No Small Endeavor with Lee C. Camp

What happens when a church starts thinking like a brand, and hires people to protect its image? In this episode, we explore the rise of reputation management inside religious institutions, starting with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and its growing ecosystem of influencers, media strategy, and image control. From the “second Mormon moment” on social media to The Secret Lives of Mormon Wives, we ask what it means when faith communities adopt the tools of PR and branding. Along the way, we look at how reputation management can shape not just perception, but truth, connecting it to broader questions of power, storytelling, and what gets protected (or buried) in the name of a larger mission, including the complicated legacy of figures like Cesar Chavez. When reputation matters most, who pays the price? Things we mentioned in this episode: New Seeds of Contemplation by Thomas Merton Follow The Subtext: Instagram | Threads | X | YouTube | TikTok Follow Lee: Instagram | Twitter | Lee's Newsletter Follow Savannah: Instagram | Substack Join our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

We’re building smarter, faster tools every day, but are they helping us live better lives or just accelerating us in the wrong direction? In part two of The Human Cost of AI, Lee C. Camp shifts from diagnosing the forces behind the AI revolution to discerning how we might live well within it. Drawing on voices from neuroscience, theology, and philosophy, this episode explores three essential questions around purpose, human dignity, and agency. At stake is nothing less than authentic human flourishing in a technological age. Key Ideas: -Clarify Your Purpose In a culture obsessed with speed and efficiency, we must ask why we are using AI and whether it serves meaningful living or misdirected progress. -Reimagine What’s Human As machines replicate language and reasoning, we are invited to rediscover human dignity through embodiment and relationship. -Practice Courageous Agency Even without control over systems, we can resist, choose differently, and cultivate habits that align technology with the common good. ⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode 2 of The Human Cost of AI⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Josh Brake. What if the tools shaping our future are also reshaping our humanity? As part of our series The Human Cost of AI, Josh Brake stands out as a uniquely thoughtful voice, bringing together engineering, philosophy, and theology to ask deeper questions about technology and human flourishing. We wanted to bring you the full, unabridged conversation that Josh and Lee had. This is a rich and honest exploration of what it means to live wisely, faithfully, and humanly in an age of artificial intelligence. ⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode 1 of The Human Cost of AI⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Lee and Savannah welcome a guest on this week’s episode to discuss why everyone hates poetry! In the hot seat is professor and poet Donovan McAbee, who recently published Holy the Body, a collection of poems exploring loss, grief, and doubt. Together, they talk about the beauty of uncertainty and how poetry can be the translator of life’s darkest experiences. If you liked the selected poems McAbee read on this episode, make sure to pick up a copy of Holy the Body! Things we mentioned in this episode: Holy the Body by Donovan McAbee Selected Poems by Seamus Heaney Endurance by Alfred Lansing The Frozen River by Ariel Lawhon Viola Davis on Good Hang with Amy Poehler Falling by James L. Dickey Praying Drunk by Andrew Hudgins Models of the Church by Avery Dulles Follow Donovan McAbee: Instagram Follow The Subtext: Instagram | Threads | X | YouTube | TikTok Follow Lee: Instagram | Twitter | Lee's Newsletter Follow Savannah: Instagram | Substack Join our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What if the greatest danger of AI isn’t that it becomes human, but that it reshapes what it means to be one? In part one of this series, we explore artificial intelligence through a sobering insight: every ship we build also creates the possibility of a shipwreck. The question is not whether AI will save us or destroy us, but how our own formation may already be the collateral damage of its rise. To trace the human cost of AI, we follow three fault lines: tools, sex, and money. We examine how these technologies shape our habits and desires, and how they are shaped by the systems of power we live within. Along the way, we hear from leading scholars and technologists, including computer scientist Josh Brake, philosopher Joe Vukov, MIT professor Rosalind Picard, journalist Garrett Graff, and data scientist Rumman Chowdhury. Together, they challenge the idea that AI is merely a neutral tool, revealing how it quietly directs our attention, relationships, and sense of purpose and inviting us to reconsider what it means to live well and remain human, in an age of powerful machines. Key Ideas: -Rethink “Just a Tool” Technologies are never neutral; their design subtly shapes our habits, attention, and even our sense of agency. -Ask Who You’re Becoming The deeper question isn’t what we use AI for, but how it forms our character and communities over time. -Resist the Illusion of Understanding AI systems can mimic human thought, but they do not understand meaning—reminding us to value uniquely human forms of knowing. -Guard Your Desire AI’s ability to simulate intimacy risks reshaping our longings, training us toward convenience over genuine relationship. -Follow the Incentives Behind every AI system are economic forces that prioritize engagement and profit, often at the expense of human flourishing. -Recover a Fuller Humanity Being human is more than intelligence—it includes embodiment, relationships, and moral responsibility that no machine can replicate. Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode 1 of The Human Cost of AI Join NSE+ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow @nosmallendeavor  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow @leeccamp  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Matt Lee. What if flourishing isn’t something you achieve, but something you share? Sociologist and human flourishing scholar Matthew T. Lee reflects on his unlikely journey from studying homicide to exploring love as a social practice. Drawing on research, philosophy, and lived experience, he challenges individualistic definitions of success and offers a richer vision rooted in community, dialogue, and mutual care. He insists that all flourishing is mutual. Key Ideas: -Flourish Together or Not at All True human flourishing is mutual, it cannot exist at the expense of others or the world around us. -From Isolation to Interdependence His “forest” metaphor reveals that our lives are deeply interconnected, sharing resources and meaning beneath the surface. -Love as a Social Practice Flourishing grows through lived practices of love, not just ideas, especially in restorative justice and everyday relationships. -Rethink Success and Happiness The Global Flourishing study has found that material wealth and personal satisfaction alone are insufficient; flourishing includes virtue, relationships, and contribution to others. -Dialogue Over Monologue Transformation begins when we move beyond certainty and enter into genuine dialogue that reshapes how we see others and ourselves. -Build Small Communities of Hope Change doesn’t start at scale; it begins with small, intentional communities practicing a better way of being human. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources and Transcript⁠⁠ for abridged episode with Matt Lee ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Is being an influencer on social media a calling? Can public-facing work align with a life of service? In this episode, Savannah and Lee unpack a viral influencer video and explore what it means to have a dream, how it connects to vocation, and what it really means to make an impact in the world. Things we mentioned in this episode: NYT Cooking Black Sesame Rice Krispies Treats Dept. Q Paradise Cup of Tea by Kacey Musgraves Who is My Enemy by Lee C. Camp  The Seven Storey Mountain by Thomas Merton The Summer Day by Mary Oliver Markings by Dag Hammarskjold The Pretender by Jackson Browne Follow The Subtext: Instagram | Threads | X | YouTube | TikTok Follow Lee: Instagram | Twitter | Lee's Newsletter Follow Savannah: Instagram | Substack Join our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What if flourishing isn’t something you achieve, but something you share? Sociologist and human flourishing scholar Matthew T. Lee reflects on his unlikely journey from studying homicide to exploring love as a social practice. Drawing on research, philosophy, and lived experience, he challenges individualistic definitions of success and offers a richer vision rooted in community, dialogue, and mutual care. He insists that all flourishing is mutual. Key Ideas: -Flourish Together or Not at All True human flourishing is mutual, it cannot exist at the expense of others or the world around us. -From Isolation to Interdependence His “forest” metaphor reveals that our lives are deeply interconnected, sharing resources and meaning beneath the surface. -Love as a Social Practice Flourishing grows through lived practices of love, not just ideas, especially in restorative justice and everyday relationships. -Rethink Success and Happiness The Global Flourishing study has found that material wealth and personal satisfaction alone are insufficient; flourishing includes virtue, relationships, and contribution to others. -Dialogue Over Monologue Transformation begins when we move beyond certainty and enter into genuine dialogue that reshapes how we see others and ourselves. -Build Small Communities of Hope Change doesn’t start at scale; it begins with small, intentional communities practicing a better way of being human. ⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources and Transcript⁠⁠ for abridged episode with Matt Lee⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Laurie Santos. Many of us spend years chasing the things we believe will make us happy, success, recognition, the next promotion, the perfect relationship, only to discover they don’t satisfy the way we expected. Why are we so often wrong about what will make our lives better? Yale psychologist Dr. Laurie Santos, creator of the most popular course in Yale’s history, Psychology and the Good Life, joins Lee C. Camp to explore the science of well-being. Drawing from decades of research in psychology and happiness science, Santos explains why our minds often “miswant” things we think will make us happy, but won’t actually do so. We cover how social comparison continually moves the goal post of our satisfaction and why practices like gratitude, social connection, and self-compassion actually do move the needle on well-being.  Key Ideas Correct Our “Miswanting” Humans consistently mispredict what will make them happy, often overvaluing achievements, money, or status while underestimating the power of relationships, gratitude, and meaningful activity. Practice the Bronze Mindset Happiness often depends on our reference point; learning to focus on what we have rather than what we narrowly missed can transform how we experience success and disappointment. Invest in Real Connection Genuine social interaction—from deep friendships to small conversations with strangers—remains one of the strongest predictors of long-term well-being. Embrace Negative Emotions as Signals Feelings like sadness, loneliness, or overwhelm are not failures of happiness but important psychological signals that guide us toward needed changes. Turn Knowledge Into Practice Knowing the science of happiness isn’t enough; lasting flourishing comes through habits—small, repeated behaviors like gratitude, rest, and time affluence. Take Baby Steps Toward Well-Being Even small practices—ten minutes of meditation, a gratitude journal entry, or a meaningful conversation—can gradually shift our lives toward greater happiness. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources and Transcript⁠⁠ for abridged episode with Laurie Santos⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Back by popular demand! Class is back in session this week as Lee and Savannah walk through Dispensationalism for Dummies, Christian Nationalism, and Just War Tradition in light of our current moment. So grab your notebooks and pens because you’re going to need them! What do you think? Do we need a part 3? Things we mentioned in this episode: Theo of Golden by Allen Levi Lady Tremaine by Rachel Hochhauser Man in the High Castle The Just War Tradition by Daniel Bell Follow The Subtext: Instagram | Threads | X | YouTube | TikTok Follow Lee: Instagram | Twitter | Lee's Newsletter Follow Savannah: Instagram | Substack Join our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Many of us spend years chasing the things we believe will make us happy, success, recognition, the next promotion, the perfect relationship, only to discover they don’t satisfy the way we expected. Why are we so often wrong about what will make our lives better? Yale psychologist Dr. Laurie Santos, creator of the most popular course in Yale’s history, Psychology and the Good Life, joins Lee C. Camp to explore the science of well-being. Drawing from decades of research in psychology and happiness science, Santos explains why our minds often “miswant” things we think will make us happy, but won’t actually do so. We cover how social comparison continually moves the goal post of our satisfaction and why practices like gratitude, social connection, and self-compassion actually do move the needle on well-being.  Key Ideas Correct Our “Miswanting” Humans consistently mispredict what will make them happy, often overvaluing achievements, money, or status while underestimating the power of relationships, gratitude, and meaningful activity. Practice the Bronze Mindset Happiness often depends on our reference point; learning to focus on what we have rather than what we narrowly missed can transform how we experience success and disappointment. Invest in Real Connection Genuine social interaction—from deep friendships to small conversations with strangers—remains one of the strongest predictors of long-term well-being. Embrace Negative Emotions as Signals Feelings like sadness, loneliness, or overwhelm are not failures of happiness but important psychological signals that guide us toward needed changes. Turn Knowledge Into Practice Knowing the science of happiness isn’t enough; lasting flourishing comes through habits—small, repeated behaviors like gratitude, rest, and time affluence. Take Baby Steps Toward Well-Being Even small practices—ten minutes of meditation, a gratitude journal entry, or a meaningful conversation—can gradually shift our lives toward greater happiness. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources and Transcript⁠⁠ for abridged episode with Laurie Santos⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Sonja Lyubomirsky. What if the secret to happiness isn’t success, status, or even positive thinking, but the simple act of letting yourself be known? Psychologist and bestselling author Sonja Lyubomirsky has spent more than three decades studying human happiness. She shares from her new book, ⁠How to Feel Loved: The Five Mindsets That Get You More of What Matters Most⁠, about what science reveals about gratitude, kindness, hedonic adaptation, and the surprising limits of life circumstances. Her newest research goes even deeper: happiness flourishes when we feel genuinely loved, and that begins not by impressing others, but by becoming known. Key Ideas: Rethink What Happiness Is: Happiness is both feeling good in your life and feeling satisfied with your life—an interplay of emotion, meaning, and progress toward what matters. Don’t Chase Circumstances: Beyond basic needs, new cars, promotions, and bigger houses bring only temporary boosts because of hedonic adaptation. Practice What You Can Control: Gratitude, acts of kindness, and intentional habits can measurably increase well-being—even influencing immune health. Lead With Curiosity: The first step to feeling loved is helping someone else feel loved—through genuine questions, deep listening, and real presence. Choose Vulnerable Connection: We feel loved not when we impress others, but when we allow ourselves to be seen in our full humanity. Adopt the Multiplicity Mindset: No single behavior defines you—or anyone else; compassion grows when we remember we are all complex, unfinished quilts of strengths and flaws. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources and Transcript⁠⁠ for abridged episode with Sonja Lyubomirsky⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Let’s talk about the billion-dollar industry that turns friendship into a sales funnel, and women into its favorite target. They show up in your DMs with compliments before they show up with a pitch. They promise community, purpose, and financial freedom. But behind the glossy before-and-afters and the "girl boss" energy, multi-level marketing companies have a darker history, and a devastatingly predictable math. This week, Savannah and Lee trace the origins of MLMs from a vitamin salesman in the 1930s all the way to your Instagram inbox, unpack why women have always been the primary target, and ask the harder questions: what happens when community gets weaponized for profit, and what does it mean that 99% of recruits lose money, and keep recruiting anyway? Things we mentioned in this episode: Strangers by Belle Burden Savannah's new album Songs of Peace in Times of War Apple Music | Spotify Humoresque by Antonín Dvořák AI Series on No Small Endeavor releases on April 6th! Follow The Subtext: Instagram | Threads | X | YouTube | TikTok Follow Lee: Instagram | Twitter | Lee's Newsletter Follow Savannah: Instagram | Substack Join our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What if the secret to happiness isn’t success, status, or even positive thinking, but the simple act of letting yourself be known? Psychologist and bestselling author Sonja Lyubomirsky has spent more than three decades studying human happiness. She shares from her new book, ⁠How to Feel Loved: The Five Mindsets That Get You More of What Matters Most⁠, about what science reveals about gratitude, kindness, hedonic adaptation, and the surprising limits of life circumstances. Her newest research goes even deeper: happiness flourishes when we feel genuinely loved, and that begins not by impressing others, but by becoming known. Key Ideas: Rethink What Happiness Is: Happiness is both feeling good in your life and feeling satisfied with your life—an interplay of emotion, meaning, and progress toward what matters. Don’t Chase Circumstances: Beyond basic needs, new cars, promotions, and bigger houses bring only temporary boosts because of hedonic adaptation. Practice What You Can Control: Gratitude, acts of kindness, and intentional habits can measurably increase well-being—even influencing immune health. Lead With Curiosity: The first step to feeling loved is helping someone else feel loved—through genuine questions, deep listening, and real presence. Choose Vulnerable Connection: We feel loved not when we impress others, but when we allow ourselves to be seen in our full humanity. Adopt the Multiplicity Mindset: No single behavior defines you—or anyone else; compassion grows when we remember we are all complex, unfinished quilts of strengths and flaws. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources and Transcript⁠⁠ for abridged episode with Sonja Lyubomirsky⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Ronald Rolheiser. What if the final chapter of your life could become your greatest gift? In this deeply wise conversation, Father Ronald Rolheiser joins Lee C. Camp to explore the spiritual invitation of aging. Drawing from his latest book ⁠Insane for the Light: A Spirituality for Our Wisdom Years⁠, Rolheiser reflects on loneliness, diminishment, forgiveness, and what it means to give not only our lives—but our deaths—away. This episode offers profound wisdom for anyone seeking authentic human flourishing in the final seasons of life. Key Ideas: Give Your Death Away The final stage of life invites us to offer our vulnerability and diminishment as a gift, leaving behind a spirit of peace rather than resentment. Choose Your Old Fool Aging makes us all “old fools”—but we can become pathetic, angry, or holy, depending on whether we cling, resent, or receive with grace. Grieve So You Don’t Grow Bitter Unhealed wounds harden into anger over time, but grieving what cannot be undone allows the soul to mellow. Live from the “Above Mind” Jesus’ call to metanoia invites us out of defensive paranoia into open-handed trust, courage, and love. Practice Gratitude and Forgiveness In the wisdom years, the spiritual vocabulary simplifies. Two words remain: gratitude and forgiveness.⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources and Transcript⁠⁠ for abridged episode with Ronald Rolheiser⁠⁠⁠ Thank you to our sponsors: Boll and Branch: Get 20% off plus free shipping by visiting ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BollAndBranch.com/NSE⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What happens when dispensational theology or Christian nationalism directly informs foreign policy without critical reflection or moral accountability?  In this episode, we get to hear from the Professor himself, Lee C. Camp, as he takes the podium to trace the historical roots of Christian nonviolence, exploring how followers of Jesus have wrestled with war and peace across the centuries. Savannah and Lee examine reports that more than 200 complaints have been filed by members of the U.S. armed forces regarding commanding officers invoking “God’s divine plan” to justify military action. These stories raise a pressing question at the intersection of faith, power, and policy: War—what is it good for? Things we mentioned in this episode: Jemar Tisby on No Small Endeavor Christian Attitudes Toward War and Peace by Roland H. Bainton Christian attitudes to war, peace, and revolution: a companion to Bainton by John Howard Yoder Who Is My Enemy? by Lee C. Camp With God on Our Side by Bob Dylan Also: pre-save Savannah's album! Some of our sources! US troops were told war on Iran was ‘all part of God’s divine plan’, watchdog alleges (The Guardian) MRFF Inundated with Complaints of Gleeful Commanders Telling Troops Iran War is “Part of God’s Divine Plan” to Usher in the Return of Jesus Christ (MRFF) Jemar Tisby on Threads Why Would Some Christians Be Excited About War With Iran? Benjamin Cremer on Substack Follow The Subtext: Instagram | Threads | X | YouTube | TikTok Follow Lee: Instagram | Twitter | Lee's Newsletter Follow Savannah: Instagram | Substack Join our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What if the final chapter of your life could become your greatest gift? In this deeply wise conversation, Father Ronald Rolheiser joins Lee C. Camp to explore the spiritual invitation of aging. Drawing from his latest book ⁠Insane for the Light: A Spirituality for Our Wisdom Years⁠, Rolheiser reflects on loneliness, diminishment, forgiveness, and what it means to give not only our lives—but our deaths—away. This episode offers profound wisdom for anyone seeking authentic human flourishing in the final seasons of life. Key Ideas: Give Your Death Away The final stage of life invites us to offer our vulnerability and diminishment as a gift, leaving behind a spirit of peace rather than resentment. Choose Your Old Fool Aging makes us all “old fools”—but we can become pathetic, angry, or holy, depending on whether we cling, resent, or receive with grace. Grieve So You Don’t Grow Bitter Unhealed wounds harden into anger over time, but grieving what cannot be undone allows the soul to mellow. Live from the “Above Mind” Jesus’ call to metanoia invites us out of defensive paranoia into open-handed trust, courage, and love. Practice Gratitude and Forgiveness In the wisdom years, the spiritual vocabulary simplifies. Two words remain: gratitude and forgiveness.⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources and Transcript⁠⁠ for abridged episode with Ronald Rolheiser⁠⁠⁠ Thank you to our sponsors: Boll and Branch: Get 20% off plus free shipping by visiting ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BollAndBranch.com/NSE⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Kim Stanley Robinson. Do you feel the weight of climate dread—and wonder whether hope is still intellectually honest? Acclaimed science fiction writer Kim Stanley Robinson joins Lee C. Camp to name our shared fear about the future without surrendering to despair. Drawing from ⁠The Ministry for the Future⁠, Robinson offers a sober, deeply hopeful vision of change, one rooted not in heroics or denial, but in ordinary people, communal action, and the slow work of making things better. Together they explore how science, faith, and moral imagination can help us live well, even in a warming world. Key Ideas: Hope Without Illusion Robinson shows how genuine hope can coexist with fear, grounding optimism in science, collective action, and moral resolve rather than denial. Ordinary People Matter History often turns not on heroes or villains, but on everyday people, bureaucrats, scientists, neighbors, who do the right thing at critical moments. Utopia as Process A better future isn’t a flawless destination, but a continual movement toward less suffering, greater justice, and deeper solidarity. The Sacredness of the Biosphere Care for the planet is not just technical or political work, but a form of devotion rooted in humility, wonder, and reverence for life. Community Over Individualism Human flourishing depends on shared systems, food, labor, science, and governance that remind us how deeply we rely on one another. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠ ⁠Show Notes, Resources and Transcript⁠⁠ for abridged episode with Kim Stanley Robinson⁠ Thank you to our sponsors: Boll and Branch: Get 20% off plus free shipping by visiting ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BollAndBranch.com/NSE⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

With their new EP Days of Ash, U2 turns up the volume on grief, protest, and hope. What exactly are they trying to say? This week on The Subtext, we dive into U2’s new Days of Ash EP. From Holocaust memory and lament in “The Tears of Things,” to Iranian resistance in “Song of the Future,” to questions about politics, rights, and God’s power in “American Obituary,” we explore how theology, politics, and art intertwine in U2’s latest offering to the world. Things we mentioned in this episode: Theo of Golden by Allen Levi Surrender by Bono Days of Ash - U2 Night by Elie Wiesel The Tears of Things by Richard Rohr With God on Our Side - Bob Dylan Stream Savannah's new single "God Have Mercy" (it's beautiful!)  Follow The Subtext: Instagram | Threads | X | YouTube | TikTok Follow Lee: Instagram | Twitter | Lee's Newsletter Follow Savannah: Instagram | Substack Join our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Do you feel the weight of climate dread—and wonder whether hope is still intellectually honest? Acclaimed science fiction writer Kim Stanley Robinson joins Lee C. Camp to name our shared fear about the future without surrendering to despair. Drawing from ⁠The Ministry for the Future⁠, Robinson offers a sober, deeply hopeful vision of change, one rooted not in heroics or denial, but in ordinary people, communal action, and the slow work of making things better. Together they explore how science, faith, and moral imagination can help us live well, even in a warming world. Key Ideas: Hope Without Illusion Robinson shows how genuine hope can coexist with fear, grounding optimism in science, collective action, and moral resolve rather than denial. Ordinary People Matter History often turns not on heroes or villains, but on everyday people, bureaucrats, scientists, neighbors, who do the right thing at critical moments. Utopia as Process A better future isn’t a flawless destination, but a continual movement toward less suffering, greater justice, and deeper solidarity. The Sacredness of the Biosphere Care for the planet is not just technical or political work, but a form of devotion rooted in humility, wonder, and reverence for life. Community Over Individualism Human flourishing depends on shared systems, food, labor, science, and governance that remind us how deeply we rely on one another. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠ ⁠Show Notes, Resources and Transcript⁠⁠ for abridged episode with Kim Stanley Robinson⁠ Thank you to our sponsors: Boll and Branch: Get 20% off plus free shipping by visiting ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BollAndBranch.com/NSE⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Paul Rosolie. He’s been dragged through the Amazon on the back of a giant anaconda, stood in seventy-foot flames trying to save burning animals, and slept on jungle floors for decades to protect a forest most of us will never see. Conservationist and author Paul Rosolie joins Lee C. Camp to tell the extraordinary story of how a dyslexic kid from Brooklyn followed a calling into the Amazon rainforest — and gave his life to protecting it. From near-death encounters and viral moments to faith, sacrifice, and hope, this conversation explores what it truly takes to change the world and why the future of human flourishing is inseparable from the fate of the wild. Key Ideas: -Answer the Call: Paul’s life shows how vocation often begins not with credentials, but with saying yes to the next faithful step placed before you. -Love What You Protect: Conservation, Paul argues, is not driven by ideology but by intimacy — knowing rivers, animals, and people well enough to fight for them. -Stay Human in Crisis: Facing ecological collapse without despair requires resisting cynicism and choosing hope as a disciplined, courageous act. -Courage Is Costly: Following a true calling often demands sacrifice — financial, relational, and personal — but meaning grows precisely in that cost. -The World Is Connected: The Amazon is not “out there”; it regulates climate, water, and life everywhere, binding New York, Bangalore, and the jungle canopy together. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources and Transcript⁠⁠ for abridged episode with Paul Rosolie⁠ Thank you to our sponsors: Boll and Branch: Get 20% off plus free shipping by visiting ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BollAndBranch.com/NSE⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What does it actually look like to take responsibility when you’ve shaped a culture that harmed people? Is saying “I’m sorry” enough? This week on The Subtext, we revisit the cultural reckoning around America’s Next Top Model and ask what meaningful accountability looks like for those who shaped, and benefited from, harmful beauty standards. Is acknowledging harm enough, or does repentance require repair? Turning to the story of Zacchaeus in Luke 19, we explore a biblical model of costly repentance that doesn’t just confess wrongdoing but restores what was taken. Things we mentioned in this episode: Ben Cohen on No Small Endeavor (don't forget to leave us a review!) Follow The Subtext: Instagram | Threads | X | YouTube | TikTok Follow Lee: Instagram | Twitter | Lee's Newsletter Follow Savannah: Instagram | Substack Join our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

He’s been dragged through the Amazon on the back of a giant anaconda, stood in seventy-foot flames trying to save burning animals, and slept on jungle floors for decades to protect a forest most of us will never see. Conservationist and author Paul Rosolie joins Lee C. Camp to tell the extraordinary story of how a dyslexic kid from Brooklyn followed a calling into the Amazon rainforest — and gave his life to protecting it. From near-death encounters and viral moments to faith, sacrifice, and hope, this conversation explores what it truly takes to change the world and why the future of human flourishing is inseparable from the fate of the wild. Key Ideas: Answer the Call Paul’s life shows how vocation often begins not with credentials, but with saying yes to the next faithful step placed before you. Love What You Protect Conservation, Paul argues, is not driven by ideology but by intimacy — knowing rivers, animals, and people well enough to fight for them. Stay Human in Crisis Facing ecological collapse without despair requires resisting cynicism and choosing hope as a disciplined, courageous act. Courage Is Costly Following a true calling often demands sacrifice — financial, relational, and personal — but meaning grows precisely in that cost. The World Is Connected The Amazon is not “out there”; it regulates climate, water, and life everywhere, binding New York, Bangalore, and the jungle canopy together. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources and Transcript⁠⁠ for abridged episode with Paul Rosolie Thank you to our sponsors: Boll and Branch: Get 20% off plus free shipping by visiting ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BollAndBranch.com/NSE⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Alexandra Solomon.  Is your love life in need of a tune-up?  Just in time for Valentine's Day, renowned relationship expert Dr. Alexandra Solomon joins us to share powerful insights from her book, "Loving Bravely."  Discover how self-awareness and understanding your past can dramatically improve your present relationships.  Dr. Solomon unpacks the secrets to thriving intimacy, from mastering the art of apology to staying truly present with your partner.  Plus, get practical tools for navigating the inevitable challenges of long-term love.  Tune in for this insightful conversation that will empower you to build stronger, more fulfilling relationships. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources and Transcript⁠⁠ for abridged episode with Alexandra Solomon Thank you to our sponsors: Boll and Branch: Get 20% off plus free shipping by visiting ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BollAndBranch.com/NSE⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

When the artists, authors, and celebrities we admire disappoint us, where’s the line between appreciating their work and endorsing their behavior? After the Grammys reignited the “stay in your lane” debate, we revisit the question: Do we tell celebrities to be quiet because we don’t want to wrestle with what they believe? A listener email pushes us deeper, prompting us to ask what we do when artists we admire act immorally or hold views we reject. From Philip Yancey’s recent confession to pop culture figures like Andrew Huberman and Brad Pitt, we explore whether moral failure cancels insight, whether grace eliminates consequences, and how social media tribalism intensifies the dilemma. Can we separate art from the artist? Or are we always participating in what we platform? Things we mentioned in this episode: Desert Solitaire by Edward Abbey Against the Machine by Paul Kingsnorth Theo of Golden by Allen Levi Hunter Biden on the Shawn Ryan Show You've Got Mail Follow The Subtext: Instagram | Threads | X | YouTube | TikTok Follow Lee: Instagram | Twitter | Lee's Newsletter Follow Savannah: Instagram | Substack Join our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This week, we’re sharing a conversation originally recorded for Preston Sprinkle’s podcast, Theology in the Raw. It’s a wide-ranging, thoughtful dialogue that digs into political theology, Christian nationalism, just war theory, technology, and the deeper question underneath it all: What kind of people are we becoming? Lee joins Preston for an honest and at times searching conversation about the pressures facing the church in our current political and technological moment. Key Themes: Christian Nationalism — Then and Now Why Christian nationalism is not just a “right-wing” problem The surprising history of progressive Christian nationalism (Woodrow Wilson and World War I) How allegiance to a nation can distort allegiance to Christ The church’s temptation to baptize political power Recovering Forgotten Christian Traditions The pacifist roots of the Stone-Campbell movement How World War I reshaped American Christianity Why most Christians have never actually been taught the Just War tradition The difference between claiming Just War and being morally formed by it Violence, War, and Christian Witness Why the Just War tradition is far more rigorous than most assume The danger of defaulting to state power without serious moral discernment What it might mean to “bear witness to the way of Christ” in a violent world Why the church’s formation matters more than hypothetical “what would you do?” scenarios Social Media, Anger, and the Business Model of Outrage How the ad-revenue model rewards anger Why social platforms amplify division by design The spiritual consequences of living online Why disengaging can sometimes be an act of wisdom Technology, AI, and Moral Formation Drawing on Jacques Ellul’s concept of “technique” Why the real question isn’t whether technology is a tool The deeper question: What kind of character is being formed in us? Why Christians need to think more seriously about AI and moral responsibility A Life Without a Cell Phone Why Lee hasn’t owned a cell phone in eight years The “serenity tax” of opting out Anxiety, distraction, and what it means to be present The difference between using technology and being shaped by it Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Do we have to change something fundamental in ourselves to make a marriage work? In this Valentine's Day special episode of The Subtext, Savannah and Lee discuss the show Couples’ Therapy and the balance between self-betrayal and people-pleasing. And as Stanley Hauerwas says, “Love is not all you need.”  Things we mentioned in this episode: Curt Thompson: The Work Beneath Lasting Love on No Small Endeavor Follow The Subtext: Instagram | Threads | X | YouTube | TikTok Follow Lee: Instagram | Twitter | Lee's Newsletter Follow Savannah: Instagram | Substack Join our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Curt Thompson. What if the deepest work of love isn’t finding the right person, but becoming someone who can truly be known? Psychiatrist and author Dr. Curt Thompson joins Lee C. Camp for a Valentine’s Day conversation about desire, shame, and suffering, and how each shapes our capacity for authentic relationships. Drawing from neuroscience, theology, and lived experience, Dr. Curt Thompson invites us to consider not just what we want, but who we are becoming as we pursue it. This episode explores how being seen, staying present, and walking together through pain can open the way to healing, beauty, and human flourishing. Key Ideas: Desire Shapes Us Our longings are not just about what we want, but about the kind of people we become in the pursuit of those wants. Learn to Be Seen The human need to be known and soothed never disappears, and our healing begins when we risk letting others see the parts we try hardest to hide. Name Shame Honestly Shame thrives in secrecy, but loses its power when the truth of our lives is spoken and met with presence rather than abandonment. Heal in Community Transformation happens when others see the worst of us, and remain, helping us reconnect to ourselves and one another. Suffering with Meaning Pain does not have the final word. When shared and honored, suffering can become a crucible that forms wisdom, compassion, and courage. ⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources and Transcript⁠⁠ for abridged episode with Curt Thompson⁠ Thank you to our sponsors: Boll and Branch: Get 20% off plus free shipping by visiting ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BollAndBranch.com/NSE⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This week on The Subtext, Lee and Savannah break down the rival Super Bowl halftime shows. From Bad Bunny’s vibrant homage to Puerto Rican culture and global pop influence to an “All American” showcase filled with country anthems and faith imagery, these events turned into a mirror for something much bigger. Beneath the spectacle, they explore what these shows say about who we are, who we think we are, and who gets to define what “America” means. Follow The Subtext: ⁠Instagram⁠ | ⁠Threads⁠ | ⁠X⁠ | ⁠YouTube⁠ | ⁠TikTok⁠ Follow Lee: ⁠Instagram⁠ | ⁠Twitter⁠ | ⁠Lee's Newsletter⁠ Follow Savannah: ⁠Instagram⁠ | ⁠Substack⁠ Join our Email List: ⁠nosmallendeavor.com⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What if the deepest work of love isn’t finding the right person, but becoming someone who can truly be known? Psychiatrist and author Dr. Curt Thompson joins Lee C. Camp for a Valentine’s Day conversation about desire, shame, and suffering, and how each shapes our capacity for authentic relationships. Drawing from neuroscience, theology, and lived experience, Dr. Curt Thompson invites us to consider not just what we want, but who we are becoming as we pursue it. This episode explores how being seen, staying present, and walking together through pain can open the way to healing, beauty, and human flourishing. Key Ideas: Desire Shapes Us Our longings are not just about what we want, but about the kind of people we become in the pursuit of those wants. Learn to Be Seen The human need to be known and soothed never disappears, and our healing begins when we risk letting others see the parts we try hardest to hide. Name Shame Honestly Shame thrives in secrecy, but loses its power when the truth of our lives is spoken and met with presence rather than abandonment. Heal in Community Transformation happens when others see the worst of us, and remain, helping us reconnect to ourselves and one another. Suffering with Meaning Pain does not have the final word. When shared and honored, suffering can become a crucible that forms wisdom, compassion, and courage. ⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources and Transcript⁠⁠ for abridged episode with Curt Thompson Thank you to our sponsors: Boll and Branch: Get 20% off plus free shipping by visiting ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BollAndBranch.com/NSE⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This episode has been living rent-free in our heads leading up to the Super Bowl, so we're dropping it back in your feed.  What does it mean when the Super Bowl Halftime Show has become a front line in the latest culture wars? When Turning Point USA launches an “All-American Halftime Show” to rival Bad Bunny’s Super Bowl performance, it’s more than a musical critique; it’s a signal of a culture war. In this episode, Savannah and Lee unpack why something as ordinary as a halftime show can feel like a referendum on faith, family, and freedom. From the backlash that followed Reconstruction to Reagan’s alliance with the religious right, to today’s debates over gender, race, and education, the culture wars have always been about who stays in power. How can we interact with culture wars better? How should we treat “hot topic” issues? Things we mentioned in this episode: Revisionist History: The Alabama Murders The Sun Does Shine by Anthony Ray Hinton James by Percival Everett All the Way to the River by Elizabeth Gilbert Awake by Jen Hatmaker The Courage to be Disliked by Fumitake Koga and Ichiro Kishimi The Many Lives of Mama Love by Lara Love Hardin Bad Faith by Randall Balmer Mere Discipleship by Lee C. Camp All the Buried Women podcast Ed Larson on No Small Endeavor Randall Balmer on No Small Endeavor Garrett Graff on No Small Endeavor Follow The Subtext: Instagram | Threads | X | YouTube | TikTok Follow Lee: Instagram | Twitter | Lee's Newsletter Follow Savannah: Instagram | Substack Join our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Judith Moskowitz. Judith Moskowitz didn’t begin her research career to prove people could thrive in the middle of devastating grief. But that’s where her work led. In the 1990s, Moskowitz was part of a research team studying men caring for partners dying of AIDS. As expected, participants described the overwhelming stress and sorrow. But then something unexpected happened: they asked why no one was asking about the good things in their lives.  Judith Moskowitz has spent decades studying the emotional lives of people under intense life stress. In this episode, she joins host Lee C. Camp for a deeply practical conversation about emotional nuance, the science of positive psychology, and eight research-backed practices anyone can use to increase positive emotion and foster flourishing relationships, even when life is hard. Key Ideas Hold Joy and Sorrow Together Even under extreme stress, positive emotions can coexist with grief and fear—and this emotional diversity strengthens our capacity to cope. Let Emotions Inform You Negative emotions are not enemies to eliminate but signals that offer information about what matters and where change is needed. Notice What Still Shines Learning to notice small positive events—even fleeting ones—can meaningfully increase well-being during difficult seasons. Practice Gentle Awareness Mindful, non-judgmental attention to emotions helps people recognize their inner life without shame or suppression. Choose Compassion Daily Small acts of kindness and self-compassion can interrupt stress cycles and reconnect us to the common good. ⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Judith Moskowitz⁠ Join our subscriber-only community called NSE+ BY ⁠CLICKING HERE⁠  Get ad-free listening, great member-only bonus content, and early access to tickets for our live shows. AND, you're helping make NSE sustainable by becoming a member! No Small Endeavor: An award winning podcast exploring what it means to live a good life, with thought provoking conversations about human flourishing, theology, politics, faith, social sciences, search for meaning, meaning and purpose, practices, common good, truth beauty and goodness, productivity, habit formation, neuroscience, science and religion, social justice, the cardinal virtues, the how of happiness, theology and culture, self development, virtue theory, being human, moral philosophy, and community.Follow ⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠ Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠@leeccamp ⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

You’re not stuck with the mind you have. In this episode of No Small Endeavor, Lee C. Camp speaks with Dr. Lee Warren, neurosurgeon, Iraq War veteran, and author of The Life-Changing Art of Self Brain Surgery, about a hopeful but challenging idea: your mind and your brain are not the same thing. Drawing on neuroscience, faith, and his own experience with trauma and grief, Dr. Warren explores why change is still possible, even when old patterns feel permanent, and what it looks like to reclaim agency over how we respond. This episode is a preview of a longer conversation. The full discussion is available in the NSE+ community. 👉 Join NSE+ HERE Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What happens when betting, profit, and addiction blur into everyday life? Sports betting has moved from the margins into everyday life. It is dominating our phones, our sports, and even our teenagers. In this episode, Savannah and Lee unpack how legalized gambling and prediction markets are shaping culture, forming us, and turning everything from sports to politics into a commodity. Things we mentioned in this episode: ⁠Against the Rules Season 5 with Michael Lewis⁠ ⁠ More from Michael Lewis⁠ Follow The Subtext: ⁠Instagram⁠ | ⁠Threads⁠ | ⁠X⁠ | ⁠YouTube⁠ | ⁠TikTok⁠ Follow Lee: ⁠Instagram⁠ | ⁠Twitter⁠ | ⁠Lee's Newsletter⁠ Follow Savannah: ⁠Instagram⁠ | ⁠Substack⁠ Join our Email List: ⁠nosmallendeavor.com⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Judith Moskowitz didn’t begin her research career to prove people could thrive in the middle of devastating grief. But that’s where her work led. In the 1990s, Moskowitz was part of a research team studying men caring for partners dying of AIDS. As expected, participants described the overwhelming stress and sorrow. But then something unexpected happened: they asked why no one was asking about the good things in their lives.  Judith Moskowitz has spent decades studying the emotional lives of people under intense life stress. In this episode, she joins host Lee C. Camp for a deeply practical conversation about emotional nuance, the science of positive psychology, and eight research-backed practices anyone can use to increase positive emotion and foster flourishing relationships, even when life is hard. Key Ideas Hold Joy and Sorrow Together Even under extreme stress, positive emotions can coexist with grief and fear—and this emotional diversity strengthens our capacity to cope. Let Emotions Inform You Negative emotions are not enemies to eliminate but signals that offer information about what matters and where change is needed. Notice What Still Shines Learning to notice small positive events—even fleeting ones—can meaningfully increase well-being during difficult seasons. Practice Gentle Awareness Mindful, non-judgmental attention to emotions helps people recognize their inner life without shame or suppression. Choose Compassion Daily Small acts of kindness and self-compassion can interrupt stress cycles and reconnect us to the common good. Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Judith Moskowitz Join our subscriber-only community called NSE+ BY CLICKING HERE  Get ad-free listening, great member-only bonus content, and early access to tickets for our live shows. AND, you're helping make NSE sustainable by becoming a member! No Small Endeavor: An award winning podcast exploring what it means to live a good life, with thought provoking conversations about human flourishing, theology, politics, faith, social sciences, search for meaning, meaning and purpose, practices, common good, truth beauty and goodness, productivity, habit formation, neuroscience, science and religion, social justice, the cardinal virtues, the how of happiness, theology and culture, self development, virtue theory, being human, moral philosophy, and community.Follow @nosmallendeavor Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow @leeccamp  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Rumman Chowdhury. What if the greatest danger of artificial intelligence isn’t what it might do someday, but the power it already wields today? Social scientist and AI ethics leader Dr. Rumman Chowdhury joins Lee C. Camp to challenge popular narratives about artificial intelligence, arguing that the real story is not superintelligence or apocalypse, but power, incentives, and responsibility. Drawing on her work at Twitter and her nonprofit Humane Intelligence, Chowdhury explores how systems of surveillance, corporate profit, and moral outsourcing shape our technological future and what it will take to build AI that serves authentic human flourishing. Key Ideas: Learn to Ask “Who Benefits?”Behind every AI system are incentive structures and power arrangements within for-profit companies. Cultivating the habit of asking who gains and who pays the cost helps us see technology more truthfully. Refuse to Blame the MachineCalling harm “the AI’s fault” allows humans and institutions to evade responsibility, so ethical clarity begins by keeping people accountable. Pay Attention to What’s Already HereFears about future AI apocalypse distract us from the real effects already shaping culture, labor, democracy, and community right now. Be Wary of Convenience That Watches YouSurveillance almost always arrives disguised as safety or ease, but recognizing how data collection concentrates power helps us protect human dignity and freedom. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  ⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources and Transcript⁠⁠ for abridged episode with Rumman Chowdhury Thank you to our sponsors: Ka’Chava: Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://kachava.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use code NSE for 15% off your next order Boll and Branch: Get 20% off plus free shipping by visiting ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BollAndBranch.com/NSE⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ AquaTru: Go to  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠AquaTru.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use promo code NSE Piper and Leaf: Get a 10% off discount to the Advent Calendar by using my code 'NSE' at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠piperandleaf.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Should celebrities “stay in their lane” when it comes to political or moral matters? Who gets to speak in public, and why do we only object when it makes us uncomfortable? When Mark Ruffalo spoke out at the Golden Globes about American politics, some applauded his honesty while others told him to “stay in his lane.” In this episode, Savannah and Lee unpack why celebrity activism is celebrated by some and condemned by others, exposing the double standards around fame, faith, politics, and who we think is allowed to speak in public. Things we mentioned in this episode: ⁠Down There by the Train⁠ by Tom Waits ⁠Come On Up To The House⁠ by Tom Waits ⁠Tehran⁠ on Apple TV ⁠Come and Welcome to Jesus Christ by John Bunyan⁠ ⁠The One On The Right Is On The Left Live at the Ryman Auditorium⁠ by Johnny Cash Follow The Subtext: ⁠Instagram⁠ | ⁠Threads⁠ | ⁠X⁠ | ⁠YouTube⁠ | ⁠TikTok⁠ Follow Lee: ⁠Instagram⁠ | ⁠Twitter⁠ | ⁠Lee's Newsletter⁠ Follow Savannah: ⁠Instagram⁠ | ⁠Substack⁠ Join our Email List: ⁠nosmallendeavor.com⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What if the greatest danger of artificial intelligence isn’t what it might do someday, but the power it already wields today? Social scientist and AI ethics leader Dr. Rumman Chowdhury joins Lee C. Camp to challenge popular narratives about artificial intelligence, arguing that the real story is not superintelligence or apocalypse, but power, incentives, and responsibility. Drawing on her work at Twitter and her nonprofit ⁠Humane Intelligence⁠, Chowdhury explores how systems of surveillance, corporate profit, and moral outsourcing shape our technological future and what it will take to build AI that serves authentic human flourishing. Key Ideas: Learn to Ask “Who Benefits?”Behind every AI system are incentive structures and power arrangements within for-profit companies. Cultivating the habit of asking who gains and who pays the cost helps us see technology more truthfully. Refuse to Blame the MachineCalling harm “the AI’s fault” allows humans and institutions to evade responsibility, so ethical clarity begins by keeping people accountable. Pay Attention to What’s Already HereFears about future AI apocalypse distract us from the real effects already shaping culture, labor, democracy, and community right now. Be Wary of Convenience That Watches YouSurveillance almost always arrives disguised as safety or ease, but recognizing how data collection concentrates power helps us protect human dignity and freedom. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠ ⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources and Transcript⁠⁠ for abridged episode with Rumman Chowdhury⁠ Thank you to our sponsors: Ka’Chava: Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://kachava.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use code NSE for 15% off your next order Boll and Branch: Get 20% off plus free shipping by visiting ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BollAndBranch.com/NSE⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ AquaTru: Go to  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠AquaTru.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use promo code NSE Piper and Leaf: Get a 10% off discount to the Advent Calendar by using my code 'NSE' at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠piperandleaf.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Amishi Jha. Is it possible that for half of our waking life, we are not paying attention to what we’re doing? In today’s fast-paced, technology-driven world, many of us are coming to terms with the fact that our capacity for paying attention is laughably weak. Our work, mental health, and relationships suffer because of it. But what if there was a tried-and-true way to change this, something like “push-ups for your brain?” Neuroscientist Amishi Jha has dedicated her career to studying this question, and the results are in. In this episode, she describes the practice of mindfulness meditation - why it can work for everyone (not just the spiritual folks), and how it only takes 12 minutes each day to reach one’s “Peak Mind.” ⁠⁠⁠ Show Notes, Resources and Transcript⁠⁠ for abridged episode with Amishi Jha⁠⁠⁠ Thank you to our sponsors: Ka’Chava: Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://kachava.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use code NSE for 15% off your next order Boll and Branch: Get 20% off plus free shipping by visiting ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BollAndBranch.com/NSE⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ AquaTru: Go to  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠AquaTru.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use promo code NSE Piper and Leaf: Get a 10% off discount to the Advent Calendar by using my code 'NSE' at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠piperandleaf.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

When fear becomes the price of being “informed,” how do we tell the difference between paying attention and being emotionally hijacked? After a trio of viral Threads posts seem to declare that terror is the only appropriate response to our moment, we dig into how social media turns unprocessed fear into a public spectacle, and why outrage and panic are increasingly treated as signs of intelligence or moral seriousness. Drawing on mental health research, media studies, and theology, we ask whether constant distress actually helps us engage the world more faithfully or quietly numbs our capacity for compassion and action. Things we mentioned in this episode: Books + Articles: ⁠We Survived the Night by Julian Brave NoiseCat⁠ ⁠Against the Machine by Paul Kingsnorth⁠ ⁠The Ministry for the Future by Kim Stanley Robinson⁠ ⁠A Short History of Nearly Everything by Bill Bryson⁠ ⁠Night by Elie Wiesel⁠ ⁠A Testament of Devotion by Thomas Kelly⁠ ⁠Media and compassion after digital war: Why digital media haven't transformed responses to human suffering in contemporary conflict by Andrew Hoskins⁠ ⁠We Have Never Been Woke by Musa al-Gharbi⁠ Shows + Movies: ⁠Run Away⁠ on Netflix ⁠Stranger Things⁠ on Netflix ⁠The Prince of Egypt⁠ Songs + Podcasts: ⁠If You Believe by Rachael Lampa (A Walk to Remember Soundtrack)⁠ ⁠Dare You To Move by Switchfoot (A Walk to Remember Soundtrack)⁠ ⁠Musa al-Gharbi interview on No Small Endeavor⁠ ⁠Munther Isaac interview on No Small Endeavor⁠ Follow No Small Endeavor to be notified when Lee's episode with Kim Stanley Robinson drops! Follow The Subtext: ⁠Instagram⁠ | ⁠Threads⁠ | ⁠X⁠ | ⁠YouTube⁠ | ⁠TikTok⁠ Follow Lee: ⁠Instagram⁠ | ⁠Twitter⁠ | ⁠Lee's Newsletter⁠ Follow Savannah: ⁠Instagram⁠ | ⁠Substack⁠ Join our Email List: ⁠nosmallendeavor.com⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Is it possible that for half of our waking life, we are not paying attention to what we’re doing? In today’s fast-paced, technology-driven world, many of us are coming to terms with the fact that our capacity for paying attention is laughably weak. Our work, mental health, and relationships suffer because of it. But what if there was a tried-and-true way to change this, something like “push-ups for your brain?” Neuroscientist Amishi Jha has dedicated her career to studying this question, and the results are in. In this episode, she describes the practice of mindfulness meditation - why it can work for everyone (not just the spiritual folks), and how it only takes 12 minutes each day to reach one’s “Peak Mind.” ⁠⁠⁠⁠ Show Notes, Resources and Transcript⁠⁠ for abridged episode with Amishi Jha⁠⁠⁠⁠ Thank you to our sponsors: Ka’Chava: Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://kachava.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use code NSE for 15% off your next order Boll and Branch: Get 20% off plus free shipping by visiting ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BollAndBranch.com/NSE⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ AquaTru: Go to  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠AquaTru.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use promo code NSE Piper and Leaf: Get a 10% off discount to the Advent Calendar by using my code 'NSE' at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠piperandleaf.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Malcolm Gladwell. What causes suffering in our society? Intentional evil? Or something less apparent and possibly more unsettling—indifference? In this conversation, master storyteller Malcolm Gladwell and host Lee C. Camp explore the moral power of storytelling in light of Gladwell’s latest Revisionist History series, ⁠⁠The Alabama Murders⁠⁠. What begins as a devastating true crime account of a 1988 murder in northwestern Alabama unfolds into something far more unsettling: a decades-long moral failure cascade marked not by villainy alone, but by indifference.  Malcolm corresponded and interviewed Lee for the series to understand the religious and cultural context of the narrative. Together, they examine how stories can awaken our capacity to see, care, and imagine a different world. Key Ideas: How Story Can Awaken Moral Vision Stories do moral work by helping us see what we have learned to accept as normal—and revealing it instead as a distortion. Good Stories Betray Expectations Well Powerful stories disrupt our predictions about the world, forcing us to imagine alternative possibilities for justice and goodness. Take Indifference Seriously Drawing on the insight that “sin is often a failure to bother to care”, Gladwell argues that indifference may be the defining moral danger of modern life. Honor Beauty Without Blindness Truthful storytelling can hold together love for communities and traditions while honestly naming the harm they sometimes produce. Forgiveness Should Have an Action Is forgiveness without action actually forgiveness? ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources and Transcript⁠⁠ for abridged episode with Malcolm Gladwell⁠⁠ Thank you to our sponsors: Ka’Chava: Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://kachava.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use code NSE for 15% off your next order Boll and Branch: Get 20% off plus free shipping by visiting ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BollAndBranch.com/NSE⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ AquaTru: Go to  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠AquaTru.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use promo code NSE Piper and Leaf: Get a 10% off discount to the Advent Calendar by using my code 'NSE' at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠piperandleaf.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What do Stranger Things conspiracy theories, failed prophecies, and religious history have in common? A deep human struggle to face disappointment without rewriting reality. After the finale, many Stranger Things fans convinced themselves a secret ninth episode was hiding in plain sight. In this episode, Lee and Savannah use “Conformity Gate” as a surprisingly rich case study in how humans respond to disappointment and unmet expectations. From the Great Disappointment of 1844 to classic research on cognitive dissonance, we explore why people so often reinterpret failure instead of accepting it. Things we mentioned in this episode: ⁠ When Prophecy Fails by Leon Festinger, Henry W. Riecken, Stanley Schachter⁠ Follow The Subtext: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Threads⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠X⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠TikTok⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Follow Lee: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Twitter⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Lee's Newsletter⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Follow Savannah: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Substack⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Join our Email List: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠nosmallendeavor.com⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What causes suffering in our society? Intentional evil? Or something less apparent and possibly more unsettling—indifference? In this conversation, master storyteller Malcolm Gladwell and host Lee C. Camp explore the moral power of storytelling in light of Gladwell’s latest Revisionist History series, The Alabama Murders. What begins as a devastating true crime account of a 1988 murder in northwestern Alabama unfolds into something far more unsettling: a decades-long moral failure cascade marked not by villainy alone, but by indifference.  Malcolm corresponded and interviewed Lee for the series to understand the religious and cultural context of the narrative. Together, they examine how stories can awaken our capacity to see, care, and imagine a different world. Key Ideas: How Story Can Awaken Moral Vision Stories do moral work by helping us see what we have learned to accept as normal—and revealing it instead as a distortion. Good Stories Betray Expectations Well Powerful stories disrupt our predictions about the world, forcing us to imagine alternative possibilities for justice and goodness. Take Indifference Seriously Drawing on the insight that “sin is often a failure to bother to care”, Gladwell argues that indifference may be the defining moral danger of modern life. Honor Beauty Without Blindness Truthful storytelling can hold together love for communities and traditions while honestly naming the harm they sometimes produce. Forgiveness Should Have an Action Is forgiveness without action actually forgiveness? ⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources and Transcript⁠⁠ for abridged episode with Malcolm Gladwell Thank you to our sponsors: Ka’Chava: Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://kachava.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use code NSE for 15% off your next order Boll and Branch: Get 20% off plus free shipping by visiting ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BollAndBranch.com/NSE⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ AquaTru: Go to  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠AquaTru.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use promo code NSE Piper and Leaf: Get a 10% off discount to the Advent Calendar by using my code 'NSE' at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠piperandleaf.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Carlos Whittaker. Carlos Whittaker was spending the equivalent of 100 full days a year on his phone. You might not be far behind. Carlos—an author and social media influencer who has raised millions for charity online—realized he was scrolling his life away. So he tried something drastic. In his book ⁠Reconnected: How 7 Screen-Free Weeks with Monks and Amish Farmers Helped Me Recover the Lost Art of Being Human⁠, he recounts the experiment that changed everything: seven weeks completely unplugged. The results were startling. According to before-and-after brain scans and cognitive testing from Dr. Daniel Amen, Carlos’ cognitive performance shot from the 50th percentile to the 99th, and his cerebellum showed the equivalent of five years of healing. But the deeper transformation happened in the quiet space that screens had been drowning out. He relearned how to wonder—at a monk’s prompting to “behold,” he climbed a mountain, then later found himself lying on the ground studying a single roly-poly. He picked up life-altering questions from Amish communities about when to embrace or reject new technology. He rediscovered the simple joy of savoring a cup of coffee. If you feel fogged, distracted, or numb from living through a screen, this episode might be the reset you need. Key Ideas How do you decide whether to adopt new technology? The Amish ask one clarifying question: “Will this bring us closer together or drive us further apart?” When was the last time you wondered about anything? With answers always seconds away, we’ve lost the mental and spiritual muscle of curiosity—along with the connection and clarity it creates. Tech isn’t neutral. It’s shaping our brains. After seven screen-free weeks, Carlos’ memory score jumped from the 50th to the 99th percentile, and his cerebellum showed dramatic healing. ⁠⁠ ⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources and Transcript⁠⁠ for abridged episode with Carlos Whittaker⁠ Thank you to our sponsors: Ka’Chava: Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://kachava.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use code NSE for 15% off your next order Boll and Branch: Get 20% off plus free shipping by visiting ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BollAndBranch.com/NSE⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ AquaTru: Go to  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠AquaTru.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use promo code NSE Piper and Leaf: Get a 10% off discount to the Advent Calendar by using my code 'NSE' at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠piperandleaf.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

⁠⁠⁠In the first episode of 2026, we are diving into Wake Up Dead Man: A Knives Out Mystery to explore what it reveals about faith, leadership, hypocrisy, presence, and how competing visions of Christianity shape real people and communities. In this episode of The Subtext, we dive beneath the mystery of Wake Up Dead Man: A Knives Out Mystery to explore what the film exposes about faith, church culture, power, and human nature. Through the contrast of Father Jud’s vision for self-giving love and Monsignor Wicks’ manipulative, rage-driven religiosity, we unpack themes of projection and hypocrisy, insecure versus secure spiritual leadership, and how love shows up through presence. We also read critiques that the film presents two “toothless” versions of Christianity and ask what the story ultimately suggests about God, church, and culture wars. Things we mentioned in this episode: ⁠ The Gospel Coalition "2 Corrupted Christianities in ‘Wake Up Dead Man’"⁠ ⁠ The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse by David Johnson and Jeff VanVonderen⁠ ⁠Holy Hurt: Understanding Spiritual Trauma and the Process of Healing by Hillary L. McBride⁠ Follow The Subtext: ⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠⁠Threads⁠⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠⁠X⁠⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠⁠YouTube⁠⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠⁠TikTok⁠⁠⁠ Follow Lee: ⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠⁠Twitter⁠⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠⁠Lee's Newsletter⁠⁠⁠ Follow Savannah: ⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠⁠Substack⁠⁠⁠ Join our Email List: ⁠⁠⁠nosmallendeavor.com⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Carlos Whittaker was spending the equivalent of 100 full days a year on his phone. You might not be far behind. Carlos—an author and social media influencer who has raised millions for charity online—realized he was scrolling his life away. So he tried something drastic. In his book Reconnected: How 7 Screen-Free Weeks with Monks and Amish Farmers Helped Me Recover the Lost Art of Being Human, he recounts the experiment that changed everything: seven weeks completely unplugged. The results were startling. According to before-and-after brain scans and cognitive testing from Dr. Daniel Amen, Carlos’ cognitive performance shot from the 50th percentile to the 99th, and his cerebellum showed the equivalent of five years of healing. But the deeper transformation happened in the quiet space that screens had been drowning out. He relearned how to wonder—at a monk’s prompting to “behold,” he climbed a mountain, then later found himself lying on the ground studying a single roly-poly. He picked up life-altering questions from Amish communities about when to embrace or reject new technology. He rediscovered the simple joy of savoring a cup of coffee. If you feel fogged, distracted, or numb from living through a screen, this episode might be the reset you need. Key Ideas How do you decide whether to adopt new technology? The Amish ask one clarifying question: “Will this bring us closer together or drive us further apart?” When was the last time you wondered about anything? With answers always seconds away, we’ve lost the mental and spiritual muscle of curiosity—along with the connection and clarity it creates. Tech isn’t neutral. It’s shaping our brains. After seven screen-free weeks, Carlos’ memory score jumped from the 50th to the 99th percentile, and his cerebellum showed dramatic healing. ⁠ ⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources and Transcript⁠⁠ for abridged episode with Carlos Whittaker Thank you to our sponsors: Ka’Chava: Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://kachava.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use code NSE for 15% off your next order Boll and Branch: Get 20% off plus free shipping by visiting ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BollAndBranch.com/NSE⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ AquaTru: Go to  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠AquaTru.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use promo code NSE Piper and Leaf: Get a 10% off discount to the Advent Calendar by using my code 'NSE' at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠piperandleaf.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Charles Duhigg. What if the biggest lever to your happiness isn’t found in your big decisions, but in the small, automatic things you do every day? Pulitzer Prize–winning journalist and bestselling author Charles Duhigg joins Lee C. Camp to explore how habits quietly shape our character, our choices, and our capacity for authentic human flourishing. Drawing on Aristotle, neuroscience, and his book ⁠⁠The Power of Habit⁠⁠, Duhigg unpacks the classic “cue–routine–reward” loop, keystone habits, and why willpower alone so often fails us. He then turns to his book ⁠⁠Supercommunicators⁠⁠ to show how changing the way we speak and listen can transform our relationships, our communities, and our search for meaning and purpose. Key Ideas: Habits shape character: How Aristotle’s vision of virtue and excellence as “what we repeatedly do” connects with modern habit science and the quest for a flourishing, ethical life. The roadmap of habit formation: The habit loop of cue, routine, and reward—and why lasting change comes not from white-knuckled willpower, but from redesigning our cues and rewards to support authentic living and habits for happiness. Keystone habits lead to other better habits: Keystone habits like exercise, making your bed, or food journaling that trigger chain reactions in finances, procrastination, self-control, and our sense of identity and agency. Classifying types of conversations can help you connect: From Supercommunicators: the three kinds of conversations (practical, emotional, social), the “Matching Principle,” and the looping-for-understanding practice that can heal conflict, deepen empathy, and nurture flourishing relationships. Understanding cues for connection: How laughter, curiosity, and deep questions signal “I want to connect with you,” and why Duhigg believes anyone can learn practices of communication that contribute to the common good and true happiness. ⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources and Transcript⁠⁠ for abridged episode with Charles Duhigg⁠⁠ Thank you to our sponsors: Ka’Chava: Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://kachava.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use code NSE for 15% off your next order Boll and Branch: Get 20% off plus free shipping by visiting ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BollAndBranch.com/NSE⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ AquaTru: Go to  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠AquaTru.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use promo code NSE Piper and Leaf: Get a 10% off discount to the Advent Calendar by using my code 'NSE' at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠piperandleaf.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What if the biggest lever to your happiness isn’t found in your big decisions, but in the small, automatic things you do every day? Pulitzer Prize–winning journalist and bestselling author Charles Duhigg joins Lee C. Camp to explore how habits quietly shape our character, our choices, and our capacity for authentic human flourishing. Drawing on Aristotle, neuroscience, and his book The Power of Habit, Duhigg unpacks the classic “cue–routine–reward” loop, keystone habits, and why willpower alone so often fails us. He then turns to his book Supercommunicators to show how changing the way we speak and listen can transform our relationships, our communities, and our search for meaning and purpose. Key Ideas: Habits shape character: How Aristotle’s vision of virtue and excellence as “what we repeatedly do” connects with modern habit science and the quest for a flourishing, ethical life. The roadmap of habit formation: The habit loop of cue, routine, and reward—and why lasting change comes not from white-knuckled willpower, but from redesigning our cues and rewards to support authentic living and habits for happiness. Keystone habits lead to other better habits: Keystone habits like exercise, making your bed, or food journaling that trigger chain reactions in finances, procrastination, self-control, and our sense of identity and agency. You should experiment with your life: The difference between stated and revealed preferences: why we can sincerely want to live with purpose and yet keep acting against our own values—and how gentle “self-experiments” help align our behavior with our deepest commitments. Classifying types of conversations can help you connect: From Supercommunicators: the three kinds of conversations (practical, emotional, social), the “Matching Principle,” and the looping-for-understanding practice that can heal conflict, deepen empathy, and nurture flourishing relationships. Understanding cues for connection: How laughter, curiosity, and deep questions signal “I want to connect with you,” and why Duhigg believes anyone can learn practices of communication that contribute to the common good and true happiness. ⁠ ⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources and Transcript⁠⁠ for abridged episode with Charles Duhigg Thank you to our sponsors: Ka’Chava: Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://kachava.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use code NSE for 15% off your next order Boll and Branch: Get 20% off plus free shipping by visiting ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BollAndBranch.com/NSE⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ AquaTru: Go to  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠AquaTru.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use promo code NSE Piper and Leaf: Get a 10% off discount to the Advent Calendar by using my code 'NSE' at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠piperandleaf.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Nations U: Use code ENDEAVOR50 when you visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠Nationsu.edu/endeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠ CTA: Please donate today at ⁠⁠⁠MercyShips.org/podcast⁠⁠⁠ Omaha Steaks: Visit ⁠⁠⁠OmahaSteaks.com⁠⁠⁠ for 50% off sitewide during their Sizzle All the Way Sale. And for an extra $35 off, use promo code FUN at checkout. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Sharon McMahon. Have you ever wished someone would explain the inner workings of America’s political landscape — without taking sides or fueling the outrage machine?  With over 1.3 million Instagram followers, Sharon McMahon, known affectionately as “America’s Government Teacher,” has spent her career doing exactly that. Drawing from her roots in public education, Sharon rose to prominence on social media during the chaotic 2020 election season. Her clear, fact-based explanations of complex government processes have garnered her a loyal following of self-proclaimed “Governerds,” and today, her teaching reaches millions through her acclaimed podcast, Here's Where It Gets Interesting, her best-selling book The Small and the Mighty, and The Preamble, one of America's most widely-read nonpartisan newsletters. In this thoughtful conversation, Sharon reflects on the transformative power of education, the urgent need for informed civic participation, and the hopeful possibilities that emerge when we approach politics not as partisan warriors but as compassionate, curious learners.  ⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources and Transcript⁠⁠ for abridged episode with Sharon McMahon Thank you to our sponsors: Ka’Chava: Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://kachava.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use code NSE for 15% off your next order Boll and Branch: Get 20% off plus free shipping by visiting ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BollAndBranch.com/NSE⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ AquaTru: Go to  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠AquaTru.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use promo code NSE Piper and Leaf: Get a 10% off discount to the Advent Calendar by using my code 'NSE' at ⁠⁠⁠⁠piperandleaf.com⁠⁠⁠⁠ Nations U: Use code ENDEAVOR50 when you visit ⁠⁠⁠Nationsu.edu/endeavor⁠⁠⁠ CTA: Please donate today at ⁠⁠MercyShips.org/podcast⁠⁠ Omaha Steaks: Visit ⁠⁠OmahaSteaks.com⁠⁠ for 50% off sitewide during their Sizzle All the Way Sale. And for an extra $35 off, use promo code FUN at checkout. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Some moments stay with us long after the episode ends. In this special episode, Lee C. Camp and Jakob Lewis revisit the conversations from 2025 that changed them—clips that still echo with courage, tenderness, and the invitation to live well.  Key Ideas: Focus on What You Can Do. Sharon McMahon reminds us that while none of us can fix everything, each of us can meaningfully contribute to the common good through small, faithful actions. Reclaim Trust in Your Body. Jen Hatmaker’s story shows how healing from spiritual shame begins with listening again to our intuition, our bodies, and the wisdom we were taught to doubt. Let Small Words Change You. Terrence Lester’s life was redirected by a single affirmation from an unhoused stranger—revealing how everyday encounters can spark courage, purpose, and justice. Stay Human in an AI World. Baratunde Thurston and Astro Teller explore how technology invites us to ask what is uniquely human—and why deep community and local practice matter more than big “moonshot” fixes. Rewrite Your Inner Story. Sheryl Crow’s vulnerable reflections show how naming early wounds and dismantling shame can help us live more authentically, with freedom and grounded joy. Tend Your Own Small Garden. In previewing The Subtext, Savannah Locke and Lee C. Camp offer a hopeful vision: in a complex world, flourishing begins with the corner of the world that’s ours to steward. ⁠ ⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources and Transcript⁠⁠ Thank you to our sponsors: Ka’Chava: Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://kachava.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use code NSE for 15% off your next order Boll and Branch: Get 20% off plus free shipping by visiting ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BollAndBranch.com/NSE⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ AquaTru: Go to  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠AquaTru.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use promo code NSE Piper and Leaf: Get a 10% off discount to the Advent Calendar by using my code 'NSE' at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠piperandleaf.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Nations U: Use code ENDEAVOR50 when you visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠Nationsu.edu/endeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠ CTA: Please donate today at ⁠⁠⁠MercyShips.org/podcast⁠⁠⁠ Omaha Steaks: Visit ⁠⁠⁠OmahaSteaks.com⁠⁠⁠ for 50% off sitewide during their Sizzle All the Way Sale. And for an extra $35 off, use promo code FUN at checkout. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Munther Isaac. Imagine you're in charge of pastoring a congregation amidst a war. What does it mean to love your enemies when violence is outside your window, and visceral images of your congregation’s devastation fill your phone? How would you find hope and carry on? Palestinian Lutheran pastor Munther Isaac joins Lee C. Camp from his home in the West Bank to discuss his book Christ in the Rubble: Faith, the Bible, and the Genocide in Gaza. Drawing from his experience shepherding congregations through two years of war, Munther reflects on grief, anger, and the moral danger of becoming numb to suffering, while still insisting on nonviolence, justice, and the stubborn call to love of enemy. This conversation wrestles with the collision of politics and theology, the misuse of religious language, and what authentic human flourishing, meaning, and courage can look like in the midst of rubble. Key Ideas: Christ also asked where God was amidst suffering. Munther insists that, in Gaza’s devastation, God is not distant but present “under the rubble,” with the oppressed, displaced, and grieving. Nonviolence and creative resistance are needed to break cycles of violence. What it means for a Palestinian pastor to reject terrorism and militarism, yet still speak of “creative resistance in the logic of love” as a practice of justice, courage, and meaningful living. Language can be used to warp our imagination. How labels like “terrorism” and “self-defense” can distort moral vision, and why Munther believes reclaiming moral language is essential to the common good and the search for meaning and purpose. To stop loving is to lose our humanity. Munther’s insistence that true happiness and well-being require refusing to dehumanize even one’s enemies. Religious imagination has real-world implications. Theological worldviews often shape policy, war, and public imagination. Munthers asks, what might it mean for theology and culture to serve justice, mercy, and flourishing instead? A warning to our listeners—this episode contains descriptions of violence and graphic imagery. Please listen with care. ⁠⁠ ⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources and Transcript⁠⁠ for Munther Isaac⁠ Thank you to our sponsors: Ka’Chava: Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://kachava.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use code NSE for 15% off your next order Boll and Branch: Get 20% off plus free shipping by visiting ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BollAndBranch.com/NSE⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ AquaTru: Go to  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠AquaTru.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use promo code NSE Piper and Leaf: Get a 10% off discount to the Advent Calendar by using my code 'NSE' at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠piperandleaf.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Nations U: Use code ENDEAVOR50 when you visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Nationsu.edu/endeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ CTA: Please donate today at ⁠⁠⁠⁠MercyShips.org/podcast⁠⁠⁠⁠ Omaha Steaks: Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠OmahaSteaks.com⁠⁠⁠⁠ for 50% off sitewide during their Sizzle All the Way Sale. For an extra $35 off, use promo code FUN at checkout. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Family estrangement is rising, but the cultural story behind it is far more complex than “cutting off toxic people.” In this episode, Savannah and Lee unpack the social, psychological, and technological shifts that quietly reshaped our expectations of family. and why forgiveness, repair, and humility might be the most countercultural practices left. In this episode, Savannah and Lee dig into the cultural forces behind the surge in family estrangement, from postmodern distrust of authority to therapy-speak, safetyism, digital overwhelm, and the luxury of disconnection. Drawing on Rachel Haack’s Substack newsletter, they explore how concept creep, para-connection, and wealth have shaped our expectations of parents, children, and in-laws, and why privilege can make cutting off family easier than repairing them. Together they reflect on the emotional weight, legitimate complexities, and real pain inside estrangement, before ending with a conversation on forgiveness…not as excusing harm, but as a courageous path towards freedom. Things we mentioned in this episode: ⁠⁠Labubu Pendant Blind Box⁠⁠ ⁠⁠James by Percival Everett⁠⁠ ⁠⁠ Why Everyone’s Cutting Everyone Off: The Cultural Story Behind Family Estrangement⁠⁠ ⁠⁠David Schnarch's books⁠⁠ ⁠⁠ That All Shall Be Saved: Heaven, Hell, and Universal Salvation by David Bentley Hart⁠⁠ ⁠⁠The Pastor: A Crisis by Bradley Jersak and Wm. Paul Young⁠⁠ ⁠⁠ Why Concepts Creep to the Left by Jonathan Haidt⁠⁠ Follow The Subtext: ⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠Threads⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠X⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠YouTube⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠TikTok⁠⁠ Follow Lee: ⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠Twitter⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠Lee's Newsletter⁠⁠ Follow Savannah: ⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠Substack⁠⁠ Join our Email List: ⁠⁠nosmallendeavor.com⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Imagine you're in charge of pastoring a congregation amidst a war. What does it mean to love your enemies when violence is outside your window, and visceral images of your congregation’s devastation fill your phone? How would you find hope and carry on? Palestinian Lutheran pastor Munther Isaac joins Lee C. Camp from his home in the West Bank to discuss his book Christ in the Rubble: Faith, the Bible, and the Genocide in Gaza. Drawing from his experience shepherding congregations through two years of war, Munther reflects on grief, anger, and the moral danger of becoming numb to suffering, while still insisting on nonviolence, justice, and the stubborn call to love of enemy. This conversation wrestles with the collision of politics and theology, the misuse of religious language, and what authentic human flourishing, meaning, and courage can look like in the midst of rubble. Key Ideas: Christ also asked where God was amidst suffering. Munther insists that, in Gaza’s devastation, God is not distant but present “under the rubble,” with the oppressed, displaced, and grieving. Nonviolence and creative resistance are needed to break cycles of violence. What it means for a Palestinian pastor to reject terrorism and militarism, yet still speak of “creative resistance in the logic of love” as a practice of justice, courage, and meaningful living. Language can be used to warp our imagination. How labels like “terrorism” and “self-defense” can distort moral vision, and why Munther believes reclaiming moral language is essential to the common good and the search for meaning and purpose. To stop loving is to lose our humanity. Munther’s insistence that true happiness and well-being require refusing to dehumanize even one’s enemies, guarding the heart from numbness, and insisting that we are created to love one another. Religious imagination has real-world implications. Theological worldviews often shape policy, war, and public imagination. Munthers asks, what might it mean for theology and culture to serve justice, mercy, and flourishing instead? A warning to our listeners—this episode contains descriptions of violence and graphic imagery. Please listen with care. ⁠ ⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources and Transcript⁠⁠ for abridged episode with Munther Isaac Thank you to our sponsors: Ka’Chava: Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://kachava.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use code NSE for 15% off your next order Boll and Branch: Get 20% off plus free shipping by visiting ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BollAndBranch.com/NSE⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ AquaTru: Go to  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠AquaTru.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use promo code NSE Piper and Leaf: Get a 10% off discount to the Advent Calendar by using my code 'NSE' at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠piperandleaf.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Nations U: Use code ENDEAVOR50 when you visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠Nationsu.edu/endeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠ CTA: Please donate today at ⁠⁠⁠MercyShips.org/podcast⁠⁠⁠ Omaha Steaks: Visit ⁠⁠⁠OmahaSteaks.com⁠⁠⁠ for 50% off sitewide during their Sizzle All the Way Sale. For an extra $35 off, use promo code FUN at checkout. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Jeff Chu. Change can come in the most unlikely places. For Jeff Chu, he found meaning and purpose in a pile of compost. At the peak of his journalism career — writing for Time and Fast Company, perched 29 floors above Manhattan — Jeff Chu stared out his office window and asked a question he could no longer avoid: “What is this all for?” That moment of vocational and existential reckoning set him on an unexpected journey — one that led to Princeton Theological Seminary, a plot of farmland known as the Farminary, and ultimately, to the compost pile that led him to write his book Good Soil: The Education of an Accidental Farmhand, which we discuss in today’s episode. Key Ideas: The long, honest work of vocational discernment: rage, anxiety, hard conversations with his husband, and the slow dawning realization that questions of calling and authentic living are often answered over years, not days. Life at the Farminary: learning theology with his hands in the dirt, discovering in the compost pile that what looks like waste and failure can, through community and time, become good soil for new life, faith, and hope. The practice of attention and slowing down—walking land after a snowfall, watching purple martins swirl over downtown Nashville, greeting a backyard mulberry tree—as a quiet path into wonder, gratitude, and the psychology of well-being in a distracted age. What gardening teaches about relinquishing control and embracing interdependence: we can plant and tend, but we cannot make a seed grow—an agrarian lens for habit formation, spiritual practices, and surrendering our illusion of power. Jeff’s journey of belonging as a gay Christian and Chinese American—learning to claim his story, honor his ancestors (and his grandmother’s fried rice), trust that he belongs to God, and extend that belonging outward through friendship, hospitality, and communal care. Subscribe, share this episode with a friend, and find more conversations on truth, beauty, goodness, and human flourishing at nosmallendeavor.com. ⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Jeff Chu⁠ Thank you to our sponsors: Ka’Chava: Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://kachava.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use code NSE for 15% off your next order Boll and Branch: Get 20% off plus free shipping by visiting ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BollAndBranch.com/NSE⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ AquaTru: Go to  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠AquaTru.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use promo code NSE Piper and Leaf: Get a 10% off discount to the Advent Calendar by using my code 'NSE' at ⁠⁠⁠piperandleaf.com⁠⁠⁠ Nations U: Use code ENDEAVOR50 when you visit ⁠⁠Nationsu.edu/endeavor⁠⁠ CTA: Please donate today at ⁠MercyShips.org/podcast⁠ Omaha Steaks: Visit ⁠OmahaSteaks.com⁠ for 50% off sitewide during their Sizzle All the Way Sale. And for an extra $35 off, use promo code FUN at checkout. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

AI is reshaping the music industry at a breakneck pace. AI musicians are topping charts, landing record deals, and attracting massive corporate investments. What does this mean for artists? How might this challenge us to think about embodiment, creativity, labor, and what it means to actually be human? When AI musicians start topping the music charts, we’re not just talking about technology. We’re deciding what makes art human, what makes labor fair, and what makes a person irreplaceable. AI musicians are breaking into the charts, labels are investing heavily in machine-generated artistry, and Christians, creators, and consumers are wrestling with what it means to open ourselves (and industries) to something that isn’t human. In this episode, Savannah and Lee unpack the rise of AI “artists” like Solomon Ray and Breaking Rust and ask how AI might transform our view of embodiment, truthfulness, and creativity. Listen to our playlist featuring real, human artists: Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/35w8gz81cYShmsf6T2hshQ?si=t0Ae38obT7q0SSfQfMuo6A Apple Music: https://music.apple.com/us/playlist/the-subtext-recs/pl.u-6mo44y8imzGlYq Things we mentioned in this episode: No Small Endeavor Podcast Recommended Episodes Lee's books Jesse Welles  Hillbilly Hymn by Nathan Evans Fox Savannah's music Follow The Subtext: Instagram | Threads | X | YouTube | TikTok Follow Lee: Instagram | Twitter | Lee's Newsletter Follow Savannah: Instagram | Substack Join our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Change can come in the most unlikely places. For Jeff Chu, he found meaning and purpose in a pile of compost. At the peak of his journalism career — writing for Time and Fast Company, perched 29 floors above Manhattan — Jeff Chu stared out his office window and asked a question he could no longer avoid: “What is this all for?” That moment of vocational and existential reckoning set him on an unexpected journey — one that led to Princeton Theological Seminary, a plot of farmland known as the Farminary, and ultimately, to the compost pile that led him to write his book Good Soil: The Education of an Accidental Farmhand, which we discuss in today’s episode. Key Ideas: How Jeff’s successful journalism career left him asking, “What is work for?” and wondering how to live with more meaning and purpose rather than producing a “luxury product” that might vanish without changing anyone’s life. The long, honest work of vocational discernment: rage, anxiety, hard conversations with his husband, and the slow dawning realization that questions of calling and authentic living are often answered over years, not days. Life at the Farminary: learning theology with his hands in the dirt, discovering in the compost pile that what looks like waste and failure can, through community and time, become good soil for new life, faith, and hope. The practice of attention and slowing down—walking land after a snowfall, watching purple martins swirl over downtown Nashville, greeting a backyard mulberry tree—as a quiet path into wonder, gratitude, and the psychology of well-being in a distracted age. What gardening teaches about relinquishing control and embracing interdependence: we can plant and tend, but we cannot make a seed grow—an agrarian lens for habit formation, spiritual practices, and surrendering our illusion of power. Jeff’s journey of belonging as a gay Christian and Chinese American—learning to claim his story, honor his ancestors (and his grandmother’s fried rice), trust that he belongs to God, and extend that belonging outward through friendship, hospitality, and communal care. Subscribe, share this episode with a friend, and find more conversations on truth, beauty, goodness, and human flourishing at nosmallendeavor.com. ⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Jeff Chu Thank you to our sponsors: Ka’Chava: Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://kachava.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use code NSE for 15% off your next order Boll and Branch: Get 20% off plus free shipping by visiting ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BollAndBranch.com/NSE⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ AquaTru: Go to  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠AquaTru.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use promo code NSE Piper and Leaf: Get a 10% off discount to the Advent Calendar by using my code 'NSE' at ⁠⁠⁠piperandleaf.com⁠⁠⁠ Nations U: Use code ENDEAVOR50 when you visit ⁠⁠Nationsu.edu/endeavor⁠⁠ CTA: Please donate today at ⁠MercyShips.org/podcast⁠ Omaha Steaks: Visit ⁠OmahaSteaks.com⁠ for 50% off sitewide during their Sizzle All the Way Sale. And for an extra $35 off, use promo code FUN at checkout. ⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Hillary McBride. At sixteen, Lee C. Camp drove five miles over the speed limit and was seized by terror. In his mind, if he died breaking the law, he was going to hell. That childhood fear, shaped by a theology steeped in shame and judgment, is the kind of spiritual residue clinical psychologist Hillary McBride sees in her work every day. Clinical psychologist and researcher Hillary McBride joins Lee C. Camp to explore spiritual trauma: how religious ideas, communities, and leaders can wound our deepest sense of self — and how healing becomes possible through embodiment, grief, and honest meaning-making. Drawing from neuroscience, trauma therapy, and her book Holy Hurt: Understanding Spiritual Trauma and the Process of Healing, Hillary helps us name religious gaslighting, purity culture, and fear-based images of God while offering a path toward authentic human flourishing and more compassionate faith. Key Ideas: How Hillary defines trauma as “too much, too fast, too soon” combined with “not enough of what we needed” — and what makes spiritual trauma uniquely complex, especially in high-control religious environments that normalize harm and call it “God’s will.” The dynamics of spiritual gaslighting: when leaders tell you your heart is deceitful, you can’t trust your own experience, and they alone can interpret God for you — often reinforced with images of hell and eternal punishment as tools of control. How trauma fragments our sense of connection — to our bodies, to others, to the earth, and to God — and why embodiment, nervous system awareness, and somatic practices are essential for healing, not just “right beliefs” or spiritual practices that bypass our pain. Why deep therapeutic work is not self-indulgent but a form of love: as we heal perfectionism, shame, and spiritual wounds, we become more able to live with purpose, practice courage and compassion, and participate in the healing of our communities and culture. For more conversations like this, subscribe to No Small Endeavor. ⁠⁠ ⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Hillary McBride⁠ Thank you to our sponsors: Ka’Chava: Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://kachava.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use code NSE for 15% off your next order Boll and Branch: Get 20% off plus free shipping by visiting ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BollAndBranch.com/NSE⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ AquaTru: Go to  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠AquaTru.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use promo code NSE Piper and Leaf: Get a 10% off discount to the Advent Calendar by using my code 'NSE' at ⁠⁠⁠piperandleaf.com⁠⁠⁠ Nations U: Use code ENDEAVOR50 when you visit ⁠⁠Nationsu.edu/endeavor⁠⁠ CTA: Please donate today at ⁠MercyShips.org/podcast⁠ Omaha Steaks: Visit ⁠OmahaSteaks.com⁠ for 50% off sitewide during their Sizzle All the Way Sale. And for an extra $35 off, use promo code FUN at checkout. ⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What if the real magic of Wicked isn’t the spells, but the way friendship, shame, and belonging shape who we become? In this episode, Savannah and Lee dive into the deeper themes of Wicked: For Good, from dreams that come true but don’t satisfy, to the power of propaganda, to the power of shame with an in-group/out-group mentality. They also unpack Glinda and Elphaba’s friendship: how Elphaba gives Glinda moral courage and authenticity, and how Glinda gives Elphaba trust, confidence, and a place to be known without performing. Things we mentioned in this episode: Did the Old Testament Endorse Slavery? by Dr. Joshua Bowen Dan Gilbert: The surprising science of happiness The Happiness Project by Gretchen Rubin 1984 by George Orwell Animal Farm by George Orwell The Tears of Things by Richard Rohr That All Shall Be Saved by David Bentley Hart The New Testament: A Translation David Bentley Hart Follow The Subtext: Instagram | Threads | X | YouTube | TikTok Follow Lee: Instagram | Twitter | Lee's Newsletter Follow Savannah: Instagram | Substack Join our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

At sixteen, Lee C. Camp drove five miles over the speed limit and was seized by terror. In his mind, if he died breaking the law, he was going to hell. That childhood fear, shaped by a theology steeped in shame and judgment, is the kind of spiritual residue clinical psychologist Hillary McBride sees in her work every day. Clinical psychologist and researcher Hillary McBride joins Lee C. Camp to explore spiritual trauma: how religious ideas, communities, and leaders can wound our deepest sense of self — and how healing becomes possible through embodiment, grief, and honest meaning-making. Drawing from neuroscience, trauma therapy, and her book Holy Hurt: Understanding Spiritual Trauma and the Process of Healing, Hillary helps us name religious gaslighting, purity culture, and fear-based images of God while offering a path toward authentic human flourishing and more compassionate faith. Key Ideas: How Hillary defines trauma as “too much, too fast, too soon” combined with “not enough of what we needed” — and what makes spiritual trauma uniquely complex, especially in high-control religious environments that normalize harm and call it “God’s will.” The dynamics of spiritual gaslighting: when leaders tell you your heart is deceitful, you can’t trust your own experience, and they alone can interpret God for you — often reinforced with images of hell and eternal punishment as tools of control. How trauma fragments our sense of connection — to our bodies, to others, to the earth, and to God — and why embodiment, nervous system awareness, and somatic practices are essential for healing, not just “right beliefs” or spiritual practices that bypass our pain. Why deep therapeutic work is not self-indulgent but a form of love: as we heal perfectionism, shame, and spiritual wounds, we become more able to live with purpose, practice courage and compassion, and participate in the healing of our communities and culture. For more conversations like this, subscribe to No Small Endeavor. ⁠ ⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Hillary McBride Thank you to our sponsors: Ka’Chava: Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://kachava.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use code NSE for 15% off your next order Boll and Branch: Get 20% off plus free shipping by visiting ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BollAndBranch.com/NSE⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ AquaTru: Go to  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠AquaTru.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use promo code NSE Piper and Leaf: Get a 10% off discount to the Advent Calendar by using my code 'NSE' at ⁠⁠⁠piperandleaf.com⁠⁠⁠ Nations U: Use code ENDEAVOR50 when you visit ⁠⁠Nationsu.edu/endeavor⁠⁠ CTA: Please donate today at ⁠MercyShips.org/podcast⁠ Omaha Steaks: Visit ⁠OmahaSteaks.com⁠ for 50% off sitewide during their Sizzle All the Way Sale. And for an extra $35 off, use promo code FUN at checkout. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Tara Brach. How do you accept yourself fully, just as you are? And if you did, would you ever grow? “Being at peace with how we are in the moment is the precondition to transformation,” says psychologist and meditation teacher Tara Brach. In this episode she provides us with a simple practice to find peace and transformation known by the acronym RAIN. “We have amazing potential to change some of the habits that cause ourselves or others harm,” she says, “but we won't be able to access that if we're at war with ourselves.” Hear Tara’s stories from a life of practicing mindfulness, putting on display the wisdom and healing that come from pausing to accept the world as it is. This episode contains a brief mention of disordered eating. If you are in need of support, contact the National Alliance for Eating Disorders at 1-866-662-1235 ⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Tara Brach Thank you to our sponsors: Ka’Chava: Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://kachava.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use code NSE for 15% off your next order Boll and Branch: Get 20% off plus free shipping by visiting ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BollAndBranch.com/NSE⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ AquaTru: Go to  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠AquaTru.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use promo code NSE Piper and Leaf: Get a 10% off discount to the Advent Calendar by using my code 'NSE' at ⁠⁠piperandleaf.com⁠⁠ Nations U: Use code ENDEAVOR50 when you visit ⁠Nationsu.edu/endeavor⁠ ⁠ Join NSE+ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow @nosmallendeavor  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow @leeccamp  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

When the headlines numb and the culture wars grind us down, what if hope isn’t a mood at all—but a practice you can do with your body, your friends, and your city? In this holiday special, Lee revisits four conversations to find practices of hope: meditation teacher Tara Brach on healing the “trance of unworthiness,” songwriter Tom Paxton on the folk community that fueled social change, marine biologist Ayana Elizabeth Johnson on climate imagination, and educator Sharon McMahon on everyday civic action. Together they offer three grounded practices—for self, for community, and for the common good—that help us act toward a more beautiful future. Practice 1—Self: Tara Brach’s “two wings” of mindfulness and compassion help us befriend reality and begin change from within (“What is happening inside me right now? … Can I be with this?”). Practice 2—Community: Tom Paxton’s Greenwich Village years show how laughter, critique, and shared craft create courage—and movements. Make something together offline and let belonging fuel hope. Practice 3—Civic: Ayana Elizabeth Johnson invites a shift from apocalypse to imagination—joining others to scale solutions we already have; Sharon McMahon reminds us everyone can do something. Start local and “join something.” Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged holiday special with Tara Brach, Tom Paxton, Ayana Elizabeth Johnson, and Sharon McMahon Thank you to our sponsors: Ka’Chava: Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://kachava.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use code NSE for 15% off your next order Boll and Branch: Get 20% off plus free shipping by visiting ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BollAndBranch.com/NSE⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ AquaTru: Go to  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠AquaTru.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use promo code NSE Piper and Leaf: Get a 10% off discount to the Advent Calendar by using my code 'NSE' at ⁠⁠piperandleaf.com⁠⁠ Nations U: Use code ENDEAVOR50 when you visit ⁠Nationsu.edu/endeavor⁠ ⁠Join NSE+⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠@leeccamp ⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Lara Love Hardin. What if the opposite of addiction isn’t sobriety—but connection? How does a woman go from 32 felony charges to the New York Times bestseller list, lunches with Oprah, and a life devoted to healing?Lara Love Hardin—literary agent, author, and prison-reform advocate—recounts her descent into opioid and heroin addiction, the shame that followed, and the community that made restoration possible. She traces the path from a Santa Cruz jail to acclaimed collaborations with figures like Desmond Tutu and the Dalai Lama, and to her own bestselling memoir, ⁠The Many Lives of Mama Love⁠. Listeners will hear how practices of community, meditation, and honest storytelling can transform compulsion into connection and purpose. Key Ideas: “The opposite of addiction isn’t sobriety, it’s connection”—why isolation fuels compulsion and how community begins to heal it. Shame’s long shadow: from the “neighbor from hell” headline to reclaiming dignity—and why public humiliation rarely rehabilitates. Skills for staying: meditation, naming emotions, and building a circle you can be messy with. Rat Park revisited: an experiment with morphine and rats, why context and community change outcomes From ghostwriter to guide: what Lara learned about forgiveness (and self-forgiveness) working with Archbishop Tutu and meeting the Dalai Lama. ⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Lara Love Hardin Thank you to our sponsors: Ka’Chava: Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://kachava.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use code NSE for 15% off your next order Boll and Branch: Get 20% off plus free shipping by visiting ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BollAndBranch.com/NSE⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ AquaTru: Go to  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠AquaTru.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use promo code NSE Piper and Leaf: Get a 10% off discount to the Advent Calendar by using my code 'NSE' at ⁠⁠piperandleaf.com⁠⁠ Nations U: Use code ENDEAVOR50 when you visit ⁠Nationsu.edu/endeavor⁠ Tickets to Nov 23rd NSE Live in Nashville: ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.nashvillesymphony.org/nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠ ⁠Join NSE+⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠@leeccamp ⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In this episode, Savannah rounds up several posts her algorithm served her this week: an influencer from The Bachelor warning Christians not to watch Love Island, a pastor speaking about slavery in the Bible, Billie Eilish calling out billionaires, and a thread about SNAP benefits. Plus, a little conspiracy chat to close things out, courtesy of Kim Kardashian and the moon landing. Things we mentioned in this episode: James by Percival Everett  Courage to be Disliked by Fumitake Koga and Ichiro Kishimi The New Testament and the People of God by NT Wright Truth Is Stranger Than It Used to Be by J. Richard Middleton and Brian J. Walsh The Bible Is Not Enough by Scot McKnight Poverty, by America by Matthew Desmond Follow The Subtext: Instagram | Threads | X | YouTube | TikTok Follow Lee: Instagram | Twitter | Lee's Newsletter Follow Savannah: Instagram | Substack Join our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What if the opposite of addiction isn’t sobriety—but connection? How does a woman go from 32 felony charges to the New York Times bestseller list, lunches with Oprah, and a life devoted to healing?Lara Love Hardin—literary agent, author, and prison-reform advocate—recounts her descent into opioid and heroin addiction, the shame that followed, and the community that made restoration possible. She traces the path from a Santa Cruz jail to acclaimed collaborations with figures like Desmond Tutu and the Dalai Lama, and to her own bestselling memoir, The Many Lives of Mama Love. Listeners will hear how practices of community, meditation, and honest storytelling can transform compulsion into connection and purpose. Key Ideas: “The opposite of addiction isn’t sobriety, it’s connection”—why isolation fuels compulsion and how community begins to heal it. Shame’s long shadow: from the “neighbor from hell” headline to reclaiming dignity—and why public humiliation rarely rehabilitates. Skills for staying: meditation, naming emotions, and building a circle you can be messy with. Rat Park revisited: an experiment with morphine and rats, why context and community change outcomes From ghostwriter to guide: what Lara learned about forgiveness (and self-forgiveness) working with Archbishop Tutu and meeting the Dalai Lama. ⁠ ⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Lara Love Hardin⁠ Thank you to our sponsors: Ka’Chava: Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://kachava.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use code NSE for 15% off your next order Boll and Branch: Get 20% off plus free shipping by visiting ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BollAndBranch.com/NSE⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ AquaTru: Go to  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠AquaTru.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use promo code NSE Piper and Leaf: Get a 10% off discount to the Advent Calendar by using my code 'NSE' at ⁠⁠piperandleaf.com⁠⁠ Nations U: Use code ENDEAVOR50 when you visit ⁠Nationsu.edu/endeavor⁠ Tickets to Nov 23rd NSE Live in Nashville: ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.nashvillesymphony.org/nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠ ⁠Join NSE+⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠@leeccamp ⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Rick Steves. When Rick Steves was 14 years old, he stood in a park behind the Royal Palace in Oslo, watching families dot the grass in joyful togetherness. That was the moment. A dawning awareness that love — deep, sacrificial, attentive love — was not unique to his own family, but radiated across the globe. “This world is filled,” he remembers realizing, “with equally lovable little kids like me. Little children of God.” It was a quiet, early epiphany — but it would shape a life. Today, Rick Steves is a household name. But before the bestselling travel guides and beloved PBS shows, before the advocacy work and global partnerships, there was a deeply formative journey: the 1978 “Hippie Trail” from Istanbul to Kathmandu. In this conversation with Lee C. Camp, Steves opens up about the raw diary he kept on that trip — a travel journal long forgotten, then rediscovered during COVID — and how that coming-of-age adventure sparked a lifelong vocation in travel education. But this episode is more than a story about travel. It’s a meditation on what thoughtful travel can become: a political act, a spiritual practice, a tool for personal growth, a way of learning how to love our neighbors — whether they live across the street or across the sea. Rick Steves and Lee discuss how serendipity reveals virtue, how privilege demands stewardship, and why phrases like “have a safe trip” can be far less benign than we think. Rick Steves insists that the best kind of travel complicates our assumptions and broadens our perspective — and that we are, all of us, global citizens. This is a conversation about habit formation, global empathy, and the practices that help us live a good life. ⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Rick Steves⁠ Thank you to our sponsors: Ka’Chava: Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://kachava.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use code NSE for 15% off your next order Boll and Branch: Get 20% off plus free shipping by visiting ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BollAndBranch.com/NSE⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ AquaTru: Go to  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠AquaTru.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use promo code NSE Piper and Leaf: Get a 10% off discount to the Advent Calendar by using my code 'NSE' at ⁠⁠piperandleaf.com⁠⁠ Nations U: Use code ENDEAVOR50 when you visit ⁠Nationsu.edu/endeavor⁠ Tickets to Nov 23rd NSE Live in Nashville: ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.nashvillesymphony.org/nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠ ⁠Join NSE+⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠@leeccamp ⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In this episode, Savannah and Lee dive into the Netflix series Nobody Wants This, a smart and surprisingly tender rom-com about an agnostic podcaster (Kristen Bell) and a rabbi (Adam Brody) trying to make love work across lines of faith and conviction. The conversation unfolds into bigger questions: How do we love people whose choices we disagree with? When does compromise in a relationship become self-betrayal? Can married people be friends with people of the opposite sex? And what does it mean to convert to a different religion? Things we mentioned in this episode: The Chosen by Chaim Potok My Name Is Asher Lev by Chaim Potok Rainn Wilson on No Small Endeavor Soul Boom by Rainn Wilson Silence by Shusaku Endo Follow The Subtext: Instagram | Threads | X | YouTube | TikTok Follow Lee: Instagram | Twitter | Lee's Newsletter Follow Savannah: Instagram | Substack Join our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

When Rick Steves was 14 years old, he stood in a park behind the Royal Palace in Oslo, watching families dot the grass in joyful togetherness. That was the moment. A dawning awareness that love — deep, sacrificial, attentive love — was not unique to his own family, but radiated across the globe. “This world is filled,” he remembers realizing, “with equally lovable little kids like me. Little children of God.” It was a quiet, early epiphany — but it would shape a life. Today, Rick Steves is a household name. But before the bestselling travel guides and beloved PBS shows, before the advocacy work and global partnerships, there was a deeply formative journey: the 1978 “Hippie Trail” from Istanbul to Kathmandu. In this conversation with Lee C. Camp, Steves opens up about the raw diary he kept on that trip — a travel journal long forgotten, then rediscovered during COVID — and how that coming-of-age adventure sparked a lifelong vocation in travel education. But this episode is more than a story about travel. It’s a meditation on what thoughtful travel can become: a political act, a spiritual practice, a tool for personal growth, a way of learning how to love our neighbors — whether they live across the street or across the sea. Rick Steves and Lee discuss how serendipity reveals virtue, how privilege demands stewardship, and why phrases like “have a safe trip” can be far less benign than we think. Rick Steves insists that the best kind of travel complicates our assumptions and broadens our perspective — and that we are, all of us, global citizens. This is a conversation about habit formation, global empathy, and the practices that help us live a good life. Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Rick Steves Thank you to our sponsors: Ka’Chava: Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://kachava.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use code NSE for 15% off your next order Boll and Branch: Get 20% off plus free shipping by visiting ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BollAndBranch.com/NSE⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ AquaTru: Go to  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠AquaTru.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use promo code NSE Piper and Leaf: Get a 10% off discount to the Advent Calendar by using my code 'NSE' at ⁠⁠piperandleaf.com⁠⁠ Nations U: Use code ENDEAVOR50 when you visit ⁠Nationsu.edu/endeavor⁠ Tickets to Nov 23rd NSE Live in Nashville: ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.nashvillesymphony.org/nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠ ⁠Join NSE+⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠@leeccamp ⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Pádraig Ó Tuama. Pádraig Ó Tuama joins us for part three of a three-part series asking the question posed by poet Christian Wiman: What is poetry’s role when the world is burning? It’s not a metaphorical question. We’re living through wars, climate collapse, collective burnout, and political fragmentation. What possibly might human flourishing mean in such a context? And what might poetry have to do with it?  Here Pádraig Ó Tuama--poet, theologian, and peacemaker--returns to No Small Endeavor for an expansive, searching conversation about words, wounds, witness, and wisdom. Former leader of Ireland’s Corrymeela peace and reconciliation community and host of Poetry Unbound, Ó Tuama draws from a deep well of personal and communal experience—where poetry is not just a literary act but a practice of survival, accountability, and attention. Pádraig Ó Tuama reflects on growing up Catholic and gay in 1980s Ireland, and the complex legacy of faith, repression, and language he inherited—narratives that led him through years of exorcism and reparative “therapies.” With honesty and grace, he shares how poetry helped him reclaim agency and reframe pain, offering listeners a poignant example of how the “art of noticing” becomes a form of resistance and self-development. He reads moving excerpts from his recent collection Kitchen Hymns, including poems on belief, disillusionment, and friendship—each one an invitation to live more humanely and attentively. Lee and Pádraig also delve into the mechanics of peacebuilding, the failures and contradictions within justice work, and how poetic language can uncover what politics often obscures. This episode is as much about being human as it is about art and theology: a tender meditation on how we live with purpose, create for the common good, and show up in the world with courage and compassion. ⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for our episode with Pádraig Ó Tuama ⁠ Thank you to our sponsors: Ka’Chava: Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://kachava.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use code NSE for 15% off your next order Boll and Branch: Get 20% off plus free shipping by visiting ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BollAndBranch.com/NSE⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ AquaTru: Go to  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠AquaTru.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use promo code NSE Piper and Leaf: Get a 10% off discount to the Advent Calendar by using my code 'NSE' at ⁠⁠piperandleaf.com⁠⁠ Nations U: Use code ENDEAVOR50 when you visit ⁠Nationsu.edu/endeavor⁠ Tickets to Nov 23rd NSE Live in Nashville: ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.nashvillesymphony.org/nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠ ⁠Join NSE+⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠@leeccamp ⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

When Turning Point USA launches an “All-American Halftime Show” to rival Bad Bunny’s Super Bowl performance, it’s more than a musical critique, it’s a signal of a culture war. In this episode, Savannah and Lee unpack why something as ordinary as a halftime show can feel like a referendum on faith, family, and freedom. From the backlash that followed Reconstruction to Reagan’s alliance with the religious right, to today’s debates over gender, race, and education, the culture wars have always been about who stays in power. How can we interact with culture wars better? How should we treat “hot topic” issues? Things we mentioned in this episode: Revisionist History: The Alabama Murders The Sun Does Shine by Anthony Ray Hinton James by Percival Everett All the Way to the River by Elizabeth Gilbert Awake by Jen Hatmaker The Courage to be Disliked by Fumitake Koga and Ichiro Kishimi The Many Lives of Mama Love by Lara Love Hardin Bad Faith by Randall Balmer Mere Discipleship by Lee C. Camp All the Buried Women podcast Ed Larson on No Small Endeavor Randall Balmer on No Small Endeavor Garrett Graff on No Small Endeavor Follow The Subtext: Instagram | Threads | X | YouTube | TikTok Follow Lee: Instagram | Twitter | Lee's Newsletter Follow Savannah: Instagram | Substack Join our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Pádraig Ó Tuama joins us for part three of a three-part series asking the question posed by poet Christian Wiman: What is poetry’s role when the world is burning? It’s not a metaphorical question. We’re living through wars, climate collapse, collective burnout, and political fragmentation. What possibly might human flourishing mean in such a context? And what might poetry have to do with it?  Here Pádraig Ó Tuama--poet, theologian, and peacemaker--returns to No Small Endeavor for an expansive, searching conversation about words, wounds, witness, and wisdom. Former leader of Ireland’s Corrymeela peace and reconciliation community and host of Poetry Unbound, Ó Tuama draws from a deep well of personal and communal experience—where poetry is not just a literary act but a practice of survival, accountability, and attention. Pádraig Ó Tuama reflects on growing up Catholic and gay in 1980s Ireland, and the complex legacy of faith, repression, and language he inherited—narratives that led him through years of exorcism and reparative “therapies.” With honesty and grace, he shares how poetry helped him reclaim agency and reframe pain, offering listeners a poignant example of how the “art of noticing” becomes a form of resistance and self-development. He reads moving excerpts from his recent collection Kitchen Hymns, including poems on belief, disillusionment, and friendship—each one an invitation to live more humanely and attentively. Lee and Pádraig also delve into the mechanics of peacebuilding, the failures and contradictions within justice work, and how poetic language can uncover what politics often obscures. This episode is as much about being human as it is about art and theology: a tender meditation on how we live with purpose, create for the common good, and show up in the world with courage and compassion. ⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for our episode with Pádraig Ó Tuama  Thank you to our sponsors: Ka’Chava: Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://kachava.com⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use code NSE for 15% off your next order Boll and Branch: Get 20% off plus free shipping by visiting ⁠⁠⁠⁠BollAndBranch.com/NSE⁠⁠⁠⁠ AquaTru: Go to  ⁠⁠⁠⁠AquaTru.com⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use promo code NSE Piper and Leaf: Get a 10% off discount to the Advent Calendar by using my code 'NSE' at ⁠piperandleaf.com⁠ Nations U: Use code ENDEAVOR50 when you visit Nationsu.edu/endeavor Tickets to Nov 23rd NSE Live in Nashville: ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.nashvillesymphony.org/nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠ ⁠Join NSE+⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠@leeccamp ⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Haleh Liza Gafori. Haleh Liza Gafori joins us for part two of a three-part series asking the question posed by poet Christian Wiman: What is poetry’s role when the world is burning? It’s not a metaphorical question. We’re living through wars, climate collapse, collective burnout, and political fragmentation. What possibly might human flourishing mean in such a context? And what might poetry have to do with it?  Here, Haleh Liza Gafori—poet, musician, and translator—guides us into the world of the Sufi poet Rumi. We explore how his 13th-century Persian verse still speaks to the modern crises of anxiety, spiritual disconnection, materialism, and self-repression. But this isn’t just about literary history. For Gafori, Rumi has been a companion in healing, a guide through spiritual trauma, ego detachment, and the tyranny of the self. We discuss poetry as a political act, a mystical practice, and a form of social critique. We look at how Iranian-American identity, religious fundamentalism, and Western imperialism shape the psyche—and how mystical poetry can help us see through, and beyond, these entanglements. We ask what it means to live a good life when the systems around us are built on fear and greed—and what role language, art, theology and ecstatic love can play in imagining something different. Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ of our abridged episode with Haleh Liza Gafori on her translation of Rumi⁠⁠⁠ Thank you to our sponsors: Ka’Chava: Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://kachava.com⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use code NSE for 15% off your next order Boll and Branch: Get 20% off plus free shipping by visiting ⁠⁠⁠⁠BollAndBranch.com/NSE⁠⁠⁠⁠ AquaTru: Go to  ⁠⁠⁠⁠AquaTru.com⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use promo code NSE Piper and Leaf: Get a 10% off discount to the Advent Calendar by using my code 'NSE' at ⁠piperandleaf.com⁠ Tickets to Nov 23rd NSE Live in Nashville: ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.nashvillesymphony.org/nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠ ⁠Join NSE+⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠@leeccamp ⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

When the “Liver King” built an empire on raw meat, steroids, and slogans about being “a real man,” what if he wasn’t selling a message based on muscles but mortality? In this episode, Savannah and Lee dig into how the fear of death shapes our obsession with control, strength, and self-sufficiency. Drawing from Untold: The Liver King, Scott Galloway’s research on the masculinity crisis, and Richard Beck’s The Slavery of Death, they trace a cultural thread that might tell us something about how we handle one of the rare, universal experiences: death. Things we mentioned in this episode: ⁠ Reviving Old Scratch by Richard Beck⁠ ⁠ The Slavery of Death by Richard Beck⁠ ⁠ The Many Lives of Mama Love by Lara Love Hardin⁠ ⁠ Scott Galloway on Armchair Expert⁠ ⁠ The Smoke Gets in Your Eyes by Caitlin Doughty⁠ Follow The Subtext: ⁠Instagram⁠ | ⁠Threads⁠ | ⁠X⁠ | ⁠YouTube⁠ | ⁠TikTok⁠ Follow Lee: ⁠Instagram⁠ | ⁠Twitter⁠ | ⁠Lee's Newsletter⁠ Follow Savannah: ⁠Instagram⁠ | ⁠Substack⁠ Join our Email List: ⁠nosmallendeavor.com⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Haleh Liza Gafori joins us for part two of a three-part series asking the question posed by poet Christian Wiman: What is poetry’s role when the world is burning? It’s not a metaphorical question. We’re living through wars, climate collapse, collective burnout, and political fragmentation. What possibly might human flourishing mean in such a context? And what might poetry have to do with it?  Here, Haleh Liza Gafori—poet, musician, and translator—guides us into the world of the Sufi poet Rumi. We explore how his 13th-century Persian verse still speaks to the modern crises of anxiety, spiritual disconnection, materialism, and self-repression. But this isn’t just about literary history. For Gafori, Rumi has been a companion in healing, a guide through spiritual trauma, ego detachment, and the tyranny of the self. We discuss poetry as a political act, a mystical practice, and a form of social critique. We look at how Iranian-American identity, religious fundamentalism, and Western imperialism shape the psyche—and how mystical poetry can help us see through, and beyond, these entanglements. We ask what it means to live a good life when the systems around us are built on fear and greed—and what role language, art, theology and ecstatic love can play in imagining something different. Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ of our abridged episode with Haleh Liza Gafori on her translation of Rumi⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Thank you to our sponsors: Ka’Chava: Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://kachava.com⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use code NSE for 15% off your next order Boll and Branch: Get 20% off plus free shipping by visiting ⁠⁠⁠⁠BollAndBranch.com/NSE⁠⁠⁠⁠ AquaTru: Go to  ⁠⁠⁠⁠AquaTru.com⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use promo code NSE Piper and Leaf: Get a 10% off discount to the Advent Calendar by using my code 'NSE' at ⁠piperandleaf.com⁠ Tickets to Nov 23rd NSE Live in Nashville: ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.nashvillesymphony.org/nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠ ⁠Join NSE+⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠@leeccamp ⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Joy Harjo joins us for part one of a three-part series asking the question posed by poet Christian Wiman: What is poetry’s role when the world is burning? It’s not a metaphorical question. We’re living through wars, climate collapse, collective burnout, and political fragmentation. What possibly might human flourishing mean in such a context? And what might poetry have to do with it?  Here, three‑term U.S. Poet Laureate Joy Harjo (Muskogee Creek Nation) shares how her poetry emerges from pain, memory, and fierce hope. She reflects on the loss and colonization embedded in her own family story—from the Trail of Tears to the extraction of resources from her tribal lands—and how those historical wounds still pulse in our shared present. Harjo also traces her coming‑of‑age: learning to find voice through art and activism, encountering the power and beauty of Native elders and poets, recognizing the injustice hidden in history textbooks, and experiencing the healing that comes through being seen and witnessed in kindness. Amidst crises of war, climate, racial injustice, and spiritual dislocation, she argues that poetry is not luxury or escape—it is ritual, ceremony, language of the sacred, a way to speak to the soul and open space for listening and transformation. Her upcoming book Girl Warrior: On Coming of Age becomes a touchstone in this conversation—one that unearths the raw edges of adolescence, grief, identity, heritage, and hope. This episode invites you to reckon with legacy, cultivate courage, and consider how poetry and voice are vital to living with purpose, meaning, and belonging. ⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for our episode with Joy Harjo⁠ Thank you to our sponsors: Ka’Chava: Go to ⁠⁠⁠https://kachava.com⁠⁠⁠ and use code NSE for 15% off your next order Boll and Branch: Get 20% off plus free shipping by visiting ⁠⁠⁠BollAndBranch.com/NSE⁠⁠⁠ AquaTru: Go to  ⁠⁠⁠AquaTru.com⁠⁠⁠ and use promo code NSE Piper and Leaf: Get a 10% off discount to the Advent Calendar by using my code 'NSE' at piperandleaf.com Tickets to Nov 23rd NSE Live in Nashville: ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.nashvillesymphony.org/nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠ ⁠Join NSE+⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠@leeccamp ⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In this episode, Savannah and Lee celebrate the 25th anniversary of Gilmore Girls and use Melissa McCarthy’s viral story about Yanic Truesdale’s “fake” French accent as a springboard to talk about authenticity, faith, and what we’ve been trained to hear as “real.” From Luke’s Diner to the Sermon on the Mount, this episode asks: how do we tell the difference between the real thing and a good imitation…and would we even recognize Jesus’s accent if we heard it today? Follow The Subtext: Instagram | Threads | X | YouTube | TikTok Follow Lee: Instagram | Twitter | Lee's Newsletter Follow Savannah: Instagram | Substack Join our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Joy Harjo joins us for part one of a three-part series asking the question posed by poet Christian Wiman: What is poetry’s role when the world is burning? It’s not a metaphorical question. We’re living through wars, climate collapse, collective burnout, and political fragmentation. What possibly might human flourishing mean in such a context? And what might poetry have to do with it?  Here, three‑term U.S. Poet Laureate Joy Harjo (Muskogee Creek Nation) shares how her poetry emerges from pain, memory, and fierce hope. She reflects on the loss and colonization embedded in her own family story—from the Trail of Tears to the extraction of resources from her tribal lands—and how those historical wounds still pulse in our shared present. Harjo also traces her coming‑of‑age: learning to find voice through art and activism, encountering the power and beauty of Native elders and poets, recognizing the injustice hidden in history textbooks, and experiencing the healing that comes through being seen and witnessed in kindness. Amidst crises of war, climate, racial injustice, and spiritual dislocation, she argues that poetry is not luxury or escape—it is ritual, ceremony, language of the sacred, a way to speak to the soul and open space for listening and transformation. Her upcoming book Girl Warrior: On Coming of Age becomes a touchstone in this conversation—one that unearths the raw edges of adolescence, grief, identity, heritage, and hope. This episode invites you to reckon with legacy, cultivate courage, and consider how poetry and voice are vital to living with purpose, meaning, and belonging. ⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for our episode with Joy Harjo⁠ Thank you to our sponsors: Ka’Chava: Go to ⁠⁠https://kachava.com⁠⁠ and use code NSE for 15% off your next order Boll and Branch: Get 20% off plus free shipping by visiting ⁠⁠BollAndBranch.com/NSE⁠⁠ AquaTru: Go to  ⁠⁠AquaTru.com⁠⁠ and use promo code NSE Tickets to Nov 23rd NSE Live in Nashville: ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.nashvillesymphony.org/nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠ ⁠Join NSE+⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠@leeccamp ⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Garrett Graff. What can it possibly mean to flourish in our tech saturated world? In the early 2000s, the internet felt like a civic miracle in the making, with profound possibilities for human flourishing and civic progress. Facebook gave voice to protestors in Egypt’s Tahrir Square. Twitter helped bring down dictators. The web seemed poised to enhance democracy, amplify transparency, and connect us more deeply. But then the tide turned. This episode features Garrett Graff, historian, journalist, and host of the award-winning podcast Long Shadow: Breaking the Internet. In this sobering conversation, Graff joins Lee to unpack how a platform born of hope became a tool for outrage, surveillance, and even genocide. Drawing on more than three decades of digital history, Graff traces how tech's shift from user-driven exploration to algorithmic manipulation created not just a loss of innocence—but a structural system designed to enrage. We hear the story of the Arab Spring, where connectivity spurred revolution, only to become a mechanism of authoritarian control. We examine Myanmar, where unchecked hate speech on Facebook helped fuel mass atrocities. And we explore a haunting question: What kind of people are we becoming through our use of these technologies? Along the way, Graff reflects on his own tech optimism, the moral responsibility of tech executives, and why understanding internet history is a civic—not academic—duty. He and Lee also examine whether AI is already repeating these same mistakes. If you’ve ever asked how the internet became what it is today—or what role we each play in its future—this episode offers both clarity and a call to courage. Garrett Graff’s insights offer one of the most thoughtful takes yet on the digital age’s moral and social consequences. Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Garrett Graff. Thank you to our sponsors: Ka’Chava: Go to ⁠⁠https://kachava.com⁠⁠ and use code NSE for 15% off your next order Boll and Branch: Get 20% off plus free shipping by visiting ⁠⁠BollAndBranch.com/NSE⁠⁠ AquaTru: Go to  ⁠⁠AquaTru.com⁠⁠ and use promo code NSE Tickets to Nov 23rd NSE Live in Nashville: ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.nashvillesymphony.org/nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠ ⁠Join NSE+⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠@leeccamp ⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

When a Christian influencer warns moms that Taylor Swift will lead their daughters astray, the conversation has moved beyond pop music and into culture. In this episode, Savannah and Lee trace how the church has wrestled with cultural artifacts, including Niebuhr’s Christ and Culture, and what frameworks can help us understand modern reactions to celebrities like Swift. Then, they turn to Life of a Showgirl to explore how Taylor’s own storytelling exposes what we actually believe about celebrity, power, and holiness in the world. Follow The Subtext: Instagram | Threads | X | YouTube | TikTok Follow Lee: Instagram | Twitter | Lee's Newsletter Follow Savannah: Instagram | Substack Join our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What can it possibly mean to flourish in our tech saturated world? In the early 2000s, the internet felt like a civic miracle in the making, with profound possibilities for human flourishing and civic progress. Facebook gave voice to protestors in Egypt’s Tahrir Square. Twitter helped bring down dictators. The web seemed poised to enhance democracy, amplify transparency, and connect us more deeply. But then the tide turned. This episode features Garrett Graff, historian, journalist, and host of the award-winning podcast Long Shadow: Breaking the Internet. In this sobering conversation, Graff joins Lee to unpack how a platform born of hope became a tool for outrage, surveillance, and even genocide. Drawing on more than three decades of digital history, Graff traces how tech's shift from user-driven exploration to algorithmic manipulation created not just a loss of innocence—but a structural system designed to enrage. We hear the story of the Arab Spring, where connectivity spurred revolution, only to become a mechanism of authoritarian control. We examine Myanmar, where unchecked hate speech on Facebook helped fuel mass atrocities. And we explore a haunting question: What kind of people are we becoming through our use of these technologies? Along the way, Graff reflects on his own tech optimism, the moral responsibility of tech executives, and why understanding internet history is a civic—not academic—duty. He and Lee also examine whether AI is already repeating these same mistakes. If you’ve ever asked how the internet became what it is today—or what role we each play in its future—this episode offers both clarity and a call to courage. Garrett Graff’s insights offer one of the most thoughtful takes yet on the digital age’s moral and social consequences. Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Garrett Graff. Thank you to our sponsors: Ka’Chava: Go to ⁠https://kachava.com⁠ and use code NSE for 15% off your next order Boll and Branch: Get 20% off plus free shipping by visiting ⁠BollAndBranch.com/NSE⁠ AquaTru: Go to  ⁠AquaTru.com⁠ and use promo code NSE Tickets to Nov 23rd NSE Live in Nashville: ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.nashvillesymphony.org/nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠ ⁠Join NSE+⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠@leeccamp ⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Anna Sale. When Anna Sale launched Death, Sex & Money in 2014, she was 30 years old, newly divorced, living alone in a studio apartment in New York City, and trying to figure out what her life would become. She had covered politics as a reporter, but her personal world was unraveling. So she started asking strangers to talk about hard things, the questions she herself was desperate to explore: How do people rebuild after loss? What do we do with grief, shame, money, or fractured relationships? What does it mean to live with honesty when the easy script disappears? Over the past decade, Anna Sale has become one of the most trusted voices on how to have hard conversations—the ones we often avoid but need most. Her hit podcast has been named Podcast of the Year by The Atlantic and Apple Podcasts, and her book, Let’s Talk About Hard Things, has been embraced as a guide for meaningful living. In this conversation, Anna and Lee explore the important difference between "let's talk about HARD things" and "yes, LET's! let's talk about hard things." And why talk about hard things might be, potentially, among the most life-giving conversations. They discuss shame and grief, the ways our families teach us what not to talk about, and the habits that help us listen well. Anna reflects on her own divorce, her Unitarian Universalist upbringing, and how practices of honesty and vulnerability help us build flourishing relationships even across cultural divides. Along the way, Anna shares wisdom on navigating sex and intimacy without shame, why money conversations trigger so much discomfort, and what facing death can teach us about authentic human flourishing. Her insights blend psychology and happiness research, theology and culture, and a deep faith in the inherent dignity of every person. A beautiful conversation about being human, and about what becomes possible when we have the courage to ask hard questions and the patience to really listen. Please be advised that this episode contains details that may be upsetting to some listeners, including reference to suicide. Additional resources are available at:  ⁠ NAMI⁠  ⁠Crisis Textline⁠ ⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Anna Sale⁠ Thank you to our sponsors: Ka’Chava: Go to ⁠https://kachava.com⁠ and use code NSE for 15% off your next order Boll and Branch: Get 20% off plus free shipping by visiting ⁠BollAndBranch.com/NSE⁠ AquaTru: Go to  ⁠AquaTru.com⁠ and use promo code NSE Tickets to Nov 23rd NSE Live in Nashville: ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.nashvillesymphony.org/nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠ ⁠Join NSE+⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠@leeccamp ⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Here’s a preview of a new podcast series that Lee recently appeared in, The Alabama Murders from Revisionist History. Florence, Alabama. 1988. A preacher has an affair. A woman is murdered. One death cascades into more, stretching across decades and leaving no one untouched — victims, bystanders, perpetrators, and those just trying to help. On The Alabama Murders, Malcolm Gladwell asks: why, in our efforts to alleviate suffering, do we so often make it worse? Find Revisionist History: The Alabama Murders wherever you get podcasts. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

When Spotify CEO Daniel Ek invests in a military AI startup, it raises a deeper question: how do we live with integrity in systems that profit from harm? In this episode, we explore the uncomfortable relationship between the best and brightest, money, and violence—from Deerhoof’s protest to Oppenheimer’s legacy, from Walter Wink’s “powers that be” to Dorothy Day’s radical refusal to cooperate. Is resistance possible in a world where no dollar is clean? And what does the Kingdom of God have to do with any of it? Follow The Subtext: ⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠Threads⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠X⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠YouTube⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠TikTok⁠⁠ Follow Lee: ⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠Twitter⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠Lee's Newsletter⁠⁠ Follow Savannah: ⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠Substack⁠⁠ Join our Email List: ⁠⁠nosmallendeavor.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

When Anna Sale launched Death, Sex & Money in 2014, she was 30 years old, newly divorced, living alone in a studio apartment in New York City, and trying to figure out what her life would become. She had covered politics as a reporter, but her personal world was unraveling. So she started asking strangers to talk about hard things, the questions she herself was desperate to explore: How do people rebuild after loss? What do we do with grief, shame, money, or fractured relationships? What does it mean to live with honesty when the easy script disappears? Over the past decade, Anna Sale has become one of the most trusted voices on how to have hard conversations—the ones we often avoid but need most. Her hit podcast has been named Podcast of the Year by The Atlantic and Apple Podcasts, and her book, Let’s Talk About Hard Things, has been embraced as a guide for meaningful living. In this conversation, Anna and Lee explore the important difference between "let's talk about HARD things" and "yes, LET's! let's talk about hard things." And why talk about hard things might be, potentially, among the most life-giving conversations. They discuss shame and grief, the ways our families teach us what not to talk about, and the habits that help us listen well. Anna reflects on her own divorce, her Unitarian Universalist upbringing, and how practices of honesty and vulnerability help us build flourishing relationships even across cultural divides. Along the way, Anna shares wisdom on navigating sex and intimacy without shame, why money conversations trigger so much discomfort, and what facing death can teach us about authentic human flourishing. Her insights blend psychology and happiness research, theology and culture, and a deep faith in the inherent dignity of every person. A beautiful conversation about being human, and about what becomes possible when we have the courage to ask hard questions and the patience to really listen. Please be advised that this episode contains details that may be upsetting to some listeners, including reference to suicide. Additional resources are available at:  NAMI  Crisis Textline Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Anna Sale Thank you to our sponsors: Ka’Chava: Go to ⁠https://kachava.com⁠ and use code NSE for 15% off your next order Boll and Branch: Get 20% off plus free shipping by visiting ⁠BollAndBranch.com/NSE⁠ AquaTru: Go to  ⁠AquaTru.com⁠ and use promo code NSE Tickets to Nov 23rd NSE Live in Nashville: ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.nashvillesymphony.org/nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠ ⁠Join NSE+⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠@leeccamp ⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Terence Lester. It was three days before Christmas when Terence Lester’s family dropped him beneath a bridge in Atlanta. With no change of clothes and a biting winter cold, he began a month-long experiment in solidarity with the unhoused. Strangers offered blankets, socks, even stories around a firepit. It was humbling, painful, and life-altering. And it was from this crucible that Love Beyond Walls was born—a nonprofit dedicated to restoring dignity and community for those pushed to the margins: an exploration into what human flourishing might entail among the disenfranchised.  In this episode of No Small Endeavor, Lee C. Camp sits down with scholar and activist Terence Lester, whose own journey from dropout to doctorate is as much about human flourishing as it is about survival. His book, From Dropout to Doctorate: Breaking the Chains of Educational Injustice, chronicles the wounds of generational trauma, systemic barriers, and the loneliness of feeling unseen—but also the surprising sanctuaries: a stranger’s word of courage, a teacher’s belief, and a church’s embrace, and the daily practices that sustain new ways forward. They explore how trauma shapes education, how community makes flourishing relationships possible, and how storytelling itself becomes a form of justice. Terence Lester reminds us that poverty is not just economic—it is cultural, emotional, spiritual—and that courage and compassion are required if we are to serve the common good. It is an invitation to become people who borrow and lend courage, to create sanctuaries for others, and to live with an intention toward justice, belonging, and authentic human flourishing. ⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Terence Lester⁠⁠ Thank you to our sponsors: Ka’Chava: Go to https://kachava.com and use code NSE for 15% off your next order Boll and Branch: Get 20% off plus free shipping by visiting BollAndBranch.com/NSE AquaTru: Go to  AquaTru.com and use promo code NSE Tickets to Nov 23rd NSE Live in Nashville: ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.nashvillesymphony.org/nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠ ⁠Join NSE+⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠@leeccamp ⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In this episode, Lee and Savannah explore why friendships are harder to form and sustain in today’s culture, despite living in the most “connected” era in history. They examine how technology and convenience have reshaped friendship from a priority into a luxury. They ask whether these shifts meet our deep human need for connection or quietly erode it. Ultimately, the conversation wrestles with how we might resist the forces of isolation and reclaim friendship as essential to a flourishing life. Follow The Subtext: ⁠Instagram⁠ | ⁠Threads⁠ | ⁠X⁠ | ⁠YouTube⁠ | ⁠TikTok⁠ Follow Lee: ⁠Instagram⁠ | ⁠Twitter⁠ | ⁠Lee's Newsletter⁠ Follow Savannah: ⁠Instagram⁠ | ⁠Substack⁠ Join our Email List: ⁠nosmallendeavor.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

It was three days before Christmas when Terence Lester’s family dropped him beneath a bridge in Atlanta. With no change of clothes and a biting winter cold, he began a month-long experiment in solidarity with the unhoused. Strangers offered blankets, socks, even stories around a firepit. It was humbling, painful, and life-altering. And it was from this crucible that Love Beyond Walls was born—a nonprofit dedicated to restoring dignity and community for those pushed to the margins: an exploration into what human flourishing might entail among the disenfranchised.  In this episode of No Small Endeavor, Lee C. Camp sits down with scholar and activist Terence Lester, whose own journey from dropout to doctorate is as much about human flourishing as it is about survival. His book, From Dropout to Doctorate: Breaking the Chains of Educational Injustice, chronicles the wounds of generational trauma, systemic barriers, and the loneliness of feeling unseen—but also the surprising sanctuaries: a stranger’s word of courage, a teacher’s belief, and a church’s embrace, and the daily practices that sustain new ways forward. They explore how trauma shapes education, how community makes flourishing relationships possible, and how storytelling itself becomes a form of justice. Terence Lester reminds us that poverty is not just economic—it is cultural, emotional, spiritual—and that courage and compassion are required if we are to serve the common good. It is an invitation to become people who borrow and lend courage, to create sanctuaries for others, and to live with an intention toward justice, belonging, and authentic human flourishing. ⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Terence Lester⁠ Thank you to our sponsors: Ka’Chava: Click ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use code NSE for 15% off your next order. Boll and Branch: Get 20% off plus free shipping by visiting ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BollAndBranch.com/NSE⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Tickets to Nov 23rd NSE Live in Nashville: ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.nashvillesymphony.org/nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠ ⁠Join NSE+⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠@leeccamp ⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Jen Hatmaker. Jen Hatmaker's world unraveled at 2.00 a.m. one night when she awoke to hear her husband of 26 years lying beside her in bed, voice-texting his girlfriend.  That's the brutal story with which Jen begins her new memoir, Awake: A Memoir of Reinvention and Recovery. It was the start of a long, painful journey—through grief, honesty with her self, and ultimately, toward authentic human flourishing. Jen shares what it meant to lose not only her marriage, but also the public persona she had spent decades building. Best known as a bestselling author and beloved Christian speaker, Hatmaker found herself stripped of the institutional supports that once held her world together. And yet, in that undoing, she began the slow work of reinvention. Lee and Jen explore the process of grief, self-awareness, and personal growth—why many of us fear the truth, how religious systems can discourage vulnerability, and what it looks like to move from codependency toward self-compassion. And, Hatmaker speaks candidly about the body’s wisdom, the challenge of letting go, and the act of befriending yourself. Jen Hatmaker is the author of fourteen books, including four New York Times bestsellers, and host of the podcast For the Love. Her latest book, Awake, offers a vulnerable account of healing after loss—exploring what it means to live with purpose, even when everything falls apart. ⁠⁠ Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Jen Hatmaker⁠ Thank you to our sponsors: Ka’Chava: Click ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use code NSE for 15% off your next order. Boll and Branch: Get 20% off plus free shipping by visiting ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BollAndBranch.com/NSE⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Tickets to Nov 23rd NSE Live in Nashville: ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.nashvillesymphony.org/nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠ ⁠Join NSE+⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠@leeccamp ⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In this episode, Savannah Locke and Lee C. Camp dive into a critical discussion of the Netflix show "America's Sweethearts" and the Dallas Cowboys cheerleaders' fight for fair wages. This sparks a broader conversation about the wealth gap, the commodification of labor—including human bodies—in professional sports, and the different types of justice. They explore why many American Christians might be hesitant to critique systemic wealth inequality, referencing historical Christian traditions on money and justice. Plus important public service announcements about skunks and shoes. Follow The Subtext: Instagram | Threads | X | YouTube | TikTok Follow Lee: Instagram | Twitter | Lee's Newsletter Follow Savannah: Instagram | Substack Join our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Jen Hatmaker's world unraveled at 2.00 a.m. one night when she awoke to hear her husband of 26 years lying beside her in bed, voice-texting his girlfriend.  That's the brutal story with which Jen begins her new memoir, Awake: A Memoir of Reinvention and Recovery. It was the start of a long, painful journey—through grief, honesty with her self, and ultimately, toward authentic human flourishing. Jen shares what it meant to lose not only her marriage, but also the public persona she had spent decades building. Best known as a bestselling author and beloved Christian speaker, Hatmaker found herself stripped of the institutional supports that once held her world together. And yet, in that undoing, she began the slow work of reinvention. Lee and Jen explore the process of grief, self-awareness, and personal growth—why many of us fear the truth, how religious systems can discourage vulnerability, and what it looks like to move from codependency toward self-compassion. And, Hatmaker speaks candidly about the body’s wisdom, the challenge of letting go, and the act of befriending yourself. Jen Hatmaker is the author of fourteen books, including four New York Times bestsellers, and host of the podcast For the Love. Her latest book, Awake, offers a vulnerable account of healing after loss—exploring what it means to live with purpose, even when everything falls apart. ⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Jen Hatmaker Thank you to our sponsors: Ka’Chava: Click ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use code NSE for 15% off your next order. Boll and Branch: Get 20% off plus free shipping by visiting ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BollAndBranch.com/NSE⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Tickets to Nov 23rd NSE Live in Nashville: ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.nashvillesymphony.org/nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠ ⁠Join NSE+⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠@leeccamp ⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Max Lucado. Called “America’s Pastor," Max Lucado has sold more than 150 million products and authored over 40 nonfiction books. In this vulnerable career retrospective interview, Lee explores what led Max Lucado to become almost synonymous with grace, acceptance and forgiveness--namely some of his own wounds from childhood experiences in a frugal, sometimes emotionally volatile West Texas home. He recounts stories of his mother--whom he deeply loved--struggling with undiagnosed depression and difficult mood swings; a cheerful and industrious father who modeled stability; and Max's own heavy drinking in his teenage years.  We also discuss Max's new book, Tame Your Thoughts, rooted in the psychology of thought management alongside biblical principles. As rates of depression and anxiety spike, especially among young people, Lucado’s integration of neuroscience, spiritual reflection, and practical action speaks directly to the needs of a culture wrestling with mental health and personal growth. He shares candidly about his wife’s experience with depression, his own evolving understanding of clinical support, and how brain science—particularly studies around neuroplasticity—has reshaped his approach to spiritual life and leadership. The conversation also examines the ethics of silence and speech, particularly in the context of evangelicalism and American politics. Lucado explains why he historically avoided political commentary—and why, in key moments, he broke that rule. From criticizing Donald Trump’s character during the 2016 election, to asking public forgiveness at a 2020 Black Lives Matter prayer event, he reflects on the risks and responsibilities involved in public moral witness. Themes of grace, trauma, conviction, and community intertwine with personal storytelling and spiritual wisdom. It’s an invitation not just to understand Max Lucado better—but to examine the stories, bruises, and beliefs that shape our own lives. How might your past inform your calling? What hidden scripts are shaping your thoughts—and how can they be rewritten? ⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ of our abridged episode with Max Lucado⁠⁠ Thank you to our sponsors: Ka’Chava: Click ⁠⁠here⁠⁠ and use code NSE for 15% off your next order. Boll and Branch: Get 20% off plus free shipping by visiting ⁠⁠BollAndBranch.com/NSE⁠⁠ Tickets to Nov 23rd NSE Live in Nashville: ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.nashvillesymphony.org/nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠ ⁠Join NSE+⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠@leeccamp ⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In this episode, we dissect the summer blockbuster Superman that flips the script by emphasizing vulnerability and humanity over untouchable power. Fans have praised the way the movie let Superman cry, lose, and even ask for help, while critics argue it made him too weak. We connect these reactions to questions of faith, asking what it means to worship a vulnerable God who suffered, wept, and even seemed to lose. This episode was recorded on August 29, 2025. Follow The Subtext: ⁠Instagram⁠ | ⁠Threads⁠ | ⁠X⁠ | ⁠YouTube⁠ | ⁠TikTok⁠ Follow Lee: ⁠Instagram⁠ | ⁠Twitter⁠ | ⁠Lee's Newsletter⁠ Follow Savannah: ⁠Instagram⁠ | ⁠Substack⁠ Join our Email List: ⁠nosmallendeavor.com⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Called “America’s Pastor," Max Lucado has sold more than 150 million products and authored over 40 nonfiction books. In this vulnerable career retrospective interview, Lee explores what led Max Lucado to become almost synonymous with grace, acceptance and forgiveness--namely some of his own wounds from childhood experiences in a frugal, sometimes emotionally volatile West Texas home. He recounts stories of his mother--whom he deeply loved--struggling with undiagnosed depression and difficult mood swings; a cheerful and industrious father who modeled stability; and Max's own heavy drinking in his teenage years.  We also discuss Max's new book, Tame Your Thoughts, rooted in the psychology of thought management alongside biblical principles. As rates of depression and anxiety spike, especially among young people, Lucado’s integration of neuroscience, spiritual reflection, and practical action speaks directly to the needs of a culture wrestling with mental health and personal growth. He shares candidly about his wife’s experience with depression, his own evolving understanding of clinical support, and how brain science—particularly studies around neuroplasticity—has reshaped his approach to spiritual life and leadership. The conversation also examines the ethics of silence and speech, particularly in the context of evangelicalism and American politics. Lucado explains why he historically avoided political commentary—and why, in key moments, he broke that rule. From criticizing Donald Trump’s character during the 2016 election, to asking public forgiveness at a 2020 Black Lives Matter prayer event, he reflects on the risks and responsibilities involved in public moral witness. Themes of grace, trauma, conviction, and community intertwine with personal storytelling and spiritual wisdom. It’s an invitation not just to understand Max Lucado better—but to examine the stories, bruises, and beliefs that shape our own lives. How might your past inform your calling? What hidden scripts are shaping your thoughts—and how can they be rewritten? ⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ of our abridged episode with Max Lucado⁠⁠⁠ Thank you to our sponsors: Ka’Chava: Click ⁠⁠⁠here⁠⁠⁠ and use code NSE for 15% off your next order. Boll and Branch: Get 20% off plus free shipping by visiting ⁠⁠⁠BollAndBranch.com/NSE⁠⁠⁠ Tickets to Nov 23rd NSE Live in Nashville: ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.nashvillesymphony.org/nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠ ⁠Join NSE+⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠@leeccamp ⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Amy Sherman. What if the church were known not for culture wars or abuses of power, but for building parks, strengthening schools, advancing science education, and championing restorative justice? That’s the vision Amy L. Sherman lays out in her book Agents of Flourishing. In this conversation, Sherman invites us to imagine faith communities not as insular institutions, but as agents of civic renewal—places that contribute to the common good. Her framework centers on six “endowments” of a thriving society: the Good, the True, the Beautiful, the Just, the Prosperous, and the Sustainable. Each is a way of asking how theology might shape public life: how churches partner with schools, support economic models that value workers and neighborhoods, invest in the arts, and even help design more beautiful and livable cities. At its heart, this is a call to recover a holistic, biblically grounded vision of shalom—where faith is not reduced to Sunday services or private belief, but becomes a public witness for wholeness in our relationships, institutions, and communities. ⁠Show Notes, Resources and Transcript⁠ Tickets to Nov 23rd NSE Live in Nashville: ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.nashvillesymphony.org/nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠ ⁠Join NSE+⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠@leeccamp ⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What if the church were known not for culture wars or abuses of power, but for building parks, strengthening schools, advancing science education, and championing restorative justice? That’s the vision Amy L. Sherman lays out in her book Agents of Flourishing. In this conversation, Sherman invites us to imagine faith communities not as insular institutions, but as agents of civic renewal—places that contribute to the common good. Her framework centers on six “endowments” of a thriving society: the Good, the True, the Beautiful, the Just, the Prosperous, and the Sustainable. Each is a way of asking how theology might shape public life: how churches partner with schools, support economic models that value workers and neighborhoods, invest in the arts, and even help design more beautiful and livable cities. At its heart, this is a call to recover a holistic, biblically grounded vision of shalom—where faith is not reduced to Sunday services or private belief, but becomes a public witness for wholeness in our relationships, institutions, and communities. Show Notes, Resources and Transcript Tickets to Nov 23rd NSE Live in Nashville: ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.nashvillesymphony.org/nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠ ⁠Join NSE+⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠@leeccamp ⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is part one of our unabridged interview with Parker Palmer. “Things didn’t come together vocationally for me until I was 50.” At 86 years old, Quaker writer, speaker, and activist Parker Palmer has much to say about living a good life. And in his experience, a good life is often hard-won and counterintuitive. In this episode, Parker covers a lot of ground, offering wisdom gleaned from a life lived with attention to the makings of a good life. He tells about his experience seeking and finding vocation, discovering how a rich life entails the embrace of paradox, and living through three major bouts of depression, which gave him an increased attention to life’s small things.  Show Notes  Resources: ⁠Let Your Life Speak by Parker Palmer⁠ ⁠The Courage to Teach by Parker Palmer⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Similar Episodes: ⁠⁠⁠⁠Actor and Activist: Martin Sheen⁠ ⁠Author of The Shack: William Paul Young⁠  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Transcript⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Tickets to Nov 23rd NSE Live in Nashville: ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.nashvillesymphony.org/nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠ ⁠Join NSE+⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠@leeccamp ⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is part two of our unabridged interview with Parker Palmer. “Things didn’t come together vocationally for me until I was 50.” At 86 years old, Quaker writer, speaker, and activist Parker Palmer has much to say about living a good life. And in his experience, a good life is often hard-won and counterintuitive. In this episode, Parker covers a lot of ground, offering wisdom gleaned from a life lived with attention to the makings of a good life. He tells about his experience seeking and finding vocation, discovering how a rich life entails the embrace of paradox, and living through three major bouts of depression, which gave him an increased attention to life’s small things.  Show Notes  Resources: ⁠Let Your Life Speak by Parker Palmer⁠ ⁠The Courage to Teach by Parker Palmer⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Similar Episodes: ⁠⁠⁠⁠Actor and Activist: Martin Sheen⁠ ⁠Author of The Shack: William Paul Young⁠  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Transcript⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Tickets to Nov 23rd NSE Live in Nashville: ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.nashvillesymphony.org/nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠ ⁠Join NSE+⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠@leeccamp ⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

“Things didn’t come together vocationally for me until I was 50.” At 86 years old, Quaker writer, speaker, and activist Parker Palmer has much to say about living a good life. And in his experience, a good life is often hard-won and counterintuitive. In this episode, Parker covers a lot of ground, offering wisdom gleaned from a life lived with attention to the makings of a good life. He tells about his experience seeking and finding vocation, discovering how a rich life entails the embrace of paradox, and living through three major bouts of depression, which gave him an increased attention to life’s small things.  Show Notes  Resources: Let Your Life Speak by Parker Palmer The Courage to Teach by Parker Palmer ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Similar Episodes: ⁠Actor and Activist: Martin Sheen Author of The Shack: William Paul Young  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Transcript⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Tickets to Nov 23rd NSE Live in Nashville: ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.nashvillesymphony.org/nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠ ⁠Join NSE+⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠@leeccamp ⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Anne-Laure Le Cunff. When Anne-Laure Le Cunff—then a high-achieving Google executive—was told to go to the hospital for a life-threatening blood clot, she found herself first checking her calendar. Her bizarre response told her something was wrong with her life and priorities. She left Silicon Valley, earned a degree in neuroscience, and wrote Tiny Experiments: How to Live Freely in a Goal-Obsessed World. In this conversation with Lee C. Camp, Le Cunff explores the neuroscience behind procrastination, perfectionism, and burnout. She introduces a radical yet practical shift: replacing rigid goal-setting with small, curiosity-driven experiments. Drawing from her research at King’s College London and her work at Ness Labs, she explains how embracing uncertainty and intentional imperfection can unlock personal growth, reduce anxiety, and spark creativity. You’ll learn how to redesign your relationship with productivity by experimenting with tiny experiments, explore the psychology of goal-setting, and discover how tiny experiments can help rewire your mental scripts. For anyone struggling with burnout, toxic perfectionism, or simply feeling stuck, this episode offers a science-backed path toward a more adaptive, joyful life. Show Notes, Resources and Transcript⁠⁠ Tickets to Nov 23rd NSE Live in Nashville: ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.nashvillesymphony.org/nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠ ⁠Join NSE+⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠@leeccamp ⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

When Anne-Laure Le Cunff—then a high-achieving Google executive—was told to go to the hospital for a life-threatening blood clot, she found herself first checking her calendar. Her bizarre response told her something was wrong with her life and priorities. She left Silicon Valley, earned a degree in neuroscience, and wrote Tiny Experiments: How to Live Freely in a Goal-Obsessed World. In this conversation with Lee C. Camp, Le Cunff explores the neuroscience behind procrastination, perfectionism, and burnout. She introduces a radical yet practical shift: replacing rigid goal-setting with small, curiosity-driven experiments. Drawing from her research at King’s College London and her work at Ness Labs, she explains how embracing uncertainty and intentional imperfection can unlock personal growth, reduce anxiety, and spark creativity. You’ll learn how to redesign your relationship with productivity by experimenting with tiny experiments, explore the psychology of goal-setting, and discover how tiny experiments can help rewire your mental scripts. For anyone struggling with burnout, toxic perfectionism, or simply feeling stuck, this episode offers a science-backed path toward a more adaptive, joyful life. ⁠Show Notes, Resources and Transcript⁠ Tickets to Nov 23rd NSE Live in Nashville: ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.nashvillesymphony.org/nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠ ⁠Join NSE+⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠@leeccamp ⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Baratunde Thurston. What does it mean to be human in the age of AI? From writing for The Onion to hosting PBS’s America Outdoors and launching the hit podcast Life With Machines, Baratunde Thurston has spent a career telling stories about interdependence—with one another, with the natural world, and now, with rising machine intelligence. Together, he and Lee unpack how AI both challenges and affirms our humanity, and what practices of democracy might guide us toward a more equitable technological future. ⁠Show Notes, Resources and Transcript⁠ Tickets to Nov 23rd NSE Live in Nashville: ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.nashvillesymphony.org/nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠ ⁠Join NSE+⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠@leeccamp ⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What does it mean to be human in the age of AI? From writing for The Onion to hosting PBS’s America Outdoors and launching the hit podcast Life With Machines, Baratunde Thurston has spent a career telling stories about interdependence—with one another, with the natural world, and now, with rising machine intelligence. Together, he and Lee unpack how AI both challenges and affirms our humanity, and what practices of democracy might guide us toward a more equitable technological future. Show Notes, Resources and Transcript Tickets to Nov 23rd NSE Live in Nashville: ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.nashvillesymphony.org/nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠ ⁠Join NSE+⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠@leeccamp ⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Dan Heath. Do you feel like your life needs a reset?  Lee C. Camp sits down with Dan Heath, bestselling author and host of the podcast What It's Like To Be, to explore strategies of how we can change, whether at work or in our personal lives. In his new book Reset: How to Change What’s Not Working, Dan shares proven techniques he discovered to help transform small observations into meaningful change, paving the way for a more satisfying life.  Show Notes, Resources and Transcript No Small Endeavor: Exploring what it means to live a good life, with thought provoking conversations about human flourishing, theology, politics, faith, social sciences, search for meaning, meaning and purpose, practices, common good, truth beauty and goodness, productivity, habit formation, neuroscience, science and religion, social justice, cardinal virtues, how of happiness, theology and culture, self development, happiness, virtue theory, being human, moral philosophy, community Join our subscriber only community called NSE+ BY CLICKING HERE. Get ad-free listening, great member only bonus content, and early access to tickets for our live shows. AND, know that you're helping make NSE sustainable by becoming a member.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Do you feel like your life needs a reset?  Lee C. Camp sits down with Dan Heath, bestselling author and host of the podcast What It's Like To Be, to explore strategies of how we can change, whether at work or in our personal lives. In his new book Reset: How to Change What’s Not Working, Dan shares proven techniques he discovered to help transform small observations into meaningful change, paving the way for a more satisfying life.  ⁠Show Notes, Resources and Transcript⁠ No Small Endeavor: Exploring what it means to live a good life, with thought provoking conversations about human flourishing, theology, politics, faith, social sciences, search for meaning, meaning and purpose, practices, common good, truth beauty and goodness, productivity, habit formation, neuroscience, science and religion, social justice, cardinal virtues, how of happiness, theology and culture, self development, happiness, virtue theory, being human, moral philosophy, community Join our subscriber only community called ⁠NSE+ BY CLICKING HERE⁠. Get ad-free listening, great member only bonus content, and early access to tickets for our live shows. AND, know that you're helping make NSE sustainable by becoming a member.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Sharon McMahon. Have you ever wished someone would explain the inner workings of America’s political landscape — without taking sides or fueling the outrage machine?  With over 1.3 million Instagram followers, Sharon McMahon, known affectionately as “America’s Government Teacher,” has spent her career doing exactly that. Drawing from her roots in public education, Sharon rose to prominence on social media during the chaotic 2020 election season. Her clear, fact-based explanations of complex government processes have garnered her a loyal following of self-proclaimed “Governerds,” and today, her teaching reaches millions through her acclaimed podcast, Here's Where It Gets Interesting, her best-selling book The Small and the Mighty, and The Preamble, one of America's most widely-read nonpartisan newsletters. In this thoughtful conversation, Sharon reflects on the transformative power of education, the urgent need for informed civic participation, and the hopeful possibilities that emerge when we approach politics not as partisan warriors but as compassionate, curious learners.  ⁠Show Notes, Resources and Transcript⁠ No Small Endeavor: Exploring what it means to live a good life, with thought provoking conversations about human flourishing, theology, politics, faith, social sciences, search for meaning, meaning and purpose, practices, common good, truth beauty and goodness, productivity, habit formation, neuroscience, science and religion, social justice, cardinal virtues, how of happiness, theology and culture, self development, happiness, virtue theory, being human, moral philosophy, community Join our subscriber only community called ⁠NSE+ BY CLICKING HERE⁠. Get ad-free listening, great member only bonus content, and early access to tickets for our live shows. AND, know that you're helping make NSE sustainable by becoming a member.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Have you ever wished someone would explain the inner workings of America’s political landscape — without taking sides or fueling the outrage machine?  With over 1.3 million Instagram followers, Sharon McMahon, known affectionately as “America’s Government Teacher,” has spent her career doing exactly that. Drawing from her roots in public education, Sharon rose to prominence on social media during the chaotic 2020 election season. Her clear, fact-based explanations of complex government processes have garnered her a loyal following of self-proclaimed “Governerds,” and today, her teaching reaches millions through her acclaimed podcast, Here's Where It Gets Interesting, her best-selling book The Small and the Mighty, and The Preamble, one of America's most widely-read nonpartisan newsletters. In this thoughtful conversation, Sharon reflects on the transformative power of education, the urgent need for informed civic participation, and the hopeful possibilities that emerge when we approach politics not as partisan warriors but as compassionate, curious learners.  Show Notes, Resources and Transcript No Small Endeavor: Exploring what it means to live a good life, with thought provoking conversations about human flourishing, theology, politics, faith, social sciences, search for meaning, meaning and purpose, practices, common good, truth beauty and goodness, productivity, habit formation, neuroscience, science and religion, social justice, cardinal virtues, how of happiness, theology and culture, self development, happiness, virtue theory, being human, moral philosophy, community Join our subscriber only community called NSE+ BY CLICKING HERE. Get ad-free listening, great member only bonus content, and early access to tickets for our live shows. AND, know that you're helping make NSE sustainable by becoming a member.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Emma Varvaloucas. What if the way you consume the news could shape the world for the better?  In this stirring conversation, Lee C. Camp sits down with journalist and Buddhist practitioner Emma Varvaloucas, Executive Director of The Progress Network, to explore how we can reclaim our agency in a world addicted to anxiety.  Emma shares practical tips for engaging with the news that not only have the potential to reduce despair but may unlock new energy to take action for a better world. Drawing from her journey through Buddhism, therapy, and even psychedelics, Emma offers tools for transforming our inner world and renewing our civic imagination. This is not about wishful thinking, but a hopeful realism rooted in data, perspective, and the belief that how we see the world can help change it. ⁠Show Notes, Resources and Transcript⁠ No Small Endeavor: Exploring what it means to live a good life, with thought provoking conversations about human flourishing, theology, politics, faith, social sciences, search for meaning, meaning and purpose, practices, common good, truth beauty and goodness, productivity, habit formation, neuroscience, science and religion, social justice, cardinal virtues, how of happiness, theology and culture, self development, happiness, virtue theory, being human, moral philosophy, community Join our subscriber only community called ⁠NSE+ BY CLICKING HERE⁠. Get ad-free listening, great member only bonus content, and early access to tickets for our live shows. AND, know that you're helping make NSE sustainable by becoming a member.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What if the way you consume the news could shape the world for the better?  In this stirring conversation, Lee C. Camp sits down with journalist and Buddhist practitioner Emma Varvaloucas, Executive Director of The Progress Network, to explore how we can reclaim our agency in a world addicted to anxiety.  Emma shares practical tips for engaging with the news that not only have the potential to reduce despair but may unlock new energy to take action for a better world. Drawing from her journey through Buddhism, therapy, and even psychedelics, Emma offers tools for transforming our inner world and renewing our civic imagination. This is not about wishful thinking, but a hopeful realism rooted in data, perspective, and the belief that how we see the world can help change it. Show Notes, Resources and Transcript No Small Endeavor: Exploring what it means to live a good life, with thought provoking conversations about human flourishing, theology, politics, faith, social sciences, search for meaning, meaning and purpose, practices, common good, truth beauty and goodness, productivity, habit formation, neuroscience, science and religion, social justice, cardinal virtues, how of happiness, theology and culture, self development, happiness, virtue theory, being human, moral philosophy, community Join our subscriber only community called NSE+ BY CLICKING HERE. Get ad-free listening, great member only bonus content, and early access to tickets for our live shows. AND, know that you're helping make NSE sustainable by becoming a member.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Melina Laboucan-Massimo. What does perseverance look like on the long road to justice?  Melina Laboucan-Massimo was born in the Lubicon Cree community of Little Buffalo, in what today is called northern Alberta. Some of her earliest memories include chasing dragonflies through pristine wilderness and protesting with her family against the oil and gas companies that threatened their way of life. Melina spent decades tirelessly advocating for climate justice and indigenous rights, until recently, when the Alberta wildfires left her bedridden and exhausted. Today, Melina and Lee discuss her journey back to health and the pathways forward, grounded in Indigenous knowledge, balance, and collective flourishing.  Show Notes, Resources and Transcript⁠ No Small Endeavor: Exploring what it means to live a good life, with thought provoking conversations about human flourishing, theology, politics, faith, social sciences, search for meaning, meaning and purpose, practices, common good, truth beauty and goodness, productivity, habit formation, neuroscience, science and religion, social justice, cardinal virtues, how of happiness, theology and culture, self development, happiness, virtue theory, being human, moral philosophy, community Join our subscriber only community called ⁠NSE+ BY CLICKING HERE⁠. Get ad-free listening, great member only bonus content, and early access to tickets for our live shows. AND, know that you're helping make NSE sustainable by becoming a member.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What does perseverance look like on the long road to justice?  Melina Laboucan-Massimo was born in the Lubicon Cree community of Little Buffalo, in what today is called northern Alberta. Some of her earliest memories include chasing dragonflies through pristine wilderness and protesting with her family against the oil and gas companies that threatened their way of life. Melina spent decades tirelessly advocating for climate justice and indigenous rights, until recently, when the Alberta wildfires left her bedridden and exhausted. Today, Melina and Lee discuss her journey back to health and the pathways forward, grounded in Indigenous knowledge, balance, and collective flourishing.  Show Notes, Resources and Transcript No Small Endeavor: Exploring what it means to live a good life, with thought provoking conversations about human flourishing, theology, politics, faith, social sciences, search for meaning, meaning and purpose, practices, common good, truth beauty and goodness, productivity, habit formation, neuroscience, science and religion, social justice, cardinal virtues, how of happiness, theology and culture, self development, happiness, virtue theory, being human, moral philosophy, community Join our subscriber only community called NSE+ BY CLICKING HERE. Get ad-free listening, great member only bonus content, and early access to tickets for our live shows. AND, know that you're helping make NSE sustainable by becoming a member.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Michael Luo. When journalist Michael Luo was told to “go back to China” on a Manhattan sidewalk, it sparked a deeply personal journey into America’s past. In his new book Strangers in the Land, Luo unearths the overlooked history of Chinese exclusion in the U.S.—from early migrations and violent hostility to the nation’s first racially targeted immigration laws. He reflects on the enduring legacies of that history and the echoes we see today. Michael explores not just patterns of injustice but also stories of resilience and solidarity that offer a hopeful vision for America’s future.  ⁠Show Notes, Resources and Transcript⁠ No Small Endeavor: Exploring what it means to live a good life, with thought provoking conversations about human flourishing, theology, politics, faith, social sciences, search for meaning, meaning and purpose, practices, common good, truth beauty and goodness, productivity, habit formation, neuroscience, science and religion, social justice, cardinal virtues, how of happiness, theology and culture, self development, happiness, virtue theory, being human, moral philosophy, community Join our subscriber only community called ⁠NSE+ BY CLICKING HERE⁠. Get ad-free listening, great member only bonus content, and early access to tickets for our live shows. AND, know that you're helping make NSE sustainable by becoming a member.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

When journalist Michael Luo was told to “go back to China” on a Manhattan sidewalk, it sparked a deeply personal journey into America’s past. In his new book Strangers in the Land, Luo unearths the overlooked history of Chinese exclusion in the U.S.—from early migrations and violent hostility to the nation’s first racially targeted immigration laws. He reflects on the enduring legacies of that history and the echoes we see today. Michael explores not just patterns of injustice but also stories of resilience and solidarity that offer a hopeful vision for America’s future.  Show Notes, Resources and Transcript No Small Endeavor: Exploring what it means to live a good life, with thought provoking conversations about human flourishing, theology, politics, faith, social sciences, search for meaning, meaning and purpose, practices, common good, truth beauty and goodness, productivity, habit formation, neuroscience, science and religion, social justice, cardinal virtues, how of happiness, theology and culture, self development, happiness, virtue theory, being human, moral philosophy, community Join our subscriber only community called NSE+ BY CLICKING HERE. Get ad-free listening, great member only bonus content, and early access to tickets for our live shows. AND, know that you're helping make NSE sustainable by becoming a member.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In a world that is increasingly dominated by profit over people, it’s easy to be cynical about the future. But what if there was a different way forward? Could capitalism, technology, and human flourishing go hand in hand, and what would it take to get us there? In this episode, Lee Camp invites Astro Teller, co-founder and "Captain of Moonshots" at Alphabet’s X, into a conversation about reshaping the business narrative. From developing sticker technology to track global goods more sustainably, to pioneering affordable ways to remove carbon dioxide from the atmosphere, Astro shares how he thinks moonshot thinking can reconcile profit, purpose, and planetary health.  Show Notes, Resources and Transcript No Small Endeavor: Exploring what it means to live a good life, with thought provoking conversations about human flourishing, theology, politics, faith, social sciences, search for meaning, meaning and purpose, practices, common good, truth beauty and goodness, productivity, habit formation, neuroscience, science and religion, social justice, cardinal virtues, how of happiness, theology and culture, self development, happiness, virtue theory, being human, moral philosophy, community Join our subscriber only community called NSE+ BY CLICKING HERE. Get ad-free listening, great member only bonus content, and early access to tickets for our live shows. AND, know that you're helping make NSE sustainable by becoming a member.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with David Blight.  “If you’re not ready on some level for the tragedies of history, they’re coming to get you.”  In September of 2020 Professor David Blight got an unexpected call from his boss. The President of Yale wanted Blight to work on a project about Yale’s historical involvement with slavery. The undertaking was so enormous that the Pulitzer Prize winning historian remembers sitting on the phone “wishing that conversation wasn't happening.” But 4 years later the book was published. Yale and Slavery: A History has been lauded as “the most mature examination ever made of the role of slavery in a university’s past.”  Lee sits down with David to discuss why how we remember the past matters. “This idea that we don't want history to be divisive or to make people feel unpleasant or unhappy…is of course to manufacture tales that just don't hold up. Which is another way of saying it's like spreading lies in the service of nationalism.”    ⁠Show Notes, Resources and Transcript⁠ No Small Endeavor: Exploring what it means to live a good life, with thought provoking conversations about human flourishing, theology, politics, faith, social sciences, search for meaning, meaning and purpose, practices, common good, truth beauty and goodness, productivity, habit formation, neuroscience, science and religion, social justice, cardinal virtues, how of happiness, theology and culture, self development, happiness, virtue theory, being human, moral philosophy, community Join our subscriber only community called ⁠NSE+ BY CLICKING HERE⁠. Get ad-free listening, great member only bonus content, and early access to tickets for our live shows. AND, know that you're helping make NSE sustainable by becoming a member.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

“If you’re not ready on some level for the tragedies of history, they’re coming to get you.”  In September of 2020 Professor David Blight got an unexpected call from his boss. The President of Yale wanted Blight to work on a project about Yale’s historical involvement with slavery. The undertaking was so enormous that the Pulitzer Prize winning historian remembers sitting on the phone “wishing that conversation wasn't happening.” But 4 years later the book was published. Yale and Slavery: A History has been lauded as “the most mature examination ever made of the role of slavery in a university’s past.”  Lee sits down with David to discuss why how we remember the past matters. “This idea that we don't want history to be divisive or to make people feel unpleasant or unhappy…is of course to manufacture tales that just don't hold up. Which is another way of saying it's like spreading lies in the service of nationalism.”  Show Notes, Resources and Transcript No Small Endeavor: Exploring what it means to live a good life, with thought provoking conversations about human flourishing, theology, politics, faith, social sciences, search for meaning, meaning and purpose, practices, common good, truth beauty and goodness, productivity, habit formation, neuroscience, science and religion, social justice, cardinal virtues, how of happiness, theology and culture, self development, happiness, virtue theory, being human, moral philosophy, community Join our subscriber only community called NSE+ BY CLICKING HERE. Get ad-free listening, great member only bonus content, and early access to tickets for our live shows. AND, know that you're helping make NSE sustainable by becoming a member.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Juliet Schor. Are we working too much?  “Time is a vital resource for us to connect with each other, to connect with the earth and …to come together in solidarity, to try and fix what's wrong.”  We have accepted the 5 day work week as the status quo—caught in a cycle of working more so we can spend more, just to keep up with the Jones’. But what if there's a better way to live: For our own happiness, the economy, and our planet?   Economist and Sociologist Juliet Schor, has spent decades researching the way we work, and her new book - The Four Day Week - invites all of us to imagine a future where work is restructured to serve human needs, not the other way around.  ⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources and Transcript⁠⁠ No Small Endeavor: Exploring what it means to live a good life, with thought provoking conversations about human flourishing, theology, politics, faith, social sciences, search for meaning, meaning and purpose, practices, common good, truth beauty and goodness, productivity, habit formation, neuroscience, science and religion, social justice, cardinal virtues, how of happiness, theology and culture, self development, happiness, virtue theory, being human, moral philosophy, community Join our subscriber only community called ⁠⁠NSE+ BY CLICKING HERE⁠⁠. Get ad-free listening, great member only bonus content, and early access to tickets for our live shows. AND, know that you're helping make NSE sustainable by becoming a member.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Are we working too much?  “Time is a vital resource for us to connect with each other, to connect with the earth and …to come together in solidarity, to try and fix what's wrong.”  We have accepted the 5 day work week as the status quo—caught in a cycle of working more so we can spend more, just to keep up with the Jones’. But what if there's a better way to live: For our own happiness, the economy, and our planet?   Economist and Sociologist Juliet Schor, has spent decades researching the way we work, and her new book - The Four Day Week - invites all of us to imagine a future where work is restructured to serve human needs, not the other way around.  ⁠Show Notes, Resources and Transcript⁠ No Small Endeavor: Exploring what it means to live a good life, with thought provoking conversations about human flourishing, theology, politics, faith, social sciences, search for meaning, meaning and purpose, practices, common good, truth beauty and goodness, productivity, habit formation, neuroscience, science and religion, social justice, cardinal virtues, how of happiness, theology and culture, self development, happiness, virtue theory, being human, moral philosophy, community Join our subscriber only community called ⁠NSE+ BY CLICKING HERE⁠. Get ad-free listening, great member only bonus content, and early access to tickets for our live shows. AND, know that you're helping make NSE sustainable by becoming a member.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Jemar Tisby.  “The work of justice is daunting…It requires courage.”  Have you found yourself asking the question “what can I do in the face of so much injustice?” Historian and New York Times bestselling author Jemar Tisby may have some answers for you. From his own experience as one of the only Black worshipers at the “color-blind” Evangelical services of his youth, to his political awakening in the wake of Michael Brown’s murder in Ferguson, Missouri. Tisby explores the history of social justice in the Christian faith tradition, and asks why the white church has so often relinquished its role in the Civil Rights movement? Lee and Jemar discuss his book The Spirit of Justice, and his new video series, Roadmap to Ruin: How the Church Can Resist the Dismantling of Democracy. ​​ ”I believe hope is, is, is not so much a feeling, but action. And when we take steps that lead to human flourishing, we are in fact demonstrating hope.”  Show Notes  Resources:  "The Spirit of Justice" by Jemar Tisby  "The Color of Compromise" by Jemar Tisby  Roadmap to Ruin  Similar Episodes:  Jerry Mitchell: Murder, Race, and Faith  When Justice Never Comes How Can We Begin Again?  Doing Justice Alongside MLK and Rosa Parks  Transcript  Want more NSE? JOIN NSE+ Today! Our subscriber only community comes with bonus content, ad-free listening, and early access to tickets for our live shows.  Great Feeling Studios, the team behind No Small Endeavor and other award-winning podcasts, helps nonprofits and brands tell stories that inspire action. Start your podcast at helpmemakeapodcast.com.  Subscribe to episodes: Apple | Spotify | Amazon | Google | YouTubeFollow Us: Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | YouTubeFollow Lee: Instagram | TwitterJoin our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com  See Privacy Policy: Privacy Policy  Amazon Affiliate Disclosure: Tokens Media, LLC is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

“The work of justice is daunting…It requires courage.”  Have you found yourself asking the question “what can I do in the face of so much injustice?” Historian and New York Times bestselling author Jemar Tisby may have some answers for you. From his own experience as one of the only Black worshipers at the “color-blind” Evangelical services of his youth, to his political awakening in the wake of Michael Brown’s murder in Ferguson, Missouri. Tisby explores the history of social justice in the Christian faith tradition, and asks why the white church has so often relinquished its role in the Civil Rights movement? Lee and Jemar discuss his book The Spirit of Justice, and his new video series, Roadmap to Ruin: How the Church Can Resist the Dismantling of Democracy. ​​ ”I believe hope is, is, is not so much a feeling, but action. And when we take steps that lead to human flourishing, we are in fact demonstrating hope.”  Show Notes  Resources:  "The Spirit of Justice" by Jemar Tisby  "The Color of Compromise" by Jemar Tisby  Roadmap to Ruin  Similar Episodes:  Jerry Mitchell: Murder, Race, and Faith  When Justice Never Comes How Can We Begin Again?  Doing Justice Alongside MLK and Rosa Parks  Transcript  Want more NSE? JOIN NSE+ Today! Our subscriber only community comes with bonus content, ad-free listening, and early access to tickets for our live shows.  Great Feeling Studios, the team behind No Small Endeavor and other award-winning podcasts, helps nonprofits and brands tell stories that inspire action. Start your podcast at helpmemakeapodcast.com.  Subscribe to episodes: Apple | Spotify | Amazon | Google | YouTubeFollow Us: Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | YouTubeFollow Lee: Instagram | TwitterJoin our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com  See Privacy Policy: Privacy Policy  Amazon Affiliate Disclosure: Tokens Media, LLC is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Amy Grant. Five weeks before her 16th birthday in 1976, Amy Grant was offered her first record deal. Now, after tens of millions of record sales, six Grammy awards, a star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame, and a receipt of Kennedy Center Honors, she is widely recognized as the “Queen of Christian Pop.”  From the outside, one might assume that Amy must be a character with a personality larger than life. But in this exclusive interview, Amy opens up about her career as a singer, her family life, and her faith, all against the backdrop of a troubling past few years which have included recovering from open-heart surgery and a severe bike accident.  Through it all, she showcases what truly makes her an anomaly. In spite of her fame, she remains undoubtedly grounded to a life of quiet, peaceful fulfillment.  Show Notes  Resources:  Amy Grant's Website  Similar Episodes:  “Does This Make My Butt Look Big?”: Ashley Cleveland  Fighting Dragons and Singing at Loss: Drew Holcomb  Actor and Activist: Martin Sheen  Transcript  Want more NSE? JOIN NSE+ Today! Our subscriber only community comes with bonus content, ad-free listening, and early access to tickets for our live shows.  Great Feeling Studios, the team behind No Small Endeavor and other award-winning podcasts, helps nonprofits and brands tell stories that inspire action. Start your podcast at helpmemakeapodcast.com.  Subscribe to episodes: Apple | Spotify | Amazon | Google | YouTubeFollow Us: Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | YouTubeFollow Lee: Instagram | TwitterJoin our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com  See Privacy Policy: Privacy Policy  Amazon Affiliate Disclosure: Tokens Media, LLC is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Renowned theologian Walter Brueggemann passed away in June 2025 at the age of 92. In this special retrospective episode of No Small Endeavor, we celebrate his remarkable life and legacy. Drawing from memorable conversations and insightful lectures, we revisit Brueggemann’s piercing critique of what he called the "totalism of market ideology"—the pervasive cultural force shaping American thought and suppressing dissenting voices. With characteristic wisdom, clarity, and wit, Brueggemann challenges us to reject narratives of scarcity, fear, and commodification, inviting us instead into the hopeful vision he famously described as the "prophetic imagination." Listen as he shares personal stories, intellectual turning points, and profound reflections on the power and urgency of truth-telling, both in pulpits and pews.  Show Notes, Resources and Transcript No Small Endeavor: Exploring what it means to live a good life, with thought provoking conversations about human flourishing, theology, politics, faith, social sciences, search for meaning, meaning and purpose, practices, common good, truth beauty and goodness, productivity, habit formation, neuroscience, science and religion, social justice, cardinal virtues, how of happiness, theology and culture, self development, happiness, virtue theory, being human, moral philosophy, community Join our subscriber only community called NSE+ BY CLICKING HERE. Get ad-free listening, great member only bonus content, and early access to tickets for our live shows. AND, know that you're helping make NSE sustainable by becoming a member.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Five weeks before her 16th birthday in 1976, Amy Grant was offered her first record deal. Now, after tens of millions of record sales, six Grammy awards, a star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame, and a receipt of Kennedy Center Honors, she is widely recognized as the “Queen of Christian Pop.”  From the outside, one might assume that Amy must be a character with a personality larger than life. But in this exclusive interview, Amy opens up about her career as a singer, her family life, and her faith, all against the backdrop of a troubling past few years which have included recovering from open-heart surgery and a severe bike accident.  Through it all, she showcases what truly makes her an anomaly. In spite of her fame, she remains undoubtedly grounded to a life of quiet, peaceful fulfillment.  Show Notes  Resources:  Amy Grant's Website  Similar Episodes:  Truth-telling, Anger, and Race: Vince Gill  “Does This Make My Butt Look Big?”: Ashley Cleveland  Fighting Dragons and Singing at Loss: Drew Holcomb  Actor and Activist: Martin Sheen  Transcript  Want more NSE? JOIN NSE+ Today! Our subscriber only community comes with bonus content, ad-free listening, and early access to tickets for our live shows.  Great Feeling Studios, the team behind No Small Endeavor and other award-winning podcasts, helps nonprofits and brands tell stories that inspire action. Start your podcast at helpmemakeapodcast.com.  Subscribe to episodes: Apple | Spotify | Amazon | Google | YouTubeFollow Us: Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | YouTubeFollow Lee: Instagram | TwitterJoin our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com  See Privacy Policy: Privacy Policy  Amazon Affiliate Disclosure: Tokens Media, LLC is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Charles Marsh.  Has religion ever kept you from doing something that was actually good for you?  It did for Charles Marsh. As a boy growing up in the evangelical South, Charles was taught to distrust his own body, to fear his desires, and to treat suffering as a gift from God. So when debilitating panic attacks shattered his world as a young man, he thought that he should count these panic attacks as something he was supposed to feel “joy” about.  Charles is now the Commonwealth Professor of Religious Studies at the University of Virginia. Find out how he navigated shedding the taboos of his evangelical upbringing as he sits down with Lee to discuss his memoir, Evangelical Anxiety.  Show Notes  Resources:  "Evangelical Anxiety: A Memoir" by Charles Marsh  "God’s Long Summer: Stories of Faith and Civil Rights" by Charles Marsh  Similar Episodes:  What Hath Christianity to do with Psychology? Mark McMinn  Is Conservative Christianity Anti-Intellectual?: Molly Worthen  Mike Cosper: A Critique of American Christianity  Transcript  Want more NSE? JOIN NSE+ Today! Our subscriber only community comes with bonus content, ad-free listening, and early access to tickets for our live shows.  Great Feeling Studios, the team behind No Small Endeavor and other award-winning podcasts, helps nonprofits and brands tell stories that inspire action. Start your podcast at helpmemakeapodcast.com.  Subscribe to episodes: Apple | Spotify | Amazon | Google | YouTubeFollow Us: Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | YouTubeFollow Lee: Instagram | TwitterJoin our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com  See Privacy Policy: Privacy Policy  Amazon Affiliate Disclosure: Tokens Media, LLC is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Has religion ever kept you from doing something that was actually good for you?  It did for Charles Marsh. As a boy growing up in the evangelical South, Charles was taught to distrust his own body, to fear his desires, and to treat suffering as a gift from God. So when debilitating panic attacks shattered his world as a young man, he thought that he should count these panic attacks as something he was supposed to feel “joy” about.  Charles is now the Commonwealth Professor of Religious Studies at the University of Virginia. Find out how he navigated shedding the taboos of his evangelical upbringing as he sits down with Lee to discuss his memoir, Evangelical Anxiety.  Show Notes  Resources:  "Evangelical Anxiety: A Memoir" by Charles Marsh  "God’s Long Summer: Stories of Faith and Civil Rights" by Charles Marsh  Similar Episodes:  What Hath Christianity to do with Psychology? Mark McMinn  Is Conservative Christianity Anti-Intellectual?: Molly Worthen  Mike Cosper: A Critique of American Christianity  Transcript  Want more NSE? JOIN NSE+ Today! Our subscriber only community comes with bonus content, ad-free listening, and early access to tickets for our live shows.  Great Feeling Studios, the team behind No Small Endeavor and other award-winning podcasts, helps nonprofits and brands tell stories that inspire action. Start your podcast at helpmemakeapodcast.com.  Subscribe to episodes: Apple | Spotify | Amazon | Google | YouTubeFollow Us: Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | YouTubeFollow Lee: Instagram | TwitterJoin our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com  See Privacy Policy: Privacy Policy  Amazon Affiliate Disclosure: Tokens Media, LLC is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Holy Post.  Can you do insider critique with a sense of humor?  You might know Phil Vischer as the creator of the beloved children’s show VeggieTales, or Skye Jethani for his work as a pastor, speaker, and author. Both of them are long-time public Christian voices.  These days, though, they find themselves hosting the Holy Post podcast, doing the hard work of insider critique of a Christian subculture that, in recent years, has boiled over with white nationalism, Trumpism, and many forms of injustice. In this episode, they discuss how they try to do their work with intelligence, care, and humor.  Show Notes  Resources:  The Holy Post  “What If Jesus Was Serious about Justice?” by Skye Jethani  Francis Collins on Stephen Colbert  Similar Episodes:  Russell Moore and David French: How Should Christians Do Politics?  David French: Conservatism Without Trumpism  Francis Collins: The Road to Wisdom in an Age of Distrust  Transcript  Want more NSE? JOIN NSE+ Today! Our subscriber only community comes with bonus content, ad-free listening, and early access to tickets for our live shows.  Great Feeling Studios, the team behind No Small Endeavor and other award-winning podcasts, helps nonprofits and brands tell stories that inspire action. Start your podcast at helpmemakeapodcast.com.  Subscribe to episodes: Apple | Spotify | Amazon | Google | YouTubeFollow Us: Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | YouTubeFollow Lee: Instagram | TwitterJoin our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com  See Privacy Policy: Privacy Policy  Amazon Affiliate Disclosure: Tokens Media, LLC is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Can you do insider critique with a sense of humor?  You might know Phil Vischer as the creator of the beloved children’s show VeggieTales, or Skye Jethani for his work as a pastor, speaker, and author. Both of them are long-time public Christian voices.  These days, though, they find themselves hosting the Holy Post podcast, doing the hard work of insider critique of a Christian subculture that, in recent years, has boiled over with white nationalism, Trumpism, and many forms of injustice. In this episode, they discuss how they try to do their work with intelligence, care, and humor.  Show Notes  Resources:  The Holy Post  “What If Jesus Was Serious about Justice?” by Skye Jethani  Francis Collins on Stephen Colbert  Similar Episodes:  Russell Moore and David French: How Should Christians Do Politics?  David French: Conservatism Without Trumpism  Francis Collins: The Road to Wisdom in an Age of Distrust  Transcript  Want more NSE? JOIN NSE+ Today! Our subscriber only community comes with bonus content, ad-free listening, and early access to tickets for our live shows.  Great Feeling Studios, the team behind No Small Endeavor and other award-winning podcasts, helps nonprofits and brands tell stories that inspire action. Start your podcast at helpmemakeapodcast.com.  Subscribe to episodes: Apple | Spotify | Amazon | Google | YouTubeFollow Us: Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | YouTubeFollow Lee: Instagram | TwitterJoin our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com  See Privacy Policy: Privacy Policy  Amazon Affiliate Disclosure: Tokens Media, LLC is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Freddie O'Connell.  “If we want to thrive across the board, then there has to be an accounting for the fact that you may have things that befall you in your life that you have no control over.”  In this episode of No Small Endeavor, Lee C. Camp sits down with Nashville Mayor Freddie O’Connell for a conversation about moral leadership, political realism, and the promise of community.   Growing up in Nashville, Freddie O’Connell was eager to leave for Brown University. But after his career in tech was interrupted by the dot com collapse, a “catastrophic transmission failure” changed the course of his life forever. When O’Connell returned to Nashville, he began riding the bus in his hometown, and discovered how inaccessible the city was for a large swath of the population. He soon became actively involved with the Metro Nashville Transit Authority, and his career in civic engagement began.  Show Notes  Resources:  Privilege Walk   “To Love A City” by Rev. Bill Barnes  Room At The Inn Nonprofit  “Kingdom of The Poor” by Charles Strobel  Similar Episodes:  Charlie Strobel  Bill Haslam  Justin Jones  Transcript  Want more NSE? Join NSE+ Today! Our subscriber only community with bonus episodes designed specifically to help you live a good life, ad-free listening, and early access to tickets to our live shows.  Great Feeling Studios, the team behind No Small Endeavor and other award-winning podcasts, helps nonprofits and brands tell stories that inspire action. If your organization has a message that deserves to be heard, start your podcast at helpmemakeapodcast.com.  Subscribe to episodes: Apple | Spotify | Amazon | Google | YouTubeFollow Us: Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | YouTubeFollow Lee: Instagram | TwitterJoin our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com  See Privacy Policy: Privacy Policy  Amazon Affiliate Disclosure: Tokens Media, LLC is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

“If we want to thrive across the board, then there has to be an accounting for the fact that you may have things that befall you in your life that you have no control over.”  In this episode of No Small Endeavor, Lee C. Camp sits down with Nashville Mayor Freddie O’Connell for a conversation about moral leadership, political realism, and the promise of community.   Growing up in Nashville, Freddie O’Connell was eager to leave for Brown University. But after his career in tech was interrupted by the dot com collapse, a “catastrophic transmission failure” changed the course of his life forever. When O’Connell returned to Nashville, he began riding the bus in his hometown, and discovered how fundamentally inaccessible the city was for a large swath of the population. He soon became actively involved with the Metro Nashville Transit Authority, and his career in civic engagement began.  Show Notes  Resources:  Privilege Walk   “To Love A City” by Rev. Bill Barnes  Room At The Inn Nonprofit  “Kingdom of The Poor” by Charles Strobel  Similar Episodes:  Charlie Strobel  Bill Haslam  Justin Jones  Transcript  Want more NSE? Join NSE+ Today! Our subscriber only community with bonus episodes designed specifically to help you live a good life, ad-free listening, and early access to tickets to our live shows.  Great Feeling Studios, the team behind No Small Endeavor and other award-winning podcasts, helps nonprofits and brands tell stories that inspire action. If your organization has a message that deserves to be heard, start your podcast at helpmemakeapodcast.com.  Subscribe to episodes: Apple | Spotify | Amazon | Google | YouTubeFollow Us: Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | YouTubeFollow Lee: Instagram | TwitterJoin our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com  See Privacy Policy: Privacy Policy  Amazon Affiliate Disclosure: Tokens Media, LLC is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Michele Norris.  “I wanted to create a vehicle that allowed people to talk about this allegedly toxic topic on their own terms.”- Michele Norris.   Could you describe your experience of race in America in just 6 words? That’s the very thing Journalist Michele Norris asked 200 strangers to do back in 2015, when she printed a stack of postcards with these simple directions: Race, your story, 6 words, please send. What began as an exercise to spark conversation became The Race Card Project, a growing online archive comprising over 750,000 answers from Americans of every ethnicity and corner of the country. The responses are at once tender and confronting, and they hold a mirror up to a part of American life that is often felt, but rarely openly discussed.  Show Notes  Resources:  "The Grace of Silence"  "Our Hidden Conversations"  The Race Card Project  NPR's The Race Card Project: Six Word Essays  Your Mamma’s Kitchen Podcast  Similar Episodes:  Musa al-Gharbi  John Blake  Eugene Cho and Karen Korematsu  Transcript  Want more NSE? Join NSE+ Today! Our subscriber only community with bonus episodes designed specifically to help you live a good life, ad-free listening, and early access to tickets to our live shows.  Great Feeling Studios, the team behind No Small Endeavor and other award-winning podcasts, helps nonprofits and brands tell stories that inspire action. If your organization has a message that deserves to be heard, start your podcast at helpmemakeapodcast.com.  Subscribe to episodes: Apple | Spotify | Amazon | Google | YouTubeFollow Us: Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | YouTubeFollow Lee: Instagram | TwitterJoin our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com  See Privacy Policy: Privacy Policy  Amazon Affiliate Disclosure: Tokens Media, LLC is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

“I wanted to create a vehicle that allowed people to talk about this allegedly toxic topic on their own terms.”- Michele Norris.   Could you describe your experience of race in America in just 6 words? That’s the very thing Journalist Michele Norris asked 200 strangers to do back in 2015, when she printed a stack of postcards with these simple directions: Race, your story, 6 words, please send. What began as an exercise to spark conversation became The Race Card Project, a growing online archive comprising over 750,000 answers from Americans of every ethnicity and corner of the country. The responses are at once tender and confronting, and they hold a mirror up to a part of American life that is often felt, but rarely openly discussed.  Show Notes  Resources:  "The Grace of Silence: A Family Memoir"  "Our Hidden Conversations: What Americans Really Think About Race and Identity"  The Race Card Project  NPR's The Race Card Project: Six Word Essays  Your Mamma’s Kitchen Podcast  Similar Episodes:  Musa al-Gharbi  John Blake  Eugene Cho and Karen Korematsu  Transcript  Want more NSE? Join NSE+ Today! Our subscriber only community with bonus episodes designed specifically to help you live a good life, ad-free listening, and early access to tickets to our live shows.  Great Feeling Studios, the team behind No Small Endeavor and other award-winning podcasts, helps nonprofits and brands tell stories that inspire action. If your organization has a message that deserves to be heard, start your podcast at helpmemakeapodcast.com.  Subscribe to episodes: Apple | Spotify | Amazon | Google | YouTubeFollow Us: Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | YouTubeFollow Lee: Instagram | TwitterJoin our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com  See Privacy Policy: Privacy Policy  Amazon Affiliate Disclosure: Tokens Media, LLC is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Kristin Neff.  Is high self-esteem crucial to human flourishing, or, rather, a hindrance?  “The biggest problem with self-esteem is that it tends to be contingent,” says Kristin Neff. “We only feel good about ourselves when we succeed.” Far too often, high self-esteem breeds narcissism, bullying, and prejudice.  Kristin is a professor of Educational Psychology at the University of Texas at Austin. She’s also a prominent expert on the topic of self-compassion, which her research has found to be much more effective than self-esteem in helping people flourish. In this episode, she shares what makes self-compassion different from self-esteem, how to cultivate it, and how it can help us to flourish amidst stress, suffering, and everyday life. We also hear briefly from psychiatrist and author Curt Thompson illuminating the negative neurobiological effects of shame while Kristen explains how self compassion can remedy these effects.  Show Notes  Resources:  Self-Compassion by Kristin Neff  Fierce Self-Compassion by Kristin Neff  Self-Compassion.org  Why Self-Compassion Works Better than Self-Esteem  Similar episodes:  Tara Brach  Judith Moskowitz  Alfie Kohn  Curt Thompson  Want more NSE? Join NSE+ Today! Our subscriber only community with bonus episodes designed specifically to help you live a good life, ad-free listening, and early access to tickets to our live shows.  Great Feeling Studios, the team behind No Small Endeavor and other award-winning podcasts, helps nonprofits and brands tell stories that inspire action. If your organization has a message that deserves to be heard, start your podcast at helpmemakeapodcast.com.  Subscribe to episodes: Apple | Spotify | Amazon | Google | YouTubeFollow Us: Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | YouTubeFollow Lee: Instagram | TwitterJoin our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com  See Privacy Policy: Privacy Policy  Amazon Affiliate Disclosure: Tokens Media, LLC is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Today, we are sharing an episode of “What It’s Like to Be…” from author Dan Heath.   On the podcast, Dan explores the world of work, one profession at a time, and interviews people who love what they do. He finds out: What does a couples therapist think when a friend asks for relationship advice? Is a Secret Service Agent supposed to pretend like they’re not there when they’re around the president? What are the 3 clocks that govern the life of a long-haul truck driver? If you’ve ever met someone whose work you were curious about, and you had 100 nosy questions but were too polite to ask… this is the show for you. In this preview, Dan talks to Dr. Hindatu Mohammed, a veterinarian from Austin. You’ll hear about how she calms scared cats with pheromone sprays. How she helps clients make hard health care decisions about their pets. You’ll also learn what breed of dog, when having its nails clipped, acts like it's being murdered! You may also pick up a word that you may end up wishing you didn’t know: “neuticles.”   You can listen to more episodes of What It’s Like to Be at https://link.mgln.ai/nsedanheath.  Want more NSE? Join NSE+ Today! Our subscriber only community with bonus episodes designed specifically to help you live a good life, ad-free listening, and early access to tickets to our live shows.  Great Feeling Studios, the team behind No Small Endeavor and other award-winning podcasts, helps nonprofits and brands tell stories that inspire action. If your organization has a message that deserves to be heard, start your podcast at helpmemakeapodcast.com.  Subscribe to episodes: Apple | Spotify | Amazon | Google | YouTubeFollow Us: Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | YouTubeFollow Lee: Instagram | TwitterJoin our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com  See Privacy Policy: Privacy Policy  Amazon Affiliate Disclosure: Tokens Media, LLC is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In stressful times, what if the key to mental and emotional well-being was not a mystery, but a set of daily, accessible practices that you could start today? In this special compilation episode we’ve curated guidance from some of the world’s leading voices in the science of wellbeing—including Dacher Keltner, Kristin Neff, Robert Waldinger, Marc Schulz, Judith Moskowitz, Marisa Franco, Amishi Jha, and Oliver Burkeman—to explore how awe, self-compassion, relationships and mindfulness shape our lives and minds.  You’ll learn how experiences of awe can dramatically improve immune health and reduce anxiety; why self-compassion trumps self-esteem for lasting mental strength; how healthy relationships are not only the greatest predictor of happiness but even protect against physical illness; and how intentional mindfulness combats stress and boosts attention.  Through science and lived experience, this episode offers a toolkit for building a more connected, reflective, and flourishing life of greater mental well-being.  Show Notes  Similar Episodes:  Kristin Neff  Curt Thompson  Meghan Sullivan  Heather Holleman  Kelly Corrigan  Transcript  Want more NSE? Join NSE+ Today! Our subscriber only community with bonus episodes designed specifically to help you live a good life, ad-free listening, and early access to tickets to our live shows.  Great Feeling Studios, the team behind No Small Endeavor and other award-winning podcasts, helps nonprofits and brands tell stories that inspire action. If your organization has a message that deserves to be heard, start your podcast at helpmemakeapodcast.com.  Subscribe to episodes: Apple | Spotify | Amazon | Google | YouTubeFollow Us: Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | YouTubeFollow Lee: Instagram | TwitterJoin our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com  See Privacy Policy: Privacy Policy  Amazon Affiliate Disclosure: Tokens Media, LLC is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Sissy Goff.  We are living in a rapidly changing world. Whether politics, technology, or climate - the future that our children face will likely look very different than previous generations. Given the modern challenges of smartphones, social media, and rising mental health issues, should our parenting also be evolving?  Sissy Goff is the author of 13 books full of practical parenting advice for just such questions. She's been counseling for over 30 years, and her latest project focuses on building resilience in children. In this episode Sissy shares practical strategies every parent can use to help their children flourish, and advice for adults navigating the digital age.  Show Notes  Resources:  Sissy’s Podcast  Sissy's Books  “Breath” by James Nestor  “The Anxious Generation” by Jonathan Haidt  “How to Find Meaning After Loss” by David Kessler  “The Road Back to You” by Suzanne Stabile  “Quiet Power” by Susan Cain  Similar Episodes:  Robert Waldinger and Marc Schulz  Angela Duckworth   Alfie Kohn  Transcript  Want more NSE? Join NSE+ Today! Our subscriber only community with bonus episodes designed specifically to help you live a good life, ad-free listening, and early access to tickets to our live shows.  Great Feeling Studios, the team behind No Small Endeavor and other award-winning podcasts, helps nonprofits and brands tell stories that inspire action. If your organization has a message that deserves to be heard, start your podcast at helpmemakeapodcast.com.  Subscribe to episodes: Apple | Spotify | Amazon | Google | YouTubeFollow Us: Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | YouTubeFollow Lee: Instagram | TwitterJoin our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com  See Privacy Policy: Privacy Policy  Amazon Affiliate Disclosure: Tokens Media, LLC is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

There is no doubt that we are living in a rapidly changing world. Whether the topic is politics, technology, or climate - the future that our children face will likely look very different than previous generations. Given the modern challenges of smartphones, social media, and rising mental health issues, should our parenting also be evolving?  Sissy Goff is the author of 13 books full of practical parenting advice for just such questions. She's been counseling kids and families for over 30 years, and her latest project focuses on building resilience in children. In this episode Sissy shares practical strategies every parent can use to help their children flourish, as well as advice for adults navigating the digital age.  Show Notes  Resources:  Sissy’s Podcast  Sissy's Books  “Breath” by James Nestor  “The Anxious Generation” by Jonathan Haidt  “How to Find Meaning After Loss” by David Kessler  “The Road Back to You” by Suzanne Stabile  “Quiet Power” by Susan Cain  Similar Episodes:  Robert Waldinger and Marc Schulz  Angela Duckworth   Alfie Kohn  Transcript  Want more NSE? Join NSE+ Today! Our subscriber only community with bonus episodes designed specifically to help you live a good life, ad-free listening, and early access to tickets to our live shows.  Great Feeling Studios, the team behind No Small Endeavor and other award-winning podcasts, helps nonprofits and brands tell stories that inspire action. If your organization has a message that deserves to be heard, start your podcast at helpmemakeapodcast.com.  Subscribe to episodes: Apple | Spotify | Amazon | Google | YouTubeFollow Us: Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | YouTubeFollow Lee: Instagram | TwitterJoin our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com  See Privacy Policy: Privacy Policy  Amazon Affiliate Disclosure: Tokens Media, LLC is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Sheryl Crow.  After a stellar performance on No Small Endeavor Live, 9 time Grammy Winner Sheryl Crow sits down with Lee to discuss the tension between ambition and creativity, the profound realization that accompanied her breast cancer diagnosis, and the impact of mindfulness and meditation on her daily life. Crow also tells the story behind her posthumous duet with Johnny Cash, the social advocacy that has defined her career, and how embracing an unconventional life led her to motherhood. All that, plus Sheryl's musical performance at No Small Endeavor: Live! Join us as we explore the challenges and triumphs of over 3 decades in the public eye.  Show Notes  Resources:  The Sheryl Documentary  "Forever"   "Weather Channel"  "Redemption Day"  "Love Is A Good Thing"  Sharon Salzberg & Faith  Similar Episodes:  Russ Taff: Music, Addiction and Redemption  Amy Grant: Fame, Vulnerability, and Staying Grounded  Tara Brach: Radical Acceptance  Transcript  Want more NSE? Join NSE+ Today! Our subscriber only community with bonus episodes designed specifically to help you live a good life, ad-free listening, and early access to tickets to our live shows.  Great Feeling Studios, the team behind No Small Endeavor and other award-winning podcasts, helps nonprofits and brands tell stories that inspire action. If your organization has a message that deserves to be heard, start your podcast at helpmemakeapodcast.com.  Subscribe to episodes: Apple | Spotify | Amazon | Google | YouTubeFollow Us: Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | YouTubeFollow Lee: Instagram | TwitterJoin our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com  See Privacy Policy: Privacy Policy  Amazon Affiliate Disclosure: Tokens Media, LLC is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

After a stellar performance on No Small Endeavor Live, 9 time Grammy Winner Sheryl Crow sits down with Lee to discuss the tension between ambition and creativity, the profound realization that accompanied her breast cancer diagnosis, and the impact of mindfulness and meditation on her daily life. Crow also tells the story behind her posthumous duet with Johnny Cash, the social advocacy that has defined her career, and how embracing an unconventional life led her to motherhood. All that, plus Sheryl's musical performance at No Small Endeavor: Live! Join us as we explore the challenges and triumphs of over 3 decades in the public eye.  Show Notes  Resources:  The Sheryl Documentary  "Forever"   "Weather Channel"  "Redemption Day"  "Love Is A Good Thing"  Sharon Salzberg & Faith  Similar Episodes:  Russ Taff: Music, Addiction and Redemption  Amy Grant: Fame, Vulnerability, and Staying Grounded  Tara Brach: Radical Acceptance  Transcription Link  Want more NSE? Join NSE+ Today! Our subscriber only community with bonus episodes designed specifically to help you live a good life, ad-free listening, and early access to tickets to our live shows.  Great Feeling Studios, the team behind No Small Endeavor and other award-winning podcasts, helps nonprofits and brands tell stories that inspire action. If your organization has a message that deserves to be heard, start your podcast at helpmemakeapodcast.com.  Subscribe to episodes: Apple | Spotify | Amazon | Google | YouTubeFollow Us: Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | YouTubeFollow Lee: Instagram | TwitterJoin our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com  See Privacy Policy: Privacy Policy  Amazon Affiliate Disclosure: Tokens Media, LLC is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Mike Cosper.  How do you raise criticisms about a group of which you consider yourself to be a member?  Mike Cosper hosted The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill, a podcast critiquing a lot of the tendencies of American Christianity. “ People are looking at Christianity and saying, is it true?” he says. “I think where I landed after my own negative experiences was asking, is it good?”  In this episode, we cover some of the key issues such a question has raised for Mike - like celebrity culture and toxic masculinity - as well as what it’s like to do the work of insider critique in such a public role.  Show Notes  Resources:  The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill  Mike’s books  Similar NSE episodes: Nancy French: Ghosted by Her Own Tribe Katelyn Beaty: How Celebrity Culture is Hurting the Church Kristin Du Mez: Jesus and John Wayne  PDF of Lee's Interview Notes  Transcript of Abridged Episode  Want more NSE? JOIN NSE+ Today! Our subscriber only community with bonus episodes designed specifically to help you live a good life, ad-free listening, and discounts on live shows  Great Feeling Studios, the team behind No Small Endeavor and other award-winning podcasts, helps nonprofits and brands tell stories that inspire action. If your organization has a message that deserves to be heard, start your podcast at helpmemakeapodcast.com.  Subscribe to episodes: Apple | Spotify | Amazon | Google | YouTubeFollow Us: Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | YouTubeFollow Lee: Instagram | TwitterJoin our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com  See Privacy Policy: Privacy Policy  Amazon Affiliate Disclosure: Tokens Media, LLC is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

 How do you raise criticisms about a group of which you consider yourself to be a member?  Mike Cosper hosted The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill, a podcast critiquing a lot of the tendencies of American Christianity. “ People are looking at Christianity and saying, is it true?” he says. “I think where I landed after my own negative experiences was asking, is it good?”  In this episode, we cover some of the key issues such a question has raised for Mike - like celebrity culture and toxic masculinity - as well as what it’s like to do the work of insider critique in such a public role.  Show Notes  Resources:  The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill  Mike’s books  Similar NSE episodes:  Nancy French: Ghosted by Her Own Tribe  Katelyn Beaty: How Celebrity Culture is Hurting the Church  Kristin Du Mez: Jesus and John Wayne  PDF of Lee's Interview Notes  Transcription Link  Want more NSE? JOIN NSE+ Today! Our subscriber only community with bonus episodes designed specifically to help you live a good life, ad-free listening, and discounts on live shows  Great Feeling Studios, the team behind No Small Endeavor and other award-winning podcasts, helps nonprofits and brands tell stories that inspire action. If your organization has a message that deserves to be heard, start your podcast at helpmemakeapodcast.com.  Subscribe to episodes: Apple | Spotify | Amazon | Google | YouTubeFollow Us: Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | YouTubeFollow Lee: Instagram | TwitterJoin our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com  See Privacy Policy: Privacy Policy  Amazon Affiliate Disclosure: Tokens Media, LLC is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Rainn Wilson. Bears, beets, Battlestar Galactica… and spirituality? In a time of cultural division and political polarization, what role can spirituality play in healing our fractured world? Rainn Wilson—best known as Dwight Schrute from The Office—isn't just a comedy icon. He’s also become an unlikely voice for spiritual reflection in Hollywood, where such conversations are often taboo. In this candid and thought-provoking interview, Wilson opens up about why he believes our divided world desperately needs a renewed spiritual vocabulary—and what that might look like beyond traditional religion.  Show Notes  Resources:  “Soul Boom” by Rainn Wilson  Laughing Matters Documentary  Similar NSE episodes:  Actor and Activist: Martin Sheen  The Road to Character: David Brooks  PDF of Lee's Interview Notes  Transcript of Abridged Episode  Want more NSE? JOIN NSE+ Today! Our subscriber only community with bonus episodes designed specifically to help you live a good life, ad-free listening, and discounts on live shows  Great Feeling Studios, the team behind No Small Endeavor and other award-winning podcasts, helps nonprofits and brands tell stories that inspire action. If your organization has a message that deserves to be heard, start your podcast at helpmemakeapodcast.com.  Subscribe to episodes: Apple | Spotify | Amazon | Google | YouTubeFollow Us: Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | YouTubeFollow Lee: Instagram | TwitterJoin our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com  See Privacy Policy: Privacy Policy  Amazon Affiliate Disclosure: Tokens Media, LLC is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Bears, beets, Battlestar Galactica… and spirituality? In a time of cultural division and political polarization, what role can spirituality play in healing our fractured world? Rainn Wilson—best known as Dwight Schrute from The Office—isn't just a comedy icon. He’s also become an unlikely voice for spiritual reflection in Hollywood, where such conversations are often taboo. In this candid and thought-provoking interview, Wilson opens up about why he believes our divided world desperately needs a renewed spiritual vocabulary—and what that might look like beyond traditional religion.  Show Notes  Resources:  “Soul Boom” by Rainn Wilson  Laughing Matters Documentary  Similar NSE episodes:  Actor and Activist: Martin Sheen  The Road to Character: David Brooks  PDF of Lee's Interview Notes  Transcription Link  Want more NSE? JOIN NSE+ Today! Our subscriber only community with bonus episodes designed specifically to help you live a good life, ad-free listening, and discounts on live shows  Great Feeling Studios, the team behind No Small Endeavor and other award-winning podcasts, helps nonprofits and brands tell stories that inspire action. If your organization has a message that deserves to be heard, start your podcast at helpmemakeapodcast.com.  Subscribe to episodes: Apple | Spotify | Amazon | Google | YouTubeFollow Us: Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | YouTubeFollow Lee: Instagram | TwitterJoin our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com  See Privacy Policy: Privacy Policy  Amazon Affiliate Disclosure: Tokens Media, LLC is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Marisa Franco.  How important is it to have friends?  Loneliness has reached epidemic levels in many countries, with research suggesting that it’s harder than ever for us to make and keep friends. And according to Marisa Franco, the issue isn’t trivial. “ Loneliness is as toxic for our bodies as smoking 15 cigarettes a day,” she says. “We are fundamentally social creatures… it's okay that you really want friends.”  In this episode, she explains why friendship is a crucial aspect of a flourishing life, and gives helpful advice for those looking to make and keep friends.  Show Notes  Resources:  “Platonic” by Marisa Franco  The US Surgeon General’s Advisory on the Healing Effects of Social Connection and Community  Similar NSE episodes:  Alexandra Solomon: How to Have Flourishing Relationships  Kristin Neff: The Power of Self-Compassion  Robert Waldinger and Marc Schulz: The Good Life - Lessons from the World’s Longest Study on Happiness  Kelly Corrigan: How Vulnerability Leads to Connection  PDF of Lee's Interview Notes  Transcript  Want more NSE? JOIN NSE+ Today! Our subscriber only community with bonus episodes designed specifically to help you live a good life, ad-free listening, and discounts on live shows  Great Feeling Studios, the team behind No Small Endeavor and other award-winning podcasts, helps nonprofits and brands tell stories that inspire action. If your organization has a message that deserves to be heard, start your podcast at helpmemakeapodcast.com.  Subscribe to episodes: Apple | Spotify | Amazon | Google | YouTubeFollow Us: Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | YouTubeFollow Lee: Instagram | TwitterJoin our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com  See Privacy Policy: Privacy Policy  Amazon Affiliate Disclosure: Tokens Media, LLC is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

How important is it to have friends?  Loneliness has reached epidemic levels in many countries, with research suggesting that it’s harder than ever for us to make and keep friends. And according to Marisa Franco, the issue isn’t trivial. “ Loneliness is as toxic for our bodies as smoking 15 cigarettes a day,” she says. “We are fundamentally social creatures… it's okay that you really want friends.”  In this episode, she explains why friendship is a crucial aspect of a flourishing life, and gives helpful advice for those looking to make and keep friends.  Show Notes  Resources:  “Platonic” by Marisa Franco  The US Surgeon General’s Advisory on the Healing Effects of Social Connection and Community  Similar NSE episodes:  Alexandra Solomon: How to Have Flourishing Relationships  Kristin Neff: The Power of Self-Compassion  Robert Waldinger and Marc Schulz: The Good Life - Lessons from the World’s Longest Study on Happiness  Kelly Corrigan: How Vulnerability Leads to Connection  PDF of Lee's Interview Notes  Transcription Link  Want more NSE? JOIN NSE+ Today! Our subscriber only community with bonus episodes designed specifically to help you live a good life, ad-free listening, and discounts on live shows  Great Feeling Studios, the team behind No Small Endeavor and other award-winning podcasts, helps nonprofits and brands tell stories that inspire action. If your organization has a message that deserves to be heard, start your podcast at helpmemakeapodcast.com.  Subscribe to episodes: Apple | Spotify | Amazon | Google | YouTubeFollow Us: Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | YouTubeFollow Lee: Instagram | TwitterJoin our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com  See Privacy Policy: Privacy Policy  Amazon Affiliate Disclosure: Tokens Media, LLC is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Drew Holcomb.  ”The scarcity of life is what gives it value,” says singer-songwriter Drew Holcomb. “If we all lived forever, there would be no sort of rush to love and rush to justice and rush to mercy and rush to know people.”  Drew’s new album, Memory Bank, co-created with his wife Ellie, is full of personal stories of love, resilience, mortality, and a strong but subtle social conscience. It was his father that inspired the title track on the album saying on their frequent family road trips that “ hope you guys don't expect to inherit anything. I put all my money in the memory bank.” Drew reflects on the impact this perspective has had on him, his art, and his faith.  Drew and Lee also share their excitement about going on tour together this spring, along with Malcolm Gladwell, for No Small Endeavor: Live. Show Notes  Resources:  Drew’s website  "The Last Sweet Mile" by Allen Levi    Similar NSE episodes:  Drew Holcomb: Fighting Dragons and Singing at Loss  Russ Taff: Music, Addiction, and Redemption  Clay Hobbs: The Wisdom of Numbering Your Days  PDF of Lee's Interview Notes  Transcript  Want more NSE? JOIN NSE+ Today! Our subscriber only community with bonus episodes designed specifically to help you live a good life, ad-free listening, and discounts on live shows  Great Feeling Studios, the team behind No Small Endeavor and other award-winning podcasts, helps nonprofits and brands tell stories that inspire action. If your organization has a message that deserves to be heard, start your podcast at helpmemakeapodcast.com.  Subscribe to episodes: Apple | Spotify | Amazon | Google | YouTubeFollow Us: Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | YouTubeFollow Lee: Instagram | TwitterJoin our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com  See Privacy Policy: Privacy Policy  Amazon Affiliate Disclosure: Tokens Media, LLC is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

”The scarcity of life is what gives it value,” says singer-songwriter Drew Holcomb. “If we all lived forever, there would be no sort of rush to love and rush to justice and rush to mercy and rush to know people.”  Drew’s new album, Memory Bank, co-created with his wife Ellie, is full of personal stories of love, resilience, mortality, and a strong but subtle social conscience. It was his father that inspired the title track on the album saying on their frequent family road trips that “ hope you guys don't expect to inherit anything. I put all my money in the memory bank.” Drew reflects on the impact this perspective has had on him, his art, and his faith.  Drew and Lee also share their excitement about going on tour together this spring, along with Malcolm Gladwell, for No Small Endeavor: Live.  Show Notes  Resources:  Drew’s website  "The Last Sweet Mile" by Allen Levi    Similar NSE episodes:  Drew Holcomb: Fighting Dragons and Singing at Loss  Russ Taff: Music, Addiction, and Redemption  Clay Hobbs: The Wisdom of Numbering Your Days  PDF of Lee's Interview Notes  Transcription Link  Want more NSE? JOIN NSE+ Today! Our subscriber only community with bonus episodes designed specifically to help you live a good life, ad-free listening, and discounts on live shows  Great Feeling Studios, the team behind No Small Endeavor and other award-winning podcasts, helps nonprofits and brands tell stories that inspire action. If your organization has a message that deserves to be heard, start your podcast at helpmemakeapodcast.com.  Subscribe to episodes: Apple | Spotify | Amazon | Google | YouTubeFollow Us: Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | YouTubeFollow Lee: Instagram | TwitterJoin our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com  See Privacy Policy: Privacy Policy  Amazon Affiliate Disclosure: Tokens Media, LLC is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Jacques Pépin.  “Food is the great equalizer.”  This is the mantra that has fueled the career of Jacques Pépin, who is respected as one of the finest chefs in the world. It has led him to cook for presidents and in world-class restaurants, and inspired him to write over thirty books.  In this episode, he explains the role food plays in a flourishing life, describing how it breaks down barriers, builds community, and recalls us to ourselves, all while describing his own journey from a small French village to international culinary fame. Show Notes  Resources:  Jacques’s website  “The French Chef” SNL sketch  “La Technique” by Jacques Pépin    Similar NSE episodes:  Ben Cohen: Peace, Justice, Ice Cream  Malcolm Gladwell: Becoming Malcolm  Peter Harris and Jo Swinney: A Place at the Table  PDF of Lee's Interview Notes  Transcript of Abridged Episode   Want more NSE? JOIN NSE+ Today! Our subscriber only community with bonus episodes designed specifically to help you live a good life, ad-free listening, and discounts on live shows  Great Feeling Studios, the team behind No Small Endeavor and other award-winning podcasts, helps nonprofits and brands tell stories that inspire action. If your organization has a message that deserves to be heard, start your podcast at helpmemakeapodcast.com.  Subscribe to episodes: Apple | Spotify | Amazon | Google | YouTubeFollow Us: Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | YouTubeFollow Lee: Instagram | TwitterJoin our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com  See Privacy Policy: Privacy Policy  Amazon Affiliate Disclosure: Tokens Media, LLC is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

“Food is the great equalizer.”  This is the mantra that has fueled the career of Jacques Pépin, who is respected as one of the finest chefs in the world. It has led him to cook for presidents and in world-class restaurants, and inspired him to write over thirty books.  In this episode, he explains the role food plays in a flourishing life, describing how it breaks down barriers, builds community, and recalls us to ourselves, all while describing his own journey from a small French village to international culinary fame. Show Notes  Resources:  Jacques’s website  “The French Chef” SNL sketch  “La Technique” by Jacques Pépin    Similar NSE episodes:  Ben Cohen: Peace, Justice, Ice Cream  Malcolm Gladwell: Becoming Malcolm  Peter Harris and Jo Swinney: A Place at the Table  PDF of Lee's Interview Notes  Transcription Link  Want more NSE? JOIN NSE+ Today! Our subscriber only community with bonus episodes designed specifically to help you live a good life, ad-free listening, and discounts on live shows  Great Feeling Studios, the team behind No Small Endeavor and other award-winning podcasts, helps nonprofits and brands tell stories that inspire action. If your organization has a message that deserves to be heard, start your podcast at helpmemakeapodcast.com.  Subscribe to episodes: Apple | Spotify | Amazon | Google | YouTubeFollow Us: Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | YouTubeFollow Lee: Instagram | TwitterJoin our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com  See Privacy Policy: Privacy Policy  Amazon Affiliate Disclosure: Tokens Media, LLC is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Francis Collins.  Francis Collins has led some of the most significant scientific initiatives of our time, including the Human Genome Project and the National Institutes of Health under three U.S. presidents. In his new book, The Road to Wisdom, Collins grapples with the erosion of public trust in science, the polarization of society, and the challenge of discerning truth in the modern age.  In this conversation, Collins shares insights from his experiences during the COVID-19 pandemic, his journey from atheism to Christian faith, and the importance of humility in the pursuit of knowledge. He reflects on his unlikely friendship with the late atheist Christopher Hitchens, the philosophical roots of truth skepticism, and the need for genuine dialogue across divides.  Join us as we explore how wisdom, truth, science, and faith intersect—and why curiosity and compassion might just be the antidote to our age of distrust.  Show Notes  Resources:  "The Road to Wisdom" by Francis Collins    Similar NSE episodes:  Quincy Byrdsong: Tuskegee, Healthcare, Justice  Jennifer Wiseman: How Science Produces Wonder  David Wilkinson: The (Not Really) War Between Science and Faith  Rachel Held Evans, Francis Collins, and Ed Larson: Faith, Science, Humility  PDF of Lee's Interview Notes  Transcript of Abridged Episode   Want more NSE? JOIN NSE+ Today! Our subscriber only community with bonus episodes designed specifically to help you live a good life, ad-free listening, and discounts on live shows  Great Feeling Studios, the team behind No Small Endeavor and other award-winning podcasts, helps nonprofits and brands tell stories that inspire action. If your organization has a message that deserves to be heard, start your podcast at helpmemakeapodcast.com.  Subscribe to episodes: Apple | Spotify | Amazon | Google | YouTubeFollow Us: Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | YouTubeFollow Lee: Instagram | TwitterJoin our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com  See Privacy Policy: Privacy Policy  Amazon Affiliate Disclosure: Tokens Media, LLC is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Francis Collins has led some of the most significant scientific initiatives of our time, including the Human Genome Project and the National Institutes of Health under three U.S. presidents. In his new book, The Road to Wisdom, Collins grapples with the erosion of public trust in science, the polarization of society, and the challenge of discerning truth in the modern age.  In this conversation, Collins shares insights from his experiences during the COVID-19 pandemic, his journey from atheism to Christian faith, and the importance of humility in the pursuit of knowledge. He reflects on his unlikely friendship with the late atheist Christopher Hitchens, the philosophical roots of truth skepticism, and the need for genuine dialogue across divides.  Join us as we explore how wisdom, truth, science, and faith intersect—and why curiosity and compassion might just be the antidote to our age of distrust.  Show Notes  Resources:  "The Road to Wisdom" by Francis Collins  Similar NSE episodes:  Quincy Byrdsong: Tuskegee, Healthcare, Justice  Jennifer Wiseman: How Science Produces Wonder  David Wilkinson: The (Not Really) War Between Science and Faith  Rachel Held Evans, Francis Collins, and Ed Larson: Faith, Science, Humility  PDF of Lee's Interview Notes  Transcription Link  Want more NSE? JOIN NSE+ Today! Our subscriber only community with bonus episodes designed specifically to help you live a good life, ad-free listening, and discounts on live shows  Great Feeling Studios, the team behind No Small Endeavor and other award-winning podcasts, helps nonprofits and brands tell stories that inspire action. If your organization has a message that deserves to be heard, start your podcast at helpmemakeapodcast.com.  Subscribe to episodes: Apple | Spotify | Amazon | Google | YouTubeFollow Us: Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | YouTubeFollow Lee: Instagram | TwitterJoin our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com  See Privacy Policy: Privacy Policy  Amazon Affiliate Disclosure: Tokens Media, LLC is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Nancy French.  Nancy French has spent her career helping others tell their stories. As a five-time New York Times bestselling ghostwriter, she has worked with prominent conservatives, celebrities, and political figures. But in her new memoir, Ghosted: An American Story, Nancy turns the pen on herself, recounting her own journey through faith, politics, and personal betrayal.  A lifelong conservative, Nancy never expected that standing against Donald Trump would lead to ostracism from her own community. Nor did she foresee how uncovering systemic abuse at a major Christian camp would result in personal vitriol toward her. In this deeply honest conversation, Nancy and Lee discuss the personal cost of truth-telling, the cultural divide in America, and how faith can persist even amid profound disappointment.  Show Notes  Resources:  Ghosted: An American Story by Nancy French  David French’s NYT column  USA Today article: Kanakuk Abuse Investigation  Gretchen Carlson’s work on NDAs, workplace harassment  No More  SAMHSA    Similar NSE episodes:  David French & Russell Moore: How Should Christians Do Politics  Taking the Beatitudes Seriously: John Dear  Kristin Du Mez sits with David French   PDF of Lee's Interview Notes  Transcript  Want more NSE? JOIN NSE+ Today! Our subscriber only community with bonus episodes designed specifically to help you live a good life, ad-free listening, and discounts on live shows  Subscribe to episodes: Apple | Spotify | Amazon | Google | YouTubeFollow Us: Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | YouTubeFollow Lee: Instagram | TwitterJoin our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com  See Privacy Policy: Privacy Policy  Amazon Affiliate Disclosure: Tokens Media, LLC is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Nancy French has spent her career helping others tell their stories. As a five-time New York Times bestselling ghostwriter, she has worked with prominent conservatives, celebrities, and political figures. But in her new memoir, Ghosted: An American Story, Nancy turns the pen on herself, recounting her own journey through faith, politics, and personal betrayal.  A lifelong conservative, Nancy never expected that standing against Donald Trump would lead to ostracism from her own community. Nor did she foresee how uncovering systemic abuse at a major Christian camp would result in personal vitriol toward her. In this deeply honest conversation, Nancy and Lee discuss the personal cost of truth-telling, the cultural divide in America, and how faith can persist even amid profound disappointment.  Show Notes  Resources mentioned this episode:  Ghosted: An American Story by Nancy French  David French’s NYT column  USA Today article: Kanakuk Abuse Investigation  Gretchen Carlson’s work on NDAs, workplace harassment  No More  SAMHSA    Similar NSE episodes:  David French & Russell Moore: How Should Christians Do Politics  Taking the Beatitudes Seriously: John Dear  Kristin Du Mez sits with David French   PDF of Lee's Interview Notes  Transcription Link  Want more NSE? JOIN NSE+ Today! Our subscriber only community with bonus episodes designed specifically to help you live a good life, ad-free listening, and discounts on live shows  Subscribe to episodes: Apple | Spotify | Amazon | Google | YouTubeFollow Us: Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | YouTubeFollow Lee: Instagram | TwitterJoin our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com  See Privacy Policy: Privacy Policy  Amazon Affiliate Disclosure: Tokens Media, LLC is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Mpho Tutu van Furth.  What does it mean to ask someone for forgiveness? The experience after Apartheid in South Africa has much to teach us.  “In English, you say, ‘I’m sorry, forgive me.’ It’s all about me”   Says Mpho Tutu van Furth, daughter to the late Desmond Tutu.  But in the South African language of Xhosa  “You say ndicela uxolo which means ‘I ask for peace’. And that’s a very different thing than ‘forgive me’”  In this episode, explore the deep impact of apartheid in South Africa, the meaning of true forgiveness, and the profound philosophy of Ubuntu. Discover how Mpho carries on her father's legacy of peace and reconciliation while navigating her own journey as an Episcopalian priest and social activist. This heartfelt and enlightening conversation delves into the courage required to love, forgive, and build a just community.  Show Notes  Resources mentioned this episode:  The Desmond & Leah Tutu Legacy Foundation  Forgiveness and Reparation: The Healing Journey by Mpho Tutu  The Book of Forgiving by Desdmond Tutu and Mpho Tutu  Truth and Reconciliation Commission of South Africa     Similar NSE episodes:  Azim Khamisa: Ending Violence Through Forgiveness  Forgiving My Mother’s Murderer: Sharon Risher  Pádraig Ó Tuama: A Poet’s Work in Peace and Reconciliation  PDF of Lee's Interview Notes  Transcript of Abridged Episode  Want more NSE? JOIN NSE+ Today! Our subscriber only community with bonus episodes designed specifically to help you live a good life, ad-free listening, and discounts on live shows  Subscribe to episodes: Apple | Spotify | Amazon | Google | YouTubeFollow Us: Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | YouTubeFollow Lee: Instagram | TwitterJoin our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com  See Privacy Policy: Privacy Policy  Amazon Affiliate Disclosure: Tokens Media, LLC is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What does it mean to ask someone for forgiveness? The experience after Apartheid in South Africa has much to teach us.  “In English, you say, ‘I’m sorry, forgive me.’ It’s all about me”   Says Mpho Tutu van Furth, the daughter to the late Desmond Tutu.  But in the South African language of Xhosa  “You say ndicela uxolo which means ‘I ask for peace’. And that’s a very different thing than ‘forgive me’”  In this episode, explore the deep impact of apartheid in South Africa, the meaning of true forgiveness, and the profound philosophy of Ubuntu. Discover how Mpho carries on her father's legacy of peace and reconciliation while navigating her own journey as an Episcopalian priest and social activist. This heartfelt and enlightening conversation delves into the courage required to love, forgive, and build a just community.  Show Notes  Resources mentioned this episode:  The Desmond & Leah Tutu Legacy Foundation  Forgiveness and Reparation: The Healing Journey by Mpho Tutu  The Book of Forgiving by Desdmond Tutu and Mpho Tutu  Truth and Reconciliation Commission of South Africa    Similar NSE episodes:  Azim Khamisa: Ending Violence Through Forgiveness  Forgiving My Mother’s Murderer: Sharon Risher  Pádraig Ó Tuama: A Poet’s Work in Peace and Reconciliation  PDF of Lee's Interview Notes  Transcription Link  Want more NSE? JOIN NSE+ Today! Our subscriber only community with bonus episodes designed specifically to help you live a good life, ad-free listening, and discounts on live shows  Subscribe to episodes: Apple | Spotify | Amazon | Google | YouTubeFollow Us: Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | YouTubeFollow Lee: Instagram | TwitterJoin our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com  See Privacy Policy: Privacy Policy  Amazon Affiliate Disclosure: Tokens Media, LLC is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Russ Taff.  “I was 24 when I won my first Grammy,” says Russ Taff. “And within an hour, all the joy is gone.”  Russ is a legend in Gospel music circles. His accolades include six Grammys, sixteen Doves, and three inductions into the GMA Hall of Fame for his work as a solo artist and a member of multiple bands. But underneath—his career, his success, and his past, almost broke him.  In this episode, Russ gets vulnerable about his childhood trauma, his self-hatred, his alcoholism, and his long road to recovery and forgiveness.  Show Notes  Resources mentioned this episode:  Russ’s Website  "Cover Story" by Russ Taff  Similar NSE episodes:  Amy Grant: Fame, Vulnerability, and Staying Grounded  Drew Holcomb: Fighting Dragons and Singing at Loss  Megan Barry: Addiction, Loss, Possibility  Ashley Cleveland: Does This Make My Butt Look Big?  PDF of Lee's Interview Notes  Transcript of Abridged Episode  Want more NSE? JOIN NSE+ Today! Our subscriber only community with bonus episodes designed specifically to help you live a good life, ad-free listening, and discounts on live shows  Subscribe to episodes: Apple | Spotify | Amazon | Google | YouTubeFollow Us: Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | YouTubeFollow Lee: Instagram | TwitterJoin our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com  See Privacy Policy: Privacy Policy  Amazon Affiliate Disclosure: Tokens Media, LLC is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

“I was 24 when I won my first Grammy,” says Russ Taff. “And within an hour, all the joy is gone.”  Russ is a legend in Gospel music circles. His accolades include six Grammys, sixteen Doves, and three inductions into the GMA Hall of Fame for his work as a solo artist and a member of multiple bands. But underneath—his career, his success, and his past, almost broke him.  In this episode, Russ gets vulnerable about his childhood trauma, his self-hatred, his alcoholism, and his long road to recovery and forgiveness.  Show Notes  Resources mentioned this episode:  Russ’s Website  "Cover Story" by Russ Taff  Similar NSE episodes:  Amy Grant: Fame, Vulnerability, and Staying Grounded  Drew Holcomb: Fighting Dragons and Singing at Loss  Megan Barry: Addiction, Loss, Possibility  Ashley Cleveland: Does This Make My Butt Look Big?  PDF of Lee's Interview Notes  Transcription Link  Want more NSE? JOIN NSE+ Today! Our subscriber only community with bonus episodes designed specifically to help you live a good life, ad-free listening, and discounts on live shows  Subscribe to episodes: Apple | Spotify | Amazon | Google | YouTubeFollow Us: Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | YouTubeFollow Lee: Instagram | TwitterJoin our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com  See Privacy Policy: Privacy Policy  Amazon Affiliate Disclosure: Tokens Media, LLC is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Alexandra Solomon.  Is your love life in need of a tune-up?  Just in time for Valentine's Day, renowned relationship expert Dr. Alexandra Solomon joins us to share powerful insights from her book, "Loving Bravely."  Discover how self-awareness and understanding your past can dramatically improve your present relationships.  Dr. Solomon unpacks the secrets to thriving intimacy, from mastering the art of apology to staying truly present with your partner.  Plus, get practical tools for navigating the inevitable challenges of long-term love.  Tune in for this insightful conversation that will empower you to build stronger, more fulfilling relationships.  Show Notes  Resources mentioned this episode:  Reimagining Love Podcast  “Loving Bravely” by Alexandra Solomon  Similar NSE episodes:  Kristin Neff: The Power of Self-Compassion  Heather Holleman: The Art of Conversation  Robert Waldinger and Marc Schulz: Lessons from the World’s Longest Scientific Study of Happiness  PDF of Lee's Interview Notes  Transcript of Abridged Interview  Want more NSE? JOIN NSE+ Today! Our subscriber only community with bonus episodes designed specifically to help you live a good life, ad-free listening, and discounts on live shows  Subscribe to episodes: Apple | Spotify | Amazon | Google | YouTubeFollow Us: Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | YouTubeFollow Lee: Instagram | TwitterJoin our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com  See Privacy Policy: Privacy Policy  Amazon Affiliate Disclosure: Tokens Media, LLC is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Is your love life in need of a tune-up?  Just in time for Valentine's Day, renowned relationship expert Dr. Alexandra Solomon joins us to share powerful insights from her book, "Loving Bravely."  Discover how self-awareness and understanding your past can dramatically improve your present relationships.  Dr. Solomon unpacks the secrets to thriving intimacy, from mastering the art of apology to staying truly present with your partner.  Plus, get practical tools for navigating the inevitable challenges of long-term love.  Tune in for this insightful conversation that will empower you to build stronger, more fulfilling relationships.  Show Notes  Resources mentioned this episode:  Reimagining Love Podcast  “Loving Bravely” by Alexandra Solomon  Similar NSE episodes:  Kristin Neff: The Power of Self-Compassion  Heather Holleman: The Art of Conversation  Robert Waldinger and Marc Schulz: Lessons from the World’s Longest Scientific Study of Happiness  PDF of Lee's Interview Notes  Transcription Link  Want more NSE? JOIN NSE+ Today! Our subscriber only community with bonus episodes designed specifically to help you live a good life, ad-free listening, and discounts on live shows  Subscribe to episodes: Apple | Spotify | Amazon | Google | YouTubeFollow Us: Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | YouTubeFollow Lee: Instagram | TwitterJoin our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com  See Privacy Policy: Privacy Policy  Amazon Affiliate Disclosure: Tokens Media, LLC is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Shankar Vedantam.  We all like to believe that we live our lives rationally, deliberately, consciously. But what if our conscious decision making is just the tip of the iceberg?  “ I feel like I have a full picture of what's happening inside my own mind,” says Shankar Vedantam. But it turns out “there is a large portion of our mind that's working outside of our conscious awareness.”  Shankar founded Hidden Brain Media in order to teach people what science has uncovered about our brains. In this episode, he discusses why we’re not as autonomous as we think we are, and the profound implications for the ways we act, think, and live.  Show Notes  Resources mentioned this episode:  “Hidden Brain” by Shankar Vedantam  Hidden Brain Website  Shankar’s TED Talk  Similar NSE episodes:  Dacher Keltner: How Awe Will Transform Your Life  Kristin Neff: The Power of Self-Compassion  Amishi Jha: Push-ups for Your Brain  Heather Holleman: The Art of Conversation  PDF of Lee's Interview Notes  Transcript of Abridged Interview  Want more NSE? JOIN NSE+ Today! Our subscriber only community with bonus episodes designed specifically to help you live a good life, ad-free listening, and discounts on live shows  Subscribe to episodes: Apple | Spotify | Amazon | Google | YouTubeFollow Us: Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | YouTubeFollow Lee: Instagram | TwitterJoin our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com  See Privacy Policy: Privacy Policy  Amazon Affiliate Disclosure: Tokens Media, LLC is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

We all like to believe that we live our lives rationally, deliberately, consciously. But what if our conscious decision making is just the tip of the iceberg?  “ I feel like I have a full picture of what's happening inside my own mind,” says Shankar Vedantam. But it turns out “there is a large portion of our mind that's working outside of our conscious awareness.”  Shankar founded Hidden Brain Media in order to teach people what science has uncovered about our brains. In this episode, he discusses why we’re not as autonomous as we think we are, and the profound implications for the ways we act, think, and live.  Show Notes  Resources mentioned this episode:  “Hidden Brain” by Shankar Vedantam  Hidden Brain Website  Shankar’s TED Talk  Similar NSE episodes:  Dacher Keltner: How Awe Will Transform Your Life  Kristin Neff: The Power of Self-Compassion  Amishi Jha: Push-ups for Your Brain  Heather Holleman: The Art of Conversation  PDF of Lee's Interview Notes  Transcription Link  Want more NSE? JOIN NSE+ Today! Our subscriber only community with bonus episodes designed specifically to help you live a good life, ad-free listening, and discounts on live shows  Subscribe to episodes: Apple | Spotify | Amazon | Google | YouTubeFollow Us: Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | YouTubeFollow Lee: Instagram | TwitterJoin our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com  See Privacy Policy: Privacy Policy  Amazon Affiliate Disclosure: Tokens Media, LLC is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Nadia Bolz-Weber.  “When I left the Christian Fundamentalism of my childhood, I became an activist.”  Christian Fundamentalism is often looked down upon for its dualistic, black-and-white outlook, which is often used for policing behavior. But, Nadia Bolz-Weber explains, these are the same extreme tendencies that she found in secular activism after she left the church.  Later in life, after working as a comedian and entering recovery, Nadia began to untangle the mindset that had taken her from one extreme to the other. Her long journey has since led her to becoming a Lutheran pastor and a three-time bestselling author. In this episode, she tells her story.  Show Notes  Resources mentioned this episode:  “Shameless” by Nadia Bolz-Weber  “Pastrix” by Nadia Bolz-Weber  Similar NSE episodes:  Philip Yancey: Where the Light Fell  Kelly Corrigan: How Vulnerability Leads to Connection  Musa al-Gharbi: We Have Never Been Woke  Suzanne Stabile: Exploring the Enneagram  PDF of Lee's Interview Notes  Transcript of Abridged Interview  Want more NSE? JOIN NSE+ Today! Our subscriber only community with bonus episodes designed specifically to help you live a good life, ad-free listening, and discounts on live shows  Subscribe to episodes: Apple | Spotify | Amazon | Google | YouTubeFollow Us: Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | YouTubeFollow Lee: Instagram | TwitterJoin our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com  See Privacy Policy: Privacy Policy  Amazon Affiliate Disclosure: Tokens Media, LLC is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

“When I left the Christian Fundamentalism of my childhood, I became an activist.”  Christian Fundamentalism is often looked down upon for its dualistic, black-and-white outlook, which is often used for policing behavior. But, Nadia Bolz-Weber explains, these are the same extreme tendencies that she found in secular activism after she left the church.  Later in life, after working as a comedian and entering recovery, Nadia began to untangle the mindset that had taken her from one extreme to the other. Her long journey has since led her to becoming a Lutheran pastor and a three-time bestselling author. In this episode, she tells her story.  Show Notes  Resources mentioned this episode:  “Shameless” by Nadia Bolz-Weber  “Pastrix” by Nadia Bolz-Weber  Similar NSE episodes:  Philip Yancey: Where the Light Fell  Kelly Corrigan: How Vulnerability Leads to Connection  Musa al-Gharbi: We Have Never Been Woke  Suzanne Stabile: Exploring the Enneagram  PDF of Lee's Interview Notes  Transcription Link  Want more NSE? JOIN NSE+ Today! Our subscriber only community with bonus episodes designed specifically to help you live a good life, ad-free listening, and discounts on live shows  Subscribe to episodes: Apple | Spotify | Amazon | Google | YouTubeFollow Us: Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | YouTubeFollow Lee: Instagram | TwitterJoin our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com  See Privacy Policy: Privacy Policy  Amazon Affiliate Disclosure: Tokens Media, LLC is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Esau McCaulley. What is it like growing up Black in the American South?  The question is too particular to answer with abstraction. Instead, Esau McCaulley answers it in the most personal, humble way available, by telling the story of his family in his new memoir, “How Far to the Promised Land: One Black Family's Story of Hope and Survival in the American South.”   In this episode, Esau discusses what he uncovered from a season of digging deeply into family and national history, and describes what the experience taught him about race, faith, and the culture of the South in the United States.  Show Notes  Resources mentioned this episode:  “How Far to the Promised” Land by Esau McCaulley  Similar NSE episodes:  The Architect of the American Civil Rights Movement: James Lawson  Doing Justice Alongside MLK and Rosa Parks: Dr. Fred Gray  Eddie Glaude: On James Baldwin’s America  Thou Shalt Not Be a Jerk: Eugene Cho  White Too Long: Robert Jones  PDF of Lee's Interview Notes  Transcript of Abridged Interview  Want more NSE? JOIN NSE+ Today! Our subscriber only community with bonus episodes designed specifically to help you live a good life, ad-free listening, and discounts on live shows  Subscribe to episodes: Apple | Spotify | Amazon | Google | YouTubeFollow Us: Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | YouTubeFollow Lee: Instagram | TwitterJoin our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com  See Privacy Policy: Privacy Policy  Amazon Affiliate Disclosure: Tokens Media, LLC is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What is it like growing up Black in the American South?  The question is too particular to answer with abstraction. Instead, Esau McCaulley answers it in the most personal, humble way available, by telling the story of his family in his new memoir, “How Far to the Promised Land: One Black Family's Story of Hope and Survival in the American South.”   In this episode, Esau discusses what he uncovered from a season of digging deeply into family and national history, and describes what the experience taught him about race, faith, and the culture of the South in the United States.  Show Notes  Resources mentioned this episode:  “How Far to the Promised” Land by Esau McCaulley  Similar NSE episodes:  The Architect of the American Civil Rights Movement: James Lawson  Doing Justice Alongside MLK and Rosa Parks: Dr. Fred Gray  Eddie Glaude: On James Baldwin’s America  Thou Shalt Not Be a Jerk: Eugene Cho  White Too Long: Robert Jones  PDF of Lee's Interview Notes  Transcription Link  Want more NSE? JOIN NSE+ Today! Our subscriber only community with bonus episodes designed specifically to help you live a good life, ad-free listening, and discounts on live shows  Subscribe to episodes: Apple | Spotify | Amazon | Google | YouTubeFollow Us: Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | YouTubeFollow Lee: Instagram | TwitterJoin our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com  See Privacy Policy: Privacy Policy  Amazon Affiliate Disclosure: Tokens Media, LLC is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Tom Paxton.  In the 1960s, during the folk music revival in a neighborhood of New York City called Greenwich Village, a small cafe called the Gaslight hosted many singer-songwriters who were up-and-coming at the time. You might know some of their names, like Bob Dylan and Dave Van Ronk.  Among the regulars there was Tom Paxton, who, 60 years and 50 albums later, is still writing and performing folk songs that bear witness to profound societal truths. In this episode, hear from Tom what it was like to perform during those days, what role folk music plays in stirring up the status quo, and thoughts on vulnerability, notoriety, grief, an  Show Notes  Resources mentioned this episode:  Tom’s Website  Doc Watson and Dolly Parton - Merlefest 2001  Similar NSE episodes:  Amy Grant: Fame, Vulnerability, and Staying Grounded  Martin Sheen: Actor and Activist  Drew Holcomb and Audrey Assad: Vulnerable Art  Transcript of Abridged Interview  Want more NSE? JOIN NSE+ Today! Our subscriber only community with bonus episodes designed specifically to help you live a good life, ad-free listening, and discounts on live shows  Subscribe to episodes: Apple | Spotify | Amazon | Google | YouTubeFollow Us: Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | YouTubeFollow Lee: Instagram | TwitterJoin our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com  See Privacy Policy: Privacy Policy  Amazon Affiliate Disclosure: Tokens Media, LLC is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In the 1960s, during the folk music revival in a neighborhood of New York City called Greenwich Village, a small cafe called the Gaslight hosted many singer-songwriters who were up-and-coming at the time. You might know some of their names, like Bob Dylan and Dave Van Ronk.  Among the regulars there was Tom Paxton, who, 60 years and 50 albums later, is still writing and performing folk songs that bear witness to profound societal truths. In this episode, hear from Tom what it was like to perform during those days, what role folk music plays in stirring up the status quo, and thoughts on vulnerability, notoriety, grief, an  Show Notes  Resources mentioned this episode:  Tom’s Website  Similar NSE episodes:  Amy Grant: Fame, Vulnerability, and Staying Grounded  Martin Sheen: Actor and Activist  Drew Holcomb and Audrey Assad: Vulnerable Art  Transcription Link  This episode of No Small Endeavor is sponsored by Dwell—the audio bible app. To get 25% off your subscription visit dwellbible.com/nse  Want more NSE? JOIN NSE+ Today! Our subscriber only community with bonus episodes designed specifically to help you live a good life, ad-free listening, and discounts on live shows  Subscribe to episodes: Apple | Spotify | Amazon | Google | YouTubeFollow Us: Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | YouTubeFollow Lee: Instagram | TwitterJoin our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com  See Privacy Policy: Privacy Policy  Amazon Affiliate Disclosure: Tokens Media, LLC is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Makoto Fujimura.  Makoto Fujimura occupies an unusual intersection of personal realities: He is an abstract expressionist artist who discovered his Christian faith as an art student in Japan. He continually finds himself trying to bridge the divide between religion and art. “I can't really talk about my faith with my artist friends, and I can't talk about art with my Christian friends,” he says. “But for me, it's never been that way.” In this episode, he talks about how he uses traditional Japanese methods of painting — “slow art,” as he calls it — to explore grief, brokenness, and healing.  Show Notes  Resources mentioned this episode:  “Art and Faith: A Theology of Making” by Makoto Fujimura (Yale University Press)  Examples of Mako’s Paintings  The Four Holy Gospels  "Silence" by Shūsaku Endō  Similar NSE episodes:  Drew Holcomb and Audrey Assad: Vulnerable Art  Christian Wiman: Poetry Against Despair  Poetry as Politics: Poet Laureates Tracy K. Smith and Marie Howe  Transcript of Abridged Interview  This episode of No Small Endeavor is sponsored by Dwell—the audio bible app. To get 25% off your subscription visit dwellbible.com/nse  Want more NSE? JOIN NSE+ Today! Our subscriber only community with bonus episodes designed specifically to help you live a good life, ad-free listening, and discounts on live shows  Subscribe to episodes: Apple | Spotify | Amazon | Google | YouTubeFollow Us: Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | YouTubeFollow Lee: Instagram | TwitterJoin our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com  See Privacy Policy: Privacy Policy  Amazon Affiliate Disclosure: Tokens Media, LLC is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Makoto Fujimura occupies an unusual intersection of personal realities: He is an abstract expressionist artist who discovered his Christian faith as an art student in Japan. He continually finds himself trying to bridge the divide between religion and art. “I can't really talk about my faith with my artist friends, and I can't talk about art with my Christian friends,” he says. “But for me, it's never been that way.” In this episode, he talks about how he uses traditional Japanese methods of painting — “slow art,” as he calls it — to explore grief, brokenness, and healing.  Show Notes  Resources mentioned this episode:  “Art and Faith: A Theology of Making” by Makoto Fujimura (Yale University Press)  Examples of Mako’s Paintings  The Four Holy Gospels  "Silence" by Shūsaku Endō  Similar NSE episodes:  Drew Holcomb and Audrey Assad: Vulnerable Art  Christian Wiman: Poetry Against Despair  Poetry as Politics: Poet Laureates Tracy K. Smith and Marie Howe  Transcription Link  This episode of No Small Endeavor is sponsored by Dwell—the audio bible app. To get 25% off your subscription visit dwellbible.com/nse  Want more NSE? JOIN NSE+ Today! Our subscriber only community with bonus episodes designed specifically to help you live a good life, ad-free listening, and discounts on live shows  Subscribe to episodes: Apple | Spotify | Amazon | Google | YouTubeFollow Us: Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | YouTubeFollow Lee: Instagram | TwitterJoin our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com  See Privacy Policy: Privacy Policy  Amazon Affiliate Disclosure: Tokens Media, LLC is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Oliver Burkeman.  In an age full of lifehacks, self-help books, and productivity gurus, many of us only end up busier and more stressed than we were before. What if there’s a better way to live a full, fruitful life?  "The world is bursting with wonder,” says Oliver Burkeman, “and yet it's the rare productivity guru who seems to have considered the possibility that the ultimate point of all our frenetic doing might be to experience more of that wonder."  In this episode, he discusses his New York Times Bestselling book 4000 Weeks: Time Management for Mortals, dispelling many contemporary ideas about productivity, and instead suggesting a wonder-fueled, counterintuitive method for flourishing in the world.  Show Notes  Resources mentioned this episode:  "Four Thousand Weeks" by Oliver Burkeman  "The Antidote" by Oliver Burkeman  “A Testament of Devotion” by Thomas Raymond Kelly   Catherine Andrews, "Why You're Going About Recovering from Perfectionism All Wrong"  Similar NSE episodes:  Seven Ways to Ruin Your Life: Rebecca DeYoung  The Ruthless Elimination of Hurry: John Mark Comer  The Power of Sabbath Rest: Judith Shulevitz  PDF of Lee's Interview Notes  Transcript of Abridged Interview  This episode of No Small Endeavor is sponsored by Dwell—the audio bible app. To get 25% off your subscription visit dwellbible.com/nse  Want more NSE? JOIN NSE+ Today! Our subscriber only community with bonus episodes designed specifically to help you live a good life, ad-free listening, and discounts on live shows  Subscribe to episodes: Apple | Spotify | Amazon | Google | YouTubeFollow Us: Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | YouTubeFollow Lee: Instagram | TwitterJoin our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com  See Privacy Policy: Privacy Policy  Amazon Affiliate Disclosure: Tokens Media, LLC is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In an age full of lifehacks, self-help books, and productivity gurus, many of us only end up busier and more stressed than we were before. What if there’s a better way to live a full, fruitful life?  "The world is bursting with wonder,” says Oliver Burkeman, “and yet it's the rare productivity guru who seems to have considered the possibility that the ultimate point of all our frenetic doing might be to experience more of that wonder."  In this episode, he discusses his New York Times Bestselling book 4000 Weeks: Time Management for Mortals, dispelling many contemporary ideas about productivity, and instead suggesting a wonder-fueled, counterintuitive method for flourishing in the world. Show Notes  Resources mentioned this episode:  "Four Thousand Weeks" by Oliver Burkeman  "The Antidote" by Oliver Burkeman  “A Testament of Devotion” by Thomas Raymond Kelly   Catherine Andrews, "Why You're Going About Recovering from Perfectionism All Wrong"  “Man’s Search for Meaning” by Victor Frankl  Similar NSE episodes:  Seven Ways to Ruin Your Life: Rebecca DeYoung  The Ruthless Elimination of Hurry: John Mark Comer  The Power of Sabbath Rest: Judith Shulevitz  PDF of Lee's Interview Notes  Transcription Link  Want more NSE? JOIN NSE+ Today! Our subscriber only community with bonus episodes designed specifically to help you live a good life, ad-free listening, and discounts on live shows  Subscribe to episodes: Apple | Spotify | Amazon | Google | YouTubeFollow Us: Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | YouTubeFollow Lee: Instagram | TwitterJoin our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com  See Privacy Policy: Privacy Policy  Amazon Affiliate Disclosure: Tokens Media, LLC is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Kelly Corrigan. “What percentage of all pain in the world is related to wanting to belong?”  Kelly Corrigan - who you may know as a New York Times bestselling author and the host of a number of popular radio and TV shows - was a young mother of two when she and her beloved father were both diagnosed with cancer. It was, to say the least, an immensely difficult time.  Yet, she found her way through it by relying heavily on her tendency to be vulnerable, rather than hiding her pain from others. “It's just fodder for us to be closer,” she says of her suffering. “The point is to connect.” In this episode, she shares her story, along with much wisdom gleaned from a life of leaning into vulnerability.  Show Notes  Resources mentioned this episode:  “Tell Me More” by Kelly Corrigan  “The Middle Place” by Kelly Corrigan  “Tell Me More” on PBS  Kelly Corrigan Wonders Podcast  Similar NSE episodes:  Amy Grant: Fame, Vulnerability, and Staying Grounded  William Paul Young: Author of The Shack  Curt Thompson: The Power of Being Known  PDF of Lee's Interview Notes  Transcript of Abridged Episode  Want more NSE? JOIN NSE+ Today! Our subscriber only community with bonus episodes designed specifically to help you live a good life, ad-free listening, and discounts on live shows  Subscribe to episodes: Apple | Spotify | Amazon | Google | YouTubeFollow Us: Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | YouTubeFollow Lee: Instagram | TwitterJoin our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com  See Privacy Policy: Privacy Policy  Amazon Affiliate Disclosure: Tokens Media, LLC is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

“What percentage of all pain in the world is related to wanting to belong?”  Kelly Corrigan - who you may know as a New York Times bestselling author and the host of a number of popular radio and TV shows - was a young mother of two when she and her beloved father were both diagnosed with cancer. It was, to say the least, an immensely difficult time.  Yet, she found her way through it by relying heavily on her tendency to be vulnerable, rather than hiding her pain from others. “It's just fodder for us to be closer,” she says of her suffering. “The point is to connect.” In this episode, she shares her story, along with much wisdom gleaned from a life of leaning into vulnerability.  Show Notes  Resources mentioned this episode:  “Tell Me More” by Kelly Corrigan  “The Middle Place” by Kelly Corrigan  “Tell Me More” on PBS  Kelly Corrigan Wonders Podcast  Similar NSE episodes:  Amy Grant: Fame, Vulnerability, and Staying Grounded  William Paul Young: Author of The Shack  Curt Thompson: The Power of Being Known  PDF of Lee's Interview Notes  Transcription Link  Want more NSE? JOIN NSE+ Today! Our subscriber only community with bonus episodes designed specifically to help you live a good life, ad-free listening, and discounts on live shows  Subscribe to episodes: Apple | Spotify | Amazon | Google | YouTubeFollow Us: Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | YouTubeFollow Lee: Instagram | TwitterJoin our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com  See Privacy Policy: Privacy Policy  Amazon Affiliate Disclosure: Tokens Media, LLC is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Meghan Sullivan. What does it mean to live a good life, and how do we start?  On our show, we make it a habit of repeating our tagline: “Exploring what it means to live a good life.” But in this episode, we address the issue head-on, with the help of Notre Dame Professor of Philosophy Meghan Sullivan.  We discuss her book “The Good Life Method,” which gives helpful insight about the kinds of questions philosophers and theologians have been asking for millennia: What does it mean to pursue a life worth living? What sort of end ought we keep in mind in all our doing and living and being? And how might we get there?  Show Notes  Resources mentioned this episode:  "The Good Life Method" by Meghan Sullivan  "On B******t" by Harry G. Frankfurt  “The Will To Believe” by William James  Similar NSE episodes:  Edith Hall: How Ancient Wisdom Can Change Your Life  Charles Duhigg: The Power of Habit  Rebecca DeYoung: The Seven Deadly Sins  Robert Waldinger and Marc Schulz: The Good Life  PDF of Lee's Interview Notes  Transcript of Abridged Episode  Want more NSE? JOIN NSE+ Today! Our subscriber only community with bonus episodes designed specifically to help you live a good life, ad-free listening, and discounts on live shows  Subscribe to episodes: Apple | Spotify | Amazon | Google | YouTubeFollow Us: Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | YouTubeFollow Lee: Instagram | TwitterJoin our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com  See Privacy Policy: Privacy Policy  Amazon Affiliate Disclosure: Tokens Media, LLC is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What does it mean to live a good life, and how do we start?  On our show, we make it a habit of repeating our tagline: “Exploring what it means to live a good life.” But in this episode, we address the issue head-on, with the help of Notre Dame Professor of Philosophy Meghan Sullivan.  We discuss her book “The Good Life Method,” which gives helpful insight about the kinds of questions philosophers and theologians have been asking for millennia: What does it mean to pursue a life worth living? What sort of end ought we keep in mind in all our doing and living and being? And how might we get there?  Show Notes  Resources mentioned this episode:  "The Good Life Method" by Meghan Sullivan  "On B******t" by Harry G. Frankfurt  “The Will To Believe” by William James  Similar NSE episodes:  Edith Hall: How Ancient Wisdom Can Change Your Life  Charles Duhigg: The Power of Habit  Rebecca DeYoung: The Seven Deadly Sins  Robert Waldinger and Marc Schulz: The Good Life  PDF of Lee's Interview Notes  Transcription Link  Want more NSE? JOIN NSE+ Today! Our subscriber only community with bonus episodes designed specifically to help you live a good life, ad-free listening, and discounts on live shows  Subscribe to episodes: Apple | Spotify | Amazon | Google | YouTubeFollow Us: Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | YouTubeFollow Lee: Instagram | TwitterJoin our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com  See Privacy Policy: Privacy Policy  Amazon Affiliate Disclosure: Tokens Media, LLC is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with The Hillbilly Thomists. There aren’t many Billboard-charting bluegrass bands made up entirely of Catholic Dominican Friars, who play their shows clad in white tunics and rosaries. In fact, there is precisely one such band: the Hillbilly Thomists.  “A Thomist is someone who follows the thought and theological teaching of Saint Thomas Aquinas,” they explain. “We combine it with a little bit of humor about our human condition.” In this episode, they talk about their theology and vocation, as well as how they manage life on the road as priests who have taken a vow of poverty. Plus, they give live performances of some of their finest songs.  Show Notes  Resources mentioned this episode:  The Hillbilly Thomists’ Website  Similar NSE episodes:  N.T. Wright and the Bancroft Brothers: Theology and Poetry  Edith Hall: How Ancient Wisdom Can Change Your Life  Drew Holcomb: Fighting Dragons and Singing at Loss  PDF of Lee's Interview Notes  Transcript of Abridged Episode  Want more NSE? JOIN NSE+ Today! Our subscriber only community with bonus episodes designed specifically to help you live a good life, ad-free listening, and discounts on live shows  Subscribe to episodes: Apple | Spotify | Amazon | Google | YouTubeFollow Us: Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | YouTubeFollow Lee: Instagram | TwitterJoin our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com  See Privacy Policy: Privacy Policy  Amazon Affiliate Disclosure: Tokens Media, LLC is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

There aren’t many Billboard-charting bluegrass bands made up entirely of Catholic Dominican Friars, who play their shows clad in white tunics and rosaries. In fact, there is precisely one such band: the Hillbilly Thomists.  “A Thomist is someone who follows the thought and theological teaching of Saint Thomas Aquinas,” they explain. “We combine it with a little bit of humor about our human condition.” In this episode, they talk about their theology and vocation, as well as how they manage life on the road as priests who have taken a vow of poverty. Plus, they give live performances of some of their finest songs.  Show Notes  Resources mentioned this episode:  The Hillbilly Thomists’ Website  Similar NSE episodes:  N.T. Wright and the Bancroft Brothers: Theology and Poetry  Edith Hall: How Ancient Wisdom Can Change Your Life  Drew Holcomb: Fighting Dragons and Singing at Loss  PDF of Lee's Interview Notes  Transcription Link  Want more NSE? JOIN NSE+ Today! Our subscriber only community with bonus episodes designed specifically to help you live a good life, ad-free listening, and discounts on live shows  Subscribe to episodes: Apple | Spotify | Amazon | Google | YouTubeFollow Us: Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | YouTubeFollow Lee: Instagram | TwitterJoin our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com  See Privacy Policy: Privacy Policy  Amazon Affiliate Disclosure: Tokens Media, LLC is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Audrey Assad. “Why shouldn’t I question that?” This was the question that started Audrey Assad on a journey away from the faith of her childhood and early adulthood. It’s a question that, years later, is still a guiding light for her towards healing and truth-seeking. But asking such questions after years as an acclaimed singer-songwriter in the Christian music industry comes at a cost. Today, Audrey discusses her unreleased memoir “Doubt Becomes Wonder: Embracing the Loss of Everything You Thought You Knew.” They discuss healing from childhood wounds, the consequent navigation of doubt, and Audrey’s experience as a woman in the church.  Show Notes  Resources mentioned this episode:  Audrey’s website  "The Body Keeps the Score" by Bessel van der Kolk  Similar NSE episodes:  Amy Grant: Fame, Vulnerability, and Staying Grounded  Christian Wiman: The Opposite of Faith is Certainty  Joy Oladokun: Listen, Love, and Turn the Other Cheek  Transcript of Abridged Episode  Want more NSE? JOIN NSE+ Today! Our subscriber only community with bonus episodes designed specifically to help you live a good life, ad-free listening, and discounts on live shows  Subscribe to episodes: Apple | Spotify | Amazon | Google | YouTubeFollow Us: Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | YouTubeFollow Lee: Instagram | TwitterJoin our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com  See Privacy Policy: Privacy Policy  Amazon Affiliate Disclosure: Tokens Media, LLC is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

“Sometimes artists have to take a chance and be vulnerable.”  Drew Holcomb and Audrey Assad are two such artists, whose brilliance is in large part due to their vulnerability.  Drew was once heralded by Rolling Stone as “one of Americana’s most popular stars,” and yet he is quick to note that “the human heart was not built for notoriety.” He describes the complex road he took to full-time artistry, his relationship with his fans, the tragic loss of his brother, and more.  Audrey found success in the Christian music industry, until her quest for authenticity and truth led her in a new direction. She shares her story, speaking honestly about traumas and doubts that brought her to where she is now.  Show Notes  Resources mentioned this episode:  Drew’s website  Audrey’s website  "The Body Keeps the Score" by Bessel van der Kolk  Similar NSE episodes:  Amy Grant: Fame, Vulnerability, and Staying Grounded  Christian Wiman: The Opposite of Faith is Certainty  Joy Oladokun: Listen, Love, and Turn the Other Cheek  Transcription Link  Want more NSE? JOIN NSE+ Today! Our subscriber only community with bonus episodes designed specifically to help you live a good life, ad-free listening, and discounts on live shows  Subscribe to episodes: Apple | Spotify | Amazon | Google | YouTube Follow Us: Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | YouTube Follow Lee: Instagram | Twitter Join our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com  See Privacy Policy: Privacy Policy  Amazon Affiliate Disclosure: Tokens Media, LLC is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Peter Levine.  “In order to really move through trauma,” says Peter Levine, “we have to do that in the body.”  As a psychologist with much of his own trauma to work through, Peter has spent his career researching ways to help himself and others come to healing and wholeness. In this episode, he discusses his memoir “An Autobiography of Trauma,” in which he uses his own life story to illustrate his findings.  From a standing meeting with an imagined Albert Einstein, to a host of life-changing dreams, listen as he shares how both his professional research and mystical personal experience have taught him much about the ways our bodies hold trauma, and how we can learn to pay attention to our lives and find healing.  Show Notes  Resources mentioned this episode:  "An Autobiography of Trauma: A Healing Journey" by Peter Levine  "Waking the Tiger: Healing Trauma" by Peter Levine  Similar NSE episodes:  Amishi Jha: Push-ups for Your Brain  Kristin Neff: The Power of Self-Compassion  Tara Brach: Radical Acceptance  Curt Thompson: The Soul of Shame    PDF of Lee's Interview Notes  Transcript of Abridged Episode    Want more NSE? JOIN NSE+ Today! Our subscriber only community with bonus episodes designed specifically to help you live a good life, ad-free listening, and discounts on live shows  Subscribe to episodes: Apple | Spotify | Amazon | Google | YouTubeFollow Us: Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | YouTubeFollow Lee: Instagram | TwitterJoin our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com  See Privacy Policy: Privacy Policy  Amazon Affiliate Disclosure: Tokens Media, LLC is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

“In order to really move through trauma,” says Peter Levine, “we have to do that in the body.”  As a psychologist with much of his own trauma to work through, Peter has spent his career researching ways to help himself and others come to healing and wholeness. In this episode, he discusses his memoir “An Autobiography of Trauma,” in which he uses his own life story to illustrate his findings.  From a standing meeting with an imagined Albert Einstein, to a host of life-changing dreams, listen as he shares how both his professional research and mystical personal experience have taught him much about the ways our bodies hold trauma, and how we can learn to pay attention to our lives and find healing.  Show Notes  Resources mentioned this episode:  "An Autobiography of Trauma: A Healing Journey" by Peter Levine  "Waking the Tiger: Healing Trauma" by Peter Levine  Similar NSE episodes:  Amishi Jha: Push-ups for Your Brain  Kristin Neff: The Power of Self-Compassion  Tara Brach: Radical Acceptance  Curt Thompson: The Soul of Shame    PDF of Lee's Interview Notes  Transcription Link    Want more NSE? JOIN NSE+ Today! Our subscriber only community with bonus episodes designed specifically to help you live a good life, ad-free listening, and discounts on live shows  Subscribe to episodes: Apple | Spotify | Amazon | Google | YouTubeFollow Us: Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | YouTubeFollow Lee: Instagram | TwitterJoin our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com  See Privacy Policy: Privacy Policy  Amazon Affiliate Disclosure: Tokens Media, LLC is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Malcolm Gladwell and Tracy K. Smith  To prepare for family dinners and political conversations this holiday season, two guests offer us new ways of being humble and curious.  First, well-known thinker and author Malcolm Gladwell reveals why we must learn humility if we are to understand each other. “Humility is a habit,” he says. “Habit is a really important word, because if it's a habit, it means it's something that you have to practice.” Then, former U.S. Poet Laureate Tracy K. Smith offers powerful poems that invite us to acknowledge the full, complex, and beautiful worth of the human beings we encounter.  In this episode, listen closely for multiple ways we can cultivate humility, be curious, and have compassion despite our disagreements and differences.  Show Notes  Resources mentioned this episode: "The Tipping Point: How Little Things Can Make a Big Difference" by Malcolm Gladwell  Similar NSE episodes:  Malcolm Gladwell: Becoming Malcolm  Tracy K. Smith and Marie Howe: Poetry as Politics  Thanksgiving Special: Conversation and Gratitude    Transcript of Abridged Episode    Want more NSE? JOIN NSE+ Today! Our subscriber only community with bonus episodes designed specifically to help you live a good life, ad-free listening, and discounts on live shows  Subscribe to episodes: Apple | Spotify | Amazon | Google | YouTubeFollow Us: Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | YouTubeFollow Lee: Instagram | TwitterJoin our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com  See Privacy Policy: Privacy Policy  Amazon Affiliate Disclosure: Tokens Media, LLC is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

To prepare for family dinners and political conversations this holiday season, two guests offer us new ways of being humble and curious.  First, well-known thinker and author Malcolm Gladwell reveals why we must learn humility if we are to understand each other. “Humility is a habit,” he says. “Habit is a really important word, because if it's a habit, it means it's something that you have to practice.” Then, former U.S. Poet Laureate Tracy K. Smith offers powerful poems that invite us to acknowledge the full, complex, and beautiful worth of the human beings we encounter.  In this episode, listen closely for multiple ways we can cultivate humility, be curious, and have compassion despite our disagreements and differences.  Show Notes  Resources mentioned this episode: "The Tipping Point: How Little Things Can Make a Big Difference" by Malcolm Gladwell  "Wade in the Water: Poems" by Tracy K. Smith  Similar NSE episodes:  Malcolm Gladwell: Becoming Malcolm  Tracy K. Smith and Marie Howe: Poetry as Politics  Thanksgiving Special: Conversation and Gratitude    Transcription Link    Want more NSE? JOIN NSE+ Today! Our subscriber only community with bonus episodes designed specifically to help you live a good life, ad-free listening, and discounts on live shows  Subscribe to episodes: Apple | Spotify | Amazon | Google | YouTubeFollow Us: Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | YouTubeFollow Lee: Instagram | TwitterJoin our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com  See Privacy Policy: Privacy Policy  Amazon Affiliate Disclosure: Tokens Media, LLC is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Kathryn Gin Lum.  When is the last time you heard the word “heathen”? The word was originally used to delineate between European Christians who tended to be in urban centers and pagans in rural areas.   “Heathen exists in the mind of the person doing the labeling, right? It's a label that one people foists onto another.”  Our guest today, Kathryn Gin Lum, walks us through the history of the term heathen and how it has utterly shaped the world. We discuss her book Heathen: Religion and Race in American History. The idea behind the term was wielded as a weapon to justify colonization and enslavement, and though the term has fallen out of use, she says the mental map of the world it has created has not.  Show Notes  Resources mentioned this episode:  "Heathen: Religion and Race in American History" by Kathryn Gin Lum  "The Origin of Others (The Charles Eliot Norton Lectures)" by Toni Morrison  Similar NSE episodes:  Willie James Jennings: The Christian Imagination  Eugene Cho Karen Korematsu: Fear, Home and the Asian-American Experience    PDF of Lee's Interview Notes  Transcript of Abridged Interview    Want more NSE? JOIN NSE+ Today! Our subscriber only community with bonus episodes designed specifically to help you live a good life, ad-free listening, and discounts on live shows  Subscribe to episodes: Apple | Spotify | Amazon | Google | YouTubeFollow Us: Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | YouTubeFollow Lee: Instagram | TwitterJoin our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com  See Privacy Policy: Privacy Policy  Amazon Affiliate Disclosure: Tokens Media, LLC is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

When is the last time you heard the word “heathen”? The word was originally used to delineate between European Christians who tended to be in urban centers and pagans in rural areas.   “Heathen exists in the mind of the person doing the labeling, right? It's a label that one people foists onto another.”  Our guest today, Kathryn Gin Lum, walks us through the history of the term heathen and how it has utterly shaped the world. We discuss her book Heathen: Religion and Race in American History. The idea behind the term was wielded as a weapon to justify colonization and enslavement, and though the term has fallen out of use, she says the mental map of the world it has created has not.  Show Notes  Resources mentioned this episode:  "Heathen: Religion and Race in American History" by Kathryn Gin Lum  "The Origin of Others (The Charles Eliot Norton Lectures)" by Toni Morrison  Similar NSE episodes:  Willie James Jennings: The Christian Imagination  Eugene Cho and Karen Korematsu: Fear, Home and the Asian-American Experience    PDF of Lee's Interview Notes  Transcription Link    Want more NSE? JOIN NSE+ Today! Our subscriber only community with bonus episodes designed specifically to help you live a good life, ad-free listening, and discounts on live shows  Subscribe to episodes: Apple | Spotify | Amazon | Google | YouTubeFollow Us: Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | YouTubeFollow Lee: Instagram | TwitterJoin our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com  See Privacy Policy: Privacy Policy  Amazon Affiliate Disclosure: Tokens Media, LLC is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Tim Shriver.  On social media and the news, the narrative told about humanity is often one of violence, division, and dehumanization. But is that really who we are?  Tim Shriver, best-selling author and chairman of the Special Olympics, doesn’t think so. “My view,” he says, “is that the versions of our lives that most of us lead most days are much more hopeful.”  As the nephew of John F. Kennedy, Tim has known great privilege and great grief. As an educator and social worker, he has seen the countless ways that humans defy stereotypes and give grace and hope to one another. In this episode, he talks about why his life and career have led him to the conclusion that the key to a happy life is to live it for the flourishing of others.  Show Notes  Resources mentioned this episode:  "Fully Alive: Discovering What Matters Most" by Tim Shriver  Tim's Website  "Need a Lift?" Podcast  Similar NSE episodes:  Greg Boyle: Cherished Belonging  Martin Sheen: Actor and Activist  Ben Cohen: Peace, Justice, Ice Cream    PDF of Lee's Interview Notes  Transcript of Abridged Episode    Want more NSE? JOIN NSE+ Today! Our subscriber only community with bonus episodes designed specifically to help you live a good life, ad-free listening, and discounts on live shows  Subscribe to episodes: Apple | Spotify | Amazon | Google | YouTubeFollow Us: Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | YouTubeFollow Lee: Instagram | TwitterJoin our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com  See Privacy Policy: Privacy Policy  Amazon Affiliate Disclosure: Tokens Media, LLC is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

On social media and the news, the narrative told about humanity is often one of violence, division, and dehumanization. But is that really who we are?  Tim Shriver, best-selling author and chairman of the Special Olympics, doesn’t think so. “My view,” he says, “is that the versions of our lives that most of us lead most days are much more hopeful.”  As the nephew of John F. Kennedy, Tim has known great privilege and great grief. As an educator and social worker, he has seen the countless ways that humans defy stereotypes and give grace and hope to one another. In this episode, he talks about why his life and career have led him to the conclusion that the key to a happy life is to live it for the flourishing of others.  Show Notes  Resources mentioned this episode:  "Fully Alive: Discovering What Matters Most" by Tim Shriver  Tim's Website  "Need a Lift?" Podcast  Similar NSE episodes:  Greg Boyle: Cherished Belonging  Martin Sheen: Actor and Activist  Ben Cohen: Peace, Justice, Ice Cream    PDF of Lee's Interview Notes  Transcription Link    Want more NSE? JOIN NSE+ Today! Our subscriber only community with bonus episodes designed specifically to help you live a good life, ad-free listening, and discounts on live shows  Subscribe to episodes: Apple | Spotify | Amazon | Google | YouTubeFollow Us: Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | YouTubeFollow Lee: Instagram | TwitterJoin our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com  See Privacy Policy: Privacy Policy  Amazon Affiliate Disclosure: Tokens Media, LLC is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Philip Mangano.  Is homelessness a problem that can be solved?  Historically, efforts made to address homelessness in the US have taken a symptom-management approach, focusing on soup kitchens, clothing drives, and medical programs. But these well-intentioned efforts often have a paradoxical effect: over time, they end up serving more and more homeless people, rather than reducing the number of those unhoused.  In this episode, Philip Mangano describes his longtime effort to approach homelessness in a new way. “I took the abolitionist frame,” he says of his renowned Housing-First Initiative. “People were homeless, so the antidote must be a place to live.”  Show Notes  Resources mentioned this episode:  "The Tipping Point" by Malcolm Gladwell  "Good to Great" by Jim Collins  "The Innovator’s Dilemma" by Clayton Christensen  Similar NSE episodes:  Malcolm Gladwell: Becoming Malcolm  Charlie Strobel: Remembering a Life Well Lived  Musa al-Gharbi: We Have Never Been Woke  James Lawson: The Architect of the United States Civil Rights Movement    PDF of Lee's Interview Notes  Transcript of Abridged Episode    Want more NSE? JOIN NSE+ Today! Our subscriber only community with bonus episodes designed specifically to help you live a good life, ad-free listening, and discounts on live shows  Subscribe to episodes: Apple | Spotify | Amazon | Google | YouTubeFollow Us: Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | YouTubeFollow Lee: Instagram | TwitterJoin our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com  See Privacy Policy: Privacy Policy  Amazon Affiliate Disclosure: Tokens Media, LLC is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Is homelessness a problem that can be solved?  Historically, efforts made to address homelessness in the US have taken a symptom-management approach, focusing on soup kitchens, clothing drives, and medical programs. But these well-intentioned efforts often have a paradoxical effect: over time, they end up serving more and more homeless people, rather than reducing the number of those unhoused.  In this episode, Philip Mangano describes his longtime effort to approach homelessness in a new way. “I took the abolitionist frame,” he says of his renowned Housing-First Initiative. “People were homeless, so the antidote must be a place to live.”  Show Notes  Resources mentioned this episode:  "The Tipping Point" by Malcolm Gladwell  "Good to Great" by Jim Collins  "The Innovator’s Dilemma" by Clayton Christensen  Similar NSE episodes:  Malcolm Gladwell: Becoming Malcolm  Charlie Strobel: Remembering a Life Well Lived  Musa al-Gharbi: We Have Never Been Woke  James Lawson: The Architect of the United States Civil Rights Movement    PDF of Lee's Interview Notes  Transcription Link    Want more NSE? JOIN NSE+ Today! Our subscriber only community with bonus episodes designed specifically to help you live a good life, ad-free listening, and discounts on live shows  Subscribe to episodes: Apple | Spotify | Amazon | Google | YouTubeFollow Us: Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | YouTubeFollow Lee: Instagram | TwitterJoin our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com  See Privacy Policy: Privacy Policy  Amazon Affiliate Disclosure: Tokens Media, LLC is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Christian Wiman.  “Suffering, I think, catalyzes an intimacy that couldn't happen otherwise.”  Christian Wiman, renowned poet and teacher at Yale Divinity School, does not say these words flippantly. Two decades ago, he was diagnosed with a rare form of cancer and given a life expectancy of five years. He has lived the past twenty years in the shadow of death and the grip of despair.  In this episode, while discussing his recent memoir “Zero at the Bone: Fifty Entries Against Despair,” Christian explores faith, doubt, joy, and sorrow in the way only a great poet can, taking the stuff of life - the mundane, confusing, chaotic, and tragic - and making meaning out of it.  Show Notes  Resources mentioned this episode: "Zero at the Bone" by Christian Wiman "My Bright Abyss" by Christian Wiman  Similar NSE episodes:  Christian Wiman: The Opposite of Faith is Certainty  Pádraig Ó Tuama: A Poet’s Work in Peace and Reconciliation  Clay Hobbs: The Wisdom of Numbering Your Days  Angela Williams Gorrell and Miroslav Volf: On Joy and Sorrow    Transcript of Abridged Episode   Want more NSE? JOIN NSE+ Today! Our subscriber only community with bonus episodes designed specifically to help you live a good life, ad-free listening, and discounts on live shows  Subscribe to episodes: Apple | Spotify | Amazon | Google | YouTubeFollow Us: Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | YouTubeFollow Lee: Instagram | TwitterJoin our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com  See Privacy Policy: Privacy Policy  Amazon Affiliate Disclosure: Tokens Media, LLC is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

“Suffering, I think, catalyzes an intimacy that couldn't happen otherwise.”  Christian Wiman, renowned poet and teacher at Yale Divinity School, does not say these words flippantly. Two decades ago, he was diagnosed with a rare form of cancer and given a life expectancy of five years. He has lived the past twenty years in the shadow of death and the grip of despair.  In this episode, while discussing his recent memoir “Zero at the Bone: Fifty Entries Against Despair,” Christian explores faith, doubt, joy, and sorrow in the way only a great poet can, taking the stuff of life - the mundane, confusing, chaotic, and tragic - and making meaning out of it.  Show Notes  Resources mentioned this episode: "Zero at the Bone" by Christian Wiman "My Bright Abyss" by Christian Wiman  Similar NSE episodes:  Christian Wiman: The Opposite of Faith is Certainty  Pádraig Ó Tuama: A Poet’s Work in Peace and Reconciliation  Clay Hobbs: The Wisdom of Numbering Your Days  Angela Williams Gorrell and Miroslav Volf: On Joy and Sorrow    Transcription Link   Want more NSE? JOIN NSE+ Today! Our subscriber only community with bonus episodes designed specifically to help you live a good life, ad-free listening, and discounts on live shows  Subscribe to episodes: Apple | Spotify | Amazon | Google | YouTubeFollow Us: Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | YouTubeFollow Lee: Instagram | TwitterJoin our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com  See Privacy Policy: Privacy Policy  Amazon Affiliate Disclosure: Tokens Media, LLC is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Russell Moore and David French.  For the last decade of American political discourse, both the Left and the Right have each been developing fierce tribalism, in which it is increasingly costly for one to wage critique at one’s own group. Threats of canceling, doxing, and worse are everyday occurrences for those who speak out of step with their party.  Russell Moore and David French have been in the dangerous business of insider critique for a while. As conservative Christians, their criticism of the Right (specifically of Donald Trump) has cost them friends, careers, and safety.  In this episode, they discuss why they continue to do the work they do, offering insight on the landscape of politics and religion, and how we might re-frame the way we do discourse.  Show Notes  Resources mentioned this episode:  The After Party  "The After Party: Toward Better Christian Politics"  Similar NSE episodes:  Tim Alberta: The Kingdom, the Power, and the Glory  Kristin Du Mez Sits with David French  David French: Conservatism Without Trumpism  Russell Moore: Against, and For, the Tribe    PDF of Lee’s Interview Notes  Transcript of Abridged Episode   Want more NSE? JOIN NSE+ Today! Our subscriber only community with bonus episodes designed specifically to help you live a good life, ad-free listening, and discounts on live shows  Subscribe to episodes: Apple | Spotify | Amazon | Google | YouTubeFollow Us: Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | YouTubeFollow Lee: Instagram | TwitterJoin our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com  See Privacy Policy: Privacy Policy  Amazon Affiliate Disclosure: Tokens Media, LLC is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

For the last decade of American political discourse, both the Left and the Right have each been developing fierce tribalism, in which it is increasingly costly for one to wage critique at one’s own group. Threats of canceling, doxing, and worse are everyday occurrences for those who speak out of step with their party.  Russell Moore and David French have been in the dangerous business of insider critique for a while. As conservative Christians, their criticism of the Right (specifically of Donald Trump) has cost them friends, careers, and safety.  In this episode, they discuss why they continue to do the work they do, offering insight on the landscape of politics and religion, and how we might re-frame the way we do discourse.  Show Notes  Resources mentioned this episode:  The After Party  "The After Party: Toward Better Christian Politics"  Similar NSE episodes:  Tim Alberta: The Kingdom, the Power, and the Glory  Kristin Du Mez Sits with David French  David French: Conservatism Without Trumpism  Russell Moore: Against, and For, the Tribe    PDF of Lee’s Interview Notes  Transcription Link   Want more NSE? JOIN NSE+ Today! Our subscriber only community with bonus episodes designed specifically to help you live a good life, ad-free listening, and discounts on live shows  Subscribe to episodes: Apple | Spotify | Amazon | Google | YouTube Follow Us: Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | YouTube Follow Lee: Instagram | Twitter Join our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com  See Privacy Policy: Privacy Policy  Amazon Affiliate Disclosure: Tokens Media, LLC is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Musa al-Gharbi.   Society has never been more focused on equality and diversity… right?  The last few decades have been marked by a drastic increase in what often gets labeled “social justice.” Companies and individuals perpetually take very public vows to defend progressive values and denounce all kinds of injustice. But somehow, in spite of all this, social and economic inequalities have only worsened. How is this possible?  “The fundamental tension,” argues Musa al-Gharbi, “is that while a lot of us are committed to social justice, we also really want to be elites.” Musa makes the case that an excess of public symbolic gestures has created a backwards world where justice is preached but rarely done, offering a sharp critique of the ways many of us, on all sides of politics and culture, have used social justice as a subtle way to serve ourselves.  Show Notes  Resources:  "We Have Never Been Woke" by Musa al-Gharbi  Similar NSE episodes:  Eboo Patel: Field Notes for Diverse Democracy  Patrick Deneen: Why Liberalism Failed  Ben Cohen and Jay Jakub: Ben and Jerry’s and a Better Capitalism  Christian Miller: We’re Not as Good (or Bad) as We Think We Are  PDF of Lee’s Interview Notes  Transcript of Abridged Episode  Want more NSE? JOIN NSE+ Today! Our subscriber only community with bonus episodes designed specifically to help you live a good life, ad-free listening, and discounts on live shows  Subscribe to episodes: Apple | Spotify | Amazon | Google | YouTubeFollow Us: Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | YouTubeFollow Lee: Instagram | TwitterJoin our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com  See Privacy Policy: Privacy Policy  Amazon Affiliate Disclosure: Tokens Media, LLC is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

***Vote for us to win a Signal Award. Society has never been more focused on equality and diversity… right?  The last few decades have been marked by a drastic increase in what often gets labeled “social justice.” Companies and individuals perpetually take very public vows to defend progressive values and denounce all kinds of injustice. But somehow, in spite of all this, social and economic inequalities have only worsened. How is this possible?  “The fundamental tension,” argues Musa al-Gharbi, “is that while a lot of us are committed to social justice, we also really want to be elites.” Musa makes the case that an excess of public symbolic gestures has created a backwards world where justice is preached but rarely done, offering a sharp critique of the ways many of us, on all sides of politics and culture, have used social justice as a subtle way to serve ourselves.  Show Notes  Resources mentioned:  "We Have Never Been Woke" by Musa al-Gharbi  Similar NSE episodes:  Eboo Patel: Field Notes for Diverse Democracy  Patrick Deneen: Why Liberalism Failed  Ben Cohen and Jay Jakub: Ben and Jerry’s and a Better Capitalism  Christian Miller: We’re Not as Good (or Bad) as We Think We Are  PDF of Lee’s Interview Notes  Transcription Link  Want more NSE? JOIN NSE+ Today! Our subscriber only community with bonus episodes designed specifically to help you live a good life, ad-free listening, and discounts on live shows  Subscribe to episodes: Apple | Spotify | Amazon | Google | YouTubeFollow Us: Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | YouTubeFollow Lee: Instagram | TwitterJoin our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com  See Privacy Policy: Privacy Policy  Amazon Affiliate Disclosure: Tokens Media, LLC is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Carissa Carter & Scott Doorley. We live in an era of runaway design, where tech that seemed to solve our problems has gone on to cause unintended consequences. Think about social media’s effect on our collective mental health. Or the once miraculous material known as plastic becoming an environmental hazard. But we can’t predict the future, so what can we do? In this episode, designers from Stanford’s d.school, Carissa Carter & Scott Doorley, discuss their book “Assembling Tomorrow,” which thinks uniquely about design and offers ideas and practices for building and engaging with technology in a way that helps us flourish. Show Notes Resources: "Assembling Tomorrow" by Carissa Carter and Scott Doorley "The Technological Society" by Jacques Ellul Similar NSE episodes: Anna Lembke and John Mark Comer: The Price of the Pursuit of Pleasure Meghan O’Gieblyn: Will AI Destroy Humanity? David Brooks: Can We Save Society by Knowing Each Other? PDF of Lee’s Interview Notes Transcript of Abridged Episode Want more NSE? JOIN NSE+ Today! Our subscriber only community with bonus episodes designed specifically to help you live a good life, ad-free listening, and discounts on live shows Subscribe to episodes: Apple | Spotify | Amazon | Google | YouTubeFollow Us: Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | YouTubeFollow Lee: Instagram | TwitterJoin our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com See Privacy Policy: Privacy Policy Amazon Affiliate Disclosure: Tokens Media, LLC is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

We live in an era of runaway design, where tech that once seemed to solve all of our problems has gone on to cause unintended consequences. Think about social media’s effect on our collective mental health. Or the once miraculous material known as plastic becoming an environmental hazard. But we can’t predict the future, so what can we do?  In this episode, designers from Stanford’s d.school, Carissa Carter and Scott Doorley, discuss their book “Assembling Tomorrow,” which thinks quite uniquely about design and offers ideas and practices for building and engaging with technology in a way that helps us flourish.  Show Notes  Resources mentioned this episode:  "Assembling Tomorrow" by Carissa Carter and Scott Doorley  "The Technological Society" by Jacques Ellul  Similar No Small Endeavor episodes:  Anna Lembke and John Mark Comer: The Price of the Pursuit of Pleasure  Meghan O’Gieblyn: Will AI Destroy Humanity?  David Brooks: Can We Save Society by Knowing Each Other?  PDF of Lee’s Interview Notes  Transcription Link Want more NSE? JOIN NSE+ Today! Our subscriber only community with bonus episodes designed specifically to help you live a good life, ad-free listening, and discounts on live shows Subscribe to episodes: Apple | Spotify | Amazon | YouTubeFollow Us: Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | YouTubeFollow Lee: Instagram | TwitterJoin our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com See Privacy Policy: Privacy Policy Amazon Affiliate Disclosure: Tokens Media, LLC is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Greg Boyle.  How do you become truly loving? Father Greg Boyle teaches us to go to the margins. “You don't go to the margins to make a difference. You go so the folks at the margins make you different.”  In the 80s and 90s, the city of Los Angeles was ravaged by what is now known as the "decade of death," a period of unprecedented gang violence, peaking at 1000 killings in 1992 alone. It was in the midst of this that Greg Boyle became pastor of the poorest Catholic parish in the city, in order to live and work amongst gang members.  He started Homeboy Industries, now the largest gang-member rehabilitation program in the world. In this episode, he tells some breathtaking stories, offering wisdom from a life lived in community with those who society neglects.  Notes Resources: "Cherished Belonging" by Greg Boyle "Tattoos on the Heart" by Greg Boyle "Barking to the Choir" by Greg Boyle Homeboy Industries  Similar NSE episodes:  John Dear: Taking the Beatitudes Seriously  Curt Thompson: The Power of Being Known  Pádraig Ó Tuama: The Facts of Life  Transcript JOIN NSE+ Today! Our subscriber only community with bonus episodes, ad-free listening, and discounts on live shows Subscribe to episodes: Apple | Spotify | Amazon | Google | YouTubeFollow Us: Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | YouTubeFollow Lee: Instagram | TwitterJoin our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com See Privacy Policy: Privacy Policy Amazon Affiliate Disclosure: Tokens Media, LLC is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

How do you become truly loving? Father Greg Boyle teaches us to go to the margins. “You don't go to the margins to make a difference. You go so the folks at the margins make you different.”  In the 80s and 90s, the city of Los Angeles was ravaged by what is now known as the "decade of death," a period of unprecedented gang violence, peaking at 1000 killings in 1992 alone. It was in the midst of this that Greg Boyle became pastor of the poorest Catholic parish in the city, in order to live and work amongst gang members.  He started Homeboy Industries, now the largest gang-member rehabilitation program in the world. In this episode, he tells some breathtaking stories, offering wisdom from a life lived in community with those who society neglects.  Show Notes  Resources mentioned this episode:  "Cherished Belonging" by Greg Boyle  "Tattoos on the Heart" by Greg Boyle  "Barking to the Choir" by Greg Boyle  Homeboy Industries  Similar No Small Endeavor episodes:  John Dear: Taking the Beatitudes Seriously  Curt Thompson: The Power of Being Known  Pádraig Ó Tuama: The Facts of Life  Transcription Link  JOIN NSE+ Today! Our subscriber only community with bonus episodes, ad-free listening, and discounts on live shows  Subscribe to episodes: Apple | Spotify | Amazon | Google | YouTube Follow Us: Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | YouTube Follow Lee: Instagram | Twitter Join our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com  See Privacy Policy: Privacy Policy  Amazon Affiliate Disclosure: Tokens Media, LLC is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Meghan O’Gieblyn. Will technology change what it means to be human? Thanks to the rise and implementation of Artificial Intelligence (AI), the common sci-fi trope of a machine-perpetuated apocalypse has taken on a new gravity in recent days. But is Chat GPT really going to rebel against humans, or even change things very much at all? “We're at the point where we do have technologies that are incredibly powerful,” says writer and commentator Meghan O’Gieblyn. “They're able to do things that they weren't programmed to do.” In this episode, Meghan discusses AI in great detail, and lays out what she believes to be the social, political, ethical, and even theological issues at stake as humanity learns to live with new technology. Show Notes Resources: Meghan’s Website 'God, Human, Animal, Machine' by Meghan O’Gieblyn Similar NSE Episodes: The Price of the Pursuit of Pleasure: Anna Lembke The Most Polarized Issue in the United States: Katharine Hayhoe Beyond Fake News: Justin McBrayer PDF of Lee's Interview Notes Transcript of Abridged Episode JOIN NSE+ Today! Our subscriber only community with bonus episodes, ad-free listening, and discounts on live shows Subscribe to episodes: Apple | Spotify | Amazon | Google | YouTube Follow Us: Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | YouTube Follow Lee: Instagram | Twitter Join our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com See Privacy Policy: Privacy Policy Amazon Affiliate Disclosure: Tokens Media, LLC is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Will technology change what it means to be human? Thanks to the rise and implementation of Artificial Intelligence (AI), the common sci-fi trope of a machine-perpetuated apocalypse has taken on a new gravity in recent days. But is Chat GPT really going to rebel against humans, or even change things very much at all? “We're at the point where we do have technologies that are incredibly powerful,” says writer and commentator Meghan O’Gieblyn. “They're able to do things that they weren't programmed to do.” In this episode, Meghan discusses AI in great detail, and lays out what she believes to be the social, political, ethical, and even theological issues at stake as humanity learns to live with new technology. Show Notes Resources mentioned this episode: Meghan’s Website 'God, Human, Animal, Machine' by Meghan O’Gieblyn Similar No Small Endeavor episodes: The Price of the Pursuit of Pleasure: Anna Lembke The Most Polarized Issue in the United States: Katharine Hayhoe Beyond Fake News: Justin McBrayer PDF of Lee's Interview Notes Transcription Link JOIN NSE+ Today! Our subscriber only community with bonus episodes, ad-free listening, and discounts on live shows Subscribe to episodes: Apple | Spotify | Amazon | Google | YouTubeFollow Us: Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | YouTubeFollow Lee: Instagram | TwitterJoin our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com See Privacy Policy: Privacy Policy Amazon Affiliate Disclosure: Tokens Media, LLC is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Ayana Elizabeth Johnson. How can you respond to climate change with joy? Those two words—climate change—can fill us with a sense of dread, anxiety, and doom. Those advocating action are often fueled by a sense of breakneck urgency. But for many, such an outlook isn’t motivating. It’s paralyzing. But what if there was another way filled with joy and satisfaction? “This is the work of our lifetime,” says Ayana Elizabeth Johnson, “so why don't we find ways to make it delightful?” In this episode, she explains why the climate crisis is no less dire than the news makes it seem, but why climate activism must be done with hope and joy to be sustainable. Show Notes Resources mentioned this episode: "What If We Get It Right" by Ayana Elizabeth Johnson  GetItRight.Earth Similar No Small Endeavor episodes: Debra Reinstra: Healing the Earth Bill McKibben: The Flag, the Cross, and the Station Wagon Katharine Hayhoe: The Most Polarized Issue in the United States PDF of Lee’s Interview Notes Transcript of Abridged Episode JOIN NSE+ Today! Our subscriber only community with bonus episodes, ad-free listening, and discounts on live shows Subscribe to episodes: Apple | Spotify | Amazon | Google | YouTubeFollow Us: Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | YouTubeFollow Lee: Instagram | TwitterJoin our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com See Privacy Policy: Privacy Policy Amazon Affiliate Disclosure: Tokens Media, LLC is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices