to a few conferences, and they really encouraged me. Come 2018, I went full time as an indie author and did very well for a few years. Then I saw another opportunity in a slightly, let's call it an adjacent market, I guess, where Kickstarter was doing very well for some people who were creating content for Dungeons and Dragons. I'd been playing Dungeons and Dragons for like seven or eight years at that stage. I figured, hey, I like this thing. It's writing plus a little bit of game design. It's similar, but also different, and it's a new challenge, so let's give that a try. It exploded as soon as we tried it, really. So that was kind of an indicator that, hey, we should keep doing this thing because it's working. So we kept doing that thing. Joanna: So Starcane Press is your publishing house? Paddy: That's correct. So Starcane Press is kind of like a combination of star and arcane because we like to work on science fiction and fantasy. To be honest, when we started with the whole Kickstarter thing and the new industry, really, it took us away from novel publishing. Only in the last kind of 6 – 12 months have we started to circle back to that. It's been a bit slow going, but 2024 is going to be a year where we will really focus again on novels. So we're looking forward to that. Joanna: So for someone like me who, I mean, obviously, I've heard of Dungeons and Dragons, but I don't really understand what kind of products you're creating. So tell us like, what are the products you have been doing for the games? What is the thing you're actually selling with the D&D games? Paddy: It's primarily books. Hardcover books, but also PDFs. We've been leaning very heavily on digital content, specifically PDFs in the past 6 – 12 months. However, the industry does love a hardcover book. The great thing about those two things is that, generally, they're a much higher ticket item than a novel. So a hardcover game book could be anywhere from $40 to $60. If it's a special edition, or like a premium cover, it could be over $100 per copy. Then your PDFs, they can be anywhere from $5 to $35 to $40, just depending on what's in there, how big it is, and whatever the content is. But essentially, it's just a book. Dungeons and Dragons, when I describe it to people, it's like writing, only you're doing it with four or five other people. One person at the table is the narrator, and they control all the minor characters and the antagonist. Then the other people at the table are players, and they control the main characters or the protagonists. So together, you just sit there, and through your imagination you tell a joint story and create this awesome thing. It's an experience, and it's a creative outlet for a lot of people who don't really get a creative outlet these days. So I think it's appealing to a lot more people. Joanna: Yes, and again, I'm just fascinated−before we get into Kickstarter−because this is about products as well, and, as you said, higher ticket items. So are you writing the game for the narrator person to use as an outline for the game? Paddy: Exactly. So it depends. One of the Kickstarters we launched last year that did very well was like a Celtic setting book, which is just a world building book that says, hey, here is a Celtic-flavored world. Here are a bunch of clowns. We kind of drew on the inspiration of Irish, Scottish, Manx, and it's got a little bit of Cornwell kind of mythology. We kind of said, well, if you want to run a game like that in that kind of world, here are a bunch of locations and items and monsters, and just lots of different things that you would encounter in those folktales. They're in this book, and you can lift this book up, and you can now tell a story or run an adventure in this world because you have all the stuff there. Joanna: That actually sounds really fun. I never did gaming. My brother did gaming, and still games. I often feel a little bit kind of jealous that I missed out on this stuff. I know you can start anytime, and I should probably get into it now. It's so interesting hearing about it in terms of the world building because, I mean, that is what we do as fiction authors. We create these worlds and have adventures in it. You also mentioned, I guess as part of the world building− Do you offer physical items to go with the books? Cards or little figures? Or are there other things you offer with them? Paddy: Oh, we do. To be honest with you, it's not necessary, but I tend to get a little carried away with shiny new things. I guess a lot of authors have Magpie syndrome, and I am foremost among them. Yes, so we would have the book, and the core offering is the book in PDF form or hardcover. Usually, we'll also offer like an alt cover of the standard version, which is just a standard book with a different cover on it, essentially. That might be like a limited edition, so it's a bit more. Then a premium cover, which might be like leather bound, or leatherette. On top of that, we might do dice, dice trays, dice vaults, miniatures, maps, posters, card decks with monsters or spells or magic items on them. Really, it's whatever your imagination can come up with and whatever people want to invest in. So we've experimented with a lot of things. We've seen other people in the market do certain things that worked well, and we've gone, hey, let's try that. Also, we've tried our own things. Like the Celtic campaign, the Celtic-inspired one that we launched last year that I referenced before, that was the first time−oh no it wasn't, it was a second time−we tried making a plushie. We made a little leprechaun plushy and a little pooka plushie. A pooka is just like a little gremlin type creature. That was a lot of fun. It's amazing when you go to a manufacturer, and you have to learn how to design the drawings for these things and who to work with. It's similar to doing a novel, in that you work with an artist, you work with different people to help you in different stages of creating your product. Then you work with a bunch of people, it goes through this process, and then you end up with a leprechaun plushie in your hand, and you're like, “Wow, how did that happen?” Joanna: We should say to people, you are Northern Irish, right? Paddy: I am. Joanna: You're allowed to do this. It's not cultural appropriation. Paddy: Actually, we were running some ads, and we got in lot of trouble with some of those ads. Joanna: Yes, I imagine. I'm thinking of all those Irish people who were very annoyed! Paddy: There were a lot of people that were annoyed. A lot of people who weren't Irish as well, and they were like, this is racist, et cetera, et cetera. I'm like, I'm Irish. I'm like one of the most Irish people you know. I speak the language, I play the music, I live in the country. Cut me some slack, please! Joanna: I just wanted to point that out, and also for your accent, if people were wondering. So we're going circle back to the merchandise because I'm so interested in that. Just in terms of what is happening in the author ecosystem, because obviously, there's people like you, Russell Nohelty, and people who've been

I really enjoyed this laid-back discussion around AI tools as part of the creative book cover design process with James Helps from Go On Write. We discuss how generative AI tools can help make more unique and interesting cover designs, and how designers can have a more imaginative time making them. This episode is supported by my Patreon community, who fund my future-focused thinking time. If you join the community, you get an extra solo Q&A show monthly, as well as behind-the-scenes videos on planning for the year ahead, AI and creative business, plus discounts, early access, and more. Join the community for the price of a coffee a month at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn James Helps is a book cover designer at GoOnWrite.com, offering pre-made covers and custom cover design. He also writes articles for authors about the impact of AI at his blog, HumbleNations. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes James' history with computers, AI, and art Various tools for AI-generated images and the rise of text to video Midjourney vs DALL-E and how being an artist makes Midjourney easier to use as you have the language to use it How James uses Midjourney as part of his creative ideation process with a client and how it gives him more scope for imaginative designs, and how it takes more time Is AI a threat to cover designers and/or authors? How our human creative drive and connection is our real differentiator. You can find James at GoOnWrite.com, HumbleNations.wordpress.com, or JamesHelps.co.uk. Transcript of Interview with James Helps Joanna: James is a book cover designer at GoOnWrite.com, offering pre-made covers and custom cover design. He also writes articles for authors about the impact of AI at his blog, HumbleNations, which we're talking about today. So welcome to the show, James. James: Hi there. Joanna: Hello. Tell us a bit more about your book cover design business and how you became interested in generative AI. James: I guess the first thing I'd probably say is I don't really like the word business. It's more that I make covers for people that I like. They come in and chat to me, and I'm just a designer that really enjoys doing covers. I guess when it comes down to the AI stuff, I got interested in that probably around two years ago when there was a lot of stuff in the air. There was like the DALL-E and Imagen that I was reading about quite a lot. I've always been sort of somebody who's looked at technology as a thing. In my history, I did a computer science degree back in the early 90s. As a kid, I was always interested in technology and design. So it's something that I always read about. So I knew AI was coming, but I didn't realize that it was coming that fast. It was actually a friend of mine who's another designer, Craig, who told me about Midjourney. For me, it wasn't completely perfect, but I felt, well, it's time to actually start looking at this and learning about it. So it's about two years, 18 months ago now, that I started playing around with it. Joanna: It's interesting though, you said back in the 90s that you did a computer science degree and that you knew AI was coming, but you didn't know it was coming that fast. Of course− People have been talking about AI since the 90s. So do you think it's all just sped up in the last couple of years, as you say? Because it feels like people think, oh, it's come out of nowhere, but of course, it hasn't, has it? James: No, I mean even in the 90s they were talking about neural networks and how machine learning was working. I think Google, at a certain point, scanned all the books, and all those books that were scanned were used for machine learning to do things, to understand the structure of text. So anybody who's used Google Translate, that's basically AI. I guess the thing that sort of surprised me, looking back on it now, is the fact that it happened just after the pandemic. That's sort of interesting. I've got a theory, which I've told the same theory to my friends, my more tech friends, and they said the same thing. They agreed with me. It's the fact that there was a certain point in the pandemic where everybody was putting money into Bitcoin, and Bitcoin was shooting up and up. So then everybody was trying to mine Bitcoin, and the technology that they needed was graphics card server farms. Then obviously, the pandemic finished, Bitcoin crashed, and there was all these sort of empty server farms, graphics card server farms, so they all became available. I think that was what actually sped up it all just happening at once. There was cheap computing power to actually start playing around with these things. Joanna: That is interesting. I have also heard that, that they need a lot of these types of computers. It is interesting, isn't it, how we need this hardware to make the software to make things like nice images, and of course, words and all of that. We're not talking about the word side today. Let's get into what design services are available right now. It feels like when we started emailing, maybe six months ago, like you mentioned Midjourney and DALL-E. I feel like people are like, oh, these are educators, although DALL-E, of course, is incorporated into Microsoft. What are some of the other tools that have launched in the last six months? James: I guess there's a whole host of things that are happening. Especially with things like video, you've got Runway ML and you've got Pika. It isn't really a book cover thing, but then I started thinking, oh, maybe do a little animated cover, like take your image and have animations. I've kind of played around with them, they're not really there yet. For me, when I started looking at it, I looked at all the services, and I liked Midjourney because it just basically had the best aesthetic, firstly. Secondly, it was a private company, so it's not run by one of the big tech companies. It's not a shareholder company. It was just the best of the lot, really. Also, the guy came on every Wednesday and did a stream about how they're developing it. They're really connected to the user base, as well. So it's just the one that's the best one out there. So that's the one that I use, and it's pretty much the only thing that I'm massively interested in. Apart from this, there's also little tools out there that I use in my sort of day-to-day job. Like there's a background removal service that's powered by AI. There's also a vectorize tool, which is just Vectorize.AI, which is useful for certain tasks as well. So there is other AI bits and pieces that I use. Joanna: A few things there, so you mentioned Pika and RunwayML. Midjourney has also said that they're going to get into generating video this year, in 2024, as we're recording this. So I think that's really interesting, because I'm also a paid Midjourney subscriber. I tried Pika Labs. I also, like you, I was like this is not really there, and Runway looks too technical for me. So I think I'm just going to wait for Midjourney video. James: I think the interesting thing with Midjourney is that they're going about it in a slightly different way as well. The guy who runs Midjourney, David Holz, I think originally he comes from an augmented reality background. He was building like headsets or something years ago. So he has this vision that he wants 3D-generative worlds, like art installations that you can go through. So I think he was talking about video, in terms of having it best in 3D. I found this interesting because when it comes to graphics, obviously, you have foreground and you have background, and then sometimes you want to zoom out, sometimes you want to zoom in, sometimes you want just parallax scroll between things. It's interesting that at a certain point, it will be more that you generate an image, and then you can move around that image to get the right angle, if you see what I mean. So I find that quite sort of a compelling way to look at it. Then obviously, you might want to move and have videos. I think you will get more sort of zoom in, parallax scrolling videos with Midjourney to start off with, rather than those sort of trippy nightmarish things you get from Pika or Runway. Joanna: It's so funny because, again, we're recording this January 2024, and it's going to sound old really fast because within six months, I mean, these things are just going to be amazing. Coming back to some of the other things. Adobe has Firefly, which is generative AI, and then Getty, one of the most expensive stock photo places, now has generative AI as well. So it seems like all the tools that cover designers and graphic designers use in general now have their own AI services. So what do you think about that development? James: Well, it's kind of interesting to a certain extent because, obviously, they're taking technology. Now, where they take that technology from, it might be Stable Diffusion white label or it might be OpenAI white label, where they take the actual technology of training the model. So somebody's got to train the model for Getty or Shutterstock, and it's based on their catalog. But when I've looked at those, they're pretty bad. They're pretty, pretty terrible. The Adobe one is interesting, but it's still somewhat bad. I have a friend, Craig, who's a designer and he's more corporate, he works for blue chip companies. Interestingly enough, he's used Firefly. What he uses it for is more, you get a picture and you want to extend the background. So it's like not really creating things from scratch. Joanna: That's the generative fill, I think. James: Yes, like generative panning across. So like maybe you have mountains in the background, you w

What are the benefits and challenges of selling direct? How can you use limited edition merchandise to add more value to retailers and make more money on a launch? Alex Kava talks about her author business. In the intro, award-winning Japanese writer, Rie Kudan, used ChatGPT to write parts of her prize-winning novel and judges lauded the work as ‘flawless.’ [The Telegraph]; Personal news about my pivot, the Blueprint rewrite, and cleaning up the backlist; plus, I'm on The Alignment Show. Today's show is sponsored by Draft2Digital, self-publishing with support, where you can get free formatting, free distribution to multiple stores, and a host of other benefits. Just go to www.draft2digital to get started. This show is also sponsored by my community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn. Alex Kava is the multi-award-winning New York Times and USA Today bestselling thriller author of the FBI profiler Maggie O'Dell series and K-9 handler Ryder Creed series, amongst other books. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes The struggles that come with traditional publishing Becoming an indie author and taking back control Direct sales as part of the author business model Sourcing and selling quality merchandise Merchandise as an extension of the reader experience The technical side of selling personalized books and merchandise Building your newsletter and marketing your direct store You can find Alex at AlexKava.com. Transcript of Interview with Alex Kava Joanna: Alex Kava is the multi-award-winning New York Times and USA Today bestselling thriller author of the FBI Profiler Maggie O'Dell series and K-9 Handler Ryder Creed series, amongst other books. So welcome to the show, Alex.  Alex: Thanks, Jo. I'm so excited. Thank you for inviting me.  Joanna: Oh, yes, well, we have lots to talk about. But first up–  Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and self-publishing. Alex: Well, I've been in the business now for over 20 years. So I guess as a kid, I was like all the other authors, but for me, I never dreamed that you could actually make a living by writing up stories and writing books.  Both my parents were children of Polish immigrants, and they instilled a very strong work ethic. I went to college on an art scholarship, and at 26, I started my own graphic design company. I was designing anything from corporate brochures to food labels. I still remember spending a weekend in grocery stores, looking to see what colors worked best in the refrigerator sections of the grocery stores.  I still dreamed of writing. That still nagged at me. Remember, in the late 90s, there really wasn't any other way to publish except traditional publishing. I remember somebody telling me that it was easier to win the lottery than it was to get published in fiction at that time.  So after 116 rejections from literary agents for my first novel, I put that aside, wrote a second novel, and found an agent. My first book was published in 2000, A Perfect Evil, and that quickly became an international bestseller.  I quickly learned that in traditional publishing, it's almost as difficult to stay published as it is to get published. You always seemed to be depending on the next contract, and the next contract, and having your publisher define what you were worth.  In the course of 16 books in 16 years, I went through nine editors, three Big Five publishers, and three agents.  Joanna: Wow.  Alex: Yes, I went through the merger of Penguin, Putnam, and Random House. That's where I lost one of my editors who had just brought me over from Doubleday. She was literally gone a week before my first book with her came out.  So that was the second time that I had been orphaned at a publisher. The contract had just started for three books. It was a major contract for $600,000 for three books, but that doesn't mean anything. You know, we always thought that meant something, that they would take better care of you.  Finally, in 2016 at the end of that contract, my publisher said to me, “Well, we're going to have to pay you 20% less this time because paperback distribution just isn't what it used to be.” That's in 2016, and I'm thinking, “Really, paperback distribution suddenly isn't what it used to be?”  The deal breaker for me was that they wouldn't drop the non-compete clause. So I couldn't even go write a book for someone else, or indie pub anything to make up that loss of income. So by everybody's standards, they were offering me still decent money, but they wanted to split it in five payments, which made another difference.  They held onto the non-compete clause. I just walked away. My literary agent thought that I was crazy. I decided that I'm going to trust my readers to tell me what I'm worth. That was in 2016. I released my first indie book nine months later, and I have never looked back. Joanna: I love that because this is actually very common. Like you said, you've been doing this a long time, like 20 years. It's not a surprise that you went through various mergers, you lost various editors, and agents changed. I mean, that's actually quite normal.  Some people might think, oh, well, maybe there's something wrong with you, all of that change. I mean, in reality, this is what happens, isn't it, when it's out of your control. It feels like– You got sick of things being out of your control. Alex: I think it's becoming even worse now than it was then. I remember when I was orphaned at Doubleday, my editor had to retire because she had some health issues unexpectedly, and they were not going to pick up my option at the end of the contract.  So I was writing my Maggie O'Dell series, my FBI profiler series, I was probably in book 10 or 11, doing very well, and my agent's solution to me was, well, we'll go write a standalone. I remember asking him, “Okay, and then what happens?” And he said, “Well, we'll let the publisher decide.” That did not play very well.  I mean, this is what I see, and I have friends who have been down the same route. You're absolutely right, it's not unusual. Their solution is to go write a standalone, go write a new series, because they don't want an old series if they don't have the backlist.  So you'll see authors, oftentimes in traditional publishing, constantly reinventing themselves, constantly coming up with a new series to see if this one will click this time, and never having any control. I tell authors now — The only person who is going to care about your career is not your editor, it's not your agent, it's you. You have to take charge. Joanna: Yes, and I mean, they might care for the time that you are doing well, but even the most successful author can't stay at the top of the charts forever. Then it's someone else's turn, and that seems to be when things happen.  I am interested, though, because I feel like the other thing that happens, I mean, I feel like this now after 15 years as an indie, is a creative confidence and more of a self-confidence. So when you're a new author, you really just don't have that. You don't have the understanding of your craft. Like you said, I'll get my readers to decide. It feels like you made mature creative decisions. If people now are just starting out as new authors, they don't have that creative confidence, I guess. What would you say to new authors starting out? Alex: You know, it's tough, but again, you do have control. There are so many different things with social media that you can do to create a vibe, to create an interest to bring readers directly to you. Remember, traditional publishing is always using somebody else to bring a reader to buy a book.  That was another thing that bothered me. I was not published for very long, and they were sending me to Ingram, and to Baker and Taylor, and to Barnes and Noble's office to have lunch with people. I remember saying to them, “When do I get to meet readers?” They actually kind of laughed at me, like how naive I am. They said that these are the people that are going to sell your books and get your books to who needs to read them.  So they don't have a connection to their readers. That's probably the biggest disconnect that I see in traditional publishing that still exists. So as a new author, remember that you get to talk directly to them.  When you get one, when you get two, when you get three, start that newsletter, start that word of mouth, start building from just your readers that do come to you. That's the best way.  I have been very fortunate because I have readers that are still with me. That's because I built that relationship, despite my publisher not doing it.  So indie authors have a very distinct opportunity, I think, to be able to do that and to go directly to the reader. They have more opportunities to do that than ever before with social media. Joanna: Yes. Well, let's talk about this because I wanted to talk to you because you're doing some awesome things with your direct store. Just tell us a bit about how you do publish. What is your publishing model? What is direct? What is wide?  Why do you like having direct sales as part of the business model? Alex: Well, I like wide for the same reason that I like direct because I don't ever want to be, and I've heard you say this too, I don't ever want to be dependent on one source for my income like I was with a publisher, someone who can like pull the rug out from under you at any one time. So I am wide everywhere. I'm on all of the e-retailers. I would almost said that print is a little bit different, but more and more readers are buying online, so we have the adva

How can we move past our fears to write the books that mean the most to us? How can we write unique and compelling characters that keep readers coming back for more in a series? Barbara Nickless talks about mindset and writing craft in this wide-ranging interview. In the intro, Planning for a Creative 2024 and Trends for Independent Authors [ALLi]; Reflecting on 2023 and self-publishing trends for 2024 [Draft2Digital]; Launch of GPT store [The Verge]; check out the Jo-bot for writing advice; Innovator GPT; Getty launches their own generative AI [The Verge]; Microsoft announced an AI key on their new keyboards [BBC]; Open AI responds to the NY Times lawsuit. Plus, thoughts on shifting to mixed grip and why taking a step back is so important to moving forward; History Quill conference; sort out your DMARC records; my book trailer for Beneath the Zoo, and re-assessing my timeline for 2024, a big election year for the US and UK. Join the community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn Today's show is sponsored by ProWritingAid, writing and editing software that goes way beyond just grammar and typo checking. With its detailed reports on how to improve your writing and integration with Scrivener, ProWritingAid will help you improve your book before you send it to an editor, agent or publisher. Check it out for free or get 25% off the premium edition at www.ProWritingAid.com/joanna Barbara Nickless is the multi-award winning and international bestselling author of the Sydney Rose Parnell crime thrillers and the Dr. Evan Wilding serial killer thrillers. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Tackling fears in order to write The research process for fiction writing Writing for therapy vs. for an audience Tips for writing original characters The writing process of a discovery writer and tools for writing non-linearly Book marketing as a traditionally published author You can find Barbara at BarbaraNickless.com Transcript of Interview with Barbara Nickless Joanna: Barbara Nickless is the multi-award winning and international bestselling author of the Sydney Rose Parnell crime thrillers and the Dr. Evan Wilding serial killer thrillers. So welcome to the show, Barbara. Barbara: Thank you. I'm so happy to be here. Joanna: Oh, yes. I'm so excited to talk to you. But first up— Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing. Barbara: I have wanted to be a writer for as long as I can remember. I think it gelled for me when I was three years old. I had eye surgery when I was three, and when I was in the hospital, we weren't allowed visitors. I just, I took these get-well cards I got from my mom and I started making up stories to write on the back. I just imitated her handwriting, because I didn't know how to write, and then when she could visit me, I would tell the stories as if I were actually reading my writing. So even at that point, I think writing was a healing process for me, and I could escape into the stories.  My first story, I had grand ambitions, Joanna. I intended to write a story about slavery and coming to deal with that. It was a historical novel. I started out with my heroine on a horse, she was going to go to the auction and try to rescue some people. Then I realized I had no idea what I was doing, so she fell off the horse on the second page and died. I had to change the title from “Road to Freedom” to “Trampled by a Horse.” Joanna: That's awesome. Wait, how old were you when you decided to tackle slavery as a topic? Barbara: I think I was about eight. Joanna: I love that. And actually, before we move on there, this is such a common issue, and I've definitely been there too, which is that I'll care so much about this topic, I want to write this really important book that helps people with this topic. And yet, I mean… Have you yet to do your massive book on dealing with slavery? Barbara: I have learned to not overreach, but I have a few books on the backburner I hope to get to. Joanna: Exactly. Okay, so jumping forward from eight— How did you get into professional writing? Barbara: It was a long and varied path. I wrote off and on, and then it when I got my undergraduate degree in English literature, I wrote a fantasy novel as my independent project. Then I went into high tech and spent years working as a technical writer. Oh my gosh, I did so many things. I was piano teacher, I was a cave rescuer, I did this and the other thing and kind of ignored that voice that was telling me to write. Then in 2012, we lost our house and pretty much everything we owned in a wildfire, the Waldo Canyon wildfire. At that point I said, either do this, Barbara, or go work for Amnesty International. I mean, do something. That's what launched the Sydney Parnell series and turned me into a professional writer, much to my amazement. Joanna: Then from there, so you started writing seriously then—So how did your publishing career progress? Barbara: I was so lucky. So I agreed with my husband that I would go to ThrillerFest, which is the International Thriller Writers Conference in New York, happens annually. They have something called PitchFest, which is like one of those dating routines where you sit down with somebody for three minutes, see if you have anything in common, and move on. So with PitchFest, you're pitching your novel to agents and editors. My husband and I agreed that this would be my last—almost my first, and also my last—attempt at becoming a published author. It went wonderfully and I found my agent. I literally made an elevator pitch, so it was in PitchFest that I found my first agent. The book, there were multiple bids for it, and we chose Thomas & Mercer. Joanna: So are you still with Thomas & Mercer for everything? I'm interested because, obviously, we've connected now, but I know you know of the indie world. So how are you spanning both at the moment? Barbara: I am not in the indie world. I'm still with Thomas & Mercer. My skill set is not in everything that has to be done in indie publishing, and I so admire you for the work that you do. So many of my author friends who have chosen indie pub for a variety of reasons, I have great admiration, but it is not my skill set. Maybe I'll go that way, just to keep writing the kinds of books that I want to write. I would love to do a hybrid career, but at this point, it's all I can do to get a book out a year for Thomas & Mercer. Joanna: Fair enough. So I just want to circle back on something you said before, which is you ignored the voice that said you wanted to be a writer, and you did all these kinds of other jobs, and you got into the technical writing and all of that, which I definitely had as well. Obviously, that wildfire was the moment where you were like, I've got to take a chance on something. For people who might be ignoring that voice, I mean, it is a huge risk. I mean, you've gotten to this crossroads, I guess, where you'd already lost so much, so it was less of a risk. But we hope that everyone doesn't have to have a wildfire in order to make a jump. So I mean— Can you speak to the courage needed to step into a new life and some of the wavering that must have occurred? Because it's that beginning, isn't it? That's so hard. Barbara: You're absolutely right. It's a bit like the hero's journey, where sometimes we can choose to cross that threshold and take a new path, and other times we get dropped kicked into our new world, and we have to figure it out. That's what the fire did for me, but I think without that, I ultimately would have learned to listen to that voice. It was fear that kept me away from it. And also, it's very hard in our world to announce, “I'm a writer. You need to respect my time. This is a thing I'm doing.” So at that point, nobody was really paying attention to what I was doing. I was rebuilding, almost literally, our lives after the wildfire. So I could sneak in that time to write. It did not come easily at first because I still carried that fear, and then exactly as you said, it's like, “Oh my gosh, I've lost so much. I've survived. I'm still sitting here. I can do this. If I fail, I'd love to find out now and move on.” I hope that people can dig deep into themselves and find that inner voice, and let that voice speak without worrying about what comes of it. What does it matter if you don't publish? I mean, it's a lovely dream that most writers have, but — The important thing is the story because that's the only thing that we can control. We can't control how the world reacts to what we produce, but the act of producing itself is a balm to the soul. Joanna: Yes, I mean, that's what we have to keep coming back to, and that's why I'm still doing this as well. It's that all the other stuff is making a living, and you can make a living in other ways, you know, but it's the act of creation. You know, I have on my wall here, “Measure your life by what you create,” and that, to me, is the point. It's like, what have I created this month, this year that I feel like I've made some kind of—I don't know. The work, as you say, the work is important to me, but also the work can touch other people. Like we were talking before we hit record, both of us were kind of aware of each other and had read each other's work without actually knowing each other. Then we connected, which is amazing. I did want to ask you on this, because you mentioned earlier that you could have gone down the route of Amnesty International, and you talked before about caring about slavery, so you've obviously got this sort of social justice side of you.

Wherever you are on the author journey, there are some important questions to consider along the way. Joe Solari outlines a strategic step forward for new authors, midlist indies, and those with ambitious financial goals. Plus, what is Author Nation? In the intro, Top 10 trends for publishing [Written Word Media]; Indie author predictions for 2024 [ALLi]; Book publishing predictions [Kathleen Schmidt]; AI in 2024 [MIT Technology Review]; Chat to the JoBot on ChatGPT; Midjourney and video creation [Decrypt]; Business as usual is not an option [TNPS]; Beneath the Zoo in audio and ebook; The Comfort Crisis by Michael Easter. This podcast is sponsored by Kobo Writing Life, which helps authors self-publish and reach readers in global markets through the Kobo eco-system. You can also subscribe to the Kobo Writing Life podcast for interviews with successful indie authors.  Joe Solari helps authors build great businesses through books, courses, and podcasting, as well as strategy and operations consulting. He's also the managing partner of Author Ventures, which organizes Author Nation, coming to Las Vegas in November 2024. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Business strategies for authors at different stages Allocating time and money as a new author Branding for a midlist indie author Financial freedom vs. business expansion. What do you really want? What to expect from Author Nation 2024 Why getting out of your comfort zone is the way to success You can find Joe and Author Nation at AuthorNation.live or AuthorVenturesLLC.com Transcript of Interview with Joe Solari Joanna: Joe Solari helps authors build great businesses through books, courses, and podcasting, as well as strategy and operations consulting. He's also the managing partner of Author Ventures, which organizes Author Nation, coming to Las Vegas in November 2024. So welcome back to the show, Joe. Joe: Thanks for having me back, Joanna. This is awesome. Joanna: I'm excited to talk to you. This is going out as the first interview episode of 2024, so we're going to start with business strategy for authors who want to have a successful year because you're so good at this. There's always so much to do as an author, so we're going to break it down. First of all, for a new author who is just starting out, maybe they have one or two books, they might just even be writing their first book— What are your tips for authors just starting out? Joe: Sure, sure. So I think there's also those that haven't even written a book. This may be the year that first book comes out. I think that for all those people, having a budget is really critical. Understanding the money it's going to cost and time, what it's going to be to get you to that first book and to the point of profitability. So that might be thinking all the way through, say, the next three years. It's a plan, it's not carved in stone. Just by doing that, you're going to have a better idea of your overall costs that you're gonna need to have, and you're going to have something to measure yourself off of. So, I've never had a plan go 100% right. It's really for when you do find that things aren't going the way you thought they were, you can go back and look at that and figure out how far off the rails are you, what could be causing that, and get yourself adjusted. Sometimes that adjustment is, oh, there's this really great opportunity that's presented itself that is better than my plan, and when I evaluate this opportunity against my plan, I should adjust to this. If you don't have that plan, then you could go all over the place. Everything looks better than your non-existent plan. Joanna: I love that, actually, because a lot of people ask me this question. I think understanding it in terms of budget of money and time, and time, in particular, at this point in an author journey. I feel like so many people will have all their questions about how do I get published, or how do I publish a book, and how do I market a book. Then you're like, so have you finished a book? And often they haven't. So, I mean, people only have a certain amount of time to budget for this whole year. What are the things that they should put into that time bucket? And also, I guess, that money bucket, when they're just starting out? Joe: I think the two are intertwined. You know, you've been around this a while, so you've seen it, there tends to be the sense of urgency to get the books published. Like, if I get them out in the market, then they're gonna sell and I'm gonna know something, which is true, but you could publish too quickly. You know, if you're writing certain genres where part of what you have to deliver to the market is a reliability of production, right. So certain genres, it's not just about putting out a book, it's about putting out books in a series. If you don't do that, then you're going to be disappointed in the results. You'll be like, I put this first book out, and nothing happened. Well, you're writing an epic fantasy. I've actually had this conversation with authors writing epic fantasy, and they'll be like, “As a reader, I don't even pick up a series until I know there's three books in it.” Joanna: Yes. Joe: Yet, their series is going to be different, it's going to be magical. Everyone's gonna start buying book one, so they have the money to do book two. And it's like, no. Understanding that this is a startup business with an unproven product or a recently brought-to-market product, and you have to build up trust with your audience that you are going to deliver. Unfortunately, authors have brought this upon themselves in that a lot of unfinished series have left readers cautious. Either that's because you're taking longer to write than you expected, or from a financial perspective. I'll be one of the first people to say, “Hey, listen, this series is a dud. Cut your losses and move onto the next thing.” Well, what happens when we do that? Well, you cut your financial losses, but you've just left some people that have bought those books with an unfinished product. There's a cost to that and we have to understand those are the conditions in the market. So back to the question, being like, make sure you've planned through those things that need to happen, and you understand the time and money component. Maybe what it means is that you take a little longer to publish. Like maybe you don't drop that first book as soon as you thought because you're waiting to save up money to do this, or you're waiting to get more of those books done, so that when they do come out, they're coming out closer together. Joanna: Also, in those earlier days, I spent much more on editors, several different types of editors, because I was learning so much. Even if you're good at one genre, or say, you can write nonfiction, and then you decide to get into fiction or a specific genre. I spent more of my time and money in those early books on the quality side and the craft side. Funnily enough, even though, I have no patience, I did publish my first novel after finishing it, although that did take 14 months. Then after three books, I did rewrite them. So you can do these things in different ways, but I think you're right about that. Thinking about money, and time, and a budget from day one, I don't know, do you think that's normal? I feel like many new authors, they're not even thinking that way. New authors might still have the mindset of, “If I just write one book, I can sell it, get a massive deal, and retire.” Joe: Yeah, I think that this is kind of a small business thing, right? I think a lot of entrepreneurs come into this with a lot of passion and a lot of grit, and they're just gonna do it. Like, I'm gonna make this happen. They never stop to think about like, okay, what can I do? You know, there's millions of people before me that have done this and have succeeded and failed, right? What are the things that the people that have succeeded done? Well, they've been a little more thoughtful. They've planned better. You brought up a really great point about in that beginning book, that time that you need to kind of get your developmental edits and find your voice and really get an understanding of the craft. You know, that's important, and if that takes 14 months in that first book, that you embrace that, right. You think about, like, hey, I'm spending a lot of money on this developmental editor, I want two things to come out of it. I want a really good book to come out of it, and I want to learn so that next time, I don't have to have that level of coaching, that it becomes part of my skill set.  When you start to think about how all those parts become business processes, right, for the product that's coming out. How can I, as the creator, be more efficient in my book production? I think when you start thinking things that way, you start to be a little more gentle with yourself and not put yourself under that pressure that comes with that impatience of wanting to see the book in the market. Now, the flip side is, you can't do that for 10 years. You have to understand that you need to get a book into the market. You need to, at some point, get those first products out there. I've yet to meet an author who's like, “Yeah, I got it right the first time.” Most of us go back and read those books, you know, our future selves go back and read those books and we're like, “Oh, boy. What was I thinking?” Joanna: They're such an important part of the process, and you only learn by doing that. So I know some people listening will be like, oh, well, then I

Happy New Year 2024! I love January and the opportunity to start afresh. I know it’s arbitrary in some ways, but I measure my life by what I create, and I measure it in years. At the end of each year, I make a photobook, and I publish an article here, which helps keep me accountable. If you’d like to share your goals, please add them in the comments below.  2023 was a year of change, culminating in my 15-Year Pivot, and so 2024 will be a year of consolidation and optimization of my new creative and business processes — as well as writing and creating, plus surfing the wave of more change ahead. Joanna Penn writes non-fiction for authors and is an award-nominated, New York Times and USA Today bestselling thriller author as J.F. Penn. She’s also an award-winning podcaster, creative entrepreneur, and international professional speaker. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes J.F. Penn — Spear of Destiny, and the Gothic Cathedral project The Creative Penn Podcast and Patreon Community Streamline The Creative Penn website, redo my Author Blueprint, and update my backlist books Optimize my Shopify stores and Meta ads Experiment more with AI tools that allow me to do more human creative things Speaking and travel, health and fitness Financials As ever, I am a full-time author-entrepreneur and this is my job, so I have a lot of goals. If your goals are simpler — like finishing your book, or publishing for the first time, or selling 1000 copies, then fantastic! You don’t have to have such extensive goals as me.  Please share your goals in the comments so we can keep each other accountable. J.F. Penn — Spear of Destiny, and the Gothic Cathedral project I’m planning on two major book projects, both launching with a special edition high-quality hardback and other exclusive products on Kickstarter, then selling the main editions on my JFPennBooks.com store before publishing wide to all the usual places.  Spear of Destiny, An ARKANE Thriller book 13 will be first, possibly launching in April/May. I’ve already started the research in terms of reading and thinking, and I have a trip booked to Vienna, Nuremberg, and Cologne at the end of January for more in-depth research and story hunting.  Spear of Destiny, cover mockup, jo penn on DALLE3 The Gothic Cathedral project is a chaotic mess of ideas right now, which I absolutely love. I have some vague thoughts on what it might turn into. I trust emergence! There will certainly be a gorgeous limited edition hardback of my photos of Gothic cathedrals which I’ve been taking for over a decade alongside essays on various aspects that go alongside it — beauty, cathedral thinking (long-term thinking and building something that lasts), memento mori, craftsmanship, harmony, gothic sensibilities, and much more.  It will be a non-fiction book under J.F. Penn that aligns with elements of Pilgrimage, and since many of the cathedrals feature in my novels, it also resonates with my fiction. It is very me, and hopefully interesting enough to some of you, too! festive Gloucester cathedral cloisters, photo by J.F. Penn There may also be a mystery novel alongside it, based on a stonemason character I am researching, but I am a discovery writer. I don’t know what I am writing until I commit time to the project and get into it, so that will become clearer as the year goes on. I also want to narrate more of my fiction as part of my ‘doubling down on being human’ approach. I need to do Beneath the Zoo, a short story, as well as the two new books above. I also still need to do Catacomb, but it has a male protagonist so I am hesitating about doing it personally as a female voice.  The first three ARKANE thrillers haven’t been in audio since I re-published the books in 2022 with substantial edits, so I am also considering narrating those, too. But audiobook narration is a big job, and there are other options. I could hire the narration out, and there are also more AI narration options emerging. Somehow I will get everything in audio in 2024. I have sooooooo many other projects in my J.F. Penn folder and I would love to get to a few more of them, depending on how the time goes. I have several stand-alone novel ideas, and also many short stories, so there are lots of options to choose from. But two books could well be enough for my creative bandwidth and I want to give them both time and breathing space. I’m aiming for a short story collection in 2025 or 2026, so I need to be writing them regularly, as they won’t all go into the collection. I really enjoy short stories and have a ton of ideas for them, so I’ll aim to write at least one or two in the year. Learn how to make beautiful physical books In 2023, I published two physical hardback editions I am super proud of. The color photo edition of Pilgrimage, and the gold foil/black ribbon edition of Writing the Shadow, both printed with Bookvault. I want to go a lot further in 2024 and learn the language of physical books, as well as investigate how I can make some more beautiful editions.  I’ll be visiting some custom printers and papermakers, and generally delving more deeply into making books, and of course, sharing what I learn with you. This is part of the over-arching trend of premium physical products becoming more important as the revenue models of digital head towards zero with the rise of generative AI and unlimited subscription and streaming. Beautiful physical books were all the rage this Christmas with sprayed edges everywhere, and in the music industry, vinyl sales were the highest they’ve been since the 1990s, as reported by The Guardian.  The Creative Penn Podcast and Patreon Community The podcast will continue for another year, supported by my fantastic expanding community at patreon.com/thecreativepenn and my wonderful corporate sponsors — Kobo Writing Life, Draft2Digital, and ProWritingAid. I will continue with the weekly show, primarily with news and an interview, as well as sporadic solo episodes when I have something more significant to say.  I’ll continue to share more content in the Patreon community. There will still be the monthly Q&A audio, which is like an extra solo episode every month, plus videos and tutorials on aspects of AI, creative business, mindset, and more. You can join the community for less than a coffee a month (or a couple of coffees if you’re feeling generous!) at www.Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Streamline The Creative Penn website, redo my Author Blueprint, and update my backlist books Now I have shared my 15-Year Pivot, I need to action it. This means cleaning up TheCreativePenn.com and my non-fiction backlist, and making it more evergreen. I’m preparing for the changes that will come with generative search, which I outlined in a recent episode on how it will impact book discoverability.  Amazon has already started experimenting with it through www.amazon.com/yourbooks which can generate recommendations if you click Discovery Mode, powered by AI. It’s in Beta and only on the .com store and I mainly buy on the UK store, but it still came up with some interesting things. There are also no ads on the page so it’s cleaner to buy from, making it a better user experience, but clearly, a more difficult environment for advertisers. This is only the beginning of what generative search might look like …  Amazon.com/your books with discovery mode on, powered by ai (Dec 2023) I also want to rewrite my Author Blueprint and make it available in ePub format as well as PDF. It’s only available through my email list at TheCreativePenn.com/blueprint and if you’re signed up, you will get that (hopefully) by the end of January.  I have unpublished my courses, so you can no longer buy them. If you bought any of them, you have at least six months to go through the material and you can also download the videos, audio, transcripts, and other material for your personal use. I’ll email through Teachable about that in the coming weeks. Optimize my Shopify stores and Meta ads Direct sales was one of the emerging trends of 2023 and 2024 will see it expand even further, as more authors and creatives reach readers directly with their books and more services emerge to cater to them.  Interestingly, these sales are ‘invisible’ to any of the charts or lists, and since Amazon is also opaque with their data, many indie authors are selling tens of thousands of books, and some are making big money in a kind of shadow industry. Even Brandon Sanderson with his $41m Kickstarter didn’t make any list because Kickstarter sales are not counted in any lists. Neither are Shopify or WooCommerce or presumably BookTok sales through TikTokShop, which is a form of direct sales. Perhaps this will change in 2024, or maybe it just won’t matter anymore as the splintering of the business models continues. Personally, I love the freedom (and the profitability) of my Shopify stores — www.JFPennBooks.com and www.CreativePennBooks.com — but there is a lot more I need to do to optimize them, so I will be revisiting my Minimum Viable Stores to take them to the next level in 2024. I have a list of things to do. I just need to action them. I could outsource this, but I have always built my own websites, and I like to tinker, so I will do it myself, it just takes a little longer! I’d like to incorporate merchandise in some way, but at the moment that feels a little out of reach. Perhaps I will do it as part of the Gothic Cathedral project, so I will at least dip a toe into merch this year.  Experiment more with AI tools that a

Another year ends, and once more, it's time to reflect on our creative goals. I hope you will take the time to review your goals and you're welcome to leave a comment below about how the year went. Did you achieve everything you wanted to? Let me know in the comments. In the intro, 2023 was the year that Twitter died — and became X. What that means for me, plus The Verge does an overview. Thoughts on lighthouses and what yours might be, from The Comfort Book by Matt Haig quoting Anne Lamott; “We’re in an artist’s age now,” reflections on the changing author business model from Johnny B. Truant; The Future by Naomi Alderman. This episode is supported by my Patreon community, who fund my future-focused thinking time. If you join the community, you get an extra solo Q&A show monthly, as well as behind-the-scenes videos on planning for the year ahead, AI and creative business, plus discounts, early access, and more. Join the community for the price of a coffee a month at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn Joanna Penn writes non-fiction for authors and is an award-nominated, New York Times and USA Today bestselling thriller author as J.F. Penn. She’s also an award-winning podcaster, creative entrepreneur, and international professional speaker. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes You can read my 2023 goals here and I reflect on what I achieved below. J.F. Penn — Pilgrimage, Catacomb, and short stories Up-skilling into direct sales with Kickstarter and Shopify, and building a fiction-first store Joanna Penn — Writing the Shadow The Creative Penn Podcast and Patreon move to monthly Community Experiment with futurist technologies and share what I learn along the way  Financial goals Travel, speaking, health, and other things Let me know in the comments below how your 2023 creative goals went. J.F. Penn — Pilgrimage, Catacomb, and short stories  Although I wrote and edited Pilgrimage in 2022, the publishing, launch, and marketing all happened in the first quarter of 2023. The Kickstarter for Pilgrimage: Lessons Learned from Solo Walking Three Ancient Ways absolutely exceeded my expectations. It had 692 backers and funded at £25,771. After the initial Kickstarter, I published the book on my Shopify store for a couple of months and then released it wide. You can find it here on my store, here on all the other retailers, or you can order it through your local bookstore or library.   I wrote and published a stand-alone novella, Catacomb, and two short stories, With a Demon’s Eye, and Beneath the Zoo.  I narrated the audiobooks for Pilgrimage, With a Demon’s Eye, A Midwinter Sacrifice, and I need to do Beneath the Zoo and Catacomb in early 2024. I'm committing to narrating as much of my fiction as possible (as human me!) as well as my non-fiction in order to ‘double down on being human.‘ I didn’t write action-adventure thriller ARKANE 13 as intended, but it’s first on my list for 2024. My creative process involves travel to specific locations to find stories, and I didn't make it to Vienna this year, but I have a trip planned for the end of January 2024. Up-skilling into direct sales — Kickstarter and Shopify I’ve significantly upskilled this year in direct sales. I've done two successfully funded Kickstarter projects, learned a lot of lessons, and improved my book marketing for launches. I built a new fiction-first Shopify store, www.jfpennbooks.com and I did a Shopify accelerator with Pierre Jeanty. I’ve added lots of bundles and box sets for both fiction and non-fiction for digital and print products, which makes a huge difference in terms of being able to offer options to readers, and also make advertising worth it. Click here for fiction bundles and box sets by J.F. Penn Click here for bundles and boxsets for authors by Joanna Penn I’ve worked with Matt Holmes on AI-powered Meta advertising direct to my fiction store, and I only use Amazon auto-ads now on a few of my non-fiction books.  Joanna Penn — Writing the Shadow  After more than a decade of working on this book on and off, I finally wrote and published Writing the Shadow: Turn Your Inner Darkness Into Words.  The Kickstarter had 1,059 backers and made £36,454 on launch. I am really proud of the limited edition, gold foil hardback with black ribbon, and I’m encouraged that people want these premium products. I also did a normal paperback, large print, ebook, workbook, and narrated the audiobook. All the usual formats are now out on all the usual stores (but the limited edition was only for the Kickstarter).   It was my biggest book signing ever, with over 430 books signed at the Bookvault factory in Peterborough, UK.  As part of the Pilgrimage Kickstarter, I wrote and recorded a course on Writing Settings and Sense of Place. The Creative Penn Podcast I’ve been consistently podcasting for another year with 63 episodes in total. You can find the backlist episodes here.   The podcast logo changes as I age! I’ve done quite a few solo episodes, which take the longest to prepare: #728 – The 15-Year Author Business Pivot   #727 – How Generative AI Search Will Impact Book Discoverability in the Next Decade with Joanna Penn #718 – Let Your Dark Horse Run. Writing The Shadow With Joanna Penn (audiobook excerpt) #714 – Lessons Learned from 12 Years as an Author Entrepreneur #690 – The AI-Assisted Artisan Author with Joanna Penn #682 – Lessons Learned and Tips from Pilgrimage, My First Kickstarter Campaign #671 – Writing Travel Memoir, Fear of Judgment, Fear of Failure, and Journaling with J.F. Penn Thanks to my patrons at www.patreon.com/thecreativepenn for supporting the show. Your financial support demonstrates that the show is still useful and makes it worthwhile to continue. I really appreciate it! In the last few months, I’ve moved the Patreon to a monthly subscription — the price of a coffee a month, or a couple of coffees if you're feeling generous! I've added video tutorials on various aspects of AI and author business, with much more to come, as well as the usual monthly audio Q&A.  The Patreon is now organized into Collections so it's easier to navigate the content, which I will continue to add to over the coming year. Patreon collections, as at dec 2023 Thanks also to corporate sponsors this year: Kobo Writing Life, Draft2Digital, ProWritingAid, Ingram Spark, FindawayVoices, Kindlepreneur, and WrittenWordMedia. Experiment with futurist technologies and share what I learn along the way  2023 was the year that generative AI went mainstream, and what was futurist is now very much part of the mainstream conversation for authors and the publishing industry. Some of the important developments for authors included the following, all of which I have talked about in the intro to the weekly shows:  Launch of GPT-4 and custom GPTs that allow fine-tuning and custom instructions based on an author’s backlist and style, as well as DALL-E 3 within ChatGPT so you can iterate on an image idea with ‘normal' text rather than prompt engineering, plus multi-modal ChatGPT. Amazon’s investment in Anthropic and offering the Claude model through their AI-as-a-Service Bedrock, plus the beginning of the development of their Olympus model Amazon added AI usage fields into KDP  Amazon introduced a beta, invite-only AI audiobook narration program FindawayVoices by Spotify introducing AI narration for audiobooks with a partnership with Google Play Books auto-narration Further development and roll-out of generative AI image tools like DALLE now incorporated into Microsoft products, ChatGPT Plus, Firefly into Adobe Creative Cloud, AI images sold on stock photo sites, and more.  In 2022, authors and the publishing industry could avoid AI, but it is practically impossible now. Microsoft Co-Pilot is bringing generative AI to MS Word as well as other applications, and Google has brought Duet to Workspace and Docs. ProWritingAid and Grammarly use enhanced AI as part of their functions, and cover designers who use Adobe Photoshop and Creative Cloud have AI generative fill as standard, as well as other generative AI tools. So much has happened in 2023, and I’ve been sharing what I learn in the intro to the podcast as well as in specific episodes including:  #690 – The AI-Assisted Artisan Author with Joanna Penn #727 – How Generative AI Search Will Impact Book Discoverability in the Next Decade with Joanna Penn #701 – 9 Ways That AI Will Disrupt Authors and the Publishing Industry in the Next Decade [2023 Update] with Joanna Penn and Nick Thacker You can find all the episodes and more resources at www.TheCreativePenn.com/future/ I’m also sharing video tutorials and other resources for my community at patreon.com/thecreativepenn including:  Using Claude 100K for analyzing a book and generating sales descriptions My end-to-end process for using various AI tools to write, edit and publish a short story, including the generation of the book cover  Midjourney and DALLE for images — and much more. While I have certainly had my moments of anxiety about what this all means, I come back to two things. (1) Even if AI tools write and create ‘better' books than me at some point, it doesn't matter because I will still write and create. I measure my life by what I create, and even if no one wants the finished result, I will still do it. (2) I can focus on doubling down on being human, and showing you my flaws and my humanity, and (hopefully) enough of you

In this episode, I reflect on 15 years of TheCreative Penn, and outline how I will reposition myself for the next 15 years of being an author entrepreneur. In the intro, We used to do that [Seth Godin]; Penguin Random House has acquired Hay House [Publishing Perspectives]; Business for Authors; Your Author Business Plan; OpenAI has announced a partnership with Axel Springer, the first publishing house globally to partner with them to integrate journalism with AI technologies. This episode is supported by my Patreon community, who fund my future-focused thinking time. If you join the community, you get an extra solo Q&A show monthly, as well as behind-the-scenes videos on AI and creative business, plus, discounts, early access, and more. Join us for the price of a coffee a month at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn Joanna Penn writes non-fiction for authors and is an award-nominated, New York Times and USA Today bestselling thriller author as J.F. Penn. She’s also an award-winning podcaster, creative entrepreneur, and international professional speaker. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes From Joanna Penn to J.F. Penn  From creating alone to the AI-Assisted Artisan Author From digital-focused to creating beautiful physical books From high-volume, low cost to premium products with higher Average Order Value  From retailer-centric to direct first From distance to presence  Pivoting a business is always a risk Will I still be here in another 15 years? Let me know what you think. Are you pivoting your author business? What changes are you making to stay nimble in a fast-moving industry? Do you have any questions? You can leave a comment below, or email me here. Introduction On 8 December 2008, I published my first blog post on www.TheCreativePenn.com. I had already self-published a book earlier that year and wanted to share my lessons learned. The Creative Penn home page in 2008 This is my third website. The first was based on my first book, How to Enjoy Your Job or Find a New One (later rewritten and re-published as Career Change), and the second was on learning about money and investments. I abandoned both when I ran out of things to write about.  But 15 years later, I still haven’t run out of things to write about here!  I left my job to become a full-time author entrepreneur in 2011 and I’ve changed my business model several times over the years as technology, new service providers, and a growing market have expanded our options as indie authors.  I still love what I do. I measure my life by what I create.  I love holding my books in my hands and saying ‘I made this’. But the pace of change is accelerating and I need to pivot and reinvent myself in order to keep creating and writing, as well as remain useful to my community and the wider indie author industry. I also need to keep myself engaged. I’m certainly not the same person I was when I started out, and the last few years in particular have been a period of personal change (as discussed in Pilgrimage and Writing the Shadow). So I found this quote useful from Barbara Bradley Hagerty in Life Reimagined: The Science, Art, and Opportunity of Midlife, “Pivoting on your strengths beats starting from scratch. Redefine success according to your values, not those of the rest of the world.” I’m not going to burn it all down and start anew. I am pivoting! From Joanna Penn to J.F. Penn For the last 15 years, I’ve put my Joanna Penn brand first, writing useful books for authors as I’ve learned, and sharing my journey in order to help other authors along the way Long-time listeners to the podcast and email subscribers will know that I’ve been talking about the Shadow book for almost the entire time, and in 2023, I finally wrote and published it. Writing the Shadow: Turn Your Inner Darkness Into Words is the fulfillment of a long-term creative promise, and alongside How to Write a Novel, and How to Write Non-Fiction, it represents everything I have to share on craft — at least at the moment. When I started out as an indie author, there were very few voices sharing the way ahead, and all the existing writing industry books were for traditionally published authors, so my books were needed. But things have changed and there are many wonderful authors sharing tips and strategies and ‘how to’ information these days. I also think the market for ‘how to’ nonfiction is shifting, which I discussed at length in last week’s episode on the impact of Generative AI Search, so have a listen or a read if you want to learn more. All this means that I don’t plan to write any new ‘how to’ books for authors. I do intend to make my existing backlist more evergreen, so there will be future editions of some existing books, and I want to re-record some earlier audiobooks as (human) me, so expect those at some point.   Many of you have told me that you still find The Creative Penn Podcast useful and my Patron community and the download numbers support this. At the time of writing this, the show has had over 9.3 million downloads across 228 countries, primarily the US, UK, Australia, and Canada. Thank you for listening!  The podcast logo changes as I age! I considered shutting the show down a few years back as I was bored with the content — but then generative AI took off, and the rise of direct sales started, and now we have plenty to talk about again!  So I will continue The Creative Penn Podcast weekly, and share behind-the-scenes business, craft, and AI information and inspiration with my community at patreon.com/thecreativepenn  I’m currently rewriting and updating my Author Blueprint and email list autoresponders, and I will streamline TheCreativePenn.com website content. I will close down my evergreen courses in 2024, more on that below.  The main pivot is to flip the ratio of my time —  from 75% on Joanna Penn, and only 25% on J.F. Penn, to the other way around.  I have so much I want to write as J.F. Penn, and it’s time to let my dark horse run! (More on that in Writing the Shadow.) Of course, I’m not starting from zero with this brand. I started writing my first novel during NaNoWriMo in 2009, and published Pentecost as Joanna Penn in 2011. Back in May 2011 with Pentecost — since then I have re-edited, re-covered, re-titled, and changed my author name I rebranded and re-published it as Stone of Fire by J.F. Penn in 2015, and substantially re-edited the first three ARKANE books in the series in 2022.  In total, I’ve written 15 novels and co-written five more, as well as one memoir, five novellas, and nine short stories, some of which were commissioned and some of which have appeared in anthologies.  JFPenn with fiction, August 2023 As J.F. Penn, I’ve sold over half a million fiction books across 179 countries (mostly in US, UK, and mostly in English). I was an Award Finalist for Best Ebook Original at the International Thriller Awards in 2017 for Destroyer of Worlds. As part of the Deadly Dozen box set in 2014, we hit the New York Times bestseller list (the box set included One Day in Budapest ), as well as the USA Today list. In 2016, I hit the USA Today list as a single author with my ARKANE thriller boxset, containing Stone of Fire, Crypt of Bone, and Ark of Blood. As J.F. Penn, I podcasted for several years on the Books And Travel Podcast as well as writing articles about my travels, and in early 2023, I published my first memoir, Pilgrimage. I also built my fiction first Shopify store, www.jfpennbooks.com  So, I haven’t done too badly even though J.F. Penn played second fiddle — but imagine what I could do if I spent the next 15 years giving her the time, energy, and investment she deserves? It’s time to move J.F. Penn up to first place. It’s time to let my shadow side flourish and get to all the books and stories that are in my queue, waiting to emerge! There will be lots more fiction — books in my existing series as well as standalone, and short stories, but I will also write non-fiction under J.F. Penn too. I’m planning a Gothic cathedral project in 2024, that resonates with Pilgrimage, launching on Kickstarter with a high-quality photo book and perhaps a mystery I have brewing about a stone mason with a deadly secret …  In terms of names, you can call me Joanna or Jo, whatever’s easiest!  From creating alone to the AI-Assisted Artisan Author I love turning my thoughts into reality in the shape of a book. I love making things up, and researching, and working on book projects — and I love working (mostly) alone. But in the last year, I’ve had so much fun collaborating with ChatGPT and Claude as my creative co-pilots. I laugh more, I spark off the conversations we have, my brain feels like it’s on fire with ideas and I have way more creativity than ever before. I’ve outlined my perspective in The AI-Assisted Artisan Author, so I won’t go into detail here, but for the next 15 years, I see my use of AI tools expanding and changing, in the same way that the last 15 years have been shaped by our expanding use of the internet and the industry that has grown up around it. From digital-focused to creating beautiful physical books The launch of the Kindle and the iPhone in 2007 enabled the rise of the successful independent author because suddenly we could reach people all over the world with our ebooks.  The Kindle store back then was almost empty and so the first wave of indie authors were able to sell a lot of books at cheap prices and capitalise on being ne

How will changes to the way people search impact book discoverability? What can authors and publishers do to ensure their books are still found in the new form of generative AI search? While it's still early days for this technology, I share my thoughts in this article, with the hope that we can surf the wave of change, rather than drown in it. In the intro, Launching a series [Wish I'd Known Then]; Selling direct on TikTok Shop [Rebel Author]; Bookbub Best Ads; The State of Indie Authorship [Written Word Media]; Authors can now distribute Google Play Books’ auto-narrated audiobooks with Findaway Voices by Spotify; How to use Google Play Books auto-narration, episode 642; Amazon KDP AI audio narration beta. Plus, History Quill online conference; Beneath the Zoo [JFPennBooks; Other stores]; A Midwinter Sacrifice [JFPennBooks; Other stores]; This episode is supported by my Patreon community, who fund my future-focused thinking time. If you join the community, you get an extra solo Q&A show monthly, as well as behind-the-scenes videos on AI and creative business, plus, discounts, early access, and more. Join us for the price of a coffee a month at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn Joanna Penn writes non-fiction for authors and is an award-nominated, New York Times and USA Today bestselling thriller author as J.F. Penn. She’s also an award-winning podcaster, creative entrepreneur, and international professional speaker. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes How does search work now? How does generative search work with Google Bard and Microsoft Bing Chat? Generative search in ChatGPT — and will Amazon search change in 2024? Part 1: How generative search might change book discovery (1) The text of the book will be used in analysis and discovery (2) Readers will be able to discover cross-genre and niche books more easily (3) Non-fiction that answers questions may be replaced by generative search (4) ‘Generate to market' apps may produce books based on search terms (5) Advertising will become more granular and managed at scale by AI Part 2: What can authors and publishers do to maximise potential book discovery? (1) Make sure your books are discoverable (2) Consider how LLMs get their data and make sure it's up to date (3) Connect with readers on a more personal level You can find more of my episodes, articles and resources on AI here. This is an emerging area, so I certainly don’t have all the answers. I'd love to know what you think in the comments. Thanks to Orna Ross for reading in advance, and also J. Thorn who commented on the draft article to make sure I wasn't off track. J. reports on weekly AI news for creatives at Creative AI Digest, a free weekly email. Introduction Book discovery is going to change over the next decade, and in this article, I share my thoughts on how it might shape out so we can prepare and make sure our books can be found in an ever-growing sea of content.  I’ve been using Google Bard and Microsoft Bing, both generative search engines, in the last few months to see how things might play out. I also increasingly use ChatGPT as a search and discovery tool, both through text and voice, and I used all three services as part of preparing this article. In terms of my personal experience, I’ve been interested in AI for creatives since AlphaGo beat Lee Sodol at the ancient Chinese game of Go in 2016, and I’ve been sharing interviews and resources here ever since. I’ve been experimenting with ChatGPT since it launched in November 2022 as well as using Midjourney, DALL-E, Claude, Sudowrite, and other tools, and I set out my position in The AI-Assisted Artisan Author. As I’ve used the various tools, my search behaviour has changed and I’ve also monitored news and opinion pieces on this topic from others. We are the early adopters for sure, and most people are not even aware of how these AI tools can be used. But it’s clear from the speed of development that the platforms themselves are going to drive the change, and once the most powerful search engines incorporate generative AI, adoption will happen more quickly. We need to be ready for this change. [Note. This article will not cover aspects of copyright, or legal or ethical concerns around generative AI. I’ve covered these in other interviews and articles and in my book on AI – add links] How does search work now? For the last two decades, we have used various search engines to type in a couple of words or a question and then hit enter. This search process works the same way whether you search on Google, YouTube, Amazon, Instagram, Spotify, or any other search engine, and over the years, we’ve learned the best way to phrase our searches to get the best results. The search engine lists pages of links related to the query, and we usually go into the first couple to see if they have what we want. If they match our query, we stay on the site. We read or listen or watch, and maybe we buy a book or a product or service, or sign up to an email list. We become part of the ecosystem of wherever we have landed. If we don’t like what the search engine serves up, we go back and modify our keywords to be more clear about our intention, and try again.  The search engine sends traffic, either organically or through pay-per-click ads, which are placed on popular keywords and keyword phrases. An entire industry has grown up around Search Engine Optimisation and advertising for the various sites we all use, including services for authors like Publisher Rocket, which many indie authors use for Amazon keywords. Most of us don’t usually use particularly complicated searches and we are used to thinking in basic keyword phrases, for example, ‘how to self publish a book,’ or ‘novels about stone carving.’ The latter is one of my actual searches as I have a story brewing about a stone mason, and part of my research process is to order 10 – 15 books on a topic and read them as my ideas percolate. I did this search on Amazon.co.uk and Google.com to demonstrate the results I get at the moment. I used the Amazon Book category to search and here’s what it returned. The first section is an ad about vibrant decorative stones for the garden, clearly not relevant. The next three are books, Art of Letter Carving in Stone, Ancient British Rock Art, and The Forest Woodworker. Again, none of these are relevant to my search. There has been much discussion about how Amazon’s search algorithm is polluted by so many ads that it’s increasingly hard to find what you might enjoy, and many now use different ways to find books to read. Google’s response to the same search is a lot better, with book covers that relate to stone, including some novels, which all link back to Amazon and Goodreads. The top section is again based on ads, but it’s relevant so I don’t mind. I clicked through to some of these and I bought Lapidarium: The Secret Lives of Stones. Oh, the joys of book research! How does generative search work? Generative search is different in several key ways. First, it is a back-and-forth conversation, so the search becomes more granular with every response, uncovering deeper aspects of the user intent and also what they really mean. Second, it may provide a complete answer to a question, not just a list of links, although this is more likely if there is no ‘buyer intent.’ As Fortune magazine reported in October 2023, “as the quality of AI-generated answers improve, users will have less incentive to browse through search result listings. They can save time and effort by reading the AI-generated response to their query … All the biggest search engines have already adopted or are experimenting with this approach.” Google Bard explained, “generative search employs AI algorithms to process the nuances of natural language queries, extracting meaning and context to deliver insightful and tailored responses. This intelligent approach goes beyond simply providing links; it attempts to answer user questions directly, providing summaries, explanations, and even creative text formats like poems, scripts, and musical pieces.” Generative search algorithms can analyze user behavior, search history, and preferences to tailor search results to each individual's interests. When a reader searches for a book related to a genre or theme they enjoy, generative search can prioritize results that match their taste, increasing the likelihood of them discovering books by specific authors. Generative search can also go beyond simply providing search results; it can actively recommend books to readers based on their past reading habits and preferences. This personalized approach can introduce readers to new authors and genres they might not have encountered otherwise, potentially leading to increased sales for those authors. ChatGPT said, “Think of it as a wise sage that learns from each interaction, continually refining its understanding of what the user seeks. It doesn’t just respond to direct queries but anticipates needs based on a mosaic of data – past searches, user preferences, and even subtle patterns in browsing behavior … It interprets the intent and context behind a search, offering results that are not just relevant but also insightful and often surprising. It's the difference between asking for directions and being guided on a journey.” ChatGPT goes on, “Generative search, unlike its predecessor – the traditional search engine, doesn’t just find paths; it creates them. It’s akin to having a compass that doesn't point north, but instead, poin

Do you want to publish an image-heavy book like a cookbook? How can you navigate the challenges of photography, book design, and publishing choices to make the best product possible? Jane Dixon-Smith shares her lessons learned from her first cookbook. In the intro, Brandon Sanderson's predictions about publishing [Daniel Greene]; Craig Mod talks about walking and beautiful books [Long Form, Things Become Other Things]; Writing the Shadow [CreativePennBooks; Other stores]. Today's show is sponsored by Draft2Digital, where you can get free ebook formatting, free distribution to multiple stores, and a host of other benefits. Get your free Author Marketing Guide at draft2digital.com/penn Jane Dixon-Smith is a historical fiction author, an award-winning book cover designer, graphic designer, and adventurer. Her latest book is The Great Adventure Baker. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes How adventure can keep your creative side alive Making a cookbook personal and unique Editing and testing the recipes Tips for producing the best photos without professional equipment Choosing the images for a photo-dominant book Choices in design and publishing Working with designers to incorporate AI into your designs You can find Jane at JDSmith-design.co.uk. Transcript of Interview with Jane Dixon-Smith Joanna: Jane Dixon-Smith is a historical fiction author, an award-winning book cover designer, graphic designer, and adventurer. Her latest book is The Great Adventure Baker. Jane also designs my book covers and print interiors, so I am a huge fan of her work. So welcome back to the show, Jane. Jane: Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure to be here. Joanna: It's gonna be exciting to talk about this because so many people want to do cookbooks, but there are many challenges. Before we get into that— Tell us a bit more about your adventuring side of your life and why you decided to do a baking book at this point in your creative career. Jane: Well, I got into adventuring properly, probably about five years ago. I needed a bit of time away from my desk because I just sit here all the time designing and all of that kind of thing. And living in the lakes, we have just tons of stuff right on the doorstep. I joined some groups on Facebook and started walking with different people and taking tray bakes along with me, which everyone seemed to really love. I'd get asked for the recipes, and I'd quite happily give my recipes out. I wasn't particularly protective of them, like some people I've come across in the past have been. So I'd just quite happily send the recipes to people and they can make them themselves. Taking the bakes on adventure days meant that I didn't get fat! You burn the calories off so you get to eat the cake. So it was kind of guilt-free baking for me. Then last year, my mum passed away at the beginning of the year. I think that was the spur really for me to actually do a book on baking. I had thought about it in the past, but I didn't have a real reason to do it. I thought there's so many baking books out there, and why would I do one? But when I combined it with the fact that it was aimed at people going into the outdoors, and I could include some of my mum's recipes as well and dedicate it to her, that's what really sort of got me going with it. And obviously, it's quite an easy thing for me to do, in terms of already being a book designer, to actually put it all together. Joanna: I think you're right. There are family reasons, a lot of people hand down recipes. I know some of your mum's recipes are in there as well as your own. I just wanted to come back on the adventuring. So you mentioned the lakes, so for people listening, that's the Lake District in the UK. Can you also maybe comment on how— How has getting away from your desk and doing the adventuring helped your creative side? And how does being active play this really important part in your life now? Because it does seem like this is so important to you. Jane: Yes, I think it's just getting that balance right of spending time sedentary at your desk, and also spending time doing something really active, and especially getting outdoors when I sit inside all the time. My kids got a little bit bigger and went to secondary school, and I had a lot more time on my hands. Because I work for myself, I can manage my time and go out in the week when all of the busy places and the popular mountains are really quiet. So that was a really nice aspect of it. I've got up to Scotland, I do a lot in Wales, even went out to the Alps last year as well. So it's sort of really taken on a life of its own. I've got to meet loads and loads of lovely people as well. So it's been really nice. Joanna: I think that's really encouraging. Just so people know, you've got what, three kids? Jane: Yes. Joanna: So you're a busy working mom, and you've managed to bring this into your life. I love your pictures on Facebook. It's like, oh, wow, Jane's up another mountain. [You can find Jane's adventure pics on Instagram @jds_epicadventure ] Jane: I take so many photos. I was taking loads and loads of pictures of my baking on the mountains anyway, and I'm generally taking pictures when I'm out and about. I've got millions of photographs of being on a mountain, me being on a mountain, tons of selfies, tons of pictures of other people, lots of pictures of baking. They're the pictures that people liked were the pictures of baking on mountains, apparently. It's a bit strange. Joanna: That's great. So a lot of people do want to publish a cookery book, but let's go into each of the challenges one at a time. First of all, recipes. It's really interesting, you can't actually copyright a list of ingredients. So most recipes, you can't copyright them and anyone could take a recipe and put it in a book. So how did you think about that? How did you make the book more personal, in terms of writing the recipes and comments and stories, to make an original product? Jane: I mean, the recipes themselves, the ones that I've either adapted or have been passed down to me, and I don't always know exactly where they've come from, but you're right, you can't copyright the actual list of the ingredients. And you obviously can't directly copy the written aspect of the method, but you can obviously write the method as you would do it. Also, I tweaked recipes from those that I'd been given or handed, changed different things. Obviously, I tried all of the timings myself, tweaked timings. So they are sort of like probably not original-original set of recipes, but they're certainly tried and tested ones that I've been doing for a very long period of time.  I also wrote short intros to each of the recipes about what they mean to me, little tips and places that I'd taken them, where they came from, why they mean a lot to me, and that kind of thing. So I'd included that as well. And obviously, I did an intro about why I've done the book and what it meant to me. So there's a lot of sort of little personal bits and pieces in there, not just a list of ingredients and a method. Joanna: I think that is so important with any nonfiction book these days, but certainly the reason why people have so many cookery books. You've probably got tons of baking books, right? Jane: Yes, millions. Joanna: Exactly. So this is what's so great about a cookery book and a baking book, and many of these books, people will buy lots of them, but they want those stories. It's like it's not just another flapjack, you know, it's personalized. Jane: Plus, it's a flapjack I've made a lot of times. It's definitely a good flapjack! Joanna: We should say, in case people do want to get the book, The Great Adventure Baker, that these aren't things that you were baking out on the mountains, you were baking them at home. So this is based on home cookery. Jane: It is, yes. It's not just something that you need to take on an adventure, you could take it anywhere. You could take it to a picnic, you could just have it at home. I adapted all of the recipes. Some of them originally, like my recipes I had at home, would be this sort of like round cakes in a round cake tin and things like that, and it's not really packable for taking out. So I converted them all, so they're like tray bakes. So they're easy to stick in a Tupperware container, basically, and take with you wherever you're going. So that was another aspect of it, I had to convert them all. There was other recipes that I had to convert. There's one of my mom's in there, and you can apparently buy tins of condensed milk in kilos, which is probably not very good for you. But she'd made them at farmer's markets, so she was making lots and lots. So I had to work out the quantities for bringing it down into just a normal-size domestic tray bake as well. So there's bits and pieces like that in there that I've explained as well. Joanna: So I did wonder about how the editing process would work with a book like this. I mean, you could send it to an editor for just the words, but— Explain how the editing works in terms of testing the recipes. Jane: I pulled all the recipes together and typed them all out, ready to be in the book. Then I photographed them, and I made them from the recipes that I typed to make sure that the quantities were right and that my method was right. I'm not very good at remembering my own recipes, so I always do it from a printed out recipe, a written down recipe. So I typed them out, I had them ready and set out in InDesign, and then I made them all to photograph them.  Then also I got my kids to make them fro

How might subscriptions help expand your author business ecosystem? What are some tips on encouraging readers to buy direct? Why is the future looking positive for authors in the creator economy? Michael Evans gives his thoughts. In the intro, marketing for multi-genre authors [Self Publishing Advice]; Same as Ever: Timeless lessons on risk, opportunity, and living a good life by Morgan Housel; Year of the Locust by Terry Hayes, and what we can learn from both of these books. Plus, join me and Joseph Michael for a free webinar on Using AI as an author, 5 Dec 2023. Click here to find out more. Today's show is sponsored by Ingram Spark, which I use to print and distribute my print-on-demand books to 40,000 retailers including independent bookstores, schools and universities, libraries, and more. It's your content—do more with it through IngramSpark.com. Michael Evans is the author of science fiction thrillers, as well as Subscriptions for Authors and Creator Economy for Authors. He's also the co-founder of Ream, a subscription platform that helps authors create a thriving paid membership for their readers. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below. Show Notes Finding the courage to try something new What subscriptions are and how authors can use them Who does well on Ream and other subscription-based platforms Creating incentives for readers to join subscription-based models Monetizing the idea of exclusivity and scarcity The importance of building trust with your audience Michael's optimism for the future of publishing You can find Michael at ReamStories.com and SubscriptionsForAuthors.com Transcript of Interview with Michael Evans Joanna: Michael Evans is the author of science fiction thrillers, as well as Subscriptions for Authors and Creator Economy for Authors. He's also the co-founder of Ream, a subscription platform that helps authors create a thriving paid membership for their readers. So welcome to the show, Michael. Michael: Thank you for having me. It's so wild, but really cool, to be on this end of the mic. I've been listening to you since the beginning. Joanna: Thank you so much for coming on. So first up— Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and publishing. Writing's been an instinct for me since the youngest age, where I've just loved storytelling, mainly through fanfiction. I didn't realize I was writing fanfiction at the time because I was writing it in journals. I was a little insecure about my writing — it was my journal.  I didn't start to think of myself as an author, didn't start to actually start to write my own worlds and stories, until I got into middle school. My parents had gotten divorced, and for me, just coping with what was a very disruptive time my life was writing. It was my escape. I had simultaneously become super passionate about technology in the future, but also disillusioned with it, and kind of felt like the answer to creating a better world wasn't just creating new technologies, but was instead like trying to figure out what is actually best for people. That's where stories came in. So I started writing, and I wrote for two years, between 13 and 15, very seriously religiously, and had kind of written two books by the end of that. I didn't like even think of it like in terms of publishing. That wasn't even a thought of mine. It was just for fun. But when I got to the end of the second book, I was like, maybe I could get this out in the world. My mom, she was like, let's see what's even possible. She looked up like self-publishing, and basically, your name came up. So she actually bought your book and gave it to me, and I read it. Then we discovered the Sterling & Stone guys, and they were great. That kind of got me into the world of like, oh, okay, I can do this. Then basically, in high school, I was like, okay, I'm gonna work a part time job during school, I'm gonna save up all my money. My mom, normally I would have had to spend money on getting a car and things like that, but my mom was like, I'll drive you to work. She was the most supportive person ever, like I love my mom. So she's like, okay, I'll drive you to work, you can have this job, so you can save up all of your money. And I was like, okay. So I did that, I worked as a pool attendant at a resort. I just put all of it into editing, cover design, we all know the expenses that come with being an author. I published my first book going into my sophomore year of high school. I guess I caught the bug, I fell in love, not only with obviously writing itself, but also the business of writing. I got the idea that maybe I could be a full time author. That actual adventure, I cannot even dive into full detail right now, but over the next few years I ended up publishing 12 books, I ended up getting super deep into KU, Facebook ads, Amazon ads, learning a lot about different areas of the publishing ecosystem. Then I went to YouTube. Then I went to live streaming right when I got to college. That was another adventure. We did a road trip around the country. I was a creator partner with a startup that was founded by Sean Parker called Airtime, who was the first president of Facebook, and that started to connect my mind on a few things. One, I always loved YouTube, specifically Hank and John Green were some of the people who made me feel like I could write a book. And for those who don't know, Hank and John Green, they're awesome. Joanna: Yes, they are fantastic. Michael: They are fantastic. And then finally — When I got onto YouTube, to live streaming, I started to see what other areas of the creator economy were doing. I just felt like there were so many different areas that authors could move into with direct sales, building community, different product lines in terms of merch, and that in a way, we just needed the tools to help us do that. So then I got super passionate about building technology that could actually help a community of people that I loved and cared about and was a part of, which was indie authors, and specifically, fiction authors. Then about a year and a half ago, I started Ream with Emelia and Sean. That's how I got my start on all of this, and it's been an incredible adventure. I feel like the luckiest guy in the world to be able to just do what I love. That's what it's all about. Joanna: And what I appreciate about you—we've met in person in Austin, wasn't it? Michael: I think it was Phoenix. Technically I think Scottsdale, somewhere around Phoenix. Joanna: Okay, it was last year or something. But you don't seem to hesitate when it comes to jumping into things, and you experiment, and you try stuff, and you have a go. So I did want to ask you about that because I'm sure some people listening are like, how has this guy done all these different things? Also, given that you learned about self-publishing from me while you were still in school kind of makes me feel old. But in terms of this attitude to jumping in and trying things, is that something you've always had? And can you give any tips to people listening who are like, well— How do I get the courage to jump into trying something if I've never done it before? Michael: Totally. I mean, for me, I definitely had an aptitude for risk-taking, like I love it. The adrenaline of trying something new, seeing it it'll work out, going all in, that's like what I love. I love taking risks. So that's just me, that's where the author entrepreneur comes out, especially the entrepreneur part. Michael: Not everyone has the same risk tolerance. Not everyone has the ability to take the same risk. But we all have 24 hours in a day, we all have the resources we have to do things, and we all hopefully have some goals and dreams that we want to work towards. What's always been most helpful to me is keeping the long-term vision in mind. Whenever I've struggled is when I've swayed away from that. I'm definitely like a high futuristic type of person ,and I think we relate on that, Joanna. What I always would mess up on, like in my dark moments, because I obviously did like the movie trailer version of my life. There were some really dark moments, in self-publishing specifically, when I was running Facebook and Amazon ads, I would say there was a moment where my going all in on things was a huge detriment. I started spending a lot of money on Facebook ads before I really validated the read-through of my books. So I was kind of I would say, quote, unquote, gambling on a certain read-through calculation.  For those who don't know what read-through is, read-through is the idea that if one reader comes in and reads book one, and maybe you're selling it for like $5, so then you get maybe $3.50 in royalties, if you're on a retailer, roughly that. Read-through is the idea of if you're writing in a series, or even if you have multiple books under a pen name, that when you spend money on ads to acquire a reader and bring them into selling a book, they're also going to read more of your books. Therefore, you could technically advertise book one at a loss and still make money over the next few months. Now, I say technically because that didn't happen for me. I didn't have that high of a read-through. That was something that I should have spent more time actually slowing up, reading more of my subgenres, and reflecting more on where I wanted to be, the long-term vision. I was super caught up in, how can I get to $1,000 a month on Amazon, like yesterday? How can I get to $10,000 a month ASAP? Which I never hit to $10,000 month, I think my biggest month was like $1,300 or $1,400, and I spent like $1,100 on ads.

How can you transition into being an author after a long-term career elsewhere? How can you adopt an attitude of service in order to build your network in an authentic manner? Patrick O'Donnell shares his tips. In the intro, Spotify subscribers in the US now have 15 hours of free audiobook listening [The Verge] — you can find most of my books there if you want to give them a try! Plus an update from 20BooksVegas, which will now be Author Nation; and signing my gold foil hardbacks of Writing the Shadow. In AI news, ChatGPT is now multi-modal, and can also be fine-tuned as GPTs and made into agents. You can try out Creative Writing with The Creative Penn, or Write Thrillers like J.F. Penn, trained on my books. Plus, join me and Joseph Michael for a free webinar on Using AI as an author, 5 Dec 2023. Click here to find out more. This podcast is sponsored by Kobo Writing Life, which helps authors self-publish and reach readers in global markets through the Kobo eco-system. You can also subscribe to the Kobo Writing Life podcast for interviews with successful indie authors.  Patrick O'Donnell is a retired police sergeant with 25 years’ experience. He's now the author of nine books, including police procedurals and the Cops and Writers reference guides, as well as a podcaster, screenwriting technical consultant, and organizer of the Cop Camp Conference. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Becoming a writer after a significant first career Dos and don'ts of finding a mentor Being of service and volunteering with purpose Knowing when an author relationship clicks Writing entertainment vs. writing for therapy Cop Camp — What it is and why host it? Managing different energies in an author conference You can find Patrick and CopsandWriters.com. Transcript of Interview with Patrick O'Donnell Joanna: Patrick O'Donnell is a retired police sergeant with 25 years’ experience. He's now the author of nine books, including police procedurals and the Cops and Writers reference guides, as well as a podcaster, screenwriting technical consultant, and organizer of the Cop Camp Conference. So welcome back to the show, Patrick. Patrick: Well, thank you so much, Joanna. It's an honor and privilege to be on your show. Joanna: I'm excited to talk to you again. Now, you were last on the show in 2021, where we talked about your background in the police and also tips on writing authentic crime fiction. So we are not talking about that today. Patrick: Okay, good. Joanna: Exactly. We've done that already. People can come over to your Cops and Writers for that. Your second career is really taking off, and I wanted to start with this because, obviously, you were a police sergeant for 25 years. Then you decided not to retire, you decided to really go for it in your second career. So I wonder— What are your tips for people who want to be writers after they've had such a significant first career in a different industry? Patrick: Well, I'm a big fan of the saying, “Dig the well before you're thirsty.” I had the luxury of knowing when I was going to retire from law enforcement. My first day in the police academy was January 16, 1995, and I knew January 16 of 2000 that I was eligible to retire, and I did. I knew that I was going to do that pretty fairly early on because I didn't get into the police academy and become a cop until I was 30, which is a little bit on the older side. So you don't want to be too old doing police work. That's a young person's job. It's not an old guy like me job. So I knew that. I absolutely loved law enforcement, I loved what I did, I loved where I worked, but I knew the time was coming. So it was looming on the horizon. So a few years before I knew I was going to leave, I was thinking about what I wanted to do, or more importantly, what I didn't want to do. Law enforcement is very regimented. Lots of rules, lots of SOPs, and all that kind of good stuff, and I wanted freedom. I wanted freedom of work and freedom of when and where I work. With writing, there's still deadlines, and there's things you have to do, but there's a lot more flexibility and that had a huge appeal to me. So that was the precipice of that. I really enjoyed that idea. So as far as learning, that's ongoing. I believe if you're a writer, you should be a reader, and reading with purpose. So if you want to write sci-fi or post-apocalyptic, start reading some good books in that genre. You'll start to pick out tropes and how the author is doing what they're doing. You can buy courses, books, listen to podcasts, and get some mentors. A lot of it's on-the-job training. Hopefully, the more books you write, the better you get. Joanna: I think one of the difficult things for people who are later on in life is this feeling of, I've just climbed this ladder, and now you're telling me I've got to go to the bottom of the ladder and start again. So how did you get round that mindset of— Oh, my goodness, I'm starting again later in life. Is it too late? Patrick: No, never. I think what I was thinking was, you know, it's like, I was a boss. I was in charge of these like huge complex crime scenes. Lots of homicides, lots of shootings, lots of serious stuff. That was one of the things about being a sergeant was I had to respond to shootings, homicide, sexual assaults, armed robberies, et cetera, et cetera, fire, dead body, whatever. It was nice walking away from that and doing something completely different. That part I really, really enjoyed. It was like, okay, now this is something completely different. It's almost like cleansing your palate. I truly enjoyed just walking away from law enforcement. Like I said, I love the job and all that, but this had a lot of appeal to it. You have to have the mindset of, okay, I'm starting over again. I'm gonna make mistakes. I'm a rookie again. It's almost like being back in the police academy, if you want to look at it that way. From my point of view, looking through my lens, it's like, okay, I'm a rookie again. How did I learn when I first got on the job? Well, I had mentors that helped me along. So that was also a big part of it. I made relationships with authors that were a lot better at this than I am, and that helped out quite a bit. Joanna: Yes, you have been very good at networking. I want to comment there on mentors because I find that some people— Like I get emails all the time that say, “Will you be my mentor?” And you're laughing. Okay, so why are you laughing at that? Patrick: I'm laughing because I can only imagine how many you get because you are very popular and most would say you're very successful. So I could see people who may not even know who you are all that well, or maybe not even have ever read one of your books, or listened to your podcast. It's like, well, I'll get a mentor, and then everything's gonna be hunky dory. But it doesn't work that way. Joanna: So how does it work? How would you go about it? Or how have you? Because you've done very well. Patrick: Well, you know what — The way I looked at things as far as networking with other authors and getting mentors, is being of service. And the way I can explain that is, okay, you know, I really got into 20Booksto50k, and I thought, well, I really enjoy the idea of being an indie author, and the people there were so nice and so ready to help you out, but I'd be of service. So the first 20Booksto50k conference, I wanted to volunteer. I also wound up being an admin for the 20Booksto50k Facebook group. I was volunteering with purpose. It's like, okay, what can I do to help somebody? So eventually, I wound up going to different writers conferences, and I'm still a rookie writer, and people would just start coming up to me, and they're like, “Hey, you're that police guy, right?” And I'm like, I don't have a t-shirt on or a sign saying I am, but sure, why not? And inevitably, they would have a question for me. And I'm like, okay, so my specialty or niche was police stuff. So I'm considered an expert. When I testify in court, I'm an expert in police procedure, all that kind of good stuff. So a lot of people have questions for me, but a lot of these authors were further along in their journey than I was. So I was able to give them something, and then it wasn't a huge ask if I said, “Hey, you know what, I'm kind of stuck on this, ‘whatever.' Could you give me a hand?” Now, I wouldn't just email somebody, any of these people, and say, “Could you be my full-time mentor?” That's a huge ask. That's a big, big ask. That's like almost asking somebody that you don't even know and saying, “Hey, could you read my book and do a blurb for me?” Joanna: I get those, too! Patrick: I'm sure you do. But that's a big ask, and you know, relationships are two-way streets. It's like— What do you have to offer them? That's the way I looked at things, and that's the way I kind of conduct my business. Joanna: I love what you said there being of service and volunteering with purpose. It's so interesting, because it is the balance, isn't it? Because if you just volunteer and volunteer and volunteer, and you never do the ask, so you do at some point, you know, either people will offer to help you or you get to ask because you have almost done your time. I guess, as you said about being a rookie in any career, you're not that useful at the beginning, to be honest. You have to do your time. Patrick: Right, but you might have something to offer somebody that's further along than you that others don't have. You might have some unique skill set. Joanna: Or even as you sai

How can you shift your mindset from catalog sales to selling direct? How can you reframe the direct author business model to take advantage of creative possibilities for different kinds of products and long-term marketing? Russell Nohelty gives his tips in this interview. In the intro, Top 10 tips for indie authors [Clare Lydon]; 10 years lessons learned [SJ Pajonas], My timeline of being an author; Using AI tools for fact-checking [The Blue Garret]; Today's show is sponsored by Draft2Digital, where you can get free ebook formatting, free distribution to multiple stores, and a host of other benefits. Get your free Author Marketing Guide at draft2digital.com/penn Russell Nohelty is the USA Today bestselling author of fiction, graphic novels and comics, nonfiction, and books for authors, including This is NOT a Book: Musings on living a writerly life. His latest book is Direct Sales Mastery for Authors, co-written with Monica Leonelle, launching as this goes out on Kickstarter. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes The mindset shift of selling direct Catalog sales vs direct sales The benefits of a direct relationship to customers and reframing the more personal touch experience Creativity in campaigns and print possibilities with direct sales Direct book marketing Keeping a long-term perspective and the flywheel concept of an author business You can find Russell at RussellNohelty.com and his Kickstarter at WriterMBA.com/DSA Transcript of Interview with Russell Nohelty Joanna: Russell Nohelty is the USA Today bestselling author of fiction, graphic novels and comics, nonfiction, and books for authors, including This is NOT a Book: Musings on living a writerly life. His latest book is Direct Sales Mastery for Authors, co-written with Monica Leonelle, launching as this goes out on Kickstarter. So welcome to the show, Russell. Thank you so much for having me. It's been a career-long dream to be on this show because I've been listening to it for so long. So I'm very excited. Joanna: Oh, I'm super excited to talk to you. You're kind of one of my gurus at the moment. You and Monica are doing such a great job of educating people on this. But first up— Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and publishing. Russell: Sure. So I started my first creative business in 2004. I went out on my own as a freelance camera operator after graduating from college, and that didn't really work very well. It turns out, there's a lot of technical stuff you have to know about cameras and editing and all sorts of things. I was very good at visually seeing an image, but like doing all of the actual recording of video and such, it wasn't really what I truly loved. Then I moved to doing directing, and then I realized no one hired directors, they all wanted to direct their own stuff that they wrote. So I was like, well, I've read a bunch of the scripts that I've been on camera with, and they're all not very good. So I could probably do at least this good. That's kind of been the thing of my entire career. It was not saying I could do this really well, it's like, well, I can do at least this well. I had a bunch of publishing contracts, and they all went very badly. I found out that they were just putting my books on Ingram Spark and stuff, and I was like, I could do that. I don't know if I can release this book any better than these publishers, but I know for sure I can release them just as bad. So that's how it sort of was a career of going from photography, to directing, to writing movies and TV. Then I got into comics when the movies and TV thing didn't really work out. Then comics are really expensive, and they take forever, so I started writing books in the interim between comic projects. Then I fell in love with books, and then books turn into conventions, and conventions turned into me writing nonfiction books, and nonfiction books led to courses. It just kind of was an organic snowball effect that I come back and say, wow, I don't think I would ever tell any other human to do it that way, for sure. Joanna: I love that though. I mean, I did do a plan back in the day, but a lot of this career is just taking the next opportunity and sort of deciding to take the next step. So it's interesting, you mentioned you started off in visual creativity with camera operator and script writing and that kind of visual sense. Is that why you favored graphic novels and why you still do a lot of very visual projects? Do you think you're much more of a visual person than a lot of the text-based writers? Russell: I think that it just makes sense to me how visuals work. So yes, like my manager at the time told me I should do comics, and I was unconvinced until he handed me a whole stack of like new indie comics that were coming out at the time. I fell in love with them, and like it just immediately made sense. And when I started writing books, I actually took movie and TV scripts that I had, and I started to write them and flush them out. I'm not a planner, but I do write a beat outline, and at least try to hit the big beats, the action plot beats that move the plot along. So all of my books are about kind of moving around the set pieces, everything kind of leads to that. That's how my brain worked in movies and TV, and it's still, even now, 40 books in. Even when I write nonfiction, I'm like, what is the set piece moment that we're building all of this climax to? Joanna: So let's get into the direct sales piece because it really does seem like there's been an explosion of interest in direct sales, really in the last year to 18 months. So I wondered, so like take us back— When did you do your first Kickstarter? And why do you think it's taken so long before this is starting to go mainstream now? Russell: Sure. So I did my first—it wasn't even a Kickstarter, it was an Indiegogo campaign—in 2011. Then I did another one, I think, in 2012. I did my first Kickstarter in 2014, which is when I really started taking it very seriously, after I took all of the rights back from my publishers. I started doing them because it's weird working in so many different publishing areas because I feel like they've all got about 10-15% of the answer, and they don't talk to each other. So nobody ever learns like what the other pieces are. You find a lot of the most successful authors also were doing a lot of different formats, and they're learning from all of these different formats.  The thing is that when you do comics, there is no aftermarket for comics after Kickstarter. Like there are no retailers, aside from bookstores. If you can somehow get them into comic bookstores, even then that's not very profitable. Like there's no way to make money from comics online, really, that is not either a subscription that you would find on like Patreon, or even Webtoon, or doing Kickstarters, or doing conventions. It's the only way to make money in comics really is at convention. So they teach you very early, the stack that you learn for comics is you run a Kickstarter, you do the convention circuit, and then when Patreon came, it's like maybe you do a Patreon, or there's used to be a thing called Drip, which Kickstarter had or one of the other ones that you have a subscription. Like those were the ways you made money. Listening to the other side of it, where the prose people are so retailer-focused, is wild to me. I still don't have any of my fiction books on retailers. Like zero of them are on retailers right now, and I've written over 40. I think one of the big mindset shifts you have to make when you're doing direct sales is that– Catalog sales are very different to direct-to-customer sales.  When I say catalog sales, Amazon is a catalog, Sears is a catalog. So if you remember actually getting—like I'm old enough to actually remember getting the Sears catalog, the JCPenney catalog, and the Macy's catalogs. And when you're flipping through, the goal of the catalog is to be just like the other things, like to be the blue shirt that they want. They've already curated that Macy's can curate for them, and so whatever Macy's wants, like says that they should buy, that's what they're looking at.  That's how Amazon sales works. That's one of the reasons why people say every paranormal romance should look the same, everything with the same subgenre should look the same. It's because when people are looking through the catalogue of Amazon books, they are picking the one that looks most like the one that they have already read. When you're talking about direct sales, it's the opposite. It's really people who are trying to find a unique and different experience. I think the change is—and I've been talking about direct sales in the prose side since 2016, at least, when I ran my first three prose campaigns. And everyone would say, I'm not going to do that, I'm just going to go into KU because it works. The thing that happened in the past five years is it doesn't work anymore. So people are trying to find more ways to make the catalog algorithm work, even as it works less and less, for less and less percentage total of people. Joanna: I love that you said that the catalog idea is to be just like the other things, just a different shade of blue or whatever. I feel such a relief at this Kickstarter model, but it takes a while for the penny to drop. It's almost like when you first look at it, like I didn't want to do it for ages, I just guess I didn't know. It does feel a bit complicated. People have said to me, “Ah, it's too high risk,” and, “I could just put my book up on Amazon.” But what you've said is exactly right, that

How can using Pinterest more like a search engine help you sell more books? What are some of the ways to use Pinterest most effectively for book marketing? Trona Freeman gives her tips. In the intro, KDP announce an Invite-Only KDP Beta for Audiobooks; How to Double Down on Being Human: 5 Ways to Stand Out in an Age of AI; Creative Planning with Orna Ross; Pathfinders edited by JL Collins; Kickstarter fulfillment for Writing the Shadow; In-Person Conference Tips for Introverts and Highly Sensitive People. Today's show is sponsored by Ingram Spark, which I use to print and distribute my print-on-demand books wide to 40,000 retailers including independent bookstores, schools and universities, libraries, and more. It's your content—do more with it through IngramSpark.com. Trona Freeman specializes in Pinterest services and marketing for small business. She has a Master's in History of Art and lives in Scotland. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below. Show Notes What is Pinterest and how can authors use it for book marketing Utilizing keywords and SEO for your books Integration between Pinterest and Shopify Recommended tools for scheduling on Pinterest How engaging should you be? Do you have to reply to comments? How AI will be incorporated into the future of Pinterest You can find Trona at services.ayelined.com Transcript of Interview with Trona Freeman Joanna: Trona Freeman specializes in Pinterest services and marketing for small business. She has a Master's in History of Art and lives in Scotland. So welcome to the show, Trona. Trona: Hello, thank you so much for having me. Joanna: Oh, I'm excited to talk about this. Before we get into it— Tell us a bit more about you and why you focus particularly on Pinterest. Trona: So I did my master's in history of art about 10 years ago now. Then I was going to do a PhD, but I fell pregnant with my son who's now nine. So I thought, I'm going to take something up that isn't too overwhelming, but will still keep my mind taken over, so I started blogging.  From that, I really fell in love with Pinterest and SEO, and I started learning more about it and helping other people use it. I started a newsletter, which then turned into my business, which I've had now for five years. I think it's just an incredible way to connect with people online. So these people are actually looking for you. You're not disrupting them on their social media or anywhere else, they're actively looking for you. So that's why I love it. Joanna: So it's really interesting, you know, Pinterest has been around for a long time, but social media has changed so much in the last decade. Like you mentioned your son is nine, I think social media has changed as much as your son has since he was born. What is Pinterest like now? And how can authors think about it as part of their marketing ecosystem? Trona: I think the best way to think about Pinterest is that it's actually more like a search engine than social media. Pinterest, themselves, describe it as a visual search and discovery engine. So people go there to search for visual imagery, but it's also connected to keywords, which are really important to help you get found on there. So it's like, if Google and Instagram had a baby, you kind of get Pinterest. So I think a lot of people still see it as social media, and there are still elements to it. So you can comment on pins, you can like pins, and so on, but in the end, it's actually a really powerful search engine. Joanna: So I guess the other thing there is you said people are looking for things. So I think about it as how it comes up in terms of, oh, if you're doing interior design, you can find really nice bathrooms on Pinterest. It's like we don't hear about it much in terms of book marketing anymore. So can you maybe go into some more detail in the different ways that authors could think about and use Pinterest? Trona: So I think even as a means to storyboard your work, like on a personal level you can use it. I recently read that Stranger Things writers used it to storyboard the whole series from the looks, the inspiration. That's how a lot of other people use it as well. But for you to attract people to you, you have to think about how people are searching for whatever you write. So if you're a nonfiction writer, people will search things like, “how to start writing,” “writing tips,” “writing prompts,” and so on. There's actually lots and lots on there.  Journaling is really huge on Pinterest as well, which I know a lot of authors use as a means to keep up their ideas. So that's a really good way to share how your story develops, but also to attract people to your website, which then can get email signups, sales, and just more eyes on your work in general. Joanna: Okay, so that's a nonfiction example. So let's talk a bit about fiction. So the storyboarding, I guess we can create pictures within our world. What are some other ways that fiction authors could use it? Trona: So I did a little search earlier, and there's lots of fantasy authors coming up, there's a lot of thriller, mystery, romance, a whole lot of genres coming up. What a lot of it was to do with was “best books to read for autumns,” or “books to read in a dark night.” So horror authors could think about how they could share their work, maybe in lists, or share pins for like “best horrors for a scary Friday night,” or something like that because — People search Pinterest with the intent to do something. So it can be something as little as just cozying up at a fire. Or it can be more gifting ideas, maybe people are looking for gifts to give to the friend who loves writing and reading. So there's actually lots and lots of opportunities on there. I think one of the best things to do is just start with your genre, and pop it in the little search bar and see what Pinterest comes back with. Then see if you can think about how you can use those ideas that are coming up in your content or pins that you create. Joanna: Oh, there's so much I want to go into. So just for people listening, I've been using it for probably a decade now. My Pinterest handle is JFPenn, so I've mainly used it for fiction. Let's go into the idea, “best books to read for autumn,” for example. We're recording this in October. You mentioned the “how to write” as a kind of niche or the “how to journal.” A similar thing could be “best books to read for writing a novel,” or something like that. So the same kind of idea could be used. Can you just go into that? So when you say a pin— Can you explain what a pin is? What are some best practices around the image, and the text, and the keywords? Trona: So a pin is sort of little bookmark that you can share onto Pinterest, and then people will then save that onto those boards. The pins can appear in your home feeds, so if you're just having a scroll through it, Pinterest can share out your pins to people that they think will engage with it. Or you can be found through the search feeds, so that's somebody popping in the search terms that we were just talking about there, and then you have the opportunity to come up. So yeah, there's lots of opportunities to get found. You can also be featured by Pinterest. They have seasonal trends that can come up, so they do feature writers and authors and ideas around that as well. Joanna: Just to be even more basic because I think you're taking for granted people know what a pin is. So it's essentially an image. Trona: Yes, it's an image. So that can either be a still image, which would be a standard pin, or you can have a video pin, and an idea pin. They're kind of similar, but they're still standard idea pens, even though they're video pins. It's very complicated at the moment. The main thing is that you have a standard pin, which is your regular two by three image that you pop up, your video pin, or your idea pen. Your idea pin is very similar to a TikTok, a real, the stories that you share on Instagram. They're the same size, so it's a good way to repurpose content. Joanna: Okay, so the two-by-three, so it is like a book cover size. For people in their minds, it's a book cover. But if you're doing, “best books to read for autumn,” some of these pins are much longer than two by three, I've noticed. So if we're doing like, let's say we've got, “10 books to read for autumn.” Do we make a super, super long kind of article-style image? Trona: So what Pinterest will do if they're too long, they'll truncate them. People used to do something called giraffe pins, and they were these ones that you saw and they were really, really long. They're good because they take up a lot of room on your screen, so that you click on them. So they will get truncated if they're too long. So the two by three is their recommended size, but you can play about with the pixels. So they recommend that you do minimum 1000 by 1500 pixels. So if you're sharing that from your website, that can pull a lot of memory from your website, so you can upload directly to Pinterest. Joanna: So in Canva, so I use canva.com to do a lot of my images, and I know they have a lot of Pinterest designs that you can take and use as your own. But I know people listening are like, okay, that's the kind of list posts that people can use, but what if I've got pictures? So for example, my BooksAndTravel.page website, which is my travel site, has articles in it about my travels. A lot of those images are not the two by three size, and I do pin the images from my site. So how is that? Because I'm kind of doing that in the hope that people will click on

How can you reinvigorate your writing process, breathe life into your backlist, and prepare your author business for the rollercoaster that is publishing? Tracy Cooper-Posey gives her tips. In the intro, Authors Guild results [The Hotsheet]; more Promo Stacks with Written Word Media; Amazon's robot [BBC]; Amazon's generative image AI for products [Venture Beat]; Shutterstock's new AI image option; Writing the Shadow Kickstarter finishes (thank you!), and on pre-order. Plus, join my Patreon Community / TheCreativePenn and get AI tutorials plus other benefits. This podcast is sponsored by Kobo Writing Life, which helps authors self-publish and reach readers in global markets through the Kobo eco-system. You can also subscribe to the Kobo Writing Life podcast for interviews with successful indie authors.  Tracy Cooper-Posey is the multi-award-winning author of over 200 romance novels. Today, we're talking about her first non-fiction book for authors, The Productive Indie Fiction Writer: Strategies for Writing More, Earning More, and Living Well. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Changing as a writer and reinvigorating writing habits with a new genre Deciding what to focus on when there seems to be limitless options How a backlist underpins an indie author business Deciding when to update books or retire books Stash the cash, stash the books, stash the email list Tips for dealing with discouragement Utilizing BookFunnel promotions as a discovery tool You can find Tracy at StoriesRulePress.com Transcript of Interview with Tracy Cooper-Posey Joanna: Tracy Cooper-Posey is the multi-award-winning author of over 200 romance novels. Today, we're talking about her first non-fiction book for authors, The Productive Indie Fiction Writer: Strategies for Writing More, Earning More, and Living Well. So welcome to the show, Tracy. Tracy: Thanks, Joanna. It's absolutely fabulous to be here. Joanna: Oh, it is. And of course, you and I met years ago now in Oregon. I don't even know what year it was. Tracy: I have forgotten too. I think 2017, or something like that. Joanna: Something like that, so we've known each other a while. But first up— Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and publishing. Tracy: Well, honestly, the first thing I wrote was the unofficial sequel to Star Wars when I was in high school in the late 1970s. My English teacher read it, she found it, told me to write something original, so I did. I kept on scribbling after that, but I hid it from everyone because, well, I came from a working-class Australian family who thought a reliable job after high school should be the sum total of my ambitions. I was basically in my mid-30s and a single mum before I took writing seriously and started aiming for publication. I sold my first two books in one week in 1999. After that, because traditional publishing was the only option back then, I had 35 books traditionally published. It's such a soul-destroying industry, I ended up angry and frustrated most of the time. I switched to indie publishing in 2011. It was like thank god, there is an alternative. Now I have more than 200 titles under three different pen names, spanning romance, science fiction, fantasy, historical suspense, and a lot of stuff in between. And now, of course, non-fiction, The Productive Indie Fiction Writer book, and most recently, I've done a memoir. Joanna: Oh, wait, I didn't know about the memoir. I just have to ask about that, then we'll come back to the other stuff, because you've had some health issues the last year or so. Tracy: Yes. Joanna: And obviously, sometimes this is when we do write this kind of work. What is that memoir about? Tracy: Well, obviously, yes, it's a cancer memoir because I've been dealing with cancer. It's called Cancer Curated, and it literally came about because I have readers that were looking for my next book when I was dealing with the cancer. We ended up updating people in public on Facebook and stuff like that, letting readers know about what my health status was all the way through the cancer treatments and stuff like that. There was a lot of stuff that didn't hit the public announcements, the public updates. So basically, the book is everything that happened up to the first of the public updates, and everything that happened in between. So it's really a story of my journey through the cancer and exactly what I thought about it, exactly what I thought about the consequences of the cancer, which in some ways are very unexpected. Especially, like getting older, you sort of age overnight with cancer, which for some people, including me, because of my huge vanity, is a bit of an issue. So yes, it was the book that I sort of wanted to write because it filled in all the gaps. I was getting a lot of feedback from people with the public updates saying, “Oh, your posts helped.” And I thought, well, if the posts help, then maybe the book will help, too. So I sat down and wrote it very quickly. I think it needed to be written. It just emerged. Joanna: Well, that's really interesting. So like you said there, people found your public posts useful because a lot of people either themselves have cancer, their family has cancer, or other health issues that impact them. I mean, this is just the reality of life. Just personally, as a writer, because 99.9% of your writing is fiction, and now you've done a memoir and a non-fiction, do you feel like this kind of writing is helping you in a different way? Are you finding that you are becoming a different writer because you're writing different things? Tracy: Well, yes, absolutely, because writing non-fiction is not just simply switching genres, it's a whole new thing. There's quite a learning curve to it and things that like you don't have to worry about with fiction, making sure your sources are correct and things like that. So there's a bit of a curve there. Also, writing the memoir, of course, basically I was pulling back the curtain and saying, “Tada! Here I am. This is me, unclothed and vulnerable.” So it's a completely different pace for writing, I think. And also, writing the two non-fiction books helped me get back to writing fiction again, which I was having trouble with. It's helped round me out as a writer, I think. Joanna: How did it help you get back to fiction? Was it just that you kind of relearned to get back to the page as such? Tracy: Yes, it helped me relearn that daily habit of writing. And because I wasn't like pulling on the, I have to write this story, I have to develop all the scenes and all that sort of stuff, it was using different muscles for writing. It was a lot easier to do that daily writing and get into it. And because the memoir just about wrote itself, it did, I think I wrote it in about 10 days, it really helped me get back into that daily habit and get me enthusiastic about writing once more, which I had lost for a while. Joanna: So when is that out? Or is it out right now? Tracy: It comes out at the end of the month, late October on our site on StoriesRulePress.com. Then it will be released at all the other bookstores in January. Joanna: Fantastic. Well, I'm fascinated by memoir. Now, obviously, I've done this Pilgrimage book this year, and also my Writing the Shadow has a lot of memoir aspects. I think what's interesting, so this cancer book you've done right now is a very immediate memoir of this kind of particular period of your life. I'm going to predict that over the next few years, you're going to end up writing another memoir, maybe more than one, about different things. Because, of course, your experience is going to continue, and your perspective is going to change, and your writing business is going to change. So I think this is so interesting that you've got so many hundreds of novels, and suddenly you're moving into new things. I want to encourage people there because some people feel quite siloed, I think, and maybe, like you said, 1999, you've got 20-plus years in fiction, and now you've broken out, which is fascinating to me. Tracy: Well, I always was writing non-fiction, but it was all short stuff. So blog posts, and essays, and articles, and things like that, but this is the first time I've actually done a memoir. And yes, it's a very different change of pace. I think you're right, I think there may be more of it in my future because it really does tap into a different side of your brain. Joanna: For sure. All right, let's come to The Productive Indie Fiction Writer because this is a really good non-fiction book. Again, you've got so much experience and this book is jam-packed full of tips, in that we can't even touch the surface with this interview. There's a few quotes I thought were brilliant. So you open the book with: “It's time to stop the madness.” Which is great. What madness is that, and why have things changed? Tracy: Oh, goodness me. When I first got into indie publishing, you could write, publish the book, and go back to writing while your book sold very well. It was very new industry, you just had to put the book out there and it sold. Now, of course, it's a lot harder to achieve that sort of visibility. There's a lot more books out there demanding readers' attention, you have to work for your sales. I don't think that's a bad thing, necessarily, but now we all have to figure out how to make the sales happen. How that happens is different for every author. So there's a lot of moving parts we have to cover. There's a lot of things we must do, there's a lot of things we should do, and some of the things w

How do you keep up with everything you need to do as your author business grows? How do you decide what to focus on as the industry changes — and you change, too? Patricia McLinn discusses her challenges with a big backlist of books and a mature indie author business. In the intro, Self-publishing's ongoing evolution [Publishers Weekly]; Audiobooks on Spotify and how my listening behavior is changing [FindawayVoices]; Author ecosystems, and an overview on the Kickstart your book sales podcast. Plus, How to double down on being human: 5 ways to stand out in an age of AI; Writing the Shadow: Turn Your Inner Darkness Into Words; Let your dark horse run; Halloween Horror Bundle including Catacomb; The Wrong Planet autism book by Holger Nils Pohl; Join the community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn Today's show is sponsored by ProWritingAid, writing and editing software that goes way beyond just grammar and typo checking. With its detailed reports on how to improve your writing and integration with Scrivener, ProWritingAid will help you improve your book before you send it to an editor, agent or publisher. Check it out for free or get 25% off the premium edition at www.ProWritingAid.com/joanna Patricia McLinn is the award-winning and multi-USA Today bestselling author of over 60 books across mystery, contemporary and historical romance, women's fiction, and nonfiction. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Dealing with difficulties of changing business technology How to re-sane in a long-term author career Streamlining, outsourcing, and letting go The change in social media platforms over the past decade AI and its effect on discoverability What retirement may look like for an author You can find Patricia at PatriciaMcLinn.com Transcript of Interview with Patricia McLinn Joanna: Patricia McLinn is the award-winning and multi-USA Today bestselling author of over 60 books across mystery, contemporary and historical romance, women's fiction, and nonfiction. Today we're talking about the challenges of a long-term career and how to re-sane yourself. So welcome back to the show, Pat. Patricia: It's wonderful to be here with you, Jo. Thank you. Joanna: Oh, I'm excited to talk about this. You were last on the show in May 2021, talking about discovery writing and sustaining a long-term writing career. So we're going to jump straight into the topic today, and I'll link to that interview in the show notes. Basically, you emailed me, and I am quoting from your email, you said you've had, “Cascading failures and issues in business technology and infrastructure.” “It has not been fun. It has cost a lot.” And we want to talk about the difficulties today. So first up, tell us about those difficulties. Patricia: Well, some of them are things that everybody has experienced. Like a little over a year ago, I had just finished redoing the Amazon categories for all of my books, and you know, there are 65 different titles, but there's paperback and there's large print. There are a lot of, as people say, products, more than the titles of the book, so about 200. I had just finished that when the word came out that Amazon had changed the categories. Now, as we know now from a year looking back, that was the first of about three changes. So I had all that work that was wasted, which was very frustrating. I have not done anything else with those categories since then because I've been occupied with other things. I was working on AI audio, so I was doing some AI audio on Google Play with romances that were not otherwise ever going to be in audio. So that was occupying a lot of my time last fall. Then I also had ActiveCampaign as my newsletter server, and I had been with them for six years. I was frustrated and felt that I was never getting from it what it could do. I could see all this functionality, but boy, it just did not mesh with me. So I decided, okay, I am not going to be defeated, I will not give up. So I went out and found somebody who was an expert and spoke author, and he spent the month of January straightening out my ActiveCampaign, getting it where it should be, doing the things that I had sort of piecemeal done—piecemeal is going to be a theme, I think, in this conversation—that I had done. It cost a couple thousand dollars, and a lot of time and effort, mine as well as his, but we had that set. Then in mid-March, ActiveCampaign, which is already expensive, sent me an email and said, “We're gonna raise your rate by more than 33%.” And I said, oh, no, you're not. It was what had finally pushed me over the edge. And, yes, there were some costs in what I had had him do and some time, but what I should have done, and this is also going to be a theme, is I should have listened to my gut. Six years of trying to get ActiveCampaign to work for me the way I felt it should, and we just were not a good fit. You know, give it up McLinn, just let it go! But I didn't until the 33-plus percent increase. Now, that of course happened, and they told me in March that you had to have it changed by the end of April or you got charged for the entire year. And I was of course on deadline, I had a book coming out at the end of April. I don't write ahead like some people do. Deadline is my muse. So I had paid the same gentleman to transfer me to Mailer Lite, which has been much more congenial. I don't know whether it's the way my brain works or what it was, but I just never did. So one of the things I would say to people is do not do what I did. Do not pay for six years for a tool that is not working the way it's supposed to, even when you know it's got lots of functionality. Just listen to yourself. Look at the practicality of what works for you, not what should or could work. Do not tell yourself, as I did, I can make anything work if I try hard enough. Is it the best use of your time and your emotional energy, and eventually your money, as this turned out to be? So that was one big thing. Joanna: Wait, we haven't finished yet? There's still more?! Patricia: I also got an email in February, I think, that said, “Oh, geez, your lifetime deal with the SmartURL links isn't going to work anymore. We will continue to serve your URLs if you pay us,” because it was bought out by another company. And that gets my back up. I had a lifetime deal, the buying up company should honor that. Then they said, well, we will serve 40% of your URLs. Apparently not a lot of people were taking them up on their initial offer. I wrote back and said, “Well, how do we know which 40%?” And they wrote back and said, “Oh, we don't know.” Like, what? Joanna: Just so people know, these are the links, say, in the back of your books that go to various stores. Patricia: Yes. So at that point, I had three assistants. My primary assistant was on a cruise. A secondary assistant who was the one who actually did links for me, that was one of her two primary jobs, said that she didn't have the time. And so I ended up—remember, still dealing with ActiveCampaign moving to Mailer Lite, still on deadline—I ended up changing/creating close to 3500 links because this was every link in the back of every book, every format, every possibility, and all the links on my website. I then had somebody who put them up. My primary assistant, unwisely, came back from the cruise. And she and my formatter got them in the back of the books and had to reupload every book, every book, everywhere. My lesson on that was that ‘lifetime deals' can very well not be. In fact, I had two others in this past year where the company was bought out, and these are all through AppSumo, the company was bought out and the buying out company did not honor the lifetime deal. Joanna: Okay, can I just comment on that, and I have a few comments coming back before we continue. First of all, on that whole lifetime deal companies, all of that, this is the same with publishers. A lot of people sign publishing deals thinking that that agent or that publisher will be with them forever, and for many authors, you know, a publisher will get bought or the publisher will sell, and it will change hands and the terms will be different. So it is completely normal for companies to sell, for contracts to change, and thus, although that happened, that doesn't surprise me. I have a tip for people here, and what I've always done because of this, I've seen this so many times, is to use a website link yourself. So I just use, say, JFPenn.com/Desecration. I use my own website as the redirect link, rather than using a separate smart link. [On WordPress you can use Tools -> Redirection, and you can also use Pretty Links plugin, and other link plugins.] So it's a different way of doing it, but it means it's in your control. Just coming back on some of these other things, I wanted to point out to people that you've been doing this a really long time. You've been publishing and self-publishing a long time. What's so interesting, I was also with ActiveCampaign for maybe a year, and I also felt the same way. It's interesting because you're a discovery writer, I'm a discovery writer, and I just felt the same as you. I felt like it was not meshing with me because it's very almost mathematical. It's a very logical system. There are some authors who do really well with ActiveCampaign, but I was not one of them. I moved to ConvertKit, with a really simple email structure that I feel works as someone who is, I guess, just not as planned. And you're the same, you know, we discovery write, we do things intuitively. I mean, you've chosen Mailer Lite, I've chosen ConvertKit, but the tip

What is soul of place or genius loci and how can you write it in a more immersive way in your books? How can you discover it closer to home, as well as write real settings more authentically, and invent it for your fiction? Linda Lappin gives some tips in this interview. In the intro, 140 Book Marketing Ideas from BookBub; JA Konrath on AI and The Authors Guild. Plus, Writing the Shadow: Turn Your Inner Darkness Into Words, and I'm on lots of podcasts: The Rebel Author Podcast, Stark Reflections on Writing and Publishing; How Do You Write?; The Secret Library; Self-Publishing Show; Hybrid Author Podcast; Self-Publishing Advice Podcast; Novel Marketing Podcast. For a great ebook deal, check out the Halloween Storybundle Today's show is sponsored by Draft2Digital, where you can get free ebook formatting, free distribution to multiple stores, and a host of other benefits. Get your free Author Marketing Guide at draft2digital.com/penn Linda Lappin is the award-winning author of historical fiction and mystery, as well as The Soul of Place: A Creative Writing Workbook: Ideas and Exercises for Conjuring the Genius Loci. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes What is soul of place or genius loci? How to know when you feel the soul of place Using soul of place across genres Noticing your local environment in a different light The importance of sensory detail Experiencing sacred places Writing characters' homes to create more personal stories Writing as an outsider You can find Linda at LindaLappin.net. Transcript of Interview with Linda Lappin Joanna: Linda Lappin is the award-winning author of historical fiction and mystery, as well as The Soul of Place: A Creative Writing Workbook: Ideas and Exercises for Conjuring the Genius Loci, which we're talking about today. So welcome to the show, Linda. Linda: Thank you. Joanna: Oh, I'm excited to talk to you about this topic. But first up— Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and publishing. Linda: I'm an American author based in Italy, and I've always written ever since I was a small child. I did a creative writing minor with an English major at university. Then I went on to the University of Iowa Writers' Workshop to do a graduate degree MFA in fiction, poetry, and also, literary translation. Thanks to the literary translation, I was able to get a Fulbright grant to Italy to participate in a translation workshop, and I managed to stay on here. It was sort of an interesting thing because when I was in university, I was writing primarily poetry, but after I moved abroad to Italy, I kind of gave up writing for five years because I was really focusing on learning the language and translating. When I started writing again, it was prose and short stories, which then got longer and longer and became novels. I've also been teaching. I taught 39 years in Italian universities as a teacher of English Language and Literature. Joanna: So you said there, 39 years. So how long have you been in Italy? Linda: 40 years. Joanna: Oh, wow. That's crazy. Do you consider yourself Italian now? Because you must have lived in Italy longer than the US. Linda: No. I have lived here longer than I lived in the US because I was only about 25 when I left, but your roots sort of stay with you, which is also part of the soul of place. They do stay with you. So I'm perfectly bilingual, my husband is Italian, we speak in a combination of English and Italian, but I still feel very American. Joanna: That is interesting. I'm just fascinated with place, and I know people listening are too. Where in the U.S. do you come from? And where are you living in Italy? Linda: Well, I originally come from Kingsport, Tennessee. My parents were from the Chicago area. I was living in Iowa City before I moved to Italy. Now, I'm in Rome. Actually, I have a second home in a small village near Rome, and so we go back and forth. Especially during the pandemic, we've been in our second home a lot. So back and forth, Rome and a small village called Vitorchiano. Joanna: Wow. Okay, so this actually gives me much more of an insight into why you wrote this book in the first place. Tennessee, Rome, Chicago, Iowa — I've been to Chicago—I've been to Rome many times, but these places all have a very specific sense of place, which is kind of what we're talking about. Why don't we get into the book, and you pronounce this differently, but— What do you mean by genius loci or soul of place? Linda: Well, most people think of soul of place as being a synonym for sense of place, meaning the atmosphere of a place or a locale, but the term genius loci, or as I pronounce it with the Italian, genius loci, refers to something much more specific and harkens back to ancient Rome. The ancient Romans, as well as Greeks, and also various other populations around the world in different eras, have always believed that everything that is created, person, place, thing, even a concept, has an indwelling spark of energy called the genius which gives its character and animates it. So when you talk about soul of place in that context, we're talking about a special characterizing energy that dwells in a place. Joanna: Can you give us some specifics around where you live now? Rome, which to me has this—like, I mean, you talk about the ancient Romans, Rome has a mythic quality, but the reality of living there is quite different. So how would you describe it around where you live? Linda: Well, I live in a kind of proletarian area. So it's a modern neighborhood outside the city centre, but still within what's called the Ring Road of Rome. So it's very chaotic, full of people and traffic and cars, but they all manifest that real Roman way of life. The Roman slang, the daily habits of gathering in the streets and having your coffee, and meeting for an aperitivo. I mean, all that I see in my very, very working class neighborhood every day. Joanna: Does everywhere have this soul of place? I guess— How do people know when they feel something in a place? Linda: Well, there was the French anthropologist who recently passed away, Marc Augé, who wrote that book called Non-Places, do you know that? Joanna: Oh, I don't, but sounds interesting. Linda: Well, he sort of analyzes all these places in our modern society which have no soul, which are like airports, and shopping malls, and highways, and so on, which are just anonymous spaces. The soul of place is something that's quite the opposite of that. So it's where you feel something that's been deposited in the territory itself, which can be through other people who've lived there for generations, or important events that have taken place there, or particular architectural style that developed there because of the climatic conditions or because of the materials that were available. The soul of place is really a composite of factors that arise from the actual physical nature of the place itself. Its climatic conditions, its orientation towards north or south, or even cosmic influences, if you like. This is something that DH Lawrence believed. So in order to feel the soul of place, you really just have to rely on your instinct. We know that in earlier times, of course, we were nomadic creatures, and we wandered the earth looking for sources of food and sources of water, and we had an instinct for where to go and where we would thrive and where we wouldn't. So I think all of us still have that latent in ourselves. So one aspect of getting to know the soul of place is just to rely on your instinct to get to the place itself. Then, of course, there are other factors as well, like when you're in a place that's extraordinarily beautiful, and it awakens your sense of the sublime, maybe you feel lifted out of yourself, lifted out of your daily cares. Or maybe you just find a place that seems familiar to you, even though you've never been there before, and you just feel comfortable there, and you could imagine staying there for the rest of your life. These are all ways that you can feel the soul of place. Joanna: I find this very interesting. I'm very sensitive to places, and so I write about it a lot in my books, but I know some people don't find it so important. Why do you think it's important for writers to capture this soul of place in their books? How can these places be used differently by genre? So Rome, for example, often is in a romance, but it might also be in a historical thriller or a modern crime novel, for example. Linda: Sure, yeah. I can think of many examples. Well, all as Lawrence Durrell says, “All great works of fiction are as much concerned with place as they are with character and incident.” I think that's really true. Then he goes on to make a point, if you take Moby Dick and you put it in another setting, it's a completely different book.  On another level, the idea that our environment, in literature anyway, the outer environment is somehow a manifestation or reflection of the inner one of the characters is a trope that's existed in literature since the times of myth. So also we find it in Dante, we find it in Shakespeare, we find it in the Bronte sisters, we find it in romantic poetry. Also a lot of contemporary modern writers have used this idea as well, that the outside environment is somehow a reflection of what's inside. A great example, of course, is the hotel in The Shining. It's a real place in the real world, but it's also like a projection of the protagonist, Jackson, crumbling into his disintegrating mind. The things are kind of mirrored back and forth from real p

How can you let your creative dark horse run? What is the Shadow — and why explore your Shadow side? This episode features excerpted chapters from the audiobook of Writing the Shadow: Turn Your Inner Darkness Into Words, written and narrated by Joanna Penn, available on Kickstarter until 25 October 2023: www.TheCreativePenn.com/shadowbook (link will redirect if you're reading/listening in the future.) You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below. Let your dark horse run Introduction: What is the Shadow? Why explore your Shadow side? Let your dark horse run Although much has changed over the last two thousand years, human nature remains the same. Around 370 BC, the Greek philosopher Plato composed The Phaedrus, which includes an allegory of a chariot that has helped me frame the Shadow. Perhaps it will help you, too. Imagine a Roman chariot drawn by two horses — a white horse and a dark horse. I am the Charioteer, and I am in the race of my life. The white horse represents my rational self, the one society sees. My good behaviour, my industry, my hard work, my productivity, my scrubbed-clean, well-mannered good girl self.  She helps others. She’s a peacemaker. She doesn’t like conflict. She says the right things, reads the right books. She needs to be liked. My white horse trots delicately along paved roads, aware of the fences and boundaries, never needing to cross them, remaining within the lines drawn by others. My dark horse is a wild animal, wreathed in smoke and ash and flame.  She gallops across wide open spaces, leaps obstacles, smashes through fences, and avoids the paved and cornered world.  She runs free and will destroy herself, rather than be caged. If both horses run together in the same direction, I can fly along, whooping in delight at the speed and power. But if they become unbalanced, the chariot begins to wobble.  When my dark horse stumbles, my white horse drives us hard along the highway, never stopping for rest.  But if she dominates for too long, my dark horse rears up and runs out of control, driving us towards the cliff edge. My white horse has often been stronger.  I’ve always worked hard, got good grades, behaved well, earned enough money to support myself, paid my taxes early.  But the more I let my white horse dominate, the more my dark one rears up unexpectedly and takes over until she exhausts herself with all the things that nice girls shouldn’t do.  When I became a writer, these two horses drove me once more.  My white horse writes non-fiction, helps others, wants to be useful, and responsibly manages a professional business. I’m grateful to have her! My dark horse writes stories that tap into untamed darkness.  I’ve tried to muzzle her, strap her down, regulate her chaos.  But she rears her head, shakes her mane, stamps her hooves, paws the dirt.  Let me run. Questions: What are the key aspects of your white horse?  What are the key aspects of your dark horse? What happens when one or the other becomes dominant? How could you let your dark horse run creatively? How does it make you feel to consider that prospect? Introduction: What is the Shadow? “How can I be substantial if I do not cast a shadow? I must have a dark side also if I am to be whole.” —C.G. Jung, Modern Man in Search of a Soul We all have a Shadow side and it is the work of a lifetime to recognise what lies within and spin that base material into gold.  Think of it as a seedling in a little pot that you’re given when you’re young. It’s a bit misshapen and weird, not something you would display in your living room, so you place it in a dark corner of the basement.  You don’t look at it for years. You almost forget about it.  Then one day you notice tendrils of something wild poking up through the floorboards. They’re ugly and don’t fit with your Scandi-minimalist interior design. You chop the tendrils away and pour weedkiller on what’s left, trying to hide the fact that they were ever there.  But the creeping stems keep coming.  At some point, you know you have to go down there and face the wild thing your seedling has become.  When you eventually pluck up enough courage to go down into the basement, you discover that the plant has wound its roots deep into the foundations of your home. Its vines weave in and out of the cracks in the walls, and it has beautiful flowers and strange fruit.  It holds your world together.  Perhaps you don’t need to destroy the wild tendrils. Perhaps you can let them wind up into the light and allow their rich beauty to weave through your home. It will change the look you have so carefully cultivated, but maybe that’s just what the place needs. The Shadow in psychology Carl Gustav Jung was a Swiss psychologist and the founder of analytical psychology. He described the Shadow as an unconscious aspect of the human personality, those parts of us that don’t match up to what is expected of us by family and society, or to our own ideals. The Shadow is not necessarily evil or illegal or immoral, although of course it can be. It’s also not necessarily caused by trauma, abuse, or any other severely damaging event, although again, it can be. It depends on the individual.  What is in your Shadow is based on your life and your experiences, as well as your culture and society, so it will be different for everyone.  Psychologist Connie Zweig, in The Inner Work of Age, explains, “The Shadow is that part of us that lies beneath or behind the light of awareness. It contains our rejected, unacceptable traits and feelings. It contains our hidden gifts and talents that have remained unexpressed or unlived. As Jung put it, the essence of the Shadow is pure gold.” To further illustrate the concept, Robert Bly, in A Little Book on the Human Shadow,uses the following metaphor: “When we are young, we carry behind us an invisible bag, into which we stuff any feelings, thoughts, or behaviours that bring disapproval or loss of love—anger, tears, neediness, laziness. By the time we go to school, our bags are already a mile long.  In high school, our peer groups pressure us to stuff the bags with even more—individuality, sexuality, spontaneity, different opinions. We spend our life until we’re twenty deciding which parts of ourselves to put into the bag and we spend the rest of our lives trying to get them out again.” As authors, we can use what’s in the ‘bag’ to enrich our writing — but only if we can access it. My intention with this book is to help you venture into your Shadow and bring some of what’s hidden into the light and into your words. I’ll reveal aspects of my Shadow in these pages but ultimately, this book is about you. Your Shadow is unique. There may be elements we share, but much will be different. Each chapter has questions for you to consider that may help you explore at least the edges of your Shadow, but it’s not easy. As Jung said, “One does not become enlightened by imagining figures of light, but by making the darkness conscious. The latter procedure, however, is disagreeable and therefore not popular.” But take heart, Creative. You don’t need courage when things are easy. You need it when you know what you face will be difficult, but you do it anyway. We are authors. We know how to do hard things. We turn ideas into books. We manifest thoughts into ink on paper.  We change lives with our writing. First, our own, then other people’s. It’s worth the effort to delve into Shadow, so I hope you will join me on the journey. Who am I and why did I write this book? I’m Jo Frances Penn. I’m an award-nominated, New York Times and USA Today bestselling author of thrillers, dark fantasy, crime, and travel memoir as J.F. Penn. I also write non-fiction self-help for authors as Joanna Penn. At the time of writing, I’m in my late forties and I live with my husband Jonathan and my two British shorthair cats, Cashew and Noisette, in Bath, England. I’ve been a full-time author entrepreneur since 2011 and before that, I used to implement accounts payable systems into companies across Europe, Australia, and New Zealand. I first learned of Carl Jung’s principle of the Shadow when I studied Psychology at A level, aged sixteen to eighteen, here in the UK. I later studied Psychology of Religion as part of my Masters in Theology at the University of Oxford (1994–1997) where I read Jung and many other perspectives.  In 2005, I did a Graduate Diploma in Psychology at the University of Auckland, New Zealand, and considered becoming a clinical psychologist. That’s also the year I started writing my first book, which led to me becoming an author instead.  Over the years, I’ve continued to study elements of psychology and have woven its principles into my stories as well as my self-help books.  But of course, self-development is the journey of a lifetime and we are all a work in progress. I cannot claim to have solved all my issues, let alone brought everything that remains in my Shadow into the light. I’ve been writing this book on and off for many years, first in my journals and then in various manuscript forms, but I backed away from finishing it until now. Writing my memoir, Pilgrimage, unblocked a great deal and helped me overcome my fear of sharing more openly. I’ve also crossed a threshold into middle age and it’s been a journey of such change that I finally feel ready to share this book.  While my personal experience will be different to yours, I hope you find this book useful as you face yo

How can you establish a creative routine that enables you to write the books you want to write without burning out? How can you balance a sustainable work ethic as an author as well as spending time away from the desk. LA Witt talks about her strategies. In the intro, Spotify introduces 15 hours of audiobooks for premium subscribers in limited countries [FindawayVoices]; Spotify auto-translates podcasts into other languages in the host's voice [Spotify]; Amazon invested in Anthropic, which includes generative text model, Claude [The Verge]; ChatGPT goes multi-modal [OpenAI]; DALL-E 3 launching which includes text with images [OpenAI] Writing the Shadow: Turn Your Inner Darkness Into Words is now live! I'm also discussing the book, selling direct and other things on the Everyday Spirituality Podcast; Two Indie Authors; Becoming an international bestselling author; Plus, check out the Halloween Storybundle and Becca Syme's Energy Pennies Kickstarter. This podcast is sponsored by Written Word Media, which makes book marketing a breeze by offering quick, easy and effective ways for authors to promote their books. You can also subscribe to the Written Word Media email newsletter for book marketing tips. L.A. Witt is the author of nearly 200 romance novels and novellas, and today we're talking about her book for authors, Writing Faster for the Win. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below. Show Notes Writing in multiple subgenres Tips for utilizing your space and time for writing effectively Discovering your sustainable word count Using brackets and placeholders to write faster Trusting your story intuition The toll burnout takes on your health and tips to avoid it Managing a massive backlist and multiple streams of income Switching from KU to wide and how to ramp up sales You can find L.A. at GallagherWitt.com or on Instagram, Twitter, or Facebook. Transcript of Interview with L.A. Witt Joanna: L.A. Witt is the author of nearly 200 romance novels and novellas, and today we're talking about her book for authors, Writing Faster for the Win. So welcome to the show, Lori. LA: Thanks for having me. Joanna: It's great to have you on the show. So first up— Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and publishing. LA: I mean, I'm kind of the cliche writer who's been writing since I could hold a pen up right. I always wanted to write stories when I was a kid and was learning for years and years. Then I kind of fell backwards into writing romance and into publishing because my husband was in the military, we got sent to Japan, and there are no jobs there. I couldn't work. I said, what am I going to do? And he said, well, when we got married, you said you always wanted to take some time off and try writing full time—like six months, twelve months to see if I could pull it off—and he said, now you have three years. Joanna: No pressure! LA: But that was the deal. He said, I have three years, don't worry about getting a job, don't worry about finding some kind of other hustle. He said, just focus on writing. We agreed that if I could get a part-time income going that I didn't have to get a full-time job when we went back to the US. I mean, I had just gotten out of nine years of customer service, so that was some serious motivation.  It happened that NaNoWriMo was like right around that time. I think we moved in October, so NaNoWriMo was the next month. I just said, okay, well, I'm going to do NaNoWriMo to get into the groove. And I thought, well, if I'm going to plot something in two weeks, a romance is probably—I don't want to say simpler, as in like, oh, they're just simple, ridiculous—but they are simpler than epic fantasy, which is what I was writing at the time. So I threw one together and wrote it, and it was like, this is actually a lot of fun, I'm going to do it again. That was 2008, and it just never stopped. Joanna: Wow. Okay, so that's interesting. You're right about epic fantasy. Obviously, they're much longer books, but also multiple characters.  Do you now write epic fantasy? Or have you stuck with romance? LA: I've stuck with romance and also romantic suspense, but I do still write fantasy. I have one that I'm working on on the side, it's just not where I want it to be yet. But I really enjoyed writing romance. Like when I got into it, I was like, this is actually a lot of fun. Then I, again, stumbled into writing gay romance, and that turned out to be even more fun. So I just said, well, I'm gonna keep doing this. 15 years and 200 books later… Joanna: Wow. How many subgenres in romance do you write in? So you mentioned there the gay romance, but what else do you have? LA: I've written suspense, science fiction, steampunk. I did a modern retelling of The Little Mermaid. I've kind of gone all over the place. I, again, sort of accidentally started writing hockey romance, and now I write a lot of hockey romance. I've written some historical. I've done everything from ancient Roman historical to a thriller set in the in prohibition era in New York. So I'm kind of all over the place. Joanna: Well, I think that's really cool. I mean, even thriller, like I'm in thriller, but there's tons and tons of subgenres underneath. I think that's really important, especially when you have as many books as you do. It's like, okay, so you don't just write the same book over and over again. There might be some similar tropes, but there's so many variations within the genres. LA: You got to change it up sometimes. I mean, I wrote a really dark suspense novel back in, I guess it was 2018. I had been doing a deep dive researching the Incel community, and that was an awful experience, but I was like, I'm gonna get the book out of it. So writing the book, it was just really dark and awful to write. When it was over, I was like, I need to write something fluffy, and I turned around and wrote an asexual, gay romantic comedy, just to do something different, just as like a palate cleanser. Joanna: Yeah, I love that. Actually, I mean, talking about writing faster, I feel like you do have a lot more leeway to write in so many different subgenres when you write faster. So you said in the book, you write around 80,000 words a month, which is just incredible, just ridiculous to me. This year, I've written over 100,000 words in the whole year. That pretty much is what I do. LA: It's also like when people talk about the word counts, I always want to caution that, yes, I write 5000 words a day, but I don't have kids. I don't have a full-time job outside of writing. My husband has his own thing. We both have our own hobbies and stuff. The only thing I really do outside the house is go to hockey games. So it's a matter of I have a lot more time than somebody who has three kids and a day job. Joanna: Me too. I'm also child-free. LA: You have your podcast and things going. Most of the days, it's just me and my cats for several hours. And over time, it used to take me like 10-12 hours to write 5000 words, but over the course of 15 years, I can start writing at noon and be done by four. Joanna: Okay, well, then that is the interesting thing — it used to take you 10-12 hours to do those words, and now it doesn't. Let's get into the tips because you do have some practicalities. It's not just magic that you do these words. What are your tips on the practicality side, the space and the time to write? LA: The biggest thing with the space and time is to decide, ‘this is my space, and this is my time,' and you have to guard it. If you tell your partner, I need from 7pm to 8pm as my writing time, that needs to be set in stone. Unless there's blood, leave me alone. You have to put that firm boundary down and just say, “This is my time, and I need to be able to write.” Or if you have writing time and somebody's like, “Hey, can we go out and get drinks?” Like yeah, once in a while, that's fine, but if you find that you're always going and doing something else during your writing time, you're not going to get any writing done. So you have to kind of treat it like a job, but just treat it as something that's important and isn't overly negotiable. That has to be with yourself too, not just other people. I have to tell myself, yeah, I'd really like to just sit in my studio and paint today, but I really need to write my words. Or I want to goof off on YouTube for a few hours watching hockey highlights, but I really need to write. Joanna: I think, like you said, it's about yourself more than anything. Look, there are always things we could be doing, and there are always things that might seem more “important” in inverted commas, but if these things happen every day, then the words never happened then. LA: It's very, very easy, you know. It becomes a form of procrastination, and it snowballs. I put it off today, I'll do it tomorrow, and suddenly tomorrow is six months from now, and you still haven't written anything. For me, 5000 words a day is a comfortable, sustainable pace. I always tell people, the way you find your pace is to take a few days and just write lazy. Just knock out some words, don't really push it. Do a few days and see how many words you do on those days. Then take a few days, and just pedal to the floor, write as much as you can. Push it as hard as you can. And when you're done, look and see what the difference is. For me, if I'm lazy, I can write 2000-3000. If I'm really pushing it, I can write 10,000. So for me, the comfortable sustainable pace is 5000. It's enough that I have to push it, but it's not going to burn me out. Joanna: We should emphasize that this is

As much as we try to plan for things, sometimes life happens and we have to adapt to a new situation. Jessie Kwak talks about adapting to life as a freelance writer and author after being injured, and her tips for managing work and energy. In the intro, I mention Accessibility for All, the interview I did with Jeff Adams about how we can make our content more accessible to people with injuries and disabilities. You can also check out KWL Podcast episode on Accessibility for Authors. Plus, Writing the Shadow: Turn Your Inner Darkness Into Words is launching soon on Kickstarter, register your interest in the launch here. This podcast is sponsored by Kobo Writing Life, which helps authors self-publish and reach readers in global markets through the Kobo eco-system. You can also subscribe to the Kobo Writing Life podcast for interviews with successful indie authors.  Jessie Kwak is the author of gangster sci-fi supernatural thrillers and nonfiction for creatives. She's also a ghostwriter and freelance marketing copywriter, and her books include From Big Idea to Book and From Chaos to Creativity. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Adapting to changing circumstances When medical situations affect your author business How changing appearances affects us at a deeper level The importance of accessibility tools for authors Prioritizing your use of energy when you only have a finite amount Ways to future-proof your business Healthcare costs for freelancers The Author Alchemy Summit hosted by Jessie Kwak You can find Jessie at JessieKwak.com and her upcoming summit at AuthorAlchemySummit.com. Transcript of Interview with Jessie Kwak Joanna: Jessie Kwak is the author of gangster sci-fi supernatural thrillers and nonfiction for creatives. She's also a ghostwriter and freelance marketing copywriter, and her books include From Big Idea to Book and From Chaos to Creativity. So welcome back to the show, Jessie. Jessie: Thank you for having me. Joanna: It's good to talk to you again. Now, you were last on the show in 2022, and this is just over a year later. So we're gonna jump straight into the topic today, which is adapting to change even when it's outside of your control. Tell us what happened to you back in July? Jessie: It's been kind of a wild few months. Back in July, I was selling books at a street fair with my friend Mark, and as we were leaving the fair, the car in front of us open fired into the street, and a bullet ricocheted through the windshield and into my eye. So fortunately, we were super close to the hospital, so Mark was able to get me there really quick. For a writer, he was an amazing getaway driver. Since then, I have had a couple of surgeries to reconstruct the eye and remove the bullet fragment, and it's been a lot of healing since then. I'm on a really good trajectory. My energy is mostly back and my right eye I can see perfectly well out of now, that was a little touch and go for a minute. But yeah, it brought everything to a screeching halt. We'll just say that. Joanna: I'm on your Facebook page, and your husband put a thing up, and it was so shocking. I know, obviously, you're used to telling the story now. But there are people listening who are like, what you got shot? And being in England, this is not very usual. I mean, we hear the news about America, and there always seems to be a lot of shooting, but this is a really big deal over here. It's like holy crap, that is just crazy. I mean, so it's a couple of months now, and there's healing and everything, but the immediate shock and injury and trauma of this. Did everything stop in your life? Jessie: Yeah, of course. I am always a go-go-go person, so it took me a minute to internalize that I wasn't going to be able to go, go, go. I do a monthly writers' social at my house, and that was coming up on that Tuesday, this was a Saturday, and I remember being like, “Oh, this is going to be a crazy story to tell everyone on Tuesday.” Then my husband's like, “You're not hosting a social in a few days, what are you thinking? We have to cancel that.” And I was like, oh, you're right, I'm going to have to cancel a lot of things. So it just took a while for that to sink in. Joanna: And then of course, you're a freelance writer and an author, and your sight is a necessary part of this. I think this really freaked me out big time because I do have some risk factors for macular degeneration. So I thought a lot about what would happen if I lose my sight suddenly because that's kind of how it how it happens. How did you deal with the immediate effect of thinking, ‘how is this going to affect my business?' Jessie: Yeah, well, so I have actually been dictating for quite a few years. So that's a big part of my writing process now. I was like, okay, I can keep dictating things. Editing is going to be a little harder, you know, you can get your computer to read to you, but it's a different skill set, I guess. I had a really good friend in college who was completely blind, and she was also an English major. So I was like, I know these tools are out there. Even 20 years ago, Erin was doing all this amazing stuff and completely able to read and write and do everything that I do for my job, but I hadn't really used them. So I was going from, okay, I have one eye that can look at the screen for just long enough to try to figure out how the screen reader works, and then I'd close my eyes and listen for a minute and be like, wait, where was that? How do I edit that? The adaptability stuff was really kind of tough to access even though I had been dictating, so at least I had that skill set. So I dictated a lot of emails and texts and stuff at first, especially on my phone. I have a Mac and an iPhone, and I found that the dictation software on iOS was a lot easier to work with than the dictation software just on the Mac. So I ended up just mostly working on my phone, which wasn't great for looking at the small screen. Of course, I bumped up all the text. I put it in like old lady mode. I just turned 40 this year and I'm like, well, I guess we're doing old lady mode on the phone. Joanna: Well, that's really interesting. A few things to come back on here. I mean, we've known each other quite a long time now, I guess since we met over in Oregon probably like a decade ago now. You've always been calm. When I think of you, I think of you as this calm person. But, I mean, was there any freaking out or were you afraid? Or— Have you just been this calm person throughout? Jessie: I have been, I guess, shockingly calm. I say shockingly, because even in my own mind, I feel like I could have been a little more freaked out. But I knew almost immediately what had happened and that I've lost vision in that eye, and so my brain was almost immediately like, okay, well, you can't go back from that, so what's the next step? The next step is we drive to the hospital. The next step is we lay here nicely while people stitch us up. So my brain was just like, okay, let's just do the next thing, next thing, taking deep breaths. I remember at one point, I was asking—because there was the writer part of my brain that was like, “Oh, interesting, this is what it's like to be in a hospital, this is what an emergency room was like,” and I was like, ‘shut up, I just got shot, I don't need you cataloguing details.' I was talking to one of the nurses as I was waiting to get a CAT scan, and I asked her what the beeping was. I thought it was probably the heart rate, but it seemed really slow. And she's like, yeah, that's your heart rate monitor, and it's very slow, it's very calm, that's good. And I was like, oh, that meditation I've been doing lately must be working. I had already told them that I was an author and had been selling books at the street fair, and she was like, well, if your book is about meditation, I'll read it because I can't believe you're lying there so quietly. Joanna: That is so interesting. And I mean, I have had laser eye surgery, and obviously completely different, but I was lying under the machine. I'll never forget it, I was lying under the machine and you look up at a laser, and there's a smell of sort of burning, and I wrote a story about it, With A Demon's Eye, and I put that kind of in that story. But I know that sensation of being there, going with that writer half of your brain, going, “Oh, oh, this is going to be part of a book someday!” So I mean, but this is the thing, you must have been in shock. I mean, you had head trauma. You've been shot. Was your husband freaking out far more than you, do you think? Jessie: He was. So we only live about 10 minutes away from this hospital, so my friend called him as soon as he dropped me off, and Rob was there almost immediately. I remember just trying to tell the doctors, they're like, “Your husband's outside. Do you want him to come in?” And I was like, “Yes. Tell him I'm okay. Make sure he knows I'm okay,” because I knew I was just covered in blood, but I also knew that I was okay, and I felt like I was still thinking very clearly. At that point, they'd done the CAT scan, and they were like, okay, the bullet stopped in your eye, it didn't go into your brain. I was like, thank god, because that could have been so much worse. But I knew I did not look like I was okay, so I kept just being like, let him know I'm fine. But, of course, I couldn't see what it looked like. My parents showed up later, and they live three hours away, so they drove down so they could be there before my surgery the next morning. The same thing, like my dad walked i

How can you create a high-quality photo book and publish it on Kickstarter? How do you market a beautiful, high-value book? Jeremy Bassetti talks about his photo book project, Hill of the Skull. In the intro, Slow release book strategies [ALLi]; Seth Godin on how he is using ChatGPT; Consultants using AI worked faster and produced higher quality results [Ethan Mollick]; DALL-E includes text and consistent characters [OpenAI, Examples on X]; More authors suing OpenAI [The Verge]. Plus, Writing the Shadow Kickstarter; Gold cover video; Wing of an Angel Kickstarter; Pics of Norway on Instagram @jfpennauthor Today's show is sponsored by Ingram Spark, which I use to print and distribute my print-on-demand books to 40,000 retailers including independent bookstores, schools and universities, libraries, and more. It's your content—do more with it through IngramSpark.com. Jeremy Bassetti is a travel writer, editor, teacher, and author of historical fiction, as well as the host of the Travel Writing World Podcast. His latest project is The Hill of the Skull: A Photobook Memoir, launching on Kickstarter. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Tips for capturing travel experiences for later reference Legal and ethical concerns in publishing photos of people The multilayered editing process of a photo book Sourcing a printer for high-quality books Adding different levels and products to a Kickstarter campaign Why Kickstarter vs. other publishing methods The importance of marketing You can find Jeremy at JeremyBassetti.com, his podcast at TravelWritingWorld.com, and his Kickstarter here. Transcript of Interview with Jeremy Bassetti Joanna: Jeremy Bassetti is a travel writer, editor, teacher, and author of historical fiction, as well as the host of the Travel Writing World Podcast. His latest project is The Hill of the Skull: A Photobook Memoir, launching on Kickstarter. So welcome back to the show, Jeremy. Jeremy: Thanks for having me. It's good to hear your voice again. Joanna: Absolutely. Now, you were on the show talking about the wider aspects of travel writing in September 2021. So we're gonna just jump straight into your new project today. The tagline for The Hill of the Skull is — “A professor visits a sacred mountain in Bolivia and gets pulled into a world of ritual” — which sounds super cool. Tell us about the trip that inspired the book. Jeremy: So in, I guess, the fall of 2022, I went on sabbatical from my work, I'm a professor by day. Part of the mission for me during my sabbatical was to do research on mountain cultures, and you know, how people around the world think about mountains. Leading up to that trip, I read from Victoria Preston, somebody who I know you've spoken to before about pilgrimages. I read in her book many years before that something about a community and a pilgrimage in the Bolivian Andes, in some kind of remote region in a town that many people haven't heard of. So I made it kind of my mission to go to this town during this pilgrimage to see what was going on there and to do research. The name of the town is called Quillacollo, and it's not a small town, but it's a town that many people haven't heard of.  There's this kind of incredible festival there every August. On the surface, it's to celebrate the ascension of the Virgin Mary, but when you see what's going on, in terms of the rituals and the ceremonies around this kind of sacred hill, you can see that there's this incredible fusion of native Andean ideas and traditions and rituals blended and fused with Catholic. So you have this kind of fusion of pagan and Catholic practices happening during this pilgrimage. It's quite incredible. So that was the motivation for me to go to this corner of the world. Joanna: I mean, it sounds very cool. But Bolivia, what's your attraction to South America? Have you traveled there before? Because, obviously, there are pagan and Catholic rituals all over the world. Why Bolivia? Jeremy: Well, frankly, I had never been to South America. I'd studied about colonial Latin America and Bolivia in grad school, especially around silver, and Bolivia is the place when you're talking about silver during the colonial era. So it's always kind of been on my radar. This place in particular was just so fascinating to me because, well, frankly, I'd never heard of it. There's this big celebration, there's a lot going on, there was just something that was kind of magical that pulled me in that direction. I wanted to go far field. It was my sabbatical, so I wanted to go someplace that would be challenging for me to visit and something that would kind of tie into my larger research interests, which involves looking at the ideas of mountains around the world. So, Bolivia, of course, is like a mountainous region, right? The city that I visited, Quillacollo, by no stretch is a low-lying city. It's like 1500 feet. I come from Florida, right? It's like zero feet, it's like sea level. By Bolivian standards, 8,500 feet, I don't know what that is in meters, maybe 2500 or something, that's quite low. But for us, I mean, we really feel it. So Bolivia was a place that was on my radar, someplace that I just had to go, because mountains are so central and so important to this place. It's a keystone to the research that I was doing, really. Joanna: It's interesting that you mentioned the silver there because on my Books and Travel Podcast, I had Shafik Meghji. I think you might have had him on your podcast talking about his book about Bolivia. And again, I learned all this stuff. Like the silver that people might have, or certainly in their local museum, probably came from Bolivia. I mean, you've learned an awful lot about places, so I think that's really interesting. But you're not on the travel podcast today, you're on the publishing podcast. So let's get into that. So when you went on this sabbatical, and you went to this town— Did you intend always to write a book or did the book emerge from the trip later? Jeremy: Well, as I mentioned, this was part of my larger research goal and my larger research agenda. So I always imagined that this research would kind of factor into this work that I'm doing, this kind of writing this larger project that I'm working on, which I'm a bit hesitant to talk about. So it's always been like a part of that work. While I was there, this new story, this new quest, unfolded while I was there. So the product of this book that I'm releasing today, that I'm crowdfunding and Kickstarting, really just came out of out of being there. It wasn't something that I had planned on doing. Now, before I went, I did a pop-up newsletter that I called 30 Days in the Andes. This was just like a forcing function for me to think about, and to take photos, and to work while I was traveling, so I wouldn't confuse Bolivia as like a holiday or something. This would force me to stay rigorous, to stay on schedule, to produce work every night, to take photographs, to remind myself that this is why I'm here to do this kind of work. I had like a couple of side quests for research while I was there, but really, the book that emerged was completely different, and it was completely unexpected. That's probably why it's been so hard, and it's taken me over a year to put this book together because it really came out of the thin Andean air while I was there. Joanna: Sounds fascinating. Jeremy: I'm trying to sell it! Joanna: Absolutely. What is interesting, I mean, obviously you don't have to talk about that bigger work, but you have this research focus, almost like this great work that you have in mind, which is a future project, but this photo book came out of being there. I mean, my Pilgrimage memoir was kind of similar in that I went with one intention, and the book—well, I guess the first book, let's call it—comes out of something else and can be a bit of a surprise. You mentioned there, this pop up newsletter, which I love the idea of, 30 Days in the Andes. You were taking photos and writing things at the time. For people who want to do something like this— What are your tips for capturing the experience as it happens? Jeremy: Well, I mean, what I was doing might be a little bit different from kind of just trying to capture the experience for personal use. I was taking photographs and kind of writing things with the intention that possibly I would throw this out into the world in the pop up newsletter. That was a lot different from the personal notes and all the personal kind of data that I was collecting. So I mean, of course, I took photos. Like that was one of the kind of side quests of this trip, taking photos. Photos from Instagram @jeremybassetti You're asking, how do we make sure that we capture everything? Well, you know, every possible way. Photos, handwritten notes, I was using my iPhone. So I don't know if you use the Notes app on your iPhone, but if anybody has iPhones, you have a Notes app, but you also this app called Shortcuts, and you can set this button on your home screen, this little widget, that when you press it, it'll automatically create a new note in your notes app, date it, and it will put all of like the geo-coordinates information, append that to the note, and then open up this dictation dialog so you can just start talking, and it's speech to text. It's incredible how many words you can get down just by dictating what you're seeing, what you're feeling, and what you're experiencing. So in short, I mean, I was like a madman taking photographs, writing things down in a pocket book, taking notes, dictating into my phone. I was doing

In this solo episode, I talk about my lessons learned from 12 years as a full-time author entrepreneur. You can read/listen to previous updates at TheCreativePenn.com/timeline. In the intro, Finding readers [ALLi blog]; Writing the Shadow Kickstarter. Today's show is sponsored by ProWritingAid, writing and editing software that goes way beyond just grammar and typo checking. With its detailed reports on how to improve your writing and integration with Scrivener, ProWritingAid will help you improve your book before you send it to an editor, agent or publisher. Check it out for free or get 25% off the premium edition at www.ProWritingAid.com/joanna Joanna Penn writes non-fiction for authors and is an award-nominated, New York Times and USA Today bestselling thriller author as J.F. Penn. She’s also an award-winning podcaster, creative entrepreneur, and international professional speaker. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below. Show Notes Memoir is one of the hardest and most rewarding genres Disruption is inevitable. If you don't disrupt yourself, you will be disrupted. Disrupting my creative process with generative AI tools Disrupting my publishing and marketing process with Kickstarter and Shopify How much do I rely on Amazon for book sales and total business income? You can support the podcast on Patreon.com/thecreativepenn and get a lot more behind-the-scenes business and AI insights. You can sign up for my Author Blueprint here. You can buy my books for authors at www.CreativePennBooks.com and my fiction and memoir at www.JFPennBooks.com. Sign up for my next Kickstarter here: Writing the Shadow: Turn Your Inner Darkness Into Words. Lessons Learned from 12 Years as an Author Entrepreneur Twelve years ago, in Sept 2011, I left my day job to become a full-time author-entrepreneur. Every year since I have reflected on the journey and what I learn along the way. My challenges change and grow along with the business and you will likely be at a different stage, but I hope that you find my lessons learned useful along your own author path. You can read all my lessons learned from previous years on my timeline so far – and remember, just like everyone else, I started out by writing my first book with no audience! But with time and continued effort, everything is possible. Lesson 1: Memoir is one of the hardest and most rewarding genres I've been flirting with the idea of writing memoir for years. I've done many interviews on it (linked here), and I have reams of more personal writing in my journals and also in various draft Scrivener projects. I have shared personal anecdotes in all my non-fiction books, but the closest I've come before to memoir-ish writing is The Successful Author Mindset, which is a very personal book in many ways. But Pilgrimage: Lessons Learned from Solo Walking Three Ancient Ways is my first true memoir, combined with some practical lessons for solo walking, and tips for tackling multi-day pilgrimage walks. That book was years in the making, and the draft was around 100K, so I cut over 50% of it in the end (as I discussed more with Marion Roach Smith in a recent interview). I was so scared of publishing it and when I was about to hit Launch on the Kickstarter back in February, my heart was hammering. I was scared of judgment, I was scared of being ‘seen,' and also scared that no one would buy it, as it didn't fit with either of my brands and existing body of work. But I am so glad I gave Pilgrimage the time it needed — the years of preparation, the years of writing, and also launching it in a way that honored the book, as well as the chance to make the physical product so beautiful. It's been transformational to write and marks a new focus for my writing. It released me so I could finally write my ‘shadow' book which I've been talking about for years. Writing the Shadow: Turn Your Inner Darkness Into Words is with my editor and will launch on Kickstarter on 9 October — you can sign up for the pre-launch here. It also made far more money than I expected. The Pilgrimage Kickstarter made £25,771 (around US$32K) and I've sold 1350 copies across all the stores so far (Mar -August 2023). It's an evergreen book so that's just the beginning. The special hardback with color photos is selling well direct from my store, and given the title, you either know you want it, or it's not for you. This makes advertising it that much easier and cheaper, especially as it's not a ‘popular' genre crowded with advertisers. Writing this memoir has been rewarding creatively, emotionally, and also financially. If you have a book of your heart, a book you know only you can write, whatever the genre — please make the time to write it. You never know how it will turn out. Lesson 2: Disruption is inevitable. If you don't disrupt yourself, you will be disrupted. Back in 2013, I watched a clip of Jeff Bezos on a 60 Minutes special where he talked about Amazon being disrupted. [More recently cited in an Insider article] “Companies have short lifespans… and Amazon will be disrupted one day … I don't worry about it because I know it's inevitable.” I took note of that because I am always thinking ahead, sometimes years into the future, and preparing for what might come. (Yes, I have Futuristic in my Top 5 Clifton Strengths!) In 2021, I read Aidan McCullen's excellent book, Undisruptible: A Mindset of Permanent Reinvention for Individuals, Organisations and Life. I've recommended it several times on my podcast, and do so again here. He goes through different Phases of a company, and one section struck me in particular, “Phase 5 is where organisations and individuals stagnate, decline and decay. They compete on marketing spend rather than product innovation. They compete on price rather than demand. They facilitate price cuts through job automation, optimisation, and ‘me too' propositions, where their products become generic. When threatened by start-ups and competitors, they resort to regulation and litigation rather than creativity and reinvention.” Ring any bells?! The indie author business model has been pretty similar since 2008 when Amazon launched the international Kindle. New platforms and tools and tactics have emerged, but indie authors have mainly focused on publishing to retailers, and marketing that focuses on driving readers there. 15 years later, we are in the inevitable disruption. Here's how things have accelerated for me in the last year. (a) I've disrupted my creative process with generative AI tools We've all been using AI tools for a long time — Amazon, Google, Meta, Spotify, TikTok, as well as things like GPS — pretty much every tool we use online in some way incorporates AI. But while I've been talking about AI tools specifically for creatives since 2016 (when AlphaGo beat Lee Sodol at Go with creative move 37), it's only in the last year that we've seen an explosion in usable generative AI options for the day-to-day activities of authors. I'm using ChatGPT, Claude 2 (through Poe.com), and Sudowrite as creative collaborative co-pilot tools to: Brainstorm chapter topics for non-fiction, plot ideas for fiction, and come up with book title options. The models are particularly good for lists of things. Generate or improve book sales descriptions Generate or improve ad copy Generate character POV ideas for specific situations based on their expertise, e.g. how would an urbexer get out of this no-exit cave and use the language they would use to assess the options Get ideas for prompts I can use with AI image generation I heavily edit anything from the models, but I find working ‘with' them to be transformative for my creative process. I am having the most fun time creating with them! I'm using Midjourney (with a paid pro commercial license) as an AI image generator for: Fun! I log onto X most mornings and find an image prompt I like, then try it out as a way to expand my knowledge. I am an amateur photographer and I love visual images, so this really is fun for me. I prefer to create, rather than to scroll. Blog post header images. I used to use images from stock photo sites but now I use the Pro Midjourney account to generate a unique image per episode Book cover image elements, in the same way as I used stock photos, but instead of finding them, I generate them and send them to my (human) designer to incorporate as part of the cover. Inspiration for my characters and settings — see below, image of Sienna from Map of Shadows. I'm using these on my store, JFPennBooks.com Ad images, for more active and interesting ads I've always disclosed my use of AI tools — on my podcast and blog, within my books in the Author's Note at the back, and also on the covers of the (few) AI-narrated audiobooks I've produced. I'm a proud AI-Assisted Artisan Author, and so I am happy to disclose according to the Amazon KDP AI guidelines and the Kickstarter guidelines. If you'd like to read/listen to more conversations on AI, check out my resources here. (b) I have disrupted my publishing and marketing process with Kickstarter and Shopify Back in 2008, I was laid off from my IT contract along with so many other people during the Global Financial Crisis. It was my only source of money, and I swore then that I would never let one company control my entire income again. So I've never relied on Amazon as my primary source of total business income, but it's still been my primary source of book income. This was the year I decided to try and change that, or at least make a dent in it. To be

What's the difference between an audio book and an audio drama? What are the steps to write a script and produce it? Joanne Phillips gives her tips. In the intro, Amazon KDP's new AI content guidelines; AI at the heart of what Amazon does [The Verge]; Writing the Shadow Kickstarter; 1000 Libraries Kickstarter; Today's show is sponsored by Draft2Digital, where you can get free ebook formatting, free distribution to multiple stores, and a host of other benefits. Get your free Author Marketing Guide at draft2digital.com/penn Joanne Phillips is the author of 14 books, including romantic comedy, literary fiction, mysteries, and self-help books. She's also the scriptwriter, showrunner, and executive producer for GravyTree Media, specializing in audio drama, with Everyone's Happy out now. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes What an audio drama is compared to an audiobook or podcast The process of writing and adapting an audio drama How to cast voice actors Details on creating the raw audio, editing, and adding sound effects Time and cost commitment of creating an audio drama Incorporating AI tools into the audio production Marketing tips for fiction audio You can find Joanne at GravyTreeMedia.com Transcript of Interview with Joanne Phillips Joanna: Joanne Phillips is the author of 14 books, including romantic comedy, literary fiction, mysteries, and self-help books. She's also the scriptwriter, showrunner, and executive producer for GravyTree Media, specializing in audio drama, with Everyone's Happy out now. So welcome to the show, Jo. Joanne: Hi, Jo. It's great to be here. Joanna: I'm excited to talk to you about this topic because it's so interesting. But first up— Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and publishing. Joanne: So I've always written and made up stories, like most writers, really. I can't remember a time when I wasn't writing and creating narratives. I think it's how I make sense of the world. It's how I escaped, that sounds terrible?! Joanna: No, not at all. Joanne: It's how I kept myself company, I think, as a child. So, then my first novel took about six years to finish. I got a bit quicker as time went on. Then I began publishing chapters of it on a blog back in, I think, about 2011. Then some people seemed to like it, which was nice. Early in 2012, after I got my first Kindle and read about self-publishing in the writers magazines that I used to buy, I decided to take the plunge. That first book was called Can't Live Without, that was a rom com. It did quite well back then because that was when you could get a massive boost after going free for just a few days. Remember those days? So I just carried on self-publishing, and that's how I got into it. Joanna: You talk there about the writing side and a bit about self-publishing, but you must have been interested in audio as well. So how did that come about? And did you do that for a job or something? Joanne: No, no, I just really, really had an interest in it. I love audio drama. I always listened to it, but I never considered that I could write it. I think I did, back in my 30s, I did have a stab at writing a script for a competition. It didn't get anywhere, and it wasn't very good. So it wasn't really on my radar at the time, it was only very recently that I considered that I might be able to have a go at that. I just thought of myself more as a writer of books for a long, long time. Joanna: Well, that's encouraging. Let's just be clear about some definitions. What is audio drama versus an audiobook or a podcast? Joanne: It's interesting, isn't it? To me, an audiobook is when a book is just read out loud by an actor or a voiceover artist or the author, and that's it. Sometimes there are effects or music added, but you can tell it's a book. So say—and I've been thinking about this, about how to describe it, because it is a distinction that's quite difficult to make—so say it might sound like this, “Jane walked off the elevator and saw Martin's dead body on the floor.” I mean, it would sound better than that if somebody professional was actually doing it, but you can tell that it's a book.  In an audio drama or fiction podcast—because they're the same thing, it's just different terms for the same thing—is where there are actors. I mean, sometimes only one actor, to be fair, or two, or sometimes, like in mine, I think I ended up with nine and some more walk on parts, which was far too many to start off with, but we'll come to that. And there's a script, and you can hear the action unfolding with dialogue and sound effects. So for example, in my example I just made there with Jane and Martin, you'd hear the elevator stop, and the doors opening, and Jane's footsteps. You might hear her cry out and maybe say something like, “Oh, no, Martin's been shot!” I mean, not that, but something like that. Joanna: She might just say, “Oh, no, Martin!” and then we might hear footsteps running over something. Joanne: You've got it completely. It's more similar to TV and film, but without the pictures, except you see the pictures in your head because your brain creates them from what you're hearing. Because I always say, I mean, I've got this little kind of motto now, which is, the pictures in your head are better than TV. I think that with really, really good audio drama because you've got the actors who are bringing the script to life, and you've got the sound effects, and you create it in your mind. Whereas with TV and film, somebody else is making that for you to sit passively and look at, and it's somebody else's idea of what it looks like, whereas our imaginations are amazing. So with audio drama, and like I say, I've been a fan of audio drama for years, and I've listened to some really great audio drama from BBC and other producers like QCode and Gimlet in the early days. Oh, it's amazing. It's such an amazing immersive experience. Whereas audiobooks, although they are brilliant, there's a remove. So there's you, There's the story, and there's somebody reading the story to you. So it's more like being read to, whereas with audio drama, you're there experiencing it. I think that's the main difference for me. Joanna: Absolutely. It's funny, I have listened to some audio dramas, and not that many fiction audiobooks. I mainly listen to nonfiction audiobooks. It's funny with the audio dramas, sometimes they have really famous actors. It's like I almost don't want them to be famous when I hear their voice because I associate that voice with what they played on TV. So I almost like it when the actors are more unknown, or they're more of a voice actor than a visual actor. You know what I mean? It kind of puts something in your head otherwise. Joanne: Yeah. I know exactly what you mean. I think it can really help a production, you know, get some ears on it if you have a famous actor. But yeah, it's funny, isn't it, because you will picture that that character in your head. If you recognize the voice, you immediately picture that person or the last character that you saw them play in a TV program, but if it's an unknown, you won't do that. Joanna: It's really interesting. So then tell us— Why did you decide to get into audio drama? And tell us about Everyone's Happy. Joanne: Well, okay, Everyone's Happy. It's a dystopian sci-fi, and it is set about 50 years into the future, I would say. We're controlled by the happiness program, which is a government-mandated system where all our negative emotions are eliminated. The protagonist is a teenager called Parker, and she lives in a dome-covered city and is struggling with her emotions, which of course, she shouldn't be. She has a set of these old-school tapes that her grandma left her, and it sets her off on a journey to discover the truth. So there are themes of climate change, the nanny state, and really, whether we should all be medicated into happiness, and what the consequences of that would be. So that's Everyone's Happy in a nutshell, really. And the reason I got into it, like I was saying a bit earlier, that I love audio drama, I've been listening to it for over 30 years. I had the idea for Everyone's Happy a while ago, I struggled with mental health myself, I have bipolar disorder, and I was just really fascinated with this idea that we could be medicated into everything being fine and what that might be like. You know, as a writer, yourself, you know how you kind of like to take these ideas to the limit and think where it would go.  At first, I thought this would be a YA book, but I don't write YA. I know I write in lots of different genres, but I didn't feel that I could do this. Then how I got into audio drama, it was kind of a longer process. My partner that I'm with, we've been together a couple of years now, he works in TV. He's a sound recordist. It didn't become immediately obvious that he'd be useful—that sounds so mercenary. Joanna: I respect that! Joanne: But yeah, we obviously both have an interest in sound and audio. I began to think, oh, maybe podcasting, something like that could help. First, I thought he could help me do a podcast, but I didn't immediately think of fiction. Then serendipitously, I saw an advert last year for a course on writing fiction podcasts with Helen Cross, who was written lots for Radio 4. So I took the course, it was brilliant. I can't recommend it enough. She runs them throughout the year.  By the time I started it in September last year, I had already decided that I was going to produce this audio drama myself because I'm just indie through and throug

How can you expand the possibilities of book cover images with AI? What are some of the controversies and how can authors and designers work together with AI tools to create original design? Book cover designer Damon Freeman discusses his views. There are lots of links in the show notes below to specific resources, but of course, the AI space moves fast, so always check the Terms and Conditions of any site you want to investigate further. I also mention the free webinar on AI Ads for Authors with Mark Dawson and James Blatch. Today's show is sponsored by my wonderful patrons who fund my brain so I have time to think about and discuss these futurist topics impacting authors. If you support the show, you also get the extra monthly patron-only Q&A audio — and my tutorial on how I use Midjourney. You can support the show at www.patreon.com/thecreativepenn Damon Freeman is the founder and creative director of Damonza.com, creating custom book cover design and interior formatting for authors. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below. Show Notes Using AI tools as part of the creative process How Midjourney works Discussion on copyright How AI tools are enabling the creation of unique cover images that have been almost impossible before If AI will be able to do everything, how will creatives make a living? Tips for working with your cover designer and incorporating AI Damon has some great articles on AI images in book covers here, and he also mentions James at GoOnWrite who has an article for self-published authors around AI and images here. You can find Damon at Damonza.com. Transcript of Interview with Damon Freeman Joanna: Damon Freeman is the founder and creative director of Damonza.com, creating custom book cover design and interior formatting for authors. So welcome to the show, Damon. Damon: Thank you, Joanna. Thanks for having me. I appreciate the opportunity to chat. I'm really looking forward to it. Joanna: Oh, me too. So we're going to talk specifically about AI images as part of the design process today. But first up— Tell us a bit more about you, your design background, and how you've been working with authors for over a decade. Damon: I trained as a graphic designer, and I was working in normal graphic design businesses. I started my own company as a general kind of graphic designer many, many years ago. Over time—you know, it was going pretty well—but in around 2007, with the global financial crisis and all of those kinds of things, kind of everything just started falling apart, and it wasn't going well. Out of desperation, I started looking at other potential opportunities. I found a website, which maybe you've heard of or some of the authors, have called 99designs.com. I started pitching different kinds of design work on there to try and earn a bit of extra income. One of the kinds of work projects I was pitching on was obviously book covers, and I started getting quite a good rate on the covers. So as you may know, they only pay the designers that they select they work for. So you might be doing graphic design work, and you put in all the effort, and then your cover doesn't get picked, and that's it. So I found I was getting quite a good win rate for book covers, so I just started doing a few more of them. Eventually, it just sort of took over. I stopped my normal day job, and I just started focusing exclusively on book covers. That was in about 2010 or so. So in 2011, I started the website,  Damonza.com. It was just me doing book covers, and I was fortunate in that because of the way I'd done things before, I had quite an extensive portfolio of book covers. So I put them up on a website, and for a while the website existed, but nothing happened. Just slowly, slowly, I started picking up work and picking up authors and picking up clients. Eventually it grew quite a lot that I had to start looking at how I could service all of these clients. So I brought in somebody that used to work for me before as a graphic designer, and she started helping with the book covers, and it slowly grew from there. Now I oversee a team of designers, and we've got project managers, and the designers we work with are all over the world, but have been working with me, many of them, for seven or eight years now. We're a happy team, work well together. I still oversee all the work that goes out. Occasionally I'll do some of the designs myself. If it's a tricky one, then I might choose to do it myself. But generally, the designers that I've got working for me are amazing, often producing work that is much better than what I could do. Joanna: That's brilliant. Do you have any idea how many book covers would you have done since you started Damonza? Damon: Well over 10,000. Joanna: Right. That's what I thought because I know you've been in the space for a long time, we've been connected for a long time, although we've never spoken before today, so this is quite cool. Clearly, you're really experienced, the team is experienced, and yet some would say like, why are you so interested in AI? I mean, you've got loads of skills. Why did you want to explore AI when it has been—well, still is—pretty contentious in the art community and the author community? Damon: Well, initially, what happened was that one of the designers on the team, she had noticed that on some of the stock image websites, we use Shutterstock, and she had noticed on Shutterstock that there were new kinds of images cropping up. They all kind of had, I guess, they had a distinctive look to them, but they were really interesting. They were kind of unusual. They weren't normal. They weren't like a photograph, and they didn't really look like a 3D rendering. They were kind of something in between.  She just told me, she'd found Midjourney, and she said, “Look at these images. This is the software. This is the program that's being used to create these images.” I looked into it and she wanted to know now, can she use Midjourney to create images. So not really knowing how any of it worked, right, seeing that it was AI, but not really knowing how it worked. I checked the terms and conditions, and I saw, alright, fine. If you pay, you get a commercial license, and you can use these images. So I said sure, we'll get the license and she can use them. Really, in the beginning, it was just backgrounds and landscapes and those kinds of things. I guess earlier on people and those kinds of images, they didn't look very good. So it was kind of just small bits and pieces we started using, and that was it. So at the time it wasn't contentious, right? It was just another place to get images that we could license. Joanna: But obviously, it went on from there because things have moved really fast. I mean, I also got on Midjourney. So we're recording this August 2023, so important to timestamp these AI episodes. But when I got on Midjourney about a year ago, as you said, there was the joke around fingers and photos having weird stuff, and where we are now, it's like a completely different world in terms of how far it's come. Tell us what are the different ways that you're using AI tools now as part of the creative process. How have things changed, I guess, over the last year? How have things moved on? Damon: Yeah. So I mean, I guess what happened was that we still weren't using it that much, right, for quite a long time. It was really just the one designer, and you couldn't really tell where she was using it. It wasn't sort of obvious, it was always maybe a background or something like that. You couldn't really tell. What was happening was that it kind of became clear that it was getting better at what it was doing, and she was starting to question me more. Can she use it for this? Can she use it for that? And I started to kind of look into it more for a while, and they looked pretty good. It was quite interesting, it was probably in the same week or two that I said, yeah, alright, we can start using this a bit more, that I received two emails in the same week from two authors who said, “Are you using AI images in our covers? And if you are, I don't want you to.” That's how it happened. So we were barely using any AI images, and I hadn't really thought about it. It had been in our terms and conditions from the beginning that we might use these AI images from Midjourney, but we hadn't made it explicit that we were because we weren't really. So when that happened, I looked into it much more. That's when I also started doing a lot more research into generative AI and really trying to form my own opinions. — on kind of, should we use it, what is it really, those kinds of things. I mean, that's where I found a lot of your podcast, some of your articles. I found a great article, which I've referenced myself quite often, from James from GoOnWrite.com, really, really great. I thought it clarified things very, very well for me. So that was the point where we immediately sent out something to all our authors, all the clients we work with, saying, “Look, we might be using this. We think we should use it. We like it. But if you don't want to use it, we won't.” It was actually at that point that I then briefed in all the designers saying, look, this is how Midjourney works, and if it is suitable for a cover that you're working on, then, you know, go for it. These are the restrictions: Don't mention a real person's name, whether it's an author or a named style. So we don't want to copy anyone or anything like that. But this could be a way to source images that are just not available as a stock photo. The problem has always been that there are limited

How might thinking differently help you create clarity in our noisy world? How can you produce a high-quality print book — and successfully fund it on Kickstarter? Holger Nils Pohl discusses these things and more. In the intro, Copyright in an age of AI [Self Publishing Advice, Monica Leonelle, Ars Technica, The Verge, The Atlantic; Insider; Kathryn Goldman; US Government Copyright Office AI Submission]; Writing the Shadow Kickstarter; Lesbians Who Write; Pretty Links; Today's show is sponsored by Ingram Spark, which I use to print and distribute my print-on-demand books to 40,000 retailers including independent bookstores, schools and universities, libraries, and more. It's your content—do more with it through IngramSpark.com. Holger Nils Pohl is a visual strategist, professional speaker, trainer, and coach. He's also the author of multiple books, from business to children's books, as well as the co-creator of an award-winning business board game. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below. Show Notes Breaking out of the traditional publishing mindset The creative process — distilling ideas into visual images versus words Neurodiversity as a creative Living authentically and breaking out of ‘masking' Challenges of creating a high-quality book Return on investment for nonfiction authors on Kickstarter Six tips for a successful Kickstarter How creatives can create clarity and choose the right direction You can find Holger at HolgerNilsPohl.com. You can also go to HolgerNilsPohl.com/penn, and you will find examples of the visuals we discussed, as well as the process of how you can find clarity to cut through the noise in the author world, as much as the rest of your life. Sign up for the Autism children's book here. Transcript of Interview with Holger Nils Pohl Joanna: Holger Nils Pohl is a visual strategist, professional speaker, trainer, and coach. He's also the author of multiple books, from business to children's books, as well as the co-creator of an award-winning business board game. So welcome to the show, Holger. Holger: Thank you for having me, Jo. Joanna: I'm excited to talk to you. Before we get into it— Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and publishing. Holger: So while we're talking here in 2023, I'm 43 years old. I was a late reader of books, I would say. So until the age of 14, I'd only read comics and magazines, but nothing that was kind of like a book. I didn't like German or English in school, and I'm coming from Germany, by the way, you might already know from my accent.  I found my passion for reading crime and science fiction, as well as fantasy, a bit later. At the age of 14/15, I started to read, and then I never stopped. I'm kind of a whale reader, I read very fast and very much. I always have trouble to find more new books that I can read because somehow I read faster than the market can provide me with books sometimes.  I love the pen and pen roleplay and, as well, developed new worlds and systems with my friends to play that, but I never had the urge to write anything but always to create. I love to create.  I got distracted from all of this by university because I had to find something that is worthwhile spending your working life. Everybody told me you need to be an engineer or do something proper, and not be just creative. By now we know that this was stupid advice, but back then I didn't know. I tried architecture, I broke up from university after one and a half years, I became a carpenter then, I did an apprenticeship as a carpenter, and afterwards became a designer. And luckily enough, that was a good fit for me. In 2009, I started my self-employment right after the university.  I work with visuals. I teach, as well, people to draw. But at some point, people were begging me to write about my knowledge about business, as well as how we can communicate better with visual tools, and everything I have done in the past. People asked me for so long, basically for three or four years, that I started writing, and then I never get out of that again. I started writing, and I couldn't stop, and somehow the nonfiction opened up an avenue for my fiction writing. So I wanted to write fiction, and now I'm all over the place with writing, while still being a consultant and coach full time. Joanna: Well, can I also ask you about the self-publishing side? Because you and I have been connected now for many years, and I feel like, I don't even know, do you know how many years? Holger: I mean, I've been following you for, I guess, seven years now. So yeah, quite a while. Joanna: So seven years, so maybe 2016-ish. And it's interesting because, of course, Germany I feel is even more traditional around literature, and proper books, and proper publishing. How did you break out of that mindset that traditional publishing is the only valid path in Germany, in particular? Or is that just part of you being more of a designer? Because it's a strong feeling in Germany, I think, not to be self-published. Although I know some Germans listening will be like, “No, no, we're a very big indie community.” But it has been a slower trend, I think. Holger: Oh, yeah, definitely. And I would still say, it's predominantly traditional publishing here in Germany. I actually had my first book traditionally published, and it was a huge failure in terms of sales. I still get my check, which is basically 12 euros per year or something. So we sell like 10 to 20 books per year with our publisher. That was from year one, so it was not that we had a high peak or something. I was super disappointed with that first book, especially with the process with the traditional publisher, and that was basically the thing that pushed me into self-publishing, because I said, I can do that better. If I could decide the things myself that the publisher decided for me, in that case, this could have been a better book. That drove me to self-publishing and actually to your podcast in the first place. I think the first book I published in 2015, and I listened to you and thought I can do that myself. But saying that, it's still super difficult to do that in Germany, especially. It's way easier for me to publish in the US, the UK, everywhere around the world, not in the German-speaking countries. Joanna: Yes, and I've heard that from other German indie authors. These things emerge at different times in different countries. People listening, we've got listeners from over 220 countries, and I think it's probably still much easier in Germany than it is in a lot of countries in the world. We appreciate you listeners in other places! Let's get back to your books and what you do because you are, as you mentioned, you're a designer, you're a creator, and you use a lot of visual images. It's very hard because this is an audio medium, but tell us— How does your creative process work differently in terms of distilling ideas into visual images versus words? Because they're just so different. Holger: Yeah, that's true. Let me just back up for a second and give a short definition of what we say when we mean visuals. And again, that is difficult to explain with only audio, but I think we will manage. So I don't mean paintings or photographs or generated pictures when I say visuals. NOTE: Speedboat for character development shown below is by Holger Nils Pohl, used with permission. You can download this and other useful images at http://holgernilspohl.com/penn So when I say visuals, I mainly mean drawings that are quickly done, more like icons, I would say. If you imagine a picture in your head right now, it could be like a hand drawn icon, I would say, and perhaps emojis to express ideas and concepts. I think that's what I say when I say visuals, Joanna: On your style, I almost think of it as professional cartooning. Holger: Okay. If you see like that, we can say that too. Okay, I agree with that. Joanna: Is that okay? It's got more of that vibe, as you say, it's kind of hand drawn, but it looks more professional than I would hand draw something. Holger: Okay, I can agree on that. A lot of people when they see my work, they think that I think as well in visuals, and I distill ideas right into visuals. But the funny thing is that I always need the words first, before I can put them into visuals. Because still, my brain works based on words, and I think all the brains we have work based on words. Of course, we have visuals in our head, but most of the time we think in logical structures step by step in words, and I translate those words into visuals. So what I do is, first of all, and I think your question brought me two new insights, actually. I think the first most important thing is intention. So compared to other people — When I am in a creative process, I have the intention to make something visual, compared to just writing words down. So everything I listen to, I always translate them in parallel to: how could I express that in visuals? How would that look like in a structure? How would things be connected to each other? Would that be a Venn diagram? Would that be like a pie chart? Would there be a timeline? Which kind of visuals would I use? I'm always reflecting on when I hear something, like how would that look like? It makes it easier for me to see my ideas as well because if I only have words, sometimes it's difficult to read through them. It takes a long time. When I see a visual that I have drawn, everything becomes super clear very fast to me. Joanna: I'm just writing some notes down there because you said there that you have words first and

How can you stop self-censoring your writing and share the deepest aspects of yourself with your readers? How can you break poetry out of the restraints that many try to put upon it? Stephanie Wytovich talks about these things and more. In the intro, 5 trends that are shifting the future of publishing with Monica Leonelle & Russell Nohelty; Direct Sales Strategies We Love from 36 Authors from BookBub; JFPennBooks Reading Order; AI Training Permission from Hugh Howey; Eleven Labs for AI voices and VoiceSwitcher with Storytel; Plus, Kickstarter for Writing the Shadow: Turn Your Inner Darkness Into Words; Chuck Palahniuk on James Altucher talking about unmasking shadows; Carl Jung's Red Book, which features in Stone of Fire. This podcast is sponsored by Written Word Media, which makes book marketing a breeze by offering quick, easy and effective ways for authors to promote their books. You can also subscribe to the Written Word Media email newsletter for book marketing tips. Stephanie M. Wytovich is a Bram Stoker award-winning poet, as well as a horror novelist and essayist. She's also the poetry editor for Raw Dog Screaming Press and the editor of Writing Poetry in the Dark. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below. Show Notes Allowing poetry to break out from fitting in a box How to put together a poetry collection Balancing writing for therapy and writing for the reader Ways to stop ourselves from self-censoring Where the darker sides of ourselves come from The horror genre and what it encompasses Differences between mainstream books and award winners Benefits of being involved with a community of writers You can find Stephanie at StephanieMWytovich.com and on social media at @SWytovich and @TheHauntedBookshelf Transcript of Interview with Stephanie M. Wytovich Joanna: Stephanie M. Wytovich is a Bram Stoker award-winning poet, as well as a horror novelist and essayist. She's also the poetry editor for Raw Dog Screaming Press and the editor of Writing Poetry in the Dark, which is fantastic. So welcome, Stephanie. Stephanie: Hi. Thank you so much for having me today. Joanna: I'm really looking forward to our conversation. But first up— Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing. Stephanie: So I wear a lot of hats in my day-to-day life. So I teach literature and creative writing, I work in a couple of undergrad and grad programs, and then, of course, I'm writing, and I had my first child back in 2022. Writing has kind of been this constant catharsis and quiet time to collect my thoughts during all of the madness of my day-to-day. I've been writing for as long as I can remember. I always loved to make up stories as a child, and the only thing that really changed was that they got darker and darker as I grew on. Then they just continued to get more morose and terrifying as I moved further into adulthood. But writing, and especially writing poetry has always been what I identify as in everything, you know, first and foremost. Poetry has really changed my life in so many ways, which is why I was so honored to have the opportunity to put out this book with Raw Dog Screaming Press, Writing Poetry in the Dark, because I want to bring some of that joy that poetry has given me and share it to make it more accessible with other people. Joanna: There's a lot there, but you said that you really identify with poetry. I want to get into that first, and then we'll come back to some of the other darker stuff. From your editor's note in Writing Poetry in the Dark, you said, “I stopped trying to fit poetry in a box of what I thought it was, and instead opened my eyes to what poetry could be.” I love that because I was taught poetry at school, and it was like, ‘this is literature, it needs to be this particular thing.' So tell us how we can do this. How do we allow poetry to break out of the box? Or how have you done this? Stephanie: Yeah, I mean, I had a very, very similar experience. I think as children, we're given poetry all the time. We're reading nursery rhymes and fairy tales, and we're getting all of these different versions of poetry that are fun, and creative, and whimsical, and dark, and weird, and all of the above, and we attach to it. Then something happens around middle school, we're usually introduced to Edgar Allan Poe, and we see how it can be dark. We get Emily Dickinson and we're like, oh my gosh, there's this whole other world, like this is so cool. Then we get to high school, and like you said, it's very much like, read 17 Shakespearean sonnets and write me a poem in iambic pentameter or you fail AP English. Like all of the joy is just kind of squashed because it becomes this very serious, terrifying thing. That's not saying that formal poetry isn't wonderful and expressive, because it is, but I think there's this shift where it becomes fun and imaginative to very serious and kind of scary, and we lose some of the creativity and joy that's associated with it. For me, my journey with it is a little bit different, odd, I'm not sure quite the right word to really pinpoint it. I started writing poetry when I was probably around middle school, maybe a little bit younger. I was in therapy at the time, and I was having a really hard time talking about some of the things that I was struggling with. My therapist had recommended to me that I start writing poetry and keeping a journal to say the things that I wanted to say, but trusting that nobody else was seeing them. That really opened a door for me in a lot of different ways in my life to kind of get all the darkness out on the page and be really vulnerable without the fear of somebody reading it and judging me or something like that. So I tried to keep my version of poetry and then the version of poetry that everybody told me that I had to be writing and reading very separate. It wasn't until probably later on in college, maybe my junior or senior year, I realized that I had all of this poetry that I wanted to start putting together maybe as a collection. I gave myself a personal challenge or maybe a reading list where I wanted to start reading 30 collections of poetry every year to see what was out there. So I read classics, I read literary, I read Pablo Neruda's romance sonnets that he wrote to his wife, I read tons of Poe, and Sexton and Sylvia Plath. Then I started reading a lot of contemporary writers that were getting more political with diversity and inclusivity. I was reading Latin American poetry, and I was reading a lot of, you know, black voices and queer voices. I was seeing how there could be this shift, that everybody's poetry looked different. And it was kind of my lightbulb moment that—I don't want to say that there isn't a definite way to write poetry because we can all read poetry and kind of be like, oh, this person really gets it, or maybe this person still needs a little bit of work in their writing—but it really opened the door that I could be creative and push boundaries. It didn't have to be this right or wrong way, like I got when I had to write my sonnet in AP English. Then it was really funny because last year, I had an editor reach out to me who specifically wanted me to write a Shakespearean horror sonnet. And I laughed, and I was like, oh, if somebody could find my Achilles heel, like this man did it. This man is like triggering all of my poetry woes. I had a moment where I was like, do I want to do this? Then I absolutely was, like, I actually have to do. I have to prove to myself that I can sit down and do this, but do it my way. When I finished the poem and it eventually sold, it was kind of like my crowning achievement, that like somehow I had gone full circle on life and everything was gonna be okay. Joanna: It's so interesting listening to you talk about it because you also have novels, you have essays, you edit, so you see all these different things. I struggle enough with a short story, and it almost feels like the intensity level of a poem is more than the intensity of a short story, which is more intense than a novel. So when you say like, “Oh, I just read 30 collections in a year,” like, I have quite a lot of poetry on my shelves, and I like reading poetry, but it's almost like I'll pull a book off, and I'll read one poem and that will be enough. I know you have a poetry collection coming out. So maybe tell us about how you put one together. How do you balance this intensity idea with a poetry collection? Which is almost like, I don't know, 60 novels or something. How do you put together a poetry collection? Stephanie: Yeah, well, this next one that's coming out is unlike anything I've ever done before. It's called On the Subject of Blackberries, and it's coming out from Raw Dog Screaming Press in September. It is a collection that I quite literally wrote in three months when I was postpartum, right after having my first child. I guess which is already like a weird thing, but like to make it even stranger. How I came about writing it was I had a really, really difficult time postpartum. I was diagnosed with depression, I had postpartum OCD, which is still something that I'm struggling with, and then I was trying to adjust to being a new mom. Like I had every feeling, and probably feelings that nobody's put a name to yet, like kind of on my shoulders. My comfort book, which is something that I read pretty regularly, is We Have Always Lived in the Castle by Shirley Jackson, which I know is a weird comfort, nevertheless. So I picked that up because I wanted something familiar, and I wanted something to kind of quell my nerves. I started writing poems that we

How can you build an author business for the long term, and not just for the launch of one book? How do you ensure secure cash flow and profits, instead of focusing on short-term spike sales? Joe Solari discusses key aspects of your author business. In the intro, Kobo Plus expands to audiobooks in Australia & New Zealand; Thoughts on the changing publishing environment based on Thrillerfest Audios (well worth buying!), and you can book for Thrillerfest 2024 here; Letter to the FTC from The Authors Guild, American Booksellers Association and the Open Markets Institute on Amazon dominance in the industry. Plus, my next book for authors Writing the Shadow: Turn Your Inner Darkness Into Words will be out on Kickstarter in October, sign up for the pre-launch here; Great examples of creative extras in Sara Rosett's campaign Murder in the Alps; and I'm on the Travelling Through Podcast on a walk and talk along the canal. Today's show is sponsored by ProWritingAid, writing and editing software that goes way beyond just grammar and typo checking. With its detailed reports on how to improve your writing and integration with Scrivener, ProWritingAid will help you improve your book before you send it to an editor, agent or publisher. Check it out for free or get 25% off the premium edition at www.ProWritingAid.com/joanna Joe Solari helps authors build great businesses through books, courses, podcasting, as well as strategy and operations consulting. He is the author of Advantage: Harnessing Cumulative Advantage in the Winner Takes All Publishing Market and May I Have a Moment of Your Attention: How to Be Heard in a Noisy Market. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Can every author learn to be a business person? Budgeting as an author and solving cashflow issues Business models for fiction vs nonfiction authors Managing the problem of scale as your audience grows Thinking longer term with asset creation Using reader data to make more direct sales The future of 50Booksto50k You can find Joe at JoeSolari.com and more about his future conferences at AuthorVenturesLLC.com Transcript of Interview with Joe Solari Joanna: Joe Solari helps authors build great businesses through books, courses, podcasting, as well as strategy and operations consulting. He is the author of Advantage: Harnessing Cumulative Advantage in the Winner Takes All Publishing Market and May I Have a Moment of Your Attention: How to Be Heard in a Noisy Market. So welcome to the show, Joe. Joe: Thanks for having me on, Joanna. This is great. Joanna: I'm excited to talk to you. As I mentioned before we started recording, we've kind of circled around each other online for years, and I'm so glad to finally talk to you. Joe: Yeah, there's been some near misses. Like, oh, we may be at the same event, and then COVID comes or who knows. Joanna: Absolutely. For those people who might not have heard of you— Tell us a bit more about how you got into writing and business for authors. Joe: Sure, sure. The funny thing is, there's nothing you could have ever done to prepare yourself for what I do today, like this didn't exist 10 years ago. So it's funny to kind of look back and understand the process. My background, I've got an undergrad in art from the Art Institute of Chicago. So I've got a creative background. I've got a master's in business administration from University of Chicago. So I have this strange mix of creative and analytical, and I've been entrepreneurial my whole life. So I've owned and operated multiple businesses.  What specifically got me into publishing, was my wife decided to write some books, some nonfiction books about styling. At the time, I was really busy with a startup business in the oil and gas industry, so I was like completely not even thinking about books, and she was having issues. This was like 2013/2014, so you remember how fun it was to try and get a book uploaded or do anything on these platforms. She had some technical issues, I came in to help, and when I looked in her KDP account, there was $4,000. I was like, oh, this is interesting for a book about t-shirt and jeans to make $4,000 in a month. I need to know more about this.  I started listening to your podcast and I started listening to Mark's. It's interesting thinking back then, there wasn't a lot of stuff that I could find, most of the good stuff was actually coming out of the UK, people that were really kind of the leaders in the self-publishing piece. So that was where I was learning.  Then when I sold that business, I decided to write a book, because if my wife could, why couldn't I? It was a book about business for creatives. And like most nonfiction books, it didn't sell a whole lot. Of the copies I did sell, it seemed like most of them were to this group called 20Booksto50k, and I had authors reaching out to me asking me questions. So I went into this group, and at the time I think they were about 7000 people, which was huge, right? They're 10 times that now, and I started helping them answer business questions. Where the real magic of what I do today happened was at that first 20Books. So I went to that conference, I was asked to speak there, and I saw this opportunity of there were authors that were making a lot of money—I had no idea that a fiction author could make that kind of money—but they didn't even have the basics of business strategies or structure set up. So they were very tax inefficient, there was liability exposure, there was all kinds of things that me as a business person just made my skin crawl. So I picked up the phone, and I was standing in Sam's Town, and I called my business partner Lisa, who's a CPA, and I said, “I'm at this conference, and this is what's going on. There's this amazing opportunity. I feel like I'm sitting on courtside for this amazing thing, this golden age of content unfolding in front of me. I think we could help these people by helping them organize their businesses.” And she's like, “Well, I'm up for it.” And I came away with three clients.  So today what I'm doing, the bulk of the work is Lisa and I are helping authors that are very successful to be better in how they operate their business and understand why—this is a big part of this—is why are they doing what they're doing today. Not just like their love for writing, but like once you get successful, really understanding what your goals are in your life. Not using the goals of the industry, but like — What's going to get you up every morning to really work on that business and write those books? Joanna: Oh, that's fantastic. I love that. I also was actually in oil and gas, but my last consulting job was with a mining company, but I also worked at gas companies in Australia. So It's kind of funny that we had that little intersection. But I also came out of business of 13 years IT consulting, and I arrived as well, in sort of 2008 I started, but you know, really when indie started taking off. I was really quite shocked by how little business information and knowledge there was in the industry. What's so funny is I also published a book called Business for Authors, and nobody bought it. Nobody. Like maybe 10 people bought that book. So it's funny that you also wrote the same book. Joe: Yeah, and I sold it to the other six. Joanna: Exactly. Maybe they bought both of our books. Joe: They probably bought both. We probably duplicated the market. Joanna: I'm sure we did because mine also covers things, you know, just covers things that you would get in like an MBA. Then what I realized is that many authors don't want to run a business. So I actually repackaged some of that information and rewrote it as How To Make A Living With Your Writing, which is one of my top selling nonfiction books. So what's so interesting was reframing things from running a business to making money. You and I would think, okay, that that seems quite similar, but so this is where my question is, which is, I have found that most authors they want to write, they want to make money, but they don't want to run a business. So I wondered— Are some people just not suited to business? Or is this something that you think every single person can learn? Joe: So what I've observed being around this, I think one thing is there's this kind of mythology that like, oh, well, if you're a creative, you can't be good at business. And actually, that's completely wrong. Creativity is a huge part of entrepreneurship. You're taking something that doesn't exist, it's ideas in your head, and you're turning it into some type of solution or entertainment for people that they're prepared to give you cash for. You're manifesting physical things into the real world from your creativity. And you're doing it because one of the things is you want to get paid. So that's a very creative process. So I think one thing is just a mindset change of like, no, actually, the best entrepreneurs are people that are creative. Then there's, well, I just don't like all this numbers stuff and these thing. Well, you have to look at that stuff as just kind of tools in a toolbox, that even if you're weak in, if you get some level of strength, you're going to be a lot stronger. You have to do this if you want to make money from your writing. If you just want to write a book because it's in your soul, and it needs to get out in the world, and you don't care about selling it, you don't have to worry about the commercial aspects of your business. But once you set that framework of, I want to make money, I want to make a living from this, whatever amount that is, then you have to

How can you create a book series that children love — and that you can expand into multiple streams of income? How can you offer a fantastic experience to schools — and get paid well for your time? Tonya Duncan Ellis gives her tips. In the intro, investment firm KKR will buy Simon & Schuster [Publishing Perspectives]; Subscriber Surge Giveaways [Written Word Media]; Key Book Publishing Paths [Jane Friedman]. Plus, lots happening with Amazon. I would rather see my books get pirated than this (Or why Goodreads and Amazon are becoming dumpster fires) by Jane Friedman; Blockchain for provenance and copyright with Roanie Levy; “Every single one” of Amazon’s businesses has “multiple generative AI initiatives going right now.” [The Verge]; Amazon AI tool coming for writing product descriptions [The Information]; FTC antitrust lawsuit [Politico]; Amazon is “eliminating dozens of its private label brands” which may help “placate antitrust regulators” [Wall St Journal]; “Amazon will be disrupted,” says Jeff Bezos (in 2013) [Insider]. This podcast is sponsored by Kobo Writing Life, which helps authors self-publish and reach readers in global markets through the Kobo eco-system. You can also subscribe to the Kobo Writing Life podcast for interviews with successful indie authors.  Tonya Duncan Ellis is the award-winning author of the Sophie Washington chapter book series and activity books, as well as a professional speaker. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Beginning your career as a self-published author Tips for working with an illustrator Deciding what to write about throughout a chapter book series Creating additional products from your intellectual property Earning an income from professional school visits How to market and prepare for school visits Networking and co-promoting with other authors You can find Tonya at TonyaDuncanEllis.com, on Instagram @TonyaEllisBooks, and on Twitter @TonyaDEllis Transcript of Interview with Tonya Duncan Ellis Joanna: Tonya Duncan Ellis is the award-winning author of the Sophie Washington chapter book series and activity books, as well as a professional speaker. So welcome, Tonya. Tonya: Thank you, Joanna, for having me. I'm so excited to be here. Joanna: We're talking about books for children, which is a really popular topic. But first up— Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and publishing. Tonya: Well, I'm a Houston Texas-based children's author. I started writing from a very young age. When I was 10 years old, I won a writing competition at my school, and my teachers encouraged me to continue with writing. Back then I had never met an author or thought that that was within the realm of possibility for me to become an actual author. I did pursue journalism. I learned about writing for newspapers because I thought that would be a great way to make an income and get a job in writing. So after college, I worked as a journalist for a while. Then I worked in corporate America in business for a while in marketing departments. When I got married, I had three children and I was home with them, but I was able to do freelance writing for some magazines in my community, which I did for about 10 years. During that time, I would read a lot with my children, and I had always wanted to write a book. It was kind of like a bucket list item I wanted to do. And I said, you know, I could write a children's book that might be interesting for my kids because living here in Houston, we have alligators in our neighborhood, you'll see wild boar running around, there's all kinds of interesting things going on. I said that this would be a fun story that I could write just for my children, kind of a fun thing to do.  So I wrote the first book in my series, Sophie Washington: Queen of the Bee, and I shared it with the librarian at my children's school. And she told me, you know, you really have something here because it has an African American family going through just normal life experiences, not traumatic experiences, which are things you typically see when you have an African American protagonist in a lot of the children's books that are out. So she said, this kind of fills a niche. She supported me and promoted me with having my first school visit. Then I started doing some community events with the book, and writing other books, and they've just grown. Now I have 13 books in the series, and I've sold over 150,000 books. Joanna: That is amazing. We're going to come back on a lot of those different things. But I want to ask, first of all, about the series because you said you wrote the first book, and the librarian was encouraging, and now you've got 13. I feel like this is something that is important for success, is that one book is just not enough. But when you wrote that first book, did you decide you wanted to write a series? Or— How did you decide to go into this whole series idea? Tonya: I did conceive of it as a series because my children loved reading chapter book series. And so when I came up with the idea for the first book, I said, I'll have a little girl from Houston. Houston is the fourth largest city in the United States and very diverse, so I wanted to show the diversity in the series. So I came up with an idea of having a series, and my idea was maybe to have five to ten books, and it just kept growing. So I did think about it as a series when I was conceiving the first book. Joanna: And did you ever think about pitching traditional publishing with those books? Or— Did you always want to self-publish? Tonya: At the beginning, I just thought about self-publishing. I didn't know much about the process of pitching to traditional publishing companies, and I really didn't even imagine it growing as much as it did. It was kind of like a fun thing I wanted to do for myself. I'd always just wanted to write a book. So I didn't even think about approaching traditional publishers with these books initially. Now, one of my books, book eight in the series, Sophie Washington: Code One, is about the children in a computer coding competition, and Scholastic actually bought rights to that book for a STEM program in 2021. So they did approach me with that.  When I started, I was thinking of myself as an indie author. And really, I started out with a hybrid company, and I see now they were on ALLi's watchdog list as a company to watch out for, but I didn't know that at the beginning. I didn't know anything about ALLi or anything. And so when I started with them, as I started growing, I realized I need to learn all the elements of being an indie author of my own. That's kind of how I found information from you, Joanna Penn, all of your educational materials on self-publishing. I ran across those, and I read all your books, looked at your marketing materials, and learned so much that helped me grow my series. Joanna: Oh, well, I'm so glad to help. And just so people know, you mentioned ALLi, that's the Alliance of Independent Authors. They have a watchdog list, which has companies to watch out for, so I'll link to that in the show notes. It's interesting because so many people start with those type of companies because I guess you're on Google, and they're the ones who are advertising usually. So I feel that's how people get there. We're not going to mention any names, but— How did you go from working with one of those author services companies to deciding to do it yourself? Was it the money, or was it that you just got a feeling that you wanted to do it yourself? Tonya: It was the money. As my series started taking off, they weren't paying me all my royalty checks. I was getting frustrated. And also, when I started learning things from your materials, I wanted to do more with my own marketing on Amazon and doing different things. I wanted to make my first book perma-free. I couldn't do those because they were listed as the publisher, and then I'd have to pay them every time I wanted to do anything. So I realized I wanted my series to grow, and I couldn't continue with that. Then they started keeping some of my royalties. I said, no, we've got to put a stop to this. So that's when I took over the reins and learned how to do everything myself. Joanna: So how did you resolve that situation? Because again, people email me all the time and say, I did this thing with this company, and now I don't know what to do about it. How did you get those books out of that situation? Tonya: I had to have them write a letter. I just requested that they write a letter turning the rights back over. In my initial contract, it stated that they didn't have the rights to my intellectual property. So they wrote the letter, and then I took over from there. Joanna: Oh, that's quite good then. So that's good that you checked that original contract and made sure everything was good. So you get all those back and control everything. Just going back to when you're creating these books in the first place, one of the hard things about books for children is illustration, and you've got lovely illustrations. So how did you find that process? How did you find your illustrator? And what are your tips? Tonya: So for me, my books are paperback illustrated chapter books with black and white illustrations, about 20 inside each book, and then they have the color cover. Initially, I had a local artist in my area cover the first book, and she had never illustrated a children's book. The book cover was nice, but it wasn't exactly what I wanted. Then for the second book, I used another illustrator who was an art teacher at

How can AI tools help authors who struggle with energy and time because of disability, chronic pain, health conditions, post-viral fatigue, or other unavoidable life issues? Steph Pajonas explains why AI is important for accessibility and more. Today's show is sponsored by my wonderful patrons who fund my brain so I have time to think about and discuss these futurist topics impacting authors. If you support the show, you also get the extra monthly patron-only Q&A audio. You can support the show at www.patreon.com/thecreativepenn S.J. Pajonas is the USA Today Best Selling author of science fiction, romance and cozy mystery, with over 30 books under two pen names. She also started the Facebook group AI Writing for Authors, and is one of the founders of the Future Fiction Academy, teaching authors how to harness the power of AI to revolutionize the world of fiction writing. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below. Show Notes Using AI tools to overcome brain fog and help brainstorm AI tools to help writers with disabilities How to stand out in a saturated market Generative search for creating a more nuanced search Using AI as a co-writer and having fun What is the Future Fiction Academy and how does it help others? You can find Steph at SPajonas.com, FutureFictionAcademy.com, or at the AI Writing for Authors Facebook Group. Transcript of Interview with Steph Pajonas Joanna: S.J. Pajonas is the USA Today Best Selling author of science fiction, romance and cozy mystery, with over 30 books under two pen names. She also started the Facebook group AI Writing for Authors, and is one of the founders of the Future Fiction Academy, teaching authors how to harness the power of AI to revolutionize the world of fiction writing. So welcome, Steph. Steph: Thank you so much for having me, Joanna. I'm so excited to be here. You have no idea. Joanna: Well, it's funny because you and I have been connected for probably a decade. We've been on social media and like comments and all of this, but this is the first time you're on the show. So first up— Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and publishing. Steph: I think that my story about writing is pretty similar to most people. I started writing at a young age. I really enjoyed writing fanfiction and screenplays when I was in high school. I did some co-writing with a friend of mine, and we really enjoyed coming up and using other people's worlds to tell stories. So that was a lot of fun for me.  Then when I went to university, I went to Michigan State University, I studied a field that is not really in use anymore, telecommunications. It's been usurped by the internet and everything like that. So I studied telecommunications with a minor in film. And when I was doing film studies, I did a lot of screenplays. I really wanted to be a screenwriter. I really wanted to write screenplays.  When I got to my final year of college, and I looked at how much money I owed for my student loans, I thought, oh, no, I really probably should get a job to pay all of these loans off. Then it was my senior year, I decided to take a basic HTML coding class. Back then it was like 1996/1997, and so I was doing basic HTML in Netscape, I think it was Netscape 2.0, and building websites in class, and I thought it was pretty fun. I was like, this is fun, this could be the future. I kept thinking that the internet was going to really boom. I had been part of the generation that had AOL, you know, and I was in chat rooms when I was younger. So I decided, right then and there, that I would learn how to make websites as a career and do that in order to pay off my bills. So I graduated from college in 1998. I went to work in a small internet design firm in Detroit, or just north of Detroit at that point. Then they got bought by a bigger New York company. So I thought, hey, you know, I just broke up with a boyfriend, I could really expand my horizons by moving to New York. I have family in the New York, New Jersey area, so I would be close to family, so let's move to New York. So I transferred to New York, and then that company did well for a while. Then it was the dot-com boom, and then it was the dot-com bust. I got laid off, and I went to work at HBO at that point. So I started working for HBO on hbo.com, and it was the heyday of HBO. It was The Sopranos, Sex and the City, Six Feet Under, all the great shows back then. I was working with the team that helped build all of those websites. So I was back in the entertainment business. I was like, oh, this is great, I love working for entertainment companies. I was having so much fun, and I did that until 2007 when I had my first child. So when I had my first baby, we were living in Brooklyn, and everything was super expensive, couldn't really afford daycare, so my husband said, well, maybe you could stay home with her and our future second child, and then when they go to school, you can go back to work. And I thought, yeah, I could probably do that.  It wasn't much longer after they were born that I was realizing that the internet was just taking off, like all of my skills were becoming irrelevant fairly quickly. I could have kept up with them, but I was still thinking that my career might be somewhere in entertainment, somewhere around there. Then I saw KDP, I saw that people were self-publishing, and I thought, well, I've always wanted to write a book. I've always wanted to turn my screenplays or my ideas into books, so I'll try that.  So I wrote my first book, it took me like two years. You know, I think I went through like 12 revisions of that book, then I published in 2003. I'm actually coming up on 10 years published now. So I took the long road, through the internet and through entertainment companies, to come back to writing. I'm really happy to be here, and I've since published about 30 books between my science fiction, romances and the cozy mysteries that I published. Joanna: You said 2003 there. I think you meant 2013. Steph: 2013. Yes, you're right. Sorry. Joanna: Time flies. Steph: I'm thinking way back to my time of building internet websites! Joanna: Yeah, I know. It's crazy, isn't it, I mean, how time shifts. It's actually really interesting to hear more about your background in internet and entertainment, and we'll circle back to that in a minute. I did want to ask about how many of your books are centered around Japan. I wondered if you talk about that because you're obviously an American. And yet, if people go and have a look at some of your series, they are very Japanese. How do your travels come out in your writing? Why Japan? Steph: Yeah, so when I was late in college, I became interested in Japan. It was the time when Hayao Miyazaki's Princess Mononoke came out, I think it was right around that time that it was in the theaters. I was just amazed. I was like, this is such great storytelling, this is such beautiful anime, I really love this. So I started looking into Japan and beginning to understand a little bit more about the culture and the country. Then when I went to my first job, to the internet company just north of Detroit, I met a friend Jennifer, who had actually spent several years in Japan. She lived in Hiroshima, and she was working there a lot. So we sat down, and we just started talking a lot. She was missing Japan, so she was telling me lots of stories of her time there. And I was thinking, yeah, this is a really cool place. I'm really interested in this culture and in this country. So when I moved to New York, I thought, well, maybe I'll learn Japanese. That would be fun for me. I'll learn another language, and I will figure out if my love of this country will expand to something other than just pop culture. So I started taking Japanese language courses at the Japan Society. It's in New York City, it's on the east side over by the UN. It's a beautiful building, and they have a language program there. I started going to classes and I really just, I loved learning another language. It was so much fun. Learning another language taught me more about the English language, too. So I was able to really expand how I was learning about language and understanding language at that point. Then my love of the country grew from there. I started studying all types of parts of the culture, the history, I was watching movies, TV shows, like anything that I could get my hands on. Then we started traveling to the country as well. So I'm a longtime Japanophile. I feel like I started falling in love with it in like 1998. I've been studying the language for a long time, I am not fluent, not even close, but it is fun, and I seem to have a pretty big vocabulary. When I listened to the shows, I recognize a lot of the language and the words. So I really love it.  There came a point in my life where I felt kind of removed from it. After I had my first child, I couldn't really go to the language classes anymore. I was sort of house bound with her, doing all the mom stuff. So when I decided to pick up writing, I thought, hey, if I use my knowledge of Japan in my works, it will sort of bring me back to it. It'll make me feel closer to the country. It'll make me feel closer to the culture and the language again. It just helped me fall right back in love with it once more. So spending the time, doing the research and looking at the history, I've learned so much just writing the books because I made parallels between my books and some ancient Japanese history. It just made everything come to life for me. I really just so enjoyed it, and I still do it now. So it's been 10 years of writing, and I still include a lot of Japan in my books.

How can you shift your mindset in order to reach more readers with your books? How can you leverage the tools available for authors to sell more copies? Ricci Wolman from Written Word Media gives her tips. In the intro, The Hotsheet useful newsletter; Book publishing is broken; In the US, the Federal Trade Commission is about to launch the antitrust lawsuit against Amazon [Politico] and a thought experiment; The Authors Guild trains authors on AI tools, and so does the IPG, and so does Publishers Weekly. Google rolls AI writing into Docs and Gmail. JFPennBooks.com is live — use discount coupon LAUNCH for 15% off all books in all formats until the end of August 2023. Catacomb is available on my store and also everywhere else. Today's show is sponsored by Draft2Digital, where you can get free ebook formatting, free distribution to multiple stores, and a host of other benefits. Get your free Author Marketing Guide at draft2digital.com/penn Ricci Wolman is the founder and CEO of Written Word Media, a marketing platform that empowers authors to market and sell their books. Ricci has been in the self-publishing space for nearly a decade. She holds an MBA from Harvard, and is passionate about using her marketing powers for good. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Creating a positive attitude towards marketing Separating ourselves from our art to become business-minded What Written Word Media offers authors and readers Ad stacking — what it is and why it's so successful Price differences when marketing different genres The many aspects that make up the marketing ecosystem The future of selling direct while utilizing promo services You can find Ricci at WrittenWordMedia.com and you can use my affiliate link here if you fancy checking out the Membership while supporting the show. Transcript of Interview with Ricci Wolman Joanna: Ricci Wolman is the founder and CEO of Written Word Media, a marketing platform that empowers authors to market and sell their books. Ricci has been in the self-publishing space for nearly a decade. She holds an MBA from Harvard, and is passionate about using her marketing powers for good. So welcome back to the show, Ricci. Ricci: Thanks, Joanna. So nice to be here. Joanna: Oh, yes. So I wanted to take you back a little bit. You started out in banking and then moved into corporate marketing. Tell us a bit more about why you wanted to start your own company, and why in the author space? Because frankly, there are more profitable businesses. Why do you care about books and marketing? Ricci: Yeah, absolutely. So I would say the entrepreneurial thing came first. I always knew I wanted to start and run my own company, it was just a matter of when and how. So that had always been in the back of my mind, even as I was going through my different corporate jobs. I was lucky enough to have the opportunity to do that within the books and book marketing space, due to really just luck in a personal story, which is that my mom was self-publishing a book. This is all the way back in 2009/10 ish, when self-publishing was fairly new. And being the tech-savvy daughter in the family, I was helping her get her files uploaded and learn how the KDP platform worked.  My background was in marketing, as you alluded to, and so through the process of helping her publish her book, it became very clear to me that there was a lack of resources for authors when it came to marketing their books. That's how Freebooksy was born, which was our very first promo site. It really just started, honestly, as a Facebook group. And that has now grown to the Written Word Media platform. So it's been a wonderful journey. I myself am an avid reader. I'm a big believer in books. So it's a confluence of events and a lot of luck that brought me to an entrepreneurial trajectory within the books and self-publishing space. Joanna: And certainly, I jumped on board with Freebooksy really early on, and over the years, we've become friends. I was just listening to you there, and I've known you for so long that I'm used to your accent, but just— Tell people a bit about your background and what your accent is, in case they don't realize. Yes, absolutely. Well, right now, at this point in my life, it's very blended. But it started out as a full-blown native South African accent. That is where I was born and raised, from Johannesburg. I lived there all the way through my initial schooling. I came to the States when I was 17 for college, and this is home now. It's quite a crazy thing, and now I've spent more of my life and time in the States than I had in South Africa. Some of that time was in New York and Boston, now I actually live down south in North Carolina. So it's a blended South African/American with a little touch of southern in it, if people are trying to place it. Joanna: I love your accent! Let's take it up to the level of marketing in general, because many authors struggle. It probably is, apart from actually writing the book, which is one struggle, many writers also struggle with marketing. I feel like there still is this feeling of, “if my book is good enough, then readers will just find it, that somehow quality will out.” I feel like that's almost a defeatist attitude. How can authors reframe marketing to be more of a positive choice, something even creative and worth investing in? Ricci: Yeah, and I wish that were true, that a book that's fantastic and good enough would somehow rise to the top without any marketing. That is not true, and it's not true of really any product or service or idea, really, that's out there in the world. Even some of the most amazing ideas need some marketing behind them so that they can reach a critical mass of people to make an impact. Ricci: The first thing I would say is for authors to understand that this is true for everything across the board, to not take it personally. It's not necessarily just around books in the book industry, this is just the way that it is. It does take some effort to get a spotlight and put some attention on your work. The other thing I would say is that there's a mind shift that needs to happen. And as somebody who owns my own business, I've struggled with this as well. When I first started Freebooksy and Written Word Media, I felt a little cringy about marketing. I think that's part of it for authors as well. It's like, well, I'm not a salesperson, I'm a writer. And for me, it was like, I'm not a salesperson, I'm just trying to offer a service that helps authors. So how do you reframe that from being, hey, I'm pushing or trying to sell, to something that's more positive? And the truth is, is that — The book that you have written is going to bring a lot of joy to the readers who are the right fit for it, and I think that's where it would be helpful for authors to focus. Instead of thinking about marketing as, hey, I'm trying to sell more of my books, think about marketing as a way to reach more people and impact more lives, and that the people are out there waiting to read your book, but they don't know about it. You're actually doing a service to them by helping them discover the book that you have written. That's on the mind shift piece of it. The first element is you have to get comfortable psychologically with selling and marketing your book. Then the second piece is, okay, now that you're comfortable, what channels and tactics do you choose in order to get your message out there? Joanna: Yeah, we'll come back on that. It's interesting, you mentioned there that marketing has to be done, and it's true for any product, any service, any idea. I feel like this is something that authors struggle with, because on the one hand, we feel like we're artists and creatives, so we don't want to think that our book is the same as any other product. Like you said, it's a mind shift, which I completely get, but it's almost like— How do we separate ourselves from the art to become a business person? Ricci: Yeah, I understand that perspective, and it is challenging, but you can even look at some of the artists within other mediums. Painters have art shows, right. They get galleries to pick them up, and they have art shows, and people go to those art shows to see the work. So in every realm of creativity, there is an element of marketing. Otherwise, people would be creating wonderful works, whether that be art or fiction, and it would be sitting in a room at home or sitting in a drawer in your desk. So it does feel maybe not a natural place to go, but I think trying to zoom out and understand that it is part and parcel of being an artist is also showing your work might help authors feel differently about it. Joanna: Yes, I mean, for me, people often ask how I balance my time. What I tend to say is — In the mornings, I do creative work, and in the afternoons, I do marketing and business. I just call it business, which is everything to do with marketing, getting it out there, and accounting and all of these things, interviews like this, and other stuff like that. So I almost divide my time into two, and that helps me almost divide my head into two, around how I need to separate the artist and the business person. Ricci: Absolutely, and I think for each author, it's going to be different. It's a spectrum, right. You can spend 100% of your time writing, and if that's all you want to do, that's okay, but then you need to hire somebody to wear the business hat and do the marketing. Or you might be an author who, like yourself, Joanna, is fine with the 50/50. Or you might be somebody who the marketing comes very n

How can you write fast but also make your creative process sustainable for the long term? How can you collaborate effectively with other authors in your genre? Dan Willcocks talks about his creative and business approach. In the intro, Draft2Digital acquires SelfPubBookCovers; Different types of creative energy [Self Publishing Advice]; Twitter becomes X [The Verge]; TikTok text posts [The Verge]; What AI can help you do in 30 mins [Ethan Mollick]; Discovery Writing with ChatGPT by J. Thorn; Claude 100K model on Poe.com; Facebook AI Writing for Authors. Please join my shadow survey for my next book: www.jfpenn.com/shadowsurvey. Plus Catacomb is available now! Walker Kane didn't believe in monsters … Until they came for his daughter. Buy now on my new store, www.JFPennBooks.com – use discount coupon LAUNCH for 15% off. Today's show is sponsored by Ingram Spark, which I use to print and distribute my print-on-demand books to 40,000 retailers including independent bookstores, schools and universities, libraries, and more. It's your content—do more with it through IngramSpark.com. Daniel Willcocks is the international bestselling author of over 60 books, including horror, sci-fi, and nonfiction. He's also an award-winning podcaster, author coach and speaker, and runs the Activated Author community. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below. Show Notes Tips for being a prolific writer Reasons why authors write darker books Scheduling separate times for writing different genres Creating a successful co-writing relationship What is a series of standalone? How to manage your time when you juggle multiple projects Optimizing your strengths to best run an author business Ambition and working to reach long-term goals You can find Dan at DanielWillcocks.com, join his author community at ActivatedAuthors.com, and listen to his horror podcast at TheOtherStories.net Transcript of Interview with Daniel Willcocks Joanna: Daniel Willcocks is the international bestselling author of over 60 books, including horror, sci-fi and nonfiction. He's also an award-winning podcaster, author coach and speaker, and runs the Activated Author community. So welcome to the show, Dan. Dan: Thank you so much for having me. I am incredibly excited to be here. Before we start, I will say that this is a big moment for me because I've been listening to you since I started my author journey in 2014. So I'm glad we finally got here. Joanna: Ah, 2014. It seems so long ago now. But fantastic, so you're almost a decade and you've done a lot. It's very exciting. But first up— Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and publishing. Dan: I've always been interested in reading. Writing was never something that I kind of foresaw as a career because I never thought it was achievable to become a writer. It just wasn't a thing that was on my radar, but I've always studied English, I did some writing and things throughout university. It wasn't until the Christmas of 2013/2014 that I was gifted from a Secret Santa, a book of Stephen King short stories. And I was reading through these, and at the time I was a nonfiction proofreader and copy editor, sorting out other people's work, and I was reading these stories just going like these are—like I didn't understand the medium of short stories very well, and obviously, if you're going to start anywhere, start with Stephen King. This collection, each story was so individual, and unique, and in depth for such a short amount of time. I kind of just started putting fingers to keyboard, and around early 2014, I then discovered KDP. I had an old stage play that I'd written for university that got nominated to go to the Edinburgh Fringe. I thought, oh, let's experiment and see if I can turn this into a book. I had no expectations of what that would look like. A couple of weeks later, I ended up with this book in my lap. Then I started thinking, well, if I can do this, well, maybe I can write a short story. And I ended up writing a novella called Sins of Smoke, that I ended up publishing in October of 2015. That went to number one in the horror charts. That whole experience of just putting stuff out there, I was like, this is fun. I just want a book that's on the shelf for me. It kind of ignited a bit of a flame, and it was very quickly after that that I started collaborating with people, founded Hawk & Cleaver. It just kind of accelerated from there. Joanna: Give us a little bit of an update in terms of where you are now because it's a long way to go from a stage play that turned into a novella, and 60 books across multiple sub genres. So tell us— How did you transition into writing so many books, and podcasting, and everything you do now? Because it doesn't just go from, oh, I wrote a novella and it hit number one in the charts, and now I'm full time and everything's all good. Dan: Yeah, well, everything that ends up big starts incrementally. So after that first book was launched, I ended up reaching out to another indie author who wrote a dark sci fi book. It turned out that he was joining forces with two other authors, Ben Arrington, Luke Kondor, and they’re very chatty with a guy called Matt Butcher. They were starting with Hawk & Cleaver. We jumped on a Zoom call during Christmas 2015, and we were like, you know what —  We love writing the same similar things. Maybe we can do this together, help promote each other, and do it all under this unified brand. I suggested that we create an e-magazine, we each write a 1000-word short story once a month, create an e-magazine, and we can publish on Kindle because I knew how to do that. Then that could be a way to build up a bit of an audience while we were all writing other things.  Luke Kondor had a bit of a background in podcasting and suggested we made it a podcast. So we started writing this podcast, we got narrators in, Luke did a lot of the original editing. And that podcast became The Other Stories, which launched in 2016, and now has hit 10 million plus downloads over the past sort of seven years.  Along the way, I was working a full-time job until 2019. I developed a practice of writing every morning, of putting out content, of just making it a priority for me to do alongside the rest of my life. So every morning, I would get up and I'd write those words. And, as I said, incrementally over time, I ended up publishing one book that turned into two, I then collaborated with Michael Anderle in his Kurtherian Gambit universe and wrote five book series in that universe. I then went on to do three years of ghostwriting. In 2020, I wrote 26 books in a single year. So like, it all comes back to those humble beginnings. In the beginning, I was writing 200 words a day, ish, like every other day. Then I just got so absorbed in it and really kind of did a lot of self-development, a lot of mindset work, which came on to form the foundation of the Activated Author community that I run. Yeah, there is a lot to look back on and go, I have done a fair bit now. I podcasted for several years as well, and done well over 250 episodes across different podcasts. If you just chip away a little bit each day, in the end, it all adds up. Joanna: Yes, well, I'm very impressed. People say I do a lot, but you do even more. You also have your family, so you're a busy guy. Let's get into that word count because you said you were at 200 words a day or every couple of days. Now, I realize that some people don't write every day. I don't write every day, I tend to binge-write. So when I'm working on a project, I'll binge write. Other people obviously have family issues, health issues, mental health issues. So we're not saying you have to write every day, that's definitely not what we're saying. But, in terms of you have a book for authors coming out later this year— Dan: Yes. Joanna: Which is 50,000 Words in 30 Days. Give us some more tips for being prolific. Dan: Well, as you mentioned, it's about finding the pace of what works for you. I think there is some really good advice in your community, and there is some more toxic advice. I do think that the whole write everyday ethos, like you say, can work for some people, but I think sometimes it puts people off and makes them think they're not going to be a writer because they can't keep that pace. So a lot of what I do when I'm coaching and working with authors is really trying to — Figure out how your life looks, how you're set-up, because people have jobs with different schedules and routines — as you say, you've got family, or you might have financial limitations, health problems, like not everyone can hit that pace every day. So to be prolific for you, which is the key thing because you should never compare yourself to other people, is to understand who you are, what you do, and to find out the word counts that will fit you. So if that's 100 words a day, awesome. If that's 2000 words a day, great. If that's 5000 words on a weekend, then that sort of works for you. I think you need to be confident, own it, and be comfortable in those word counts. As I say, there is a lot of advice out there that is somewhat toxic. Like I do know authors that write 13,000 words a day. I, personally, cannot hit that consistently. I've had big word days, but every time I have a big word day, it burns me out, and then I do nothing next day. It's really connecting with who you are, giving yourself that grace to be a bit slower if that is your pace. There are people in my Activated Authors community who write 1000 words a week, and that's fine. That works for them, they publish bo

How can you use what you're scared of to write better stories that resonate with readers? How can you acknowledge your shadow side and bring aspects of it into the light in a healthy way that serves you and your customers? Michaelbrent Collings talks about his experiences — and you can do my Shadow Survey here (before 31 Aug 2023). In the intro, The Inner Work of Age by Connie Zweig; different kinds of direct sales [Wish I'd Known Then]; QuitCast on productivity and burnout with Becca Syme; 7 success factors for neurodivergent and cognitively impaired self-published authors [Self-Publishing Advice]; Outcomes of an AI Future [Moonshots and Mindsets] This podcast is sponsored by Kobo Writing Life, which helps authors self-publish and reach readers in global markets through the Kobo eco-system. You can also subscribe to the Kobo Writing Life podcast for interviews with successful indie authors.  Michaelbrent Collings is the multi-award-nominated internationally bestselling author of over 50 books across horror, thriller, fantasy, sci-fi and more, as well as a produced screenwriter and speaker. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Writing from the shadow side of the self Bringing your fears and guilts into your writing How to bring your shadows to the surface in a helpful way Differences in what we find appropriate based on culture and upbringing The underlying hope when reading and writing horror Hiding our shame in our shadows Tips for overcoming self-censorship You can find Michaelbrent at WrittenInsomnia.com and his Bestseller Life course at BestsellerLife.com Transcript of Interview with Michaelbrent Collings Joanna: Michaelbrent Collings is the multi-award-nominated internationally bestselling author of over 50 books across horror, thriller, fantasy, sci fi and more, as well as a produced screenwriter and speaker. So welcome back to the show, Michaelbrent. Michaelbrent: Hello, Joanna. It's always so fun to hang out with you. Joanna: It is. Sixth time on the show, it is a record! Michaelbrent: I'm looking forward to a coat, a Letterman's jacket of some kind. Just something, you know, with my name on it and The Creative Penn across the back, so I feel like a legit rockstar. Joanna: You really are. And over the years, we've talked about writing hooks, and book descriptions, how to reboot a flagging author career. We've also talked about writing with depression, which is a very popular episode. Also, how to write fast and how to write horror. So we've covered a lot, and today's discussion kind of covers elements of some of these things. We're just going to jump straight in because at the moment, I'm working on this book about writing from the shadow side of the self, and you came to top of mind for someone who does this. Michaelbrent: Because I'm best viewed in the shadows, so that's my life. Joanna: Not at all, but you've been so open about some of this darker stuff. So I wanted to start with— What do you think is part of the shadow side for you? Michaelbrent: Well, for me, there's a lot of stuff. And I tell people that they look at me, and every time I'm on a show—not with you, but with other people that I don't know—and I get through and they're like, “Oh, you were so nice.” Like they were expecting me to be doing voodoo during the show, or chanting in the background, or like I was going to reach through their screen and make a wallet out of their face skin or something horrific.  So much of it is just upbringing. Like my dad was an expert on Stephen King, he was literally the world expert on Stephen King for 20 years. So I tell people I grew up with screaming and typing in the next room. That's what I went to bed with, and that changes a person, you know. So part of its that, and part of it was I just had a tough time of it when I was young. Some of that was self-inflicted, I was kind of a snotty kid. I'm this little, tiny kid, and I'm a genius. Literally, my mom was taking me to college in sixth grade so I could have math class there. And I let people know it. So I'm sitting there as like the worst kind of nerd that you've ever experienced, and people reacted to that. So because of that, I didn't have a lot of friends, and it took a long time to figure out how to kind of overcome that part of myself that was so low self-esteem that I needed to tell everyone how great I was. But really, it was a function in self-inflicted wounds that caused me to kind of cave in.  We also had mental health problems in my family that made things difficult. There was a lot of stress in the air. Despite there being a lot of love, there was also a lot of challenges. So being kind of small, feeling helpless, despite the fact that I was pretty smart, and it just compressed into this one little package that was like, I'm going to write some stuff to make me feel better. And my first story, I can remember, was about killing my brother. So obviously there was some dark crap in there. Joanna: It's interesting having siblings. I'm the eldest of five siblings, and I have one brother who's quite close to me in age. I do remember almost trying to kill him many times. I would kind of flip him upside down when he was smaller than me. I don't know what it is about siblings. I mean, have you watched Succession? Michaelbrent: No, I haven't. That's on my to do list because I've heard so many good things about it, and it's got such good people in it. Joanna: It's possibly the most violent show on TV without physical violence, as in between siblings it is incredibly verbally violent. So it's interesting. I guess family is one of those things in our shadow, like the things that come up around family and, I guess, guilt around feeling that way. Do you think guilt around family sits in the shadow? Michaelbrent: I think so, for sure. I mean, again, like even in my description, I was like, “and it was self-inflicted,” because you look back on your life, and so much of life is built around regret. You know, I don't want to become my parents, and so I'm going to do everything I can to avoid that. And despite all that, I turned into my father anyways, and I feel bad about that. Or I feel good about it, and it's great because it turns out that he was wonderful. You know, as you age, your perspective changes, and then it switches immediately to like, oh, I must have been really crappy to my dad, and I want to avoid these mistakes I made with my children. So I'm going to push them a certain direction that's less about their life lived than the life I regret living. You know, we focus our regret into our family lines because they're generational hope for the future. You know, it's like I want to leave something wonderful behind, so I'm going to make sure my kids don't suck as much as I did. Of course that ends up twisting them up terribly. Joanna: You mentioned your kids, obviously, you talked about your dad and your brother. Fear of losing family is one of my tropes that comes up in my writing. It's often about sisters. I have two sisters, and doing things for family who are in jeopardy. So I mean, you have kids, and some of them I think are quite young, but yet you do have children in jeopardy in your books. So how do you bring those fears into your writing? Michaelbrent: I think the one thing that you have to be careful with, before we say anything else, is — You don't want to turn your books into therapy. The one thing that every therapist has in common in the whole world is they require payment. So if I'm going to therapy, I pay my therapist, and that's fine. But if I write a book, and I use that for therapy, and then I turn around to the therapist and say, “That'll be $4.99 or $9.99,” or whatever the price of the book is, they're going to be like, no, no, that's not how it works. I think taking the core of the things that worry you and the things that terrify you, and turning that into the basis of a book is a tremendously good idea because we tend to be worried about kind of universal things when you drill down. The danger comes when you're just using it exclusively as a self-improvement vehicle. In that case, you're going to be really self-indulgent, and long winded, and people aren't going to care. So when you get down to it, yeah, families are incredibly important because every single person has one. I mean, they either have an actual one that they live with currently that they love/hate, because there's always that stuff bound up no matter how good the family, or they have the family they wish they had. You know, the people that are orphaned or abandoned or what have you, they can't help but look around at the kind of nuclear examples around them and say, “What if I had had that? Why didn't I have that?” There's so many questions that are fundamentally human nature that are really rooted in where did I come from and where am I going. And that's, by definition, kind of a familial question. So those things matter tremendously.  My wife and I lost a child years back, and that became the root of one of my most terrifying books, which is called Apparition. And it's not terrifying because it's the greatest book of all time, but just the concept is that there's this thing out there that makes parents kill their children. It's like a demon, and it consumes the blood and the fear of the children, and then it withdraws and consumes the madness of these parents that realize what they've done. I wrote that in large measure as a way of kind of working through what I was experiencing, having just lost my own child. Joanna: Which is an awful experience, but just on

What are the pros and cons of traditional publishing vs self-publishing? How can you combine multiple options for a more creatively satisfying — and profitable — author career? Rachael Herron gives her tips. In the intro, Power Thesaurus and editing tips for audio; How Writers Fail — Kris Rusch; Finishing energy; Sidekick for Shopify; Shadow Survey (please complete before 31 Aug 2023). Today's show is sponsored by ProWritingAid, writing and editing software that goes way beyond just grammar and typo checking. With its detailed reports on how to improve your writing and integration with Scrivener, ProWritingAid will help you improve your book before you send it to an editor, agent or publisher. Check it out for free or get 25% off the premium edition at www.ProWritingAid.com/joanna Rachael Herron is the internationally bestselling author of more than two dozen books, including thrillers, romance, memoir, and nonfiction about writing. She has taught writing at both UC Berkeley and Stanford, and now teaches authors online with courses and coaching, as well as through her podcast, How Do You Write. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below. Show Notes Combining traditional and indie publishing Deciding which route to go with each project The locus of control with indie publishing Publishing a series — indie or trad? Pitching an agent as an already independently published author Differences in money between indie and trad publishing Tips for developing author friendships You can find Rachael at RachaelHerron.com where you can find her latest course and Magic Query Letter. Transcript of Interview with Rachael Herron Joanna: Rachael Herron is the internationally bestselling author of more than two dozen books, including thrillers, romance, memoir, and nonfiction about writing. She has taught writing at both UC Berkeley and Stanford, and now teaches authors online with courses and coaching, as well as through her podcast, How Do You Write. So welcome back to the show, Rachael. Rachael: What a treat to talk to you, Jo. It's just a delight, as always. Joanna: You were last on the show in 2018, talking about Fast-Draft Your Memoir. Now obviously, lots has happened since then, which is kind of crazy. So give us a bit of an update on what your author life and your business look like now. Rachael: Okay, so first of all, five years, oh my god. And second of all, when Fast-Draft Your Memoir came out, I have not listened to that episode since we recorded it, but I remember you saying, I'm going to write a memoir, and I'm not ready to do it yet, I'm not ready. Look at you now. Joanna: Yes, well, for people who don't know, my memoir, Pilgrimage, came out earlier this year in 2023. Rachael: It's lovely. Joanna: Thank you. Rachael: It's lovely. So yeah, so that had just come out the last time we chatted. Since then, I was thinking about this because five years is a long time, especially in the last five years. So since then, I have published two thrillers, one was called Stolen Things, and one was called Hush Little Baby. Both of those were from Penguin. I got the rights back to, I think I counted, I think it was a total of eight books. So seven novels and my first memoir, A Life in Stitches, I got the rights to all of those back. Those have been subsequently self-published, indie published by me. I just sold a new book, which I was talking to you about recently, so that is actually going to be my new genre of paranormal women's fiction. So that's out there. And my wife and I have moved to New Zealand, so it's been a busy five years. Joanna: It has. It has, absolutely. We're going to come back on the New Zealand thing. But I mean, obviously there you've got traditional publishing, you've got rights back, you indie publish, you do all these different things. I wanted to talk to you because you've got this new course out, How to Publish Your Book in Today's Market, which I think is super useful because it seems like there are more choices than ever, and also a lot of people like yourself, you're mixing and matching all these things. So talk a bit more about how you combine traditional and indie publishing, both practically and also the mindset. How do you know what to do with each project? Rachael: Oh, it's such a good question. So I wrote the book that just sold, it's not coming up till 2025, thank you traditional publishing, but that is the paranormal women's fiction, and I wrote it with the entire intention, 100% intention to self-publish this as the beginning of a series. I had the idea, I was in love with this idea, I was in love with the idea for a series. It was really one of the most joyful projects I've ever written. I had no intention of offering it to my agent. Then when I got done writing it, I thought, well, this is really great. I love this book, and I don't want to do a series. I was just kind of exhausted by the thought of starting a series. I have written series before, and I just get kind of burned out on them. So I offered this one to my agent, and I'm in that fortunate place of being able to do that, but it was a very frank conversation with her. I said, like, “If you can sell this for an amount of money that I'm cool with, fabulous. And if not, I'm going to happily self-publish it.” So that's the way I thought about that book, but when I start thinking about a book, overall, I like to decide in advance as much as I can. I really surprised myself with this one by giving it to my agent. I've finished this memoir about moving to New Zealand, and I am not offering that to my agent. Period. She doesn't know that yet. I know what I'm going to do with this. I have a plan in place. It's based on Patreon, I wrote these as a collection of essays on Patreon. I'm going to Kickstart it as the full book. That's all thanks to you. Thank you, ma'am, for doing that to me. I'm going to Kickstart it, and then I'm going to launch it into all of the places that I usually do. And having that solid plan in place feels  really good to me. I know that this is a book I will be able to sell. I know how to sell on my own. Then there's another memoir that has been completed and finished for about a year now, and it's a recovery memoir, and honestly I don't know as well how to sell that one. My agent has been helping me revise that one. So that one, I leave on her desk, and she's going to handle trying to get that sold. But again, if she doesn't sell it, if she can't sell it, then I will happily indie publish this because — I like being traditionally published for different reasons that I'm sure we'll go into, but I love being indie-published for so many more reasons. But I do like to have both. Joanna: Hmm, gosh, so much to unpack there. Okay, we're going to come back on the series thing, and the money thing, and the agent thing. But we have to tackle the emotional thing which you've just said, which was: ‘I like being traditionally published, I love being indie.' So can you talk about why you feel that way emotionally? Rachael: Oh, you're going right for the gut here. I think it has to do with the way I want to control things and the way I want things to go in my dream world. When I have a book that is traditionally published, I always, always, always expect it—because I think writers are just these hopeful unicorns—I expect it to rise to the top and to sell a bajillion million copies, and when it doesn't, and we're talking about a traditionally published book, there is nothing I can do. I mean, I can obviously do my own author marketing, all of the things I can do. But I can't change the cover, I can't change the categories that they have chosen for it, I can't update or change anything. It leaves me feeling kind of frantically unsettled, to the point that now I've traditionally published enough that I used to experience what a friend of mine recently called ‘a crash' after your book comes out, like two weeks later, you're like, oh, what have I done? How can I help this book sell more? I don't experience that with traditional publishing anymore because as soon as it comes out, the day it comes out, I kind of kiss it goodbye forever. I cannot affect this book anymore. That's the only healthy way I can hold onto that side of my career.  In indie publishing, that unicorn hope never dies. If it is not selling the way I want it to, there are things that I can do, that I can play around with, that I can change, that are under my control. And for some reason, the idea of not selling a lot of books because it's my fault, because indie published, is much easier for me to handle than not selling a lot of books in traditional publishing where I have no control. Does that make sense? Joanna: Oh, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Psychology talks about locus of control as being a reason. Like people are happier when they have some locus of control over whatever it is, whether it's choosing something in your job, which is basically what this is for us, it is a job, and being able to control stuff. We just feel more empowered. I love how you combine things. So I want to come back on this idea of series. So you had originally designed this paranormal women's series, which as we know, is normally the thing that we do as indies. We write series because we know that it's a longer-term game, that you're going to do promotions on the first book, and there'll be sell through and we know how that works. When you decided it wasn't the series, that's when you decided to do traditional for this book. So can you talk more about this? I mean— Is there any point in trying to pitch series

How can you exploit the unique in your stories, as well as amp up the conflict? John Gaspard gives writing and creative business tips based on movies and TV. In the intro, Meta launches Threads, the new Twitter-like app — you can follow me @jfpennauthor; Possible Podcast episode with Ethan Mollick; Moonshots and Mindsets podcast about De-extinction; Copyright and AI with Kathryn Goldman; plus, adapting Catacomb to a screenplay, and I'm speaking in Paris in Oct. Today's show is sponsored by Draft2Digital, where you can get free ebook formatting, free distribution to multiple stores, and a host of other benefits. Get your free Author Marketing Guide at draft2digital.com/penn John Gaspard is the author of mysteries and nonfiction film books, a podcast host, and film director. His latest book is The Popcorn Principles: A Novelist's Guide to Learning from Movies. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes How to “exploit the unique” to help our books stand out Ways to add more conflict, regardless of genre Creating a satisfying ending for your readers — and when cliffhangers are a good option Contracts and the importance of reading the fine print Thoughts on the best way to get your book onto the screen You can find John and his books at AlbertsBridgeBooks.com and listen to his podcast Behind the Page: The Eli Marks Podcast Transcript of Interview with John Gaspard Joanna: John Gaspard is the author of mysteries and nonfiction film books, a podcast host, and film director. His latest book is The Popcorn Principles: A Novelist's Guide to Learning from Movies. So welcome to the show, John. John: It is so great to be here. I'm such a fan. I'm going to try not to fanboy out on you. Joanna: Oh, thank you so much. John: The podcast has been so helpful for me as I've gone along this journey. You do a great job. Joanna: I appreciate it. So first up— Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and filmmaking. John: Sure, I was given what was called a regular eight camera, which was a windup camera, when I was a teenager. I started making movies, and those grew into feature-length movies. Even as a teenager, I was making things were 90 minutes long, with dialogue and sound and all that. And I quickly learned that if you're going to make movies, you have to write movies. You have to know what it is you're going to shoot.  So I started learning how to screen write, I was very lucky right out of high school to be able to take some screenwriting courses from a guy named Frantisek Daniel, who was one of the founders of the American Film Institute and a really good screenwriting teacher. I just started making low-budget or no-budget feature films where I would write, I would shoot, I would edit, I'd direct. As it turns out, if you're going to be a novelist, that's a really good way to learn how to write a scene and how to structure something, how to put pace into what you're doing, and only write the things you need. Because when you're writing a screenplay, if you write a scene you don't need, that means getting up at 5 am and casting it and shooting it. It's a real pain when you get into editing and find out you didn't need it. It's a little bit easier as a novelist because you can just hit delete and you're done. So I did low-budget movies in my spare time and worked for about 30 years in the corporate world producing videos and meetings and events. I did some writing for a TV series called Lucky Luke, which was very big in Europe. I took all that I had learned about making low budget movies and then interviewed about 60 filmmakers and put out two filmmaking books. Over the years, I've actually spoken to probably 100 or so filmmakers. Then I segued into writing novels because it was a little bit easier. Making low budget movies, there's a lot of lifting involved, and a lot of early mornings and late nights. So I'd always planned when I got close to and into my retirement years that novels might be the way to go. As I was learning how to do that— I realized there are just a lot of crossovers between creating a low-budget movie and self-publishing. More so today than ever before, the path we go down to do each of them are quite similar. I found that there were a number of things that I was doing as a novelist that were based on things I'd either learned from making a movie or I'd learned from interviewing filmmakers about their movies. One of the things that I'd learned in my corporate life, listening to business speakers, there was a guy named Joe Callaway. And Joe Callaway would talk to different companies about how to improve what they were doing. He would use examples from other industries, and he would always end it by saying, “What's your version of that?” And that's what I'd been doing with the things I'd learned in filmmaking. I'd look at an idea and I'd go, okay, what's my version of that in the world of novel writing?  Because of that unique crossover that I have between those two worlds, I've been asked to talk about it a lot, and I put together a lot of notes on it. That became the book, The Popcorn Principles, which is 25 ideas that filmmakers use that you can adapt and adopt for your own novel writing to make them better. You're not going to learn how to write a novel from the book, but you are going to get some ideas, I think, on how to make your novel better. Joanna: I like the way you've set it out. They're quite short chapters, but they cover a whole load of important stuff. So we're going to pick a few of the craft things, and we're going to come back to the business side. But from the book, you say, “Exploit the unique.” So what do you mean by that?  “Exploit the unique.” How can we find those unique aspects that can help our book stand out? John: I always think that people downplay what's going on in our lives when it comes to writing, that everybody has something that is unique about them that they should add to the book because it's unique to them. I have a songwriter friend who wrote a song years ago about a breakup, and it became one of her most popular songs. I asked her why, and she said, “I don't know. These aren't song lyrics, they are a police report.” By which she meant it was something very personal and very specific. And because it was personal and specific, it became universal, and people loved the song. So you have to ask, what's my version of that? What do I have that is personal and unique that will make my story universal? In the book I quoted Jasper Fforde, who's one of my favorite writers. He writes the Thursday Next books and other great comic fantasy books. And he said, and I'm going to quote him here, “Readers are interested in the way a writer sees things; the unique world-view that makes you the person you are, and makes your novel interesting. Ever met an odd person? Sure. Ever had a weird job? Of course. Ever been to a strange place? Definitely. Ever been frightened, sad, happy, or frustrated? You betcha. These are your nuts and bolts, the constructor set of your novel.”  I looked at movies that had done that same thing, that had made it very personal and had kind of, by doing that, created something that everybody was interested in. There's those obvious examples, Clerks, the Kevin Smith film from the late 90s, where Kevin worked in a convenience store and dealt with odd customers all day, and he wrote a movie about working in a convenience store and dealing with our customers. It was hit because it was very personal to him, but everybody could identify with it. There's another filmmaker named Tom DiCillo, who wrote and directed a movie called Living in Oblivion. And that was the trials and tribulations of a film director in a low budget movie. It was basically what had happened to him on his last movie. So he had very specific things in it, but because they were specific and real, they were universal and people glommed onto them. Then there's the idea of just stuff in your everyday life that you should be taking notes on. From the movie world, my favorite example is George Lucas. When he was editing a movie before Star Wars, I don't think it was American Graffiti, I think it was THX 1138. He was working with the editor and the editor said to the assistant editor, I need reel two, dialogue two, meaning he wanted the reel of edited dialogue from the second reel, so the second reel, the second dialogue track. But that's not what he said, he said, I need R2, D2. And George Lucas went, oh, that's interesting. So he just pulled something out of his life. Another fun movie example is, I had a chance to talk to Dale Launer. Dale was the screenwriter for My Cousin Vinny. And in My Cousin Vinny, Joe Pesci and Marissa Tomei have a really interesting relationship, in that throughout the movie, I don't want to say they argue, but they debate on any point that one of them raises. Did you turn off the faucet? Yes, I did. How do you know? And they drill down to it. And that becomes an important feature at the end when she's giving her testimony. And I asked Dale Launer, how'd you come up with that relationship? And he said, “I didn't, it's just two friends of mine and that's the way they are. And I love that, and I took it, and I put it in the story.” And we all have that, we're just not maybe willing or looking to take that out of our own lives and drop it in. Joanna: I mean, sometimes I guess people worry about putting people they know into their writing, so kind of avoid that. The other thing that springs to mind is that many of us have a lot of books. So I'm currently writing a book, which is like novel numbe

Four years ago, in July 2019, I put out a podcast episode that went through the 9 disruptions I saw coming for authors and publishing in the next decade. It turns out that most are happening faster than even I expected. In this episode, Nick Thacker and I discuss some of the main points. In the intro, I go through other aspects of the nine ways (notes and links below), the USA Today Bestseller list is back; TikTok moves into eCommerce [The Verge]; and Orna Ross and I discuss generative AI for authors on the Self Publishing Advice Podcast. This podcast is sponsored by Written Word Media, which makes book marketing a breeze by offering quick, easy and effective ways for authors to promote their books. You can also subscribe to the Written Word Media email newsletter for book marketing tips. Nick Thacker is the USA Today bestselling author of over 40 books, including thrillers, action-adventure, and nonfiction. He also helps indie authors through his courses, coaching, and also by working with Draft2Digital. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below. Show Notes Enthusiasm for AI tools as part of the creative process Collaborating with AI as an author Using AI for tasks outside of your “zone of genius” How Draft2Digital may handle the explosion of content The future of generative search for book discoverability Creating audiobooks with voice clones Copyright issues around AI-generated content How to stay positive and what to focus on You can find Nick at NickThacker.com Overview of the 9 disruptions Here’s the overview. These are in no particular order. Click here to read or listen to the original episode. You can also find more podcast episodes, articles etc here on my Future page. Non-fiction books, blog posts, and news articles will be written by AI [discussed with Nick below] Copyright law will be challenged as books are used to train AIs which then produce work in the voice of established authors [discussed with Nick below] Voice synth technology will replace human narrators for mass-market audiobook narration [discussed with Nick below] Voice search will disrupt text-based SEO and if you don’t have voice content, you will be invisible. [In the intro, I mention that I think generative search will likely be more disruptive.] Translation will be performed by AI — for books as well as other content. [In the intro, I mention my own process with Deepl.com, as well as Google's Translation Hub, and Meta's new translation model.] Content will explode exponentially, and AI discoverability and marketing tools will help navigate the tsunami [discussed with Nick below] AI-augmented creativity will develop and more people will want to be writers. I mentioned ‘centaur publishing,' and suggest you check out AI Writing for Authors to find thousands of authors already experimenting with new ways of co-creating with AI. Print publishing will shift into a green, sustainable model with AI-assisted micro-print-on-demand. London Book Fair 2023 focused on sustainability, and even talked about carbon emission labeling for books; plus The Society of Authors Tree to Me Expansion of mobile reading + micropayments enabled by 5G mobile and blockchain technology + four billion new people online = explosion of reading. Subscriptions have certainly cannibalized sales of ebooks and audiobooks, leading to the rise and rise of selling direct. On blockchain, while the crypto crash of 2022 has stopped the speculation, the work of building blockchain solutions continues. The EU IP Office launched a blockchain for registration, and the WIPO is looking at it. As discussed with Roanie Levy on blockchain for copyright registration. Transcript of Interview with Nick Thacker Joanna: Nick Thacker is the USA Today bestselling author of over 40 books, including thrillers, action-adventure, and nonfiction. He also helps indie authors through his courses, coaching, and also by working with Draft2Digital. So welcome back to the show, Nick. Nick: Thank you for having me again. It's a pleasure. Joanna: Yes, indeed. Now you were on the show three years ago talking about writing action-adventure. But tell us a bit more about what you're up to now and— Give us an update on your author business because you do lots of things. Nick: Thank you. I do. Yeah, I still write action-adventure. I'm still definitely pushing books out as fast as humanly possible. You’ve got to feed the beast. But over the years, including three years ago, and before, when I first got started writing, I think you know this, I was a marketing guy. I came out of a marketing background. So I never had a very organized or formal way of putting my nonfiction, let's call it knowledge, together until about maybe six months ago. So I've started putting all that together on a website called Book Career in a Year, which is just me teaching, coaching, training, whatever. So I have courses and books and things like that, that are all nonfiction related. Teaching authors how to be authors, teaching authors how to write, publish, marketing, market their books, that sort of thing. So Book Career in a Year is where all that lives. As you said, I do still work for Draft2Digital. I believe I had just started then, maybe three years ago, when last we talked. I'm loving it. It's a great company full of great people. I knew this before I joined, but working there for the past, I guess it's four years now, has really showed me that they really are authors first, authors forward. If authors don't win, we don't win. So I love that mentality that they have there. Hopefully, I'll be there for a long time because of that. Joanna: That's great. I think, inevitably, those of us who write fiction will start writing nonfiction and try and help other people at some point. It just seems to happen that way. Let's get into the AI disruption topic of today. It's funny, you said there you put out books as fast as humanly possible, but we are talking today about collaborating with AI. First up, at the beginning of the article that I would have talked about in the introduction, I said: “Humans are innately creative, and in this new AI-powered world, we can create even more than we ever dreamed possible.” And I want to talk to you because you're also enthusiastic. So why are you so enthusiastic about AI for authors and the creative process? Nick: I think there's two main answers for why I'm so enthusiastic. One, I believe I'm an optimist. I really do think, generally, the best for humanity. I think we strive, and obviously we make mistakes and we falter, but I think we're on a trajectory taking us to better places. Two, I figure if we're going to have robot overlords take us over like Skynet, we might as well just embrace it now and be good to them and nice to them and hope that we get killed last. That's a little bit tongue-in-cheek of an answer, but truthfully, I think it's the first one. I think the optimism I have carries over into this realm of AI as well because I feel like we haven't even scratched the surface of what's possible. That excites me. Joanna: Yeah. And just to give people listening some other things there. So Marc Andreessen just recently posted an article, really long article, Why AI Will Save the World. So I'll link that in the show notes. Also, Mo Gawdat's book, Scary Smart, which really talks about we're raising the AIs on our writing. Although you and I blow things up, kill people, [in our books!] but you know, we are trying to be nice to the AIs. Nick: Right, Right. Exactly. I think it goes back into that. I think part of the way to be optimistic about this is to realize that we're not really seeing what Ray Kurzweil calls artificial general intelligence (AGI). I mean, we're not there yet. And while I believe this could be a route toward that, I'm not worried about that. We don't have to get into the details of why or why not.  What we're seeing, of course, and this is probably what we'll talk about today, is these are large language models, these are generative AIs. They're not really artificial intelligences. They're just trained on a corpus, on a body of work, and they spit out the next most likely outcome when we give it a prompt. So I'm not terribly worried that it's going to turn into this sentient being that all of a sudden starts bossing us around, yet. Joanna: I agree. And there are lots of them, I think this is another thing. Today I've been playing with ChatGPT-4 and also with Claude from Anthropic, and these are two models built differently that behave differently with the same prompts. So this is what's so interesting. But let's just put a couple of my predictions together. Number seven on my list was: AI-augmented creativity will develop. And number one: nonfiction books, blog posts and news articles will be written —I said, by AI—but I would now change that to say with AI. So clearly this is happening, but— What are your thoughts on AI-assisted creativity? And how are you using the tools? Nick: I fully agree with your predictions. I think we are there in some small way, specifically with the nonfiction. I don't know why, but it seems like it's easier to use AI for nonfiction, or at least it seems more believable when we use it for nonfiction. When I say nonfiction, I don't really mean the narrative nonfiction. You know, this isn't going to write a Malcolm Gladwell diatribe, right? It's going to write, like you said, blog posts, news articles. These things that are factual based, we can feed it a few facts, and it can spit out a news article. And this I think becomes eventually the new kind of BuzzFeed, where it's—sorry, Buzzfeed

How can fiction authors use Sudowrite to assist with writing tasks they need help with? What functionality does Sudowrite have that will be useful to different types of writers? Amit Gupta gives his tips in this interview. I use and recommend Sudowrite as part of my creative process. You can try Sudowrite through my affiliate link: www.TheCreativePenn.com/sudowrite Amit Gupta is a science fiction writer, entrepreneur, and founder of Sudowrite, an AI-powered creative writing tool. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below. Show Notes What is Sudowrite and how can it help authors Using Story Engine to write faster How to train AI tools to write in your voice and style Dealing with criticism of using AI as a writer Possible legal issues when using AI tools as a collaborative approach Should authors discuss their AI usage? The changing view of AI tools as they become mainstream You can find Amit and more about Sudowrite at Sudowrite.com Transcript of Interview with Amit Gupta Joanna: Amit Gupta is a science fiction writer, entrepreneur, and founder of Sudowrite, an AI-powered creative writing tool. So welcome back to the show, Amit. Amit: Thanks, Joanna. Happy to be here. Joanna: So you were last on the show two years ago in June 2021, when we talked more about your origin story. So we're just going to get straight into the topic today. So if people don't know— What is Sudowrite? And how can it help authors? Amit: Sure. Sudowrite is an AI writing partner for authors. It's the first AI tool built specifically for writing fiction. My co-founder, James and I, we're both writers ourselves, we began experimenting with writing with AI back in 2020. Initially, we built it to help us with some of the problems that we encountered ourselves, like getting unblocked or, for me, suggesting rich, evocative description, or automatically rewriting passages to improve pacing or conflict or tension, that kind of thing. Over time, it's grown a lot as people have suggested new ideas. We have thousands of authors who are always kind of suggesting what we should be doing with it. So now, it also helps with a bunch of other things, like creating or fixing outlines, or writing dialogue, or even taking writers step by step from idea all the way to first draft with AI assistants. So the way we think about it, musicians, photographers, filmmakers, other artists all have had powerful tools like Photoshop, or Final Cut Pro, and so on, to execute on their creative vision for decades now. And our ultimate goal here with Sudowrite, is to create something just as powerful as those tools, but for authors. Joanna: It's so crazy, because two years ago when we last spoke, ChatGPT had not launched. So AI for writing wasn't so well known, although I've been covering on the show for many years.  How have things changed in the last six months or so, since AI for writing has pretty much gone mainstream? Amit: Well, as you know, two years in the AI world is like 20 years in the real world. There hasn't been a moment in the last couple of years of AI development that hasn't been exciting. The release of ChatGPT was definitely a big one because it opened up so many people's eyes to what a powerful tool AI could be. It also had a big effect on our business. Initially, I think we had some fear, because ChatGPT was out there. It's pretty good. It's not as good as Sudowrite, but maybe it'll be good enough for people who don't know the difference. So we were really kind of interested to see what was going to happen. What we found was that as authors tried ChatGPT, some of the people who are initially skeptical began to see how it could help with their workflows, too. Many of those people went on looking for something purpose-built for fiction. So that's when they would invariably find their way to us. It literally doubled our growth rate overnight. Now there are five times as many authors using Sudowrite, today, as were six months ago.  The other thing that's changed with the release of ChatGPT, and so much of what's been going on in the last six months, is the level of energy and attention around AI and writing. And you alluded to this, it's really gone mainstream. There are a lot of fears when ChatGPT came out, whether it would take people's jobs, would it replace people, would students use it instead of thinking for themselves? And those fears are still out there, of course, but I think we've come to see that some of them at least were a bit hyperbolic of the doom and gloom variety.  AI is absolutely changing the world, but we're also adapting to it. In the best cases, I think we're taking advantage of it to do more. So Sudowrite, in particular, and I think ChatGPT too, are both are being incorporated into writing curriculums at the high school and college level now, which I think is really exciting. And large language models, like those that power Sudowrite and ChatGPT, are being woven into so many of the apps and services we use every day to help them work better. So I think it's, I mean, obviously only the beginning, but I'm incredibly excited for all the change that's yet to come in this year and next. Joanna: And obviously I'm with you. And it's encouraging that I mean, again, with teachers, there was this initial, ‘oh no, all the students are going to cheat.' And then it was, ‘oh, okay, then we'll just teach in a different way.' Also, students have to learn these things because of their future. I mean, it might not be the things we're using, but there will certainly be something. I love that you've used the word ‘partner.' I guess the word ‘copilot' has been used in many cases. But one of the big fears is, as you mentioned, ‘AI will take my job.' It's so funny when you think about it from our perspective, because we know about this. But it's like, my job and my life, it's not one thing. Maybe you can explain how we should be breaking down what we do into smaller tasks. And then thinking, as you said, about the workflow— What kind of tasks can Sudowrite help with? Amit: Sure. So I think every writer has got something about writing that they struggle with. It could be writing description, like me. Or one of the things I also struggle with is getting an idea for a world and then figuring out what's the conflict in that world, and what's the way it's going to emerge once the story begins, like what happens. And once I know where the story's going, I'm great to write it, I actually enjoy that. So every writer's got their pieces of this puzzle that don't quite work as well as they want them to. Well, I should say, not every writer, I know there are some who don't, and for whom it just flows out like music without stop or interruption. And I know this because my partner is one of these people, and I envy her so much. But everyone else, all us mortals, have something that we get stuck with or something that we have trouble with.  I think the trick here is figuring out which are the parts of writing that are uniquely us or uniquely our own. Where are the parts that we bring our voice to the story? Where are the parts that are draining for us, and that are really holding us back that stop us from finishing? And how can we get AI to help us with those parts? So that's kind of where we've been focused with Sudowrite. Initially, it was really about getting unblocked and having a collaborative partner that could bat ideas back and forth. As we've developed, we've added all these other parts of the picture because different writers have different struggles. So writers can pick and choose which are the features that are going to help them, and which are the parts that they just want to do on their own. Joanna: And again, it's so funny, because I feel like some people say, ‘oh, the writing is all just crap because you just click a button and output a book, and it's terrible.' And it's like, seriously, why don't you have a go with this stuff? I mean, I feel like having been playing with all kinds of tools now, I don't think I'm any faster in my process. I mean, I may get faster at some point, but I find myself going deeper. So for example, on Sudowrite, using the describe function, the metaphorical stuff that it comes out with, I often will kind of be like, ‘oh, that's amazing.' It doesn't suit this particular piece of writing, but I'm going to write it down because I want to think about that more. I find the ideas that it comes up with generate more ideas. It's almost like a creativity booster. Amit: Yeah, totally. And like you said, I think some authors find that it helps them go deeper and build a richer, more grabbing a story. And other authors are really focused on volume, they really need to get the next book out. So they're using in very different ways, I imagine, than you're using it. Joanna: Well, another difference is I'm a discovery writer. I write out of order, I kind of write this scene and this, and then I use Scrivener, and I put things in different orders, and then I try to figure out what goes in the middle. One of the interesting tools that Sudowrite has just put out is Story Engine. So tell us a bit more about that function—I'm finding it fascinating—and how it can help authors. Amit: Sure, yeah. So we're always talking to authors using Sudowrite. We do these weekly conversations over Zoom, we teach free AI writing classes every week. One of the things that we hear from them over and over, especially from our most successful and prolific authors, was that they'd finish a book, they'd put it up for sale, and then the very next day, their readers would start asking them for the sequel.

How can you stand out in a crowded market of non-fiction books? How can you build a business around your central topic? How can you deal with failure to move on to success? Stephanie Chandler shares her experience and tips. In the intro, HarperCollins and KKR make bids for Simon & Schuster [The Hotsheet]; more details from the Indie Author Earnings report [ALLi]; Thoughts from SPS Live; Photo of my boxed set (in a box); Amazon launch their Generative AI Innovation Centre. My books related to this interview: Career Change, How to Write Non-Fiction, Your Author Business Plan, Public Speaking for Authors, Creatives, and Other Introverts. Today's show is sponsored by Ingram Spark, which I use to print and distribute my print-on-demand books to 40,000 retailers including independent bookstores, schools and universities, libraries, and more. It's your content—do more with it through IngramSpark.com. Stephanie Chandler is the author of multiple nonfiction books, a professional speaker, and CEO of the Nonfiction Authors Association and Writers Conference. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below. Show Notes Changes in publishing and marketing for nonfiction authors over time and what still works How to stand out and build your community Content marketing and long-term marketing strategies Deciding what nonfiction book to write—should you stay in your lane? Letting go, quitting, and moving on Dealing with failure and using it to find the right direction for your writing — and your life How nonfiction authors can leverage their book to generate multiple streams of income The Nonfiction Authors Association and how it is useful to authors You can find Stephanie at NonfictionAuthorsAssociation.com Transcript of Interview with Stephanie Chandler Joanna: Stephanie Chandler is the author of multiple nonfiction books, a professional speaker, and CEO of the Nonfiction Authors Association and Writers Conference. So welcome back to the show, Stephanie. Stephanie: Joanna, it's so fun to chat with you. Thanks for having me. Joanna: Just an introduction to the audience, back in 2007 I read your book, From Entrepreneur to Infopreneur, which helped me decide to start my own author business. You've been teaching nonfiction authors about marketing since then, but it has been a decade since we talked last in 2013 about book marketing. So for those who don't know you— Tell us a bit more about you and your background in books and marketing. Stephanie: Yes, thank you for referencing. I love that we have that connection through that book. I am a Silicon Valley refugee, I left in 2003 and I opened a brick-and-mortar bookstore here in Sacramento, California, and thought I was going to write novels in the back office. It turned out I was a terrible fiction writer, I just did not have the imagination. It was devastating because when you spend your whole life wanting to write, it was just really disappointing. I didn't know what to do next, but I kind of took a U-turn and discovered how much I loved nonfiction and the fact that it blends that ability to teach, which I've always wanted to do. And I hated running the bookstore, by the way. It's not nearly as romantic as it sounds. So I wrote my first book, it was a business startup guide. I had an agent call and tell me, I like what you're doing but nobody knows who you are, you need to build an audience. And I started a website called Business Info Guide, and this is back before blogging was a thing. So I was creating new articles, which is very tedious back then, and every time I created new articles, I was attracting more website traffic and I was building this email list. So a year after the self-published business startup guide came out, I had the idea for From Entrepreneur to Infopreneur. I sent proposals to three publishers, and Wiley gave me a book deal. So I was beyond thrilled. I was walking the talk, I was selling digital products off the website, and building an email list, and creating workbooks and eBooks. I mean, before eBooks were a thing, right? Ebooks back then were PDFs.  It just kind of evolved from there. I ended up signing with an agent, I sold a couple more books, and then — I got really turned off by traditional publishing and the lack of control. I had titles change, I had book covers I didn't like. One publisher called and said, we want you to remove a chapter, we don't care which one, we're trying to cut costs. And I thought, oh my gosh, I'm never letting that happen again. Meanwhile, I'm speaking at writers' conferences, and I am wondering why isn't anybody talking to those of us who write nonfiction. I was at a conference with 350 people, and from what I could tell I was the only business book writer there. So in 2008, I started my own publishing business. I took back control of my publishing rights, and started working with nonfiction authors exclusively. Then in 2010, I launched the Nonfiction Writers Conference. It was a three-day event, entirely online. And back then we were doing this by teleseminar. Remember that, Joanna? Joanna: Yeah, yeah. Stephanie: Right. And three days on teleseminar, which was unheard of, and I didn't know if people would come, but they did. And each year after, we'd run the event, and people would say, well, how do we keep in touch when this is over? I'm so grateful for that because it led to the launch of the Nonfiction Authors Association in 2013, and I built a community. We launched in May of 2013, and in October my husband died unexpectedly. And it was just absolutely devastating. I kind of checked out for a year, and I had one assistant helping me run things. And despite being almost completely disengaged for a year, the community grew. I thought, you know what, we're onto something. There is a need for this community. So when I returned a year later, I really got involved in the community, and we've just continued to grow from there. The conference has grown from there. And it's been a wonderful ride ever since. This was the 10 year anniversary of the Nonfiction Authors Association this year, and it was our 13th Nonfiction Writers Conference. So it's been an amazing ride. Joanna: I'm so sorry about your husband, by the way. Stephanie: Thank you. Joanna: I mean, it's just awful. But coming back to business things, it's amazing how you—well, and this is what's so great, like I said, you and I've been connected for all this time, and you've just taken one step at a time into new opportunities. I've done the same. We've both ended up with quite different businesses, but it has been successful for both of us. But there's been a lot of change. So I guess you mentioned a bit about trad pub and going indie, but— What have been the biggest changes you've seen for nonfiction authors in terms of publishing and book marketing since you started out? Stephanie: Oh, my gosh, so much has changed. I mean, I think back to remember when we thought eBooks were going to overtake print books, and there was all this frenzy around that. And now we've got AI coming out. Just this morning, there was this news story about Paul McCartney and The Beatles may be able to release new music using John Lennon's voice because of AI. So that's been really exciting. We didn't have social media, or podcasts, or any of these things, Joanna, back when you and I were starting. Then there's tremendous competition. There are more books released every year now than ever before. I mean, some people are saying there are a million titles being released a year. And Amazon has, quite frankly, made brick-and-mortar less relevant, like it or not. So I honestly think — Book marketing is easier because we have more tools. If you have a really focused plan, if you carve out a niche for yourself and focus on building community, there's actually a lot of advantages to the change that's happened. Joanna: That's my attitude, too. You have to make the most of whatever situation, but yeah, we had nothing. It's so funny, people are like, oh it was so easy for you back then when you published in 2007. I'm like, hell no, it wasn't. That's so crazy. But just a couple of things to come back on. So first of all, traditional publishing. You advise a lot of nonfiction authors. For authors who want to go the traditional publishing route, when is it a good idea for them? And what should they weigh up, whether to go traditional or to go indie? Stephanie: Yeah, so my feeling on traditional publishing, I've been fairly soured over that experience, just because my personal experience wasn't great. I also understand that it is a goal for a lot of people. It was certainly a goal for me to be traditionally published. I found that to be very rewarding, but today it's different. So my advice is, if you have a book that has broad appeal and belongs on brick and mortar bookstore shelves, and it's a real goal for you, then it may be worth considering. It is harder than ever to get a book deal. You really have to come to the table with a platform, especially in nonfiction. So if it's your goal, I think that it's worth making the effort. Go through the exercise of writing a book proposal, whether you plan to traditionally publish or not, it's such a great exercise to help you get focused on your book, and then give it a timeframe. So give yourself six months, and if nothing happens, if you're not able to get an agent or deal by then, then maybe you return to self-publishing. Honestly, Joanna — I think self-publishing makes a lot more sense for 90% of the nonfiction authors that I speak to. It's faster to market. You're going to do

How can Bookfunnel help authors reach more readers, sell more books, and sell direct? Damon Courtney outlines features of Bookfunnel that you might not know about. In the intro, Hello Books and Written Word Media have joined forces for promo stacking; Call to Action (CTA) tips [ALLi]; my free Author Blueprint; Bundle for writers [Storybundle]. Plus, Paul McCartney is using AI to create a new and final Beatles song [The Guardian]; Boosting creativity, AI, and book cover design [Damonza]; Storytel has invested in ElevenLabs and the possibility of voice switching [Publishing Perspectives]; The Ethical Writers Guide to Harnessing the Power of AI: Using AI with Integrity – HJ Philips; my live AI webinars. Today's show is sponsored by ProWritingAid, writing and editing software that goes way beyond just grammar and typo checking. With its detailed reports on how to improve your writing and integration with Scrivener amongst other software, ProWritingAid will help you improve your book before you send it to an editor, agent or publisher. Check it out for free or get 25% off the premium edition at www.ProWritingAid.com/joanna Damon Courtney is a fantasy author, entrepreneur, and founder of BookFunnel.com, which I consider one of my must-use tools as part of my author business. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below. Show notes Damon's journey to creating BookFunnel The struggles of sharing Reader Magnets and ‘side-loading' before BookFunnel How to use BookFunnel for list building More BookFunnel features — Gift a Book, ARC delivery and Print Codes Author Swaps vs Group Promotions Tips for using BookFunnel for direct sales The benefits of going wide with audiobooks You can find Damon at BookFunnel.com Transcript of Interview with Damon Courtney Joanna:: Damon Courtney is a fantasy author, entrepreneur, and founder of BookFunnel.com, which I consider one of my must-use tools as part of my author business. So welcome back to the show, Damon. Damon: It's so good to be back. I can't believe it's been as long as it has. When was last time we did this thing? Joanna: It's like almost a decade or something ridiculous. Damon: It is a decade in indie publishing, right? It's probably two decades in indie publishing since we last talked like this. Of course, we see each other frequently. We just saw each other back in February in Colorado, but me being on the show and chatting like this in an official capacity. Joanna: Yes. And I mean, like you said, you are at a lot of author conferences. I wanted to make sure people know a bit about your origin story as well, because unlike a lot of the service companies that work for and with authors, you're an author yourself. That's how I originally met you all those years ago. Tell people a bit more about you and your background in writing and tech, and why you're also a book geek as well as a tech geek. Damon: Well, we'll go all the way back to the tech thing first because that really came first, which was I actually started programming and writing computer code when I was seven years old. My dad brought home this really old ancient computer, especially ancient by today's standards. It was called a TRS-80, but we call them a Trash-80 in the tech world. It plugged into your television, and it had no hard drive and had no disk drive, it had no nothing. You just wrote code into it. It came with this giant floppy book that you could learn to code with in a language called BASIC. Everybody else kind of toyed with it, even my dad, and then just kind of left it sitting there on the living room floor. I was the only one that was like, what is this thing? So I've been doing tech for my really my entire life. I became a reader, probably around the age of 12. I had a fantastic librarian when I was in sixth grade, who introduced me to The Hobbit, and The Black Cauldron, and all these amazing fantasy books, which were always my thing. While the other boys my age were playing Cowboys and Indians, I was playing Knights and Dragons. But I didn't have any books to read, I couldn't find them. I remember going to the card catalog—that was a thing, for you younger kids—there was a card catalog in the library. I remember literally going to the card catalog and opening up ‘D' and looking for the word dragon and then going to ‘W' and looking up wizard, because that was all I knew how to do to find the things that I wanted to read. So the tech thing really came first, and then the reading, and then becoming a lifelong reader. I mean, just absolutely. I still read every single night. That's my wind down when I get into bed. I put the kids to bed, I get in bed, and I sit and I read every single night. Now eBooks, I don't read paper anymore, everything I do is on eBooks. But that started all of that. The writing thing really came about because of indie publishing. So I'm going to admit some of my geekery, I play Dungeons and Dragons, and I have my entire life. I have been what we call the Forever Dungeon Master. So I've been the dungeon master of my group, the same group, for about 30-plus years now. I mean, being a dungeon master is just writing stories, right? You're writing stories that you play around a table with a bunch of other people, but that's really what it is. You're writing stories, you're making up stories, for other people to experience. So there was always this sort of secret dream that maybe one day I could be a writer. I remember looking it up and trying to read about it and learning about the process by which a book was published. You basically query it and you send it out into the world and they reject you a billion times. Then maybe if you're lucky, and you spend 10 years toiling away at it, you might get someone to finally anoint you and approve that your book was good enough.  I thought, well, I have absolutely no interest in doing that. Part of my tech background is that the beauty of being a computer programmer is if you want to make something, it doesn't require any other person in the world. It's you and a computer, and you can just sit down and start hacking out code, and you can make these amazing things. That's where BookFunnel started, and we'll get to that in a second. But that's been my whole life. If I wanted to do something in code, I could just sit down and start making it. So when indie publishing really blew up, which was around 2010, that's when I got my first Kindle, I lucked out. I was looking for a book to read, I found a fantasy book that was on Amazon for $2.99, and I'd never seen a book that cheap, right? None of us had. Books were $20-$25 if you wanted to buy a book, maybe $8 If you wanted a mass-market paperback. I was like, three bucks, sweet. So I picked that up and I read it, and I say I lucked out because it turned out to be, now, one of my favorite authors who I'm a super fan of. It was just a fantastic book, and I got to the end of it and the author's note, and started reading the author's note and went, wait, what? You can just publish your own books with this? That's not a thing. Then you start Googling it and looking it up, and holy crap, it really is a thing. You can just like put books up on Amazon and publish them. That started the wheels turning. Like, well, I mean, you've always wanted to write a book, why not you? You can write a book. Why don't you give it a shot? So that was like the long journey. You know, starting off in tech, being a programmer, being a lifelong lover of books and fantasy and reading, and then eventually leading to ultimately writing and publishing my own fantasy books. Joanna: Wait, you have to tell us who that author was. Damon: His name is David Dalglish. He actually went from indie, and he's now traditionally published almost exclusively. Although, I think he has put out a few indie books. So that's a little disappointing, not because I'm disappointed that he went traditional, but him going traditional means I only get one book a year from him, when he used to publish like four to six books a year. So that is where my disappointment lies. That said, I actually just finished his most recent book. So I'm a David Dalglish super fan, right? I will read every book that he publishes now because he's one of my favorite authors. I discovered him through indie publishing in the indie world. I just finished his most recent book, and it's just as fantastic as it always is. He's a fantastic writer. And that's always my journey, anytime I finish a book or a series. I actually just finished a 16-book fantasy series, and I read the entire thing. I'm one of those, if I start, I have to go all the way to the end. I mean, unless I'm not enjoying it, then I'll stop. I'm no longer a book martyr. I used to be a book martyr, and I'm like, well, I started this book, I don't like it, but I feel like I should finish it just to show respect to the author. Now, I'm like, man, I don't have time for that. So I just finished a 16 book fantasy series, and as soon as I finish as series, you know, it's always the same. Okay, what is the next either series I can find or the next author I can fall in love with so that I can read all of their books. Joanna: My husband is also a fantasy reader and listener, he listens to a lot of audio, and he's the same. Like each audiobook has to be at least 40 hours, and there has to be a hell of a lot of books in a series for him to be interested. So you fantasy listeners and readers, you're difficult to please. But let's just come back to your own books. So you published how many books? And then— Why did you start BookFunnel? Damon: So I published three books. And I started BookFunnel because I'd actually publi

What are some of the most effective ways to market your book? What strategies have remained the same despite the rise of new tactics? What are the best ways to reach a Christian audience? Thomas Umstattd Jr. gives plenty of tips in this interview. In the intro, Freedom, fame, or fortune — what do you want as an author?; Built to Move: The Ten Essential Habits to Help You Move Freely and Live Fully by Kelly and Juliet Starrett; and my AI for authors webinars, plus Audio for Authors: Audiobooks, Podcasting, and Voice Technologies, and money books. This podcast is sponsored by Kobo Writing Life, which helps authors self-publish and reach readers in global markets through the Kobo eco-system. You can also subscribe to the Kobo Writing Life podcast for interviews with successful indie authors.  Thomas Umstattd Jr. is the CEO of AuthorMedia.com, an award-winning professional speaker, nonfiction author, and host of the Novel Marketing Podcast and the Christian Publishing Show. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes The fundamentals of marketing fiction Content marketing for fiction Utilizing the nonfiction themes beneath your fiction for marketing The hallmarks and history of Christian publishing Why readers choose certain genres Tips for pitching a podcast You can find Thomas at AuthorMedia.com and listen to his podcasts at NovelMarketing.com and ChristianPublishingShow.com Transcript of Interview with Thomas Umstattd Jr. Joanna: Thomas Umstattd Jr. is the CEO of authormedia.com, an award-winning professional speaker, nonfiction author, and host of the Novel Marketing Podcast and the Christian Publishing Show. So welcome to the show, Thomas. Thomas: Thanks, Joanna. It's great to be here. Joanna: Oh, yes. It's exciting to talk to you. But first up— Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and podcasting, and now running a business for writers. Thomas: So back when I was in college, I started writing a book, as many college students do. I went to a writers' conference to sell my book, and I was in the marketing session, and the lady speaking was like, “You've got to start a blog. You've got to have a website.” All of the authors were terrified, like, how do I do that? I've been building websites since I was a kid. I met a real author there at this conference, and I was like, ‘well, I'll build your website for free, no problem.' So I built her website and she told all of her friends, and I started charging them. And pretty soon I was going to conferences and selling websites because everybody was interested in my websites. None of the agents were particularly interested in my book at the time. So by the time I graduated from college, I had started a website business. At our peak, we had 12 people building websites for authors all over the world. We built the MyBookTable plugin to help make our websites better. We eventually allowed and sold that to people who weren't buying websites from us, anybody could use that plugin to add books to their website. So my way into the publishing space was actually from the technical side. I was the nerd at the conference who would give the tech talks, rather than on teaching on craft or something like that. Joanna: But you have got books, right? Tell us about those. Thomas: I do. So I wrote a blog post about dating and relationships that went viral. It got a million views in around a month. A lot of the people reading that article wanted me to write a book about it. I was like, I don't know if I want to write a book. I've been working with authors for years at this point, and I knew how much work it was. So I thought I got out of it by calling everyone's bluff, and I said, alright, if you raise $10,000 on Kickstarter, then I'll write the book. So I put the book on Kickstarter, and they raised $10,000. So I was like, well, I guess I have to become an author now. So I wrote the book, and it ended up having a big impact. I'm glad I did it, but yeah, writing a book is a lot of work. I have a lot of respect for authors who are willing to walk that journey. Joanna: Well, it's so interesting that you say that because you and I are also podcasters. You have two shows, I have had two shows, but I've cut back on my second show. But you've been podcasting on Novel Marketing since 2013, so a decade now. You said that it's a lot of work to write a book, but a decade of podcasting is a lot of work. So I guess— Why did you decide to get into podcasting? Thomas: It's interesting because the reason I got into it was to help sell websites, but it turned out, I really enjoyed podcasting. So I don't build websites anymore. I've spun off that business and sold the plugin business. Now podcasting is the business. I just do the podcast and courses. I always loved listening to talk radio as a kid and being able to talk into a microphone and to teach online, either through courses or through podcast is really enjoyable for me. I love that ‘aha' experience that people have. So yes, podcasting is a lot of work, and it's become even more work. You know, as you raise the production values of your podcast, you have a bigger team, and there's more cost and more labor that goes into it, but it's worth it in the end. The end product I feel like is worth all of the work. Joanna: That's so funny because it's just me right now. Then I use some AI tools, and then I have one VA who does the blog post, the show notes. I've actually reduced to that I don't really have a team anymore. I've gone the other way. It's so interesting you say that. So I mean, we all use the tools we want to use. But I do want to come to the topics on the Novel Marketing Podcast. Although, I feel like you do cover things for fiction and nonfiction authors, a lot of marketing crosses both.  What are some of the fundamentals of marketing fiction that have remained important over the decade? Thomas: It's interesting because you and I have both been doing this long enough to see fads come and go and often come back. Like launch bonuses, we've seen that come into fashion, go out of fashion, come back into fashion. So it's interesting, like what has stayed effective for this whole time? I would say — The most important thing is writing books that readers want to read. A lot of authors see marketing as this thing that you add to a book at the last minute so that it can find its audience. It's like sugar that you sprinkle on the top of a cookie. If you really want people to eat the cookie, if you really want people to read the book, you need to bake the sugar into the cookie. The cookie itself has to taste good. You need to write a book that resonates with readers, which means knowing who your readers are and crafting the book to be the kind of book that they not only want to read, but want to share with their friends. If you don't do that, none of the other things matter because you can't fix a bad book with good marketing. There's no amount of money that you can spend to make people want a book that they don't want. You can't change other people. This is useful knowledge for marriage, but it's also useful knowledge for marketing. That's not our job. Our job is not to change people into the kind of people who liked the book we wrote. Our job as a writer is to write the kind of book that people already like. It's much easier to change your book than it is to change another human being or tens of thousands of human beings. Probably the most powerful technique back when I first got started was having an email list, and — The most powerful technique now is having an email list. That has not changed. I was a marketing director for a publishing company for a time. In the midst of the podcast, I was still doing the podcast, but a publishing company brought me in. That was a really great experience because I had access to all of their marketing data. So I'm approaching it as a marketer, and I'm doing all of these experiments, and I learned some things that kind of blew my mind. One was that Facebook did not move the numbers. Facebook activity didn't sell books at all. And this was back in 2015/2016 when Facebook was still like people thought it worked. I was like, I'm not seeing these Facebook promos moving the sales needles at all. The other thing that we saw was that email really did. An author with an email list sold so many more books than an author without an email list, especially at launch, which then gives them that momentum to carry through often for months ahead of time.  I would say probably the next most important thing, again, that hasn't changed, is owning your own platform. So if you're a chicken, the food is free at the chicken coop, but the reason the food is free at the chicken coop is because you are the product being sold. So if you're unhappy with Facebook, there's no one to talk to because you're not the customer of Facebook, you are the product that Facebook is selling to somebody else. They're selling your attention, they're selling your time to advertisers. If you want to have effective marketing, you need to be willing to be the customer, to pay. Facebook will talk to you, if you spend enough money on advertising on Facebook, suddenly you get a contact person, a customer success manager or an advertising consultant, and the whole game changes. So I'm not saying that Facebook advertising should be the tactic for you, but — If you want to be effective in your marketing, you need to see it as something you spend money on, rather than just time. The idea that, oh, I can create funny memes and share them on social media and that will make me famous, I just

Memoir can be one of the most challenging forms to write, but it can also be the most rewarding. Marion Roach Smith talks about facing your fears, as well as giving practical tips on structuring and writing your memoir. In the intro, Amazon's category changes [KDP Help; Kindlepreneur; Publisher Rocket]; Book description generation with AI; Thoughts on New Zealand and how the river forks; AI is about to turn book publishing upside down [Publishers Weekly]; Black Swan: The Impact of the Highly Improbable – Nassim Nicholas Taleb. Plus, Japan and copyright for AI training; Microsoft rolls out Designer to Teams; Google Docs text generation with Bard [Ethan Mollick]; Photoshop and generative fill [NY Times]; Drug discovery with AI [BBC; Alpha Fold]; Amazon generative search job listing [Venture Beat]; ChatGPT official app; My webinars on using AI. Today's show is sponsored by Draft2Digital, where you can get free ebook formatting, free distribution to multiple stores, and a host of other benefits. Get your free Author Marketing Guide at draft2digital.com/penn Marion Roach Smith is an author, memoir coach and teacher of memoir writing. She has online courses on writing memoir and hosts the Qwerty Podcast about memoir. Her books include The Memoir Project: A Thoroughly Non-Standardized Text for Writing & Life. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Discovering what to shape your memoir around The writing process of memoir Deciding on the structure of your memoir The importance of the title to convey your book's message Fears faced when writing memoir and how to overcome them How to know when your memoir is finished Traditional vs. indie for publishing your memoir You can find Marion at MarionRoach.com Transcript of Interview with Marion Roach Joanna: Marion Roach Smith is an author, memoir coach and teacher of memoir writing. She has online courses on writing memoir and hosts the Qwerty Podcast about memoir. Her books include The Memoir Project: A Thoroughly Non-Standardized Text for Writing & Life. So welcome back to the show, Marion. Marion: It's a joy to be here, particularly to talk about your fabulous memoir. So I just want to get that in real fast. Joanna: Thank you so much. You were last on the show, and we were talking about memoir, in July 2020. A lot has changed since then. So for those who don't know you— Tell us a bit more about you and your writing background, and why you are so passionate about memoir as a genre. Marion: Well, I've learned that — Memoir is the single greatest portal to self-discovery — and I've learned that in my own career. I was a young New York Times employee when my mother got sick with a disease that no one understood, it's now understood to be Alzheimer's disease, and I wrote about it extensively.  After that, in the 40 years of my career since then, I've written a lot of pieces of memoir, all of which allow me to explore things that I didn't actually understand when I sat down to write about them. And I do understand them a bit better now. I genuinely now believe, having worked with people for almost 30 years on their memoir writing, that everybody benefits from it. So I, in COVID, have had the great opportunity to meet a lot more people because a lot more people decided to write books, op eds, essays, long-form essays, and even just blog posts in COVID, and do a lot of exploration. What I've witnessed has been really informative. So I think this introspection, this global introspection that we were plunged into, has resulted in a lot of good copy. Yes, it's been tragic. Absolutely. But your book is an example of the time taken after the plunge to see what we really think. I think that that is the best up-to-date I can give you, is that there's good memoir out there, and there's lots of it. I'm teaching a lot of it. I did record all of my classes during COVID so people could have them on demand. That's probably my news. But mostly my news is that I think that people have spent time thinking, and I'm deeply grateful for it. Joanna: Yes, I did want to ask you about the pandemic. I mean, I wrote Pilgrimage in the pandemic. It did feel like that chance to pause. And also, for me, it's always this idea of memento mori, remember you will die. Is that a common thing with memoir? Not just with the pandemic, but in general, is it sort of confronting our mortality is why we almost want to write these things? I mean, with you, you mentioned with your mum, I mean, that was a mortality moment facing Alzheimer’s. Is it fear of death or thoughts about death that makes a lot of people write? Marion: Well, as you know, there's nothing like a deadline, Joanna, and we all need them. I do best, literally, when the thing is due in two hours. I can whip it out better than if you give me two weeks. So what COVID brought very clear to all of us is that we're all on a deadline. I think that whether it was conscious or unconscious, the memento mori idea is positively motivating. I need to get this out. And that's what I saw was an astonishing amount of input worldwide from people. I did hear from people all over the world, and this is one of the few things we've shared is the global recognition that we're all on a deadline. Joanna: I'll tell you one of the things that I have heard from people and that I felt myself is, well, but what does it matter? When we sit down to write these things, will anyone care? You know, there's all this stuff going on in the world, should I write this? How do we get over that sense? Marion: We share our humanity when we write memoir because this is not autobiography. This is not the Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday version of your life, which really, very few people should have to be exposed to. I don't want to read your date book. I want you to do the curation from your life, to show me your transcendent change, just the way you do in Pilgrimage, in your beautiful new memoir. You show us what's at stake in the beginning, that you're discontent, that you've got a real issue that you would like to walk through. We get to see that transcendent change as you generously pluck for us, from your total experience, just those scenes that we need to see, and to witness transcendent change. We're not reading your book because of what you did — albeit three remarkable pilgrimages. We're reading your book for what you did with it.  That's what the humanity piece of memoir does so beautifully. It allows us to witness your transcendent change. Always a memoir writer should keep this in mind. We are reading your book for our own feeding, our own ideas of transcendent change. Your book gives us the sense that we can change, that we can evolve, that we can have a portal, walk through it, and come out with a new consideration of life. So people do care, written well like yours is, we change reading it. Joanna: You talk about that transcendent change, and this is definitely something that I was struggling with the shape of the book, in terms of I had loads of material and I didn't know what it was going to be. So I had the notes from my walks, I thought maybe it was some travelogues, or some guide books, and then I had these essays about my travels. I thought this sort of bubbling up from the bottom up is what I was thinking, that somehow it would turn into something. But as you say around the change, I didn't know that it might even be a memoir until I realized my own personal change from the beginning to the end of the process. Jo Frances Penn with Pilgrimage So can you give us some more examples of what that transcendent change might be? I mean, transcendent change seems life-changing or something massive, but it might be smaller things, too. What are some things that people might find in their own lives to shape a memoir around? Marion: It's a great question, because it doesn't have to be a bummer, it doesn't have to be misery based, and it doesn't have to be huge. It can be an absolutely huge story set in a war where you have some effect on that, but more often than not, it's the small stuff of life that changes us. The recognition that I am going too fast, and that if I don't learn to meditate, if I don't learn to bring a little zen here, I am going to be that person who is trying every day to demand from others what they simply cannot give to me. So that small change. If you've ever witnessed a type A person trying to learn to meditate, it's torturous, right? Because what do they do? They buy all the meditation apps, and where do they listen to them? In their car while they're driving. It's like, no, that's not going to work. And it makes for an amusing, but also universal, peace. So you can learn to love a dog. You can learn to love a garden, that it came with a house that you just bought. I always say to people — If you write from one of your areas of expertise at a time, you will never run out of things to write. You will have a writing life if you say to yourself, what do I know after what I've been through with the caregiving of my mother? What do I know after raising twelve dogs? What do I know after going on three pilgrimages? What do I know after living in this world with a sick child? Those are each separate pieces. They're either blog posts, essays, op eds, long form essays, or books. People can write 8-10 book-length memoirs in this lifetime if they write from one area of their expertise at a time, and stop writing that autobiography that begins with their great-great grandfather and ends with what they had for lunch today. That is a book you're never going to f

What are the crucial linchpin moments in your novel and how can you keep a reader turning the pages? John Fox gives fiction writing tips in this interview. In the intro, writing and publishing across multiple genres [Ask ALLi]; Pilgrimage and solo walking [Women Who Walk]; My live webinars on using AI tools as an author; Cowriting with ChatGPT: AI-Powered Storytelling by J. Thorn. Today's show is sponsored by ProWritingAid, writing and editing software that goes way beyond just grammar and typo checking. With its detailed reports on how to improve your writing and integration with Scrivener, ProWritingAid will help you improve your book before you send it to an editor, agent or publisher. Check it out for free or get 25% off the premium edition at www.ProWritingAid.com/joanna John Matthew Fox is an award-winning short story writer, a developmental editor, writing teacher and blogger. His latest book is The Linchpin Writer: Crafting Your Novel's Key Moments. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Writing a book based on a blog — what needs to change? Linchpin moments and why they are important How to write emotionally moving stories The difference between scenes and chapters How to write wonder Writing better endings Using AI tools when writing fiction and editing You can find John at TheJohnFox.com or on TikTok @johnmatthewfox. John has courses for writers here. Transcript of Interview with John Matthew Fox Joanna: John Matthew Fox is an award-winning short story writer, a developmental editor, writing teacher and blogger. His latest book is The Linchpin Writer: Crafting Your Novel's Key Moments. So welcome back to the show, John. John: Thank you, so wonderful to be back. Joanna: Yes, indeed. Just in case people don't know you— Tell us a bit more about how you got into writing and publishing. John: I started my blog way back in the day, 2006, just to join the literary conversation. And over time, it evolved from a blog on literary news and commentary into more of a craft blog, just helping writers with their novels, short stories, children's books, any sort of fictional storyline.  Now, I've been editing for quite a while for authors, doing developmental edits. I offer courses, both on-demand courses and live courses. I'm starting up a publishing branch, which is self-publishing assistance, I like to call it. Not traditional publishing, not vanity publishing, but something in between. Joanna: There's certainly a call for all of that. Your courses are great. I think you've got some fantastic information on your site. Is this the first nonfiction book you've done? John: Yes, it is. I had the short story collection, and then the nonfiction book just came out in October, so it's relatively new. I've been getting lots of feedback from writers who have been enjoying it and using it to write their books and revise their books. Those are lovely emails to get. I guess I'd been helping writers in one way or another for a whole decade through emails, and articles, and developmental editing and whatnot. So I'm like, well, why don't I try to put down some of the things that are most helpful for writers. Why don't I try to put that down on the page? I have a good amount of stories about the writing life as well, so I thought I'd include those so it's not just cut and dry, boring, do this and do this craft information, one, two, three. I think it has been helpful for writers. It's been a joy to interact with them on another level.  I do think nonfiction, in general, is a lot easier for me to write than fiction is. There's so much imagination that has to go into fiction, and so much plotting and characterization. Nonfiction, man, I just sat down and wrote it. It just spilled out so easily, so it made me enjoy the process of writing quickly. Joanna: We'll get into the book in a minute. I know a lot of people listening, they might also have years’ worth of blog posts and articles, and you have a lot of really well-crafted articles on your site. How did you turn some of those into a book? Or did you start from scratch? You know, because a while back there was this sort of ‘from blog to book, just output your WordPress files into a book format.' And it's like, no, that's not how you do it. Did you use elements of your blog articles and rewrite them? Or did you start the book from scratch? What was that process? John: I definitely started from scratch because if you know anything about how to write for online media, it is just vastly different than writing a book. You definitely can't take that blog post and just throw it in a chapter and be like, alright, I'm good. It doesn't work like that at all. So what I did is I took topics that had been really important to my readers, certain topics that I'd written a post on, and then I just wrote on that topic, but completely from scratch. I don't think I used a single sentence from the blog inside the book. It's all new stuff. Then there was some stuff that wouldn't work as blog posts, like, I don't know, like writing about wonder or writing about emotion, like that's stuff that people aren't going to search for. It's really difficult to write a blog post about that, but they work really well inside of a book. That's probably because not a lot of authors talk about them or not a lot of authors like study those topics. So the book gave me a lot more latitude to go into areas that I hadn't been able to cover with the blog. Joanna: I think that's good advice. I do think starting from scratch is a good idea. Okay, let's get into the book. So the book is called The Linchpin Writer. What are these linchpin moments, and why are they important? John: So linchpin refers to these little pins that go inside the hub of a wheel so it doesn't fall off the axle, right? That's the original term, and then what it's become is a term that refers to like really key people or objects or ideas inside of an organization. I think a linchpin moment inside of a book is a make-or-break moment where the reader might stop reading, or if the reader doesn't like that particular scene, it's going to ruin the book for them. So they are the most key places in your novel where you absolutely have to get them right. So as writers, we should probably concentrate on those places more and make sure we really nail them. It's stuff like when you became a writer, it's a death scene for a character, it's stuff like romance, or a particularly climactic romantic scene. It's describing a character for the first time, or ending a chapter, or ending the whole book. All of these are really critical moments whereas the writer, you've just got to nail it, you got to nail them to make your reader happy. Joanna: Well, first up, you mentioned a linchpin moment for an author, and I think that's really interesting. In the book, you say, “when they became a writer,” and I find this a very interesting phrase, “became a writer,” because to me, these days, there are a lot of different routes to market. I mean, someone might be a blogger for a decade, that makes them a writer, but that doesn't necessarily make them an author. Someone might have millions of Kindle page reads, or millions of views on Wattpad, but no physical book, and these days, obviously no traditional publisher. What do you mean by a linchpin moment for the author? And how might people measure it? John: I don't think the medium is very important, right? I mean, if they just have millions of eBook reads, or millions of reads online, that doesn't matter to me as opposed to a print book. I feel like if you're writing, you're a writer. And if people are reading your writing, in whatever form, then you're an author. You know, I don't think it's super, super complex. I think, ultimately, writers feel nervous about calling themselves writers because there's this crisis of confidence inside yourself. And I'd say just, hey, summon up the inner confidence, like you are writing, you're putting words down on a page, they will find readers if they already haven't. So just call yourself a writer and feel confident about that. Joanna: Easier said than done! And actually, I do think this is important, because I've been talking to a lot of people, and after the pandemic, including myself, we haven't necessarily been writing a lot because of various reasons, mental health reasons or burnout. There are a lot of people, myself included, who make a good deal of money from backlist books. So actually, you can still be an author and not be an active writer. So actually, I think these definitions become important when your self image is based on these things. John: You mentioned people taking breaks or not writing for a time, and I actually think that's key to being a writer. I think a healthy writer takes breaks. I mean, after my first book, I didn't write any fiction for a while. I think I probably, I don't know, I was burned out, or the book didn't launch with the fanfare I expected it to. I had to recalibrate my expectations for being a writer and come up with a new project to work on. To me, that's not an aberration. You're not failing as a writer if you're not writing for a time period. Life happens. Parents get sick, children are born, like, it's fine to take a break from writing. I think writers end up having ideas and coming back to writing at some point, that's what makes you a writer. I think people shouldn't feel ashamed just because they're not writing for a period of time. Like, that's part of the writing process. Joanna: I like that because one of the most common questions I get is, “Oh, so you say you're a f

How can we write about places that inspire us in an authentic way even when they are not our own country? Tony Park gives his tips for writing setting, and also outlines how his publishing experience has changed over the last two decades. In the intro, KDP printing costs are changing from 20 June; plus, join me for AI for Writers online webinars. This podcast is sponsored by Kobo Writing Life, which helps authors self-publish and reach readers in global markets through the Kobo eco-system. You can also subscribe to the Kobo Writing Life podcast for interviews with successful indie authors.  Tony Park is the author of 20 thriller novels set in Africa, as well as the co-writer of several biographies. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes How Tony's publishing experience has changed over two decades Splitting territories when licensing your rights and tips for rights reversion Tips for writing setting and how it incorporates into all aspects of your book Research and avoiding stereotypes Writing outside of your own country and personal experience Balancing writing a compelling story with advocating for a cause (without lecturing) You can find Tony at TonyPark.net Transcript of Interview with Tony Park Joanna: Tony Park is the author of 20 thriller novels set in Africa, as well as the co-writer of several biographies. So welcome, Tony. Tony: Oh, Joanna, thank you so much for having me on the podcast. I really appreciate it. I'm a huge fan. Joanna: Thank you so much. First off— Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing. Tony: Look, it might sound a bit cliche, but it's absolutely true, that the only thing I ever wanted to do in life, from the time I was a little boy growing up in Sydney, in Australia, was to write a book. My family weren't particularly well off, and my mum was working two jobs and used to leave us in the library after school. I just thought, wouldn't it be cool if this could be your job to write books. Of course, as we all know, listening to this podcast, it's not like you can wake up one day and say, okay, I'm going to write a book, and publish it, and away we go. I loved writing as a kid. I wasn't any good at English or maths at school, and so I pinned my hopes on writing. After I left school, I got a job working in local newspapers, and that cemented my love of writing. Then I just tried and tried and tried. I had a number of false starts over the years as my life progressed. I'd wake up early in the morning before work and try and start a novel. And I'd try after work, and I couldn't really focus. This went on for years and years. Too long, I think I waited too long to get serious about it. I got married, and got a mortgage, and real life intruded and everything. The two biggest challenges I faced were time, right, that everybody faces, you know. But a place was what eluded me, and I know we're going to talk about that a bit later on. All I knew is I wanted to write a novel. I hadn't even really thought long enough to think where I was going to set it or when I was going to set it. When I was about 32, 33, I went to my wife and I said, “I've got an idea. How about I leave work and you support us for six months, and I'll try and write a book?” Joanna: Nice one! Tony: And to my utter astonishment, she said, “Yes, go for it,” because I think she was sick of me, you know, going on about how much I wanted to write. And so I did. I left work, and I wrote a book. I bought a couple of books about how to write books. I wrote this book like textbook style, like I plotted it meticulously, I had character profiles, and a timeline, and chapter breakdown and everything. The place I picked for it was wrong because I made a fundamental error. I was writing a book that I think I wanted other people to read, rather than something I was passionate about. So I set it in the Australian Outback. And there was one tiny problem, I've never actually been to The Outback. Joanna: Even though you're Australian. Tony: Even though I'm Australian. I'm a city boy, you know, I was living in the suburbs.  I took six months, I wrote a book, and I failed spectacularly. I didn't enjoy the process of plotting. I didn't know that you could not plot, that you could just make it up as you went along because I had no formal training. And I found it very mechanical and very boring.  [More on discovery writing here!] Around about that time, my wife and I went on a holiday to Africa, which was supposed to be a once-in-a-lifetime trip. Instead, we got hooked on Africa and went back the following year, and back the following year.  On my third trip to Africa, we had a long trip, about four months around Southern Africa, and I had another go at writing a book because I once more had time. I'd had to go back to work, but I once more had time. And here I was in a place that I had kind of started to get to know, and was amazing and inspirational and fascinating, and there was so much going on here. I thought, I could write a book set in Africa. And instead of plotting it, I'll just make it up as I go along. So it was set on a fictitious tour around Africa, as my wife and I were travelling around Southern Africa. Each day as we moved camp, I just wrote another few pages and made it up as we went along, and just copied the landscapes that we were in into the text.  I sent it to a publisher, and the first publisher I sent it to, Pan Macmillan Australia, published it. And my publisher said you can write the books in Africa. And here I am 20 years later writing the books in Africa. Joanna: I love the story. There's so much to learn from that. So 20 years later, and we're going to come back to Africa and the setting thing, but you said 20 years later, you're still writing and publishing. But of course, things have changed in 20 years. One of the things I picked up from your website is that you also run Ingwe Publishing. Tell us how your publishing experience has changed over the last two decades? Because things have really changed and you have too, obviously. Tony: It's massive the amount of change. Yeah, my life has changed, it has moved on. Technology has changed. Everything has moved on. And I think like, you know, when we talk about those days, it seems like a long time ago, is that people would pin their hopes on getting a commercial publishing deal. And I did, and I was absolutely thrilled and over the moon when I got it. A funny little side story, I was in the Australian Army Reserve for 34 years. I was actually in Afghanistan. I was deployed there in 2002 when I got the email from my publisher saying, “Hey, good news. Open this email, we're going to give you a publishing contract.” And I couldn't even have a beer to celebrate because we were on the dry out there. So I was really thrilled to get a publishing deal. I thought that was the be all and end all. And over the years, I had some limited success, it started to grow. My primary market was my home market in Australia, even though these books are all set in Africa. It is a thing, it's almost like a genre of its own, African fiction. I had some success getting commercial publishing deals in the UK, and later in the US, but the books didn't do particularly well. I had gone from this high to thinking, “Oh, no, why aren't I selling many books there?” And that really started to affect me quite badly. Then things changed dramatically, you know, over the last few years, and I learned so much. Not least of all from your podcasts and hearing from other authors who were independently publishing.  Of course, 20 years ago, when I was first publishing, there was quite a bit of stigma attached to self-publishing. You know, it was called vanity publishing, because you had to be very vain, and you had to be very rich to do it. You'd have to print thousands of copies of books, and then pay a distributor to try and get them in the shop. So it was this hugely involved, expensive process.  I have found in more recent years, that what made more sense for me was to kind of do a civil sort of deal with my UK publishers and the distributors and say, “Look, guys, it's not really working for both of us,” because it wasn't. I was losing so much, because I had an agent at the time, I was losing so much on all of the in-between cuts that come out of a royalty. It wasn't worth it. I was down to about 30 pence per book, I think I was making, you know. So I set up Ingwe Publishing, Ingwe means leopard, and took back my rights. I was then able to start exploring print on demand and eBook self-publishing, and indie publishing. And I found that for my sales in the UK and US, which I'm very proud of, but you know, I'm not selling hundreds of thousands, or millions of books, I make a really, really good second income out of it.  I think having your own imprint and taking control of those matters, not just from a business side of things, but from a personal side of things, has been really rewarding and fulfilling, far more so than chasing those kinds of overseas publishing deals and trying to define yourself by those sorts of deals. Which they quite often aren't really in the interest of an author. Joanna: So you're, I guess, what we now call a hybrid author, in that you still license to traditional publishing in Australia? Tony: And South Africa. Australia, New Zealand and South Africa are my commercial markets, or traditional markets. Yeah. Joanna: Okay, that's really interesting. And so just for people listening, that's English language that you have split into territory. So you're not signing contracts for World Engl

What are some of the common mental health issues that writers face? How can we use writing to help us process our problems, and turn our life into art through our books? Author and mental health therapist Toby Neal shares her thoughts and tips. It's Mental Health Awareness Week here in the UK with a special focus on anxiety, which so many of us experience in different ways. Get 20% off The Healthy Writer, The Relaxed Author and The Successful Author Mindset on my store using discount code: HEALTH. In the introduction, Outlive: The Science and Art of Longevity by Dr Peter Attia; Menopausing by Davina McCall; Ultimate Guide to Selling Print Books Online [ALLi]; TikTok publishing? [TechCrunch]; Google rolling out generative AI, Duet for Workspace; Generative Search, Marketing Against the Grain podcast; Did we consent to our data training generative AI? [The Author Analyst]; Writing memoir & Pilgrimage. Today's podcast sponsor is Findaway Voices, which gives you access to the world's largest network of audiobook sellers and everything you need to create and sell professional audiobooks. Take back your freedom. Choose your price, choose how you sell, choose how you distribute audio. Check it out at FindawayVoices.com. Toby Neal is the award-winning USA Today best-selling author of mysteries, thrillers, and romance, with over 40 titles, as well as writing memoir and travel. She's also a mental health therapist, which is what we're talking about today. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Common mental health challenges for authors Tips for dealing with post-COVID anxiety Dealing with the overwhelm of social media Journaling as a tool to help process and make sense of our lives Writing as a way to turn life into art Tracking self-care How to find a community of like-minded people Working through fear of the future and how to weatherize your author business You can find Toby at TobyNeal.net Transcript of Interview with Toby Neal Joanna: Toby Neal is the award-winning USA Today best-selling author of mysteries, thrillers and romance, with over 40 titles, as well as writing memoir and travel. She's also a mental health therapist, which is what we're talking about today. So welcome back to the show, Toby. Toby: Thanks so much for having me again, Joanna. Joanna: I'm excited to talk to you about this really important topic. And before we get into it, we should say, this is not medical or professional advice. Please see your medical professional for your situation. So you've been on the show several times before, so we're just going to jump straight into the topic. As an author yourself, and someone who helps authors with mental health challenges— What are some of the most common challenges that authors face in this area? Toby: Well, I see that most authors who are working in the field at full-time to semi full-time are struggling with isolation, a lot of times anxiety and overwhelm. Many authors have triggered episodes of depression based on the sales of a book, rejections, etc. There are a lot of sort of cyclical challenges that we face in this creative field. Joanna: So interesting. We're going to talk about some of those. Let's start with anxiety because I feel like it can manifest in different ways. I love that you say cyclical there. I mean, chronic self-doubt, fear of failure, perfectionism, imposter syndrome, and it can end up in panic attacks. Lots of anxiety, really. What are some of the things that you've seen or even experienced yourself? Any recommendations? Toby: I don't think we can tackle this topic without talking a little bit about how COVID and the isolation of the last few years have sort of exacerbated the challenges for not just authors, but everyone. And they've also exacerbated the dearth of professionals that are available to help. At least in my area of rural Oregon, you can't find a therapist, even if you are begging for one. A lot of people left the field, and there's just been a gigantic situation with isolation. And whatever your challenge was going into COVID, it might have gotten amplified. I feel that that is something we just have to mention. So circling back around to the issue of anxiety. Another one we see a lot now is fear of leaving your home, which is agoraphobia. And because we spent so much time in our home, getting out can become something you have to begin to overcome again. And what if you gained weight? And what if you don't like yourself right now because, you know, of that COVID 10 pounds or what have you? All of those things get to be, like I said, amplified by the last few years. And we're not entirely out of the woods with that. Joanna: I mean, it's interesting you mentioned fear of leaving home and agoraphobia. I feel like anxiety, and depression, and many of these words we use in mental health, people are like, “Oh, I don't feel that. It's not that bad.” Like, certainly for me, when you say agoraphobia, I'm like, “No, of course, I don't feel that.” But equally, I had to really get back into expanding my comfort zone. That's kind of what I'm calling it. Maybe a light version. I think maybe a lot of us have light versions of these things because we're not talking necessarily about things that need medication here. What we're talking about is things that play a part in all of our lives. So I have to actively, and I'm someone who travels, right. It's like, oh, it would be much easier to just stay at home, but I have to push myself out there. What are some ways that we can deal with some of these things? Whether we call it anxiety, or whether we call it stress. Toby: Stress, or just, you know, getting out of our comfort zone, what became comfortable during COVID, you know. I kind of forgot how to put makeup on and how to dress and basic things like that. My hair, it's a mile long and hasn't been styled in forever. All of those things become something that you kind of have to put your big girl panties on and deal with.  I'm going to talk a little bit about a couple of tools that I feel are really helpful and easy to access for anyone. One of them is called tapping, Emotional Freedom Technique. I use an app on my phone called The Tapping Solution. I am not an affiliate, so I'm going to always say if I'm an affiliate of something. I am not an affiliate of The Tapping Solution, but it's got a wonderful library of these different scenarios that you might face with anxiety, from turning your day around, to ten days of gratitude, to increasing your immune system. What tapping is, is a sequential series of pulse points on your face and hand while repeating different affirmations. So what's really nice is the people on the app have this lovely mellifluous voice and talk you through first owning the anxiety that you have, and then turning it around to an affirmation. And meanwhile, you're doing this little tapping sequence. It's very noninvasive, you can learn it in five minutes.  I can't say enough good things about it because I've seen it have actual lasting clinical benefits for clients, as well as being completely accessible to the general public. So again, The Tapping Solution and tapping, or EFT. You can look it up online, there's all kinds of YouTube videos also. So that's one tool I want to mention to everyone. And it cannot just be anxiety, but whatever that you want to work on. Like I've often worked on, I have a sugar addiction, releasing my attachment to sugar. And really trying, when we get into other tools, for me, diet and exercise are huge in managing mental health. So I am a clinical therapist licensed in the state of Hawaii to do therapy, and I have all those degrees and what have you, but at the core of it, I'm a person who has struggled with an abusive past growing up in an alcoholic home, overcoming a lot of trauma, and trying to heal myself. All of that led me to become a therapist, and ultimately, a writer, which was always my dream from the beginning. So that's kind of my background. So I'm not like speaking to you from a place of “oh, I have it all figured out.” I struggle, and I'm in the trenches right with you trying to use these tools. So I want to share the ones that have been particularly helpful. Another one I love is hypnosis. And when I was trained in clinical hypnosis, my teacher said, “All hypnosis is basically self-hypnosis.” We basically allow our minds to open us to a suggestion, and then we engage with that suggestion. Hypnosis is a super powerful tool along with tapping. I, for my clients, sometimes I will work with them to create a list of beliefs and affirmations that they want in their lives. Then I'll use my special hypnosis voice to use their own words to create a hypnosis recording that they can listen to over and over. And we've had lots of people see really big breakthroughs with that. You can get your hypnosis done online. There's all kinds of things you can buy. The Calm app even has some in it. Like if you want to listen to different hypnosis for sleep, or hypnosis for getting rid of sugar or whatever. So I want to mention these because to me, tapping and hypnosis are hacks. They just like cut through the need to talk about the problem and get right to the solution. Does that make sense? Joanna: I really love that. I've tried hypnotherapy for phobia and I've tried cognitive behavioral therapy. Also, there are other apps, non-sleep deep relaxation, for example, yoga. I mean, the ones that you've suggested, and I think this is the overwhelming thing that I feel with mental health and probably with physical health, is you can dismiss things and roll your eyes if you think, oh, that's too woo

AI tools can generate words, but the human intention behind it, as well as the skill of the author, drives the machine. Stephen Marche talks about the creative process behind Death of an Author, 95% written by AI, out now from Pushkin Industries. Today's show is sponsored by my wonderful patrons who fund my brain so I have time to think about and discuss these futurist topics impacting authors. If you support the show, you also get the extra monthly patron-only Q&A audio. You can support the show at www.patreon.com/thecreativepenn Stephen Marche is a Canadian novelist and journalist. He's also the creator of Death of an Author by Aiden Marchine, a novella written 95% by AI tools out now from Pushkin Industries. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below. Show Notes How Stephen co-created Death of an Author with various AI tools: ChatGPT, Sudowrite, and Cohere The importance of specificity in prompts and why those who know what they want, and have experience with writing and different forms of literature have an advantage Why the intellectual process is more important than the mechanical process Why co-creating with AI tools is like being a hip-hop producer On copyright: “I am its author legally, but a machine wrote it based on my instructions.” How authors might approach co-creating with AI if they want to work with traditional publishers What remains the same despite advances in technology: “Creative AI is going to change everything. It's also going to change nothing.” Death of an Author is out now from Pushkin Industries in audiobook and ebook formats. The press release also has more details about the process, and there is an Afterword in the book where Stephen goes into more detail. You can find Stephen at StephenMarche.com Header image created on Midjourney by Joanna Penn. Transcript of the interview Joanna Penn: Stephen Marche is a Canadian novelist and journalist. He's also the creator of Death of an Author by Aiden Marchine, a novella written 95% by AI tools out now from Pushkin Industries. So welcome to the show, Stephen. Stephen Marche: Hi, how are you? Joanna Penn: I am good. So first up, tell us a bit more about you and your writing background and how you came to become interested in AI. Stephen Marche: Well, am I speaking to a robot at this moment? Joanna Penn: No. No! Stephen Marche: Okay. I just had a sudden sense that I was, I don't know why but like, I've become more skeptical of these things all the time. I've been writing my whole life and I've written novels and so on. But the beginning of AI writing for me was actually a piece I wrote in 2012 for LA Review of Books, which was Against Digital Humanities. And you know, as I was sort of critiquing digital humanities, Which I still, I mean, I don't think I changed that critique at all. I started to know about some really cool things that were happening, and I became very interested in them and very fascinated with them, particularly with, at that point it was programming around R, and it was analytics mainly, but then in 2017, I wrote an algorithmic story for Wired, like we used computer models to generate. We created our own program, Sci-Fi Q, me and a computer scientist to make that. Then with the birth of the transformer, of course, which changed everything in this field, I began to work on other aspects of it. I wrote a 17% computer-generated horror story for the LA Review of Books in, I think it was 2020. And then an auto-tune love story, where I used Cohere to build these bots, to create stylistic bots. Then I would each generate one sentence of a love story, and I published that in Lit Hub a couple of years ago now. But then when Jacob came to me with the Death of an Author idea, it was of course just a completely different scale of things, and I was fascinated with what it could do. And it was sort of a much broader project than any AI fiction I'd ever worked on before. Joanna Penn: Wow. So you've been involved in this for over a decade now, but of course, as you said, things have changed and it does also sound like you're quite technical, like our programming and things like that. So most people listening are authors and writers, but they're not very technical. So I wondered whether you could explain — How did you co-create Death of an Author with AI tools? Stephen Marche: Well, I mean, I would say that like I'm not technical like that. I mean, that would be a gross exaggeration of my abilities. I mean, I did learn to program in R briefly, like, I mean, to say that ‘I can program in R' is like saying if you can plunk out Mary had a little lamb on the piano, that you know how to play the piano. Like I knew I did it just enough to know what it involved. Right. And I would not say that I have a major technical facility in this stuff at all, but with Death of an Author, I did have access to three technologies really that I had used before in which I used, so one was ChatGPT, the big one that everyone talks about and which really has sparked the interest in this, right? Like before ChatGPT, I had a great deal of trouble selling articles and essays about AI to publications. They just weren't interested right? After ChatGPT — it has since become the most important story in the world really. But, so I used ChatGPT to create very specific blocks of text. Then I would take those blocks into Sudowrite, which is a stochastic writing instrument. Do you know that? Do you know Sudowrite? Have you ever used it? Joanna Penn: Yes, absolutely. Amit has been on the show as well. [I also have a tutorial on Sudowrite for fiction.] Stephen Marche: So I've used Sudowrite before to do things. I wrote a piece about them for The New Yorker. I used the shorten button, the add detail button, and I used the customize button a lot to reshape the text. I mean, almost everything was in that process. I tried other large language models, like I tried character.ai and I tried a bunch of other ones because people were sending me like, ‘come check out our stuff,' because I'd been writing about it and I really didn't find anything comparable to that except for Cohere. Cohere is a large language model out of Canada. I've done other critical and creative work with them before and I used a different system for them. I created prompts and then I framed those prompts and then I got the prompts to generate images. I wanted the book to have good lines in it, like lines that really stood out because ChatGPT is not as good at that. ChatGPT is good at creating functional prose, but for real beauty, which you want in a novel, I felt I needed other techniques and Cohere was really that. All the good lines in the book come from Cohere. Joanna Penn: I think that's fascinating. So just coming back to ChatGPT, because a lot of people listening have tried it and they're finding that they can't even really create blocks of functional prose. And mainly it's because they don't really know how to prompt. Even at the beginning, they might say, ‘Write me a novel about a guy in a dungeon' or whatever, and so they're just writing one line or two lines. How can people start creating with more specific prompts? Stephen Marche: Well, the key is to be incredibly specific about what you want, right? The thing that's fascinating about writing prompts for writing is that you have to actually understand what you want, which I mean very few people do when they set out to write a novel, right? So it would literally be, write a paragraph in a mixture of simple and compound-complex sentences with variable lengths between the sentences in the style of —and then maybe five or six adjectives to describe the style containing the following information, colon, and then the information, and then it would generate something. That was unwieldy. And then you would take it into Sudowrite, and use that to change it and alter it till you got to something interesting. So much like the prompts for text to image, the longer the prompt, the better the reaction. But the prompts and literature have to be incredibly specific about syntax and grammar and substance and style, like very, very specific. I mean, to me that's what I got. Other people have had different experiences, I'm sure, but that to me is the key. Whereas the Cohere system where you train it on prompts actually doesn't require that same level of control. I mean, it does when you create the prompt, but if you train it on like 15 examples of great images, it does produce great images, which is another method. Joanna Penn: And when you say images, you mean like metaphorical images for it to come up with text? Stephen Marche: Yeah. Correct. Joanna Penn: So, just coming back to ChatGPT, because I've written nearly 20 novels and so I actually asked it to write in my voice, as my fiction voice, and it actually did a really good job. Did you try prompting it as you? Stephen Marche: No, I mean, I'm a very incoherent personality, right? Like, I mean, my books are just really, really different from each other, and like they're incoherent basically. There's nothing I would say that I could identify as specifically mine, right? And also I'm writing in a particular genre, right? Like the murder mystery. And that requires a different approach than one that I would use to say the piece about the coronation that I just wrote for The Guardian or the novel that I wrote that was about werewolves and billionaires. Also, I think when you're using this technology to write, you have to understand the limitations and run into the limitations, right? I mean, that's true of every literary form, but in this case, there are certain things that

What are the implications of generative AI for the indie author community? How can we make choices for our own creative business while respecting the decisions of others? Dan Wood (Draft2Digital) and Michael Anderle (20BooksTo50K, LMBPN) and I discuss our recommendations for the way forward. In the intro, Ingram Spark offers free title setup and revisions (up to 60 days); Findaway Voices cuts Spotify distribution fee; Lessons learned from selling a million books; Go Wide or Run Away or Amazon Fail by Kris Rusch; Reputation Revolution Podcast; Pilgrimage is out on every store and in every format; Cover design split testing with Pickfu; A Note from the Author by Kevin Tumlinson. This podcast is sponsored by Written Word Media, which makes book marketing a breeze by offering quick, easy and effective ways for authors to promote their books. You can also subscribe to the Written Word Media email newsletter for book marketing tips. Michael Anderle (LMBPN), Joanna Penn (The Creative Penn), and Dan Wood (DRaft2Digital) at London Book Fair, April 2023 Dan Wood is the COO of Draft2Digital, which helps authors self-publish alongside excellent support. Michael Anderle is the award-nominated internationally bestselling author of more than 40 urban fantasy and science fiction novels. He's also the co-author of many more with other authors under his company LMBPN Publishing. Michael is also the founder of the 20 Books to 50 K Facebook group and community. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below. Show Notes Why generative AI offers opportunities for authors Michael explains his audacious publishing goal and breaks down how it could be achieved across multiple formats and languages, along with the help of generative AI Tackling some of the fears and anxieties that authors have — flood of content, quality, marketing competition, copyright, and more Will books co-written with AI be flagged or banned from the distributors? Why you shouldn't use author or artist names in your prompts Uses for AI in marketing Making your own choices — and respecting others whose choices might be different from your own You can find Michael Anderle at LMBPN Publishing, and Dan Wood at Draft2Digital and on Twitter @danwoodok Transcript of the discussion Joanna Penn: Dan Wood is the COO of Draft2Digital, which helps authors self-publish alongside excellent support. Michael Anderle is the award-nominated internationally bestselling author of more than 40 urban fantasy and science fiction novels. He's also the co-author of many more with other authors under his company LMBPN Publishing. Michael is also the founder of the 20 Books to 50 K Facebook group and community. So welcome to the show guys. Hello. Both: Hello. Thanks for having us. Joanna Penn: I'm excited for this talk. So Dan, let's start with you. What are you most excited about in terms of generative AI for authors and the publishing industry, and what are you playing with personally? Dan Wood: I'm very excited by the opportunity to use some of the large, large language models to help authors when they are stuck. It's like having a writing partner that you can run ideas off of. And with ChatGPT and some of the others, you can just say, you know, I'm thinking this, give me like three or four scenarios of how this might play out. I think that's very cool. Like many other people, I've had just a ton of fun with products like MidJourney to make images and just making outrageous images and seeing how they turn out. I think when you think about what that could do for helping authors communicate with their cover designer and help them understand their vision and then the cover designer coming in with their knowledge of how the cover should look for that genre, and typography and all those good things. I think it just makes communicating between artists a lot easier. As far as what I'm playing with, for me, my job, I came from a very technical job originally and my role at Draft2Digital has largely been around people's skills and managing and all of that. And so I've had a ton of fun just playing around with the way in which you're gonna help you code. I was never a programmer by trade, but I did learn it in college and so it's enabled me to just kind of play around with little projects that I thought would be fun. I've used it for helping me write marketing copy because I hate writing, like doing marketing speak. So it's helped me with my job some. And then like I'm looking at how it might help some of our younger members of our team with things like Excel, because it's very powerful at helping people write things like macros for Excel. They used to take classes and classes to learn how to do all the different things Excel can do, and now you can basically tell ChatGPT what you want it to do and it will come up with a macro for you and that's just awesome. Joanna Penn: I love that you mentioned fun there because I definitely have a lot of fun. And you also said ‘writing partner' and I really feel like I'm co-writing with GPT4 now for sure. But Michael, let's come to you. So at 20 Books Seville where we all met up and for that conference you talked in your keynote about how AI developments have enabled you to think much bigger as a publishing company — and as I always say to you, your ambition is hella bigger than mine and I really appreciate that. Tell us what you said at 20 Books Seville about the 10,000 books in a year in case anyone hasn't heard that and why you are excited about AI. Michael Anderle: Goodness gracious. So one of the things that people probably either know or don't know about me is I got in trouble six years ago for saying that someone could put out 20 books in a year. And it caused a kerfuffle. And now people need to understand, I didn't say necessarily the 20 books in a year. What I said was 20 books to get to 50K a year. And now I say, I have a big audacious goal of getting to 10,000 books produced. And that all of a sudden became a big kerfluffle. I guess they didn't understand some of the ramifications of that. But when I'm looking at things, I am looking at my competition. And for me, unlike perhaps a lot of people, for me, my competition is Delray, my competition is Penguin Random House, and they have the ability to put out hundreds, if not thousands, and tens of thousands of books. And that's where I kind of look at this and I see the opportunities. Now. LMBPN has already been down the path. We've already put out 350 books in one year. You know, we've already challenged, if you will, the mid-tiers. The next challenge for us are the biggest guys, and I believe that with what's going on, AI is going to allow us to do that. A lot of the things that Dan had mentioned before come into play. How do we allow in all of the aspects of our publishing business to run way more efficiently? How do we get out the pieces that don't work well, whether it's an Excel spreadsheet or whatever it is, and AI is gonna allow us to do that. I completely agree with the aspects on the creativity. I've done well over a hundred series. Not too many people can claim that. I have had to go down the path of how do I get the next idea? Stephen King talks about ‘read every day.' Well, when you're writing as much as I wrote for the first few years, you don't read every day, I did suffer the well of what the hell? What do we do next? And AI has engendered creativity and enthusiasm for new ideas. I understand that a lot of writers have aspects of writing they don't like. One of mine is I don't like to create really engaging universes before I start writing. I tend to find the universe. However, if the universe was created before, I have learned by using AI that it engenders explosions of dopamine hits on my creativity of, that's a genius idea. I can put that into the book. And so there are so many things that it facilitates. All the way up to other aspects, and so I think there's something for everyone in AI. If you choose not to use it, absolutely fine, but from the standpoint of going after a Penguin Random House without trying to get 5,000 employees, all of a sudden I see it as viable. Joanna Penn: Well, I think that's maybe what confuses people about you though, because you are an author, you are one of us, and you have your books that you've written yourself and with other people. And then you also have these audacious goals that you are competing with Penguin Random House. So this goal around 10,000 books in a year — which is a goal, not an actuality right now for sure — but is that the publishing head, not the Michael author head? Michael Anderle: Yeah, it is. Because I mean, one of the things, and let's talk about the publishing side head, and we spoke about these things. I think most people say, okay, that's 10,000 books in English. And it can be, I'm not saying it couldn't be, but I'm also saying, The whole thing I express is all stories from the company. And this isn't LMBPN by the way. LMBPN is strictly human first. 10,000 books can be all stories and all modalities Which means e-book, paperback, hardback. Then you go to audio, which can be synthetic audio, synthetic multicast audio. It can go to comic books, graphic novels. story scripts. It can go all modalities and all languages, all modalities everywhere, which means around the world all at once, which is obviously a digital manifestation. And so when you do that, even if you took 10,000 books and you divided it by five modalities, which be easy to accomplish with the ones I just announced, and 10 languages, which also easy to do, that's 200 books. 200 times, five times 10 is 10,000. And a lot of people don't want to either clue into

What is the AI-Assisted Artisan Author? How can we use AI tools in our creative and business processes while still keeping our humanity at the core of our books? As generative AI development continues apace and new possibilities emerge every week, the focus of AI discussions in the author community has been centered around productivity gains and high-volume output; copyright, plagiarism and piracy; and the fear of losing the artistic human aspect of being an author.  But there is much to be excited about if we can move past fear and doubt, and approach these tools with curiosity and a sense of wonder. We are only at the beginning of the opportunities of AI for wider society as well as for creativity and art, and it’s important that authors, writers, and other creatives be involved in order to shape the future as we want it to be. In this article, I’ll outline the concept of the AI-Assisted Artisan Author, which is how I intend to surf the wave of change ahead, rather than drown in the deluge. Today's show is sponsored by my wonderful patrons who fund my brain so I have time to think about and discuss these futurist topics impacting authors. If you support the show, you also get the extra monthly patron-only Q&A audio. You can support the show at www.patreon.com/thecreativepenn Joanna Penn writes non-fiction for authors and is an award-nominated, New York Times and USA Today bestselling thriller and dark fantasy author as J.F. Penn. She has sold almost a million books across 169 countries and 5 languages. She’s also an award-winning podcaster, creative entrepreneur, and international professional speaker. Her latest book is Pilgrimage: Lessons Learned from Solo Walking Three Ancient Ways. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below. Show Notes Acknowledge the risks and understand the human response to change How generative AI has made me re-examine my self-definition Adopt an AI-curious attitude What is an AI-Assisted Artisan Author (or A4 for short)?   Create beautiful books and products Double down on being human Write the books only you can write and include personal elements that can only come from you Foster connection and community with other humans Sell direct so readers connect you, the human, with your books (and other products) How to move forward You can find more future-focused episodes here. Acknowledge the risks and understand the human response to change I have been talking and writing about the possibilities of AI since 2016, when AlphaGo beat Lee Sodol in what many consider as the first creative AI move. I have covered the topic as it relates to authors regularly since then and even written a short book on the impact of AI on authors and publishing. I am the technology advisor to the Alliance of Independent Authors and helped formulate a submission on AI and copyright to the UK government in January 2022. I am an optimist and AI-positive, but I also acknowledge the many questions and issues humanity must work through. There are risks and dangers associated with AI, in the same way that there are with other transformative tools that humanity has developed, and many smart people are working on how to figure out the way ahead. Former head of Google Brain and co-founder of Coursera Dr. Andrew Ng, describes AI as “the new electricity.” Sundar Pichai, CEO of Google Alphabet, said that AI “is the most profound technology humanity is working on. More profound than fire, electricity, or anything we have done in the past.” Fire, electricity, and indeed the internet have huge benefits — and can also destroy lives. But we have adapted and they are an essential part of modern life. Do you want to live without fire, electricity, or the internet? These are Tools and Weapons: The Promise and Peril of the Digital Age, as covered by Brad Smith in his book, written before the emergence of generative AI.  Yes, there are risks — but there are also incredible opportunities. I focus on creativity, specifically writing here, but if you research any sector right now, you will see incredible potential emerging with AI tools.  Let’s face it, things are not all rosy and wonderful right now. Humanity has some huge challenges and we could use the help to solve issues that are way too complex for us to figure out. For example, DeepMind’s Alpha Fold is revolutionizing biology, which in turn will accelerate solutions for healthcare issues; and there are many applications for AI in helping to mitigate or even solve climate change [BCG], as well as re-imagine education [UNESCO] and other industries. Pick an area you’re interested in and research how AI is being investigated for future developments. Of course, there are also legal ramifications around fair use, copyright, and plagiarism, which may take years to work through. I covered these in more detail recently in my interview with intellectual property lawyer, Kathryn Goldman. But technology always emerges ahead of regulation, and the latter will come, in the same way that laws around driving and internet safety emerged after those technologies started to be used more widely.  People always resist technology. That is human nature.  In Build for Tomorrow, Jason Feifer gives many examples of how people have reacted to change. Bicycles were considered damaging to society, and books were considered dangerous for women. US Founding Father Thomas Jefferson even said that novels were “poison [that] infects the mind.”  Cars were known as ‘devil wagons,’ and “people on the side of the streets started throwing rocks at [those in cars]. Oftentimes, bystanders would yell, ‘Get a horse!’”  When I was growing up in the 80s, TV was rotting our brains and computer games caused violence in children. Now we live in a golden era for TV and the gaming industry is bigger than music and movie industries combined [Gamerhub]. In the creative sphere, Feifer reports that musicians initially resisted recorded music, seeing it as a threat to their live performances, but then pivoted into embracing it when they began to make money from recordings. As I write this in May 2023, there is controversy over Heart on my Sleeve, a viral hit song created with the AI-synthed voices of two human artists, with debates over the ramifications for copyright and fair use legal frameworks [The Verge].  But some artists are embracing the change, with musician Grimes saying on Twitter, “I'll split 50% royalties on any successful AI generated song that uses my voice.  Same deal as I would with any artist i collab with.  Feel free to use my voice without penalty.  I have no label and no legal bindings.” The development of photography might be the closest comparison to where writers are now. As The Guardian notes, “For 180 years, people have been asking the question: is photography art?” It uses a machine to capture an image, and you don’t have to learn the skills of drawing or painting with a brush to create a finished picture. Some considered photography cheating and unfair on those who take longer to create by hand. Since anyone can do it, it’s essentially worthless, and it certainly can’t be considered art. But now, of course, photography is considered an art form and people pay for beautiful photos to put on their walls. They visit galleries and exhibitions to see photos, and they buy photobooks and prints. The skill in photography is the choice of subject, the expert use of both the camera as a tool and the subsequent post-processing software, and the deeper human meaning behind the image. Obviously, some photos are not art. Some are functional, some are just for fun, some are personal, many are worthless. Nevertheless, photography remains and the argument that it’s cheating and unfair to those who paint or draw by hand has largely subsided. But photography is once again in flux. The winning image of the prestigious Sony World Photography Awards was later revealed to be created partially with AI. There is even a new word being adopted by some: synthography, defined as “the method of generating digital media synthetically using machine learning,” [Wikipedia] and the same arguments are being raised all over again. Technology moves on, and you get to choose how best to achieve your creative vision by utilising new tools, or remaining with existing methods.  But I know this goes deeper than semantics about what art is or is not. There is much more at stake. How generative AI has made me re-examine my self-definition When people ask what I do, I say, “I’m an author and a podcaster.” I write books and I record and publish audio, although I also do some professional speaking and teaching as well. Enough people pay me through multiple streams of income that I can make a living this way (thank you!) and I have been a full-time author entrepreneur since 2011.  This self-definition has worked for me — until just over a month ago, in March 2023, when Open AI released GPT4 (in the paid version of ChatGPT). I’ve been trying out various AI writing tools for several years and, while interesting and useful, nothing has blown me away in terms of quality. I have happily used many of the tools in various ways without having an existential moment. Earlier this year, I even used Sudowrite and other tools to help me write my short story, With a Demon’s Eye. But when I started co-writing with GPT4 (and it really does feel like co-writing), I had a moment of reckoning.  It is a step change from what has come before.  Based on my ideas and my structured prompting and using my own J.F. Penn fiction as examples to guide voice and tone, I was able to output wo

How can we build a creative life based on following our curiosity? What are some important attitudes to hold that will help us with a sustainable life and career? Kevin Kelly shares some Excellent Advice for Living. In the intro, author newsletter tips [BookBub]; Mark Dawson's 20+ year writing journey; Thoughts on 20Books Seville and London Book Fair with me and Orna Ross [Ask ALLi]; HarperCollins is testing AI-generated content, reported by Jane Friedman [The Hotsheet]. Today's show is sponsored by ProWritingAid, writing and editing software that goes way beyond just grammar and typo checking. With its detailed reports on how to improve your writing and integration with Scrivener, ProWritingAid will help you improve your book before you send it to an editor, agent or publisher. Check it out for free or get 25% off the premium edition at www.ProWritingAid.com/joanna Kevin Kelly is the New York Times bestselling author of multiple books, including The Inevitable, Cool Tools, and Vanishing Asia, as well as being a Technologist Senior Maverick at Wired Magazine and co-chair of the Long Now Foundation. His latest book Excellent Advice for Living: Wisdom I Wish I'd Known Earlier. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Following your curiosity for an interesting, long-term, project-based career Experiencing different cultures and the creative process Creating art as “imperfect beings” Letting your author voice emerge instead of finding it Reasons for optimism for writers with generative AI Why 1000 true fans is still relevant You can find Kevin Kelly at KK.org or on socials @Kevin2Kelly Header image generated by Joanna Penn on Midjourney. Transcript of Interview with Kevin Kelly Joanna: Kevin Kelly is the New York Times bestselling author of multiple books, including The Inevitable, Cool Tools, and Vanishing Asia, as well as being a Technologist Senior Maverick at Wired Magazine and co-chair of the Long Now Foundation. His latest book Excellent Advice for Living: Wisdom I Wish I'd Known Earlier. So welcome to the show, Kevin. Kevin: Oh, I'm really delighted to be here. I really appreciate you inviting me. Thank you. Joanna: Oh, no, I'm excited. And there is indeed a lot of excellent advice in the book. So I've pulled out some particular quotes for writers to explore further. And the first is: “Draw to discover what you see. Write to discover what you think.” What part has visual art and writing played in your life? How do you balance creation with consumption? Kevin: That's a great question. I, for some reason, have been a maker, which is what we call it now, all my life. I didn't call it that when I was growing up, I was just a kid who liked to make things, and not just little things, but larger things. So I made a model train layout with plywood with, you know, a little city and lights and things when I was probably 10ish, maybe. Then I went on to make a nature museum when I was 12. I found a book at the library about how to make a nature museum. And I was doing collections and making exhibits, and I went on to make other things like that. I don't know, it was just something in me that wanted to make stuff.  I got into art as a kid, and I almost went to art school after high school, which I should have done, but I didn't. So it's always been a part of how I see things. I eventually kind of gravitated to photography because it was a combination of my other love, which was science. So it's kind of technical and art at the same time. And when I started, you had to do the chemistry, and go into the darkroom, and do the magic chemistry, and so it's very technical. And that was very much a part of me. I would go out to photograph to see. I mean, there was something about doing the art that enabled me to see things. Partly, it was an excuse to see it, and partly, it was that act of trying to look and see. Then when I was drawing, I realized that most of the effort was actually to see the thing. It wasn't the hand, it was your eye trying to see something, and then you could transfer it to your hand.  Later on, when I started to write, it was the same thing. I don't have an idea, and then I try to express it. It's quite the opposite. I don't even know what I'm thinking. I don't know what my idea is until I try and write something, and that act of writing it kind of puts the idea into my head. It's very weird. It's sort of like I try to think what I know, and I realize I don't know, and I try to get somewhere. And that act of trying to write actually creates the idea, so that's what I meant by that. Joanna: Well, we call that discovery writing. That's what we call it. Kevin: I'm a discovery writer. Okay, I didn't know that. Thank you. Joanna: Some people in the writing community call them ‘pantsers.' And that is a very American word, obviously, because in England, pants is underwear. So we kind of adopted the word ‘discovery writer,' because you know, that's better than pants. Kevin: I don't get the pants reference. Joanna: Writing by the seat of your pants. Kevin: Ah, okay. I think discovery writing is more apt. That is definitely my style of writing. I don't write as much fiction, but I would even imagine I'd probably do the same when I write fiction. Joanna: Oh, good. It's interesting, because you talk there about almost changing your process over the years and changing the way you see and you learn to write by writing and figure out what you think. But I wondered how your writing process, in particular, has changed over the years because you've written some very different types of books. Like The Inevitable, I've got it here in hardback, and I quote it often. It's about technology, it's about art as well, but it is mainly about technology. And then Vanishing Asia, of course, is a photo book. And I wondered, how has your writing process changed? How do you decide on what book to write next because they're so diverse? Kevin: Yes, you're absolutely correct. The Vanishing Asia book, which you mentioned, does have 9000 captions. There are some words, even though there are 9000 images as well, but that was a matter of, you know, its labeling rather than creative writing. Although I had to condense a lot of information about a picture into a few words. I tend to write telegraphic, and as I've gone on it's become more important to me. That's one of the things happening with this Excellent Advice book, which was me trying to make it as telegraphic as possible. I somehow enjoy that process of trying to distill something down to as few possible words. I don't know whether that was my background editing. I'm a more natural editor than a writer, let me put it that way. My natural tendency is to edit. I'm comfortable editing. I am just in pain trying to write that first draft, and it's just excruciating.  I work with writers. So I work with writers who love to write. I don't love to write, I love to have written. And so I'm much more comfortable in that kind of distilling something down and removing words, rather than adding words or making up words. Over time, I'm not sure how I would say it's changed. So maybe, one, is that kind of appreciating the distillation process. It's a piece of advice which I put into the book, which is this idea that all professional writers get to where you have to generate lots of bad stuff, first drafts that you're going to throw away, but know that. And I didn't know that in the beginning. I didn't realize that you would do that. That seemed kind of like a waste, or a failure or something, that you would generate stuff that you would throw away, knowing that you're going to throw it away. I mean, that's the difference. And so now I understand that I'm just going to write a whole bunch of stuff that I'm just never going to use, and that's sort of the point of it. That took me a long time to understand that. And that's true for anything I make now. I just assume I'm going to get there by making prototypes, going to make different versions of it as I go along, knowing that I'm not going to save the initial ones, that I'm not going to hold on to them. That changed over time where I understood that. So it's much more about the process now, rather than about the artifact. Joanna: And with your photography, because I mean, you started taking pictures in Asia decades ago when digital photography was not as it is now. So now you can take millions of photos and then spend the time editing, but originally, you would have had to take fewer photos, I guess. So is that maybe part of why your process has changed because you do have this abundance? And that must make editing also a lot harder. Kevin: You're absolutely right. So when I started off 50 years ago, 1972, photographing in Taiwan, Japan, and I had precious rolls of film, which had 36 exposures in a roll. And the cost of that developing and buying the film, in today's dollars, is about $5. So imagine each time you clicked your camera phone it was $5. That really tends to focus what you're going to shoot at.  So that habit of really trying to sort of edit in the camera, they were calling it, where you spent much more time thinking and moving about and pretending you're photographing, but not actually photographing, that kind of slows you down. And that habit, I still maintained even as I went to digital of trying not to take a lot, and really trying this decisive moment idea of like waiting for the right moment and then taking as few as possible. I'm not the auto motor. There's a motor-driven mode in a lot of cameras where you just ‘click, click, click' and then later on you pick out the one that you like. I'm st

How can publicity form part of your book marketing strategy? How can you research the best media and craft a pitch or a press release that might get you and your book some attention? Why is publicity still useful in an age of pay-per-click direct advertising? Halima Khatun shares her valuable tips and experience. In the intro, Alliance of Independent Authors Indie Author Income Survey results; Experience of book to TV show [and previous episode, Johnny B Truant's creative pivots]; Michael Anderle expands on his AI-assisted goals [20Books To 50K Facebook]; Loop earplugs. Plus, Build for Tomorrow: An Action Plan for Embracing Change, Adapting Fast, and Future-Proofing your Career by Jason Feifer; The future of publishing is now on the Dialogue Doctor podcast; Content vs connection [Jay Acunzo on Twitter]; Why I'm focusing on being an AI-assisted artisan author; Death of an Author, from Pushkin Press. Today's show is sponsored by Draft2Digital, where you can get free ebook formatting, free distribution to multiple stores, and a host of other benefits. Get your free Author Marketing Guide at draft2digital.com/penn Halima Khatun is the award-winning author of romantic comedy novels, including The Secret Diary of an Arranged Marriage. Today we're talking about her nonfiction book, Priceless Publicity: How to get money-can't-buy media coverage for your business. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Halima's writing and PR journey Finding the “story behind the story” Pitching your story from different angles Balancing PR and protecting personal stories/privacy Tailoring your press release How to prepare for an interview Is PR worth it? You can find Halima at HalimaKhatun.co.uk Transcript of Interview with Halima Khatun Joanna: Halima Khatun is the award-winning author of romantic comedy novels, including The Secret Diary of an Arranged Marriage. Today we're talking about her nonfiction book, Priceless Publicity: How to get money-can't-buy media coverage for your business. So welcome to the show, Halima. Halima: Thank you for having me, Joanna. Joanna: I'm excited to talk about this topic. But first up— Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing, and also PR. Halima: I always wanted to write. There was never any other creative outlet or any other career option for me, even when I was growing up. So I sort of lived in libraries when I was younger. The funny story I always share is at the age of 12, I actually wrote a book, believe it or not. 60,000 words, a coming-of-age children's book, which I thought would be the next JK Rowling with a slash of Stand By Me for girls. It didn't do any of those things. I remember sending it to Penguin and the likes, thinking they're going to love it, they're going to bite my hand off. They didn't. And I was 12, and probably had a bit more work to do. As I grew up, I parked that idea because I always thought writing isn't really—being an author—isn't really a career, per se. You know, you get the people that make megabucks, and then there's everyone else. So I did what I thought was a sensible option. I still wanted to write, so I went into journalism. I did broadcast journalism for my post grad. And I did ITV and BBC, and that was great fun, but I quickly realized that it's less about the writing and more about getting stories short and snappy and to the point, and camera angles, etc. So I navigated to what they call is the dark side of PR, which basically is sitting on the other side of a journalist. So my job was then to bring stories to the media. So I'd be on the other side, and speaking to clients, trying to really find the story behind the story, if that makes sense. So I did a lot of healthcare PR. So for example, if I was speaking to a hospital consultant about a procedure, that might seem like quite a dry subject. So what I would do is I would find a case study, a patient who had the procedure, and talk about how their life had changed from how it was to how it is now. I'd go into the national media, the regional local broadcast media, and I really enjoyed it to the point that I still do some private consulting to this day. I then went freelance. So I set up as a limited company, and I had my own clients, with a view that—I laugh now—with a view that it'd be great when I think about having children, having a family, I could work around them. I had this notion that children nap, and then I had my babies. So I didn't quite do as much, but one of the beauties, and I think it came full circle, with my circumstances with not really working as much in PR purely because of time when I had my daughter, I revisited this idea of writing a book. The idea of The Secret Diary of an Arranged Marriage came to me because I found that nobody had really written about it. So there's already a fixed narrative in the media, often the term arranged marriage gets interchanged with forced marriage, it gets mixed up. And I thought, why don't I write something that's like the ‘brown Bridget Jones' and show the funny side, and the cringe-worthy side, and really give a nuanced picture. And people loved it. That was the best thing. So I didn't know anything about self-publishing. I assumed I'd go to agents and go the traditional route. I quickly realized I didn't want to spend years shopping it around and sending query letters. I kind of stumbled upon this whole amazing world of self-publishing, and how you can actually be in charge of your career and your author career. I learned the notion of you're not just an author, you're a business owner when you have books and you self-publish because you're in charge of every aspect of it. I really got my teeth into that. So that was one book, and then I did The Secret Diary of a Bengali Bridezilla, and then there was a third book, and now I'm working on the fourth. All while I raised my children. My daughter is now five and my son is two. And luckily, my husband has taken them out while I'm doing this podcast. You know, got to keep it safe. You don't know who's going to scream while I'm in the middle of talking! So the Priceless Publicity idea came about because firstly I thought, I've built my career in this. And one of the beauties of being able to do my own PR was I thought, well, I've done it for clients all these years, why not get some publicity for myself, for my books? It was a no brainer because one of the things, for me personally, was I had a little bit of impostor syndrome when I self-published. I think a lot of authors do because you don't have that gatekeeper and that sort of validation of, even if it's a small press, oh, it was published. You know, it was published by somebody else in the traditional route.  I didn't have that, and I thought, I really want it to stand up alongside traditionally published books. So I set about generating my own PR. So I wrote press releases around the angle of the story. I talked about my backstory being a mom at the time. My son was a newborn and I was nursing my daughter before he was born, writing the draft. And then I published it the month before he was born, which was crazy, in hindsight. The idea was that I had all these different angles to pull apart. And it did great. I generated lots of media coverage and regional coverage. I was on the BBC. BBC Radio, they had a whole topic around my pitch, which was around arranged marriages. Are they outdated? Are they misunderstood? And I was on a panel with other people.  I think for me, it sort of culminated in a full page spread in Good Housekeeping, where I was talking about my career as an author and how I kind of had this almost second career trying to write a book when I was much younger, gone into PR, and now doing this. So I just suddenly thought, when I was going through the self-publishing process and learning about all the different nuances, I saw a lot of parallels between independent authors and business owners, because we're constantly told, you have to think of it like a business for it to thrive.  I remember in my PR career, when I'd gone solo, when I'd become a limited company, one of the things I started doing was training up business owners because they wanted to learn about how to do their own publicity because they couldn't afford me on retainer. They couldn't afford a PR agency that charges four figures a month, five figures a month. They needed something that they could do themselves, in their own time, while running their business. So for me, it was almost a lightbulb moment. And I thought, I generated this great PR that I felt leveled me up with traditionally published authors, and I didn't have this hang up of kind of, “oh, it's self-published, people will think it's not as good.” Because if it was good enough for a journalist to publish stories about my books and me, it was good enough to stand up there and be read.  The other thing is I noticed that I was getting traction and recognition through PR. I know that sort of PR is seen as a bit woolly and a bit vague because you can't necessarily quantify it the way you can pay per click. However, it was one of those touchstones of marketing. We talk a lot about seven touchstones, and it was that sort of recognition and sort of planting that seed that you're out there, and you have a book that people started recognizing. I remember one of the reviews on The Secret Diary of an Arranged Marriage was someone saying, “I bought this as an impulse buy after reading about her in Good Housekeeping.” And I was like, well, it works, you know. And I thought more people need to do this because as authors, we juggle a lot of hats, and th

What are the most important aspects of becoming a successful publisher? Jon Barton talks about his lessons learned and how to avoid the pitfalls. In the intro, Amazon AWS Bedrock for generative AI; Impromptu: Amplifying our Humanity Through AI by Reid Hoffman and co-written with GPT4; reflections on the fantastic 20BooksSpain Seville conference; Ideas and execution by Hugh Howey; The Creator Economy course; AI Cover Design for Authors; Today's podcast sponsor is Findaway Voices, which gives you access to the world's largest network of audiobook sellers and everything you need to create and sell professional audiobooks. Take back your freedom. Choose your price, choose how you sell, choose how you distribute audio. Check it out at FindawayVoices.com. Jon Barton is the founder and managing director of the award-winning independent publisher Vertebrate Publishing, as well as the author of several bestselling mountain biking guides. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Challenges in publishing other people's works The ecosystem of Vertebrate Publishing Pivoting business models Sticking to a niche and why it works Tips for pitching to a publisher RRP royalty rate vs. net royalty rate Understanding contracts and seeking outside advice You can find Jon and Vertebrate Publishing at AdventureBooks.com Transcript of Interview with Jon Barton Joanna: Jon Barton is the founder and managing director of the award-winning independent publisher Vertebrate Publishing, as well as the author of several bestselling mountain biking guides. So welcome to the show, Jon. Jon: Hi, Jo. How goes it? Joanna: Good. I'm excited to talk to you today. First up, tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and publishing. Jon: Well, the one thing that's worth knowing about me is I've never had a CV and never been to a job interview, I'm older than I sound as well. I discovered rock climbing when I was probably 13 or 14, and that's pretty much all I did until I was about 30. In fact, when I met my wife and I was about 31, 32, and she just presumed I'd been working for a decade and had savings and houses and all the rest of it, like normal people had. Then she discovered later on in life that a hadn't, I'd just been going around the world climbing. So I was very much addicted to climbing. I was a professional climber, but that probably suggests I made money out of it, which I didn't. And then I used to do a few odd jobs, sort of construction type jobs, and we used to clean windows of skyscrapers and jobs like that before it became sort of more professional to earn money. And I used to find that fairly soul-destroying.  I think it was on some US trips, where people were very interested in the sort of cultural history of British climbing. And people were asking us about Lady Diana, and the Queen and all sorts of weird stuff in some of the climbing areas we were. But they were very interested in these sort of almost legendary stories of British climbers. I sort of inadvertently became the British correspondent in some American climbing publications, and just sending over news items. I realized I quite liked writing, and I quite liked recording things and documenting things in a roundabout way.  Then the other thing that happened is — I was doing a lot of mountain biking in the UK Peak District where I live, and the guidebooks that were available didn't reflect the kind of people you see out on the trails. So the guidebooks would be, you know, the traditional routes, it would be some pictures of men in out-of-date gear. And what I was seeing was young people, women out there cycling, latest gear, latest bikes, going into some fairly—I mean the Peak District is not remote—but some fairly challenging terrain and pushing themselves. So I decided to write a guidebook to what I saw, and it sold really well. And that's where the publishing business came from.  We have now 300-400 titles. And ironically, our Peak District Mountain Biking Guide, which was published 18 years ago, is still one of our bestselling books. I don't know how much. So yeah, that's really it. So it came from my climbing roots.  The other thing I used to do when I sort of hit my 30s and realized I needed to make money, I worked in a graphic design business, which is what this business eventually became. We used to make all of our money out of selling more stuff to people. So we design them a logo, but then we'd sell them stationery, and we'd sell them branded T-shirts and plastic pens, endless plastic pens with logos on.  I was always a bit uncomfortable with this idea that I was just putting more stuff in the world. And the more stuff I can persuade somebody to have, the more money we would make. I didn't really like it, it didn't sit very comfortably. When we published books, I felt I was adding something to the world that people were getting something from and would keep and treasure. Maybe not treasure all of our books, but I found it a much more wholesome thing. That's where it all started from. Joanna: That's lovely. Obviously, book lovers are listening as well. So fascinating, you said at the beginning that you never had a job interview, and you're basically an independent-minded chap, and a lot of independent people listening as well. So I really love that you've come into it this way. But it's a really big difference to go from writing and publishing your own book to publishing other people. How did you transition into deciding to publish other people? What have been some of those challenges? Jon: Well, so we did—I did my first book. I always use the word “we” because I can't spell or I can't do layout or anything. So I've always been very good at working with people who are brighter and cleverer than me that can do stuff, which I think is one key thing. So the success of the first Mountain Biking was great. And then I had somebody I knew who did a lot of mountain biking down south of England, so I said, “Well, this is the template, this is the format we've done. Can you do it for the south of England?” So they did do that. We learned—this might sound daft—we learned that people in the north of England aren't interested in buying a guidebook to the south of England. Who knew?! So all of a sudden we can had to get wise in how we were going to sell books that weren't on our backyard. We had to learn marketing and distribution and sales. Then sort of going back to this idea, this American idea, that a lot of stories do get lost. Particularly niche sports, I'm from a rock climbing mountaineering background, and some of the stories to us seemed quite normal, you know, 10 people living in a room because we didn't earn any money and we just needed to climb, and living out of dumpsters when food gets thrown away at the end of the day in a supermarket, you can go and retrieve it.  I think on one trip to Australia, I lived for 800 pounds for six months. I've told my wife when we go away for the weekend, and we spend 800 pounds just on the hotel bills for the weekend, I remind her we could have gone to Australia for six months. Joanna: You were in your 20s. It was a different time! Jon: I was younger, and I could live on out-of-date pasta for days. So we discovered that these stories, I mean, the one about the dumpsters is possibly not very interesting, but the stories would get lost. And so I tracked down the people that had made these stories, have lived these lives, and persuaded them to write books. So we produced mountaineering books, climbing books, and running books, just by documenting these stories. And you then start attracting submissions, and one thing and another. We made huge, huge numbers of mistakes because I found it very hard to say ‘no.' And some things I would find interesting, might not necessarily be interesting to the wider public. Joanna: Well, let's get further into that then because obviously my listeners, we are mainly authors, but many of us are also publishers. So I publish my own books, obviously people listening might publish their own books. Some people are starting micro publishers, almost like yourself. Maybe a decade or two ago, someone will say, oh, can I publish this book or somebody has died and left their copyright to someone. So what's emerging in the independent author community is a whole load of micro presses, like there were in the beginning. I guess that's how publishing was until all the big conglomerates. So you mentioned there, mistakes. One of them you said was trying to sell stuff for the north of England to the south and vice versa. So geographically specific books, I guess.  What were some of the other mistakes or lessons learned? Jon: I think the stepping out of our niche. Just because we can produce the best climbing book or the best cycling book that the world has ever seen, it really doesn't mean we can produce a good children's book or a good fiction book. Whenever we stray out of our niche, we have a failure. And I think failure is the wrong word in publishing, I think in traditional publishing, a better way of saying it is you just printed too many. But certainly, when we step out of our niche, that can be a failure. We will have a loyal readership and a loyal base, like many independent authors will have, and we put a lot of time and effort into managing that and growing that and looking after that. But I think expecting them and wanting them to buy books that aren't the sort of thing we publish is not a good tactic. And the other thing we learned is that people like local guidebooks, they don't like national guidebooks. That'

You cannot see many of the problems with your own writing, as you are so close to the manuscript. ProWritingAid can help you self-edit your work before you take it on to a human editor, so they can focus on the bigger issues. In this episode, Chris Banks, the CEO of ProWritingAid talks about how developments in AI have added functionality to the software to help writers even more. If you'd like to support the podcast, you can use my affiliate link, www.TheCreativePenn.com/prowritingaid and check out my tutorial here. Or you can just go to ProWritingAid.com. Chris Banks is the CEO and founder of ProWritingAid, which has over 1.5 million users worldwide. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below. Show Notes The key benefits of ProWritingAid The evolution of grammar tools as technology accelerates Skepticism about using AI tools in your writing and how to overcome it AI tools as a creative companion Can using AI tools lead to plagiarism? Problems with tools that ‘detect' AI-generated writing Why this is such an exciting time for creatives You can find Chris at ProWritingAid.com Transcript of Interview with Chris Banks Chris: Chris Banks is the CEO and founder of ProWritingAid, which has over 1.5 million users worldwide, including myself. So welcome back to the show, Chris. Thanks, Joanna. It's a pleasure to be here. Joanna: Oh, yes. We were talking before about how we're so excited right now about all the things going on. But before we look forward— Let's just tell people a bit more about ProWritingAid. So if anyone doesn't know it, can you give us just a brief overview of some of the key benefits? Chris: Yes. Well, the tool basically is designed to make writing fun and easy. We try and do all of the heavy lifting and take away the difficult bits of writing. So all of the kind of boring bits that you might struggle with, all of the things that take a lot of time and don't bring you any joy, ProWritingAid is designed to help you get rid of those and to make your life a lot easier and fun. Joanna: And just some of the specifics. So I use it for editing, and it does things like pick up my terrible comma usage and some of my passive language, which I always use. Anything else that you think is commonly used by authors? Chris: Yes, I think I designed the tool to help myself and to criticize myself, to find all of the mistakes that I was making when I was writing. I think when you're doing a first draft, I always think of the first draft as a  quote by Shannon Hale, where “you're just piling up sand so that later you can build castles out of it.” So in the first draft, you're just trying to get everything down, all of your thoughts, all of your stories. It's about flow. Then when you move into the editing phase afterwards, that's about constructing things and building these beautiful castles. So what ProWritingAid does is it helps you with that construction process. It goes through your first draft and shows you all of the areas that you need to focus on in order to take that first draft to a publishable manuscript. So that's things like, have you overused passive voice? Have you used too many cliches? Have you used repetitive sentence structures? Grammar mistakes, common mistakes, things along the lines of have you shown rather than told, in terms of like emotions or other areas. The idea is to take all of the advice that you would read in books on writing, and actually apply that to your own writing and show you where you need to focus yourself to get the most out of your time. Joanna: And actually, what you just said there is one of the criticisms that I have had, because obviously, I love ProWritingAid, I use it. I have a video tutorial, and someone posted a comment which basically said something along the lines of, “You're lazy. You should learn all these rules yourself.” I mean, what do you think about that? Should we be reading all those books and learning all the rules and applying them? Are we losing something by using a tool to help us with writing? Chris: I think you probably have read all of those books, Joanna! Joanna: I have. Yes! Chris: I certainly read a lot of them, but I can't remember them. And I think what a lot of people struggle with is actually taking that advice that you get in books and actually applying it to your own writing. Because often it's quite abstract, we don't really see the connection. So that's what we're trying to do. I always think, going back to that metaphor of building castles, right? When you're constructing something, you have a bunch of tools that help you construct it. If you were going to build a house, you would have like a digger, and a crane, and a dumper truck that would make building your house an awful lot easier. Yes, you could do it without those things, but it will take you an awful lot longer, and it would be much less enjoyable. So ProWritingAid is a tool, like any of those things, that just makes the whole process a lot easier and a lot faster. Joanna: And actually, I learn something every time I use it. Like as you say, you might know a rule in your head, like ‘oh yes, I should not use repetitive words' or something, but then you can't see it on the screen, and you can't see it on the page necessarily. I find that I always learn something, and then of course, hopefully, the next time around, you will get a better score because ProWritingAid gives you a score for your chapters. My goal is to try and get it into the higher level score before I even use the tool. So you can challenge yourself to become a better writer. I definitely find it helps me with that. Chris: Yes, I think that is one of the benefits of the tool as well, is that it gives you that objective eye. I think everybody needs an objective eye. If you think of like the best sports people in the world, they have a coach who watches them doing their sports and gives them advice on how to do it better. They can't do that themselves because they can't see themselves doing the sport. So ProWritingAid is giving people that objective eye. Yes, it would be great if everybody could afford to have their own personal writing coach who reviewed everything that they ever wrote and gave them feedback, but that's beyond the means of most people. So what we're trying to do is give that to everybody, so that you can get that first objective eye. Maybe then you use an editor to get another objective eye, but by using ProWritingAid first, you're getting a lot more value from your editor, and there'll be certainly doing the part of their job that they prefer doing. Joanna: I imagine a lot of editors do use these tools. It's not like they print out manuscripts and hand-edit everything. And maybe some people still do that, but everyone uses tools as part of their job. Chris: Exactly. And a lot of editors actually recommend ProWritingAid to their clients, that they use ProWritingAid before they send it to the editor, specifically because you'll get a lot more value out of your editor if they're not correcting simple grammar mistakes and showing you the simpler things. But they're really helping you with things like your tone of voice, your plot holes, characterization, those kinds of things. You'll be a lot happier because you feel like you're getting more from your editor. Your editor will be happier because they're not correcting simple things. Everybody wins. Joanna: Absolutely. It takes us further. It enhances us. We should be returning to that as a thought. You were last on the show in April 2021, so almost—we're recording this in the middle of March—so April 2021, two years ago, when we first talked. What has changed for ProWritingAid, in the software, but also with the company as well? Did the pandemic, which was still in sort of full flow then, change things? What have you noticed over the last few years? Chris: Well, I think there's been a seismic shift in everything over the last few years. I mean, for ProWritingAid as a company, I think at the beginning of the pandemic, we saw a lot of people going online. So writing, in general, became a lot more important. A lot of communication became through the written word, through documents.  I think a lot of people realized actually how effective communicating through writing and putting your thoughts down on paper can be. Because I think writing is a really powerful tool for helping you crystallize your thoughts in a much better way than you can just in your head. Obviously, I think for us as a company, a lot of people were stuck at home and started writing novels or memoirs or whatever they wanted to work on. So things got really busy. And then more recently, obviously, I think the technology has advanced massively, even in the last six months. You've probably all heard of ChatGPT. The underlying technology of that is something called transformers, which is something that we used for several years in our grammar checking but has suddenly taken a huge leap forward. We are now using that, and we can do things now that six months ago would literally have been impossible. It's very, very exciting time from a technology perspective as well. Joanna: Well, let's split that into two things. So first of all, you said that ProWritingAid has been using the transformer technology. And obviously we don't need to go into technical details, but I mean, so ProWritingAid, it's not new that you're using AI. So if we look sort of backward— How have you been using AI in ProWritingAid? Chris: Yes. So I mean, pretty much from the start we've used AI. Language, on the surface, it seems quite simple. But underneath, it's incredibly complicated. I

How can we bring a place alive in our writing? How can we tackle the challenges of writing different types of books at different times in our writing career? Merryn Glover talks about her experience in this episode. In the intro, Kobo launches Kobo Plus in the US and UK; Amazon is closing Book Depository; Amazon layoffs in devices and books; end of Kindle newsstand; Moonshots and Mindsets with Emad Mostaque; Futureproof: 9 Rules for Humans in the Age of Automation by Kevin Roose. Plus, the tools and services I use in my author business; Get 15% off any of my books, digital or print, bundles or individual books — valid for one purchase per customer — use PODCAST15 at checkout on CreativePennBooks.com. This podcast is sponsored by Kobo Writing Life, which helps authors self-publish and reach readers in global markets through the Kobo eco-system. You can also subscribe to the Kobo Writing Life podcast for interviews with successful indie authors.  Merryn Glover is the award-winning author of historical fiction and narrative nonfiction nature books, as well as writing plays and radio drama. Her latest book is The Hidden Fires: A Cairngorms Journey with Nan Shepherd. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Writing a book based on someone else's work How Nan Shepherd's books started in obscurity and later became well-known Hallmarks of the nature writing genre Legality of using someone else's name and works in your novel, copyright, and permissions needed The process of writing a sense of place Radio drama and dramatic adaptations of written works How to deal with a failed publisher You can find Merryn at MerrynGlover.com or on Twitter @MerrynGlover Transcript of Interview with Merryn Glover Joanna: Merryn Glover is the award-winning author of historical fiction and narrative nonfiction nature books, as well as writing plays and radio drama. Her latest book is The Hidden Fires: A Cairngorms Journey with Nan Shepherd. So welcome to the show, Merryn. Merryn: Thank you, Joanna. It's just a real joy to be here to chat with you today. Joanna: This is a fascinating topic. But first up— Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and publishing. Merryn: Well, like probably most of your listeners, I have loved words since I was very little. I love books, reading. I grew up in South Asia, and Nepal, and India, and Pakistan. My parents were working in linguistics and literacy, so being surrounded by other languages all the time, I guess that really added to the sense of love of words and communication and language. I was always talking to myself as a child. And I think as I've grown up and become a writer, it's just the adult version of talking to yourself in lots of ways. I wanted more siblings, I'm the youngest of two, and my parents didn't comply. So I had to invent all of the other 10 children in my family to keep entertained. So, I just always loved stories, but I'm also really fascinated by inhabiting experiences beyond my own. So I think that is a big part of where my writing has come from. I went to university in Australia, and I did English drama and dance there. Part of the drama course there, we were always devising material, making up plays and shows and things like that. So in a sense, that kind of led to my first major piece of writing work, which was a stage play after I'd finished university. But that actually came out of doing a lot of reminiscence work with elderly people living with dementia and capturing a lot of their life stories. That became the ground of this first play, because it was about a woman with dementia and her sister who cares for her.  That was a stage play initially, but then it was adapted for BBC Radio Scotland. And so the plays that I went on to write after that were all radio plays. And so, that was kind of the first sort of major piece of writing that went out there.  Then I did one of those correspondence courses in writing that you can get, shows how old I am because it was in the days when you literally had to type out your work and send it off to the tutor and then they would send it back. I was back working in Kathmandu at the time, so it was Air Mail. That would take weeks to hear back from the tutor.  The early phases of that course were journalism. So then I had some little articles in The Guardian Weekly, Letter from Nepal and things like that, and a few other pieces of journalism that came out of doing that course. It was really valuable, but it also made me realize that what I loved writing was more imaginative material, was the stories, the stuff that I wanted to make up from my head.  So that led to my next kind of major project, which was a series of short stories set in Nepal. Most of them have been as individuals, published in anthologies, or competitions or broadcast on the radio. And I think at some point, I would love to bring out the collection of that early set of stories. So that was the early stages. And then I went on to write novels. And now it's this nonfiction book, The Hidden Fires: A Cairngorms Journey with Nan Shepherd. Joanna: I love this. So you're not sticking within a genre at all. You've basically done almost everything. I mean, that's brilliant. Because look, to be honest, this is the creative process, right? It's, I'm interested in this, I'm going to write this, and I'm going to see where it goes, and that it's unfolded this way. But tell us, why did you write The Hidden Fires? Because for me, it seems it's related to the Nan Shepherd book, and some people might not have heard of her. What drew you to Nan Shepherd? Why write a book that is based so much on someone else's work? Merryn: Sure. So I guess the simple first answer to the question is because my publisher of my last novel invited me to submit a proposal for this book. So to fill in some background for the listeners, Nan Shepherd was an author from Aberdeen. She was publishing novels and poetry in the late 1920s, early 30s. She was a very recognized figure in the Scottish Literary Renaissance at the time, a modernist author. She was very well respected back then. Some of the reviews compared her with Virginia Woolf, she would be reviewed over in America as well as here.  Then there was this period of a long time when she didn't publish any more books and she kind of fell out of recognition beyond university literature departments. But she's most famous now for her nonfiction book, The Living Mountain, which is about the Cairngorm Mountains in the Highlands of Scotland. She's been a hill walker and a lover of mountains since childhood, but she wrote most of that book during the Second World War.  Then post war, she sent off one query letter to a publisher about it, who declined to even see the manuscript. She put it away in a drawer for 30 years, and then eventually in 1977 when she was 84, she took it back out, reread it, and then she self-published it by paying for a print run of 3000 copies to Aberdeen University Press. Because at the time, they were actually printers, rather than taking on publishing costs themselves. So that's something a lot of people don't necessarily realize, is that she did actually self-publish it to begin with. But she wasn't very good at marketing and promotion, and by the time she died four years later, there were hundreds of copies still sitting in boxes. She probably had no premonition of what would become of them, because it's now been translated into over 16 languages, sold millions of copies, and has spurned countless works in response, from academic papers, to art exhibitions, musical albums, dance productions, and of course, more books like mine. So for me, I guess I responded to my publisher's invitation initially by really thinking about it, because she's so well respected internationally, but particularly in Scotland, like the Royal Bank of Scotland five-pound note has her face on it. You know, in a way, it's kind of daunting to respond to somebody like her, to her writing, and particularly to such a well-loved and famous book. I felt there was really an interesting vein there to follow, and that was the very unique way in which my life intersects with hers. In that we have some things in common, and we're both women walking and riding in the Cairngorms area, which is where I now live. We both loved mountains since childhood, but I come to these ones from a very different background because my childhood mountains were the Himalayas. And also I'm now writing 70 years later and a lot has changed in this area and also for women being in the outdoors. So my book just charts very different routes into the same place and looks at the ways in which I, in contrast to her having been so earthed in this area in Aberdeenshire and then in the Cairngorms, how I also can come to this place and find a sense of home and a sense of belonging. And in her kind of kindred spirit across time, in what sort of emerged as a conversation between us. So it became a real sort of adventure in itself, to not just follow her, but to kind of talk with her across time. Joanna: A couple of things to follow up on that. So first of all, you said she self-published at age 84, and then she died, and then the book got out there. So how did it get out there? Was it a child or a relation who got it out there? Or was it just, you know, somebody stumbled across it? Merryn: Well, she had given away a lot of copies. It was reviewed in a few places, and well-reviewed, but I guess it landed fairly quietly because she hadn't been prominent as an author for a fair chunk of time at that point. So there wasn't great fanfare and noise. And I guess beca

As generative AI tools continue to expand the possibilities for creators, what does this mean for aspects of copyright? Intellectual property lawyer, Kathryn Goldman, talks about the possible ramifications. In the intro, Ben's Bites newsletter, Microsoft Co-Pilot for Office tools [The Verge]; Canva Create AI-powered design tools; Adobe Firefly for generative images; OpenAI ChatGPT Plugins including Shopify; Examples of people using ChatGPT in normal life [Hard Fork]; Sam Altman on Lex Fridman podcast. Plus, US AI copyright guidance; Human Artistry Campaign; New rules of publishing [Becca Syme]; Tsunami of crap + double down on being human; Generating fiction with GPT-4 [Medium]; Pause giant AI experiments letter; The age of AI has begun [Bill Gates]; This podcast is sponsored by Written Word Media, which makes book marketing a breeze by offering quick, easy and effective ways for authors to promote their books. You can also subscribe to the Written Word Media email newsletter for book marketing tips. Kathryn Goldman is a copyright and trademark attorney and has worked in intellectual property for over 30 years. She runs CreativeLawCenter.com, which offers resources, workshops, and advice for creative professionals, including authors, artists, designers, and more. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below. Show Notes The perils and promise of AI in creative works Some of the legal cases against aspects of generative AI [TechCrunch, Lawfare] What is fair use? What is transformative? The US Copyright Office's guide to AI usage Issues around making money from AI-generated work Could AI copyright laws be retroactively applied? Authors Guild model contract excluding AI training usage You can find Kathryn Goldman at CreativeLawCenter.com or on Twitter @KathrynGoldman Header image generated by Joanna Penn on Midjourney. Transcript of Interview with Kathryn Goldman Joanna: Kathryn Goldman is a copyright and trademark attorney and has worked in intellectual property for over 30 years. She runs CreativeLawCenter.com, which offers resources, workshops, and advice for creative professionals, including authors, artists, designers, and more. So welcome back to the show, Kathryn. Kathryn: Oh, thank you, Joanna. I am so happy to be here again. Joanna: This is going to be a very popular episode. We're just going to jump straight in. So you have been running workshops on AI and Your Creative Work: Perils and Promise. What sparked your interest in the impact of AI? And why is it important for authors to engage? Kathryn: Well, I've always been a bit of a technology nerd. I'm not an early adopter, like you. I'm more in the second wave of adoption. Back in the day, when computers first came out, I didn't ask my parents for a Commodore 64, I asked them for a Trash-80. So I'm definitely second-generation, but I've been in the game ever since.  I learned how to program very early on. And then I started building databases, and then websites, and you know, so whatever comes along, I kind of dip my toe in. And now of course, I represent a lot of creative professionals, artists, writers, photographers, and others. When Midjourney and Stability launched last year, I began receiving emails from my clients, and from members of the Creative Law Center, asking all kinds of questions like, “Can they do this? Is this legal? How can I protect my work?” And so I jumped in, I had to dig in. So AI has been around for a while, but with Midjourney, and Stability, and ChatGPT, some of my clients, or lots of them, felt that their livelihoods were at risk. So we needed to get to the bottom of this. It turns out that the job of lawyers is also in jeopardy. A lawsuit was just filed this week against a company called DoNotPay.com. And it uses AI to help people defend themselves in court from things like traffic tickets. You put these glasses on, and the glasses listen to what's going on in the courtroom, to the prosecutor and to the judge, and they feed you answers, how you're supposed to answer these questions. So yeah, lawyers are at risk, too. So I got involved in order to answer these questions about what's happening to our livelihoods. Joanna: Yes, I had heard of DoNotPay. And of course, you're absolutely worth every penny, but lawyers can be pricey. And so you can see, I've had a look at DoNotPay, and like you said, they can generate these letters and all of this kind of thing. I've seen GPT-4 do tax returns and build websites, and all of this is in the demo of the recent GPT-4. And so it's really interesting, isn't it? And of course, the other thing we should say, we're recording this on Friday 17th of March 2023. And GPT-4 came out this week, Google launched their Bard AI, Facebook just put out another one today. I mean, this is accelerating, and we're really at the beginning. So are you afraid? You said the perils and promise of AI, so it seems like you're balancing both. Kathryn: Well, isn't that the job of a lawyer. Am I afraid? No, I personally am not afraid. I mean, I've been in this business for a long time, and so I have a very stable book of business. So I don't fear for my personal job, but I think this represents a sea change. Right? We are going to lose a lot of professions, we're going to lose a lot of jobs, but there are going to be new jobs created necessarily.  So there's one job listing that was sent to me by one of my clients for a prompt engineer and librarian. Somebody who can use, and this is still on GPT-3 because this is an old listing, somebody who can prompt these AI machines to give the output that is needed for whatever the business is. And they list the criteria for this job, you'd be a good fit if you have a creative hacker spirit and love solving puzzles, and they go through all these issues. They're offering between $175,000 – $330,000 a year. Joanna: Everyone's going to need one! I mean, you're completely right. Prompt engineer is a new job. I love ‘creative hacker.' I feel like that is also a job description. Kathryn: Yeah, creative, let's say, legal hacker. And therein lies the problem, right? What is legal about all of this that is going on? So do I have any fear about it? Not personally. I believe that there's going to be a loss of certain jobs. I think that folks who, you know, I don't want to say it, but I'm going to say it, those who are mediocre at their jobs are going to be replaced in certain categories. Those who are really good at it, are going to become the folks who use these AI platforms or these machines as tools to help them get better. Joanna: Although I would also say that I think there will be new types of people. And this is happening in the art community, there might be someone who's a mediocre artist as a painter, but they can be a hell of a prompt engineer. They can potentially do a much better job now than someone who originally was painting a picture, for example. So I think what is excellent or what is mediocre is also going to change. So I think let's put a pin in it and say things are changing. Let's get into the legal side because that's what we're talking about today. So let's start with this training data. So you mentioned Stability AI, there's a court case about that. [TechCrunch overview of court cases] And the issue seems to be— Is it fair use to train models with data? Is the work transformative? So what are your thoughts on this question? Kathryn: Okay, so the notion of fair use has to be addressed on a case-by-case basis, right? It's a case-by-case defense. And so when you are looking at fair use, the first thing you have—so it's a defense, right, so there is infringement. So first, you have to determine that the AI platform had access to the protected work. All right, so let's assume that for a moment. And then you have to put the two works, the original work and the output from the AI, side by side. Are they substantially similar? How much of the original work was taken? Was it just enough as necessary to send the message? And I'm using air quotes, I know you can't see me. But the message, what is the message that AI is sending? Or was the message the input from the prompter? Okay, so first, you're going to have this— Is there infringement? And then if there is infringement, was it fair use? So the Getty case, which we'll talk about in a minute, is probably going to get to this issue. Is it fair use to scrape all these images and then use them to create something else? Is that something else going to be substantially similar? Or is it going to be new and different? And I have seen examples of both. I've seen substantially similar. [Copyright Alliance round-up with links to all the cases.] In fact, in the Getty case, they have in their exhibits, examples of identical reproductions of something that's in their database. Okay, that's going to be infringement. That's not going to be fair use. On the other hand, there are examples of things produced by generative AI that don't look anything like what's in the database that they've trained on, as far as we know. The bottom line is the database on which the AI has been trained, is really a great big black box, isn't it? We don't know for sure what it's been trained on. Joanna: This is so interesting, though, because I just want to assume and I'm not saying this is going to happen, and obviously we're talking at a time when there really is no legal final word on any of this. It's all up in the air. But essentially, Getty — they are not trying to shut down the technology, the idea of large language models, large image models. In fact, they own iStockPhoto, and they're look

My Kickstarter campaign for my travel memoir, Pilgrimage, funded within minutes and raised over £26,000 (over US$31,000) for a niche book in a new market. In this episode, I share my lessons learned and tips for a successful campaign. In the intro, I mention the 6 Figure Author Podcast, The Writers Well Podcast, and Reid Hoffman's new Possible podcast. Today's show is sponsored by ProWritingAid, writing and editing software that goes way beyond just grammar and typo checking. With its detailed reports on how to improve your writing and integration with Scrivener, ProWritingAid will help you improve your book before you send it to an editor, agent or publisher. Check it out for free or get 25% off the premium edition at www.ProWritingAid.com/joanna Joanna Penn writes non-fiction for authors and is an award-nominated, New York Times and USA Today bestselling thriller and dark fantasy author as J.F. Penn. She’s also an award-winning podcaster, creative entrepreneur, and international professional speaker. Her latest book is Pilgrimage: Lessons Learned from Solo Walking Three Ancient Ways. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below. Show notes: Overview of the Pilgrimage campaign including rewards, add-ons, and the result Why Kickstarter for this project, and why now for me Tips for success: Learn about the platform beforehand. It is a new ecosystem for authors and different from those we are used to Prepare to face your fears The importance of getting your costs right in terms of production and international shipping Set aside more time than you need How did I market the campaign? Was it worth it? Will I do another Kickstarter campaign? What happens to Pilgrimage now? If you want to stay in touch, sign up for my free Author Blueprint here, subscribe to The Creative Penn podcast on your favorite app, or follow me on social media. Twitter Facebook Instagram LinkedIn YouTube Goodreads Patreon Pinterest An overview of the Pilgrimage Kickstarter campaign I launched my first Kickstarter campaign on 22 January 2023, for my travel memoir, Pilgrimage: Lessons Learned from Solo Walking Three Ancient Ways. The campaign finished after 14 days on 6 February 2023 with £25,771 (around US$31K) funded from 692 backers.  My initial target was £1000. I was afraid of failure and not even making that much, plus this book falls between my existing audiences. It is not a how-to book for authors like my other books as Joanna Penn, and it is not fiction — thriller, dark fantasy, or crime — as J.F. Penn. It was my first memoir, and also about solo walking pilgrimages, which is hardly a mainstream topic! However, the campaign funded within minutes and it made over £5000 within the first 24 hours. It ended up as 2577% funded at £25,771. THANK YOU to everyone who supported the campaign. You are amazing and I hope you love the book! Here’s a graph of the funding and how it went up day by day. Pilgrimage kickstarter funding progress over the campaign It went up more steeply at the beginning and then leveled off as expected. Kickstarter has a super useful dashboard view with reporting. Given how much work the campaign was, I am happy with the two-week period. I don’t think I could have sustained the marketing effort any longer. What were the different pledge levels and how popular were they? The different pledge levels were: No reward, just support for those who wanted to back me but didn't want the book Pilgrimage digital rewards — ebook, audiobook, pdf workbook, digital bundle Ebook — delivered by Bookfunnel, read on any device Audiobook — narrated by me, delivered by Bookfunnel, listen on any device Digital bundle — includes ebook, audiobook, and digital workbook Special edition paperback — this edition with the yellow banner and color interior photos is only available in the Kickstarter and also for sale on my store, CreativePennBooks.com. The paperback version for sale on Amazon and Ingram has a plain B&W interior. Large print paperback — this edition will be available on all the usual stores Special edition hardback, signed or unsigned. This edition has a fly leaf cover, silver foil, and interior color photos. Only available in the Kickstarter and also for sale on my store, CreativePennBooks.com. I will not be doing a hardback through Amazon & Ingram, as the quality is not as good as Bookvault. If you find it for sale elsewhere, then it is a secondhand copy. Color interior pages from Pilgrimage Hardback bundle — included signed hardback, spiral-bound workbook, ebook, audiobook, and PDF workbook Writing Setting Course bundle — included Writing Setting course, and everything in the hardback bundle Consulting bundle — 90 min zoom consulting call, plus everything in Writing Setting course bundle. Limited to 10. I also included Add-Ons so people could buy extra editions, or other high-value bundles for my non-fiction and fiction These included any of the main editions as extra copies as well as the spiral-bound Pilgrimage Workbook, PDF digital Pilgrimage Workbook, and the Writing Setting Course. I also included bundles for my other books: How to Write Non-Fiction bundle, How to Write a Novel bundle, Mapwalker dark fantasy Trilogy bundle, Brooke & Daniel Crime Thriller Trilogy bundle, and the ARKANE Thriller 12-book ebook bundle. You can now get all of these on my Bundle page on CreativePennBooks.com in ebook and paperback, and I'm adding audio bundles as well. This graph shows the pledge levels and the amount of money each level brought in. bar chart showing income by reward level The signed hardback, as expected, was the biggest driver of revenue, but that figure also includes shipping costs. The Large Print edition was not very popular, but I think it’s important to include for accessibility reasons. I offered the course on Writing Setting and Sense of Place because I was teaching it in Colorado Springs at the Superstars conference, but I hadn’t prepared it in advance. While I intend to offer courses as part of future projects, I would prepare them in advance next time, as creating this took a lot more time than anticipated after the campaign finished. I offered 5 consulting sessions initially, but the level sold out straight away, so I raised it to 10, the maximum I want to offer. I will deliver them over the next year. It was well worth offering all the digital bundles, including the self-help writing and the fiction bundles, as they provided extra revenue during the campaign and were of better value than buying individually on the usual stores. I’m going to add a lot more bundles to my Shopify store, CreativePennBooks.com in the coming weeks. How did I do fulfillment? I used Bookfunnel to deliver all ebooks and audiobooks, as per usual with my direct sales. I used Teachable for the Writing Setting and Sense of Place course, which is the service I have been using for years now. I created a coupon for 100% off and sent it to the backers at that level. I used Bookvault.app for the print editions, and they also do the print-on-demand editions for my Shopify store, CreativePennBooks.com. One of my nightmare scenarios was selling a load of hardback books and then having to spend weeks packaging them up and shipping them around the world. As much as I wanted to do signed hardbacks, that was a real sticking point, and I even considered not doing it all, or paying someone to come and help me do it. Thankfully, Bookvault helped me out, for which I am very grateful! J.F. Penn signing Pilgrimage hardbacks at bookvault, with help from alex and curtis. Thanks guys! They printed the hardbacks and then I drove up to the printing factory in Peterborough (about three hours drive from my house) and we had a signing morning, and then they shipped the books for me. Yes, I could have printed the books more cheaply if I had done a limited print run in Eastern Europe or China, or even here in the UK, and dealt with the shipping myself, but I love Bookvault, their quality is amazing, and Curtis and Alex from the team helped me out. This is obviously not a practical thing for everyone to do, but reach out to them if you’re in a similar situation. How do you communicate with backers? Kickstarter enables you to post Updates, which can be for backers only or available more widely. These are essentially blog posts on your Kickstarter campaign, and they are sent to all Backers as well as remaining on the campaign page. I did Updates every few days as the campaign hit various levels and Stretch Goal rewards and then less frequently once fulfillment was complete. Definitely update backers as much as possible and give them all the info they need to demonstrate you are delivering on your promises. You can also email backers from the Dashboard, and email them in groups by Reward. Why Kickstarter and not a usual book launch I did a video on this topic as part of the marketing campaign in order to educate people about why Kickstarter is so good for them as backers, as well as better for the creator. As a brief overview: Benefits for backers If you back a Kickstarter, you can get special editions, bonus content, interesting merchandise, bundles, digital specials, print specials, and early access to some really cool books from creators you already love and those you’ve never heard of. Once you start supporting campaigns on Kickstarter, the algorithm will recommend campaigns for you. It is essentially a different way of shopping for very cool books and other products and a way that I now

If you want a long-term successful career as an author, you need to learn the craft and the business of writing. Joseph Nassise talks about his writing process, how he diversifies his business across different publishers, different products, and different technologies, as well as how he is embracing new options for his books. In the intro, Draft2Digital opens up Print for everyone; Future Today Institute Trends report; Microsoft introduces the AI-powered 365 Co-pilot; Google unveils generative AI tools; Ethical AI Publishing newsletter from Monica Leonelle. Plus, pictures from Wales on Instagram @jfpennauthor and Facebook @jfpennauthor; my new craft course on Writing Setting and Sense of Place; With a Demon's Eye on my store, and everywhere else. Today's show is sponsored by Ingram Spark, which I use to print and distribute my print-on-demand books to 40,000 retailers including independent bookstores, schools and universities, libraries, and more. It's your content—do more with it through IngramSpark.com. Joseph Nassise is the award-nominated New York Times and USA Today bestselling author of more than 50 books across horror, urban fantasy, supernatural thrillers, as well as epic fantasy and Arthurian mythos under other pen names. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below. Show Notes The story of how Joseph's first book became a success Deciding between the traditional or indie route for individual projects Diversification and creating multiple streams of income from your intellectual property StoryCraft — Tips for learning how to write a commercial novel and publish/sell it Why create NFT editions of your book The future of NFTs and how they will become normalized Using generative AI as part of your creative process You can find Joseph at JosephNassise.com Transcript of Interview with Joseph Nassise Joanna: Joseph Nassise is the award-nominated New York Times and USA Today bestselling author of more than 50 books across horror, urban fantasy, supernatural thrillers, as well as epic fantasy and Arthurian mythos under other pen names. So welcome to the show, Joe. Joseph: Thank you so much. Pleasure to be here. Joanna: Oh, I'm excited to talk with you. So first up— Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and publishing. Joseph: Okay, well, you know how superheroes have origin stories, I have a very strange writer origin story. I wrote my first novel in college to win a case of beer. I had finished reading something, a thriller by a fairly popular thriller writer at the time, and absolutely hated it. Apparently, I wouldn't shut up about it because my roommate bet me a case of bass ale that I couldn't write a book, never mind write one that was of decent quality. So you know, hey, gauntlet thrown down, challenge accepted. I worked nights in college for the security crew, and I sat in this little booth on the side of campus from midnight to 8 am. So I used that time to write my first novel.  It went into a shoebox after I won my case of beer and sat in that shoebox for 11 years until after I'd gotten married. My wife found it when we moved into a new house, she asked to read it, thought it was pretty good, and convinced me to type it up because it had been written longhand on legal pads. And so we use this old brother word processor, and this was back in 2000, so ancient history these days, but I used this Brother word processor to print it up. We submitted it, a small press bought it, and then a few months later, Simon and Schuster came along and bought mass market rights and that kicked off my career. Interestingly, that book was the one that was nominated for my first time for the Bram Stoker award for first novel and for the International Horror Guild Award for first novel. So that really kicked things off for me. It was a great start from a really weird beginning. Joanna: Okay, that's crazy. Did you edit that book again to submit it to the publisher? I mean, it can't just have been the same draft that won the case of beer that got you Award nominations, a small press deal, and Simon and Schuster. Joseph: So I was very fortunate in having married a woman who is an exceptional editor. She went through it first and then we submitted it. And then by the time Pocket bought it, the paperback division of Simon and Schuster, I was fortunate to have as my editor, Amy Pierpont, who was the Executive Editor for the entire line. And she then again went through and edited it, and I learned a ton in that process. So I'm extremely fortunate to have both of those ladies in my life at the right time to o make this book a success. It certainly wasn't any skill on my part at that point. Joanna: That's just fascinating. Let's say to the listeners, don't expect that to happen with your beer novel! Joseph: Not common! Joanna: Not common, indeed. But tell us what happened from then. So this was 2000, I guess 2002ish maybe, the book came out. But I know you as an indie writer. Joseph: Yes. Joanna: So with your Heretic series, that's how I kind of know you.  Tell us how you got into indie. Joseph: Sure. Heretic was actually the untitled second book in my Pocket Books contract. So that came out from Pocket Books in 2005. And then I couldn't sell the darn thing for about three years, and that wigged me out. I was like, okay, I'm not a one-hit wonder, I'm a two-hit wonder, but that's as far as I was going to get. So I kept trying to figure out my process and what worked for me. I ended up selling a trilogy overseas to Germany to a publisher called Droemer Knaur, and then that was bought by Tor, and those were my first hardbacks in the US. So I spent the first 10 years of my career with traditional publishing. Simon and Schuster, Tor Books, Gallery, Harper Voyager, I did number a series for a number of publishers. I did 10 books for Gold Eagle Harlequin. But that's when the Kindle came out, right around 2009, so I've been in the industry for almost a decade. And I found ebooks, as a technology, fascinating. And the idea that — We suddenly have this platform where we can put out the work that we want to write, when we want to write it, in the form that we want to put it out in, and not have to deal with gatekeepers and things of that nature. That to me was what I think of as a disruptive technology, and that was great.  So I jumped full feet into that, and so I had this hybrid career where I continued to sell the New York, and I also do independent publishing. So when the rights to my Templar Chronicle Series, for which The Heretic was the first book, reverted back to me in 2010, I put those out and then continued the series as an indie writer. And so those books have sold more than a million copies worldwide, have done very well for me as an indie writer, where they didn't find the audience that I had hoped they would have found back as a traditional published work. So yeah, I've been doing both for a number of years now. And to me, diversification is one of the things you must do as an author these days. So that was the foundation for me, is keep writing traditional books and publish as many independent ones as I could. Joanna: So do you always submit new work to traditional publishing? Or do you have these two parallel things going on? Joseph: Two parallel things. I will definitely look and decide, okay, do I think this will work or not work as a traditionally published book? For me, I think of publishing as a business. I'm here to support myself and my family. So as crass as it may sound, money is key. And so I look at projects and decide, okay, where am I going to get the best return for my time and energy? And how will that work? So for example, I did an anthology project as an editor with Clive Barker, and my coeditor Del Howison. And we looked at Clive's novella, Cabal, and his movie, Nightbreed, and we picked up the story where Clive left off. We brought in a number of writers to tell the story of the Nightbreed as they disperse into the world at the end of the film Nightbreed. That's not a project that really would have worked as well as an indie project because traditional publishing, and obviously Clive's background and his popularity, that has the scope to reach a lot more readers through traditional publishing than it would, I think, through indie publishing. So we went that route with that particular project. You know, you mentioned the retelling of the Arthurian mythos. We took those and modernized them and made them modern urban fantasy, and turned it into a shared world with 10 writers. And that was the kind of project that just wasn't going to work as a traditionally published project. There's too many moving parts, timelines were not something that traditional publishing could handle, and so that was clearly an independent publishing work. So depending on the project, that's the way I try to figure out which is going to be the best avenue and then pursue that avenue with that particular project. Joanna: I love that attitude. And what's interesting is we were just chatting before we started recording, and you told me that you've also recently done an MFA, which kind of made me gulp. You've written all these books, you have decades of experience, and now you're going back to get an MFA. And I mean, many people who come out of MFAs are writing their first novel. Tell us, why do an MFA and what did you get out of it? Joseph: So it's definitely a bizarre experience, I'll say that. Initially, I decided I wanted to get an MFA because I wanted to have a backup for my current job as a writer, as a teacher of writing. Having insurance is always a

We all use tools to help us improve our skills, and in this episode, Leanne Leeds explains how she uses the generative AI tool, Sudowrite, to write better books and serve her readership more effectively. In the intro, OpenAI launches GPT4, and how it can be used for accessibility with Be My Eyes. Other tools include ProWritingAid's Rephrase, and upcoming GrammarlyGo, plus keep up with the news on AI with Ben's Bites and/or The Algorithmic Bridge. You can find Sudowrite through my affiliate link at www.TheCreativePenn.com/sudowrite, and I also have a tutorial on how I use Sudowrite here. This podcast is sponsored by Written Word Media, which makes book marketing a breeze by offering quick, easy and effective ways for authors to promote their books. You can also subscribe to the Written Word Media email newsletter for book marketing tips. Leanne Leeds is the author of 27 novels across contemporary paranormal, fantasy and midlife cozy mystery. She also uses AI tools as part of her creative process, which is what we're talking about today. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below. Show Notes What is Sudowrite? Incorporating Sudowrite into your creative process Using AI tools to help improve certain aspects of your writing AI tools for beginners, and how to use them better Common objections to using AI tools Potential legal issues (or non-issues) around AI How AI will change how we market our books You can find Leanne Leeds at LeanneLeeds.com and her articles on Sudowrite tips at https://blog.sudowrite.com/ You can find Sudowrite through my affiliate link at www.TheCreativePenn.com/sudowrite, and I also have a tutorial on how I use Sudowrite here. Transcript of Interview with Leanne Leeds Joanna: Leanne Leeds is the author of 27 novels across contemporary paranormal, fantasy and midlife cozy mystery. She also uses AI tools as part of her creative process, which is what we're talking about today. So welcome, Leanne. Leanne: Hi, thank you for having me. Joanna: I'm excited to talk to you. But first up— Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and publishing. Leanne: So being a novel writer was something I always wanted to do. I think I stapled a story together when I was four. It was what I thought my life was going to be. When I went to college, I went to major in English with an option in writing. Unless you're going to be a teacher when you come out of college, there are very few ways to make money, so I found myself in IT. I started a web hosting company, sold it, then that company sold to another hosting company, until I was working for this corporate behemoth largest in the world. In which case, I became a director of a department, was told to fire everybody, and then got laid off myself. Joanna: So that's a real journey. Leanne: Right. In 2016, I kind of had this, I'm, you know, 45, I'm middle-aged, what do I do with my life now? I don't know where to go. And indie publishing came up on my radar, and I gave it a shot and was kind of okay at it. So that's how I wound up here. It's definitely my second act in life career. Joanna: Oh, that's great. So you found it in 2016 when you were laid off, basically. Leanne: Yes. Joanna: I think that's important because we're going to start talking about AI. Let's get into Sudowrite. You've been using Sudowrite since June 2021. So you had like five years of—and I was talking to someone else, like, what do we call this? Do we call this manual writing or human-only writing, but the time before AI? I don't know. How do you refer to it? Leanne: I refer to it all as writing. I don't feel like things changed a huge amount. So it's funny, I know that people definitely see it as different and I can understand why, but for me, it just feels like one long process.  Things just kind of naturally change, and you discover, you know, I went from Grammarly, and then I used ProWritingAid, and then I used Sudowrite. So just pre and post AI, I guess. Joanna: I think that's interesting. In fact, for those listening, Grammarly and ProWritingAid are also AI-powered, and many people use those. So just for anyone who doesn't know— What is Sudowrite? And why did you decide to experiment with it? Leanne: So Sudowrite is a piece of software built on GPT-3, or GPT-3.5 some of it, which is a generative language writing — I don't even know the term, honestly. Joanna: A large language model. Leanne: There we go. See, you're much more well-versed in the technical stuff. It just works. I put some writing in and it gives you more writing, and that's how it works for me. But essentially, it's geared towards fiction writing and assisting fiction writers if you get stuck, if you need a description, if you need 20 descriptions to kind of get your brain going. If you need to rewrite something and you want to see different ways, it will help you do that. Joanna: And so why did you decide to get into it? Because obviously, you were writing books— Did you think this could just make things better? Leanne: I think because I was a corporate director and dealt with a lot of spreadsheets and a lot of data, I naturally geared towards seeing a lot of data to break free and move forward and make decisions. So I had a program that would search through ePubs. I could search for a phrase, “he looked,” and just kind of flip through all the author's books that I had to see how they said things in different ways, if I got stuck. You kind of quickly learned and doing that, that people say a lot of the things the same way, people phrase things simply, you don't always have to get really long, but it will sometimes just help me move. This seemed like a very natural progression to that. I wouldn't have to flip through 20 things, it would give me five that were naturally different. And so I kind of petitioned them to get in on the beta when they were first starting to show it off. Joanna: And then it's funny because I feel like I also got in at a similar time as you, but literally still the main thing I use it for is I highlight words like “underwater temple,” and I hit describe, and then I use the description stuff it pops up. For people listening, it pops up with all the sensory details and some metaphorical things. So that's literally how I use it. Can you explain how your creative writing process works now? Leanne: So, it's changed. When I first got it, I kind of pushed it to see how far can I use it, how far can I go. I was very public on Twitter with the first chapter or two, maybe three, of my third book in my third series, it's basically generated by Sudowrite. There's a button called “write,” and you can get it to write for you. I liked what it wrote, but I didn't like how I felt, and so I kind of backed up. I don't use it that way anymore. And actually, in the past two years, I've gravitated away from using it to write anything. I write, but I write differently. When I'm writing, I will not worry about fancy descriptors, fancy expressions, I will pretty much stick to kind of, quote, “boring writing.” He looked at her, she looked at him, he blinked, she kissed him. And then later during the editing, I will come back and expand those scenes out with Sudowrite or use description to weave different descriptors and expressions in to color the scene from, I guess, the scaffolding of the scene that I kind of put into place at first. Joanna: So going back to the very beginning. Do you use any other tools around ideas, like are you using ChatGPT? I mean Sudowrite has got lots of things in, like character stuff and plot stuff. So do you use anything around the ideation? Leanne: I don't use any of that. All of my characters are out of my head. I do use ChatGPT to give me specific suspects in the mystery. All of my books are cozy mystery, and I'll always know who I want to kill, generally, who did it, and how I'm going to weave it in with the standard cast, why they stumbled across it. But I will use ChatGPT to generate red herrings or generate different suspects to throw into the mix to kind of confuse everything until it all gets worked out. As far as actual characters in the book, the actual core characters, I've never used it. And I don't know why, it just never occurred to me. I never needed to, so I haven't. Joanna: I mean, I think it's interesting. So you said there's a button called “write,” which, you know, I've Sudowrite, I know about that. And you pressed it, but you didn't like how it made you feel. I think this is really interesting because you and I know, it's not 100% AI or 100% human. That's not what we're doing. It's not like you are now 100% AI. But where is the line? And this is the interesting question, isn't it? How far are other people going with what you've seen on Sudowrite? Because you do a lot of blog posts now for them, don't you? Leanne: I have. I think with AI, even in general and writing, there's a gamut of people using it a tiny bit, and using it way more than I would be comfortable with using. And I think it depends on how you feel about the technology, where your weaknesses are, and what you're trying to address with the technology. For me, I'm a dialogue-heavy writer. And you can definitely see before I used Sudowrite, that I did not describe things as well as I could have, maybe as well as I should have. I'm using the AI to address a weakness in my own writing, so that my readers have a better experience reading the book. And I'm trying to address problems that I didn't and couldn't evolve fast enough to fix, I guess. Joanna: It's interesting. You talk about weaknesses. For me, definitely, around

Writers and readers are a diverse bunch, and we all want to do our best to make sure our content is accessible to all. But how do we do that when it seems like a huge (and time-consuming) challenge for an individual creator? Jeff Adams gives some tips for getting started. In the intro, making as marketing [Ryan Holiday]; Enter awards but make sure they are worthwhile [ALLi; Reedsy; BookAwardPro]; The Creative Act: A Way of Being by Rick Rubin. This podcast is sponsored by Kobo Writing Life, which helps authors self-publish and reach readers in global markets through the Kobo eco-system. You can also subscribe to the Kobo Writing Life podcast for interviews with successful indie authors.  Jeff Adams is the author of YA thrillers and gay romance, as well as the co-host of The Big Gay Fiction Podcast with his husband and business partner, Will. Jeff's latest book is Content for Everyone, A Practical Guide for Creative Entrepreneurs to Produce Accessible and Usable Web Content, co-written with Michele Lucchini. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Staying involved in the author community when you're not writing What is accessible content? Why is it important? How to address the associated cost of making content more accessible Using alternative text tags on images Improving link text to be more descriptive How screen readers process emojis and image text—and how to improve this Tips for improving accessibility of print books Publishing in multiple formats to improve accessibility You can find Jeff at JeffAdamsWrites.com, his podcast at BigGayFictionPodcast.com, and his latest book at ContentForEveryone.info Header image generated by Joanna Penn on Midjourney. Transcript of Interview with Jeff Adams Jeff: Jeff Adams is the author of YA thrillers and gay romance, as well as the co-host of The Big Gay Fiction Podcast with his husband and business partner, Will. Jeff's latest book is Content for Everyone, A Practical Guide for Creative Entrepreneurs to Produce Accessible and Usable Web Content, co-written with Michele Lucchini. So welcome back to the show, Jeff. Thank you, Joanna. It's so wonderful to be here. Joanna: Oh, yes. And of course, we met in person at Podcast Movement. And you were on the show with Will back in April 2020, which is a long time ago. Give us an update on what you've been up to since then, in terms of your books and the Big Gay Media Empire. Jeff: I aspire to it being an empire. Joanna: I love it. It sounds like a massive empire, like Big Gay Media. You know, it sounds like you should be doing TV shows and all kinds of things. Jeff: Definitely an aspirational thing there. The last couple of years since April 2020, I think like for so many creatives, and you hear it on the show all the time, it's like it's been a difficult span, with the pandemic and things just going on in the world. And the last novel I published was actually the same month I was on your show last. I've been doing some short stories, novellas that have been in anthologies, but the creative writing has really been kind of difficult. That said, we've kept going with the podcast, that's still going. We're in our eighth year now of Big Gay Fiction. Joanna: Oh, wow. Jeff: This nonfiction book, though, has seemed to spark my desire for fiction again. I feel those juices flowing. And it makes me think about what you talk about here sometimes, the way that you do fiction, and then you do a nonfiction. You kind of pivot back and forth, kind of have a palate-cleansing moment. I think I've maybe shooed away all the bad stuff, maybe, to let me refocus on fiction. Joanna: Although, that's interesting that you say that. I haven't written a full novel, either, since probably that year, or maybe 2021. I've mainly been making short stories, and I did a novella, as well. So how does that feel? Because I mean, you have a day job, and this book is partly to do with that. How has not producing much made you feel as a creator? Especially in the communities we're in where kind of rapid production, especially in romance, is kind of the thing. Jeff: I've been through a lot of feelings on that. Initially, it's like, why can't I continue to do what I've been doing for like the last 2,3,4 years before that? Because I'd gotten into a pace where I was doing 2,3,4 books in a calendar year, and then it kind of all fell apart what I was trying to do there. So there was a little bit of beating myself up, but then it was like, this is the best that I can do right now, and I have to take care of myself. Which I think I'm in a position to do, because I don't try to do this full time at the moment. I can't imagine the stress on somebody who was in the mindset that I was, but also has to pay the bills with their creative output at the same time. Joanna: I think that's so important. And I often try to bring it back to this as well, which is most authors do have a day job. And I guess one of the things in the indie community, or even with traditional publishing, is like, oh, to be a proper writer or whatever, you must be full-time. But that's not actually true. I mean, even I could say this podcast is like my day job. It brings me an income, it's not technically writing, although the transcripts are millions of words at this point. So you said, you know, the best I could do now. How many books do you have, though? You have quite a few. Jeff: It's quite a few. I mean, one of the things that I did through those years I wasn't writing was getting some stuff republished because I had gotten a whole bunch of rights back at the end of 2019 and the early part of 2020. So I did do some republishing, I did do some freshening of some things. So I think in total, I think right now, I think it's eight novels, and probably five or six short stories out there. Joanna: But this is a funny thing, right? Because you see, some authors are like, yeah, I have one book or three books or five books, and for some people, that is a whole career. So we have got to be a bit more gentle on ourselves. Jeff: Absolutely. I learned that for sure. Joanna: Well, that's good. I'm glad. What does the Big Gay Fiction podcast do for you and the business? Jeff: It definitely keeps the name out there. And we continue to put across like, “If you like the books we talked about on this show, we've written books you might also like.” So it still is that marketing element that it was even going back to when we started it when I was writing much more. It also lets us keep our networking into the community. Even if we're not working with other authors on like cross promoting books through our email lists or all those things that authors might gather up to do, even in this moment where I'm not writing, I'm still active in that author community through the podcast and promoting the genre, instead of just potentially dropping out entirely if we hadn't had the show, and then I'm not writing at the same time. So I feel like it's definitely helped to maintain that connection and network to the genre that we operate in. Joanna: And that's really good. I feel the same. I mean, I don't think we've actually spoken since when we spoke in April 2020. I mean, we're kind of aware of each other, and we email sometimes, and there's a sort of connection between community members which supports all of us. So yeah, I mean, I feel the same way with my show.  Also, we don't know who's listening. We don't know who's listening to this. They may never have heard of the Big Gay Fiction Podcast, but now they have, and it is one of the best show names in the industry. I still love it. So we should probably talk about the book, which is this Content for Everyone. What is accessible content? Because it's one of those terms we've heard, we might not understand. And why is it important? And why do you care? Jeff: We could probably talk the next hour about that, but I'll bring it down to some key points. So if you think about the content that's out there on the web, and I think most of us think about engaging with content in the way that we personally do. And for most of us, it's engaging with it visually on our screen. We're probably navigating with a mouse or maybe a trackball or a trackpad, or whatever that is. If you're on a mobile device or a tablet, it's tap, and zoom, and pinch and whatnot. But if you think about people who need to use other methods to interact, perhaps they're blind and using a screen reader, there's going to be barriers to them potentially accessing your content because of how it's done. You could have somebody, certainly anybody who has hearing loss, transcripts for our shows are so important for them to be able to get the messages, understand what we're putting out on our shows. Similarly, captions for videos. Think about images. Images of text are used all the time in our industry. I think one of the things we see for authors right now that are so popular, are those square images with the book in the middle and all the arrows coming into the book cover, you know, talking about tropes and plot points and whatnot. So not only if people are blind, they're obviously going to need some other text, either in the alternative text or in the post itself to give us what's in the image. But then if they're low vision, and you've got bad color contrast in that image, people aren't able to connect with that. If somebody's dyslexic, and the font you've chosen is really curly and fancy, maybe they can't connect with that. Those are just some easy examples to talk about when we think about accessible content.  It's important because everything is on the internet these

What are the core fundamentals of a successful independent author business? How can you focus on writing, as well as sell more books, and stay healthy? Prolific fantasy author Lindsay Buroker shares her tips. In the intro, YouTube gets into audio-only podcasts; Seth Godin's book marketing for The Song of Significance; How to make more money than the average author [Ask ALLi]; Independent author income survey from ALLi; The Authors Guild updated their model contract with a new clause: No Generative AI Training Use. Plus, my photos from Washington D.C.; I'm on the Write Now with Scrivener Podcast; Pictures from signing hardbacks at Bookvault in Peterborough. Today's podcast sponsor is Findaway Voices, which gives you access to the world's largest network of audiobook sellers and everything you need to create and sell professional audiobooks. Take back your freedom. Choose your price, choose how you sell, choose how you distribute audio. Check it out at FindawayVoices.com. Lindsay Buroker is the author of over 100 books across epic fantasy, urban fantasy, science fiction, fantasy, romance, and more. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes How Lindsay's current business works, and how she's ready to pivot and is considering other things, like Kickstarter The core fundamentals for a long-term author business What changes and what stays the same Pros and cons of writing under a pen name Dealing with negative feedback Investing, and thinking about the future for our intellectual property You can find Lindsay at LindsayBuroker.com and listen to the backlist at https://6figureauthors.com/. Header image created by Joanna Penn on Midjourney. Transcript of Interview with Lindsay Buroker Joanna: Lindsay Buroker is the author of over 100 books across epic fantasy, urban fantasy, science fiction, fantasy, romance, and more. So welcome back to the show, Lindsay. Lindsay: Hey, thanks for having me. It's been a couple years. So we'll see what's going on. Joanna: It's so exciting to talk to you because lots of people miss you, and they miss the Six Figure Authors Podcast. I do. I used to listen to that show every week, whenever it was, and we have not heard your news for a while. So you did the last main episode of Six Figure Authors in April 2022, and did a surprise extra in October 2022, but give us an update.  What does your book business look like now? And what have you been writing in the last year? Lindsay: I feel a little bad about that October episode because it was super doom and gloom. Joanna: It was really good. Lindsay: We're probably going to do another one, just pop into update. For my book business, I haven't changed a lot. I've slowed down a little bit, which it may not look like from the outside because the series I'm working on their shorter, like 80 – 90,000 words, which, compared to some of my epic fantasy stuff that's short. So I'm writing fewer words a day, I used to shoot for like 7,000 to 10,000. And now I'm just like, yeah, screw that, maybe 5,000. But because they're shorter books, I've still been publishing as much. I don't know if that will continue. I haven't made a lot of changes. I'm still launching new stuff into Kindle Unlimited. Things are still working pretty well for me, but I'm definitely keeping an eye on what's going on. You know, you were talking about selling direct and the people that are just doing other things, and Kickstarters, and I do have the Patreon. So I'm always ready. If I have to pivot, I want to be prepared. I might do a Kickstarter and try some stuff, regardless, but it's a lot of work as I think you've been talking about the Kickstarter you did. And until you actually know how much you're going to make from it, it's a bit of a question mark. Like if I'm not going to make more than I'm making a month from Amazon, do I really want to put all this extra work above and beyond what I usually do? So that's why I haven't done it yet.  I am excited about all the things that people are doing now and all the ways you can make money from your books. It's pretty fun to watch all the various ways people succeed and contemplate trying some things myself. Joanna: Well, just on the Kickstarter, I mean, your social media posts are often just interesting things with dragons on them, right, like lamps and random stuff with dragons. And if you did a Kickstarter, you would have to do merchandise of some kind because everyone will want some kind of dragon thing. Lindsay: It's true. And I don't really have a go-to person for creating things like that for art, other than cover designs and such. So that's extra work, finding that. I think people want a hardback, like a signed hardback edition, which I'd be open to, but again, I haven't done it yet. Everything would be like the first time it'd be the hardest. And I'm sure you could become like Kris and Dean (WMG Publishing) doing their monthly Kickstarter, like the way I am releasing on Amazon, like, oh, it's no big deal, it's just another series. So I think it's just that first time that's got me hesitating a little bit because I know it will be a learning curve. I did do a Kickstarter like 10 years ago, so I do have some experience with it, but now I actually have fans. I had a few back then, like it worked out. It was good. Joanna: What did you make? Do you remember? What did you make on that? Lindsay: I was just funding my audiobooks, because early on, it cost quite a bit to have those done. And in those days, I was doing like free audiobooks, and gosh, I can't even remember, was ACX a thing? I feel like it might have been, but that was the only game in town. So audiobooks weren't profitable for me, but people wanted them. So I was funding a couple of those.  I give away the audiobooks, but I also gave away sign paperbacks of this series. Those were very popular. So I had to sign all this stuff. Everybody wanted a custom message from one of the characters. And I'm like, of course, of course! So that was a lot of work. And I found out how much international shipping was the hard way. Like there weren't as many calculators and stuff to warn you back then that it was going to be $50 to ship a couple books to Australia. So I ended up doing okay, but it was definitely a lot of work. Joanna: Well, as we're recording this, I'm going to the printer next week, my books are printing right now, but things have definitely changed in terms of the technology. I'm kind of keeping this list at the moment of the new jobs that we need virtual assistants for. And I think running a Kickstarter campaign for authors, maybe Monica and Russell, in their group, they have people who are going to do this. But you would have a massive Kickstarter now, and you could actually hire someone to run it.  I actually think that type of job is going to be an emergent one in the future because it's like a project manager role, really. There's so much to organize, and for people who actually can drive the back end of Kickstarter and the backer kit and all that, I think that's a real skill. I mean— Would you hire someone like that if you were going to do a Kickstarter? I mean, you wouldn't do all yourself. Lindsay: It's funny because I've actually asked someone, and she said yes. So I won't out her on this show because I don't know if she wants to be like, oh, that's going to be my new job, everybody's going to want me to run one, because I think they've done a couple of now. So I am keeping that in mind, I agree. Maybe you do it yourself the first time or with guidance so you kind of learn everything, but yeah, I could definitely see that just then you make a list, right. Here’s what I need done, and you hand it off to someone. I think there are more jobs that are going to be available for people that are willing to help, you know, there are already lots of author assistants, editing, cover art, but we are seeing more opportunities. You know, just like you don't want to manage your ads, maybe you don't want to manage your Kickstarter. And it does make sense for anyone that thinks they're going to make enough. Maybe you've already got an established fan base, and you're doing a new installment in a series that you know people will say yes because they already like it. In that case, you might know you're going to make enough to pay someone and make it worth their time. Joanna: It's interesting what changes. I feel like when we both went full-time, both of us it was 2011, wasn't it? Lindsay: It might have been 2012 for me by the time I was like, oh, I'm actually making more than the old day job. But I kind of had a year where I was sort of checked out on what I was doing before and really focused on writing. Joanna: I mean, and back then, there just wasn't the ecosystem for authors. There wasn't the technology that we have now. Like you said, I mean, Kickstarter was around back then, but it wasn't a place really for publishing and authors, whereas that's definitely really changed. Is there anything else that you're looking at now that you think, okay, maybe this is something more interesting, this is a way that I could do? I mean, the thing is, your business is running so well, like you said. When do you think you might just go, right, I need to pivot? Is it when the income drops? Lindsay: Right. Amazon, they've been cutting corners in this supposed recession we're having, or going to have. Amazon's been laying people off and cutting out some things. So I'm just watching like, well, let's see if they cut on KU or change the royalty rate or something. Hopefully not. But I always try to think, well, what would I do if that happened? I

Write and publish what you want, get paid every day for your books, and control your customer data and relationships. It's possible if you sell direct, as Pierre Jeanty talks about in this interview. In the intro, the author income survey [ALLi]; publishing clauses to avoid [Writer Unboxed; Writer Beware]; copyright registration for AI-assisted comic Zarya of the Dawn [Process Mechanics]; tips for writing with AI [Self Publishing Show]; my Sudowrite tutorial. Today's show is sponsored by ProWritingAid, writing and editing software that goes way beyond just grammar and typo checking. With its detailed reports on how to improve your writing and integration with Scrivener, ProWritingAid will help you improve your book before you send it to an editor, agent or publisher. Check it out for free or get 25% off the premium edition at www.ProWritingAid.com/joanna Pierre Jeanty is a poet and inspirational author, publisher and entrepreneur. He specializes in selling through Shopify and teaches authors his methods through 7figurebookbusiness.com. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes How Pierre started selling direct early, and how sales on other stores like Amazon happen even when he focuses on selling to Shopify first The importance of changing your mindset Flipping the business model to selling direct first Changes in the indie zeitgeist with more authors wanting more independence Best ways to market your Shopify store Separating your store by brand and genre You can find Pierre Jeanty at PierreJeanty.com or 7figurebookbusiness.com Transcript of Interview with Pierre Jeanty Pierre: Pierre Jeanty is a poet and inspirational author, publisher and entrepreneur. He specializes in selling through Shopify, and teaches authors his methods through 7figurebookbusiness.com, which I can highly recommend, and I'm personally going through at the moment. So welcome, Pierre. Thank you. Thank you for having me, Joanna. Joanna: Oh, I'm so excited to talk to you. But first up— Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing. Pierre: That is an interesting story. So as an immigrant in the US, I came here in 2000. And after entering the States, I worked my way into going into college. In college, one of the things that I seemed to be more interested in was the language itself, but also into writing poetry. And diving into social media during that time, it was Myspace. So since then, I've had a hunger to actually play with words and use poetry. Around 2011, 2010, around that time, I was building out Twitter and becoming a Twitter influencer, and I started writing more inspirational content that I felt would help people. From there on, that's where I started with a book. And the rest is history. Joanna: The rest is history that people don't know! So you're going to have to take us on a bit. From 2011, that's more than a decade ago, so you put out your first poetry book. And look, I mean, people in the community even now would say, you write a poetry book and nothing's going to happen, right? I mean, maybe you could be an insta-poet or whatever. How did you take that forward from one poetry book over a decade ago to where you are now? Like, just give us some of the highlights. Pierre: Okay, so one thing, just to be clear, my first book did not get published until 2014. So 2011, I was thinking about the poetry book, but I had almost no direction. So it was no guidance whatsoever. So what I did instead was continue to build my influence, to where in 2011, I founded a brand name Gentlemanhood, in which the whole focus was to write content for men to help them express themselves and be better in relationships, because men tend to be not as vocal. Well, now we have that ability it seems, but that was the issue then. So in 2014, after having a successful blog, it was gentlemanhood.com. And it was mostly me writing about men and relationships, but different writers would join me. My audience actually started requesting that I put a book out. My first book, it was more pretty much structured however I wanted it to be. So it was me just having poems on one side, and on the other side, expressing detail in the kind of like the situation. What happened throughout that time, what sparked the poem, and so forth. And I wrote it in a way that I felt like my audience would receive it.  So December 10, 2014, I published my first book, Unspoken Feelings of a Gentleman, and with the audience receiving it well. That was my first introduction to direct sale, to be honest, because I did not understand CreateSpace, Amazon KDP did not necessarily exist for print. So I created a WooCommerce shop, which was our old website, gentlemanhood.com. That's what I used to publish my first book where we had presales through email, and we had direct relationship, let's say, with the readers and the buyers. From there on, it was 2014, then mid-2015, I decided to—after going on tour, I have to mention that. But after going on my first tour, a lot of this book was for men, but a lot of women were reading it. So they requested that I do something for women. And I said I've never been a woman, but I can express the things that I've learned. And I wrote a poetry book titled To the Women I Once Loved, published it in 2015 September, around that time. And right after that, I pretty much took a pause.  What really got me into becoming known in the poetry world and so forth, it was 2016. I spent the entire year trying to write Unspoken Feelings II, and I finished it in December, but right after that, I felt the urge to write a smaller book. First, it would be more receptive on Facebook because then Facebook had been a marketer first, Facebook had this issue with the textual. So my poems, I decided to condense them, make them a bit smaller. And a lot of the new audience I was creating, growing, wanted that. And there, I launched my first successful poetry book, which is Her. And since then, I've been almost nonstop, not as much as nonstop like fiction authors who tend to write countless words and publish a bunch of books consistently, but more than enough in a six month period. I stayed with the concept of publishing at least two books a year. Joanna: Hmm. Well, there are many things I love about what you've done. It's like you go against so many of, I want to call them ‘the myths of indie.' You know, back in the day, or there still are myths of traditional publishing. And the myths of indie have now grown up that you can't be successful as a poet. You can't be successful unless you write a book a month. You can't be successful if you don't focus on Amazon. So you've kind of gone against all these different things. And yet, I also love that you—I mean, I've looked at your poetry—and I love that you're both a poet and a marketer. So how do you feel like, for people listening, who are like, “I'm a poet,” or, “I'm a literary fiction author,” or “I'm someone who's not into marketing,” which let's face it, is a lot of authors. Did you have to learn how to be a marketer, as well as the creative side? How can people change their mindset around marketing and business, as well as focus on creativity? Pierre: I think one of the main things is to really, I guess the best way is to look at the purpose of your product. And being that I'm a marketer, and I'm doing direct sales, I always kind of refer to products, and by products, I mean books. So what makes it so much easier for me to market my books is that I know my ideal reader very well. I know what they're looking for. So when it comes to marketing, my idea of it is, I wrote this for you, and I'm going to do whatever it takes to get it over to you. So then marketing is no longer a task that is annoying, or a task that I would outsource to someone else. It became, to me, a challenge to find out how am I going to reach my reader because I'm really passionate about getting it over to my reader. Now, I have to say this, is that I've always been a marketer first, because even though my book, Her, is the most successful book that I've had. But my first book, Unspoken Feelings of a Gentleman, it climbed to the top thousands on Amazon, it's done well, a lot of celebrities actually had a few copies. What I leveraged off of during that time was using influencer marketing. So I've always been fascinated with social media and getting extremely early, which allowed me to understand the behavior for marketing. And to a point where, when I created my own product, I said, my goal was to learn what is the best way to utilize every skill set that I've picked up, up until that time, and get in front of the readers. So if you're having trouble, I mean trouble when it comes to bridging the two together, I always ask this question: What good—not what good, some people may be offended by that—but think about the effort that you've put behind creating an amazing book. And you know who you want to read it. You know how you want it to make them feel, how you want them to react and so forth. That's where now you have to take the extra step and say, “Well, I'm going to find those people because they exist, and I wrote it for them.” Joanna: I love that. Yes, you're very reader focused. Let's get into the direct sales, because you mentioned WooCommerce that you got into earlier, but now you focus on selling direct on Shopify. Why did you make that decision to go direct? Why Shopify? And what are the benefits for authors? Pierre: So why I went direct is a unique story to tell. So starting in 2017 when I released Her, it been successful, and it's still successful. With that, came me building a bunch of,

After many years of people saying, “AI can never be creative, AI could never write fiction (i.e. make things up), it's now evident that the generative AI tools make a lot up — and we need to be aware of the potential ramifications. How can we use the tools to achieve our creative purpose in an ethical manner, and understand that we need to curate, edit, and take responsibility for any usage? How can we educate ourselves and others on the way these AI models work? Tim Boucher and I have a challenging, wide-ranging discussion in this interview. In the intro, I comment on ‘A concerning trend of AI-generated submissions' to short story market, Clarkesworld, and the ‘tsunami of crap' all over again [JA Konrath], and how we can use AI tools in a responsible manner. Today's show is sponsored by my wonderful patrons who fund my brain so I have time to think about and discuss these futurist topics impacting authors. If you support the show, you also get the extra monthly patron-only Q&A audio. You can support the show at www.patreon.com/thecreativepenn Tim Boucher is a hyperrealist AI artist and writer specializing in questionable alternative realities. He's worked professionally in content moderation policy, and counter-disinformation efforts on behalf of a major web platform, a blockchain protocol. And he has advised nonprofits and governments on related issues You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below. Show Notes How Tim started writing and publishing, and why he decided to experiment with AI tools for images and words Misinformation by humans and AI hallucinations, how we need to fact check , edit, curate, and manage outputs — and how these can be used in fiction Tim's AI-collaborative creative process and the tools he uses for words and images Labeling and ethical use of AI [see the Alliance of Independent Authors guidelines here] Why Tim uses Gumroad to sell direct and doesn't publish on Amazon How authors need to engage with the technology, experiment, and learn to stand out in an ever-increasingly crowded market You can find Tim at TimBoucher.ca and his books at LostBooks.gumroad.com Header image created by Joanna Penn on Midjourney. Introduction: Addressing the flood of AI-generated content/books In this introductory section, I want to talk about some of the news items that have arisen this week, and that fit into this episode very well. From the headlines this week, “Sci-fi publisher Clarkesworld halts pitches amid deluge of AI-generated stories.” [The Guardian] and “Hundreds of AI-written books flood Amazon.” [The Independent].  I’m not sure why people are surprised about this, and of course, this will only increase. But as ever, the headlines are clickbait and we need to have a more nuanced approach.  Yes, there will be scammers, spammers, pirates, get-rich-quick schemes and plagiarisers using these tools to mass produce crap and publish it quickly.  But that is nothing new.  People who do this kind of thing have always done this kind of thing.  Everything I have ever written, recorded, or produced in every format has been plagiarised, pirated, stolen, and republished elsewhere. I used to try and stop it, and I still do make an effort when someone literally steals everything— but it takes up too much time to try and stop it all, so I focus on creating value for my true audience — all of you. This happens to me, and I am a (mostly) unknown author in a tiny corner of the internet. The most famous books, blogs, films, music, etc, get pirated the moment they emerge, or even before release if leaked.   Humans are the problem, but of course, AI technology enables this to be done at scale — which makes it more of a problem. But again, this is nothing new. Have you checked your email spam folder lately? Are you aware of how much content farm crap the Google algorithm filters out when you search? Do you know how much content moderation there already is on the internet? Are you aware of all the scams that go on even just in our little author corner of the internet?  Check Writer Beware for years of them, most of them prior to generative AI. Do you know how many times Amazon has been ‘flooded’ with spam books?  Have a look at David Gaughran’s blog for a glimpse [Scammers break the Kindle store from 2017, Kindle Unlimited: A Cheater Magnet from 2021, and a whole load more.]  On The Guardian UK in 2018, Fake books sold on Amazon could be used for money laundering; and in 2019, Plagiarism, book-stuffing, click farms … the rotten side of self-publishing. Because yes, we’ve heard this all before.  “The tsunami of crap” all over again Back in 2011, JA Konrath, one of the early and most successful indie authors, wrote a blog post entitled, ‘The tsunami of crap.’ “Some people believe the ease of self-publishing means that millions of wannabe writers will flood the market with their crummy ebooks, and the good authors will get lost in the morass, and then family values will go unprotected and the economy will collapse and the world will crash into the sun and puppies and kittens by the truckload will die horrible, screaming deaths. Or something like that.” I remember that time well. I spent way too much time and effort trying to prove that an author could be serious about the writing craft and the business — and that professionally self-publishing, being an independent author, was a valid creative choice, and for many, a sensible business choice. Yes, there was — and still is — a tsunami of crap, but don’t lump us all together. It is more nuanced than that.  Eventually, we stopped talking about it and just got on with writing books and reaching readers. The success of the indie author movement attracted more authors, and now, over a decade later, the ‘stigma’ of self-publishing is — almost — gone.  In fact, we are collectively a huge chunk of the book market. As Michael Tamblyn, CEO of Kobo said at Frankfurt Book Fair in October 2022, “One in four books that we sell in English is a self-published title, which means that effectively for us self-publishing is like having a whole other Penguin Random House sitting out in the market that no one sees. It’s like the dark matter of publishing.”  So the stigma may be gone for indie authors, but now it seems we might have to go through the same situation all over again with AI tools. Because the situation is similar.  There ARE a load of crap self-published books, as there are a load of crap traditionally published books, and as per Sturgeon’s Law, 90% of everything is crap.  Have you changed your mind about self-publishing in the last decade? Are there other technologies you’ve changed your mind about?  So yes, there will be a ton of crap AI-generated books. But readers aren’t stupid As JA Konrath said in his original article, “Readers don't care if some moron uploads his ten-years-in-the-making opus “Me and My Boogers: A Love Story.” They’ll be able to avoid it just by looking at the crummy cover art, the poor description, and the handful of one star reviews.” The same is true of the masses of AI books generated in one second or less which are flooding the store. As with every other flood of crap content, Amazon/Google/Meta, etc will crack down and those books will be culled, the ‘authors’ penalized, etc.  Inevitably, some ‘real’ authors will get crushed by the hammer, but they will appeal and be reinstated.  There will also be regulation, safety guidelines, legal shifts, and guardrails added to the technology in the coming months and years as things develop. For example, we had Microsoft Bing’s Sidney for just a few weird days, and now they have added guard-rails to stop it getting too creative. [The Verge] Like fire, electricity, and the internet in general, ‘AI’ is both a tool and a weapon. It is our job to engage and help shape it for the better — because it is not going away and the usage and applications of AI will only increase and accelerate. Compare the internet of 2003 with the internet of 2023. The impact of AI will be much greater than this. Read AI 2041: Ten Visions For Our Future – Kai-Fu Lee and Chen Qiufan for a glimpse of the possibilities. So what about Clarkesworld and other smaller companies (agents/publishers/journals etc)? Every company and publication will need to apply filters of some kind. I am a one-person business, and I already use a premium paid spam filter and a premium paid Contact form on my blog, because I get hit by hundreds of spam comments and messages per day. These types of filter products will emerge for spam AI content and that will help somewhat.  There may also need to be a submission fee, even just 1c/1p, to submit to a magazine, or an award, to join an organization, or even to publish on Amazon. Some say that would prevent marginalized writers submitting, but there could also be a fund set up that people could apply for so that isn’t an issue.  Some say that’s against the spirit of these free submissions but times have changed, technology has changed, and business practices need to change, too. Back to JA Konrath’s blog post, he ends with, “If you're really worried about readers being subjected to crap, here's what you can do: DON'T WRITE CRAP.” So now we come to the authors who love to write and create and who want to reach readers — and who want to use technology to help them do that. Use AI tools responsibly to create great art and run a better creative business There are ‘real’ human authors right now using AI to

How can you create a universe big enough for multiple series? How can you co-write successfully? How can you pivot your business model to achieve your creative, financial, and lifestyle goals? Martha Carr talks about these things and more. In the intro, Simon & Schuster is back up for sale [Reuters, Episode 662 with Jane Friedman]; The New Gatekeepers report [Ben Evans]; Marvellous Maps. Today's show is sponsored by Ingram Spark, which I use to print and distribute my print-on-demand books to 40,000 retailers including independent bookstores, schools and universities, libraries, and more. It's your content—do more with it through IngramSpark.com. Martha Carr is the best-selling author of over 200 urban fantasy novels. Her newest series, Queen of the Flightless Dragons, will be coming out on Kickstarter in May 2023 with Book One, Eamon. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes The mindset shift when switching from traditional to indie publishing How to take notes, and then turn those notes into books How to know when an idea is big enough for a universe Rules to follow when creating different series arcs within a universe Pros and cons of co-writing Establishing contracts and protecting intellectual property when co-writing How the business model is continually changing for indie authors Kickstarter and why it is valuable to growing your audience You can find Martha Carr at MarthaCarr.com Header image created by Joanna Penn on Midjourney. Transcript of Interview with Martha Carr Joanna: Martha Carr is the best-selling author of over 200 urban fantasy novels. Her newest series, Queen of the Flightless Dragons, will be coming out on Kickstarter in May 2023 with Book One, Eamon. So welcome to the show, Martha. Martha: Thank you. I'm so glad to be here. Thanks for asking me. Joanna: I'm excited to talk to you. So first up— Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and self-publishing. Martha: So I started writing actually, shoot, about 35 years ago, and I was published traditionally, and I was a journalist, and I had a national column. And then of course, the world changed, and indie publishing became a thing, and it just got more and more enticing. And then I ran into Michael Anderle, and then the rest is history. Joanna: Now, some people listening might not know Michael Anderle, surprising as it is. But you said the word enticing, as well. What enticed you into this indie world? And how did your work with Michael start? Martha: So in traditional world, you have to have all your ducks in a row leading up to publication because you can't change much once the book is out there. So if you get the cover wrong or the blurb wrong, you have to live with it. And all the marketing you do is front-end loaded, and they give you about three months to prove that you can sell books. Then everything gets harder if you don't sell what they consider enough. In indie land, if you find the blurb is not working, you can change it that hour. And you can always redo all the covers. I mean, there's like a million chances to get to know your audience. And it just seems more organic and makes more sense.  A lot of the marketing you do comes after the book is out. A lot of times I don't do the biggest push until Book Three is coming out. I do it on Book One when Book Three is coming out. So that's a lot more appealing. Plus, the cut you get as a traditional author is a lot smaller. Joanna: Absolutely. And we'll come back to co-writing in a bit. But you mentioned there that you were a journalist and also were traditionally published. So even though you found this world enticing, how did you break out of that traditional mindset? And I'm sure you have friends in your previous career who might have judged your choices, so how have you dealt with that mindset shift? Martha: So I have found that, inevitably, I have to answer to myself. And if I make decisions based on everyone else's gut, I'll make a million different decisions, and it will add up to nothing because I'll keep changing my mind. There was a lot of pushback when I initially went indie. And somebody wrote me a really long email about how I was embarrassing myself, and I just deleted it. They weren't even an author. Joanna: That's crazy. Martha: Yeah. And in the end, I just have to believe in myself and ask myself all the right questions, and it was more about what do I want to do. Plus, I was having a lot more fun as an indie author, and it just seemed more rewarding. With traditional publishing, there's a lot of wait time. You have to get on a schedule. You're not going to put out many books at all every year, maybe one or two at most. And that, by the way, that's Lois Lane in the background, who is my very sweet deaf dog, who I would have to chase down to stop her from doing that. But generally, the people I've been hanging with, I think a lot of the authors I knew were curious. It's something odd when you are more interested in a few gatekeepers liking you than a million fans. I'd rather go with the fans. My ultimate goal is for people to read the book, it's not to get editors to like me. Joanna: I think this is a difficult attitude to adopt, and a strong one. Like you're clearly very strong on that. I get a lot of emails from people wondering if they should make this jump. You mentioned a few things there, like the speed of publishing, and that maybe you could have only done one a year with traditional. You've written and co-written over 200 books now. Tell us a bit about your prolific creative process. Martha: So clearly, that would have never happened in traditional land. People ask me all the time, how do you keep coming up with stories? And I think that's like my superpower. I just think I walk around looking at the world differently, and weird stuff occurs to me, and I keep notes, I take little notes, and it just keeps popping up. I think as a kid, I always wanted to believe magic was real, and so I just have these ideas that keep popping up. That never could have happened in traditional land. And the nice thing, too, is my grown son seems to have taken after me in that way. So when I'm stuck, I can call him and the strangest things come out of his mouth. Once I needed something for a magical museum, and instantly without even hesitating, he said, leather armor for a whale. And that was perfect, and so strange. The other thing about traditional land is you really are at the mercy of a very small handful of people. And we're all human beings, so we are very subjective and opinionated. And one person may hate your book, but 10,000 fans might have liked it, and you're never going to know that. Joanna: So coming back to your creative process, you mentioned you have all these ideas, and you write notes. So first of all, how do you take notes? Like I take them on my phone on the “Things” app, that's what I use. How do you take your notes? Martha: You're doing a much better job than I am. I carry around a little notebook, and I usually put the notes there. Or if I'm without it, I just text myself. But your idea is much better. Joanna: How do you take those notes and ideas and actually write the books? Because a lot of people have a lot of ideas, and most people do not have several hundred books. Martha: So standing out to me the most, because I kind of know when I'm going to need another idea, and something is standing out to me, and I'll just pick that one. And then if I'm working with Michael, I'll mention it to him. And his brain is like mine, he's off and running as soon as I give him the start of something, and we just kind of form. So you have to start with: how does this affect the universe? If that's what we're talking about. What's the backstory? And from the backstory, it gets easier. Once you have that, like, who is this person? What motivates them? Characters matter to me more than anything, it's why someone's going to go from Book One to Book Two to Book Three. The characters will matter more. They're dropping in to see how their friends are doing. And of course, clearly, plot matters a lot, but if you don't have the character relationships, it's going to be hard to drag people along for an entire series. Joanna: Hmm, true, and we'll come back to the series side. In terms of your actual writing process, do you dictate? Do you type? Do you get on the phone with Michael and kind of brainstorm? How do you actually get those words done? Martha: So when you're talking about creating the book, I brainstorm with Michael. If it's one of my books, I'm usually talking to Charley Case, another author, or my son, Louie Carr, who is a music manager. And I write an outline, a very complete outline, and I will write a lot of things that will never make it into the story. It keeps the character true and gives me a better idea of who they would be if they actually existed. All the side characters are written out. So before I start writing the first word, it's really fleshed out so that I can just go. And I don't use dictation, by the way. I've tried it, and I found I just can't do it. There's something about typing that brings up another side of me. I wish I could do it. TR Cameron, who writes in the Oriceran Universe, uses dictation. And I envy that, but so far, that's not me. Joanna: Yes, I must say, I keep trying it as well. I've had a lot more success with my nonfiction, but fiction, I'm like you. I almost don't know what I'm going to write, I don't even outline, I'm a discovery writer. And I sit down, and that's when it comes out is when I type things. I also work in a cafe a l

How can you embrace book marketing as a creative part of your author business? How can you effectively market your backlist over time? How can you tap into ambition and drive your author business onward and upward? Honoree Corder talks about all this and more. In the intro, Draft2Digital add a new library marketplace [D2D]; Running a publishing house is not as much fun as it used to be [Mike Shatzkin]; Microsoft launches the new Bing with ChatGPT-style co-pilot, and soon to be rolled out in other products like MS Word, Teams, etc [The Verge]; My future of publishing talk, 22 Feb [register here]; Thanks for joining the Pilgrimage Kickstarter, and pre-order on other stores; Superstars writing conference. Today's show is sponsored by Draft2Digital, where you can get free ebook formatting, free distribution to multiple stores, and a host of other benefits. Get your free Author Marketing Guide at draft2digital.com/penn Honoree Corder is the author of over 50 books, with more than 4.5 million sold worldwide. She's also a strategic book coach, professional speaker, and host of the Empire Builders Mastermind. Her latest book is, You Must Market Your Book: Increase Your Impact, Sell More Books, and Make More Money. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below. Show Notes The book marketing mindset and why it is important Scheduling creative time vs. business time How to find the book marketing options that work for your personality Email marketing and how it has stayed consistent over the years Marketing your backlist books effectively How personal development can help your author business You can find Honoree at HonoreeCorder.com Transcript of Interview with Honoree Corder Joanna: Honoree Corder is the author of over 50 books, with more than 4.5 million sold worldwide. She's also a strategic book coach, professional speaker, and host of the Empire Builders Mastermind. Her latest book is, You Must Market Your Book: Increase Your Impact, Sell More Books, and Make More Money. So welcome back to the show, Honoree. Honoree: Hi, I'm so happy to be here. Joanna: I'm so excited to talk to you again. Now, you were last on the show in 2015, which is kind of crazy. Tell us a bit about you and how you got into writing and publishing. Honoree: I was a business coach, and an executive coach and corporate trainer, motivational speaker. And of course, everyone would always say, “You must write a book. Where's your book? I want to buy your book.” And I met Mark Victor Hansen, who everyone would probably know is the co-creator of the Chicken Soup for the Soul series. And he said, “Hi, I'm Mark,” and I introduced myself and he's like, “What do you do?” And I said, “Oh, I'm a coach and a speaker,” and he could not have been less impressed. He was like, “Yeah, okay, everybody's a coach and a speaker. You must write a book.” And I thought, okay, and I just started asking him questions because he seemed friendly. And I didn't realize in that moment, I was probably asking him the same 52 questions everyone asks him, that we get asked all the time. But he was very kind and gracious and answered my questions.  I immediately went home from that conference and sat in a chair for three days and wrote the first horrible, ugly draft of my very first book. And that's really how I got started, I made every mistake that we caution against in our books for writers. But I got the fever, I was like, oh, this is great, I love this. I loved having a book, I loved being able to make a difference and connect with people in ways that I hadn't been able to do without a book. And then I started learning the lessons of how to professionally publish a book, and to publish a book well, and market a book well, and sell books and market with my book. And that was really the beginning of my journey, and that was over 18 years ago, now. Joanna: There are a few things I want to come back on there. First of all, he said, okay, you need a book, right? You need a book to be a speaker. Now, are we living in different times in that everyone does now have a book? And if that's true, if more speakers now have books, or it's much, much easier to publish now, obviously, than it was back then— If everyone can have a book, or does have one, how do we stand out? Obviously, we're going to talk about how to market your book, but is that true anymore for speakers and coaches, I guess? Honoree: I do think it's true for speakers, and coaches ,and entrepreneurs and anyone who wants to differentiate themselves in whatever their discipline or work is, definitely. I think the next question you are probably going to ask is: then how do we differentiate our book from other people? Joanna: Especially for nonfiction, like you mentioned being a business coach, let's say, how to communicate better with people or something, a lot of people do keynotes around communication. How does someone in that kind of niche differentiate themselves? Honoree: Well, I'm going to just take a little segue and say it has to be professionally published. You've got to do an excellent job. Whether you indie publish it, you have it hybrid published, or you try to go the traditional route, you have to make sure that your book game is tight, that your book checks all the boxes of a professionally published book. In addition to that, the contents of one's book, in my opinion, must be a window into how they work and their methodology and their processes. The book is meant to start a relationship between the reader and the author. And so the message of the book, I think, must be what it is that you do differently as a business coach, as an executive coach, as a speaker, as an entrepreneur. What is your special secret? What is your secret sauce? And putting that in the book, and include anything that would give someone a clue as to how you work, why you work, where you work, who you work with, whether you have a sense of humor or not. All of the ways that people can develop a relationship with you, in your words. So that when they get to the end of the book, the next question they have is, who is this Joanna person and where is she so I can give her more of my money? How can I connect with her in a more meaningful, deeper way? Joanna: Yes, as you say, if you want people to do business with you, your book has to reflect who you are with the business. But the other question I have for you as a professional speaker before we get into the new book, is it feels like the highest-paid professional speakers are traditionally published. Now, that just may be a coincidence, but it feels like perhaps the speaker circuit does reward that kind of thing more. And what do you think, do speaking venues and conferences and things, do they care really how a book is published? Do you think that's true that people do get paid more when they're traditionally published? What are your thoughts on getting paid as a speaker with an indie book? Honoree: Well, I have a decent-sized keynote, and I am indie published. I don't think that they care, as long as your book is well done. You send them a book that is clearly hastily self-published, they're probably going to overlook you. I think there is probably a decent amount of other consideration. Have you built and sold a company? Or have you held a position at a company that we would know? Were you an executive at Apple, or Amazon, or Microsoft or another company that's easily recognizable? Also, I think some of those folks become speakers and then get an agent and go the traditional route. I have spoken to some of them, and many of them are not pleased with the results of the book royalties. They like the fact that their speaking fee is high, however, they would have liked to have had a line of sight to the quality of the book, the production schedule, the contents of the book, and their ability to do what I talk about when publishing, which is the optimization piece and the monetization piece. And just very quickly, optimization is beginning the author-reader relationship, the front matter. And then monetization is the back matter, the opportunity for the author-reader relationship to deepen, to say, well, how else can I hire you? And so when you are traditionally published, generally speaking, the front matter and the back matter is geared toward creating the publisher-reader relationship, not the author-reader relationship. And the back matter doesn't allow the author to say, here is what else I do, i.e., I'm a keynote speaker, here's how you hire me. I know some very well-compensated, self-published authors who make 25,000, 35,000, 50,000 per keynote, and they are 100% indie. Joanna: I think the point is that you can choose your route, and it doesn't matter, you can make it work in whatever way you want. So let's get into your latest book, which is, You Must Market a Book. Now, hopefully, anyone listening to this show already knows that you have to do that. But you talk about the importance of the book marketing mindset, which I feel is sometimes missed out as people jump straight into strategies and tactics. What is the book marketing mindset? And why is it so important? Honoree: I believe that the marketing mindset is understanding that for a book to be successful, and that is in whatever way the author defines success in order to hit their vision, is they have to understand that they are going to have to share about their book. They're going to have to market their book, they're going to have to talk about it, they're going to have to share about it, they're going to have to email about it, they're going to have to talk one on one, they're going to have to talk one to ma

Who are the Choctaw people and how can authors write authentic Native Americans in their books? How can we research diverse characters and include a diverse cast without worrying about cancel culture? Sarah Elisabeth Sawyer talks about how her Choctaw heritage influences her books. In the intro, the Pilgrimage Kickstarter is done — thanks to all backers and I'll be in touch soon; With a Demon's Eye on my store and pre-order elsewhere; Opportunities in 2023 [Ask ALLi Podcast]. Today's show is sponsored by Draft2Digital, where you can get free ebook formatting, free distribution to multiple stores, and a host of other benefits. Get your free Author Marketing Guide at draft2digital.com/penn Sarah Elisabeth Sawyer is a historical fiction author, speaker, course creator and Choctaw storyteller. The Smithsonian's National Museum of the American Indian honored her as a literary artist for her work in preserving Choctaw Trail of Tears stories, and she is the creator of the Fiction Writing: American Indians digital course. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Who are the Choctaw people? How to include representation without being stereotypical Researching cultural callbacks to include in your writing How to use oral history from tribes in your research Writing diverse characters outside of our personal experience Creating well-rounded characters when writing diversity You can find Sarah at ChoctawSpirit.com or her course at AmericanIndians.FictionCourses.com Image generated by Joanna Penn on Midjourney. Transcript of Interview with Sarah Elisabeth Sawyer Joanna: Sarah Elisabeth Sawyer is a historical fiction author, speaker, course creator and Choctaw storyteller. The Smithsonian's National Museum of the American Indian honored her as a literary artist for her work in preserving Choctaw Trail of Tears stories. And she is the creator of the Fiction Writing: American Indians digital course. So welcome to the show, Sarah. Sarah: Thank you, Joanna. Halito. Sv hohchifo yvt Sarah Elisabeth Sawyer. Chahta Sia Hoke. Hi, everyone. My name is Sarah Elisabeth Sawyer, and I am Choctaw. And it's just such a delight to be on your podcast, Joanna. Joanna: I love that. And of course, we have listeners from over 200 countries. Perhaps you can first explain, what is Choctaw, anyway? And how does that relate to your writing?  Also, please advise on the preferred terminology because we mentioned American Indian, which I thought was not allowed anymore. So tell us about that. Sarah: Oh, I will try to give you the short answer on that one, but let me first tell you about Choctaws and my Choctaw people. So we are an American Indian tribe, originally in the southeastern United States. Primarily Mississippi was our homelands, and that's where my ancestors came from before we were forced to basically sign a treaty, the Treaty of Dancing Rabbit Creek, which ceded the last of the Choctaw homelands for lands in Indian Territory, or what is now the state of Oklahoma.  So we had the Trail of Tears in the 1830s, where about 20,000 Choctaws were removed and came across the trail over 400 miles to the new homelands. And it is estimated that around 2000 died, and that's why it became known as a Trail of Tears and Death. Thankfully, our Choctaw people are very resilient, and we rebuilt the tribe and the nation to what is now the Choctaw Nation of Oklahoma. And we're the third largest federally recognized tribe in the United States. There are also still the Mississippi Choctaws, the Mississippi Band of Choctaws, who remained in Mississippi and were federally recognized in the 20th century. And we have some pockets of Choctaws really everywhere. I meet Choctaws everywhere that I go. There's a large contingent in California, during the Dust Bowl, the 1930s, many of them migrated out from Oklahoma. But there were over 500 nations here in America prior to European contact. So the Choctaws were among that, but each tribe were distinct. And how that relates to my writing, I have seven Choctaw, what I call my Choctaw Heritage books, where I feature our Choctaw history and culture. I do a lot of research and interviews, and we'll get into that a little bit later. I have seven of those books that I've based around my Choctaw history and culture. The terminology, boy, that's the big question. And you're going to get different answers depending on who you speak with. So I did decide to title my course, Fiction Writing: American Indians. That's still one of the really dominant terms in Indian country. We say, the National Museum of American Indian, and there are just tons of organizations that still go with American Indian. Native American is considered the politically correct term. A lot of natives do reject that term. And then you'll meet those that completely reject the term American Indian and are offended whenever I use that sometimes. So the term Indian itself alone has been so abused and used derogatorily, that you just have to be careful and really understand how and why you're using it. And so actually, my favorite terminology right now is First Americans. And we have the First American Museum in Oklahoma City that opened up recently, and I love that they went with that name. But depending on who you're asking, you'll get a different answer. Now, the most correct way, like for me, I don't necessarily say typically that I'm American Indian, or I'm Native American, I say I am Choctaw. And that's the most correct way to refer to someone is by their tribal affiliation, if you can. Joanna: And forgive me, I just don't know much about this. And I'm sure some people listening don't either. I mean, we have in our mind a sort of monolithic group of people, and I know of some tribes, but I'd never heard of Choctaw before you emailed me. And I was like, wow, okay. I think we hear about like Navajo, for example, as a sort of one. I think probably because I've been to the Grand Canyon and stuff like that. So I feel like for many people listening, this might be the first time. But it's the same in a lot of different countries, right? There might be an indigenous people, but they will be made up of lots of different people. Like for example, on my Books and Travel Podcast has an Australian Aboriginal lady and they also have hundreds of different groups and lots of different languages. So I love that you shared your language there as well. So you've told us a bit more about your Choctaw side, but — Tell us a bit more about how you got into writing and a bit more about your history. Sarah: Oh, absolutely. I'm one of those that I always knew I wanted to be a writer. I know some people discover that later in life. I'm just one of those that when I was five, I wrote my first story. And it was just little blocks of sentences, I wrote them on sticky notes, and my brother illustrated it, but I had a story about kindness. And I was so shy, I knew I would not be able to ever say it, never be able to speak it. And so I wrote it down as a story. I just continued writing through childhood and my teen years, and got away from it a bit. And then when I was 23, over a decade ago, I can say, God brought writing back into my life, and I joined an association that we did flash fiction every week. So I wrote over 60 of those, all different genres, really just exploring my voice and my style as a writer. And in 2013, I got into indie publishing and haven't looked back. Joanna: That's great. It's fantastic. Actually, I was going to say around the American Indian thing, is that it's almost this sort of search engine optimization because that's still the term that people might search for. In the same way — well, not in the same way — but similarly, self-publishing. A lot of us use the term self-publishing, even though we don't do it ourselves, because people actually search for it and that's what they ask about. Whereas you just said ‘indie publishing,' and that's what we say within the group, but outside the group, people say self-publishing. So I imagine it's kind of the same. It's like when you're in the group, you have different language to outside the group. So all of this is words and understanding. It's so interesting. We are talking about this idea of heritage today. And of course, there are lots of people of different races and groups who don't write about their heritage, or may write a sort of bigger American story or not about a specific group. Why is writing about your heritage so important to you? Sarah: That's an excellent question. I love that one. Because that is when I began my writing career in earnest, that's what I was drawn to. I wanted to write Trail of Tears stories. The biggest example I can give you, though, is Choctaws, like our history and culture is so familiar to us, but there are people who around the world like you that have never even heard of the Choctaw people.  For me, most of the stereotypes and the conceptions that people have about indigenous people, and especially Native Americans, American Indians, comes from media, it comes from entertainment. And that's how we influence culture. And so since people didn't know about my history and culture, very specifically the Choctaw Code Talkers of World War I. So a lot of people have heard of the Navajo, you mentioned the Navajos, and they are one of the largest tribes in the United States. And they had the Navajo Code Talkers in the Marines during World War II, but very few people know that code talking started in World War I and the Choctaws were among the first, and really the only ones, who developed an actual code during World War I, there in France.  I would ask

What are the benefits of selling direct? Why might using your face to advertise your books be a good idea? What might be the future of selling direct? Steve Pieper talks about these things and more. In the intro, ACX lowering audiobook prices, Chokepoint Capitalism, Audiblegate, Copyright valuation [Dean Wesley Smith]; courses on copyright; Happy Money; Write to Riches; Failing to predict the future [James Altucher]; Pilgrimage Kickstarter (until 5 Feb, 2023), then find it here. Today's show is sponsored by ProWritingAid, writing and editing software that goes way beyond just grammar and typo checking. With its detailed reports on how to improve your writing and integration with Scrivener, ProWritingAid will help you improve your book before you send it to an editor, agent or publisher. Check it out for free or get 25% off the premium edition at www.ProWritingAid.com/joanna Steve Pieper is a USA Today best-selling thriller author under the name Lars Emmerich. He's also an entrepreneur and business consultant, specializing in digital marketing and selling direct. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Reasons to write under a pen name Selling wide to create multiple income streams Potential problems with exclusivity Benefits of selling direct and accessing customer data The empowerment of controlling your intellectual property and author business Humanizing yourself as an author to create a more relatable brand Author marketing mastery through optimization NFTs and how they tie into the future of direct sales You can find Steve Pieper at AMMOauthor.com or under his pen name at Lars.buzz Transcript of Interview with Steve Pieper Joanna: Steve Pieper is a USA Today best-selling thriller author under the name Lars Emmerich. He's also an entrepreneur and business consultant specializing in digital marketing and selling direct. So welcome to the show, Steve. Steve: Thank you very much. It's a privilege and a pleasure. Joanna: Oh, I'm excited to talk to you today. So first up — Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and publishing. Steve: That's a great question. I started off as an F-16. Pilot, I was actually in pilot training the first time—I think maybe this was the first time—I read a Tom Clancy novel. And the way that he wove all of those different stories together was just fascinating to me. The idea that something is happening in plain sight, but there's a much deeper meaning behind it, that was also very fascinating to me. So I think that's probably the first time I hatched the idea that maybe I would like to write thrillers like that.  It wasn't until maybe 19-ish years later, when I found myself traveling all over the country to sit in boring meetings and needing something to do productively with my off time that I really got serious about writing books and came back to it. Joanna: So tell us a bit more about how your entrepreneurial background fits into writing and publishing. Did you choose the indie route from the beginning? Steve: From the get-go, I had zero interest in the traditional publishing route, just because I looked at the contracts. I realized this is not a terrific deal, really, at all. And of course, it's terrific if that's the only deal that you have available. But when I got serious about writing books, it was during the Joe Konrath Gold Rush era, you know, when there were more Kindles than books available on Kindle kind of a thing. So the opportunity space really seemed wide open at that point for independent publishing rather than trying to go the traditional route. Joanna: So I think that that was around 2009. I mean, some listeners won't even have heard of Joe Konrath, which is kind of crazy for those of us who've been around a while because he was an early adopter. But of course, I think he had around 100 books from traditional publishing or at least 50 books that he put into indie, and that's how he kind of started. But you were starting from zero, right, back in 2009. So tell us where you are now. How many thriller books do you have out there? Steve: Not enough, is always the answer. I'm allegedly working on my thirteenth. I say allegedly, because these other projects keep coming up. Like we were talking about earlier, I have a few too many interests, and I'm involved in a few too many businesses. So I'm doing what I feel is a relatively poor job of juggling all of the things. Most are in the same main series. All of them are either in the series or spin offs with some of my favorite characters from the series. Joanna: Tell us why you wrote under a pen name. Steve: Well, at the time, I had a day job and a security clearance, and some of my characters do some crazy things. I didn't want to be mistaken for my characters, and so I thought that I would try to keep the world separate. It was funny though, one time I walked into a classified meeting in a very dark room behind a vaulted door, and one of the bigwig participants said, “Ladies and gentlemen, Mr. Lars Emmerich is here to join us today.” So I figured the cat was out of the bag. Joanna: That's great. I mean, I also find that I like writing fiction under a different name, J.F. Penn, to my nonfiction, and it's almost like there are two personas. Does it help you creatively? Steve: Absolutely. I've come to realize that Lars Emmerich is kind of a character himself. I speak of him in the third person. When I talk about the book business, shorthand around our house is just Lars. Like Lars earned X today, I'll tell my wife. Or my wife will say, “How's Lars doing today?” And so it kind of has taken on a persona of its own. It does give you a little more freedom. Joanna: It's a funny you should say that because my husband says —Morgan Sierra is one of my main characters—and he's like, “does Morgan want to go to Vienna next month?” She's like my alter ego. So yes, it's funny how we do that, but I do think it helps creatively. Now let's get into the business side because you're well-known now in the author community around selling direct. Why did you decide to focus on selling direct to readers? Steve: Well, I was doing what we were all doing. I guess this was maybe 2017-2018ish, I was using advertising—I have a long history in digital advertising—and I was using some of what Mark Dawson was teaching, and I was combining some of that with the things that I had learned before, and with some degree of success on Amazon. One day, I got an email from Amazon saying, “Hey, we've looked at your account. There's something suspicious. We're not going to pay you.” And I was quite alarmed because, to my knowledge, I had done nothing wrong at any point ever. And I wrote them, I took a minute to calm down, and then I wrote them a polite email saying, “Hey, can you help me understand what's happened? And what do I need to fix? And what's going on here?”  I clicked send, I got a new cup of coffee, I came back to my desk, and the reply had already arrived in my inbox. And the reply said that we have reviewed your case, and we have decided to uphold our decision, so we're not going to pay you. And also it admonished me to be very careful with your account, but it gave me no clue what they were mad about. And I never actually spoke to a human. So I sort of realized, this doesn't feel like a healthy business relationship. I really need to do more of controlling my own destiny. So let me see if I can't just sell these books directly to customers. And that worked. Joanna: It's so interesting, it feels like at the moment, and it might just be anecdotal or noise, but — a lot more people seem to be talking about problems with Amazon accounts. And you know, things have changed every year, obviously, since the KDP was launched. But it does feel like more and more authors are having problems. And of course, when your account is closed, or there's a problem, they don't pay royalties. And if you're paying for ads, that can be a real problem. Steve: For sure. And really, for me, it was just the lack of courtesy and the response. It's okay, I mean things happen. There are so many accounts, they have to check them algorithmically. They can't do it by hand for every single account, I understand. But somebody ought to be available to help clarify, and that wasn't the case. So I realized that either they're ill-intentioned, I don't think that's the case, or they're just grown too big to really be able to care all that much about individual authors. And so either way, though, for me, as an individual author, the result was the same, which is I didn't feel comfortable having every one of my eggs in that Amazon basket. Joanna: Of course, you still sell books on Amazon. Steve: Yes. Joanna: And I think that's the other thing, isn't it? I feel like when we talk about selling direct people think, oh, that means you're ditching everything else.  You're ultimately wide. Do you sell everywhere? Steve: I do. I am ultimately wide. And it's really interesting because the most reliable way I've discovered to improve my Amazon sales is to just advertise my direct sales. And we see a number of authors are doing this direct sales process, and we see it over and over and over again. So it's called cross-channel effects. It's kind of a nerdy marketing term, but it is a really effective way. It's kind of like bonus money. Your direct sales system makes money for you, and this big Amazon windfall comes in as well. So I was surprised, but pleasantly so. And so it's one of the things we advise folks to do. Don't fire Amazon completely, keep them in your arsenal, but just don'

What do you need to consider when writing travel memoir? How fear of judgment and fear of failure are real issues even for established authors, and more in these selected excerpts from interviews with J.F. Penn around Pilgrimage: Lessons Learned from Solo Walking Three Ancient Ways. In this episode, I talk about: How Pilgrimage fits across several sub-categories of the travel genre and the perils of writing cross-genre  Fear of sharing personal aspects in the memoir, fear of launch, fear of failure, fear of judgment, and being terrified of doing a Kickstarter (recorded several days before the launch) How journals can be the basis of writing a travel memoir, structuring a book around theme, and why you have to think of the reader Jo Frances Penn with Pilgrimage I have a Kickstarter running as this goes out for my new travel memoir / solo walking book, Pilgrimage: Lessons Learned from Solo Walking Three Ancient Ways, and I’ve been doing interviews on the topic on various shows, so I wanted to share some snippets. It might also introduce you to new shows that you might enjoy and you can find them all on your podcast app, wherever you’re listening to this. The clips are from Travel Writing World, Wish I’d Known Then, and Sacred Steps, and I was also on Into the Woods. I’ve included different clips on my Books and Travel Podcast, more about the walking than the writing side, so you can also listen there.  I also wanted to let you know that we reached the stretch goal — even though I was scared of not making it! All backers will get an extra audio with a transcript on how I turned hundreds of pages of hand-written journal entries and hundreds of photos into a finished travel memoir. This will only go to backers, so even if you’re not that interested in pilgrimage, you might want my tips on writing travel memoir, and you can back the campaign with just a few pounds.  Just go to JFPenn.com/pilgrimage and that will redirect to the Kickstarter until 5 Feb, after which it will take you to where the book will be available later in the year. So let’s get into it.  In this clip from the Travel Writing World podcast with Jeremy Bassetti, I talk about how Pilgrimage is sits across different sub-genres of the travel niche.  J.F. Penn – Pilgrimage and Perspective Transcript of the clip from Travel Writing World Jeremy Bassetti: You'd mentioned your journal and leaning into your journal while writing this book. It has kind of this memoir or travelogue component, it has an account of your pilgrimages, but it's also kind of like a guidebook, if I may, for the idea of going on a pilgrimage itself.  So, it does many things this book, but I was wondering how would you describe it? Jo Frances Penn: Well, you know how difficult this is!  Originally I thought I would write travel guides to the routes. I thought I would just have three travelogue-type books. And then I thought I would do a travel memoir about all the travels of my life.  And then I realized after I finished the Camino that I did have a personal arc, a character arc. Memoir, I think is defined by some kind of transformational arc in the person.  So, I mean, you can go on a trip like your photography trip to Bolivia, for example. It doesn't have to change the direction of your life. It can just be a trip for taking photos and whatever.  In terms of how I would describe the book, it's kind of a travel memoir, so it is a personal, emotional, spiritual transformation, but it's also a self-help guide for people who want to do solo walking. And I put in the appendices some very practical things, including accommodation and gear and stuff like that.  So, I feel like it can do both, but of course, that makes it very difficult in terms of a particular genre. I guess it falls through the gaps of so many sub-genres, but I hope it's both useful to people who consider the idea of pilgrimage, but also those who practically want help. Jeremy Bassetti: You mentioned that you originally set out to write travel guides and also like a memoir, so I was wondering if the evolution of the idea of the book happened as you were writing it, or did that happen in the earlier stages when you were trying to figure out what it was exactly you were going to write? Jo Frances Penn: It really happened right at the end there, once I came back from the Camino. I mean, I had over a hundred thousand words in a Scrivener project. And like yourself, I've read very many travel books over decades. And so I had a lot of quotes and I had a lot of musings, and I just didn't know what the book was going to be until I returned from the Camino and I realized that I had discovered home, for example, which is something I really hadn't felt before, which is quite weird. But I think many travelers feel this, like, where is my home? And I did kind of discover that.  I also had the sort of midlife realizations around things. I had so much material, and this is the problem with writing travel books. Of course you can end up with so much material but when I read it, so much was repetitive. And this is a danger of the travelogue, I think. I mean, if you are walking pilgrimage routes or any multi-day walking, every day is the same. So I ended up just doing one small chapter on the pilgrim's day, but it's a very simple life, right? The bigger question is — what is the transformation? So yes, I really didn't know until the end. And in fact, even my book cover. My audience thought they wanted this particular cover, sort of a commercial travel guide cover with blue skies and sun.  And I ended up choosing one of my own pictures from the St. Cuthbert’s Way, which is one of my photos of a hill to climb and stormy skies, which is far more of what pilgrimage is to me, and for probably most people. It’s more truthful. So yes, pilgrimage is a challenge and writing a book about it is certainly a challenge.  My discussion with Jeremy continues into why walk a pilgrimage when I am not religious, why walking is healing and pilgrimage in particular can heal deeper wounds of the soul, how the gifts of pilgrimage come with hindsight, why we travel, and how to figure out what kind of travel book to write.  You can listen to the rest of the episode on Travel Writing World on your favourite podcast app. Jeremy also has interviews with travel writers like Pico Iyer, Colin Thubron, and many more on his show, or check out his website TravelWritingWorld.com  Jeremy has also been on this podcast talking about the different sub-genres of travel writing, tackling imposter syndrome, and more.  In this next clip, I’m on the Wish I’d Known Then Podcast with Sara Rosett and Jami Albright, and we’ve known each other for years so we have a great in-depth chat. In this excerpt we talk about fear — fear of sharing personal aspects in the memoir, fear of launch, fear of failure, fear of judgment, oh my goodness, so many fears going into this, for sure!  Transcript of the clip from Wish I'd Known Then Jami: Speaking of things being scary, was it scary to write a lot of personal things? I mean, I'm an oversharer, so for me that would not be that hard. But I know you're not. Jo Frances Penn: It's interesting because of course we all have our boundaries, right? We have all our lines and of course I do share, I share a lot and have done since I was online in 2008.  And also in my fiction, I share a lot of my thoughts on like religion through my characters. So Morgan Sierra particularly in my ARKANE thriller series has thoughts about religion and various things that come from my own experience or some of my travel experiences are fictionalized in other books. But this is the first memoir where it's like, this is actually me and it's not fictionalized and so it is really kind of emotionally revealing. To me anyway, I feel the book is emotionally revealing in a way that I haven't been before, and that's scary.  It's also the fear of judgment. I always have fear of judgment about any book. I don't know what I'm scared of, but I'm really scared!  I mean, I almost feel now that the book is done. I cannot change it. And in fact, I only gave it to my husband when it was finished. And I only gave it to my mum when it was finished. And those two people, I was like, I really hope they don't say I can't publish it because it's already done. I actually gave them the hardback.  Sara: Oh wow.  Jo: And yes, because I felt like it's my story, and if they don't want me to publish it, I'm going to have to argue that. Thankfully they both said it was okay. Although my mum was sad because she felt like she didn't know necessarily at the time, what I was going through, but I said to her, and this will be true if anyone's having mental health issues, sometimes when you are going through things, you cannot ask for help because you are in the darkness, right?  Sara: So you don't even realize you're going through things until you look back later and go, oh, that was not a good time sometimes. I'm in self-denial a lot about a lot of things, so I understand that Jo Frances Penn: Right. But that's why journaling is so important. I mean, I read some of the journal entries that I've put in the book and I'm like, I don't even know that person. Sara: Well, speaking of fear, let's talk about the Kickstarter because I totally identify with being a little worried about — a lot worried — about the Kickstarter. Talk to us about the fear around the Kickstarter Or maybe someone may not do a Kickstarter, but they might do a launch — and when I did my Kickstarter, I was like, okay, I remember now. I used to feel this way when I launched a book, and now I'm more in the routine of launching a book, so it's not a

How can you use AI tools to ethically and responsibly create in whatever sphere you love? What are some of the tools and why are creative direction, voice, and taste, so important? I discuss these issues and more in a solo introduction and an interview with Oliver Altair. In the first 28 mins of the podcast, I give an extended introduction about the various legal cases around AI and copyright, my thoughts on the best way to approach it for your creative work, and how to use AI tools ethically and responsibly. I've included the transcript below with lots of links and further resources, and you can find more at TheCreativePenn.com/future. If you'd like to learn more, you can get 50% off my ebook and audiobook on Artificial Intelligence, Blockchain, and Virtual Worlds if you buy direct, and you can get 50% off my course, The AI-Assisted Author. Just use discount code: FEB23 at checkout for either. Today's show is sponsored by my wonderful patrons who fund my brain so I have time to think about and discuss these futurist topics impacting authors. If you support the show, you also get the extra monthly patron-only Q&A audio. You can support the show at www.patreon.com/thecreativepenn Oliver Altair is a dark fantasy author, a digital artist and creator of the Ravensfield Collection. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below. The interview starts at 28:33 mins. Show Notes The creation of the Ravensfield Collection using AI art How AI art can be used as a marketing tool for authors Available tools for an AI-augmented creative How to write AI prompts to achieve the best results Concerns about intellectual property when training models What are the different kinds of Creative Commons licenses? The importance of creative confidence, voice, and taste, for making art with AI tools Generative writing tools as a brainstorming co-pilot You can find Oliver Altair at OliverAltair.com. You can view the Ravensfield Collection at Ravensfield.art. Header image by Joanna Penn on Midjourney. Transcript of the solo introduction on generative AI with Joanna Penn Before we get into the interview, I just want to add some over-arching comments as I’m getting a lot of emails about generative AI for art and obviously for words. It feels like a lot of people are going through now what I did a few years back when I first heard about all this, so I understand how it feels to be kind of scared, kind of excited, kind of unsure as to what we can do with all this, and of course, you have to spend some time figuring out your position on it all and that’s not helped by the hyperbole, misunderstanding, and rage fuelled by press and social media. There is a real sense of fear and confusion in the media and amongst different kinds of creators.  But instead of jumping into the outrage, take a deep breath and do some research for yourself from different points of view — and of course, I am only one point of view!  As I have talked about many times over the last few years, these generative AI systems are tools, and new technology always enables new forms of creative expression and helps creators of all kinds achieve new things.  Photography didn’t kill painting or drawing, online gaming didn’t kill tabletop games, ebooks didn’t kill beautiful print editions, synthesised music didn’t kill the live concert. In fact, all these things made the personal touch even more important.  Yes, there are many issues with generative AI, I know it’s not all rainbows and unicorns! Tools can also be weapons, to borrow the title of Brad Smith’s book on the promise and peril of the digital age — which was more about the disruption of the internet which has a similar dichotomy — but we can use these tools responsibly and ethically and encourage others to do the same. Let’s first take a step back  These tools are not new, they have just been noticed by people outside the tech industry since ChatGPT was launched in late November 2023. I started commenting about generative AI on the show back in 2016, and have done many interviews on it since then — you can find all the backlist episodes at TheCreativePenn.com/future In July 2019, I did a solo episode on 9 Ways That Artificial Intelligence will Disrupt Authors and the Publishing Industry in the next decade, episode 437 if you want to listen. My very first point was “Non-fiction books, blog posts, and news articles will be written by AI,” which is certainly happening with GPT3, ChatGPT, tools like Jasper, and more. I also said that “Copyright law will be challenged as books are used to train AIs which then produce work in the voice of established authors.”  The first legal cases around copyright law have now been brought by artists as their art is being used to train models that can be used to produce work in the voice of established artists — it’s essentially the same thing as I wrote about.  There are a few legal cases about generative AI right now As ever, I am not a lawyer/attorney, just an author, audiobook narrator and podcaster. I have an interview coming in the next few months with an IP lawyer on all this so we’ll circle back to it as the year progresses. Three artists have filed a class action lawsuit against Midjourney, Stable Diffusion and DreamUp for scraping their images and using their intellectual property without consent.  I recommend listening to the excellent Hard Fork podcast episode from 20 Jan, 2023 which has a segment with artist Sarah Andersen on the lawsuit. She says they are not looking to shut down the technology, but they want consent so artists can opt their images in for training, rather than opt-out as default. They also want credit if their work is used, and compensation for any harm or infringement, and also for licensing data for training. Getty Images are also suing Stable Diffusion for unlawfully scraping images from its site. In an article on The Verge, Getty Images CEO, Craig Peters “compares the current legal landscape in the generative AI scene to the early days of digital music, where companies like Napster offered popular but illegal services before new deals were struck with license holders like music labels. Peters said Getty was not interested in financial damages or stopping the development of AI art tools, but in creating a new legal status quo. There are ways of building generative models that respect intellectual property.” Rights Tech also has an article about the ins and outs of AI art and copyright, noting “While the litigation against image generators may be new, the debate over whether works produced by AI systems trained on copyrighted works should be considered derivative works under copyright law, and for which a license therefore should have been obtained, is not new.” There’s also another class action lawsuit where Microsoft, GitHub, and OpenAI are being sued around GitHub Co-pilot being “trained on public repositories of code scraped from the web, many of which are published with licenses that require anyone reusing the code to credit its creators. Copilot has been found to regurgitate long sections of licensed code without providing credit — prompting this lawsuit that accuses the companies of violating copyright law on a massive scale.” The Verge  Some people have emailed me suggesting that these cases will end generative AI before it really gets going, but while these cases are interesting and important, none are intended to shut down generative AI tools.  They are intended to ensure creators and owners of intellectual property are fairly compensated for training models. So regardless of the outcome, AI development will continue apace. The genie is truly out of the bottle.  And it’s not just businesses that want AI development to continue. I was part of a submission to the UK government on AI and copyright last year along with the Alliance of Independent Authors, and in reading the associated documents, there was a clear attempt to balance reward for creative work with the need to encourage AI innovation, not stifle it. The US government would presumably be even more keen on ensuring the continuing development of AI. After all, do you really think the US wants another country to be predominant in AI? Read AI SuperPowers by Kai-Fu Lee if you want a glimpse of the stakes. Personally, I think the court cases will probably result in some kind of settlement fund for those artists who can prove damages, a change in copyright law to allow for licensing to train models — or it might even be made part of fair use — and there will be an opt-out for anyone who doesn’t want their art/words/music/whatever to be used in training data or used as a prompt. Fine-tuning models to specific requirements will become much more accessible.  I wrote about this in my book on Artificial Intelligence, Blockchain, and Virtual Worlds, where I proposed a new license to train models with our work in copyright where the original creator gets paid, which would definitely fit with what is being discussed. For example, a group of action-adventure thriller writers could get together and train a model with our work and then license it to other writers. I’m up for that as I discussed with Charlene Putney on episode 660.  So AI is not going away. It will only become more pervasive in every industry.  Andrew Ng, professor at Stanford, also worked at Google Brain, Baidu AI, and co-founder of Coursera, said that “AI is the new electricity,” in that it will be incorporated into every industry, and the creative sphere is just one tiny part of the transformation. He also has a great free course on A

How can small, daily habits make you more successful as an author? How can you use the 80/20 rule in your author business? How can you create multiple streams of income when you sell mostly print? Marc Reklau shares his tips in the interview. In the intro, my Kickstarter for Pilgrimage is live!; Spotify's promotion codes [The Hotsheet, FindawayVoices]; publishing 2023 [Carly Watters]; Writer Beware round-up; Hitting bestseller lists [Reedsy; my USA Today breakdown]; Nick Thacker's dictation course; Today's podcast sponsor is Findaway Voices, which gives you access to the world's largest network of audiobook sellers and everything you need to create and sell professional audiobooks. Take back your freedom. Choose your price, choose how you sell, choose how you distribute audio. Check it out at FindawayVoices.com. Marc Reklau is the best-selling author of 13 books on habits, productivity and happiness. He's also a speaker, consultant and coach. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes The importance of consistency to reach your goals Different streams of income as a nonfiction author Creating a series from your nonfiction books to increase sales How to make money in foreign language markets Taking your books wide to expand your income streams Why successful authors sell more books than struggling authors You can find Marc at MarcReklau.com Transcript of Interview with Mark Reklau Joanna: Marc Reklau is the best-selling author of 13 books on habits, productivity and happiness. He's also a speaker, consultant and coach. So welcome to the show, Marc. Marc: Hello. It's such a pleasure to be on your show, Joanna. Joanna: Oh, I'm excited to talk to you. So first up — Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing. Marc: Yeah, that's a good story. Because actually, I never had it in my life plan to become a writer. But nine years ago, I was fired from my job, and I also had done a life coach training, so I was very naive, and I said, “Yes, I'm going to be a coach now and a consultant, and I will have many clients.” But it didn't work out as I wanted. At the same time, in my coaching training, I noticed that there are many, many exercises, that if you do them, they really work. It's just nobody does them, like 98% of the people don't do them. And it's like goal setting, or meditation or practice gratitude. Then the idea of the book came up and I said, I want to give people the tools at least to have a happy life and to have a productive life. And it's really so obvious that you only have to do the exercises. Although doing the exercises and doing them constantly is more difficult than one thinks because we like to distract ourselves or something. So that was the idea of my book, 30 Days: Change your habits, Change your life, which was actually going under the working title 101 Things You Can Do While You're Waiting to Win the Lottery because all the people I met, I lived in Spain in that time, and it was the end of the financial crisis, and all the conversations were like, “Oh, well, yeah, everything is bad. But well, now it's Friday, maybe I win the lottery.” And of course, most people never win the lottery. So I was like, if you would do for one year, any exercise, or mix, like getting up early, writing 1000 words a day, do goal setting, I'm sure in one year, you will be in a better place than you are now, or in an even better place if you're already in a good place. So that was the idea. That's how I started. And then thanks to three straight BookBub deals, it did pretty well, this book. And then it happened to me, what happens probably to most of us, so we will finish one book and you already have the idea for the next book. And that's how the last nine years went by. Joanna: I love that. I want to come back on the waiting to win the lottery thing because I feel that that actually has a parallel in publishing, in that people are like, oh, well, this one book, if I just get the agent, if I just get the book deal, if I just get the film deal, or the TV deal, I will make a million, and I can retire. And yet, as you said, it's actually the daily exercise of writing, finding readers, publishing. Have you used that positive, consistent mindset as an indie author? Marc: Exactly the way you said it, right. So my goal was never to sell 600,000 books or become an international bestseller or sign a publishing deal in Japan. My goal was write 1000 words a day or write 2000 words a day. And I also have to admit that Amazon ads was a huge game changer for me. Because before, I was, I would like to call it a poor author, nearly getting by, burning away my savings, burning away a life insurance. But then with the rise of Amazon ads, suddenly, I could multiply my sales by 20. And it was the same thing, really Joanna, since four and a half years, I do one hour a day of an Amazon ads. But I do that hour every day, which is like managing ads and making new ads. And this brought the huge book sales that I have now. So now I'm a six figure author, multiple six figure author, but it really started four and a half years ago when I said, okay, this mindset, do something every day. Even if it's an hour or two hours, it will multiply with time. Joanna: It's interesting, like you said, the exercises. And to me, it's also including physical movement. I wear an Apple Watch, and I actually really love closing my rings on my Apple watch every day. And there's one for exercise, one for movement and one for standing. And when you actually track these things, you realize sometimes even just standing up once an hour is something that unless you have reminders about, it can be difficult. So like you say, these kinds of daily practices, these daily exercises, can make all the difference. Why do we find it so hard to do things consistently? Marc: I think it's because we want short-term gratification. We don't look far along ahead. It's the same thing, like, we say, okay, now I'm going to walk 10 kilometres or 15 kilometers a day, but after three days, our legs hurt, everything hurts, and we say, okay, I'll wait until next year for the New Year's Eve to make a new goal. But actually maybe walking two miles a day would be easier on us, but if we do it for a year, at the end, we have walked more. And this works like everything else. Also, like, we say, okay, I will save 300 pounds this month of money. And then the end of the month comes and you see, oh, no, it's not real, this month, it won't happen, so it will be next month, and then it never happens. But if you would say, I save one pound a day, then it's 30 pounds a month. It's not as spectacular as 300, but you actually have it. And then in a year, it's 360 pounds. You understand what I want to say? So this little by little, it works everywhere. It's really amazing. And it's so sad that we don't get it because our brains are probably wired the other way. But once you get it, it works everywhere. It works with a diet, it works with gym, it works with writing books, so not writing one this one big book, but write 2000 words a day, and in a year, you probably have three books. I probably have because I write very short books. Joanna: Yes, well, let's come to your business model. Because like you said, you write short books, you write these habit books, productivity books. And you don't have to write long books when you have a niche in nonfiction. And of course, for fiction too, there are models where people write shorter books. But tell us about your different streams of income. How does your business work together with all the things you do right now? Marc: Yeah, I'm kind of a strange guy because normally nonfiction authors, especially coaches or consultants, they write a couple of books, and the books bring them clients for their business. And for me, this never happened. So I tried everything. I tried the online courses, I tried coaching, consulting, conferences, speaking, but it never was enough to have a good life. And then when I was burning away my savings and my life insurance, I said, okay, and I went really, really, really deep. And I thought what do I really, really, really want to do? And then the answer was: I want to sell many books, I want to live off book sales. And then I got kind of obsessed with it. I studied people who sell lots of books, which mostly are fiction writers, not nonfiction writers. I found our friend Mark Dawson, did the advertising course, and suddenly, I sold many books. And now I do a little bit of speaking, I do a little bit of consulting, but it's like 10% of my business. I can really afford to say no many times. And then the fun thing is, because of multiple income streams, you wouldn't think that about 93% of my income comes from IP. Amazon is about 50 – 60%, IngramSpark for the paperback distribution, audiobooks is growing every year. I have international rights that I was lucky to secure, like over 30 international publishing deals. And also direct sales, little by little the direct sales. So it's like atypical for nonfiction person that still 90 – 95% come from my books. But it's okay with me. Joanna: That's brilliant. Well, let's then address why your books do sell. Now, you've mentioned the ads. But we all know that ads don't make a difference if you don't have a good product. So what are the things that you did to make sure your products, your books, sell when you do ads? What are the things you would recommend for nonfiction authors who want to follow the same model? Marc: Actually, I copied Mark Dawson. Very easy. So I took everything he teaches as a fiction writer, I could apply

Do you sometimes just ‘know' when a story is right? Does something ‘click' during the writing process and suddenly things make sense? Do you lean into your curiosity and emotion when it comes to writing and marketing? If yes, you might be an intuitive writer, as Becca Syme explains in this interview. In the intro, Chokepoint Capitalism [Decoder]; Direct sales [Kris Rusch]; Amazon Ads for Authors by Ricardo Fayet; Ads for Authors course; Why I Ignored Target Reader Feedback for my Book Cover Design; ChatGPT for teachers [Hard Fork]; Pilgrimage Kickstarter. This podcast is sponsored by Kobo Writing Life, which helps authors self-publish and reach readers in global markets through the Kobo eco-system. You can also subscribe to the Kobo Writing Life podcast for interviews with successful indie authors. You can find my books for authors and my fiction here on Kobo. Becca Syme is an author, coach, and creator of the Better-Faster Academy. She is a USA Today bestselling author of small-town romance and cozy mystery and also writes the ‘Dear Writer' series of non-fiction books. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below. Show Notes How a writer knows if they are intuitive The data-gathering process of intuitive writers Learning to apply feedback while trusting your intuition Knowing when it's the right time to write your book Standing out in a crowded market by using your intuition Tips for avoiding burnout to have a sustainable author career Why we make decisions based on fear — and how to stop You can find Becca at BetterFasterAcademy.com or on her QuitCast on YouTube Image generated by Joanna Penn on Midjourney. Transcript of Interview with Becca Syme Joanna: Becca Syme is an author, coach, and creator of the Better-Faster Academy. She is a USA Today bestselling author of small-town romance and cozy mystery and also writes the ‘Dear Writer' series of non-fiction books. Today we're talking about Dear Writer, Are You Intuitive? co-written with Susan Bischoff, which was one of my books of the year in 2022. So welcome back to the show, Becca. Becca:  Thank you so much for having me. And I'm so excited to talk about this topic. I'm so glad you picked this. Joanna: Me too. As I said, I love the book. And I was reading it going, ‘oh, this is just me, this is so me.' And I wanted to bring it to my audience. We're just going to jump straight into the intuitive topic today. So let's start. What do you mean by intuition? How does a writer know they might be intuitive when it comes to their writing? Becca:  So a lot of us who are intuitive — I'm also intuitive — we know things without knowing how we know them. And a lot of that gets attributed to things like emotion or assumption, right? So if I walk into a room, and I think, “oh, everyone in here is very uncertain.” Like, I just know that and I can't point to certain data pieces of what it is that I used. And a lot of people will say that you're just making an assumption, that you don't know that is true. But what we found about intuition — and this is strengths related, but I'm not going to use any of the language because I want it to be more accessible to everyone — but there are certain behavior patterns that you have that allow you to gather data without knowing that you're gathering data. And they allow you to make connections between the data. So like when I assume that someone is feeling something, and I am actually an intuitive, and this is something I do all the time, I'm reading things, I just don't know that they're there. Usually with intuitives, you can wait a couple of hours, and then kind of deconstruct what you were thinking in the moment, and say, “oh, yeah, I saw this, and this, and this about your body language, etc.” And this isn't just emotional intuition, because of course, in the book, there are several. There are several types. But in general, intuition is the ability to know something based on data that you've taken in, that you do not have the ability in the moment to point to how you know that.  Almost always we say things like, “well, I just knew,” or “I didn't know why I made that assumption. I don't know why I made that choice.” And that can feel extremely uncertain to people who are intuitive because people who are not intuitive will try to deconstruct that and prove us wrong, or say we don't know what we're talking about, or we're making assumptions, or we're being emotional.  So I think it's really important for intuitive authors to know that is not what that means. You not being able to prove something right away in the moment doesn't mean you don't know it, or you didn't base it on data. It just means it's happening subconsciously. And then, of course, that affects storytelling. It affects marketing decisions. It affects ad running. It just affects every part of our author life. Joanna: Let's just unpack a few of these things there. So it's so funny, you use language like gathering data and deconstruct, and I feel like these are almost logical words. Like I don't associate gathering data with being intuitive. Now I know what you mean — Give us some examples of how an intuitive might gather data from the world. Becca: So let's use a writing example, just because I think some of the behavioral examples are not true for everyone. But a lot of intuitives who are writers will have watched movies, read books, listened to oral storytellers who are extremely proficient at storytelling, and they will have naturally intuited the connections between plot points, and then they will write their books according to that intuition. So do I need to know what a black moment is in order to write one? No, I don't, if I'm intuitive, because I'm intuiting, or again, I'm reading the data patterns. So like, let's look on a micro level at me listening to you tell a story. My intuition is saying, “Oh, you dropped your voice here. You changed your cadence there. And that produced this emotion in your audience.” So if I want to do that, and this is how people who are not intuitive — and I hesitate to use the word logical, because a lot of intuitives have latched onto the word, ‘I am logical' as a way to fight against that natural criticism we get about not thinking about what we do. But a lot of people who are not intuitive will consciously say those things to themselves. “Oh, you did this” or “you did that,” or “here's that device that they use.” And they can often break it apart and tell you what they're doing. Whereas most intuitives can't, unless they've acquired that skill as a defense mechanism. And almost always, they have to do it in retrospect, anyway. But like, you'll be watching a movie, and you'll see the flavor of a particular line of dialogue that produced an emotion in you, and then you'll know once you've seen that 10 or 15 times, you will know how to utilize that device in your own writing, but you could not describe to me how you do it.  I think this is the most important part for writers, is that because — We make decisions according to intuition, but those decisions are actually based on previous data gathering that we were not aware we were doing. They are actually sound decisions, we just don't realize that they are because we couldn't say, “oh, yeah, 10% I have to do this thing.” It just naturally happens when intuitives are storytelling because, again, they've assimilated that data on such a subconscious — I would argue unconscious — level because it's usually inaccessible to them.  It makes them, or us, mistrust our storytelling capacity because we hear people who can explain the mechanics behind why they make the decisions that they make. And again, the certainty and correctness axis, we assume that because they're so certain about what they do, and they're doing it correctly, that we have to be similarly certain and logical and intentional about what we do, instead of trusting that our intuition is already being intentional for us. Joanna: And it's funny, because there are psychological studies that show humans will make up a reason why we did something, even though that might not actually be the reason. So we might say, “oh, yeah, I wrote this because I know that at 10% I have to put in this, whatever, due to Save The Cat or whatever.” And yet, that might not actually be the reason. So I guess it doesn't really matter which way, but part of this interview is really talking about trusting that intuition. So from the book, I wanted to read one of the lines, which says, “Writing with intentional plot structure is not necessary for the story to be compelling.” And that comes to a bit about what you just said there. I mean, that gave me a great sigh of relief, and I'm a discovery writer. So how can we avoid forcing ourselves into a plotting box when most of the writing advice around us wants us to have this intentional plot structure? Becca: Right, the crazy part about an intuitive brain is that if you try to do it intentionally, it will not work the same way. So you, Joanna, if you sit down with a plot structure that has been given to you as though this is the exact way to do it, and then you sit down and try to write that plot structure, it is not going to have the same compelling nature that your natural storytelling would have. There are a lot of reasons for that, not the least of which is, please, if you do not believe me, read Aristotle, like read the poetics. The data samples that were used to define a lot of what we think about three act structure are so variable. Like the inciting incident, we nail it down to 10% becaus

What are the most common reasons why writers don't finish their books —and how can you overcome them in order to finish yours this year? Roz Morris gives practical writing and mindset tips. In the intro, Spotify promo codes [FindawayVoices]; Rachael Herron's money episode [How Do You Write?]; Changes at Amazon [Kris Writes, BBC]; AI as a writing co-pilot [Stark Reflections]; Hindenburg Narrator for audiobook mastering; Pilgrimage audiobook chapters [Books and Travel]. Today's show is sponsored by Ingram Spark, which I use to print and distribute my print-on-demand books to 40,000 retailers including independent bookstores, schools and universities, libraries, and more. It's your content—do more with it through IngramSpark.com. Roz Morris is a best-selling author as a ghostwriter and an award-nominated author with her own literary novels. She writes writing craft books for authors under the Nail Your Novel brand, and is also an editor, speaker and writing coach. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below. Show Notes The most common reasons that writers abandon books Creating a system for your creative process Finding the motivation to finish your book even when it gets tough The importance of research to help you keep going How to commit to finishing one project when you have multiple started Staying confident when you start doubting your book Knowing when to park a project You can find Roz at RozMorris.org Transcript of Interview with Roz Morris Joanna: Roz Morris is a best-selling author as a ghostwriter and an award nominated author with her own literary novels. She writes writing craft books for authors under the Nail Your Novel brand, and is also an editor, speaker and writing coach. Today, we're talking about why writers abandon books and how you can draft, fix and finish with confidence. And we'll have tips for both fiction and nonfiction authors. So welcome back to the show, Roz. Roz: Thank you, Joanna. It's so nice to be here again. Joanna: And this is your sixth time on the show which is amazing. It's probably been like a decade now since you've been coming on the show. Roz: Yes, it has. I was a listener from the early days, and when you contacted me and said, “do come on my show,” I thought, oh, that's brilliant because I've been listening for ages. Joanna: And over the years, we've become friends, and we've both written lots of books, and we've had a journey. But what's great is that you have so many books to help authors, and you're very wise, which is why I like talking to you. We're not going to get into your background because we've done it many times before. Let's get into the topic itself and start with a bit of an overview. What are the most common reasons that writers abandon books? Why doesn't every author just finish every book? Roz: Well, we always start on a blaze of enthusiasm and inspiration. You get terribly excited, can't wait to get to the keyboard, hammer loads of words down, and then we lose enthusiasm. And then what might happen is we grind on anyway. For most people, that's quite hard because they don't know how to do it and how to do it productively. Or we get interested in something else and start another book, and off we go again. Or we've run out of material, or we don't have enough time to actually do justice to the book and make enough regular appointments with ourselves to write it because it does take a while to write a whole book. Or we read something else and think, “oh, someone else has done it better, what's the point?” That's really why most books get abandoned. Joanna: And I wondered, because I did a survey on The Creative Penn Podcast last year, well, this year as we're recording this, last year as this goes out. And it was kind of stunning to me that this was one of the most common questions. So I did just want to ask you because you wrote this particular book about why writers abandoned books and how to sort it out. How did you know that not finishing was one of the most common issues? Roz: Maybe from talking to writers, meeting them, and they would say, “oh, well, how do you get to the end of a book?” So they'd all been able to start, and then it just failed them in some way. But I'd got quite a lot of books under my belt by that time as a ghostwriter because I used to do a lot of ghostwriting fiction. So I realized I developed a method for doing all the work necessary to go from that big bang of inspiration to start with and then finally end up with a book that was not only finished, but presentable. And I thought, I have obviously developed a system that gets me to the end and gets me through all the bad bits, because there are bad bits. And I thought, well I'll write a book about how I do that. And then it turned out that quite a lot of people found it helpful. Joanna: It is a very good book. And we're going to get into some of those things that you gave as an overview. But it's so interesting because you just mentioned there words like ‘system' and ‘method' and ‘process'. And I mean, I'm a discovery writer, but also you do take a long time to write your literary novels, in particular. And they do meander in a lot of ways and your process is very creative. How can you both have a system and a method and a process, but also be imaginative and lean into creativity? Roz: Well, I have the process to help me do worthwhile things with the more creative ideas that I have. So the process will be ways of getting the work done, ways of getting myself back on track if I've got distracted, ways of allowing myself to go down new creative avenues if I think, oh, this book needs a bit more of this kind of excitement, or I need to research something. The process gives me a kind of big framework that will allow me to control my creative urges and put them to good use. That probably sounds quite woolly. But I have ways in which I think, well, how am I going to use this? Where does it belong in the book? Does it belong in the book? Something I do is write lists of reasons to have something in the book or reasons not to have it in the book. So I think what my process does is it imposes discipline on the creativity aspect of it. So I'm very creative. I want to find the best way of using an idea. I want to find the most original way to use an idea. I want to find the deep meanings that I feel in are in an idea, which is why I take so long to write a book. Then what I also want to do is impose discipline on it so that the book is not just a sprawling mess of absolutely everything I've ever thought of. It's got purpose and a clear vision and themes and story. And my process allows me to pull everything together so that I can be creative and also create a coherent work that other people can enjoy. Joanna: So, let's get into one of the things. I mean, you mentioned starting with the blaze of enthusiasm, which then grinds to a halt. And this word ‘grinds', I think is really interesting. I feel like there's a bit of a myth that every moment of writing a book is just going to be amazing, and we're in flow, and it's like, wow, just all of this is amazing. But it feels like maybe some people lose enthusiasm, and they think that's the end of it. How does it feel when that first flush of romance is gone from a book? How do we approach that ‘grind'? Roz: That is so wise, what you've just said there. That other people think they're doing it wrong if they're not inspired all the time. But most of writing is work. It's like a diet is probably work as well. At first, you're thinking, I'm going to really get myself into the shape I want to, and I had this vision of what it will be like, and I will not be diverted from my course. And to begin with a book is like that. And then there will be bits that aren't as easy as you thought they were going to be. And very soon, that's when it's sort of like work. So what I do, is I have various ways to remind myself of the original burst of inspiration. So what I do now when I begin a book is I write myself notes that capture the particular things about the idea that gave me joy. And then I can look at them again later and think, “Oh, that is still giving me joy when I read it. How can I get back to that? Do I want to revise it?” But the joy is still there, you've captured it. It's really important to do that. Also, I build soundtracks that give me feelings that I want to put into the book. And quite a lot of those are pieces of music that just make me think my book could be this. And when I play them again, it starts that feeling again. And I also have other books that I collect, or movies that I collect, that are touchstones for the initial inspiration. So I think it's very important to keep things, you know, it's like mementos of the first moments of a romance. This is when it was a really good idea. So there's that. But then also, I think what you have to do some actual work, which may not sound very creative, but it will get you to the end. There comes a point where you can't just sit there making things up. You need to know where you're going. And most of us, I find, can hold a beginning in our heads and just write from that and blaze onwards. But after a while, we kind of run out of impetus. We're inventing stuff, and inventing stuff and inventing stuff. And then after a while, we realize it's not really going anywhere, is it? It's quite random. And unless you're very experienced, you won't then know what to do next. And that's usually the point where most writers think, oh, this isn't as easy as I thought it was gonna be. The inspiration has deserted me or I ca

How can you use paid advertising as part of your book marketing strategy? How can you reach more readers and sell more books in the year ahead? Mark Dawson provides strategies and tips in this interview. In the intro, publishing trends for 2023 [Written Word Media]; Apple AI narration; ChatGPT into Bing [The Verge]; Comments on Audible [Brandon Sanderson, Audiblegate]; TikTok ban and problems [Reuters, Rolling Stone]; my Pilgrimage Kickstarter. Today's show is sponsored by Draft2Digital, where you can get free ebook formatting, free distribution to multiple stores, and a host of other benefits. Get your free Author Marketing Guide at draft2digital.com/penn Mark Dawson is the award-winning USA Today best-selling author of the John Milton series and other thrillers, with over 6 million copies sold. He's also the co-founder of SelfPublishingFormula.com, with books, courses and events for indie authors who want to sell more books. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes How advertising has changed in the past decade The difference between paid advertising and other forms of marketing Why building your mailing list can be your best free advertising option Is it worth it to advertise a standalone book? Different ways to monetize your brand to make ads profitable What is the biggest mistake indie authors make with advertising? The effect of Apple's privacy rules on Facebook ads Using AI to create more and sell more You can find Mark at MarkJDawson.com and SelfPublishingFormula.com. Image generated by Joanna Penn on Midjourney. Transcript of Interview with Mark Dawson Joanna: Mark Dawson is the award-winning USA Today best-selling author of the John Milton series and other thrillers, with over 6 million copies sold. He's also the co-founder of SelfPublishingFormula.com, with books, courses and events for indie authors who want to sell more books. Today, we're talking about how to use paid advertising as part of your book marketing. So welcome back to the show, Mark. Mark: Hi, Jo. Thanks for having me. Third time? Fourth time? Joanna: I reckon it might be the fifth time. Mark: Oh, my goodness. Joanna: I know. We've been doing this together for a while. And in fact, that does bring us to the first question because you recently tweeted a great thread, and you did a blog post and things, about your lessons learned from a decade of being an indie author. And I reckon I was there at the beginning, would that be right? We met quite soon after you got started. Mark: I would say we met two years after that, perhaps. So I thought my decade was next November, but Amazon contacted me in early November 2022, and said, “Your anniversary is coming up. Do you mind if we post something on our Facebook feed?” And I checked, and obviously they were right. I published 2012 was my first book. So it's weird. It's a good opportunity to look back and see how things have changed. And I've been full-time since 20 — oh, goodness, I don't know now — 16, something like that. So about six, seven years. And it's been the most fantastic second career, really. I have to pinch myself sometimes to think I can still do this and make a living out of it. Joanna: And I think that's what's exciting. And I often say to people, that a lot of this journey is learning from other people who have been doing this longer or doing it differently, or who are still here. I think that's the other thing, the more the years go by, the more we know people who've disappeared and fallen off the radar, who've stopped writing. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with people leaving the career, you know, we've come into this career, but things change — some things change, some things stay the same.  Since this is about advertising, I want to pick up one of the things you said in your long list, which I will link to in the show notes if people want to read the whole thing. “Advertising used to be a luxury. It isn't anymore – it's a necessity.” So I wonder if we could just take a step back and think about when do you think things changed? When did organic reach stop being effective on its own? Mark: I think it's a combination of things. I think it's kind of organic reach becoming less effective, and also, there's so much more noise you need to cut through now. By which I mean, other authors advertising or other choices for readers to get whatever they want to read next. You have to shout a little bit louder now to put your book in front of them. But on the organic reach — so I should I suppose we should probably say organic reaches effectively publicity that you don't have to pay for on social media. So back in the good old days, maybe eight or nine years ago, you could post something on your Facebook feed, and it would get through to a good number of your followers without you needing to spend anything to amplify it. And everyone knew that that couldn't last forever. Eventually, Facebook was going to monetize that and turn itself into one of the biggest advertising platforms in the world. And that happened, I don't know exactly when that would be, I'm going to say five, six, seven years ago, it became less and less easy to reach your followers without having to pay for the privilege.  It started off with boosting posts becoming a thing. So I remember spending $10 or $20 to amplify the message so that more readers would see what I was trying to tell them. But then they added different abilities and different mechanisms that enabled you to reach different segments of your potential readership, and the advertising platform was built. And things have just continued from there. I don't know what the percentage is now in terms of how many people would see your updates without you having to pay, but it will be low single digits, I'd have thought in terms of percentages. Joanna: But of course, it is not just social media or Facebook or wherever. It's also Amazon and the other stores online, in that back in the days of the so called “Gold Rush”, which never really was, you could upload your Kindle book, and they were so few books back then in 2008, 2009 when it all kicked off, you could upload a book with a terrible cover — and I wish I'd taken screen prints back when Kindle launched as to how many books were in the store. But organic reach back then was literally you'd upload a book and people would buy it. And that's also gone, hasn't it? Mark: Definitely. And I remember this just as I started publishing, so 10 or 11 years ago, the trend was either free books because the rankings were different then. So if you had a free download, that counted pretty much the same as a sale in terms of the algorithm. So you'd get loads and loads of visibility when you ran a free promotion for the three days that you had with Select. And then you had the 99 pence promotions backed up by sites like Pixel of Ink, FreeBooksy, BargainBooksy, BookBub came a little bit later, but it was a big entry into the market.  You could do really, really well with kind of priming the algorithm, and then it will continue to sell after the promotion had ended. But as you say, those days are gone now. I think there's something like 11 million books on the Kindle store now. And, you know, most of those probably won't be being promoted, so it's easy to rank above them, but you do have to do something now more proactively than just uploading and crossing your fingers, which kind of did work a little bit back in the day. Joanna: And I think this is why having a quick retrospective is good because things change all the time. I mean, I don't know when the last time we did an interview, but possibly it was before TikTok. I mean, 2022 was a year of TikTok taking Colleen Hoover into the stratosphere, and a whole load of other authors taking advantage of that. But things change every year. There are new platforms. I mean, when I first started out, it was MySpace. It's kind of crazy to think now. Things change, some things stay the same. So let's get into what's happening right now. So we're recording this at the beginning of 2023. What are the main paid advertising options for authors right now? And how is advertising different to other forms of marketing? Mark: Well, for the paid platforms, the two main ones are Facebook and Amazon. So those will be the primary levers that you can pull as an author to start generating sales or finding readers. Kind of the third major platform, but not as important as the first two, but still important, is BookBub. So BookBub has been around now for ages, they've got millions and millions of people on their lists. They also offer an advertising platform that you can use as well. So those would be the three main paid platforms, but then kind of bubbling up around those are lots of other opportunities to do the same thing. So TikTok is definitely a thing now. As you said, we saw Colleen Hoover go into the stratosphere last year, basically, because of her brilliant TikTok strategy. We've seen people like Lucy Score, who's a friend of the SPS podcast, recently one of her readers, a BookToker, put something together for one of her books, and it's shot straight back up to the top of the charts again. And Lucy is quite sure that the reason for that was because of TikTok. So there were things developing all the time. And who knows, maybe even Twitter will become a platform. I doubt it, given the way that Musk is running it at the moment, but it's not impossible that that could become a platform that has an effect. It never has been before in terms of selling books, but you know, things change. So it's definitely something worth keeping an eye on. J

Happy New Year 2023! I am more excited than ever this year about the books I want to write and publish. I've had a difficult few years (haven't we all?!) but now I'm ready to create at full throttle in 2023, aided by the incredible AI-powered tools emerging for writers. Here's an overview of my 2023 goals: J.F. Penn — Pilgrimage (and my first Kickstarter); Catacomb book, ARKANE 13, and some short stories Joanna Penn — The Shadow Book (and maybe another Kickstarter), The Creator Economy for Authors, and maybe The AI-Assisted Author Continue The Creative Penn Podcast Experiment with futurist technologies and share what I learn with you along the way More digital, more physical. Focus on optimizing my health, and do more in-person travel and events. Financial goals As ever, I am a full-time author-entrepreneur and this is my job, so I have a lot of goals. If your goals are simpler — like finishing your book, or publishing for the first time, or selling 1000 copies, then fantastic! You don’t have to have such extensive goals as me. Please share your goals in the comments so we can keep each other accountable. J.F. Penn — Kickstarter for Pilgrimage with a special signed hardback edition I have finished Pilgrimage and am currently narrating the audiobook as well as formatting the print edition. It's a very personal book, and so I want to do a special signed hardback edition that won't be available anywhere else. The best way to do that is to know how many people want to buy it, so I can order the books, have them shipped here, sign them, and then send them out myself. So I'm (finally) going to do a Kickstarter! Click here to sign up for the pre-launch list (no commitment to buy) You'll be notified of the campaign when it launches on 23 Jan, 2023. The Kickstarter will also have the ebook and audiobook (narrated by me), as well as the special edition hardback (signed and unsigned available), a special edition paperback edition (POD, not signed) and a Pilgrimage workbook, with guided prompts so you can plan your own pilgrimage. My plan is to sell direct through the Kickstarter, and then put the books in all formats (except for the special edition hardback) up on my store, www.CreativePennBooks.com and available everywhere wide a month later. character and setting Images for the Catacomb book, generated by joanna penn on midjourney J.F. Penn — Write and publish the ‘catacomb' book, ARKANE #13, and some short stories — and maybe other fiction The catacomb book is a stand-alone story I have had on my mind for a while, and I want to get it out of my head and onto the page. I'm not sure if it's a novel or a novella yet. At the end of Tomb of Relics, ARKANE #12, I left Morgan and Jake heading to Vienna for the next adventure, but until recently, I didn't know what they would find there. But now I know — and the plan is to go to Vienna sometime in 2023 — so I will be able to write the story. I've also got some short story ideas that I'd like to finish and publish. My goal is to do a short story anthology in 2024, so I can print a book, so I need more stories for that. I love writing short stories, but they take a lot more time than you expect! Joanna Penn — Write and publish The Creator Economy and The AI-Assisted Author I have courses on both topics, and since I think these are two of the biggest trends for authors, I'd like to expand them both into short non-fiction books. I already have drafts based on the course transcripts. The AI-Assisted Author will be a follow-up to my 2020 book, Artificial Intelligence, Blockchain and Virtual Worlds: The Impact of Converging Technologies on Authors and the Publishing Industry, much of which is now starting to happen. I am always early, lol! Joanna Penn — Write and publish ‘The Shadow Book' I've been talking about this for years and I have many thousands of words in a Scrivener project, but in 2023, I will overcome resistance and (finally) write this book. I'm also planning to launch it as a Kickstarter, and one of the reasons for doing the Pilgrimage Kickstarter is as practice for this one. I'm not sure yet whether this will go out under Joanna Penn or J.F. Penn, but the basic concept is about writing from your darker side, and about integrating your shadow into your creative work, rather than trying to bury it or sublimate it. I studied Jungian psychology as part of my degree in Theology, specializing in the psychology of religion, and I also have a Graduate Diploma in Psychology. Morgan Sierra in my ARKANE thriller series is a psychologist, and I have brought my interest into my fiction over the years. Now it's time to turn it into a book that you might be able to use for your creative process. book with ideas, Image created by joanna penn on midjourney I will continue to experiment with future technology and share what I learn with you Regular readers and listeners to the show know that I have been commentating on the AI space since Alpha Go beat Lee Sodol at the game of Go in 2016. In 2019, I posted 9 Ways That Artificial Intelligence (AI) Will Disrupt Authors And The Publishing Industry, and I'm planning to do an update of that later in the year. In 2020, I published my short book, Artificial Intelligence, Blockchain, and Virtual Worlds: The Impact of Converging Technologies On Authors and the Publishing Industry. In 2021, I produced a course, The AI-Assisted Author. In 2022, generative AI went mainstream, and now many creatives are using Midjourney/Stable Diffusion/DALL-E 2 for images and ChatGPT (along with Sudowrite or Jasper based on GPT3) to write and rewrite text, ideate and outline stories and articles, write ad copy, and more. Some are expanding use of AI translation, and many more are using text-to-speech generation for audio, like Google Play Automated Narration or Deep Zen. In the last few weeks, Apple Books introduced AI narration as well. For years, I have quoted Kevin Kelly from The Inevitable: “This is not a race against the machines. If we race against them, we lose. This is a race with the machines. You’ll be paid in the future based on how well you work with robots … It is inevitable.“ It feels like 2008 all over again, like the early days of digital when we didn't really know what we were doing, but it was a hell of a lot of fun, and those who embraced the changes built a career on that technology. I intend to work with the robots (AI tools), and 2023 will bring many more advances. These technologies will transform our industry in the next decade — not just ours, of course, but every industry. In fact, the more important AI applications are outside of our industry. I am more excited about AI helping to solve climate change, finding treatments and even cures for diseases, and in reforming education to make it accessible for all, and much more. There are so many opportunities, but as ever with technology, there are also dangers, problems, ethical questions, and much more. It's important that authors and creatives are involved in discussions around copyright, intellectual property, and future business models, rather than trying to ban these tools or avoid them completely. We need our voices to be heard so we can be part of creating the future. Colorful exploding typewriter, created by Joanna Penn on Midjourney I've previously worked with the Alliance of Independent Authors (ALLi) on submissions for the World Intellectual Property Organization, as well as the UK government on AI and copyright, and I helped with the Ethical AI use guidelines. I will continue to work with ALLi on these aspects and become more active in the AI for Good movement. In terms of using the tools in my creative process, this year, I will: Use ChatGPT and (hopefully) GPT-4 and other generative text tools to help iterate ideas for my books, to write the sales descriptions and ad copy, as well as expand on my words (like an extended thesaurus). Use Midjourney, DALL-E and other generative image tools for character and setting ideas, as well as elements of my book covers and marketing Mint special NFT editions of my books/stories on blockchain platforms Create more AI-narrated audiobooks Use text-to-video to get back into video marketing, which I put aside a few years back because the overhead of making video was too great, but that has changed with emerging text-to-video tools Use Otter.ai (AI speech-to-text) for the podcast transcription, and also to help me dictate my first drafts more quickly No doubt there will be other things I don't even know about yet, but I hope to jump in as things emerge. One of the wonderful things about owning and controlling your own intellectual property assets is the ability to take advantage of new things as they arrive without asking permission from anyone. Continue podcasting at The Creative Penn Podcast The Creative Penn Podcast is part of my body of creative work, and I reach more people every week through the podcast than I do with my books. It is creative work, it is an important income stream, it is my community, and it is marketing. I'm committing to another year of The Creative Penn Podcast, and to my patrons with my monthly Q&A. Many of the topics I have covered as ‘futurist' have now moved into the mainstream conversation, so I will start covering those as part of the normal Monday shows instead of inbetweenisodes. If you find the podcast useful, please consider supporting the show (and you'll get my extra monthly Q&A episode) at www.Patreon.com/thecreativepenn or you can buy me a coffee (or 3) at BuyMeACoffee.com/thecreativepenn Financial goals While my multi-six-figure business revenue has remained approximately the same for the l

Another year ends, and once more, it's time to reflect on our creative goals. I hope you will take the time to review your goals, and leave a comment below about how the year went. Did you achieve everything you wanted to? You can read my 2022 goals here and I reflect on what I achieved below. Books for authors — Joanna Penn Fiction as J.F. Penn — thrillers, dark fantasy, crime, horror, short stories Shift to the Creator Economy and focus on selling direct Embrace multi-passionate creativity — and optimize for curiosity — as we move into The Creative Future. Generative AI, NFTs, and more The Creative Penn website and podcast Book-binding: Limited hand-bound edition of A Thousand Fiendish Angels I achieved a lifetime goal of walking the Camino de Santiago — and finished my Pilgrimage book The end of my Books and Travel Podcast Travel and speaking, health and personal things Header image generated by Joanna Penn on Midjourney. Books for authors — Joanna Penn I've had a draft of How to Write a Novel in my Work In Progress drive for over five years, but this year, I overcame resistance and finally finished it. I was worried that I didn't have anything to add to the millions of other books on writing craft, but it turned out to be useful for some people, especially those who write out of order and are discovery writers. I launched the book direct on my Shopify store, CreativePennBooks.com and sold it exclusively direct for a month before publishing it wide. It's now available on all platforms, in all formats, including the audiobook narrated by me. Click here to buy it direct from me. Click here to buy it from other stores. Fiction as J.F. Penn — thrillers, dark fantasy, crime, horror, short stories In the first quarter of 2022, I re-edited my first novel, Stone of Fire, and the subsequent two novels, Crypt of Bone, and Ark of Blood. Click here for my lessons learned from re-editing. Was it worth it? Yes, creatively, because I am much happier about advertising the early books in the series now. Financially, I can't see any impact, but it was still personally worth it, especially as it helped me see how far my writing has come since that first novel in 2009 and the lessons helped me to finish How to Write a Novel. I also wrote and published two short stories. Blood, Sweat, and Flame, a dark little story set in a glassblowing hot shop, inspired by the Netflix series, Blown Away. Soldiers of God, an ARKANE short story, featuring a popular secondary character, Martin Klein, my AI geek/ ‘Q' character in the ARKANE universe. It's based around a document found in the Vatican Secret Archives that leads to a crypt hidden under Paris which holds a dark secret. I've also written another short story which is currently with my editor, working title, Demons in the Smoke, but even though the work was in 2022, I will include that in 2023. A shift to the Creator Economy and a focus on selling direct In 2022, I purposed shifted into the Creator Economy model. This is essentially a mindset shift, as well as a behavioral change. Instead of chasing algorithms and focusing primarily on building business for the big tech companies, it's about nurturing a direct relationship with readers and selling direct as much as possible. This means that the author takes a bigger slice of the revenue upfront, as well as controlling the customer data and the customer relationship, plus we get paid faster than going through other distribution platforms. I've been selling direct since 2008 when I started online, but it's always been an afterthought for book sales. I offered it, but I didn't focus on it. I also only offered digital formats. In 2022, I prioritized selling direct in print as well as ebook and audio, and made sure to release direct first and direct only for new books. In July 2022, I launched www.CreativePennBooks.com, my Minimum Viable Shopify store and you can read all the details here, where I outline all the reasons it's a good idea for your income, your customer data, and your mental health! I launched How to Write a Novel for a month direct only with all formats, before putting the book wide on all the stores in all formats. Plus, I have kept the How to Write a Novel Workbook as direct only exclusive to my store. This will be my model going forward — release direct first for at least a month before putting the book/s wide and keep some products as direct only. I spoke at London Book Fair and at SPS Live on the topic of the Creator Economy, and produced a course on this in mid-2022: The Creator Economy for Authors. Embrace multi-passionate creativity — and optimize for curiosity — as we move into The Creative Future. At the beginning of the year, I decided to optimize for curiosity, rather than trying to rein in my eclectic, multi-passionate interests. This allowed me to play in the technological and futurist spaces that I find so invigorating, and I have shared much of this experimentation with you in the extra podcast episodes during 2022. Generative AI I've been talking about creative AI since 2016, and personally, I have been using GPT-3 through Sudowrite for at least 18 months, mainly as an expanded thesaurus for sensory description. [Sudowrite Tutorial here]. I've previously written a book on AI for authors and publishing, I've worked on submissions for the UK government and the WIPO on AI and copyright, and I've helped the Alliance of Independent Authors formulate their Ethical Guidelines for AI Usage. So creative uses of AI are not a surprise to me. created by joanna penn on midjourney, prompt “all different kinds of pens lined up in a row, all different colors, joyful creative” But this year generative AI went mainstream with the release of Midjourney, DALL-E 2, and Stable Diffusion for image generation in the northern hemisphere summer, and the release of ChatGPT in early December 2022 for text generation. I'm now using generative AI as part of my creative and book marketing process. I've written and rewritten book sales descriptions and ad copy with ChatGPT and started to play with it as an outlining and research tool; I've used Sudowrite to help with multi-sensory description (like a thesaurus on steroids); I've used Midjourney to create header images for this blog, to create a custom ornamental break for my next book, and to create social media images related to my stories. I've done a number of interviews on AI including co-writing fiction; AI art for book covers and marketing, and collaborative writing with OpenAI's Andrew Mayne. Blockchain / NFTs I minted and sold my first NFT special editions on OpenSea using AI-generated art before it went mainstream. I've also done a number of presentations and interviews on NFTs including an overview of how authors can use NFTs and blockchain; blockchain for copyright and intellectual property; financial and tax implications of NFTs; legal and contractual aspects of NFTs and DAOs; Plus, a crossover with AI and NFTs in a discussion with J. Thorn about how he is using generative AI for his NFT music and books. AI for voice Google Play auto-narrated audiobooks have helped thousands of authors create AI-narrated audiobooks for free, and have now rolled out the program to more countries, and enabled multiple narrator voices. I interviewed Ryan Dingler from Google Play Books about auto-narration, and produced an update about other aspects of AI for voice. Apple has just started with AI narration as well, so this trend will only continue in 2023. I am an audiobook narrator so I narrate most of my own books these days, but I also have AI-narrated audiobooks distributed to almost every platform except Audible. As ever, I remain a techno-optimist, and while there are always problems with technology, I believe on balance it's a force for good and I want to continue to be part of the positive side. Much more on the creative future here. The Creative Penn website and podcast I published 67 episodes of The Creative Penn podcast in 2022, and I'm so pleased that the show still resonates after more than 13 years. I did a survey in the autumn and asked why people keep listening. The main reasons were: my positive spin on the author life, my focus on the future for authors and publishing which no other show covers, and the fact I have been around so long, giving me a longer-term perspective. The survey results helped me re-commit to the show, and also to plan episodes that will help authors at different stages of the journey. Thanks to corporate sponsors Kobo Writing Life, Ingram Spark, Draft2Digital, ProWritingAid, FindawayVoices, WrittenWordMedia, and Kindlepreneur. Thanks also to my patrons, who specifically support the inbetweenisodes and help me keep going when I feel like giving up. You can support the show (and get my extra monthly Q&A episode) at www.Patreon.com/thecreativepenn or you can buy me a coffee (or 3) at BuyMeACoffee.com/thecreativepenn In terms of stats, The Creative Penn Podcast is in the top 1% of podcasts with over 10,000 downloads in the first 7 days of publishing, and 15K-25K downloads per episode. [Comparisons at The Podcast Host] Stats from 17 Dec 2022 [Blubrry] — Over 7.9 million podcast downloads across 228 countries (60% USA, 12% UK, 5% Australia, 5% Canada, 18% Rest of the World). 123,685 listens in the last 30 days. 86% impactful plays (where people listen to at least 75% of the episode). Book-binding: I created a limited hand-bound edition of A Thousand Fiendish Angels One of my over-arching mantras these days is ‘more physical, more digital.‘ As I delve deeper into the online world and experiment more with AI, b

“If you just keep writing/querying/marketing/etc you will eventually be successful. Just don't give up.” We've all heard a variation of this, but what if it isn't true? When is quitting worthwhile? Joanna Penn and Orna Ross discuss Quit: The Power of Knowing When To Walk Away by Annie Duke and give examples of what they have quit around writing, book marketing, and more. In the intro, book recommendations, and Pilgrimage Kickstarter pre-launch page. Get 33% off my ebooks, audiobooks and courses for the rest of 2022. Use coupon 2022 at checkout at CreativePennBooks.com (ebooks and audio, not print), and/or TheCreativePenn.com/learn for courses. Valid until the end of 2022. This episode is supported by my patrons at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn. If you support the show, you get the extra Q&A episode for patrons only. Joanna Penn and Orna Ross Joanna Penn writes nonfiction for authors and is an award-nominated, New York Times and USA Today bestselling thriller author as J.F.Penn. She’s also an award-winning podcaster, creative entrepreneur, and international professional speaker. Orna Ross is a novelist, poet, and non-fiction author. She's also the founder of the Alliance of Independent Authors, a professional speaker and creative coach. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Why we need to reframe quitting — and why it's so hard to do Getting over sunk cost fallacy Why Orna quit a whole series of non-fiction books Why I quit my Books and Travel Podcast Other things you might want to quit: social media platforms, blogging, an author name, a book series, writing a book that's taking forever, marketing a book that isn't selling, a business model, a day job, being a full-time author, a city or even a country How quitting makes room for you to create something new You can find Orna Ross at www.OrnaRoss.com and listen to the Ask ALLi Podcast on your favorite podcast app. This episode originally went out on the Ask ALLi Podcast, 2 Dec 2022. Shareable image generated by Joanna Penn on Midjourney. Transcript of the discussion Joanna Penn: Hello everyone, and welcome to the Alliance of Independent Authors Advanced Self-Publishing Salon with me, Joanna Penn, and Orna Ross. Hi Orna. Orna Ross: Hi Joanna, and hello everyone. Joanna Penn: Hello. Yes, we are back. It is almost the end of 2022, which is crazy, and today our topic is, when to quit and what to quit, and all the things we've been quitting. I'm going to put this into context. So, basically, my friend J Thorn, who many people will know, author/podcaster extraordinaire, J Thorn recommended this book to me. So, it's called Quit: The Power of Knowing When to Walk Away by Annie Duke, and J recommended it to me. I recommended it to you. I've recommended it to Sacha Black, who's also talked about it on her podcast now. It's going around at the moment, this book, and what is so brilliant about it, and what we want to do is reframe it as the book reframed it, which is, quitting doesn't need to have this negative context. What we want is it to have a more positive context, and letting go of things, and we're at that time of year when it's like, yeah, we need to let something go for a good reason. So, when I recommended it to you, Orna, why did you say, yes, that sounds like a good idea. Why is quitting necessary? Orna Ross: Well, I was thinking of it as letting go because that's my vernacular, but I periodically do this anyway, as a clear out. No matter how careful you are, how intentional you are, you accumulate dead wood and also you change, you shift, or things change, tools change, the climate changes, readers change in what they want, and so you can get stuck. So, it's good to do a bit of an inventory and have a look and see what's going on. So, just at the moment that I was doing all that, we were chatting, and you said, oh, great book, Quit. And then we said, okay, that's got to be the theme for our next podcast. Joanna Penn: Yeah, well, this is it. I feel like so often we idolize grit and perseverance, and they have all these positive connotations. You'll often hear, for example, in the author industry, oh, all you need to do is stick it out. Eventually people fall away, and ‘if you keep going, you'll make it.' If you keep submitting to agents, you'll eventually get an agent, or if you keep writing more books, you'll eventually be successful, whatever that means, and we have all this stuff that basically says, you must keep going, whatever happens. And that is considered a good thing. Whereas, the word ‘quitting' can imply negativity, and Annie Duke, who's the author, she played professional poker and she basically talked about that professionals quit more often; the most successful poker players quit more often, and we are not playing poker, but it's a game of skill and I think that's really interesting in terms of quitting more often. Also, what I think's really important is we're not necessarily talking about quitting bad things like quitting smoking, although, great, or whatever else. It's more about quitting some of the good things, because we don't necessarily pile bad things into our life, we pile good things into our life, but then we can't achieve the main goal. Orna Ross: Yeah, absolutely, and that is the point, particularly in creative industries, passion-based businesses, we love all the things we do and we'd love to do more, and it just keeps on expanding as well. All the lovely, shiny things you can do. It's just over a decade and a half ago that none of these opportunities existed, and now with every passing year there are more and more so it can be really tempting. And we're not talking here about shiny object syndrome so much as things that have become embedded, and they may be fun and they may also be financially rewarding to some degree, but you have to check them for opportunity cost. Might you be better off doing something else with your time and resources? It's not just about what you're doing, but you might be better off quitting something that's doing okay for you because something else might serve us better. The other thing I think is that not quitting and just doing the same thing can become a bit compulsive sometimes, or we do it by rote. So, we talk about creative writing and creative publishing and the core of that is keeping things fresh and staying engaged, what we were talking about there at the beginning, the variety of switching out of non-fiction into fiction works for us in some way, but sometimes it's just about letting things go so that something new can come in. Joanna Penn: You mentioned there the opportunity costs, but there are also financial costs, time costs, which kind of come into that opportunity cost. But also, one really big thing that she talks about is sunk cost, and this feeling like, look, I've put this much into whatever it is, and we are going to go into some more examples in a minute, but you know, I've put all these years in, all this money, all this effort, and it may be if I just keep going a bit longer, it might be worth it eventually. So, let's start on some of the examples. You mentioned it before, that your creative non-fiction books, you put years into these. What did you quit and how did you get over that sunk cost fallacy? Orna Ross: Yeah, so I've always been really interested in the process of creativity and I wanted to do a series about the creative process, not so much about writing and publishing, but creative living and how you can apply the process that we apply to our writing and to our publishing into everything, because I really firmly believe that this is a way to approach life, except that we're all conditioned into a different way of approaching life. So, I did a long series, I commissioned all the covers, I put the covers out there, which I used to do as a way to make myself do things — I didn't after this one! So, I kept going for a long time between, I think, 2013 and 2016 I was working on it on and off as I was doing all sorts of other things and kept going back to it, kept going back to it, and then one day you said to me, maybe it's time to realize it's not going to happen, because it just wasn't coming together for me. Joanna Penn: It was your birthday, that's what it was. It was the year before a big birthday, and you said, I want to finish on this particular day, and you hadn't, and that's when I said to you, how much longer are you going to do it? Orna Ross: Yeah, and I went home with my tail between my legs, and realized, you know what, this is best; quit. So, what I did was, I put the core of it, the nuggets of it, into one book, and I was satisfied with that. And I still every so often find myself drifting back over and thinking that I'd love to do that again, and I realized it became and could be, still could be, but I won't let it, be a sort of a procrastination thing, an easier thing to do in a way than some of the other things that I want to do more. So, that was the biggest thing I think, that I ever quit, because I am somebody who sticks it out. My fiction takes a very long time to put together and even writing a short poem, I can take a long time over that, and I am somebody who prides myself on my grit and my resilience and my bounce back and all of that, and what I found very interesting about the Duke book was the examples she gave of people who were at the height of their game and then were watching things falling apart. Muhammad Ali being the very well-known example, but lots of business examples as well of people who, the evidence was clear and in front of them, this is not working, but there's this ment

What has changed in the publishing industry over the last few years? What can authors learn from the DOJ vs PRH court case? How can mid-list authors thrive in uncertain times? Jane Friedman talks about these things and more. In the intro, USA Today list is on indefinite hiatus [US News]; Paid for bestseller list; Recommended books; My scallop shell custom ornamental break; A Midwinter Sacrifice; The Author’s Mindset Podcast; What do you do if your book isn’t selling? [Rachael Herron]; My Pilgrimage Kickstarter pre-launch page; History Quill Writer's Conference; Get 33% off my ebooks, audiobooks and courses for the rest of 2022. Use coupon 2022 at checkout at CreativePennBooks.com (ebooks and audio, not print), and/or TheCreativePenn.com/learn for courses. Valid until the end of 2022. This podcast is sponsored by Kobo Writing Life, which helps authors self-publish and reach readers in global markets through the Kobo eco-system. You can also subscribe to the Kobo Writing Life podcast for interviews with successful indie authors.  Jane Friedman is the author of The Business of Being a Writer, as well as other nonfiction books. She's also an award-winning publishing commentator, writer, editor, professional speaker and teacher. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes How the pandemic and increasing online sales have changed traditional publishing Thoughts on the DOJ vs PRH legal case (lots more at Publishers Weekly) Why backlist sales are so important The struggles of the mid-list author Key book publishing paths (updated) How acquisitions affect authors Why marketing is important however you choose to publish Tips for using a paid newsletter as part of your author business What to watch out for in the coming year You can find Jane at JaneFriedman.com Image generated by Joanna Penn on Midjourney. Transcript of Interview with Jane Friedman Joanna: Jane Friedman is the author of The Business of Being a Writer, as well as other nonfiction books. She's also an award-winning publishing commentator, writer, editor, professional speaker, and teacher. So welcome back to the show, Jane. Jane: Thank you. I'm so delighted to be back. Joanna: So you were last on the show in 2018. Seems like a different world. For those who don't know you — Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and publishing. Jane: Well, it's been a lifelong endeavor. I was a creative writing major in college, and I went straight into a publishing job right out of college. It was a midsize commercial publisher. I stayed for about 12 years. And then I had a brief detour into teaching at university level where I was teaching writing. And then I went back into publishing, and now I'm full-time freelance. So I write a newsletter, I host classes, and I go to publishing conferences. So it's all been kind of one long, unbroken focus on writing and publishing. Joanna: And we're going to come back to The Hot Sheet in a minute. But I wanted to talk to you, I mean, you do just fantastic commentary on the publishing industry. And you've seen so many different things. But I wanted your reflections, I guess, on the last couple of years. How has the pandemic and increasing online sales changed the more traditional publishing industry? Because I feel like indies, like myself, we were already doing everything online. But I feel like the pandemic has really shifted traditional. So what are your thoughts on that? Jane: Yes, I mean, first of all, the pandemic was great for traditional publishing, generally. I mean, there are supply chain issues, of course, which are still affecting everyone. But print book sales were up 9% in 2021, and for a mature industry that is astonishing. And they're still doing pretty well in 2022. Comparatively, I think they're down maybe 5% versus last year, which is still great. It's above where we were in 2019. Something interesting that happened too, is that Bookshop.org and independent bookstores are in a better position — Bookshop being the online retailer that competes against Amazon. They're very flexible, they're more focused on the things that only they can do well, and they're benefiting from people who want to consume more conscientiously. I think the Bookshop founder said ‘virtuous shopping', a virtuous alternative to Amazon is what he was hoping for. And they have, they've succeeded. There's now a UK version of Bookshop. I think there might be one in Spain. So, yeah, I think the pandemic really helped the launch of that because they were established in January 2020, having no idea what was about to happen. The other thing that was very positive, for novelists in particular, is that adult fiction sales came back after many years of decline. So at first, it was believed this was driven by comfort reads. But now I would say it's probably more TikTok driven. Sales are also more backlist oriented. Part of that is the shift to online sales, but TikTok is also, again, driving some of that. And I think the other piece of good news for maybe all, well, I think it's good news for all authors, is that The Big 5 aren't actually selling as much combined as everyone else. So I do see that it's a very diverse market. And I know we'll talk about some concerns about the market a little later. But I think generally, books have done really well the past few years, no matter where you're sitting in the industry. Joanna: So you mentioned The Big 5 there, and one of the things I really wanted to talk to you about is what's shocked the publishing industry, or a lot of authors anyway. In September 2022 — The US Department of Justice took Penguin Random House to court over the potential acquisition of Simon and Schuster. And the proceedings of the trial brought to light a lot of surprising things, or perhaps only surprising to authors and people who didn't know much about the industry. So I wanted to hear what were some of the things that stood out for you because you did a ton of commentary around this. Jane: Yes, so the things that shocked the average person and even a lot of authors, frankly, that have been in the industry a while, the big CEOs of these enormous companies saying they don't know what will sell. You know, portraying the industry as just a lot of random bets. People have casually said that for many, many years that it's a ‘throw it against the wall and see what sticks' sort of industry. But I guess there was this assumption that if you put a big CEO on the stand, and you ask them questions under oath, that they would show more business acumen than they did. So I think that was very shocking to people and discouraging. Like, they were denying they had any responsibility over what books would do well.  I think the other reality that was thrown into stark relief, is that most books aren't getting a lot of marketing investment. Unless there are already clear indicators after the book releases that it's going to do well, then the publisher will funnel more support toward it. But unless the book is getting one of these really big advances, there is just a lot of waiting and seeing, rather than proactive marketing and promotion. The other thing that came out is that — and again, if you study the industry closely like I do, this was not a surprise, but I think for the general public, it was shocking — that most books don't earn out their advances. And publishers knowingly pay more to get the books they want, knowing the advance won't earn out, rather than negotiate on anything else. They don't want to give up their eBook rights, their audiobook rights, they don't want to really mess around with the royalty rates. They are really just paying a lot more upfront to run their business. And obviously, only The Big 5 are able to play that sort of game, the smaller publishers can't. And that's part of what the trial was about. So what we saw is that it's a really small percentage of winners that drive profitability for The Big 5. And sometimes they know what those are going to be, or they're paying larger advances thinking that they know what the winners will be, but more often than not, it's the surprises. It’s the things that they maybe paid a more modest advance, and then it just shocked everyone how well it performed. And it was portrayed is almost out of your hands. It was the Penguin Random House CEO who made the most, I think, quote-worthy comments, where he was just like, “Publishing is random. That's why we're called Random House.” And I mean, he's said that line a lot at industry conferences, but again, to say it on the stand under oath, I think was just surprising for folks. Joanna: Yeah, I didn't know that. I hadn't heard that before. And I guess we had assumed that the name didn't mean that word, like we didn't think that. Maybe it was, I didn't know, someone's name or something. To hear that coming from the CEO, it's discouraging in a way if you want to get a traditional publishing deal. But to me, I actually felt like, you know what, if the CEO with all the power and all the money thinks that it's random, then as independent authors where we're just one person on their own, then that's actually encouraging. Because it explains why — like, I've got 35 books now, and most of my income comes from a handful of them. And, obviously, every single one I thought was going to sell, but it's only a few. So I mean, what encouragement can we take from this? What encouragement can independent authors take from this? Jane: I think exactly what you said, that it is, in fact, a pretty level playing field, especially considering you can be distributed in all the same places

Why might a first-time author choose to independently publish? Barnaby Jameson talks about his experience with his first historical novel, and why valuing intellectual property is critical for authors to understand. Plus tips for self-publishing and marketing. In the intro, Draft2Digital distributing to Smashwords store [D2D], expansion of Google Play Books auto-narration into more countries, and multiple voices per audio production, with more detail in episode 642; 3 surveys on author income [ASA; CREATe UK; Written Word Media] and why you need to choose your path. Get 33% off my ebooks, audiobooks and courses for the rest of 2022. Use coupon 2022 at checkout at CreativePennBooks.com (ebooks and audio, not print), and/or TheCreativePenn.com/learn for courses. Valid until the end of 2022. Today's show is sponsored by Ingram Spark, which I use to print and distribute my print-on-demand books to 40,000 retailers including independent bookstores, schools and universities, libraries, and more. It's your content—do more with it through IngramSpark.com. Use promo code PENN at checkout for 1 free book upload, print, ebook, or both, if uploaded at the same time—until December 31, 2022. Barnaby Jameson is an English barrister specializing in terrorism and counterterrorism. His first novel is Codename: Madeleine, a historical espionage thriller. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Research for writing historical fiction The challenges of switching to fiction as a non-fiction expert — especially with writing dialogue Deciding to use a pen name vs your own name The benefits of self-publishing — and the importance of valuing your intellectual property Becoming the CEO of your own creative endeavor Publishing services for self-published authors — and why Barnaby recommends White Fox as a premium publishing partner. [More in my episode with White Fox here.] Different platforms and methods for marketing your book You can find Barnaby Jameson at BarnabyJameson.com Shareable image generated by Joanna Penn with Midjourney. If you need help self-publishing, check out my free ebook, Successful Self-Publishing, also available in print and ebook. Transcript of Interview with Barnaby Jameson Joanna: Barnaby Jameson is an English barrister specializing in terrorism and counterterrorism. His first novel is Codename: Madeleine, a historical espionage thriller. So welcome to the show, Barnaby. Barnaby: Thank you, Joanna. It's a great pleasure to be here. Joanna: Oh, I'm excited to talk about this. So first up, you are a busy guy. You're a barrister with important cases. So what got you interested in writing fiction? And why write a historical novel? Barnaby: Yes, I am quite a busy guy. My life is one of extremes. And so sometimes I'm probably the busiest man in the kingdom if I'm in the heat of a major terrorist case. But then I do, because I'm now a King's Counsel, get breaks between cases. And so I can then find myself between cases having a little bit of time, maybe to go to Greece where I like to write, to have a bit of time to myself to do some writing. So it's kind of, in my life, it's feast or famine. Barnaby Jameson, in his barrister's wig. Photo used with permission from barnaby jameson Joanna: And why a historical novel? Because I guess most people would say, “oh, well, why don't you just write a terrorism thriller?” Because that's what you know all about. Why historical? Barnaby: Yes, that's an entirely fair question. And maybe the terrorist blockbusters will come, but I think I'd have to hang up my wig first because I can't write them while I'm currently in practice. In answer to your question, I've always been interested in history. I read history, rather haphazardly at Cambridge, but it's probably the only subject that I showed any degree of interest in as a student. I've got a particular interest in World War Two because I come from a post-war generation, but it's clearly a seismic event that I think we're still coming to terms with. And of course, it's moving now from living memory into the history books. I've got a personal connection because my grandfather on my mother's side was an airman serving in Ethiopia in World War Two and also an intelligence officer, moonlighting for something called the Special Operations Executive. And my book is inspired by an agent of the SOE. Joanna: Interesting. So apart from that personal connection, how have you done your research? Because readers of historical fiction can be very finicky about what is exact. Barnaby: You're absolutely right. And when my book was edited, every single historical assertion or description was challenged at every stage. And you're right, historical fiction writers (and readers) do not suffer fools gladly. I read effectively the official history of the Special Operations Executive, written by an ex-serving SEO soldier during the war called M.R.D. Foot, who's since died. And then I read a series of biographies of the various characters in the book whose stories I have fictionalized, but they are based 90% on real people. Joanna: So your writing process — obviously as a barrister, you do a lot of writing as part of your job — but writing fiction is quite different. What did you learn about this different type of writing? How did you have to change your process? Barnaby: One of the strange things about criminal work, which is the work that I do, is that it's probably more like fiction writing than any other part of the law. For the simple reason that in a criminal case, there is an opening speech by the prosecution and then there are closing speeches from both sides. A case is a little bit like a story. It's about an event that took place sometime in the past, and is recreated in court, and the prosecution has to persuade the jury that what happened in a certain way. And the defense obviously have a job to try and dismantle that narrative. As somebody that mainly prosecutes in quite big terrorist cases, it is more like writing a short novella. And so some of my opening speeches have been up to 25,000 – 30,000 words. And in the neo-Nazi cases I've been prosecuting recently, there's a throwback to Nazi history. And I'm obviously writing about the Nazi period in my book. And so actually, in my case, the writing in my work is actually more enmeshed with my fiction writing than perhaps would be the case if I was any other type of barrister. Joanna: I guess that's, as you say, that's the story angle. But you're essentially, I guess, performing a monologue at that point. Whereas in a novel, I think one of the hardest things for new writers is dialogue. So it's conversations between characters that seem real because often they're not in whole sentences and that kind of thing. So were there challenges in the actual writing of fiction that you particularly noticed? Barnaby: Yes, and dialogue is one that you rightly alight on. And again, in a curious way, I think my work has actually helped with dialogue because sometimes I have to look at lengthy interviews between the suspect and the police, which is sometimes just pages and pages of dialogue, it's questions and answers. And then in court, when I'm asking questions of a witness or a defendant, that is a type of dialogue. And so I think one's ear for dialogue, even with all sorts of different individuals, expert witnesses, defendants, becomes quite sharp. But I think there is a bigger question in what you ask or what I interpret as something that I found difficult, which is finding your voice, basically, as a novelist as opposed to a prosecutor. And I didn't find that at all easy. Just for me, it just came with an awful lot of practice rereading and rewriting what I had written. And eventually, I think I found my voice, but I suspect my readers will judge that for themselves. Joanna: Also, I think it will emerge over time. I mean, when you were beginning your legal career, you might have had 10% of the voice you have now. And I feel like as you develop, if you carry on with fiction writing, which I know you are, then that will be something that also emerges. Voice is like a strength. Any kind of strength comes from practice and confidence that you build up. You can't help but build up over time, right? There's no way someone in year one of a legal career is as confident and good as someone in year 20, for example. Barnaby: One would hope that that would be the case, Joanna. No, you're absolutely right about that. It comes with confidence, practice, and also, I think it comes down to the old-fashioned idea that unless you've done something I think it's for 10,000 hours, you're not really going to master it. So I think it does take, as we all know, an enormous commitment. But when you find your feet and find your voice, it's wonderful, as you know. Joanna: This is a really interesting discussion because I know a lot of very smart people like yourself, who are experts at writing essentially nonfiction, and they really struggle with almost the difficulty of switching into fiction because the skills are so different. And there's almost this blow to the ego as you realize there's so much you have to learn, even though you thought that you were an expert in some of these things. And I mean — How have you dealt with essentially becoming a beginner again? Whereas in your career, you're at the top of your career, now you're kind of going to the bottom of a fiction ladder, which is super hard. Barnaby: It's really difficult. And I think that the process of writing is humbling. The process of writing and then showing it to other

How can authors use generative AI as a co-writing tool? How can creatives approach AI possibilities with curiosity rather than fear? Charlene Putney talks about writing with LAIKA. In the intro, ChatGPT, thoughts on the GitHub Co-Pilot case [WIRED]; and why digital abundance is an opportunity for curious creatives, not a threat. I also mention my book, Artificial Intelligence, Blockchain, and Virtual Worlds: The Impact of Converging Technologies on Authors and the Publishing Industry, and you can find more interviews and resources on my Future of Creativity page. This podcast is sponsored by Written Word Media, which makes book marketing a breeze by offering quick, easy and effective ways for authors to promote their books. You can also subscribe to the Written Word Media email newsletter for book marketing tips. Charlene Putney is an award-winning writer, professional speaker and university lecturer. She's also the co-creator of LAIKA, an AI-powered creativity tool. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below. Show Notes Why people with arts backgrounds need to get more involved in AI AI-powered creativity tools for writers Using your own backlist to train an AI brain Tips for approaching AI tools as an author Copyright, bias, and plagiarism Data licensing and how fine-tuning models might benefit creatives The importance of personal branding, author voice, and connection with readers in a future of digital abundance You can find Charlene Putney at AlphaChar.com and on Twitter @alphachar. You can try LAIKA at WriteWithLAIKA.com Header image by Joanna Penn on Midjourney. Transcript of Interview with Charlene Putney Joanna: Charlene Putney is an award-winning writer, professional speaker and university lecturer. She's also the co-creator of LAIKA, an AI-powered creativity tool. So welcome to the show, Charlene. Charlene: Thanks so much, Joanna. It's really great to be here. Thanks for inviting me. Joanna: Oh, I'm excited to talk to you about this. So first up – Tell us a bit more about your background at the intersection of creativity and technology. Charlene: Sure, so I am quite old now. I'm 42, so I've been around doing a lot of things for a long time. I started out my “career” – I'm doing inverted commas here – studying ancient Near Eastern languages in university. And then after that, I wasn't quite sure what to do next, but then they had openings for people to work in Google in Dublin, where I'm from. And I applied there, and I worked there for the next almost five years. And then from there, I went and worked in Facebook. And weirdly, my ancient Near Eastern languages helped me out a lot because I was able to use those to work on product teams with right to left languages. So I worked in tech there for about almost 10 years. Then I really wanted to do something a bit more creative with my time. And I had been doing a lot of experimental writing classes and I was writing a little sci-fi novel myself. And so I basically left Facebook to just devote myself for a few months to writing. After those few months had gone and I realized that I still needed to earn money and pay the rent, I started trying to figure out how I could actually use my writing to do that. And that's how I got into writing for video games. So after a few small projects in and around Dublin, I ended up working for Larian Studios on much bigger games, big role-playing games, like Divinity: Original Sin 2 and Baldur's Gate 3. And from there, I started speaking at different games events all around the world, and one of them was here in Copenhagen, where I live now. And there I met Martin Pichlmair, who's my partner on LAIKA and my partner in life. And together, we've basically been just making wild experiments with writing ever since. So that's where I am. Joanna: That's awesome. And just to say, I'm older than you. So I'm 47. Charlene: Oh nice. I never meet people older than me. Joanna: But also my degree is in theology, and so I did ancient Greek, and studied Israel before the exile, and some ancient Near Eastern stuff and I started out doing Arabic. So I kind of feel like we have quite a lot in common in our background, but not computer science, right? And I think this is so important. Let me then ask you that question, essentially you've got an arts background – How does your arts background help you in this technological world full of people who do computer science? Charlene: That's a really good question. So in my undergrad, I also did philosophy. And I think that part of what has helped me a lot, like in all of the tech world and also in the games industry, and now also coming into the AI industry where I've been for the last year or so, is this feeling of, it's okay to stop and slow down and think about things before rushing into solutions. I've kind of always been the person in the room who's going, okay, wait a minute, let's just think about this other part first before we implement something. And I'm sure you can see now, especially with the ongoing downfall of Twitter that we're all witnessing every day, that is something that is not super common in the tech world. So I feel like that's one of the things that arts has helped me to bring into my career. Joanna: Yes, well, we're recording this in the middle of November 2022. So by the time people listen to this, we don't know what might have happened with Twitter. But it's interesting, just staying on the creativity side, so I feel pretty enmeshed in the AI space as well. And I often feel like there aren't enough – when I say creative, I mean, obviously coding is very creative. So there are lots of coding creative people in the room, but there aren't so many, let's say ‘artists'. So you mentioned writing a science fiction novel, and I feel like the visual art at the moment is obviously really interesting with AI. But this sense of ‘are we missing artists and arts people in this tech space'? And how can arts people get involved when they feel like the AI space is just too techie? Charlene: Yeah, I think that's a really nice point, Joanna. So actually, like when we started making LAIKA, it was kind of coming from that place of, my partner is a programmer, like he has a computer science degree. And so when we would make our experiments, he would set up all these notebooks for me in Jupiter and Collaboratory, and he would write code programs for me to mess around with and then I'd be able to work with them because I don't have a coding background. What we really wanted to do was make this accessible to normal people who don't want to fiddle around with knobs and buttons and find their way through that. And that's one of the things I've really found very strange about so much of the tools out there, is that like even for example, Midjourney, which is my favorite of the image generation tools and I use it all the time for illustrating my yoga workshops, illustrating pieces from LAIKA, is that like it’s in this Discord server, and you also need to understand how to make the prompts. And all of the things about it just requires so much personal investigation and knowledge about how to do things. Like even just being on the Discord server, I tried to keep my dad interested because he's really into lots of different types of tech, and then the Discord thing, he just couldn't get into the Discord part. So there is that, I think there is just a barrier of entry to regular people like me, still at the moment, even with these excellent tools. So yeah, I hope that that becomes more accessible. And I'm sure it will because every tool, when it comes out at first, the early adopters need to jump through a few hoops and then people make it more accessible for the next ones who come along. Joanna: I totally agree with you. And I mean, what's so funny is I had gone on to Discord for various blockchain things, and I just hated it. And I was like, I'm not even going to use Discord, I'm just not going to go there. And then with Midjourney, I was like, well, I need to have a look at Midjourney. And now I'm in it every single day. Charlene: Yeah, same. Joanna: I will get over this problem with myself and Discord in order to use the tool. But I mean, it is a really interesting time. But let's talk about LAIKA –   Can you explain what is LAIKA, and why did you decide to create it? Charlene: Sure. So it's basically an AI-powered creativity tool for writers. It's specifically for like serious writers, we would say. So like professional writers, really serious hobbyist writers, people who have a chunk of writing already behind them basically, like who already have their own voice and their own way of writing. The way it came about was actually over the pandemic, myself and my partner would be sitting around the table together because we both be at home from work, working from home. And so we had a lot more time together to talk about our experiments and think about what we want to do next. And we made tons of experiments using GPT-2, using Google Colaboratory. And then we started thinking, “wouldn't it be so nice to show other writers how to do this?” So we started setting up these events online, like over Zoom, where we would show people, over a two and a half to three hour session, very, very step by step on how to upload their texts, how to train an artificial intelligence on their own writing, how to use these notebooks, and then how to decipher the results and pull them into something else. And so we got a great result from those and you could just see the magic in their eyes, the sparkle. But it was still spending three hours on a Wednesday evening trying t

If you're not making the money you expected from your books, how can you pivot genres in order to write what you enjoy AND make a living? How can you change your mindset to one of creative abundance and productivity? Dan Padavona talks about these topics and more. In the intro, publishing year in review [Kris Rusch]; how you can use ChatGPT with examples; Collaborative writing with AI [Andrew Mayne]; Open AI usage guidelines; Ethical AI usage for authors [ALLi]. Get 33% off my ebooks, audiobooks and courses for the rest of 2022. Use coupon 2022 at checkout at CreativePennBooks.com (ebooks and audio, not print), and/or TheCreativePenn.com/learn for courses. Valid until end of 2022. Today's podcast sponsor is Findaway Voices, which gives you access to the world's largest network of audiobook sellers and everything you need to create and sell professional audiobooks. Take back your freedom. Choose your price, choose how you sell, choose how you distribute audio. Check it out at FindawayVoices.com. Dan Padavona is the best-selling and award-nominated author of thrillers and mysteries, including the Wolf Lake Thrillers and Logan and Scarlett Serial Killer thrillers. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes How — and why — to pivot genres Combining what you want to write and what sellsCreating a new audience when pivoting genresAre Facebook ads and AMS ads still worth it?Financial factors that influence the decision to become a full-time writerRevitalizing a series with Facebook adsThe importance of a positive mindset and how to stay motivated for the long term You can find Dan at DanPadavona.com Dan has now started The Author's Mindset series. Image generated by Joanna Penn on Midjourney. Transcript of Interview with Dan Padavona Joanna: Dan Padavona is the best-selling and award-nominated author of thrillers and mysteries, including the Wolf Lake Thrillers and Logan and Scarlett Serial Killer thrillers. So welcome to the show, Dan. Dan: Thank you so much, Joanna. It's a pleasure to be here. Joanna: Oh, I'm excited to talk to you. But before we get into it – Tell us a little bit more about you and how you got into writing and self-publishing. Dan: Writing came to me very late in life. I did some writing as a child. I wrote a few short stories during high school, which ended up getting published in the school newspaper. It interested me back then, but I didn't really follow through on it.  Now, I do have a communications degree, which is somewhat angling towards that direction. But I ended up going into atmospheric sciences and meteorology eventually. And I think I became a writer because I love reading. It was probably late 2013, early 2014, I read a fictional book, which absolutely blew me away, and I just knew right then and there, I needed to create something like this. Not that I could ever create something quite that brilliant, but I got into writing and I read everything that I could on the subject of writing. I began as a horror author in 2014, switched to thrillers in 2018, and that's pretty much where things took off for me. Joanna:  So we'll circle back on that. But you said you came to writing late in life. I didn't think you were that old, actually. Can you give us a sense of what time of your life you started? Dan: I still get proofed if I buy wine, but I am actually 54 now. I started writing in 2014, so that would have made me 46 at the time. Joanna: Okay. And then, like you said, things took off in 2018, so you were 50. And I think that's really great because so many people are like, “oh, I have missed the chance to become a writer.” And my mum wrote her first book at 72, so there's no need to think that. For people listening, it's never too late. So you were in meteorology. That's like a weatherman? Dan: That's right. I did that since 1994. I retired in September of 2021, so there was 27 years of that. I loved the job and I loved the people, but the shift work was killing me. It had really for 27 years, and that's what made my decision for me to make a move. Otherwise, I think I would still be doing it. I was just so blessed by writing and the way my career took off, that I was making many times my income that I was working at my day job. So it was kind of like, well, I could do this for four hours a day and make a lot, or I could do that for eight or nine hours a day and make a little. So you know, easy choice. Joanna: Oh, it is. And we're gonna dig into all of that. But you said you started out writing horror, and I think that's where I must have first seen you. Did you co-write something with J Thorn? Dan: I did. Yeah. Joanna: Like everyone has, clearly. I have. Dan: That's right. He's like the Kevin Bacon of writing. Joanna: He is. Dan: There may be eight degrees of separation when it comes to J Thorn. And he's been a good friend ever since too. He pretty much is to everybody in the industry. Joanna: Oh, absolutely. You started out writing horror, so why did you decide to pivot into mysteries and thrillers? Like I love reading horror and I write a little bit of horror, and mysteries and thrillers is a much more mainstream niche. But kind of talk us through why you decided to make that change. Dan: There's two different reasons, I think. The first was financially, I just wasn't making money at writing horror. And I felt that the genre itself had very voracious fans who read it, but there aren't that many of them. And they're shrinking too, which I just find mind boggling because I grew up loving horror. And when I was a kid, you couldn't swing a cat without hitting a Friday the 13th or Halloween movie, and that's what dominated Hollywood. These days, horror just seems to be kind of taking a backburner, and I'm not sure why that is. But it wasn't purely for financial reasons, though. I hit a point too in my life where I think I'd become a more positive person. And I was writing some really dark horror, and putting myself in those places day after day was one of the reasons why I procrastinated about writing. I just couldn't bring myself to do it every day, and I needed to change. Now, that doesn't change what I read. I still read plenty of horror. I'm a huge Jack Ketchum fan. I love Stephen King. Dean Koontz, obviously. He was probably more thriller than horror anyway. I still love those types of books, but writing them, to me, eventually became a little bit suffocating. Joanna: Craft-wise, you said there that the horror readership is shrinking. I wonder if it's because what people used to call horror is now moved into all kinds of other genres. So for example, it used to be anything with a vampire in it was horror. And now you could say it's urban fantasy, or dark fantasy. So I almost feel like horror, just the word, used to cover so much. Now there are so many granular subgenres that are not in horror, but yet, they really are what horror used to be. Dan: Yeah, I think that that is an excellent point, and it has become a lot more fragmented. Vampires, you brought up vampires, that's probably the ultimate example. The first book I ever wrote was a book called Storberry, which was horribly titled and probably was the reason nobody ever found it. But it was essentially a love letter to Stephen King's Salem's Lot. I wanted to return to the old school vampire horror that I found just absolutely wonderful growing up with, and it was haunting, and get it away from Twilight and all those other directions that vampire movies and TV shows were heading in. There's nothing wrong with Twilight or Buffy the Vampire Slayer. But I just felt that there was no Salem's Lot anymore. There were no frightening vampires. And that's why I wanted to head in that direction. Joanna: I think that's interesting. I mean, many people listening will be like, “oh, I don't write horror,” but they're actually writing some kind of it. But like post-apocalyptic, we both know Zach Bohannon as well, that's kind of horror, but post-apoc is its own thing. There's so many subgenres. Then it's interesting, so you said you're a positive person and writing all that dark stuff was difficult, but you've got serial killer thrillers, and they're some of your bestsellers. And it's so funny, because I love reading horror, but I struggle reading serial killers, I find them more disturbing than reading horror. So how did you identify serial killers as a genre? And how on earth is it not as dark as your other stuff? Dan: That's probably going to be a multifaceted answer to that one. So to start with, serial killers I think are more frightening for most people, because — well, alright, I'm not gonna say the vampires don't exist. Some people do believe that they exist, I don't. But serial killers most definitely exist. And one could be living next door to you. That's a very frightening prospect. As far as how did I happen upon them, I love Thomas Harris, I love all the Hannibal books and movies. With me, it's not just the horror, which is part of that, but it's also the hunt. It's also the mystery that surrounds it. So when I was trying to decide, well, what am I going to write, in 2017-2018 — I was actually really close to just stopping writing at all because writing is so difficult. It takes up all your time and all your mental energy. And if you're not seeing any results from that, as far as great reviews, money, whatever, then it's hard to summon the strength to do it every day. So I wanted to try something else – And I kind of looked at writing and success as like separate Venn diagrams. So in one circle you would have a list of things that you love to either read or write.